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(Kotaku)   Daedra? Piece of cake. Sheogorath? Easy as pie. Alduin? Might as well be fighting a mudcrab. The true scourge of Elder Scrolls Online is bots   (kotaku.com) divider line 100
    More: Scary, Elder Scrolls, ESO, Bethesda Softworks, autopilots, NPC, experience point  
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4556 clicks; posted to Geek » on 15 May 2014 at 8:39 PM (37 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-15 06:29:21 PM  
Wait....

The players have collision detection with each other on in ESO?

Who thought that was a good idea?

Or do I misunderstand "clog up dungeon passages to such an extent that human players have trouble passing through them."
 
2014-05-15 06:55:30 PM  

meat0918: Wait....

The players have collision detection with each other on in ESO?

Who thought that was a good idea?

Or do I misunderstand "clog up dungeon passages to such an extent that human players have trouble passing through them."


Not sure who else to interpret it, other than maybe you can't see where you're going?
 
2014-05-15 07:39:33 PM  
My problem with ESO is it seems like Syndrome made it.

www.troll.me

You aren't the hero. You aren't the chosen one. You aren't the only one who can save the realm. You're the same as every other player on there. There's nothing special about you.

They basically removed one of the core features of the Elder Scrolls games: that you are unique and necessary to the story.
 
2014-05-15 08:19:14 PM  

scottydoesntknow: My problem with ESO is it seems like Syndrome made it.

[www.troll.me image 553x373]

You aren't the hero. You aren't the chosen one. You aren't the only one who can save the realm. You're the same as every other player on there. There's nothing special about you.

They basically removed one of the core features of the Elder Scrolls games: that you are unique and necessary to the story.


For some reason I'm imagining dozens of player characters all standing around casting "Water Walking" for hours on end to try and raise their Alteration by a point.
 
2014-05-15 08:26:56 PM  

Danger Avoid Death: scottydoesntknow: My problem with ESO is it seems like Syndrome made it.

[www.troll.me image 553x373]

You aren't the hero. You aren't the chosen one. You aren't the only one who can save the realm. You're the same as every other player on there. There's nothing special about you.

They basically removed one of the core features of the Elder Scrolls games: that you are unique and necessary to the story.

For some reason I'm imagining dozens of player characters all standing around casting "Water Walking" for hours on end to try and raise their Alteration by a point.


Lol.

I think they dumbed it down to actual classes.

EVE does it right, more or less.
 
2014-05-15 08:40:10 PM  
I played for a while on the closed and open beta. I haven't played since it launched, but the biggest problem for me with ESO was the generic feel of the entire world and watching people following NPCs I couldn't see while they did things I had just done, or would do, was the silliest thing I have ever witnessed.
 
2014-05-15 08:50:09 PM  

Danger Avoid Death: scottydoesntknow: My problem with ESO is it seems like Syndrome made it.

[www.troll.me image 553x373]

You aren't the hero. You aren't the chosen one. You aren't the only one who can save the realm. You're the same as every other player on there. There's nothing special about you.

They basically removed one of the core features of the Elder Scrolls games: that you are unique and necessary to the story.

For some reason I'm imagining dozens of player characters all standing around casting "Water Walking" for hours on end to try and raise their Alteration by a point.


When I had to raise my Acrobatics by a couple points I queued up "Jump Around" on my iPod...

/I played the ESO beta.  I'm currently on attempt number I Forget in trying to actually beat Oblivion.  So you can tell what my choice was here.
 
2014-05-15 08:54:01 PM  
ESO, the greatest running simulator ever made!
 
2014-05-15 08:58:22 PM  

scottydoesntknow: You aren't the hero. You aren't the chosen one. You aren't the only one who can save the realm. You're the same as every other player on there. There's nothing special about you.


Frankly I would prefer an mmo treat you this you. You aren't a farking hero until you have earned it.

But not the way modern mmo's do it. You log in, get handed a sack full of monty haul loot, a hot angel sucks your dick and you are given a trophy every time you open a door or take a piss.

In otherwords: mmo's for millennials suck shiat.
 
2014-05-15 09:04:57 PM  

The Third Man: Danger Avoid Death: scottydoesntknow: My problem with ESO is it seems like Syndrome made it.

[www.troll.me image 553x373]

You aren't the hero. You aren't the chosen one. You aren't the only one who can save the realm. You're the same as every other player on there. There's nothing special about you.

