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(The Week)   Millennials have realized that the stock market is a sucker's bet designed to enrich Wall Street middlemen and the super-wealthy at the middle class' expense- and that is freaking out this boomer columnist who was hoping to cash in his 401(K) soon   (theweek.com) divider line 210
    More: Obvious, Wall Street, Neanderthals, Great Recession, risk averse, willful ignorance, stock market crash  
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7113 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 May 2014 at 5:16 PM (10 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-16 02:25:57 PM
Stock market makes 8%. That's an average over several decades, but fark it, you're a 30-something, you've GOT decades.

Index fund is going to knock a half a percent off that. Taxes are 0% on any reasonable amount going up to 24.7% tops.  Plus a little bit of state.

Ok, so stock market makes FIVE percent in the worst case.  Or over 30 years, you'll quadruple your money.

Butbutbut... recession steals my life's savings...WAH!

No, it doesn't work like that.

Let's say that you had to unexpectedly retire at the DEPTHS of the 2008 crash.  So you lost half, then pulled out 20% of what was left.

So for every $100 you had in '07, you have $10 in cash, and $40 in the stock market.

thelastpsychiatrist.com

And then by 2014, you broke even.  Even made a little bit of money.

Now if your house was your retirement, yeah, you're farked.  Because you can't sell part of your house.  So your house lost half its value, and then you were left with 50% of the money you thought you had.

But the stock market is not
enough of a scamto screw you over if you're doing long-term investing. Certain ways of investing in the stock market are a scam, but a couple cents around the edges because of the HFT guys is not going to kill your retirement.  And it's STILL a better return than anything else.
 
2014-05-16 02:35:10 PM
Meyerkev,

We have no need for your graphs and charts. Stocks are a rip-off. Everyone knows the only sound investment is in frozen waffles. Tasty frozen waffles.

That said, trying to gauge to stock market in 3 year buckets is insane. If you are retiring in 10 years, you start to move investments to safer, and lower return, investments. Your 2008 retiree could have gone either way. If they invested across the board with two years left for retirement, they got hit with a correction. That's why you HAVE to diversify, especially when you are older.
 
2014-05-16 03:05:45 PM
Farkin' waffles, man, farkin' waffles.
 
2014-05-16 04:21:44 PM
I dunno, I've a lot of retired family.

They've all blown through their 401Ks already, but didn't have much in them.

The only ones feeling pretty good about retired life have union or military pensions or invested in something like real estate and aren't really retired so much as have to deal with renters.
 
2014-05-16 04:27:17 PM
I'll admit I'm extremely risk averse when it comes to finances.  I like to keep my commitments (bills) low and keep a lot of cash free in my bank accounts in case of emergency.

At the same time, I'm in my early 30s now, so it's probably about time to start seriously coming up with a retirement plan.

I just wish pensions were still the standard way of doing things so I didn't have to worry about it.
 
2014-05-16 04:29:14 PM
FTA:  I am a millennial. I was born in 1987,
 
2014-05-16 04:53:16 PM
The Great Bounce Back would probably feel better if accompanied by the Great Hiring Boom or the Great Boomer Retirement wave, neither of which has occurred.

Even if you have a pension it may not be much. My federal pension will be worth about $15K a year when I retire next year. The rest has to come from Social Security and investments which, while probably adequate for me, could have been semi-spectacular without two big crashes. I had a lot more in there this past decade than 30 years ago.
 
2014-05-16 05:20:05 PM
People also aren't all married and child-laden at 25 anymore.  Hell I didn't really have any money to invest until after 30.
 
2014-05-16 05:21:33 PM
I worry that no matter how much I save it won't be enough.
 
m00
2014-05-16 05:21:36 PM
24.media.tumblr.com
 
2014-05-16 05:23:53 PM

edmo: The Great Bounce Back would probably feel better if accompanied by the Great Hiring Boom or the Great Boomer Retirement wave, neither of which has occurred.

