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(Chicago Trib)   GM is the worst car manufacturer in the US, which is like being the worst form of cancer   (chicagotribune.com) divider line 214
    More: Obvious, Nissan Motor Co., United States, worst car manufacturer, General Motors Co., payment protection insurance, automakers, Volkswagen AG, cancers  
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6514 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 May 2014 at 2:08 PM (14 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



214 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-05-12 10:12:04 AM
I can see it... most of their cars have the aesthetic styling of a pancreas.
 
2014-05-12 11:33:14 AM

Tr0mBoNe: I can see it... most of their cars have the aesthetic styling of a pancreas.


It's so frustrating that for a while the only semi-affordable EVs that didn't look like death traps were the Volt and the Leaf because I've never driven a Chevy I didn't hate within the first minute of stepping into the vehicle, the cabin is always poorly designed. Every time I step into a Toyota I feel like they built the car just for me. And with the Leaf it was merely an issue with distance - definitely a good commuting car but only 70 miles under less than ideal conditions is not good.

Fords are kind of in between, and Nissans always feel great except for the fact I always feel they have high center of gravity and I could flip them in an instant.

I won't have money to buy a new car for 3 years but then I'm definitely going with an EV or hybrid EV if it's within affordability - the Teslas are looking amazing.
 
2014-05-12 02:11:17 PM
I'll be first to say they suck.
they suck at design, and they sick at service.
They sold me a POS lemon and fark them to hell and fark the assholes that used MY farking tax money to bail their sorry asses out. 
That's communism at the worst.
Farking assholes.

Hope they rot in farking hell.

Never will ever own a POS GM product again.
And Yes, I pay farking cash when I buy a car.
 
2014-05-12 02:12:40 PM
One bit of good news for GM. When the list of car makers was expanded to include the three German auto companies, which have a far less significant market share in the U.S., suppliers said Daimler AG's Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen AG were even harder to deal with.

See, the krauts are bigger jerks to their suppliers than Government Motors even. Germans!

/BMW did well on the survey, because they are jolly Bavarians.
 
2014-05-12 02:13:02 PM

bdub77: Tr0mBoNe: I can see it... most of their cars have the aesthetic styling of a pancreas.

It's so frustrating that for a while the only semi-affordable EVs that didn't look like death traps were the Volt and the Leaf because I've never driven a Chevy I didn't hate within the first minute of stepping into the vehicle, the cabin is always poorly designed. Every time I step into a Toyota I feel like they built the car just for me. And with the Leaf it was merely an issue with distance - definitely a good commuting car but only 70 miles under less than ideal conditions is not good.

Fords are kind of in between, and Nissans always feel great except for the fact I always feel they have high center of gravity and I could flip them in an instant.

I won't have money to buy a new car for 3 years but then I'm definitely going with an EV or hybrid EV if it's within affordability - the Teslas are looking amazing.


Or, if you really care about the environment, and our dwindling oil supplies, and all that stuff, you could buy a used car.

I won't even get into the economics of buying a new car. Suffice it to say, a new car is pretty much the worst way to spend your money.
 
2014-05-12 02:13:07 PM
Not Chrysler!?!?!!?

Or, are they not considered 'US Manufacturer' anymore?
 
2014-05-12 02:14:25 PM
FWIW I like Buick's ad campaign where everyone is shocked that the Buick is a Buick. Clever and well-done.

That said, I would not buy a car from a US company unless I was looking for something very, very cheap (almost disposable) and I couldn't find something from an Asian company that fit the bill. The odds that I will make a major "investment" in a US car in my lifetime is near to zero.
 
2014-05-12 02:15:50 PM
The only GM car I've ever owned was a very elderly, totally unrestored 1974 Nova (which I loved). I've rented a few in recent years, and Jesus God, those are some awful cars. The Aveo MUST have been designed by Chinese spies bent on destroying American industry. It was as bad as a '70s Chevette, which was my previous bench mark for worst car in history (including the '80s Hyundai Excel).
 