They basically removed one of the core features of the Elder Scrolls games: that you are unique and necessary to the story.

For some reason I'm imagining dozens of player characters all standing around casting "Water Walking" for hours on end to try and raise their Alteration by a point.

When I had to raise my Acrobatics by a couple points I queued up "Jump Around" on my iPod...

/I played the ESO beta.  I'm currently on attempt number I Forget in trying to actually beat Oblivion.  So you can tell what my choice was here.


I'm currently playing all the mods I could find on Oblivion. I've beaten the vanilla version a few times, done all the quests, maxed out my levels in almost everything. So, it's mods now, since my laptop is probably too slow and old for Skyrim. I've almost finished the Archaeology Guild mod, and I'm moving on the the Lich King mod next.

And when I had to raise my Acrobatics (I chose it as a Major Skill) I fast traveled to Cloud Top or Dragonclaw and jumped from point to point all the way down the mountain. When I got to the bottom I'd fast travel back to the top and start all over again.

I wish Oblivion didn't have that damned 5 skill levels per character level training limit. Morrowind was much better in that respect.
 
2014-05-15 09:07:50 PM  
Is bots.  No, no, no.  Subject-verb agreement suffers 10 critical damage.

neongoats: mmo's


When are apostrophes used for pluralization?  That's right, never.  MMOs is what you wanted to type.
 
2014-05-15 09:14:46 PM  

syrynxx: neongoats: mmo's

When are apostrophes used for pluralization?  That's right, never.  MMOs is what you wanted to type.


Last time I checked AP and the Chicago Manual both disagree with you.
 
2014-05-15 09:14:55 PM  

syrynxx: Is bots.  No, no, no.  Subject-verb agreement suffers 10 critical damage.

neongoats: mmo's

When are apostrophes used for pluralization?  That's right, never.  MMOs is what you wanted to type.


I'm just waking up, no caffeine has been consumed. Coffee brewing as we fark.
 
2014-05-15 09:16:58 PM  

scottydoesntknow: My problem with ESO is it seems like Syndrome made it.



You aren't the hero. You aren't the chosen one. You aren't the only one who can save the realm. You're the same as every other player on there. There's nothing special about you.

They basically removed one of the core features of the Elder Scrolls games: that you are unique and necessary to the story.


Eh. One of the (many many) things that tired me out of WoW was the hero shtick. "Help me defeat this ultimate baddy, hero!...err wait, another hero clicked the quest before you, wait for their hero time to be up." ESO doesn't have to involve you in this long story arc of a few heros or hero reincarnations or whatever, thats the point of making it a multiplayer game.
 
2014-05-15 09:18:09 PM  

meat0918: Or do I misunderstand "clog up dungeon passages to such an extent that human players have trouble passing through them."


a huge amount of content was pulled out of instances and put into public areas, so it's probably more referring to progress being halted because the public boss you have to kill dies in fractions of a second

meat0918: I think they dumbed it down to actual classes.


four classes, the warrior, rogue. priest, and mage archetypes but all with a magic flavor to it so every class can use mana gear

neongoats: Frankly I would prefer an mmo treat you this you. You aren't a farking hero until you have earned it.


oh no, it's far dumber than that. you ARE the hero, chosen by a legendary figure to carry on a secret mission and bla bla. just like everyone else. you're all the chosen one.
 
2014-05-15 09:18:15 PM  

Danger Avoid Death: The Third Man: Danger Avoid Death: scottydoesntknow: My problem with ESO is it seems like Syndrome made it.

[www.troll.me image 553x373]

You aren't the hero. You aren't the chosen one. You aren't the only one who can save the realm. You're the same as every other player on there. There's nothing special about you.

They basically removed one of the core features of the Elder Scrolls games: that you are unique and necessary to the story.

For some reason I'm imagining dozens of player characters all standing around casting "Water Walking" for hours on end to try and raise their Alteration by a point.

When I had to raise my Acrobatics by a couple points I queued up "Jump Around" on my iPod...

/I played the ESO beta.  I'm currently on attempt number I Forget in trying to actually beat Oblivion.  So you can tell what my choice was here.

I'm currently playing all the mods I could find on Oblivion. I've beaten the vanilla version a few times, done all the quests, maxed out my levels in almost everything. So, it's mods now, since my laptop is probably too slow and old for Skyrim. I've almost finished the Archaeology Guild mod, and I'm moving on the the Lich King mod next.

