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(Opposing Views)   Schools are allowed to charge you for your children's records, but the price has to be "small enough that it doesn't prevent a parent from obtaining the record." Which explains why this guy was charged $10,000   (opposingviews.com ) divider line
    More: Asinine, see school, parents, Privacy Act  
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9305 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 May 2014 at 1:20 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-16 12:56:17 AM  
 
2014-05-16 01:24:17 AM  

DanZero: Non OV Link


This. Also

FTA: "Because the SAIN system is not designed to create reports that display individual student data in a readable format,

Then what the fark good is it? Seriously, what the hell is the point of amassing data that cannot be turned into information?
 
2014-05-16 01:25:11 AM  
Since when does fox news trumc opposing views?
 
2014-05-16 01:25:50 AM  

ArcadianRefugee: DanZero: Non OV Link

This. Also

FTA: "Because the SAIN system is not designed to create reports that display individual student data in a readable format,

Then what the fark good is it? Seriously, what the hell is the point of amassing data that cannot be turned into information?


Data! Test scores! Funding! No Child Left Behind!
 
2014-05-16 01:26:10 AM  
Trump,

Many apologies.
 
2014-05-16 01:26:12 AM  
Parent is looking for an indepth information search that the system does not offer, needs to have the state database culled and results formated by hand. Complains when the bill for paying a programer to do that is a little high.
 
2014-05-16 01:31:26 AM  
It isn't important that the parents know, it's only important that the insurance companies, the banks and the military know.
 
2014-05-16 01:31:58 AM  
$85 an hour? Fast food workers probably have something to say about this.
 
2014-05-16 01:34:31 AM  
Let me get this straight... they'll need to pay a DB guy $85/hr for three weeks of work to add "WHERE StudentID = x" clauses to their queries?

Where do I sign up?
 
2014-05-16 01:35:06 AM  
Then what the fark good is it? Seriously, what the hell is the point of amassing data that cannot be turned into information?

Grats on your idiot status. Do you go around asking why traffic lights only have only red green and yellow? why no aqua? or magenta? Pink! What good is a traffic light if it can only show 3 colors?

Oh.
 
2014-05-16 01:38:38 AM  

ArcadianRefugee: Then what the fark good is it? Seriously, what the hell is the point of amassing data that cannot be turned into information?


The system is designed for aggregating data. If you want to know the percentage of male students between that scored between 76 and 83 on a standard test over the past 4 years and then compare the results for people born in January and August, then it would probably be pretty straightforward. Pulling every piece of data for one individual student is something that it isn't designed to do.

Hell, the inability to call up the data on an individual student is likely a feature of the system as it prevents some random person from pulling up a kid's record.
 
2014-05-16 01:40:15 AM  
FTFA Staff determined that it would take at least 3 weeks (120 hours) of dedicated programming time to fulfill the parent's request. At the applicable wage rate of $84.95/hour, the requested work resulted in a $10,194 price tag

Ah yes - the government way of doing this.  Charge the first requestor the full price of developing the capability and then just give it away from to everyone else that asks for it.
 
2014-05-16 01:40:45 AM  
"This data is for everyone except the parents."
 
2014-05-16 01:41:15 AM  

NorthernMT: Trump,

Many apologies.


I don't see any need for you to apologise to that toupee-wearing buffoon.
 
2014-05-16 01:41:38 AM  
img.fark.net

People act this haven't been going on for decades. When you turned 18 where the fark did you think that $15 razor by mail came from?
 
2014-05-16 01:42:12 AM  

JeffMD: Parent is looking for an indepth information search that the system does not offer, needs to have the state database culled and results formated by hand. Complains when the bill for paying a programer to do that is a little high.


Yeah, apple report vs. orange report.

He can get the school records cheap.

He's asking specifically for what data is included in the multi-state database.
 
2014-05-16 01:42:20 AM  
I thought Credit Bureaus were bad.
 
2014-05-16 01:45:36 AM  
FTA: The school would have to spend a lot of time and money programming the System of Accountability Information in Nevada (SAIN) to produce the information Eppolito wants.

Sounds like bullshiat. I know a couple of Starbucks IT guys that could probably do it in a day. There is no way their time is that expensive.
 
2014-05-16 01:46:22 AM  

gingerjet: FTFA Staff determined that it would take at least 3 weeks (120 hours) of dedicated programming time to fulfill the parent's request. At the applicable wage rate of $84.95/hour, the requested work resulted in a $10,194 price tag

Ah yes - the government way of doing this.  Charge the first requestor the full price of developing the capability and then just give it away from to everyone else that asks for it.


