Do you have adblock enabled?
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Globe and Mail)   "You can't destroy a community like this. My heart goes out to kids with autism. But no one told me they'd be leaving the house"   (theglobeandmail.com) divider line 62
    More: Dumbass, Doug Ford, implements  
•       •       •

12450 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 May 2014 at 1:07 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


Archived thread
2014-05-18 12:36:00 PM  
9 votes:
It's a little more complicated than that,  subby.

I watched the neighbourhood I grew up in completely changed by a "multi-treatment facility".  It was a quiet place, people were nice, we kids could play outside, nobody got broken in on... nice neighbourhood.  Very suburban.  Then, we got a group home.  What can I say - mentally ill teenagers act out.  Within 3 months, there were break-ins, cars keyed, fights in the alleyway, teenage kids on "free time" terrorizing the kids from the neighbourhood, cops being called day and night, ambulances pulling up day and night... it did ruin the neighbourhood.  The first argument from the workers was that everyone were just prejudiced against the mentally ill, and no one could prove it was "their" kids doing that stuff.  So some neighbours got security cameras and caught the little bastards red-handed.  Then the tune changed to "need for tolerance and understanding".  But it's hard to be tolerant when your home has lost thousands in value and your family no longer feel safe.  And even if the kid got sent to juvie, another one came in.  The behaviours didn't change.

So, yes - if I'd spent 30 years paying off a mortgage on a house in a nice neighbourhood, and those kinds of behaviours started happening because a group home came in, I'd be pissed off, too.

That said, there is a need for better mental health services, especially for juveniles.  I'd like to see a tiered approach by which more levels are added, so that the kids who are placed in group homes in nicer neighbourhoods are ready to function socially there.  But maybe we should concentrate on actually offering mental health services first.
2014-05-18 12:54:33 PM  
6 votes:

Benevolent Misanthrope: It's a little more complicated than that,  subby.

I watched the neighbourhood I grew up in completely changed by a "multi-treatment facility".  It was a quiet place, people were nice, we kids could play outside, nobody got broken in on... nice neighbourhood.  Very suburban.  Then, we got a group home.  What can I say - mentally ill teenagers act out.  Within 3 months, there were break-ins, cars keyed, fights in the alleyway, teenage kids on "free time" terrorizing the kids from the neighbourhood, cops being called day and night, ambulances pulling up day and night... it did ruin the neighbourhood.  The first argument from the workers was that everyone were just prejudiced against the mentally ill, and no one could prove it was "their" kids doing that stuff.  So some neighbours got security cameras and caught the little bastards red-handed.  Then the tune changed to "need for tolerance and understanding".  But it's hard to be tolerant when your home has lost thousands in value and your family no longer feel safe.  And even if the kid got sent to juvie, another one came in.  The behaviours didn't change.

So, yes - if I'd spent 30 years paying off a mortgage on a house in a nice neighbourhood, and those kinds of behaviours started happening because a group home came in, I'd be pissed off, too.

That said, there is a need for better mental health services, especially for juveniles.  I'd like to see a tiered approach by which more levels are added, so that the kids who are placed in group homes in nicer neighbourhoods are ready to function socially there.  But maybe we should concentrate on actually offering mental health services first.


But the bad ones can go to the bad neighborhoods freely? NIMBY is crap. It doesn't matter location, it obviously matters what treatment and services these kids are getting. Sounds like they need more of both, and better supervision.
2014-05-18 02:02:50 PM  
4 votes:

moeburn: I thought we were talking about a house for 5 autistic kids, not a group home for troubled teens?


Ever been attacked by an autistic kid? My friends kid is autistic and pretty okay most of the time but one time when the mom was visiting he went from zero the feral in about two seconds. Full on primate biting, scratching, feral rage. He also got thrown out of the local school's special ed program when he bit one of the handlers so hard the woman had to go to the hospital for stitches.

They're not all Rain Man.
2014-05-18 02:01:43 PM  
4 votes:
You know what I don't want in my neighbourhood? Violent, racist, drunk-driving crackheads. Sadly, I live in Toronto.
2014-05-18 01:50:01 PM  
4 votes:

Benevolent Misanthrope: It's a little more complicated than that,  subby.

I watched the neighbourhood I grew up in completely changed by a "multi-treatment facility".  It was a quiet place, people were nice, we kids could play outside, nobody got broken in on... nice neighbourhood.  Very suburban.  Then, we got a group home.  What can I say - mentally ill teenagers act out.  Within 3 months, there were break-ins, cars keyed, fights in the alleyway, teenage kids on "free time" terrorizing the kids from the neighbourhood, cops being called day and night, ambulances pulling up day and night... it did ruin the neighbourhood.  The first argument from the workers was that everyone were just prejudiced against the mentally ill, and no one could prove it was "their" kids doing that stuff.  So some neighbours got security cameras and caught the little bastards red-handed.  Then the tune changed to "need for tolerance and understanding".  But it's hard to be tolerant when your home has lost thousands in value and your family no longer feel safe.  And even if the kid got sent to juvie, another one came in.  The behaviours didn't change.

So, yes - if I'd spent 30 years paying off a mortgage on a house in a nice neighbourhood, and those kinds of behaviours started happening because a group home came in, I'd be pissed off, too.

That said, there is a need for better mental health services, especially for juveniles.  I'd like to see a tiered approach by which more levels are added, so that the kids who are placed in group homes in nicer neighbourhoods are ready to function socially there.  But maybe we should concentrate on actually offering mental health services first.


I thought we were talking about a house for 5 autistic kids, not a group home for troubled teens?
2014-05-18 01:26:22 PM  
4 votes:
TV's Vinnie:

This story smells a lot like Reagan's "Welfare Queen" bullsh*t.

I suppose you wouldn't be happy until all those kids were sent off to leper colonies.


Holy shiat.  Someone lays out a completely rational argument about this issue and this is your response?

Not every kid with developmental issues is sweet and nice as they are portrayed on TV and internet glurge stories.  Some of these kids have serious, deep-rooted problems.  He is absolutely on the money that more mental health care is needed in North America.
2014-05-18 01:21:27 PM  
4 votes:

Benevolent Misanthrope: It's a little more complicated than that,  subby.