And when I had to raise my Acrobatics (I chose it as a Major Skill) I fast traveled to Cloud Top or Dragonclaw and jumped from point to point all the way down the mountain. When I got to the bottom I'd fast travel back to the top and start all over again.

I wish Oblivion didn't have that damned 5 skill levels per character level training limit. Morrowind was much better in that respect.


The one thing Oblivion has over Skyrim: unarmed combat. Had an Imperial monk on one Oblivion run, and it was fun. (Yes, unarmed combat exists to some degree in Skyrim, but it's nowhere near as viable as it was in Oblivion).

Punching a dragon in the face was something they dropped the ball on.

Oh and, you only get five skill points to train with still, and you jump levels if you've accumulated too many points, so you'll miss out on training sessions if you've been grinding too hard.
 
2014-05-15 09:26:04 PM  

syrynxx: Is bots.  No, no, no.  Subject-verb agreement suffers 10 critical damage.


Subject in this case is "scourge". The sentence already agrees.
 
2014-05-15 09:34:00 PM  

Arkanaut: syrynxx: Is bots.  No, no, no.  Subject-verb agreement suffers 10 critical damage.

Subject in this case is "scourge". The sentence already agrees.


Thank you for having the scourage to say so.
 
2014-05-15 09:34:56 PM  
The saddest part is that problems like this are entirely predictable and they should have been working to prevent it ahead of time. All prior MMOs have had bots, spam, and cheating, and so will all future MMOs if these inevitable problems are glossed over during development.
 
2014-05-15 09:39:35 PM  

meat0918: Wait....

The players have collision detection with each other on in ESO?

Who thought that was a good idea?

Or do I misunderstand "clog up dungeon passages to such an extent that human players have trouble passing through them."


"Dungeon's Closed..."
 
2014-05-15 09:40:45 PM  
I watched him for 15 minutes banning the endless stream of bots gangbanging that NPC

Go on...
 
2014-05-15 09:41:46 PM  
...

Yeah, Imma stick with my SW:TOR.

:P
 
2014-05-15 09:44:07 PM  

sprawl15: oh no, it's far dumber than that. you ARE the hero, chosen by a legendary figure to carry on a secret mission and bla bla. just like everyone else. you're all the chosen one


Oh, hah. Well that plagues all the modern/current games of the type. WoW syndrome, gaming for millennials, a trophy for every occasion and everyone is the ONE AND ONLY hero, somehow. Put on your earbuds and play a solo mmo ignoring all the other people that are doing the same thing and ignoring you, TOGETHER!

It was more fun when you started as a naked n00b and there was a good 50% chance that you would die trying to kill your first lvl 1 creature.
 
2014-05-15 09:54:04 PM  
FTFA: "If enough of these programs are working simultaneously, for instance, they'll all try to buy mundane items so many times over that it jacks up their price. Rare and valuable items, meanwhile, are depreciated in turn as they're hunted down relentlessly by these algorithms."

Or, these bots reveal the true problem with MMORPGS: at the end of the day, they're all a worthless waste of time that can be easily overrun by a bunch of script kiddies.
 
2014-05-15 09:55:08 PM  
This sounds like the world of T'rain in Neal Stephenson's Reamde.
 
2014-05-15 09:56:54 PM  
Huge numbers of bots tells me that it's a game I should stay away from.  Not because of the bots themselves, but because huge numbers of bots are indicative of a grindy game full of RNG and money/time sinks.  Bots and farming are in every MMO, but farm bots are only present in super huge numbers when aspects of the game are so annoying that large portions of the game population are willing to pay real life money to avoid aspects of a game they're already paying real life money to play.
 
2014-05-15 10:01:13 PM  
I'm currently playing it, but I'm a touch underwhelmed. I'm not sure how long I will continue.
 
2014-05-15 10:03:30 PM  

neongoats: scottydoesntknow: You aren't the hero. You aren't the chosen one. You aren't the only one who can save the realm. You're the same as every other player on there. There's nothing special about you.

Frankly I would prefer an mmo treat you this you. You aren't a farking hero until you have earned it.

But not the way modern mmo's do it. You log in, get handed a sack full of monty haul loot, a hot angel sucks your dick and you are given a trophy every time you open a door or take a piss.

In otherwords: mmo's for millennials suck shiat.


Yes. Everyone wanted to play Ultima Online and Everquest.