Even if you have a pension it may not be much. My federal pension will be worth about $15K a year when I retire next year. The rest has to come from Social Security and investments which, while probably adequate for me, could have been semi-spectacular without two big crashes. I had a lot more in there this past decade than 30 years ago.


IMO, the only way to get the Boomers to retire is start kneecapping some 60 year olds. And be prepared for some serious understaffing issues in some critical industries, such as Piloting.

You should also be prepared for the Boomers having an increased amount of time to effect politics and policy. The Boomers are still a very powerful group at the polls and many politicians court the Boomer vote.
 
m00
2014-05-16 05:24:26 PM

meyerkev: Let's say that you had to unexpectedly retire at the DEPTHS of the 2008 crash. So you lost half, then pulled out 20% of what was left.


Yeah, I had money in two separate mutual funds by two different respected companies that essentially lost all the money and were brought up for fraud under the SEC regulations. Lost most of my money, and nobody went to jail.
 
2014-05-16 05:24:57 PM
Scarface, explaining why he'd play the ponies but wouldn't invest a dime on Wall Street.

"It's a racket. Those stock market guys are crooked."

www.notablebiographies.com
 
2014-05-16 05:25:22 PM
This group may end up being the best so far, they have benefit of hindsight and they appear to be taking advantage.  The stock market has always been legal gambling but when pensions came into the picture it became a free for all.  It needs serious reform and I'm no commie but I fear if it were changed to be fair and better policed the real facade that is our economy would become too evident.
 
2014-05-16 05:25:34 PM
The Dow is at an all time high right now; how is this guy unable to cash out?
 
2014-05-16 05:26:55 PM
9.5/10, submitter.
Well done.
 
2014-05-16 05:27:25 PM
I wonder if the younger generations would be more willing to invest if they weren't being ground into dust by a ton of student loan debt?

/the banksters thank them for their interest
 
2014-05-16 05:27:59 PM
Or maybe it's because their employment rate is lower than any other American generation in history, and the employed ones are mostly under a mountain of school debt. 25 year olds aren't buying stocks because they're too busy using their money to buy food.
 
2014-05-16 05:28:01 PM
Ok then what's the safe investment if your 55 and looking to retire in 7 years?  Bonds are safe but pay nothing in interest.  When rates do go up (no not hyper up but correct to historic levels) the value of the bonds I buy today will go down.  Utilities used to be pretty safe from losing principle and paid a decent dividend.  Is that where the smart person is putting money as they approach retirement?
 
2014-05-16 05:28:12 PM
Well maybe if you Wall Street farkers weren't treating the market like some kind of combination video game/Alice in Wonderland retelling, people would have more confidence in it.

Company CEO: Our company made $3 million in profits! Revenue rose by 4.4%!
Wall Street: 3 months ago we decided that your revenues should have rose by 4.5%. SELL, MORTIMER, SELL!
 
2014-05-16 05:30:48 PM
Honestly.. I'm 33..

I don't understand the stock market, and I don't give a ripping fark to learn.

I don't make enough to fritter away on investments, and I don't have the time to keep up with it either.

Rich people problems.
 
2014-05-16 05:30:52 PM

meyerkev: Stock market makes 8%. That's an average over several decades, but fark it, you're a 30-something, you've GOT decades.


And homes will never lose their value.

And if you study hard and get a good degree, you'll earn a living that can support you and a family.

I can't imagine why millennials aren't rushing to believe in the financial predictions of their forebears.
 
2014-05-16 05:31:26 PM
AUTHOR IS A MILLENIAL. This is a troll headline.

But hey... carry on.
 
2014-05-16 05:32:14 PM
Making investments requires having money.
 
m00
2014-05-16 05:33:50 PM

Muta: Ok then what's the safe investment if your 55 and looking to retire in 7 years?  Bonds are safe but pay nothing in interest.  When rates do go up (no not hyper up but correct to historic levels) the value of the bonds I buy today will go down.  Utilities used to be pretty safe from losing principle and paid a decent dividend.  Is that where the smart person is putting money as they approach retirement?


Real Estate, commodities. Things that are tangible and have a value because people want to buy them. Stocks are intangible magic, and only have value due to easily manipulated reports which are then second-guessed by brokerages.
 