I watched the neighbourhood I grew up in completely changed by a "multi-treatment facility".  It was a quiet place, people were nice, we kids could play outside, nobody got broken in on... nice neighbourhood.  Very suburban.  Then, we got a group home.  What can I say - mentally ill teenagers act out.  Within 3 months, there were break-ins, cars keyed, fights in the alleyway, teenage kids on "free time" terrorizing the kids from the neighbourhood, cops being called day and night, ambulances pulling up day and night... it did ruin the neighbourhood.  The first argument from the workers was that everyone were just prejudiced against the mentally ill, and no one could prove it was "their" kids doing that stuff.  So some neighbours got security cameras and caught the little bastards red-handed.  Then the tune changed to "need for tolerance and understanding".  But it's hard to be tolerant when your home has lost thousands in value and your family no longer feel safe.  And even if the kid got sent to juvie, another one came in.  The behaviours didn't change.

So, yes - if I'd spent 30 years paying off a mortgage on a house in a nice neighbourhood, and those kinds of behaviours started happening because a group home came in, I'd be pissed off, too.

That said, there is a need for better mental health services, especially for juveniles.  I'd like to see a tiered approach by which more levels are added, so that the kids who are placed in group homes in nicer neighbourhoods are ready to function socially there.  But maybe we should concentrate on actually offering mental health services first.


This story smells a lot like Reagan's "Welfare Queen" bullsh*t.

I suppose you wouldn't be happy until all those kids were sent off to leper colonies.
2014-05-18 01:16:35 PM  
4 votes:
You know the phrase "waste of skin" gets tossed around a lot these days, but when it comes to the Ford clan I don't think there is a single redeemable one of them.
2014-05-18 09:51:27 PM  
3 votes:

Big_Doofus: This is fark where very few people own homes or have any idea what things like this will do to property values. You are going to get roasted for not being "tolerant" enough. But don't feel bad because the crowd on here that comes out to beat on you won't ever own property anyway, so you're far ahead of them f ...


Yes, this is Fark, where people who are so ignorant and/or have led lives so sheltered that they cannot tell the difference between autistic teenagers, mentally ill teenagers and juvenile sex offenders conflate the groups in sanctimonious posts unsullied by any actual facts.

You, and he, and everyone else on this thread doing that, and Doug Ford, are idiots.

I don't believe any of you have any evidence whatsoever of a correlation between autism group homes and declining property values.  I certainly haven't observed any in my little nook of suburbia.  If you have any, post it or STFU.

/owns property
2014-05-18 02:58:35 PM  
3 votes:

Eirik: http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1970_2019USb_15s2 li 111mcn_40t_40_Welfare_Spending_Chart#view

Hey, you're right.  According to this chart of federal welfare spending I found over the last 40 years, Welfare spending was slashed from $95.4 billion in 1980 (the last year of the Carter Administration) down to a paltry $146.69 in 1988.

Must be the new math.


Time value of money and per capita spending, HOW DOES IT WORK.
2014-05-18 02:00:42 PM  
3 votes:

Benevolent Misanthrope: It's a little more complicated than that,  subby.

I watched the neighbourhood I grew up in completely changed by a "multi-treatment facility".  It was a quiet place, people were nice, we kids could play outside, nobody got broken in on... nice neighbourhood.  Very suburban.  Then, we got a group home.  What can I say - mentally ill teenagers act out.  Within 3 months, there were break-ins, cars keyed, fights in the alleyway, teenage kids on "free time" terrorizing the kids from the neighbourhood, cops being called day and night, ambulances pulling up day and night... it did ruin the neighbourhood.  The first argument from the workers was that everyone were just prejudiced against the mentally ill, and no one could prove it was "their" kids doing that stuff.  So some neighbours got security cameras and caught the little bastards red-handed.  Then the tune changed to "need for tolerance and understanding".  But it's hard to be tolerant when your home has lost thousands in value and your family no longer feel safe.  And even if the kid got sent to juvie, another one came in.  The behaviours didn't change.

So, yes - if I'd spent 30 years paying off a mortgage on a house in a nice neighbourhood, and those kinds of behaviours started happening because a group home came in, I'd be pissed off, too.

That said, there is a need for better mental health services, especially for juveniles.  I'd like to see a tiered approach by which more levels are added, so that the kids who are placed in group homes in nicer neighbourhoods are ready to function socially there.  But maybe we should concentrate on actually offering mental health services first.


The problem is, severely troubled kids who are non-violent end up getting treated the same way as the violent cases, who earn "free time" for good behavior, just want to go to the corner store to get a pop and candy bar and have to deal with being treated like crap by the community at large because of things they'd never do..


Then when the kid gets frustrated because even though they're trying, they still get treated like crap.. so they might start acting out on their own... yeah.


Our race really sucks at leaving one another the fark alone.
2014-05-18 01:48:55 PM  
3 votes:
I live two blocks from a homeless shelter. We receive maybe 3-5 sex offender notices per week. I'll trade you.
2014-05-18 01:43:03 PM  
3 votes:
It would be best for the ford bros if THEY were in a group home of some sort
2014-05-18 01:25:27 PM  
3 votes:

Fark like a Barsoomian: Ford is quoted as saying it was unacceptable to have emergency vehicles parked on the street outside the home

Ok well you can quote me saying the same thing. I can still remember every time I've seen that happen while I'm trying to sleep, and I'm sure it's unsettling if it happens during the day. Of course this is a bad idea.

I've never understood how NIMBY became a bad word.


Because it is. People want the benefits of modern infrastructure just as long as anything perceived as "negative" is "stuck where the poor/dark people are".

Oakville and Burlington are two of the Nimbiest of Nimby communities in Southern Ontario. Worse than GTA and Mississauga.
2014-05-18 01:18:37 PM  
3 votes:
WTF is so very wrong with that family? Defective chromazone? Gypsy curse?
2014-05-18 10:18:47 AM  
3 votes:

Marcus Aurelius: I had no idea that there were Canadians that were utterly horrible people without any redeeming qualities whatsoever.


I blame American 'Reality' TV.
(not really)

The whole family is ugly, but Doug Ford takes it to a whole new level.  Rob at least has a thin veneer of charm, Doug never considered that a social grace worth adopting.
2014-05-18 09:17:04 AM  
3 votes:
HEY DOUG.  NOW YOU KNOW HOW ROB'S NEIGHBOURS FEEL.