That's why both are still around (yes, yes, I know, but you get the point, even if both have come back they DID get shut down for quite a while because of lack of players).  If you want to be 'hardcore'? WoW can do that. Go beat the leading edge content on first-day release and tell me it's easy. Maybe they've dumbed it down since Pandas was released, but frankly, until the next set of content gets released, putting the current stuff on farm is not an easy task for most guilds.  But I'm sure you're a god at gaming or something so that doesn't apply to you.

I can't think of any actual MMOs with consistent endgame right now though. Maybe FF14 revised or whatever, which was supposed to be tricky at first but turned into poo.  Most MMOs now simply don't aim for that market because it's proven horribly, amazingly, devoid of money. No one wants to play it. The Secret World had some content aimed at that (the puzzles) and look how well it did.

Pointedly, please tell us what your 'not for millenials' MMO is that's hard? Is it UO? Because that wasn't hard, it was just dickish. Is it Eve? Not an MMO, it's a spreadsheet simulator, and again, not remotely hard, just dickish. Everquest? Wasn't really hard, was just obnoxious and focused around farming for days with terrible drop rates and itemization.  FF11? Pretty much the same as EQ, but with weaboos.
 
2014-05-15 10:04:59 PM  

xanadian: ...

Yeah, Imma stick with my SW:TOR.

:P


The Secret World for Life!
/I miss city of heroes.
 
2014-05-15 10:06:14 PM  

Emposter: Huge numbers of bots tells me that it's a game I should stay away from.  Not because of the bots themselves, but because huge numbers of bots are indicative of a grindy game full of RNG and money/time sinks.  Bots and farming are in every MMO, but farm bots are only present in super huge numbers when aspects of the game are so annoying that large portions of the game population are willing to pay real life money to avoid aspects of a game they're already paying real life money to play.


Eh, I think it's just something that's permanently broken regardless of that at this point. Xbox gaming nickle and diming you every 5 minutes for this and that, android and iphone games with pay to win features, have spoiled the masses into expecting that their out of game bank account should be able to buy them in game status/money/levels/etc. And I don't think that's ever going to go back into the can of worms. Pay to win makes money.
 
2014-05-15 10:07:27 PM  

thatboyoverthere: xanadian: ...

Yeah, Imma stick with my SW:TOR.

:P

The Secret World for Life!
/I miss city of heroes.


I liked the Secret World, but I ran out of new gear to get and new skills to learn WAY before I ran out of story, which was sad, cause I liked the story.

Plus, at that point I was stupidly overpowered.  Combat got boring.
 
2014-05-15 10:10:58 PM  

Emposter: thatboyoverthere: xanadian: ...

Yeah, Imma stick with my SW:TOR.

:P

The Secret World for Life!
/I miss city of heroes.

I liked the Secret World, but I ran out of new gear to get and new skills to learn WAY before I ran out of story, which was sad, cause I liked the story.

Plus, at that point I was stupidly overpowered.  Combat got boring.


I've been debating trying it again. I played a while back, and got most of the way through Dartmouth or whatever it was, with the Cthulu flavored first zone, and I -think- I got to the first 'puzzle' dungeon and went 'you can go right off and farking farkity fark yourself with this shiat' when I had to literally google every single step because it involved advanced calculus and a doctorate in ancient american history.

Recommend any particular build if I just want to solo the story?
 
2014-05-15 10:11:58 PM  

kroonermanblack: neongoats: scottydoesntknow: You aren't the hero. You aren't the chosen one. You aren't the only one who can save the realm. You're the same as every other player on there. There's nothing special about you.

Frankly I would prefer an mmo treat you this you. You aren't a farking hero until you have earned it.

But not the way modern mmo's do it. You log in, get handed a sack full of monty haul loot, a hot angel sucks your dick and you are given a trophy every time you open a door or take a piss.

In otherwords: mmo's for millennials suck shiat.

Yes. Everyone wanted to play Ultima Online and Everquest.

That's why both are still around (yes, yes, I know, but you get the point, even if both have come back they DID get shut down for quite a while because of lack of players).  If you want to be 'hardcore'? WoW can do that. Go beat the leading edge content on first-day release and tell me it's easy. Maybe they've dumbed it down since Pandas was released, but frankly, until the next set of content gets released, putting the current stuff on farm is not an easy task for most guilds.  But I'm sure you're a god at gaming or something so that doesn't apply to you.

