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(WBOY Clarksburg)   In the least shocking news of the day, it turns out that WV mine that was the scene of an accident Tuesday that killed two, had a long history of safety violations and MSHA was one step away from seeking a court order to shut it down completely   (wboy.com) divider line 73
    More: Followup, MSHA, accidentTuesday, West Virginia, safety violations, court orders, Nick Rahall, Health Administration, burden of proof  
•       •       •

1617 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 May 2014 at 2:16 PM (31 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



73 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-05-15 12:52:23 PM  
More proof Obama is systematically destroying the coal industry.
 
2014-05-15 01:12:38 PM  
I'm sure the owners will face appropriate charges.
 
2014-05-15 01:35:42 PM  
I don't see a problem here... Job creation is job creation.
 
2014-05-15 01:51:40 PM  
Those MSHA guys can sleep soundly now.
 
2014-05-15 02:18:52 PM  
I bet they are getting pretty close to zero steps away now.
 
2014-05-15 02:19:41 PM  
Subby's space bar dun gotz broked?
 
2014-05-15 02:20:12 PM  
Meanwhile, in Turkey, pretty much the same thing.
 
2014-05-15 02:21:44 PM  
Let's call Freedom Industries, they will clean up this mess.
 
2014-05-15 02:23:37 PM  

haemaker: I don't see a problem here... Job creation is job creation.


Exactly- two jobs just got created in the mining industry, plus additional work for the various lawyers.  Just think of how many more jobs we could create without the various mine regulations.

/Sadly, I suspect there are people who actually think this way.
 
2014-05-15 02:23:43 PM  

JoieD'Zen: I'm sure the owners will face appropriate charges.


I'm sure they'll all fit in that jail cell beside Jamie Dimon, Lloyd Blankfein, Hank Paulson, Dubya, Cheney, et al.


/Thanks, Obama.  Good thing you caved to Republicans' demands at every opportunity. Look at all the support you got  from them as a result.
 
2014-05-15 02:24:12 PM  
Those miners should have just free-marketed themselves into safer jobs, then.   I'm sure this government regulation stuff was just put in place to kill jobs.
 
2014-05-15 02:24:28 PM  
The free market in action.
 
2014-05-15 02:24:37 PM  
But the rising cost of safety will TAKE THER JERBS!
 
2014-05-15 02:27:22 PM  
Here is how it works. Coal owns politics. Politics tells the state you don't need education, you need jobs. Coal jobs. So instead of getting a good education and getting the Fark of of that godforsaken shaithole of a state, the kids grow up stuck in wage hell underground.
In my hometown (coal town) we used to say any day above ground is a good day.
I got the fark out. But it's a rigged game.
Coal owns politics.
That is all.
 
2014-05-15 02:27:27 PM  
No surprise either that it was a scab mine.
 
2014-05-15 02:34:36 PM  
West Virginia is what the west would be if we gave all the federal land over to local control. Two words: mountaintop removal.
 
2014-05-15 02:35:39 PM  
If only there were fewer regulations in place, the free market would have already taken care of this.

More deregulation is obviously needed. And tax cuts for the mine owners, so they'll have an incentive to improve their mine.
 
2014-05-15 02:36:46 PM  
West By God trifecta now in play.
 
2014-05-15 02:37:47 PM  
You jest, subby, but I'm pretty damn surprised to learn that a regulatory agency was taking action on anything.
 
2014-05-15 02:38:41 PM  
www.reactiongifs.us
 
2014-05-15 02:42:08 PM  
So, how were the violations related to the accident?
 
2014-05-15 02:42:44 PM  
"accidentTuesday" ? Sounds like a good reason to hit the bar after work.
 
2014-05-15 02:43:36 PM  

Carn: Let's call Freedom Industries, they will clean up this mess.


This was the "Patriot" coal mine.  is it just me or does it seem the worse a company is, the more likely they are to have a name like that?
 
2014-05-15 02:45:49 PM  

Cataholic: So, how were the violations related to the accident?


Well there WERE 250 of them and generally, call me cray but I think an occupational health and safety violation is automatically related to a workplace accident particularly a fatal one.   If nothing else the one reveals a disregard for worker safety than can create the second
 
2014-05-15 02:45:52 PM  

Magorn: Carn: Let's call Freedom Industries, they will clean up this mess.