He just doubled down on CP24 about the property values going down $100k.
img.fark.net
What an asshat.
2014-05-18 11:12:23 PM  
2 votes:

Big_Doofus: Autistic Hiker: Big_Doofus: This is fark where very few people own homes or have any idea what things like this will do to property values. You are going to get roasted for not being "tolerant" enough. But don't feel bad because the crowd on here that comes out to beat on you won't ever own property anyway, so you're far ahead of them f ...

Yes, this is Fark, where people who are so ignorant and/or have led lives so sheltered that they cannot tell the difference between autistic teenagers, mentally ill teenagers and juvenile sex offenders conflate the groups in sanctimonious posts unsullied by any actual facts.

You, and he, and everyone else on this thread doing that, and Doug Ford, are idiots.

I don't believe any of you have any evidence whatsoever of a correlation between autism group homes and declining property values.  I certainly haven't observed any in my little nook of suburbia.  If you have any, post it or STFU.

/owns property

I don't know about autism group homes being a problem.  I was just referring to group homes in general that can sometimes be a problem. Not all group homes are bad, some work very well and are a vital link to helping people function in society.  Some don't work as well and can damage a neighborhood.  And no, I won't STFU just because someone like you wants to make this completely black and white.  There's plenty of grey in between.



In response to Benevolent Misanthrope's posting "...it's hard to be tolerant when your home has lost thousands in value...", you wrote, "This is fark where very few people own homes or have any idea what things like this will do to property values."  Neither of you know what you are talking about, and I am calling you on it.

I see that you have not posted any actual facts in response to that challenge.  I think this is because the facts do not support you, but just in case your Google is broken, here are some relatively recent roundups of studies by state agencies that may inform you on the matter:

http://www.nj.gov/humanservices/clients/disability/goodneighbors/fa q.h tml

"There is an overwhelming volume of evidence that homes for people with disabilities do not significantly impact property values."

http://mn.gov/mnddc/parallels2/pdf/80s/85/85-EGH-CSR.pdf

"The results support the notion that group homes do not adversely affect neighborhood property values."

Perhaps I overqualified my challenge in terms of autism alone, which was the focus of Doug Ford's remarks in TFA and to which, in response, Benevolent Misanthrope and many others have attempted the aforementioned conflation of other irrelevant groups.  No matter, you still haven't posted any evidence supporting what you now claim you were saying about 'group homes in general', and until you do, I'm gonna stick with 'you don't know what you are talking about' as my response.  Frankly, I'm starting to wonder whether you really do own property.
2014-05-18 08:58:55 PM  
2 votes:
As one of the people in the type of neighbourhood where these home are *usually* located, I can't feel too much sympathy for errm. Mr. Ford and his constituents. I guess our paying for our home in a less expensive (read less desirable) neighbourhood means that we are just not rich enough to avoid having *all* these facilities being placed in our part of town? We do have a number of group homes and halfway house facilities around here. We are also in the part of the city that is waaaayyyy above average in the per capita number of sex offenders.

That being said, I have experienced absolutely zero crime in the 3 years I have lived here in the 'hood. It was far worse in our slightly better neighbourhood in Toronto, where things were constantly stolen, broken into and so forth. Not here. Not with all the group homes and halfway houses and various other social service agencies. Weird that.
2014-05-18 05:15:09 PM  
2 votes:
I have worked with children and adults with both cognitive impairment and all sorts of mental health/developmental disorders for about 20 years now.  I am a special education teacher (severe disabilities) and work in group homes for adults with cognitive impairment.  As others have noted, some group homes are invisible in the community and some are well-known sources of entertainment (if counting emergency response vehicles roaring through your neighborhood is entertaining to you).  How successful a group home is depends on who is running it (are they in it for the residents or for the money?), who is staffing it (are they well-trained and competent to provide appropriate supports?), and who is living there (do they have all the supports they need in place to be successful? Do they even want to be there?).  I have seen people with some pretty severely maladaptive behaviors fit in beautifully into a community residence and I have seen some who just didn't.  Depends on the mix of people and the competence of those running the program.

Either way, a knee-jerk "Those people are going to destroy property values if the neighbors see them outside!!" is not helpful.

Once I figure out a way to get around those pesky "controlled substance" laws, I have a plan to market a Valium air spray--just a quick spritz and everyone gets nice and calm.  No needles, no pills, just peace and quiet.  Ahhhhhhhh......
2014-05-18 03:47:28 PM  
2 votes:

lindalouwho: THERE'S TWO OF THEM?!!

/Ford's, I mean


sure haven't: FFS THERE'S ANOTHER ONE!?!?


At the moment they are the only two in public life, although they are grooming their sister's kid Mikey...

There is another brother too, but he has the good sense to stick to the family business and keep the rest under his hat.  And I suppose dear old (dead) dad is largely to blame for the lot, with his dabbling in Provincial (think State level) politics for one term a while ago*

*The Premier at the time, Mike Harris, a proto tea bagger, reduced the number of ridings (to better align with the federal ridings) to the expense of Doug Sr.'s seat, making a point to not parachute him in elsewhere largely because he was too right wing...
2014-05-18 03:04:29 PM  
2 votes:

Eirik: TV's Vinnie: This story smells a lot like Reagan's "Welfare Queen" bullsh*t.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2013/12/lind a_ taylor_welfare_queen_ronald_reagan_made_her_a_notorious_american_villa in.html


Black woman in the ghetto games the welfare system: OMG WELFARE QUEEN! MOOCHERS! LEECHES! SHUT DOWN ALL WELFARE AND TOSS EVERYONE OUT! EVEN THE INNOCENT!!

