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(Vox)   For all the bellicose bluster from John McCain and the rest of the armchair generals on the right, it looks like Obama's approach to the Ukraine crisis is working   (vox.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, Sen. John McCain, President Obama, Ukraine, Vladimir Putin, armchair general, financial crisis, rentals  
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3852 clicks; posted to Politics » on 17 May 2014 at 1:04 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-17 08:39:15 AM  
for all his bluster, putin is not very bright. he's donald trump-like character, only with access to a military.
 
2014-05-17 08:57:28 AM  
The big failure with McCain's analysis (well, more like knee-jerk derping) of this was that he compared this situation to dealing with the Soviet Union.  Russia today has far more economic links to the West than the Soviet Union ever did, so economic-based sanctions will be far more effective against them than they would have ever been against the Soviet Union.

I think that we're all going to look back and be grateful for the way the 2008 election turned out, for quite a few reasons.
 
2014-05-17 09:43:54 AM  
For a guy that spent years as a POW, McCain sure seems to be war happy.
 
2014-05-17 11:09:31 AM  
Obama, master at the long game. Trolling conservatives is just icing on the cake.
 
2014-05-17 11:55:49 AM  

jake_lex: I think that we're all going to look back and be grateful for the way the 2008 election turned out, for quite a few reasons.


For all Obama's faults, I haven't stopped being grateful since election night. But you're right. I believe that history is going to be a lot more approving of Obama. (He is, after all, the master of the long game.)
 
2014-05-17 12:17:12 PM  
You mean we are going to war with Russia?
 
2014-05-17 12:31:04 PM  
I am no military genius but any rational person would think long and hard before taking aggressive military action against a nuclear power and nation that has demonstrated bad-ass fighting skills in numerous wars. We could certainly "win" to the extent that any war is "won" but it is likely to be at an enormous cost.

Economic sanctions and lots and lots of negotiations...very, very good.
 
2014-05-17 01:09:09 PM  
John McCain is terrified that he won't live to see WW III: Nuclear Boogaloo
 
2014-05-17 01:10:54 PM  

oldernell: For a guy that spent years as a POW, McCain sure seems to be war happy.


Revenge is a dish best derped old.
 
2014-05-17 01:11:52 PM  
movies.trekcore.com

Jim, Russia is a child. I suggest you treat it as such.

movies.trekcore.com

Spock, this "child" is about to wipe out every living thing on Earth. Now, what do you suggest we do? Spank it?

movies.trekcore.com

It knows only that it needs, Doctor. But like so many of us, it does not know what.
 
2014-05-17 01:12:36 PM  
Wait, you mean the idea of a measured and carefully considered foreign policy action that attempts to address the problem in small steps that drive a problem to a solution worked?

We don't have to just press the  farkITLETSGOTOWAR!button every time someone does something we don't like?

Really? We can stop spending our blood and treasure everywhere for limited gains that vanish as soon as our blood stops flowing and we leave?

Wow... I never realized that you could do something in the foreign policy arena without killing a few thousand people, at least. I mean, it's unprecedented that we could accomplish a goal without using our military.

Wow.

Knock me over with a feather, man. Just... wow.
 
2014-05-17 01:13:53 PM  
The thing is, I think, is that "John McCain" is just Sen. McCain stating his own opinions.  "President Obama" is the collected advice from the nation's experts on post soviet Russia, global economics, etc. So, of course, the reasoned approach will win over the shouting-at-clouds approach.
 
2014-05-17 01:14:24 PM  
So he's saying that Putin is...  Well hung?
 
2014-05-17 01:15:20 PM  
GOP rebuttal:

i2.cdn.turner.com
 
2014-05-17 01:16:16 PM  
Never would have guessed the Netherlands....  must be energy driving that number.


Russia's Top Import Partners
Below is a list of Russia's top 15 trade partners that imported the most Russian shipments by dollar value during 2013. Also shown is each import country's percentage share of total exports from Russia.

Netherlands: $70,126,107,000 (13.3% of total Russian exports)
Italy: $39,323,294,000 (7.5%)
Germany: $37,027,812,000 (7%)
China: $35,630,503,000 (6.8%)
Turkey: $25,499,749,000 (4.8%)
Ukraine: $23,795,691,000 (4.5%)
Belarus: $20,027,672,000 (3.8%)
Japan: $19,648,545,000 (3.7%)
Poland: $19,582,165,000 (3.7%)
Kazakhstan: $17,460,077,000 (3.3%)
United Kingdom: $16,545,036,000 (3.1%)
South Korea: $14,868,269,000 (2.8%)
Finland: $13,307,818,000 (2.5%)
United States: $11,238,028,000 (2.1%)
Latvia: $10,333,558,000 (2%)
 
2014-05-17 01:18:37 PM  
Whether or not American or European governments sanction Russia's broader economy, the global investment community has a mind of its own, and they seem to have decided that Russia's behavior has made it a risky place to put money.