I can't think of any actual MMOs with consistent endgame right now though. Maybe FF14 revised or whatever, which was supposed to be tricky at first but turned into poo.  Most MMOs now simply don't aim for that market because it's proven horribly, amazingly, devoid of money. No one wants to play it. The Secret World had some content aimed at that (the puzzles) and look how well it did.

Pointedly, please tell us what your 'not for millenials' MMO is that's hard? Is it UO? Because that wasn't hard, it was just dickish. Is it Eve? Not an MMO, it's a spreadsheet simulator, and again, not remotely hard, just dickish. Everquest? Wasn't really hard, was just obnoxious and focused around farming for days with terrible drop rates and itemization.  FF11? Pretty much the same as EQ, but with weaboos.


Just sayin, but Everquest was never shut down, and still has a playerbase larger than most MMO's that aren't WoW. But yeah, they've WoWd it up quite a bit, turned it into a monty haul game where everyone is the hero too.
 
2014-05-15 10:19:06 PM  

kroonermanblack: Emposter: thatboyoverthere: xanadian: ...

Yeah, Imma stick with my SW:TOR.

:P

The Secret World for Life!
/I miss city of heroes.

I liked the Secret World, but I ran out of new gear to get and new skills to learn WAY before I ran out of story, which was sad, cause I liked the story.

Plus, at that point I was stupidly overpowered.  Combat got boring.

I've been debating trying it again. I played a while back, and got most of the way through Dartmouth or whatever it was, with the Cthulu flavored first zone, and I -think- I got to the first 'puzzle' dungeon and went 'you can go right off and farking farkity fark yourself with this shiat' when I had to literally google every single step because it involved advanced calculus and a doctorate in ancient american history.

Recommend any particular build if I just want to solo the story?


I went leaching assault rifle, heavy on crit and penetrate procs.  I critted or penetrated pretty much every hit, allowing for fairly ridiculous damage.  Every hit healed me.  Every crit healed me and procced a chain lightning effect and a huge damage proc every 7 hits or something like that.  Every penetrate also healed me.  I could solo everything short of dungeons by myself, including group mobs...I out-healed incoming damage WHILE attacking.

Note: this was years ago, I'm sure balancing has changed.  At the time, a good 1/4 of assault rifle skills didn't even work, and it was still overpowered.

I actually liked the puzzles, though I agree, some of them were kinda ridiculous.  Most of them were pretty fun though.
 
2014-05-15 10:23:12 PM  

Emposter: Huge numbers of bots tells me that it's a game I should stay away from.  Not because of the bots themselves, but because huge numbers of bots are indicative of a grindy game full of RNG and money/time sinks.  Bots and farming are in every MMO, but farm bots are only present in super huge numbers when aspects of the game are so annoying that large portions of the game population are willing to pay real life money to avoid aspects of a game they're already paying real life money to play.


You're pretty much totally wrong at least in the case of ESO.  It's probably the least 'grindy' MMO I've every played.  In fact, with a post-level 50 character I never sat and just ground out xp at any point.  You play the game, do the quests, follow the story and you'll hit 50 and get into the post-50 veteran ranks with no problem.

The bots were high because the game design allowed guaranteed loot success.  The dungeon bosses in particular spawned in the exact same spot all the time and a very high rate of frequency.  Just park the bot in right spot and you never needed to do anything until your inventory was full, so any jagoff could do it.

The success of actually selling gold, gear or whatever else they pulled in for cash (or simply used as a lure to steal credit card numbers or account information) is of course unknown, but whatever the degree it's because people are getting so used to the pay to win dynamic and simply too farking lazy to play the game.

"Were high" is also really important to note too.  They changed the loot methodology to do away with the easy farming (both by bots and players), and have been banning the ever living shiat out of bot accounts as others have already noted.  I think the gold spamming zone messages are probably still frequent in the newbie zones, but they are nonexistent beyond that.  The bots camping dungeons are gone entirely since the easy farming was eliminated a couple weeks ago.
 
2014-05-15 10:27:43 PM  

neongoats: Just sayin, but Everquest was never shut down, and still has a playerbase larger than most MMO's that aren't WoW. But yeah, they've WoWd it up quite a bit, turned it into a monty haul game where everyone is the hero too.