2014-05-12 02:16:12 PM
My father swears by them, but they are the only vehicles he has ever driven.  He still remembers the company as it was in the 70s and 80s when they produced decent minivans that were the lifeblood of his business.  My own experience with a GM is that it was the only car I ever owned that couldn't make it to a hundred thousand, before accumulating so many engine problems, that I had to practically sell it at scrap prices.  My other cars have been Jap cars that have gotten over 200,000 miles without a major  hiccup.  They were all made in America too, by American workers.  I could care less where the board of directors live.
 
2014-05-12 02:16:19 PM
I've owned 3 GM cars.
An Oldsmabile Delta 88.  It was a deisel.  It was also a royal pain in the ass.
A 1972 Pontiac Firebird.  I'll give it this much.  It was fast and powerful.
The car I have now.  A 2007 Chevy Aveo.  The most amusing part about this is that it's not actually a Chevy.  It's a South Korean Deawoo.  Everywhere else in the world, that's how it's sold.  Why it's a Chevy here, I really don't know.

In any case, of the GMs I've owned, it's the absolute best!
 
2014-05-12 02:17:08 PM
GM sucks, Chrysler is a very close second.
 
2014-05-12 02:17:22 PM
Gf has a 2014 Cadillac ATS and loves it...
 
2014-05-12 02:18:09 PM

bdub77: Every time I step into a Toyota I feel like they built the car just for me


I've never driven a Toyota that I like. They're practical, economical, well designed and incredibly boring.
 
2014-05-12 02:18:14 PM

realmolo: bdub77: Tr0mBoNe: I can see it... most of their cars have the aesthetic styling of a pancreas.

It's so frustrating that for a while the only semi-affordable EVs that didn't look like death traps were the Volt and the Leaf because I've never driven a Chevy I didn't hate within the first minute of stepping into the vehicle, the cabin is always poorly designed. Every time I step into a Toyota I feel like they built the car just for me. And with the Leaf it was merely an issue with distance - definitely a good commuting car but only 70 miles under less than ideal conditions is not good.

Fords are kind of in between, and Nissans always feel great except for the fact I always feel they have high center of gravity and I could flip them in an instant.

I won't have money to buy a new car for 3 years but then I'm definitely going with an EV or hybrid EV if it's within affordability - the Teslas are looking amazing.

Or, if you really care about the environment, and our dwindling oil supplies, and all that stuff, you could buy a used car.

I won't even get into the economics of buying a new car. Suffice it to say, a new car is pretty much the worst way to spend your money.


So, my '99 Jag XK8 is saving the planet? Sweet!
 
2014-05-12 02:18:39 PM
To be honest, GM can go f*ck themselves. They are the reason why we no longer have trolley cars as mass transit and why we don't have much in the way of high speed or light rail (they bought up all the trolley companies in the 40's & 50's and then converted over to buses. All made by GM of course).

www.autogallery.org.ru

And then they have the unmitigated gall to run asshole ads like this to discourage people into riding buses and buy huge gas-guzzlers instead to prove how awesome they are to everyone.

rebuildingfoundationsblog.files.wordpress.com

And riding a bicycle? I bet you're a commie AND  pedophile. Either way, you're a loser. Loser commie pedo!
images.thetruthaboutcars.com


And let's not forget how they pulled up stakes and left Detroit to fend for itself.
www.islandbreath.org

So f*ck GM hard! They are like a million Comcasts with a Koch Brothers center.
 
2014-05-12 02:18:55 PM

vudukungfu: I'll be first to say they suck.
they suck at design, and they sick at service.
They sold me a POS lemon and fark them to hell and fark the assholes that used MY farking tax money to bail their sorry asses out. 
That's communism at the worst.
Farking assholes.

Hope they rot in farking hell.

Never will ever own a POS GM product again.
And Yes, I pay farking cash when I buy a car.


fyi, they paid it back

not white-knighting...only gm i would buy is a vette...just stating fact

ObscureNameHere: Not Chrysler!?!?!!?