A free-market approach to international diplomacy? That's so crazy it just might work.
 
2014-05-17 01:18:56 PM  
Comon!!!     only 'muricans understand that you have to attack and invade to solve problems like these.
 
2014-05-17 01:19:18 PM  

oldernell: For a guy that spent years as a POW, McCain sure seems to be war happy.


When all you have is a hammer everything looks like your thumb.
 
2014-05-17 01:19:39 PM  

FlashHarry: for all his bluster, putin is not very bright. he's donald trump-like character, only with access to a military.


which means george bush jr would have been bested by him.
 
2014-05-17 01:23:28 PM  
They'll still say Obama is damaging the US's representation by not literally whipping out his dick and flopping it on the table during every meeting with every world leader.
 
2014-05-17 01:25:38 PM  

Hardy-r-r: Never would have guessed the Netherlands....  must be energy driving that number.


Russia's Top Import Partners
Below is a list of Russia's top 15 trade partners that imported the most Russian shipments by dollar value during 2013. Also shown is each import country's percentage share of total exports from Russia.

Netherlands: $70,126,107,000 (13.3% of total Russian exports)
Italy: $39,323,294,000 (7.5%)
Germany: $37,027,812,000 (7%)
China: $35,630,503,000 (6.8%)
Turkey: $25,499,749,000 (4.8%)
Ukraine: $23,795,691,000 (4.5%)
Belarus: $20,027,672,000 (3.8%)
Japan: $19,648,545,000 (3.7%)
Poland: $19,582,165,000 (3.7%)
Kazakhstan: $17,460,077,000 (3.3%)
United Kingdom: $16,545,036,000 (3.1%)
South Korea: $14,868,269,000 (2.8%)
Finland: $13,307,818,000 (2.5%)
United States: $11,238,028,000 (2.1%)
Latvia: $10,333,558,000 (2%)


The fact that the Netherlands is home to Europe's, and one of the world's, biggest and busiest shipping ports (Rotterdam) may have something to do with it, though admittedly unsure. Also, I'm guessing the Dutch get their gas from Norway.
 
2014-05-17 01:28:15 PM  
McCain was wrong about Bin Laden too.

And Iran.

And Benghazi.

And pretty much everything related to foreign policy.
 
2014-05-17 01:29:34 PM  
I am glad we are not sending our soldiers to fight for the corrupt Ukraine government.
McCain needs to go away and yell at the birds on his lawn.

In its 2013 Corruption Perceptions Index released today, Transparancy International slammed Ukraine, calling the country the most corrupt nation in Europe and the fifth most corrupt in the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS).
Ukraine tied for 144th place in the ranking with Cameroon, the Central African Republic, Iran, Nigeria, and Papua New Guinea.


http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/transparency-international-s la ms-ukraine-as-most-corrupt-in-europe-332965.html

// I guess we know how Hunter Biden got his job with that Ukraine Energy Company,and I don't think it was his onion skin resume paper.
 
2014-05-17 01:31:00 PM  

jake_lex: The big failure with McCain's analysis (well, more like knee-jerk derping) of this was that he compared this situation to dealing with the Soviet Union.  Russia today has far more economic links to the West than the Soviet Union ever did, so economic-based sanctions will be far more effective against them than they would have ever been against the Soviet Union.

I think that we're all going to look back and be grateful for the way the 2008 election turned out, for quite a few reasons.


Obama is playing the long game using old Cold War pre-Reagan year policies.  It is the soft power-long game detente approach.  He knows MAD is still in effect and our conventional military is rebuilding post Iraq and Afganistan.  He knows how to play the game with Putin.
 
2014-05-17 01:31:27 PM  

thurstonxhowell: They'll still say Obama is damaging the US's representation by not literally whipping out his dick and flopping it on the table during every meeting with every world leader.


Then they will complain that he is disrespecting the office with such a vulgar action.

Every plan should start with:

'Step 1: Ignore the right.'

You might not even need a step 2 as step 1 will already greatly solve the issue.
 
2014-05-17 01:33:35 PM  

oldernell: For a guy that spent years as a POW, McCain sure seems to be war happy.