Unless you can show there are more people in line to get this code written, then damn right they do.
 
2014-05-16 01:46:34 AM  
"Eppolito, who leads the group Stop Common Core Nevada is suspicious that the collection and sharing of data could be related to Common Core..."

Bingo.

Funny how all these "horror stories' only happen to Right-wing asshats who are leading the charge against teh evil union teachers and gub'mint schools.
 
2014-05-16 01:49:50 AM  
*reads TFA*

The data the school collects is meant for aggregate data (76% of kids in grade 11 don't get enough Vitamin R, etc.) and doesn't support linking data to individuals -- nobody can actually look up a kid and see what data the school has on it. Dad wants the school to make it possible to track individuals' data.

Wrong ass-related tag, subby
 
2014-05-16 01:52:00 AM  
staff assessed how much programming time would be required to write new queries and develop a data table to create readable reports for the parent. Staff determined that it would take at least 3 weeks (120 hours) of dedicated programming time to fulfill the parent's request

I'm not a dba but I read that as developing a template to collect reports on individual students. If that is the case the school system should swallow the one-time fee for development in order to meet the Federal Education Rights and Privacy Act going forward.

real estate agent by trade and a fierce opponent of Common Core(from the fox article)

That might also be part of the problem. I doubt this is his first run-in with the school.
 
2014-05-16 01:56:51 AM  

Maggie_Luna: ArcadianRefugee: DanZero: Non OV Link

This. Also

FTA: "Because the SAIN system is not designed to create reports that display individual student data in a readable format,

Then what the fark good is it? Seriously, what the hell is the point of amassing data that cannot be turned into information?

Data! Test scores! Funding! No Child Left Behind!


Exactly this.  If you think your school district gives a rat's ass about your child's education, you are delusional.  All that matters is the school's overall standing which will decide the amount of funding it receives.  Which also explains zero tolerance policies.  Kids that get into trouble tend to do poorly academically.  Not always, which is why we hear about the honor students getting tossed out of school.  If they make an exception for the honor student because "it was an honest mistake", they'll have to let the bad students back in, and that will screw up their scores.
 
2014-05-16 01:58:23 AM  
I wonder when we'll just start injecting NFC-like chips into a hand at birth that connects to a single massive database with all your info in it.

ID
school
driving/dmv/insurance
criminal
watch lists
taxes
air miles
grocery
credit card / bank record
work history
phone records
Night rider fan club membership
and the other 100's of things already in databases that  I'm forgetting.


The records that show would be based on who wants the information;
A school admin would only get school records
A cop gets driving / dmv / criminal records /warrants and the like
A bank would get just your banking and credit stuff
Homeland security would see all of it

I'm guessing about 2035,  give or take a few years.
 
2014-05-16 01:58:47 AM  

Caffeine Induced Diarrhea: FTA: The school would have to spend a lot of time and money programming the System of Accountability Information in Nevada (SAIN) to produce the information Eppolito wants.

Sounds like bullshiat. I know a couple of Starbucks IT guys that could probably do it in a day. There is no way their time is that expensive.


Government contract work.  Multiply what a competent person would require by at least ten to get an estimate for a government contract worker.  Then assume there will be a cost overrun, anyway.
 
2014-05-16 02:09:27 AM  

dywed88: ArcadianRefugee: Then what the fark good is it? Seriously, what the hell is the point of amassing data that cannot be turned into information?

The system is designed for aggregating data. If you want to know the percentage of male students between that scored between 76 and 83 on a standard test over the past 4 years and then compare the results for people born in January and August, then it would probably be pretty straightforward. Pulling every piece of data for one individual student is something that it isn't designed to do.

Hell, the inability to call up the data on an individual student is likely a feature of the system as it prevents some random person from pulling up a kid's record.


OK, that makes sense. What doesn't is that last bit: they cannot call up a single record's entries (or the ones associated with a single record). fark, a basic dump of "field name, data" would suffice and if he wanted it prettier then charge him; after all, his request was "what data...?" Dump the data and be done with it. Saying it would take some 40 days seems ... a engineering. You know: you can complete something in 2 hours but you tell people "8 hours" knowing they'll demand it sooner or because it'll make you look like a miracle maker when you bring it in at 6 hours.
 