Fat Rich White CEO games the stock market and makes billions: What a wonderful job creator you are. here, have some more tax cuts and a government subsidy.
2014-05-18 02:42:30 PM  
2 votes:
i've worked in several group homes, including one for retarded sex offenders. i don't think the neighbors knew about that part. some were perfectly accepted parts of the community, and never caused problems. however, on my first day at a new group home i forgot to lock the front door with my key when I came in, and as soon as I walked away a big, very engergetic, severely retarded guy bolted to the middle of the street. people were around gawking, and me and my coworker had to resort to wrapping him in a blanket so we could carry him inside.

i image that if potential homebuyers near there knew that that kind of thing happened in the area, they might want to pay less for their house than they might otherwise, and might be apprehensive about letting their children play outside.
2014-05-18 02:35:11 PM  
2 votes:

Eirik: TV's Vinnie: This story smells a lot like Reagan's "Welfare Queen" bullsh*t.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2013/12/lind a_ taylor_welfare_queen_ronald_reagan_made_her_a_notorious_american_villa in.html


So of course, the Reagan solution was "cut off welfare for EVERYBODY, even the innocent!".
2014-05-18 02:31:58 PM  
2 votes:

Benevolent Misanthrope: It's a little more complicated than that,  subby.

I watched the neighbourhood I grew up in completely changed by a "multi-treatment facility".  It was a quiet place, people were nice, we kids could play outside, nobody got broken in on... nice neighbourhood.  Very suburban.  Then, we got a group home.  What can I say - mentally ill teenagers act out.  Within 3 months, there were break-ins, cars keyed, fights in the alleyway, teenage kids on "free time" terrorizing the kids from the neighbourhood, cops being called day and night, ambulances pulling up day and night... it did ruin the neighbourhood.  The first argument from the workers was that everyone were just prejudiced against the mentally ill, and no one could prove it was "their" kids doing that stuff.  So some neighbours got security cameras and caught the little bastards red-handed.  Then the tune changed to "need for tolerance and understanding".  But it's hard to be tolerant when your home has lost thousands in value and your family no longer feel safe.  And even if the kid got sent to juvie, another one came in.  The behaviours didn't change.

So, yes - if I'd spent 30 years paying off a mortgage on a house in a nice neighbourhood, and those kinds of behaviours started happening because a group home came in, I'd be pissed off, too.

That said, there is a need for better mental health services, especially for juveniles.  I'd like to see a tiered approach by which more levels are added, so that the kids who are placed in group homes in nicer neighbourhoods are ready to function socially there.  But maybe we should concentrate on actually offering mental health services first.



And yet, the group home that was 5 houses down the block from me was peaceful and calm while I was growing up. I've been around for 40 years, and there's never been any trouble with that house or in the neighborhood.

Almost as if it's not the kids that are the problem, but the quality of care that causes situations like that.
2014-05-18 02:28:01 PM  
2 votes:

MattyFridays: TV's Vinnie:

This story smells a lot like Reagan's "Welfare Queen" bullsh*t.

I suppose you wouldn't be happy until all those kids were sent off to leper colonies.

Holy shiat.  Someone lays out a completely rational argument about this issue and this is your response?

Not every kid with developmental issues is sweet and nice as they are portrayed on TV and internet glurge stories.  Some of these kids have serious, deep-rooted problems.  He is absolutely on the money that more mental health care is needed in North America.


And by "more mental care", they mean "go back to warehousing em all into nuthouses and leave them to rot".
2014-05-18 02:23:51 PM  
2 votes:

hardinparamedic: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Ever been attacked by an autistic kid? My friends kid is autistic and pretty okay most of the time but one time when the mom was visiting he went from zero the feral in about two seconds. Full on primate biting, scratching, feral rage. He also got thrown out of the local school's special ed program when he bit one of the handlers so hard the woman had to go to the hospital for stitches.

I deal with Autistic children every day. A good deal of the ill and injured children I transport are autistic.

They are not as violent or as hard to handle as you claim they are.

/and there are drugs for that.


You both have a point. When you're used to being around autistic or handicapped people, especially the same individuals, you become much more accustomed to behavioral cues. Having said that, I did almost lose an eye to an autistic adult because there was a line for snacks. But I still don't mind the residential assistance facility that moved in next to my parent's house. Of course they're adults with minimal behavior issues.
2014-05-18 01:55:47 PM  
2 votes:

SecretAgentWoman: But the bad ones can go to the bad neighborhoods freely? NIMBY is crap. It doesn't matter location, it obviously matters what treatment and services these kids are getting. Sounds like they need more of both, and better supervision.


Until it's your back yard.
2014-05-18 01:46:13 PM  
2 votes:
I know where these people live.  Ford lives on Edenbridge Dr, just south of Scarlett and Eglinton.  It is a very nice neighborhood, what with James Gardens and all, but there is not a single nice neighborhood in Toronto that is far enough bad neighborhoods for crime and break-ins to not be a problem.  For them, it is the Dixon/Islington area, which ironically is where the house that the first Ford crack video was shot.
2014-05-18 01:33:16 PM  
2 votes:
Are there no workhouses?
2014-05-18 01:24:51 PM  
2 votes:

Benevolent Misanthrope: It's a little more complicated than that,  subby.

I watched the neighbourhood I grew up in completely changed by a "multi-treatment facility".  It was a quiet place, people were nice, we kids could play outside, nobody got broken in on... nice neighbourhood.  Very suburban.  Then, we got a group home.  What can I say - mentally ill teenagers act out.  Within 3 months, there were break-ins, cars keyed, fights in the alleyway, teenage kids on "free time" terrorizing the kids from the neighbourhood, cops being called day and night, ambulances pulling up day and night... it did ruin the neighbourhood.  The first argument from the workers was that everyone were just prejudiced against the mentally ill, and no one could prove it was "their" kids doing that stuff.  So some neighbours got security cameras and caught the little bastards red-handed.  Then the tune changed to "need for tolerance and understanding".  But it's hard to be tolerant when your home has lost thousands in value and your family no longer feel safe.  And even if the kid got sent to juvie, another one came in.  The behaviours didn't change.

So, yes - if I'd spent 30 years paying off a mortgage on a house in a nice neighbourhood, and those kinds of behaviours started happening because a group home came in, I'd be pissed off, too.

That said, there is a need for better mental health services, especially for juveniles.  I'd like to see a tiered approach by which more levels are added, so that the kids who are placed in group homes in nicer neighbourhoods are ready to function socially there.  But maybe we should concentrate on actually offering mental health services first.


No, it's not.