This was the "Patriot" coal mine.  is it just me or does it seem the worse a company is, the more likely they are to have a name like that?


Aren't they somehow all tied together?
 
2014-05-15 02:46:54 PM  
Really want to see improvement in safety? Make CEOs criminally responsible for needless deaths.
 
2014-05-15 02:56:10 PM  

Magorn: Carn: Let's call Freedom Industries, they will clean up this mess.

This was the "Patriot" coal mine.  is it just me or does it seem the worse a company is, the more likely they are to have a name like that?


Avoid businesses with the word "Freedom" or "Patriot" in the title and groups with the word "Family" in their name, and you will lead a happy life.
 
2014-05-15 02:57:02 PM  
And then there was that one that happened yesterday.  My sone was like, "The people are blaming the company?!"
"Well, yeah.  It's Chile.  They have no safety rules there."
My wife walks in and says, "No.  That was in Turkey!".  "Whoah!  That's even worse!!  Well, same thing applies."
 
2014-05-15 02:58:33 PM  
I work at a mine / mining engineer, so I'm getting a etc etc.

"Long history of violations" is a bit meaningless.  Underground mines are inspected by MSHA four times a year and you'll get citations every visit, guaranteed.   And since violations are written under spec section, it can be easy to get a a real or accused pattern of violations for the same thing.  If you have 50 pieces of mobile equipment, all violations related to them can be written under the same section of the Act.  All electrical on the entire facility, etc etc...

That being said:
 In 2013, Brody Mine was issued 514 citations by MSHA.

God damn, man.

Since being placed on the POV, Brody Mine No. 1 has received 69 withdrawal orders.

Holy fark.

To get their violations:
http://www.msha.gov/drs/drshome.htm#MName

Search under "Brody," click Brody Mine No 1 (mine ID of 4609086), Get More iNformation button on the right.
Click "Get Report" in the lower right.

Gives you all man hours per year, tons produced, fines assessed, fines paid to date, citations vacated, written, etc etc.
 
2014-05-15 03:01:09 PM  
stuffy


Really want to see improvement in safety? Make CEOs criminally responsible for needless deaths.


CEO's have money, jail is for the poor.
 
2014-05-15 03:01:32 PM  

durbnpoisn: And then there was that one that happened yesterday.  My sone was like, "The people are blaming the company?!"
"Well, yeah.  It's Chile.  They have no safety rules there."
My wife walks in and says, "No.  That was in Turkey!".  "Whoah!  That's even worse!!  Well, same thing applies."


Turkey actually isn't too bad (two of my professors were mining engineers from Turkey).  Kind of a big problem since Erdogan took power is that he's scaled back regulation of firms of supporters or owned by members of his cabinet.

The mine disaster in Turkey took place at a mine owned by a major supporter of Erdogan.  IIRC, one of his aides is a part owner as well.
 
2014-05-15 03:02:57 PM  
*step*
 
2014-05-15 03:11:46 PM  
But, I have it on good authority that mine operators love their employees like family and would take every possible precaution to protect their miners and the environment.  It's just those damned regulations taking all their money by forcing them to take safety measures that keeps them from putting safety measures in place.  Billboards wouldn't lie, would they?
 
2014-05-15 03:14:04 PM  

JoieD'Zen: Aren't they somehow all tied together?


Yep, they're all right wing dick bags.
 
2014-05-15 03:22:46 PM  
Over 250 violations and the mine was still open? Sounds like the Government failed.
 
2014-05-15 03:22:49 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: durbnpoisn: And then there was that one that happened yesterday.  My sone was like, "The people are blaming the company?!"
"Well, yeah.  It's Chile.  They have no safety rules there."
My wife walks in and says, "No.  That was in Turkey!".  "Whoah!  That's even worse!!  Well, same thing applies."

Turkey actually isn't too bad (two of my professors were mining engineers from Turkey).  Kind of a big problem since Erdogan took power is that he's scaled back regulation of firms of supporters or owned by members of his cabinet.

The mine disaster in Turkey took place at a mine owned by a major supporter of Erdogan.  IIRC, one of his aides is a part owner as well.