2014-05-16 02:10:23 AM  
"a engineering" should be "an engineer's time quote". Thought got garbled coming out.
 
2014-05-16 02:12:24 AM  

ArcadianRefugee: DanZero: Non OV Link

This. Also

FTA: "Because the SAIN system is not designed to create reports that display individual student data in a readable format,

Then what the fark good is it? Seriously, what the hell is the point of amassing data that cannot be turned into information?


Everything was fine until Bobby Tables enrolled.
 
2014-05-16 02:19:20 AM  

zero7717: *reads TFA*

The data the school collects is meant for aggregate data (76% of kids in grade 11 don't get enough Vitamin R, etc.) and doesn't support linking data to individuals -- nobody can actually look up a kid and see what data the school has on it. Dad wants the school to make it possible to track individuals' data.

Wrong ass-related tag, subby


Holy shiat this. Really, it took this many comments before someone grasped this?

The students are individually protected because the data is aggregate. Most likely the student names are stripped off early in the process, thus the need for major reprogramming. At the end of which we'd have a program that does exactly what "dad" is so worried about in the first place: enable people to look up individual data.

I really hope other parents are quicker on the uptake than him... and most of you lot. Bigmouth Dad needs to be told to shut up.
 
2014-05-16 02:53:07 AM  

JeffMD: Parent is looking for an indepth information search that the system does not offer, needs to have the state database culled and results formated by hand. Complains when the bill for paying a programer to do that is a little high.


Um, it's one SQL statement.

SELECT *
FROM students
Where students.firstName="kid's first name" AND students.lastName="kid's last name" AND students.schoolID="The school's Id";

/ if you wanted to get really fancy; you could have the user input all the stuff in quotes in situ
 
2014-05-16 02:54:03 AM  
So, basically, we don't want the government collecting data that can be linked back directly to our kids, and now to ensure that we are going to insist that they rework their system to link the data directly back to our kids. . .

imagemacros.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-05-16 02:55:35 AM  

brimed03: zero7717: *reads TFA*

The data the school collects is meant for aggregate data (76% of kids in grade 11 don't get enough Vitamin R, etc.) and doesn't support linking data to individuals -- nobody can actually look up a kid and see what data the school has on it. Dad wants the school to make it possible to track individuals' data.

Wrong ass-related tag, subby

Holy shiat this. Really, it took this many comments before someone grasped this?

The students are individually protected because the data is aggregate. Most likely the student names are stripped off early in the process, thus the need for major reprogramming. At the end of which we'd have a program that does exactly what "dad" is so worried about in the first place: enable people to look up individual data.

I really hope other parents are quicker on the uptake than him... and most of you lot. Bigmouth Dad needs to be told to shut up.


And the sad thing is that the data is probably the same data that was available to him in the school reports. But since this was in the states database, he has to see it himself to believe what it contains. So he can pay up.
 
2014-05-16 02:55:49 AM  

iheartscotch: JeffMD: Parent is looking for an indepth information search that the system does not offer, needs to have the state database culled and results formated by hand. Complains when the bill for paying a programer to do that is a little high.

Um, it's one SQL statement.

SELECT *
FROM students
Where students.firstName="kid's first name" AND students.lastName="kid's last name" AND students.schoolID="The school's Id";

/ if you wanted to get really fancy; you could have the user input all the stuff in quotes in situ


That is, of course, assuming that they broke down the data to the individual level. Like normal people.
 
2014-05-16 03:04:41 AM  

iheartscotch: iheartscotch: JeffMD: Parent is looking for an indepth information search that the system does not offer, needs to have the state database culled and results formated by hand. Complains when the bill for paying a programer to do that is a little high.

Um, it's one SQL statement.

SELECT *
FROM students
Where students.firstName="kid's first name" AND students.lastName="kid's last name" AND students.schoolID="The school's Id";

/ if you wanted to get really fancy; you could have the user input all the stuff in quotes in situ

That is, of course, assuming that they broke down the data to the individual level. Like normal people.


Or assuming they collected it individually, as opposed to in agregate without names.
 
2014-05-16 03:13:04 AM  

doglover: iheartscotch: iheartscotch: JeffMD: Parent is looking for an indepth information search that the system does not offer, needs to have the state database culled and results formated by hand. Complains when the bill for paying a programer to do that is a little high.

Um, it's one SQL statement.