I'm just going to leave this here, it is a Statement from a long time friend of the family that is also running for Mayor of Toronto...  (link goes to full statement.)
"Doug Ford's comments are deeply regrettable and from another age. For years, it was thought the best way to help people with disabilities, including those with autism, was to place them in large institutions - a kind of confinement away from the community...

Property values were as hurt by the ugly ass addition Doug put on his place as anything else in that neighbourhood. Period.  He lives on a nice-ish street but only just a few streets away is low income public housing with gangs and more drugs than his brother could ever consume.
2014-05-18 01:04:40 PM  
2 votes:

unyon: Marcus Aurelius: I had no idea that there were Canadians that were utterly horrible people without any redeeming qualities whatsoever.

Believe it.


Beliebe it.
2014-05-18 10:05:31 AM  
2 votes:

Marcus Aurelius: I had no idea that there were Canadians that were utterly horrible people without any redeeming qualities whatsoever.


Believe it.
2014-05-19 01:28:57 PM  
1 votes:

Loren: Yeah, just because they were victims doesn't mean they weren't also perpetrators.


Greylight: People with mental health issues are disproportionally the victims of crime rather than the perpetrators of crime.


Or maybe, just maybe, the big scary brush of "mental illness" is too broad to be useful for anything. Except as a rhetorical device, of course: it's great for playing to people's fears. Just not for actually doing anything.
2014-05-19 09:36:47 AM  
1 votes:

lindalouwho: THERE'S TWO OF THEM?!!

/Ford's, I mean


four of them. Don't forget big bro Randy and sister Kathy.
2014-05-18 11:44:24 PM  
1 votes:
For the Farkers living in fear of folks with mental health, chew on this fact:

People with mental health issues are disproportionally the victims of crime rather than the perpetrators of crime.
2014-05-18 11:41:22 PM  
1 votes:

Big_Doofus: "In our study  of seven group homes neighborhoods in DuPageCounty, Illinois, we find that properties which are proximate to group homes experience a decline in value following the announcement of a group home's pending establishment."


LOL, did you read the line in the abstract that directly precedes it?  "The majority of studies examining the impact of group homes on neighborhood property values have found that group homes do not adversely effect property values. "

Or pretty much anything else that came up in your Google search that contradicts your view?  As in, pretty much everything else?

You're not fooling anybody, kiddo.  Better luck next time.
2014-05-18 11:18:52 PM  
1 votes:

Big_Doofus: Also, you don't have any skin in the game or any biases, do you? How about you STFU?


Ya got me, obviously having an interest in matters of public policy that affect me and my family directly disqualifies me from any kind of rational discussion.  It's a good thing I own property or nobody would ever listen to me.
2014-05-18 10:14:53 PM  
1 votes:

Gyrfalcon: Even today, well-meaning civil rights advocates will INSIST that severely autistic, mentally ill, or profoundly retarded people (like your nephew) should be living in "least restrictive environments" by which they mean homes or unsecured facilities and they will do anything they can to block returning such individuals to more secure facilities.


As a parent of one of those profoundly developmentally disabled people, and a strong advocate for least restrictive environment (which has the added benefit of being the law where education is concerned, at least in the USA), I've had different experiences.  The advocates I talk to understand perfectly well that some individuals require more restrictive environments than others, and that a range of solutions is necessary.  There are, however, a lot of service providers and policy makers who don't, largely because the budget numbers work out better if you ignore the severe end of the bell curve.  So I think you're oversimplifying things here, and blaming the wrong entity.

In the autism world, if you want to understand the situation, follow the money.  Growth in autism diagnoses in the last decade has mostly been mild and moderate cases (fueled in part by over diagnosis - fact is that many of the mild cases are really just "Lego kids" who would not have been diagnosed as autistic a generation ago), where unrestrictive environments are appropriate.  It is therefore no accident that service providers concentrate on least restrictive solutions, and politicians glom onto them so they can appear effective with limited funds.  And I can't really blame them (that's politics), except that solutions appropriate to my kid seem always to be left out of consideration.

It should also be pointed out that many, if not most of the historic large-scale, restrictive residential facilities that are being replaced by group homes and home-based services (at least in my state) were basically patronage-driven cost sinks and/or snake pits and needed to be shut down on efficiency, anti-corruption and/or humanitarian grounds.
2014-05-18 09:50:29 PM  
1 votes:

addy2: sno man: addy2: hardinparamedic: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Ever been attacked by an autistic kid? My friends kid is autistic and pretty okay most of the time but one time when the mom was visiting he went from zero the feral in about two seconds. Full on primate biting, scratching, feral rage. He also got thrown out of the local school's special ed program when he bit one of the handlers so hard the woman had to go to the hospital for stitches.

I deal with Autistic children every day. A good deal of the ill and injured children I transport are autistic.

They are not as violent or as hard to handle as you claim they are.

/and there are drugs for that.

Bull. My nephew the 200 pound kid would attack his 110 pound mother. They had to constantly have men around just in case. They found the right drugs but it took years. My friend's son would fight at her and she'd come in with bruises. denial helps nobody.

Yes, your one nephew is EXACTLY like all the kids on the spectrum.

Point is it happens, genius. And needs to be considered.


Point is, you only hear about the violent ones, like you only hear about violent, uncontrollable schizophrenics, not the 98% of those who live quietly at home or locked in non-violent delusions. And it USED to be considered until two things happened:

1. One side discovered that state homes could be closed at a great benefit to the state.

2. The other side began being concerned about the civil rights of the mentally ill and began advocating for them all to be treated exactly the same as those who were in full control of their faculties.

As a result, state group homes and developmental centers began to be closed and the residents shipped back to their communities without regard to whether or if they were ready to go, or if they understood what was waiting for them, or if there were facilities that could accept them or support them. In 95% of cases, they were able to go. In 5%, they were not, and those are the ones out on the streets or living in these substandard facilities today.

Even today, well-meaning civil rights advocates will INSIST that severely autistic, mentally ill, or profoundly retarded people (like your nephew) should be living in "least restrictive environments" by which they mean homes or unsecured facilities and they will do anything they can to block returning such individuals to more secure facilities. At the same time, states lack money and cut funding to "unnecessary" locked facilities because we have the drugs to keep "those people" under control. Except sometimes we don't and even if we do, they need constant maintenance.