Okay.  So maybe it's not exaclty worse than Chile.  But aren't you still saying that lack of proper regulations was the reason for the accident?
 
2014-05-15 03:31:52 PM  

durbnpoisn: Okay. So maybe it's not exaclty worse than Chile. But aren't you still saying that lack of proper regulations was the reason for the accident?


Yes, but mainly due to recent political interference and not an indictment as the country as a whole.  Turkey was a case of "leave my friends alone" rather than "fark doing anything in the entire country."
 
2014-05-15 03:47:49 PM  
Shocking part: There was about to be regulatory action taken.

Step 1: Defund and cut the nuts off off any agency that could correct abuses.
Step 2: ??
Step 3: Profit!

...

Step 4: Bleat that obviously regulations don't work..
 
2014-05-15 04:00:29 PM  
Ok so when are the Clive Bundy farknozzles going to show up with their guns and defend the poor mine owners freedom?
 
2014-05-15 04:03:04 PM  

EbolaNYC: Ok so when are the Clive Bundy farknozzles going to show up with their guns and defend the poor mine owners freedom?


The Appalachian residents are a bit...   Crazy.  The same people will rant endless about how evil the Federals, especially Obama, for killing the coal industry and then spend the rest of the day ranting how evil the coal companies are for killing/ruining the health of their brother, uncle, father, grand etc.
 
2014-05-15 04:19:03 PM  

Magorn: Well there WERE 250 of them and generally, call me cray but I think an occupational health and safety violation is automatically related to a workplace accident particularly a fatal one.


No, a violation is not necessarily the result of an injury or death.  MSHA violations are the result of issues found during mine inspections.  By law, mines have to be inspected a number of times a year, however,injuries at the mine can trigger additional inspections.  Deaths require mandatory investigations and inspections.

If you want to know the nature of the violations at the mine, go visit the MSHA database(about 1/3rd the way down on the right).
 
2014-05-15 04:20:22 PM  
Satanic_Hamster:

The Appalachian residents are a bit... Crazy. The same people will rant endless about how evil the Federals, especially Obama, for killing the coal industry and then spend the rest of the day ranting how evil the coal companies are for killing/ruining the health of their brother, uncle, father, grand etc.

Crazier than you know. I have a branch of the family what grew up in the Appalachians.I love them because they are family; My cousin who owns a an entire mountain and his wartime bride English girl who has every Princess Diana commemorative tchotcke ever made, but...

I really wonder if they think about what happens once coal companies come to town.
 
2014-05-15 04:22:41 PM  

stuffy: Really want to see improvement in safety? Make CEOs criminally responsible for needless deaths.


Yep, because there would be no more mines.  That is an unworkable solution to the problem and would likely be shown to be an arbitrary and capricious law.
 
2014-05-15 04:28:58 PM  
And nothing will change.

MSHA will buckle to political pressure from the politicians that get their campaign money from the coal companies.

Workers that have bills and no skills due to a shiatty education system will keep going into the mine. Preachers will keep telling everyone God will protect them and that coal was put there by the almighty for them to provide for their families.

Mine owners will keep running their fear campaign of over-regulation killing the opportunities of hard working men and women. They will also keep looking for ways to shed pensions and health care for their retired employees that actually believed they would be taken care of after retirement.

The state should have gotten it's shiat straight a long time ago and taxed the hell out of coal and gas extraction. That money should have went to education and infrastructure.
 
2014-05-15 04:29:14 PM  
HeadLever

stuffy: Really want to see improvement in safety? Make CEOs criminally responsible for needless deaths.

Yep, because there would be no more mines. That is an unworkable solution to the problem and would likely be shown to be an arbitrary and capricious law.


The buck stops... somewhere else.

Huh. Wonder if that works with POTUSs
 
2014-05-15 04:38:36 PM  

HeadLever: No, a violation is not necessarily the result of an injury or death. MSHA violations are the result of issues found during mine inspections. By law, mines have to be inspected a number of times a year, however,injuries at the mine can trigger additional inspections. Deaths require mandatory investigations and inspections.

If you want to know the nature of the violations at the mine, go visit the MSHA database(about 1/3rd the way down on the right).


I already POSTED ALL THAT.