So, you don't have an answer to my question of 'what MMO meets your standards'.  Frankly, it sounds like the only game that possibly could would be something where you have a 3/4 chance to die every time you fight something, death is permanent, and you have to fight a billion monsters to level, and there are no quests, story, or content, except grinding and statistical surety of character death.
 
2014-05-15 10:28:40 PM  

nytmare: The saddest part is that problems like this are entirely predictable and they should have been working to prevent it ahead of time.


that pretty much describes everything in teso

kroonermanblack: The Secret World had some content aimed at that (the puzzles) and look how well it did.


the secret world doubled down on obfuscation as pacing mechanic. it was interesting while it lasted, but went far too hard on it

neongoats: It was more fun when you started as a naked n00b and there was a good 50% chance that you would die trying to kill your first lvl 1 creature.


not really, since that 'fun' was hitting auto attack and staring at the screen for a while, hoping you flipped a heads

it's like old people saying that life was better back in the day. it wasn't better back in the day, they were just younger and more naive and still discovering things. mmos weren't better back then, you were just ignorant of how mmos work. now you know, so it's boring.
 
2014-05-15 10:29:51 PM  
I played it a few weeks.

I like that a village can be fine one minute then as part of a story line it is burnt to the ground. whenever you return to that area it is in ruins. For a new player not on the story line, the village is still intact.

Still I won't put as much time into it as I have Elder Scrolls or Oblivion. I need to get around to canceling my account.

It  isn't the next great MMO.
 
2014-05-15 10:30:22 PM  

Shrugging Atlas: Emposter: Huge numbers of bots tells me that it's a game I should stay away from.  Not because of the bots themselves, but because huge numbers of bots are indicative of a grindy game full of RNG and money/time sinks.  Bots and farming are in every MMO, but farm bots are only present in super huge numbers when aspects of the game are so annoying that large portions of the game population are willing to pay real life money to avoid aspects of a game they're already paying real life money to play.

You're pretty much totally wrong at least in the case of ESO.  It's probably the least 'grindy' MMO I've every played.  In fact, with a post-level 50 character I never sat and just ground out xp at any point.  You play the game, do the quests, follow the story and you'll hit 50 and get into the post-50 veteran ranks with no problem.

The bots were high because the game design allowed guaranteed loot success.  The dungeon bosses in particular spawned in the exact same spot all the time and a very high rate of frequency.  Just park the bot in right spot and you never needed to do anything until your inventory was full, so any jagoff could do it.

The success of actually selling gold, gear or whatever else they pulled in for cash (or simply used as a lure to steal credit card numbers or account information) is of course unknown, but whatever the degree it's because people are getting so used to the pay to win dynamic and simply too farking lazy to play the game.

"Were high" is also really important to note too.  They changed the loot methodology to do away with the easy farming (both by bots and players), and have been banning the ever living shiat out of bot accounts as others have already noted.  I think the gold spamming zone messages are probably still frequent in the newbie zones, but they are nonexistent beyond that.  The bots camping dungeons are gone entirely since the easy farming was eliminated a couple weeks ago.


That's (bold) an interesting theory, and I admit I haven't played an MMO since SWTOR (TSW before that, EVE before that).  Pay to win may have caught on a lot since I last encountered it.  My next MMO was going to be World of Darkness, except it kept getting pushed back until finally being cancelled.  Farking shame, it was.

In any event, your last paragraph makes it sound like the article is either overstating the problem or simply out of date.  Is that so?
 
2014-05-15 10:31:50 PM  

Danger Avoid Death: scottydoesntknow: My problem with ESO is it seems like Syndrome made it.

[www.troll.me image 553x373]

You aren't the hero. You aren't the chosen one. You aren't the only one who can save the realm. You're the same as every other player on there. There's nothing special about you.

They basically removed one of the core features of the Elder Scrolls games: that you are unique and necessary to the story.

For some reason I'm imagining dozens of player characters all standing around casting "Water Walking" for hours on end to try and raise their Alteration by a point.


For me on Skyrim, it's a nice long Transmute session to raise the Alteration. Candlelight is way too slow.
 
2014-05-15 10:37:21 PM  
scottydoesntknow:

You aren't the hero. You aren't the chosen one. You aren't the only one who can save the realm. You're the same as every other player on there. There's nothing special about you.

They basically removed one of the core features of the Elder Scrolls games: that you are unique and necessary to the story.


They should have taken some cues from Blizzard, which uses phasing to in fact make the player the chosen special one.