It's just not as simple as either let'emallout or lock'emallup, no matter how badly people want to think it is. There is no one size fits all: We need a case-by-case fit for each and every person out there. Costs more up front, but the savings will come at the back end when they all don't have to be warehoused in prisons and mental wards for the rest of their lives.
2014-05-18 09:37:11 PM  
1 votes:

Benevolent Misanthrope: It's a little more complicated than that,  subby.

I watched the neighbourhood I grew up in completely changed by a "multi-treatment facility".  It was a quiet place, people were nice, we kids could play outside, nobody got broken in on... nice neighbourhood.  Very suburban.  Then, we got a group home.  What can I say - mentally ill teenagers act out.  Within 3 months, there were break-ins, cars keyed, fights in the alleyway, teenage kids on "free time" terrorizing the kids from the neighbourhood, cops being called day and night, ambulances pulling up day and night... it did ruin the neighbourhood.  The first argument from the workers was that everyone were just prejudiced against the mentally ill, and no one could prove it was "their" kids doing that stuff.  So some neighbours got security cameras and caught the little bastards red-handed.  Then the tune changed to "need for tolerance and understanding".  But it's hard to be tolerant when your home has lost thousands in value and your family no longer feel safe.  And even if the kid got sent to juvie, another one came in.  The behaviours didn't change.

So, yes - if I'd spent 30 years paying off a mortgage on a house in a nice neighbourhood, and those kinds of behaviours started happening because a group home came in, I'd be pissed off, too.

That said, there is a need for better mental health services, especially for juveniles.  I'd like to see a tiered approach by which more levels are added, so that the kids who are placed in group homes in nicer neighbourhoods are ready to function socially there.  But maybe we should concentrate on actually offering mental health services first.


Hey look, everyone.  It's one of those paid Republican operatives.  Hi paid Republican operative?  Are you sleeping OK at night, doing the appalling thing that you do for a living?
2014-05-18 06:42:01 PM  
1 votes:

addy2: hardinparamedic: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Ever been attacked by an autistic kid? My friends kid is autistic and pretty okay most of the time but one time when the mom was visiting he went from zero the feral in about two seconds. Full on primate biting, scratching, feral rage. He also got thrown out of the local school's special ed program when he bit one of the handlers so hard the woman had to go to the hospital for stitches.

I deal with Autistic children every day. A good deal of the ill and injured children I transport are autistic.

They are not as violent or as hard to handle as you claim they are.

/and there are drugs for that.

Bull. My nephew the 200 pound kid would attack his 110 pound mother. They had to constantly have men around just in case. They found the right drugs but it took years. My friend's son would fight at her and she'd come in with bruises. denial helps nobody.


This.

Science is far from being able to medicate all conditions, much less all of the time.
2014-05-18 05:46:09 PM  
1 votes:

sno man: addy2: hardinparamedic: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Ever been attacked by an autistic kid? My friends kid is autistic and pretty okay most of the time but one time when the mom was visiting he went from zero the feral in about two seconds. Full on primate biting, scratching, feral rage. He also got thrown out of the local school's special ed program when he bit one of the handlers so hard the woman had to go to the hospital for stitches.

I deal with Autistic children every day. A good deal of the ill and injured children I transport are autistic.

They are not as violent or as hard to handle as you claim they are.

/and there are drugs for that.

Bull. My nephew the 200 pound kid would attack his 110 pound mother. They had to constantly have men around just in case. They found the right drugs but it took years. My friend's son would fight at her and she'd come in with bruises. denial helps nobody.

Yes, your one nephew is EXACTLY like all the kids on the spectrum.


Point is it happens, genius. And needs to be considered.
2014-05-18 05:38:22 PM  
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Ever been attacked by an autistic kid? My friends kid is autistic and pretty okay most of the time but one time when the mom was visiting he went from zero the feral in about two seconds. Full on primate biting, scratching, feral rage. He also got thrown out of the local school's special ed program when he bit one of the handlers so hard the woman had to go to the hospital for stitches.

I deal with Autistic children every day. A good deal of the ill and injured children I transport are autistic.

They are not as violent or as hard to handle as you claim they are.

/and there are drugs for that.


Bull. My nephew the 200 pound kid would attack his 110 pound mother. They had to constantly have men around just in case. They found the right drugs but it took years. My friend's son would fight at her and she'd come in with bruises. denial helps nobody.
2014-05-18 05:07:30 PM  
1 votes:

RoyFokker'sGhost: And yet, the group home that was 5 houses down the block from me was peaceful and calm while I was growing up. I've been around for 40 years, and there's never been any trouble with that house or in the neighborhood.

Almost as if it's not the kids that are the problem, but the quality of care that causes situations like that.



Bingo.

You can't simply drop a bunch of autistic kids (or autistic adults) into a neighborhood with a couple of caregivers and expect them to manage by themselves. Hell, you can't drop a bunch of so-called "normal" teenagers into a neighborhood and expect them to manage--look at the chaos in an off-campus residential area.

So if you want to have a multi-care facility in a nice neighborhood for the benefit of the kids, you need highly skilled caregivers, you need the support and full knowledge of the neighborhood, and constant monitoring from the regional center that is responsible for the kids. At minimum.
2014-05-18 04:05:52 PM  
1 votes:

Monkeyhouse Zendo: moeburn: I thought we were talking about a house for 5 autistic kids, not a group home for troubled teens?

Ever been attacked by an autistic kid? My friends kid is autistic and pretty okay most of the time but one time when the mom was visiting he went from zero the feral in about two seconds. Full on primate biting, scratching, feral rage. He also got thrown out of the local school's special ed program when he bit one of the handlers so hard the woman had to go to the hospital for stitches.

They're not all Rain Man.


Yeah, autistic people can lash out when they panic.  But you were talking about "break-ins, cars keyed, fights in the alleyway, teenage kids on "free time" terrorizing the kids from the neighbourhood, cops being called day and night, ambulances pulling up day and night... " -that doesn't sound like autistic people.  Autistic people have been known to break in to things they are obsessed with, like that kid who kept breaking into new york subway trains because he loved driving them.  But keying cars?  Fighting in alleyways?  Terrorizing the neighbourhood?  That isn't autistic kids, that's bored, pissed off, desperate kids.
2014-05-18 04:04:30 PM  
1 votes:
If the grouphome has appropriate supervision and the residents are able to function safely in a low to no security environment then go ahead and open one on my block. There's a huge difference between people whose impairments mean they need extra behavioral guidance or physical assistance and people with dangerous behavioral problems. If someone needs to be kept under lock and key to prevent them from harming others, a residential home is probably not the place to do that.