:0
 
2014-05-15 04:41:23 PM  

maxheck: The buck stops... somewhere else.


The buck should stop with whoever was actually negligent.  Pretty simple really.
 
2014-05-15 04:42:22 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: already POSTED ALL THAT.

:0


Crap.  Sorry, dude.  That is what I get for not reading the entire thread.
 
2014-05-15 04:47:51 PM  

HeadLever: Magorn: Well there WERE 250 of them and generally, call me cray but I think an occupational health and safety violation is automatically related to a workplace accident particularly a fatal one.

No, a violation is not necessarily the result of an injury or death.  MSHA violations are the result of issues found during mine inspections.  By law, mines have to be inspected a number of times a year, however,injuries at the mine can trigger additional inspections.  Deaths require mandatory investigations and inspections.

If you want to know the nature of the violations at the mine, go visit the MSHA database(about 1/3rd the way down on the right).


And to add on:
As Headlever and I said, mines are inspected automatically REGARDLESS of accidents by MSHA.  Unlike OSHA, which only shoes up if there's a complaint or accident, underground mines see MSHA four times a year and surface twice a year.

The regulations are also a bit broad, as well.  There's a fair amount left to the interpretation of the inspector, who can also write a ticket per instance of violation.

For example, let's say you have three trash cans in the lunchroom, none of which has a lid on it (any trash can that has food waste in it is required to have a lid).  That's three tickets there, if the inspector so chooses.
 
2014-05-15 04:53:08 PM  
HeadLever


maxheck: The buck stops... somewhere else.

The buck should stop with whoever was actually negligent. Pretty simple really.


Defined as what? OSHA? MSHA? The people who voted funding for them? Patriot before or after bankruptcy?

If it's that simple, then explain who is at fault.
 
2014-05-15 04:54:50 PM  

maxheck: HeadLever


maxheck: The buck stops... somewhere else.

The buck should stop with whoever was actually negligent. Pretty simple really.

Defined as what? OSHA? MSHA? The people who voted funding for them? Patriot before or after bankruptcy?

If it's that simple, then explain who is at fault.


Steve.

I totally saw him do it.  They should fine the shiat out of that guy.
 
2014-05-15 05:00:49 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: who can also write a ticket per instance of violation.


On interesting bit of info is that MSHA inspectors have no say in violations.  they are required by law to write up a violation if they see it, no matter how small or how much of a grey area exists in that circumstance.  They do have a bit of leeway in how they categorize the violations, however.
 
2014-05-15 05:01:53 PM  

maxheck: Defined as what? OSHA? MSHA? The people who voted funding for them? Patriot before or after bankruptcy?

If it's that simple, then explain who is at fault.


That will be for the MSHA investigation to find out.

Or Steve.  That guy is a dick.
 
2014-05-15 05:02:11 PM  
 it turns out that WV mine that was the scene of an accidentTuesday that killed two, had a long history of safety violations and MSHA was one step away from seeking a court order to shut it down completely

Of course they were.  Funny how that last step is such a long one where coal mines are involved.
 
2014-05-15 05:03:24 PM  
Satanic_Hamster:

maxheck: HeadLever


maxheck: The buck stops... somewhere else.

The buck should stop with whoever was actually negligent. Pretty simple really.

Defined as what? OSHA? MSHA? The people who voted funding for them? Patriot before or after bankruptcy?

If it's that simple, then explain who is at fault.

Steve.

I totally saw him do it. They should fine the shiat out of that guy.


I didn't get a HARRUMPH outta that guy!

"Harrumph! Harrumph!"

"You watch your ass."
 
2014-05-15 05:36:28 PM  
I'm going to guess here, but the free market mousketeers should back me up here...

There should not be mine accidents, because the invisible hand provides for safety regulations.

There should be no environmental accidents, because the Free Market (PHUHN) makes sure that rivers in WV won't be poisoned. Mine accidents won't happen because...

Well, consumers will go elsewhere if they don't like past deaths and poisoned rivers.

Or not.
 
2014-05-15 05:36:51 PM  

Glockenspiel Hero: haemaker: I don't see a problem here... Job creation is job creation.

Exactly- two jobs just got created in the mining industry, plus additional work for the various lawyers.  Just think of how many more jobs we could create without the various mine regulations.