2014-05-16 05:36:35 PM

LazarusLong42: Or maybe it's because their employment rate is lower than any other American generation in history, and the employed ones are mostly under a mountain of school debt. 25 year olds aren't buying stocks because they're too busy using their money to buy food.


And big screen TVs and smart phones and other completely unnecessary crap.  People are farked financially today more out of their own inability to live within their means than anything else.

I have a cheap phone that makes calls.  I don't have cable, car payments (bought a cheap used vehicle), ride my bike to work regularly, make few lifestyle purchases, etc.  I do however have a gym membership and a personal trainer for my wife.  We can afford that because we don't waste our money elsewhere.

Before the end of the year we will have 100% of our remaining debt paid off.  Then it's going to be all sunshine, lollipops, fluffy bunnies and shooting unicorns off of rainbows.
 
2014-05-16 05:39:01 PM
F#ck the stock market. If you aren't a COMPLETE idiot you have found ways to invest $$ in other arenas that have less risk and better returns
 
2014-05-16 05:39:42 PM
I cashed in my 30k 401k last year. Paid off my credit cards, truck loan and bought an '04 Harley. I'll just work 'til I die and couldn't be happier.
 
m00
2014-05-16 05:39:45 PM

Smeggy Smurf: And big screen TVs and smart phones and other completely unnecessary crap. People are farked financially today more out of their own inability to live within their means than anything else.


Respectfully disagree. There's a whole host of reasons why people are farked financially, and plenty without excessive spending habits are in that category.
 
2014-05-16 05:39:54 PM
Used to be this certain image involved with stock market investment, and you'd see guys who mainly just like the idea of having stocks, and talking about them all the time like a big shot. It's a bit like the lottery in that way too, where most of the enjoyment from buying lotto tickets comes from imagining yourself winning and talking about the lotto all the time.

I don't think millenials buy into any of that shiat. Everytime i see someone buying a lotto ticket they're 40+.
 
2014-05-16 05:40:47 PM

Calmamity: FTA:  I am a millennial. I was born in 1987,


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials

What's your point
 
2014-05-16 05:41:29 PM
"The game is rigged so I won't even try," is a common refrain I hear these days.  Seems like a justification for laziness and poor discipline to me.
 
2014-05-16 05:41:59 PM
Mason Shoes, Amway and Avon, that's how I'm going to make my fortune.
 
2014-05-16 05:42:27 PM

meyerkev: Stock market makes 8%. That's an average over several decades, but fark it, you're a 30-something, you've GOT decades.

Index fund is going to knock a half a percent off that. Taxes are 0% on any reasonable amount going up to 24.7% tops.  Plus a little bit of state.

Ok, so stock market makes FIVE percent in the worst case.  Or over 30 years, you'll quadruple your money.

Butbutbut... recession steals my life's savings...WAH!

No, it doesn't work like that.

Let's say that you had to unexpectedly retire at the DEPTHS of the 2008 crash.  So you lost half, then pulled out 20% of what was left.

So for every $100 you had in '07, you have $10 in cash, and $40 in the stock market.

[thelastpsychiatrist.com image 500x277]

And then by 2014, you broke even.  Even made a little bit of money.

Now if your house was your retirement, yeah, you're farked.  Because you can't sell part of your house.  So your house lost half its value, and then you were left with 50% of the money you thought you had.

But the stock market is not enough of a scamto screw you over if you're doing long-term investing. Certain ways of investing in the stock market are a scam, but a couple cents around the edges because of the HFT guys is not going to kill your retirement.  And it's STILL a better return than anything else.


It's true, long term investing is the way to go.  Find an industry leader, invest for 5 years, evaluate, repeat.  Now who the fark is going to tell them that?
 