We shouldn't be institutionalizing everyone, but at a certain point public safety and the care needs of the individual are better served in an institution.

/Ford sounds like a terrible human being.
2014-05-18 03:01:44 PM  
1 votes:
I think a lot depends on the groups running it. There are some that are handled very well, have adequate caretakers, appropriate safeguards, carefully screen who will be staying there, and are genuinely in it for the benefit of the mentally ill and the surrounding neighbors.

Then there are those that are in it for the Medicare and Medicaid benefits and do just the bare minimum to get it. There are also those who really want to help but have no clue what they're doing.

Unfortunately, you basically only hear about the bad ones. There's been one case in the news here for the past 6 months or so where a caretaker took some kids to the park, wasn't paying attention, and one of them stabbed a jogger to death. The victim's family isn't as mad at the kid as they are at the company that runs the home where he's staying because apparently there have been other problems as well, just nothing this tragic.
2014-05-18 02:58:00 PM  
1 votes:

Eirik: TV's Vinnie: Eirik: TV's Vinnie: This story smells a lot like Reagan's "Welfare Queen" bullsh*t.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2013/12/lind a_ taylor_welfare_queen_ronald_reagan_made_her_a_notorious_american_villa in.html

So of course, the Reagan solution was "cut off welfare for EVERYBODY, even the innocent!".

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1970_2019USb_15s2 li 111mcn_40t_40_Welfare_Spending_Chart#view

Hey, you're right.  According to this chart of federal welfare spending I found over the last 40 years, Welfare spending was slashed from $95.4 billion in 1980 (the last year of the Carter Administration) down to a paltry $146.69 in 1988.

Must be the new math.


Because prices in 2014 are the same as they were in 1980 (rolls eyes).
2014-05-18 02:56:45 PM  
1 votes:
I recall there's a similar type of center in Connecticut called Chapel Haven, a few blocks away from Yale's main campus. They've got dorm-style rooms and also bought out some houses in the area for their more higher-functioning autistics. No criminally insane folks, but certainly some that need supervision. They're taught to use the bus system to get around and are tolerated by the locals. TLC was actually thinking of doing a reality show over there, but the kids the director picked were so articulate and well-adjusted that the producers didn't think they were "Aspergery" enough and the series was canned in development.

But yeah, this thing here smells of insensitivity and intolerance all around.
2014-05-18 02:45:52 PM  
1 votes:

Monkeyhouse Zendo: So you're saying that some don't go into fits of rage. That's cool. Now if you're claiming that none go into fits of rage I'm going to ask you to fark the fark off.


YMMV, but every one I've ever had with a psychotic break have had other comorbidities, such as schizophrenia or ODD/BPD.

Of course, my threshold for knocking someone out is much lower than residential treatment facilities can get away with. While I can fight with them, I really don't care to.

/I've come to love Haldol and Geodon far, far more since I started working with kids.
2014-05-18 02:35:08 PM  
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: They are not as violent or as hard to handle as you claim they are.


So you're saying that some don't go into fits of rage. That's cool. Now if you're claiming that none go into fits of rage I'm going to ask you to fark the fark off.
2014-05-18 02:30:00 PM  
1 votes:

Benevolent Misanthrope: SecretAgentWoman: Benevolent Misanthrope: It's a little more complicated than that,  subby.

I watched the neighbourhood I grew up in completely changed by a "multi-treatment facility".  It was a quiet place, people were nice, we kids could play outside, nobody got broken in on... nice neighbourhood.  Very suburban.  Then, we got a group home.  What can I say - mentally ill teenagers act out.  Within 3 months, there were break-ins, cars keyed, fights in the alleyway, teenage kids on "free time" terrorizing the kids from the neighbourhood, cops being called day and night, ambulances pulling up day and night... it did ruin the neighbourhood.  The first argument from the workers was that everyone were just prejudiced against the mentally ill, and no one could prove it was "their" kids doing that stuff.  So some neighbours got security cameras and caught the little bastards red-handed.  Then the tune changed to "need for tolerance and understanding".  But it's hard to be tolerant when your home has lost thousands in value and your family no longer feel safe.  And even if the kid got sent to juvie, another one came in.  The behaviours didn't change.

So, yes - if I'd spent 30 years paying off a mortgage on a house in a nice neighbourhood, and those kinds of behaviours started happening because a group home came in, I'd be pissed off, too.

That said, there is a need for better mental health services, especially for juveniles.  I'd like to see a tiered approach by which more levels are added, so that the kids who are placed in group homes in nicer neighbourhoods are ready to function socially there.  But maybe we should concentrate on actually offering mental health services first.

But the bad ones can go to the bad neighborhoods freely? NIMBY is crap. It doesn't matter location, it obviously matters what treatment and services these kids are getting. Sounds like they need more of both, and better supervision.

No, that's not my meaning and stop intentionally taking out ...


I'll back you up on this.  I got what you were saying the first time around.  There are some kids who are prepared to be part of a particular community, and others who, through no fault of their own, are not yet ready.  It doesn't matter what country we're talking about, be it Canada, The Netherlands, or the USA, mental health services are woefully lacking in resources and far too often people are placed into a situation, in your case a neighborhood, where they aren't prepared to function as a normal member of society.  We need more facilities for a wider range of treatment options, rather than just taking a bunch of kids and sticking them in a house where they aren't capable of being members of the community.
2014-05-18 02:11:40 PM  
1 votes:

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Ever been attacked by an autistic kid? My friends kid is autistic and pretty okay most of the time but one time when the mom was visiting he went from zero the feral in about two seconds. Full on primate biting, scratching, feral rage. He also got thrown out of the local school's special ed program when he bit one of the handlers so hard the woman had to go to the hospital for stitches.


I deal with Autistic children every day. A good deal of the ill and injured children I transport are autistic.

They are not as violent or as hard to handle as you claim they are.