/Sadly, I suspect there are people who actually think this way.


You might find a few working at Kinder Morgan.

'[...] the oil company argued oil spills "can have both positive and negative effects on local and regional economies," because of the economic benefits brought on by clean-up efforts.'
 
2014-05-15 05:49:20 PM  
Ivo Shandor:

Glockenspiel Hero: haemaker: I don't see a problem here... Job creation is job creation.

Exactly- two jobs just got created in the mining industry, plus additional work for the various lawyers. Just think of how many more jobs we could create without the various mine regulations.

/Sadly, I suspect there are people who actually think this way.

You might find a few working at Kinder Morgan.

'[...] the oil company argued oil spills "can have both positive and negative effects on local and regional economies," because of the economic benefits brought on by clean-up efforts.'


Back in the 90's I had a friend who worked with retarded kids in Sudbury, Ontario, one of the nastier heavy-metal cleanup places short of a coal mine. One of the saddest comments she ever said to me was that she'd never be out of work.
 
2014-05-15 06:01:11 PM  

HeadLever: On interesting bit of info is that MSHA inspectors have no say in violations. they are required by law to write up a violation if they see it, no matter how small or how much of a grey area exists in that circumstance. They do have a bit of leeway in how they categorize the violations, however.


In theory.

They're not required to write everything under the same violation.  So if you have three damaged guards in one area, they can write all three under one ticket if they so choose.
 
2014-05-15 06:08:42 PM  

LazyMedia: West Virginia is what the west would be if we gave all the federal land over to local control. Two words: mountaintop removal.


You silly libtard. Once the free market has removed all those mountaintops West Virginia can become a hotbed for grain and livestock production, just like Nebraska and Kansas. The Appalachians are standing in the way of prosperity and freedom!
 
2014-05-15 06:23:15 PM  
Whenever I see people going "Oh, X process isn't so bad, even though they are secretive and unregulated..."

I think of Minimata.

That might have been an extreme case, but the same sort of sentiments were involved.... Pride in your region, a Company Town, and just corporate patriotism. Ain't no one would take those people's jobs from them!

Fracking sort of worries me for the same reasons.
 
2014-05-15 06:27:51 PM  

img.fark.net

Used to be a good sized hill there.

 
2014-05-15 06:38:04 PM  
Ah....clean SAFE coal
 
2014-05-15 06:46:48 PM  
Do those disgusting excuses for human beings have anything to do with this?

truthhugger.files.wordpress.com

Unfortunately, the slimy politicians just love those sweet, sweet campaign contributions.

Farkin' old white guys.
 
2014-05-15 07:16:17 PM  

HeadLever: Satanic_Hamster: who can also write a ticket per instance of violation.

On interesting bit of info is that MSHA inspectors have no say in violations.  they are required by law to write up a violation if they see it, no matter how small or how much of a grey area exists in that circumstance.  They do have a bit of leeway in how they categorize the violations, however.


They say that, but I've never seen one yet cite a company for lack of wearing a safety belt under 56.15005 while wearing a fall harness.  Per the letter of the law, a harness does not meet the minimum standard, because they do not have belts.

I wish MSHA would/could spend their time running the bad operators out of business, and let the good ones get on with their safety programs that truly do save lives, instead of treating us all like all we care about is killing miners.

 Some mine inspections take upwards of a month to complete, so 250 citations over 80 days or so is just 3 citations a day, which isn't bad. An inspector can write a citation for anything, pretty much, even if it's not against the law.  MSHA inspectors are the second or third most powerful federal agency in the US.  When they write a citation, you MUST fix the "problem", even if there isn't one.  If he says "You need to paint all your handrails yellow", then before he's done with you, all your handrails must be painted yellow.  Or else, he can escalate the citation, and eventually, close down your mine.  Oh, and when he does that, you pay all your employees, even with your mine closed.

I also guarantee, if I inspected your workplace using the MSHA standards, I could write citations, all day long.  I doubt most workplaces in America could pass an MSHA inspection, let alone 2 or 4 of them a year.
 