Took them some years to arrive at that point though, were the players had actual lasting effects on the enviroment.
 
2014-05-15 10:41:16 PM  

kroonermanblack: So, you don't have an answer to my question of 'what MMO meets your standards'.  Frankly, it sounds like the only game that possibly could would be something where you have a 3/4 chance to die every time you fight something, death is permanent, and you have to fight a billion monsters to level, and there are no quests, story, or content, except grinding and statistical surety of character dea


I'm not currently playing any mmo, though I had been dabbling in Vanguard for a while when I just HAD to play something. I realize that a more challenging game attracts a smaller/more niche playerbase. I'm not disagreeing with you there. Hence Vanguard shutting down.

I'm not arguing your point a-la: people want easy games. People want easy games, yes, it's true. They want easy games that they can pay to win(or at least pay to get on third base). That shiat makes game makers tons of moneys.
 
2014-05-15 10:54:22 PM  
Don't forget dragon priests, subby.  Those guys are dicks.
 
2014-05-15 11:14:39 PM  

Emposter: That's (bold) an interesting theory, and I admit I haven't played an MMO since SWTOR (TSW before that, EVE before that).  Pay to win may have caught on a lot since I last encountered it.  My next MMO was going to be World of Darkness, except it kept getting pushed back until finally being cancelled.  Farking shame, it was.


Well as you said it's just a theory, but honestly, having played god knows how many MMOs...I still play Eve but that's about it other than this foray into ESO...I've yet to play one where buying gold or items for real life cash seemed less necessary.  You'd have to be either a complete dullard or just incredibly lazy to feel it necessary, but then again all you have to do is look at the mind-blowing success of all the 'free to play' mobile apps to know that pool of players is deep indeed.

In any event, your last paragraph makes it sound like the article is either overstating the problem or simply out of date.  Is that so?

The article was a dead on accurate description of the game up until a week or two ago.  You'd get to the end of one of the dungeons and there would just be a pile of 'players' with names like 'jfssp' standing in the right spot.  The boss would spawn always in the exact same spot and be dead in a second or two.  It really was farking ridiculous and horribly annoying.  It wasn't as bad in the higher level zones of course, but it was present for sure.  But the lower and mid-level dungeons were almost impossible to complete because of it.

Now?  No, the article isn't even vaguely accurate.  The primary symptom that spawned that hot mess was removed in an update.  Now if you kill and loot the boss you're on a cooldown timer and can't loot it again for a set period of time (whatever that is I'm unsure of, but it must be large enough the botters found something else to do with their time).  You can stroll into dungeons even in the newbie zones and the boss will be waiting for you if it hasn't just been killed by someone doing so legitimately.  Since I'm one of those lunatic completionists that has to find every map point and complete every objective (for which I blame the previous Elder Scrolls games) I just went back and finished off some of the low level dungeons I couldn't complete because of the bots when I was their level, and I never saw any problems.

Even things like gold selling spam emails to the in game client have been reduced.  I get one every other day or so...but they have a button you can click to immediately report the sender so I wager that helps a lot.

Note none of this is to say I think the game is perfect or even all that great.  As an MMO it has a few unique features and good ideas, and I found the main storyline to be interesting and certainly fit into the wider Elder Scrolls lore.  The game world is quite large, the voice acting is what you'd expect from an Elder Scrolls game.  The PVP is fun and of an acceptable quality for a game where it's not the primary focus, but it's an obvious and unapologetic rip off of Dark Ages of Camelot--like so much so I can't believe a bigger deal hasn't been made of the fact.  As an Elder Scrolls game?  Well it has the look and feel.  It has the lore.  But as others have pointed out....it lacks that element that made the predecessors so awesome, which was a single player game with a world you alone could influence.  I'd say the biggest impact it has had on me is getting me to take another look at the Steam Workshop for Skyrim and start pimping it out for what would be my 4th play through.
 
2014-05-15 11:16:23 PM  

scottydoesntknow: They basically removed one of the core features of the Elder Scrolls games: that you are unique and necessary to the story.


I have to be honest- that's one of the most annoying features of the Elder Scrolls games. I mean, yes- my personal story  should be unique. But it's not just that I'm important- the entire world revolves around me in TES. I can run the Mage's College, the Bard's Guild, the Thieves' Guild, the Dark Brotherhood, the Imperial Army,  and save the damn world- all at the same time.