2014-05-16 05:43:29 PM
The stock market may not be a sucker's bet, if you are able to take the long view and hold investments a long time.
But, it's clear that the side effects of the stock market (e,g,., businesses making decisions based on how the stock price is affected, and so on) is pretty foul to the common person.
I view the stock market and it's siren song of "free money" to be quite despicable. But I hold my nose and have a modest 401k and some other puny things, and I hope that I happen to get swept along with all of the greed and manipulation that goes on elsewhere.
 
2014-05-16 05:45:02 PM

Muta: Ok then what's the safe investment if your 55 and looking to retire in 7 years?  Bonds are safe but pay nothing in interest.  When rates do go up (no not hyper up but correct to historic levels) the value of the bonds I buy today will go down.  Utilities used to be pretty safe from losing principle and paid a decent dividend.  Is that where the smart person is putting money as they approach retirement?


Well, unless you have a pension, you're probably not retiring at 62.  My grandparents are in their 70s and still working full time.  They're not Boomers(Silent Generation), but they were just as affected by the same things that molded Boomers
 
2014-05-16 05:47:27 PM

Killroy69: AUTHOR IS A MILLENIAL. This is a troll headline.

But hey... carry on.


But the headline, the way it is, will create a boomer hate thread which drives up clicks. Therefore, Drew makes more money.

Drew is a whore and is exactly the same as the people he biatched about in his dumb book.
 
2014-05-16 05:47:34 PM
Stupidity is its own reward. Let the dumbasses suffer in the long run.
 
2014-05-16 05:47:44 PM
The message the Millennials (myself at 28 included) took away from the financial crash of 2008 is that not only are the people who control Wall Street are amoral psychopaths who think nothing of lying to investors on an industry-wide scale, but that they can wreck the global economy and face nothing but a finger-wagging from the media and a cushy government check to get them back to business.

The game is rigged, and we know it. Every bit of advice we were fed our whole lives was designed to turn us into what Wall Street wanted: consumers willing to take ludicrous debt in order to achieve the "American dream" of owning a house, a car, and all the high-end goods that will not only make your life better, but make you a better person for owning them.

/stocks are a luxury good when you live paycheck-to-paycheck
//if money is speech, consider our lack of investment a "screw off" to Wall Street's ilk
 
2014-05-16 05:47:56 PM
I have all my money invested in Bitcoins, so I am pretty much set.
 
2014-05-16 05:49:25 PM
or it could be because pre-2008 and 'underemployed' college educated mellenial was working as an executive assistant making 35k per year + benefits. Post-2008 they are working as a dog walker/tutor/30 hour per week retail making 19k with no benefits. and those are the college grads.

also a lot of companies cut matching, dropped 401k and ESPP programs, fired their least senior workers or only bring new people on as contractors or part time. where is all the extra income the mellenials have that they can put into long term savings?
 
2014-05-16 05:50:16 PM

chitownmike: Calmamity: FTA:  I am a millennial. I was born in 1987,

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials

What's your point


The point is that the headline refers to the writer as a boomer, when in fact he's younger than most of the people in this thread.
 
2014-05-16 05:51:53 PM

iheartscotch: edmo: The Great Bounce Back would probably feel better if accompanied by the Great Hiring Boom or the Great Boomer Retirement wave, neither of which has occurred.

Even if you have a pension it may not be much. My federal pension will be worth about $15K a year when I retire next year. The rest has to come from Social Security and investments which, while probably adequate for me, could have been semi-spectacular without two big crashes. I had a lot more in there this past decade than 30 years ago.

IMO, the only way to get the Boomers to retire is start kneecapping some 60 year olds. And be prepared for some serious understaffing issues in some critical industries, such as Piloting.

You should also be prepared for the Boomers having an increased amount of time to effect politics and policy. The Boomers are still a very powerful group at the polls and many politicians court the Boomer vote.


In 1986 we agreed to up the SSI payroll tax. We thought we were doing the right thing. Because we knew our numbers alone had the potential to bankrupt a working system.

But Gingrich and his minions put a hidden poison pill into that bill that we negotiated. They allowed the federal government to borrow against that in cases of deficit.

Well, ever since trickle down became the economic policy map for the American economy and we started giving trillion dollar tax breaks to "our betters" we've run nothing but budget deficits. And now, well, "they" owe the American tax payer close to 4 trillion dollars.