2014-05-15 08:37:15 PM  

graeylin: Some mine inspections take upwards of a month to complete, so 250 citations over 80 days or so is just 3 citations a day, which isn't bad. An inspector can write a citation for anything, pretty much, even if it's not against the law. MSHA inspectors are the second or third most powerful federal agency in the US. When they write a citation, you MUST fix the "problem", even if there isn't one. If he says "You need to paint all your handrails yellow", then before he's done with you, all your handrails must be painted yellow. Or else, he can escalate the citation, and eventually, close down your mine. Oh, and when he does that, you pay all your employees, even with your mine closed.

I also guarantee, if I inspected your workplace using the MSHA standards, I could write citations, all day long. I doubt most workplaces in America could pass an MSHA inspection, let alone 2 or 4 of them a year.


I once got a citation for a refrigerator.

hz00.i.aliimg.com

Like that.  For "exposed wiring."
 
2014-05-15 09:59:38 PM  

graeylin: I also guarantee, if I inspected your workplace using the MSHA standards, I could write citations, all day long.  I doubt most workplaces in America could pass an MSHA inspection, let alone 2 or 4 of them a year.


I have worked in mines and I know full well what MSHA is. Was not aware of the Belt vs Harness issue though.

In any case, those that complain about OSHA usually get a good laughing at.
 
2014-05-15 10:01:42 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Like that.  For "exposed wiring."


I always find it pretty funny to watch the fur fly when word gets out that a MSHA inspector is on site.  Reminds me of the parents coming home to a high school kegger.
 
2014-05-15 10:10:27 PM  
Lack of regulation IS a path to job creation. Two more mine jobs were just created.....
 
2014-05-15 10:37:46 PM  

graeylin: I also guarantee, if I inspected your workplace using the MSHA standards, I could write citations, all day long.  I doubt most workplaces in America could pass an MSHA inspection, let alone 2 or 4 of them a year.


Are you saying that my office is going to collapse? Be straight with me.

Also, I got a weird feeling that these companies operations trade hands frequently like some kind of shell game. Am I paranoid?
 
2014-05-15 10:38:56 PM  
 companies operations

I couldn't decide and now look where I am.
 
2014-05-16 12:07:05 AM  

morg: graeylin: I also guarantee, if I inspected your workplace using the MSHA standards, I could write citations, all day long.  I doubt most workplaces in America could pass an MSHA inspection, let alone 2 or 4 of them a year.

Are you saying that my office is going to collapse? Be straight with me.

Also, I got a weird feeling that these companies operations trade hands frequently like some kind of shell game. Am I paranoid?


It's possible.  I have no idea of the statistics, but I would place money that more office buildings, factories, etc. collapse every year than mines.

I do know that there are more occupational deaths in CHURCHES than in Mines every year in the US, but there's no "church safety agency".
 
2014-05-16 10:00:52 AM  

graeylin: HeadLever: Satanic_Hamster: who can also write a ticket per instance of violation.

On interesting bit of info is that MSHA inspectors have no say in violations.  they are required by law to write up a violation if they see it, no matter how small or how much of a grey area exists in that circumstance.  They do have a bit of leeway in how they categorize the violations, however.

They say that, but I've never seen one yet cite a company for lack of wearing a safety belt under 56.15005 while wearing a fall harness.  Per the letter of the law, a harness does not meet the minimum standard, because they do not have belts.

I wish MSHA would/could spend their time running the bad operators out of business, and let the good ones get on with their safety programs that truly do save lives, instead of treating us all like all we care about is killing miners.

 Some mine inspections take upwards of a month to complete, so 250 citations over 80 days or so is just 3 citations a day, which isn't bad. An inspector can write a citation for anything, pretty much, even if it's not against the law.  MSHA inspectors are the second or third most powerful federal agency in the US.  When they write a citation, you MUST fix the "problem", even if there isn't one.  If he says "You need to paint all your handrails yellow", then before he's done with you, all your handrails must be painted yellow.  Or else, he can escalate the citation, and eventually, close down your mine.  Oh, and when he does that, you pay all your employees, even with your mine closed.

I also guarantee, if I inspected your workplace using the MSHA standards, I could write citations, all day long.  I doubt most workplaces in America could pass an MSHA inspection, let alone 2 or 4 of them a year.


Where my father works, the state wrote a citation for have dust on the vending machine in the bathhouse (which is above ground).
 
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