Well, when all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a target-rich zone rife with enemy combatants and oppressed locals begging some rugged, handsome outsider with huge pectoral muscles for the sweet release of freedom. Or something.
 
2014-05-17 01:36:01 PM  

soporific: jake_lex: I think that we're all going to look back and be grateful for the way the 2008 election turned out, for quite a few reasons.

For all Obama's faults, I haven't stopped being grateful since election night. But you're right. I believe that history is going to be a lot more approving of Obama. (He is, after all, the master of the long game.)



History already is. Outside the boiling pot of the US (ie the rest of the West), he's regarded very fondly. It's a few that's far more reflective of what he's actually done, rather the swamp of the political storm.

I suspect it's a lot closer to how the US will evenntually view him (that's been the case for pretty much every other previous president).
 
2014-05-17 01:40:41 PM  
John McCain put his body where his mouth is and thereby earned the right to weigh in on what our military strategy ought to be. Not to mention that being Commander In Chief doesn't make you the only person with an interest and an opinion as to how the US should be handling policy, militarily or otherwise. We don't have elected officials to represent us just to furnish the President with an audience and/or cheering section.
 
2014-05-17 01:41:54 PM  

jake_lex: I think that we're all going to look back and be grateful for the way the 2008 election turned out, for quite a few reasons.


And be grateful for 2012, as well.

Had McCain won in 2008, before 2009 ended he'd have bombed the shiat out of Iran, which in turn would've pissed off both Russia and China.  We'd have been leveled by both their combined military might.  The end.

Had Rmoney won in 2013, he would not have hesitated to start lobbing missiles at Kim Jong-Un when he threw his little hissyfit.  This would've pissed off China, but not to the extent that they'd start lobbing missiles our way.  Conversely, had Rmoney been at the controls with this Ukraine mess, you bet he'd have sent troops in.  We'd either be staring at or going through WWIII at present.  The end.

Mark my words, if a Republican wins in 2016, it'll be 2001 all over again.
 
2014-05-17 01:44:00 PM  
Nice projecting.

The EU and NATO look like the bad guys now. Either they did nothing while Ukrainian citizens were being slaughtered, or they were directly involved. Russia leaves the situation with their hands clean.

EU is going to be even more unpopular now, as people see it for what it really is. More rebellions will happen, and more attempts to silence opposition with violence. The NWO is crumbling as people can no longer say it is peaceful and in everyones best interests. That mask of sanity is gone.
 
2014-05-17 01:44:11 PM  

bluorangefyre: jake_lex: I think that we're all going to look back and be grateful for the way the 2008 election turned out, for quite a few reasons.

And be grateful for 2012, as well.

Had McCain won in 2008, before 2009 ended he'd have bombed the shiat out of Iran, which in turn would've pissed off both Russia and China.  We'd have been leveled by both their combined military might.  The end.

Had Rmoney won in 2013, he would not have hesitated to start lobbing missiles at Kim Jong-Un when he threw his little hissyfit.  This would've pissed off China, but not to the extent that they'd start lobbing missiles our way.  Conversely, had Rmoney been at the controls with this Ukraine mess, you bet he'd have sent troops in.  We'd either be staring at or going through WWIII at present.  The end.

Mark my words, if a Republican wins in 2016, it'll be 2001 all over again.


Romney would've also done whatever Netyenahu wanted him to do because they're BFF's.
 
2014-05-17 01:44:58 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: Nice projecting.

The EU and NATO look like the bad guys now. Either they did nothing while Ukrainian citizens were being slaughtered, or they were directly involved. Russia leaves the situation with their hands clean.

EU is going to be even more unpopular now, as people see it for what it really is. More rebellions will happen, and more attempts to silence opposition with violence. The NWO is crumbling as people can no longer say it is peaceful and in everyones best interests. That mask of sanity is gone.


How are Russia's hands clean of the matter?
 
2014-05-17 01:45:19 PM  

jjorsett: John McCain put his body where his mouth is and thereby earned the right to weigh in on what our military strategy ought to be. Not to mention that being Commander In Chief doesn't make you the only person with an interest and an opinion as to how the US should be handling policy, militarily or otherwise. We don't have elected officials to represent us just to furnish the President with an audience and/or cheering section.


No one is saying he can't have an interest or opinion. People are saying that his interest is likely self-centered and his opinions are stupid. There's a difference.
 
2014-05-17 01:46:40 PM  
John Oliver summed it up best on his show last week.