And here's the kicker: farker's don't want to pay that back.

Open SSI up to 50 something boomers, tell the 1% to cover their decades of debt...I'd be more than pleased to get the fark out of your way. But, seeing as I was just laid off again....dude, I'm still a damn good engineer and I will do everything to get that job ahead of some snot nosed, fresh from college, no experience, engineer wannabe.

Keep voting republican, see where that gets you.
 
2014-05-16 05:52:08 PM
Investing is for people with disposable income.

The Millenials have no disposable income.
 
2014-05-16 05:52:52 PM

meyerkev: Stock market makes 8%. That's an average over several decades, but fark it, you're a 30-something, you've GOT decades.

Index fund is going to knock a half a percent off that. Taxes are 0% on any reasonable amount going up to 24.7% tops.  Plus a little bit of state.

Ok, so stock market makes FIVE percent in the worst case.  Or over 30 years, you'll quadruple your money.

***

But the stock market is not enough of a scamto screw you over if you're doing long-term investing. Certain ways of investing in the stock market are a scam, but a couple cents around the edges because of the HFT guys is not going to kill your retirement.  And it's STILL a better return than anything else.


^^^
THIS.
 
2014-05-16 05:53:25 PM
Millennials are just a bunch of chickens who invest like little, old ladies.

Geez, grow a pair. Life is risk. You'll have plenty of time to adjust your investments as the markets go up, down, all around.
 
2014-05-16 05:53:27 PM

m00: Smeggy Smurf: And big screen TVs and smart phones and other completely unnecessary crap. People are farked financially today more out of their own inability to live within their means than anything else.

Respectfully disagree. There's a whole host of reasons why people are farked financially, and plenty without excessive spending habits are in that category.


Yet damned near everybody who biatches about being poor has a smart phone.  They get no sympathy as long as they're holding what amounts to a plaything.  We didn't have them back in '95 when I was poor and we got along just fine.  You sure as hell don't need one today.  The $80 a month can buy a lot of food if you know a thing or two about cooking.
 
2014-05-16 05:53:46 PM
Or maybe you're like me, and didn't have much money to invest until now, and personally I don't think our economy is strong: we've shored up the house of cards for a while, but there is a distinct financial rot in our middle and lower classes, which in our current service and consumer-based economy spells serious problems.

It's like if I were to look at a potential company to work for, and it's profitable and their products look good, and they just got a ton of capital infusion... but Glassdoor reviews show you that worker attrition is high, morale is low, opportunity for advancement is nonexistent, and the salary/benes, while OK, are nothing to write home about.  It's driven by sales and marketing, and the fundamentals of their business are put together with spit and bailing wire: the knowledge experts are mostly ignored.

That's how I see the United States economy right now: it's got good cheerleaders and looks good on paper, but a little digging shows serious long-term self-destructive trend.

They say buy low, sell high.  Well, I think another low point isn't far off.
 
2014-05-16 05:53:47 PM
The boomers have never really paid their own way, and they're not about to start now.
 
2014-05-16 05:54:42 PM
also this part is nonsense:

'To someone who grew up in the shadow of the Great Depression - where stocks crashed in 1929, and didn't fully recover until 1951, this kind of behavior might be sort of rational. But to millennials who have seen decent stock market gains during their lifetime, it really isn't. It's willful ignorance.'

what its shown mellenials is that the fundamental pact that drives the market is in fact not true- the idea was that you would wisely invest in a company that produced a needed good or service, and as the company put your investment to work, you would both reap the benefits. Now its quite obvious that the market is a money making means to its own end, which is run by financial instutions playing mathematical games to creat illusory 'profit.' Very few of us believe that the current 'recovery' or high is the end of the '2008' crisis. Another- probably larger- crash is inevitable as wall street doubles down on its 2002-2008 schemes and tricks plot. we need to wait until the boomers scheme engines blow themselves up, then hope we can pick up the pieces in a way that makes actual real world sense.
 
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