/and there are drugs for that.
2014-05-18 02:06:11 PM  
1 votes:

moeburn: Benevolent Misanthrope: It's a little more complicated than that,  subby.

I watched the neighbourhood I grew up in completely changed by a "multi-treatment facility".  It was a quiet place, people were nice, we kids could play outside, nobody got broken in on... nice neighbourhood.  Very suburban.  Then, we got a group home.  What can I say - mentally ill teenagers act out.  Within 3 months, there were break-ins, cars keyed, fights in the alleyway, teenage kids on "free time" terrorizing the kids from the neighbourhood, cops being called day and night, ambulances pulling up day and night... it did ruin the neighbourhood.  The first argument from the workers was that everyone were just prejudiced against the mentally ill, and no one could prove it was "their" kids doing that stuff.  So some neighbours got security cameras and caught the little bastards red-handed.  Then the tune changed to "need for tolerance and understanding".  But it's hard to be tolerant when your home has lost thousands in value and your family no longer feel safe.  And even if the kid got sent to juvie, another one came in.  The behaviours didn't change.

So, yes - if I'd spent 30 years paying off a mortgage on a house in a nice neighbourhood, and those kinds of behaviours started happening because a group home came in, I'd be pissed off, too.

That said, there is a need for better mental health services, especially for juveniles.  I'd like to see a tiered approach by which more levels are added, so that the kids who are placed in group homes in nicer neighbourhoods are ready to function socially there.  But maybe we should concentrate on actually offering mental health services first.

I thought we were talking about a house for 5 autistic kids, not a group home for troubled teens?


It's a "multi-treatment facility" per TFA.
2014-05-18 01:58:16 PM  
1 votes:

Ghastly: Fark like a Barsoomian: Ford is quoted as saying it was unacceptable to have emergency vehicles parked on the street outside the home

Ok well you can quote me saying the same thing. I can still remember every time I've seen that happen while I'm trying to sleep, and I'm sure it's unsettling if it happens during the day. Of course this is a bad idea.

I've never understood how NIMBY became a bad word.

Because it is. People want the benefits of modern infrastructure just as long as anything perceived as "negative" is "stuck where the poor/dark people are".

Oakville and Burlington are two of the Nimbiest of Nimby communities in Southern Ontario. Worse than GTA and Mississauga.


Guelph looks down from it's place atop the NIMBY throne and laughs at that comment.
2014-05-18 01:53:56 PM  
1 votes:
I usually don't advocate for savage, vigilante street justice a la a Jean Claude Van Dam Movie.

Usually.
2014-05-18 01:47:21 PM  
1 votes:
It does seem like this ford guy is atleast familiar with mental instability
2014-05-18 01:38:29 PM  
1 votes:

Benevolent Misanthrope: No, that's not my meaning and stop intentionally taking out of context.Group homes are placed in quiet, peaceful neighbourhoods so that the kids can have that kind of environment to positively influence them. Also to help them adapt to life in society at large rather than in an institution. There should be more help for them to acclimate before they are thrown into a social situation they are unprepared for. Even a nicer neighbourhood situation - it would be helpful to both sets of stakeholders, the kids and the neighbourhood.Sure, IMBY. As long as they don't rip off my stuff or otherwise act in unacceptable ways with impunity.


I'm with you. People acting like it's a travesty to even bring up any negative impacts such a home has on a neighborhood are just as bad as Ford. If you want to have a dialog then everything needs to be on the table for discussion. The moment you start shouting people down for bringing up an uncomfortable fact it's no longer an honest discussion.
2014-05-18 01:29:02 PM  
1 votes:

SecretAgentWoman: Benevolent Misanthrope: It's a little more complicated than that,  subby.

I watched the neighbourhood I grew up in completely changed by a "multi-treatment facility".  It was a quiet place, people were nice, we kids could play outside, nobody got broken in on... nice neighbourhood.  Very suburban.  Then, we got a group home.  What can I say - mentally ill teenagers act out.  Within 3 months, there were break-ins, cars keyed, fights in the alleyway, teenage kids on "free time" terrorizing the kids from the neighbourhood, cops being called day and night, ambulances pulling up day and night... it did ruin the neighbourhood.  The first argument from the workers was that everyone were just prejudiced against the mentally ill, and no one could prove it was "their" kids doing that stuff.  So some neighbours got security cameras and caught the little bastards red-handed.  Then the tune changed to "need for tolerance and understanding".  But it's hard to be tolerant when your home has lost thousands in value and your family no longer feel safe.  And even if the kid got sent to juvie, another one came in.  The behaviours didn't change.

So, yes - if I'd spent 30 years paying off a mortgage on a house in a nice neighbourhood, and those kinds of behaviours started happening because a group home came in, I'd be pissed off, too.

That said, there is a need for better mental health services, especially for juveniles.  I'd like to see a tiered approach by which more levels are added, so that the kids who are placed in group homes in nicer neighbourhoods are ready to function socially there.  But maybe we should concentrate on actually offering mental health services first.

But the bad ones can go to the bad neighborhoods freely? NIMBY is crap. It doesn't matter location, it obviously matters what treatment and services these kids are getting. Sounds like they need more of both, and better supervision.


No, that's not my meaning and stop intentionally taking out of context.

Group homes are placed in quiet, peaceful neighbourhoods so that the kids can have that kind of environment to positively influence them.  Also to help them adapt to life in society at large rather than in an institution.  There should be more help for them to acclimate before they are thrown into a social situation they are unprepared for.  Even a nicer neighbourhood situation - it would be helpful to both sets of stakeholders, the kids and the neighbourhood.

Sure, IMBY.  As long as they don't rip off my stuff or otherwise act in unacceptable ways with impunity.
2014-05-18 01:17:36 PM  
1 votes:
Ford is quoted as saying it was unacceptable to have emergency vehicles parked on the street outside the home

Ok well you can quote me saying the same thing. I can still remember every time I've seen that happen while I'm trying to sleep, and I'm sure it's unsettling if it happens during the day. Of course this is a bad idea.

I've never understood how NIMBY became a bad word.
2014-05-18 09:59:06 AM  
1 votes:
I had no idea that there were Canadians that were utterly horrible people without any redeeming qualities whatsoever.
 
Displayed 62 of 62 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
Advertisement
On Twitter






In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report