SELECT *
FROM students
Where students.firstName="kid's first name" AND students.lastName="kid's last name" AND students.schoolID="The school's Id";

/ if you wanted to get really fancy; you could have the user input all the stuff in quotes in situ

That is, of course, assuming that they broke down the data to the individual level. Like normal people.

Or assuming they collected it individually, as opposed to in agregate without names.


I assumed that they used the scantron bubble test thingy, or something similar. That has a name section, a school section and a test/whatever section. I'd assume that it would have to associate the test with the tested at some point or how would you get results? How would you ever filter out mistakes without having some sort of foreign key to the students table at the very least? How would you know that all of the students had been accounted for otherwise?

/ or is this one of those statistics that mean absolutely nothing?
 
2014-05-16 03:21:23 AM  
www.thestoragealchemist.com
 
2014-05-16 03:30:44 AM  

iheartscotch: I assumed that they used the scantron bubble test thingy, or something similar. That has a name section, a school section and a test/whatever section. I'd assume that it would have to associate the test with the tested at some point or how would you get results? How would you ever filter out mistakes without having some sort of foreign key to the students table at the very least? How would you know that all of the students had been accounted for otherwise?

/ or is this one of those statistics that mean absolutely nothing?


That's a lot of assumption. I'd assume that they worked hard to anonymize the data since that is what you are suppose to do with data from human subjects that you are going to send to third parties.
 
2014-05-16 03:35:12 AM  

Cozret: iheartscotch: I assumed that they used the scantron bubble test thingy, or something similar. That has a name section, a school section and a test/whatever section. I'd assume that it would have to associate the test with the tested at some point or how would you get results? How would you ever filter out mistakes without having some sort of foreign key to the students table at the very least? How would you know that all of the students had been accounted for otherwise?

/ or is this one of those statistics that mean absolutely nothing?

That's a lot of assumption. I'd assume that they worked hard to anonymize the data since that is what you are suppose to do with data from human subjects that you are going to send to third parties.


Especially kids.

Ever worked in education? Some information in the school, not even the teachers get access too.
 
2014-05-16 03:40:37 AM  
To see all Table titles:

SELECT * FROM information_schema.tables

That should tell you WHAT data is being collected.  Assume your child has an entry in each.

Then I suppose you could do something like:

SELECT * FROM * WHERE {primary key} = "your child's name"

For $10,000 I'll learn the actual SQL to do it instead of just using Google.
 
2014-05-16 03:51:29 AM  
I smell deliberate disingenuity.  I know people like this guy, and they're the kind of people who will keep insisting on things like this to use as a gotcha and stir up outrage.  Think about it: there is no "win" scenario for the school system.

* If they had given him the data he asked for right away, he could say "Look how easy it is, anybody working there could be browsing YOUR KIDS' PERSONAL DATA!"

* If they said it was difficult and/or expensive and/or would take a long time to collate, he gets to paint them as some combination of greedy, lazy or incompetent because  obviously it's so easy to just pull it up by selecting all records for a given student.

* If they just plain can't do it, because of law or practicality, then he gets to talk about how "THEY WON'T LET US SEE!  WHAT IS GOING ON BEHIND CLOSED DOORS?!"

Of the three, option 2 is probably the least-worst from the school's point of view.

OgreMagi: Caffeine Induced Diarrhea: FTA: The school would have to spend a lot of time and money programming the System of Accountability Information in Nevada (SAIN) to produce the information Eppolito wants.

Sounds like bullshiat. I know a couple of Starbucks IT guys that could probably do it in a day. There is no way their time is that expensive.

Government contract work.  Multiply what a competent person would require by at least ten to get an estimate for a government contract worker.  Then assume there will be a cost overrun, anyway.


$85 an hour is chump change for the people who do this kind of work in the private sector.  Contract rates for this kind of work outside of government go well into three figures per hour.
 
2014-05-16 05:08:15 AM  

Kensey: $85 an hour is chump change for the people who do this kind of work in the private sector.  Contract rates for this kind of work outside of government go well into three figures per hour.


We do B2B software, and that is under half the rate we charge for custom developments ( works out as ~$185ph) - and if it requires me or one of the other senior devs, rather than the more junior guys doing the work, we usually find a way pad out the time we quote, as our value to the company developing new features is almost certainly worth more than that rate still.
 
2014-05-16 06:00:28 AM  
Kensey:* If they had given him the data he asked for right away, he could say "Look how easy it is, anybody working there could be browsing YOUR KIDS' PERSONAL DATA!"