Crimea is a garbage heap and taking it from Ukraine isn't much to brag about.
It would be like Mexico bragging that it annexed Mississippi.
 
2014-05-17 01:46:56 PM  
I said before ,I am glad we're not in Syria or the Ukranie .

But !! You're giving Obama too much credit for thinking this through to an end the game.
 Russia pretty much got everything it wanted in Criema and nobody's is telling them to give it back
!img.fark.net
 
2014-05-17 01:49:00 PM  
for all the _______ bluster from _______ and the rest of the ______ on the right, it looks like Obama's approach to _______ is working
 
2014-05-17 01:49:04 PM  

Mrtraveler01: How are Russia's hands clean of the matter?


All they ever did was put some troops along their border in response to NATO troop buildups. Unless you believe the nonsense about all the Ukrainian protesters being sekrit Russians, which is ridiculous. The EU has been very unpopular for awhile already. He didn't need to create any opposition to it.
 
2014-05-17 01:50:21 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: Mrtraveler01: How are Russia's hands clean of the matter?

All they ever did was put some troops along their border in response to NATO troop buildups. Unless you believe the nonsense about all the Ukrainian protesters being sekrit Russians, which is ridiculous. The EU has been very unpopular for awhile already. He didn't need to create any opposition to it.


So the whole annexing Crimea thing never happened?
 
2014-05-17 01:52:58 PM  

Mrtraveler01: John Oliver summed it up best on his show last week.

Crimea is a garbage heap and taking it from Ukraine isn't much to brag about.
It would be like Mexico bragging that it annexed Mississippi.


plus, he already had what he needed in Crimea (navy base) without having to subsidize thee whole region, so that's a pretty questionable win.
 
2014-05-17 01:53:45 PM  

jjorsett: John McCain put his body where his mouth is and thereby earned the right to weigh in on what our military strategy ought to be. Not to mention that being Commander In Chief doesn't make you the only person with an interest and an opinion as to how the US should be handling policy, militarily or otherwise. We don't have elected officials to represent us just to furnish the President with an audience and/or cheering section.


Too bad he's still wrong.
 
2014-05-17 01:57:41 PM  
Well, I wouldn't be all that jubilant.

Crimea is Russian, and will remain Russian a hundred years from now. Not that there is something wrong with that...

Ukraine is crushed both politically and emotionally, it is separated, divided against itself and will never be united again, not in the same way as it was. Already two different versions of history appear in the East and in the West, and people will defend "their" version with the true zeal. Everything is wrong about it.

Maidan, that have started as "remove oligarchs from power" movement, ended up bringing oligarchs closer to power. Kolomoyskiy is "the Hero of the Ukraine" and controls directly, with his own private army, North and South of the Central Ukraine, Poroshenko is the president, Akhmetov have "won" for himself his own small feudal kingdom in the separatist East.

Hrivna is destroyed (currently hrivna is not a convertible currency, people of Ukraine are not allowed to buy it), economy is suffering greatly, and Putin together with IMF have Ukraine by the balls; that fact is recognized both by the West and by Ukraine itself more and more. The situation may change if Ukraine will reform its economy, but it's a slim chance. I don't believe it'll happen.

Of course Putin is backing down; it was never in the interests of Putin to take Eastern regions of Ukraine into Russia - it's not Crimea, it doesn't have such a great symbolical meaning, and actual real problems of such a move are too big even for Putin to swallow. So he's backing down, "surrendering" something he never even wanted in the first place.

And, by the way, the fact that he is changing tone doesn't actually change the situation. Kiev is not in control of the East, separatists are, and will be for a long, long time. Parallel structures of power are being built in the East of Ukraine, and it is a sign, that power balance in the East will never be the same.

But other than this, it's a total triumph. For anyone but Ukraine, I guess.

Mind you, I'm 100% agree that Obama did the best that could be done in that situation. The situation itself was not winnable, but it was not lost.
 
2014-05-17 02:00:02 PM  

jake_lex: think that we're all going to look back and be grateful for the way the 2008 election turned out, for quite a few reasons.


Quoted for truth. I must say I didn't like Obama so much at first because he was too far to the right for me. However, if McCain would have been elected there would be US soldiers in Iran, the Crimea and Belgium by now.

Republican nonsense must be stopped. Get out the vote.
 
2014-05-17 02:01:26 PM  
Err, people of Ukraine are not allowed to buy any other currency with hrivna. "Official" exchange rate is exactly that: it is only for "trusted" entities, not for people of the country.
 