It feels thin. Now, I am picking more on  Skyrim- at least in  Oblivion while I was  important to saving the world, killing Sean Bean was the real secret to saving the world (as it is in every movie).
 
2014-05-15 11:17:23 PM  

Emposter: That's (bold) an interesting theory, and I admit I haven't played an MMO since SWTOR (TSW before that, EVE before that). Pay to win may have caught on a lot since I last encountered it. My next MMO was going to be World of Darkness, except it kept getting pushed back until finally being cancelled. Farking shame, it was.


Pay to win isn't that big yet in the states in MMOs

Well, it may be, but I haven't seen it.

SWTOR was restrict all the things and force you in a sub to play.

Rift is how you do F2P.
 
2014-05-15 11:28:36 PM  

kroonermanblack: If you want to be 'hardcore'? WoW can do that. Go beat the leading edge content on first-day release and tell me it's easy.


This is not an argument about an aspect of an MMO being hardcore; simply because the numbers increase and the mechanics are not well understood does not make a fight difficult but necessary to learn. This is part of the reason why WoW has often had gear check bosses. See, the fights are easy because once the established gear level is there, often middle of the previous raid for much of the newest content and some odds and ends from the current content, players simply need to follow easily identified patterns. Not to say this is not a problem of many MMOs, but, having beaten content first day of release in raids when I used to play WoW, I can securely say WoW especially suffers from finding particular tricks for a fight, and thereafter those tricks may be repeated for guaranteed victory.
 
2014-05-15 11:32:39 PM  

meat0918: Emposter: That's (bold) an interesting theory, and I admit I haven't played an MMO since SWTOR (TSW before that, EVE before that). Pay to win may have caught on a lot since I last encountered it. My next MMO was going to be World of Darkness, except it kept getting pushed back until finally being cancelled. Farking shame, it was.

Pay to win isn't that big yet in the states in MMOs

Well, it may be, but I haven't seen it.

SWTOR was restrict all the things and force you in a sub to play.

Rift is how you do F2P.


LoTRO is good F2P as well.  You can play through a pretty significant area for free, and all races and classes are open (as I recall).  Then somewhere in the late 20s or level 30s, you have to pay to unlock the content in new zones, but the cost is reasonable, and you can buy it a zone at a time if you want.
  Conan on the other hand had crappy F2P for the bit I tried it.  it restricted you to something like 2 races and 3 classes.
 
2014-05-15 11:37:21 PM  
Here's how boring ESO online is:

I skimmed through the bulk of this thread looking for more posts on the grocer's apostrophe.
 
2014-05-15 11:40:15 PM  

Shrugging Atlas: Note none of this is to say I think the game is perfect or even all that great. As an MMO it has a few unique features and good ideas, and I found the main storyline to be interesting and certainly fit into the wider Elder Scrolls lore. The game world is quite large, the voice acting is what you'd expect from an Elder Scrolls game. The PVP is fun and of an acceptable quality for a game where it's not the primary focus, but it's an obvious and unapologetic rip off of Dark Ages of Camelot--like so much so I can't believe a bigger deal hasn't been made of the fact. As an Elder Scrolls game? Well it has the look and feel. It has the lore. But as others have pointed out....it lacks that element that made the predecessors so awesome, which was a single player game with a world you alone could influence. I'd say the biggest impact it has had on me is getting me to take another look at the Steam Workshop for Skyrim and start pimping it out for what would be my 4th play through.


Honestly, the biggest factor in my not picking up ESO when it came out was probably when I learned you didn't get permanent followers.  Bleh.  I think Skyrim and SWTOR spoiled me, but I really liked that they both (even though SWTOR was nominally an MMO) allowed you to basically be a one-player show.

With respect to your 4th playthrough, I'm currently in a new Skyrim run of my own.  I probably spend as much time modding it as I do playing, and I've already had to start another new game just to handle some of the changes.  Was worth it though (I think).  The player lands are worth it by the way, they add a huge amount of extra game and work perfectly, in case you haven't tried them.  The civil war overhaul is pretty cool, but a little buggy.  It's why I had to restart the game...it doesn't work well unless it's installed from the beginning.  The number of graphical upgrades available is amazing.  The game looks bleeding edge new, if your comp can handle it.  I'm playing a Skyre playthrough, though that's not for everyone.

Mods are, of course, one of the biggest losses in taking TES into MMO-land.
 
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