No one's going to care that the people responsible for inputting the data and printing it out have access to the database.

* If they said it was difficult and/or expensive and/or would take a long time to collate, he gets to paint them as some combination of greedy, lazy or incompetent because  obviously it's so easy to just pull it up by selecting all records for a given student.

How were the programmers eventually going to provide that data?  Looking through each file one at a time?  They're just going to query her name in the database, something that sure as hell doesn't take 120 hours of programming to do.

Are they creating a GUI interface using Visual Basic?

* If they just plain can't do it, because of law or practicality, then he gets to talk about how "THEY WON'T LET US SEE!  WHAT IS GOING ON BEHIND CLOSED DOORS?!"

If the law prevents him from seeing his kids' permanent records, he has every right to call attention to it and try to fix it.  But the school was the one being disingenuous when they told him that it would cost $10,000 to give him that information.

Of the three, option 2 is probably the least-worst from the school's point of view.

So farking what?  You don't get to break the law and deny someone records because that's best for you.
 
2014-05-16 06:02:03 AM  

ArcadianRefugee: DanZero: Non OV Link

This. Also

FTA: "Because the SAIN system is not designed to create reports that display individual student data in a readable format,

Then what the fark good is it? Seriously, what the hell is the point of amassing data that cannot be turned into information?


That made the least sense, how the fark do they read it then? And $85/hour? That better be contractor rates since nobody would get that to create something to fix it working for themselves.

Hell I bet most people would do it for under $1k and have it done aafter lunch.
 
2014-05-16 06:11:08 AM  
Heh. The amount of armchair quarterbacking here is amazing.  Tho it always is on Fark :)
 
2014-05-16 06:13:13 AM  

Maggie_Luna: ArcadianRefugee: DanZero: Non OV Link

This. Also

FTA: "Because the SAIN system is not designed to create reports that display individual student data in a readable format,

Then what the fark good is it? Seriously, what the hell is the point of amassing data that cannot be turned into information?

Data! Test scores! Funding! No Child Left Behind!

Common Core

FTFY
 
2014-05-16 06:18:23 AM  
FERPA restrictions allow the institutions to basically charge cost for data.

In the case of stuff that's commonly requested, "cost" is the few thousand bucks a year in physical costs and employee time required to maintain (and have someone on hand to retrieve the data from) the relevant database, divided by however many requests per year... so probably something like five bucks if you just want your kid's test scores or something.

If you want something that no one sane would ever want, like to have someone construct you a custom report on your kids deconvolving data that's stored in a more or less completely transformed/anonymized fashion, and repeat for every single data point the state has tracked, for four kids... yeah, I can see "cost" translating to 2.5k$ a kid.  Specialists' hourly at that level probably runs in the same tier as a specialist lawyer's.
 
2014-05-16 06:26:25 AM  

iheartscotch: SELECT *
FROM students
Where students.firstName="kid's first name" AND students.lastName="kid's last name" AND students.schoolID="The school's Id";

/ if you wanted to get really fancy; you could have the user input all the stuff in quotes in situ


Well that's one person that's never worked on any database larger than a sample set from a high school compsci class assignment.

Even the NIST databases, literally the numbers/data from an institution that's done nothing  but standardize things for over a century, aren't consistently standardized enough where you could get anything out of something like that across multiple databases without spending 10k$+ on a specialist (or a month of a grad student's time, which is actually more than that in funding terms).
 
2014-05-16 06:53:32 AM  
imgs.xkcd.com
 
2014-05-16 06:58:25 AM  
Here's my issue.

The law says parents have the right to the information.

The law says the can only charge for the copying.

It's not the parent's fault that the program needs to be changed. He should only be charged for the copying, not the software coding.
 
2014-05-16 06:59:05 AM  

Ghryswald: To see all Table titles:

SELECT * FROM information_schema.tables

That should tell you WHAT data is being collected.  Assume your child has an entry in each.

Then I suppose you could do something like:

SELECT * FROM * WHERE {primary key} = "your child's name"

For $10,000 I'll learn the actual SQL to do it instead of just using Google.


The number of mysql weekend warriors in this thread is pretty high. Anyone who's ever worked with large normalized government databases with no foreign keys and no database diagram/documentation available knows exactly how painful and time consuming this can be. I spent six months untangling a health care database that used four character table names and four character column names for over ten thousand tables.
 
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