2014-05-17 02:01:48 PM  

goatan: LadySusan: I am no military genius but any rational person would think long and hard before taking aggressive military action against a nuclear power and nation that has demonstrated bad-ass fighting skills in numerous wars. We could certainly "win" to the extent that any war is "won" but it is likely to be at an enormous cost.

Economic sanctions and lots and lots of negotiations...very, very good.

Which wars? Russia has tended to only win by human wave tactics rather than individual ability and has a habit of getting beaten or at least equalled by inferior forces.


That and their winters give them an unfair advantage.
 
2014-05-17 02:06:18 PM  

Hardy-r-r: Never would have guessed the Netherlands....  must be energy driving that number.


Russia's Top Import Partners
Below is a list of Russia's top 15 trade partners that imported the most Russian shipments by dollar value during 2013. Also shown is each import country's percentage share of total exports from Russia.

Netherlands: $70,126,107,000 (13.3% of total Russian exports)
Italy: $39,323,294,000 (7.5%)
Germany: $37,027,812,000 (7%)
China: $35,630,503,000 (6.8%)
Turkey: $25,499,749,000 (4.8%)
Ukraine: $23,795,691,000 (4.5%)
Belarus: $20,027,672,000 (3.8%)
Japan: $19,648,545,000 (3.7%)
Poland: $19,582,165,000 (3.7%)
Kazakhstan: $17,460,077,000 (3.3%)
United Kingdom: $16,545,036,000 (3.1%)
South Korea: $14,868,269,000 (2.8%)
Finland: $13,307,818,000 (2.5%)
United States: $11,238,028,000 (2.1%)
Latvia: $10,333,558,000 (2%)


It's all Russian hookers.
 
2014-05-17 02:08:25 PM  

bluorangefyre: jake_lex: I think that we're all going to look back and be grateful for the way the 2008 election turned out, for quite a few reasons.

And be grateful for 2012, as well.

Had McCain won in 2008, before 2009 ended he'd have bombed the shiat out of Iran, which in turn would've pissed off both Russia and China.  We'd have been leveled by both their combined military might.  The end.

Had Rmoney won in 2013, he would not have hesitated to start lobbing missiles at Kim Jong-Un when he threw his little hissyfit.  This would've pissed off China, but not to the extent that they'd start lobbing missiles our way.  Conversely, had Rmoney been at the controls with this Ukraine mess, you bet he'd have sent troops in.  We'd either be staring at or going through WWIII at present.  The end.

Mark my words, if a Republican wins in 2016, it'll be 2001 all over again.


I wish there was a way to check, because I'd totally bet scads of money that none of those things would have happened.  I'm still glad they weren't elected.
 
2014-05-17 02:09:47 PM  

Dr.Mxyzptlk.: I said before ,I am glad we're not in Syria or the Ukranie .

But !! You're giving Obama too much credit for thinking this through to an end the game.
 Russia pretty much got everything it wanted in Criema and nobody's is telling them to give it back
![img.fark.net image 182x277]


How so?  Using hard power, aka sending the US Military in would not have made those situations any better, they would have only gotten worse.
 
2014-05-17 02:15:06 PM  

qorkfiend: Whether or not American or European governments sanction Russia's broader economy, the global investment community has a mind of its own, and they seem to have decided that Russia's behavior has made it a risky place to put money.

A free-market approach to international diplomacy? That's so crazy it just might work.


I'm not sure this will be a long term deterrent.  The investment community may be wary of Russia now, but as time goes by and no new sanctions arise, the money will pour back in when investors start eyeing all the cheap deals they are missing.  The only lesson Russia will learn is that when they do something big and bold, they may get some small international backlash, but need only wait a year or two to return to the status quo.
 
2014-05-17 02:23:35 PM  

Dr.Mxyzptlk.: I said before ,I am glad we're not in Syria or the Ukranie .

But !! You're giving Obama too much credit for thinking this through to an end the game.
 Russia pretty much got everything it wanted in Criema and nobody's is telling them to give it back
!


No,what Russia wanted was a puppet government doing their bidding and controlling all of Ukraine. This is plan B and it's not a very good one.
 
2014-05-17 02:27:39 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: Mrtraveler01: How are Russia's hands clean of the matter?

All they ever did was put some troops along their border in response to NATO troop buildups. Unless you believe the nonsense about all the Ukrainian protesters being sekrit Russians, which is ridiculous. The EU has been very unpopular for awhile already. He didn't need to create any opposition to it.


So it was all just a false flag operation by NATO and the EU to make Russia look bad?
 
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