Or, are they not considered 'US Manufacturer' anymore?


not that i've ever been a big fan of chrysler*, but they officially died, in my opinion, when they got themselves bought by fiat! now we have these ugly little 500s every farking where!

*i've owned 2 chryslers...one eagle summit, one dodge avenger...ONLY reason i went with either was the mitsubishi engine
 
2014-05-12 02:19:03 PM

vudukungfu: That's communism at the worst.


No, it is the new Socialism where we privatize the profits and the risk are socialized. All those libby libs wanted socialism well guess what? You got it, bastard American style.
 
2014-05-12 02:21:00 PM
My wife's GM car was recalled. She was actually in an accident in 2005 in it which is more or less identical to what the described problems were (tried to break quickly after a car merged in front of her and slammed on their breaks and her power steering/power breakings locked up).

They said it would be about two weeks top fix the ignition, but it was actually more like six and a half. When we got it back, her speakers now "pop" whenever she engages her ignition, her audio system only works about half the time, and her passenger side windows don't work. When we brought it back to have them look at it they basically said "Well, the ignition isn't really close to those systems, so it couldn't have been our fault." and refused to do anything other than tell us it'd be around a grand to try to fix it.

Soooooo, yeah, going to try to talk to a manger at the dealership this afternoon about that, but I think we've more or less decided we're never buying a GM car again.
 
2014-05-12 02:21:05 PM

Voiceofreason01: bdub77: Every time I step into a Toyota I feel like they built the car just for me

I've never driven a Toyota that I like. They're practical, economical, well designed and incredibly boring.


The Corolla SR-5 from the mid-'70s had a biatchin' cabin design; it was like a fighter cockpit with all the dials and stuff angled toward you. Other than that, though, yeah, they're pretty dull. For some reason, I prefer Hondas; they're pretty boring, too, but there's a slight Apple kind of a vibe to them.
 
2014-05-12 02:21:07 PM

bungle_jr: fyi, they paid it back


FYI they should NEVER HAVE GOTTEN IT IN THE FIRST PLACE!

They failed. They failed be cause they SUCKASS and they deserved to die DIE DIE

They should have been buried under the more successful, less sucky competition.


Fark them in the ass.
 
2014-05-12 02:21:53 PM
Why can't America have nice things?

Because Americans scare each other.
 
2014-05-12 02:21:53 PM

ObscureNameHere: Not Chrysler!?!?!!?

Or, are they not considered 'US Manufacturer' anymore?


It never ceases to surprise me that other companies beat Chrysler to the bottom of the list. My grandfather is a loyal Chrysler owner, so I get to see the poor quality first hand. For decades I've observed interiors that deteriorate and electronics that are inoperable after only a few years, bodies that rust from the inside out, etc.
 
2014-05-12 02:22:34 PM
well, fark I'm screwed. GM seems to be the only car maker that can make a small car that I can drive long distances
 
2014-05-12 02:22:43 PM
Well... Never buy the first model year of a GM product.
 
2014-05-12 02:22:57 PM

vudukungfu: I'll be first to say they suck.
they suck at design, and they sick at service.
They sold me a POS lemon and fark them to hell and fark the assholes that used MY farking tax money to bail their sorry asses out. 
That's communism at the worst.
Farking assholes.

Hope they rot in farking hell.

Never will ever own a POS GM product again.
And Yes, I pay farking cash when I buy a car.


I'm never quite sure when you're serious. Either way, second this comment as it also happened to me. Assholes in that company can rot in hell for all I care.
 
2014-05-12 02:23:28 PM
I'm getting a kick because i just bought a Jeep Grand Cherokee.
 
2014-05-12 02:23:47 PM
No issues with my 2012 convertible camaro. Bought it with 12.5k miles on it. Just passed 25k.

All these poo-poo GM threads though, man they make me worry that issues are going to hit me like a truck very, very soon.
 
2014-05-12 02:23:54 PM

vudukungfu: They should have been buried under the more successful, less sucky competition.


All of the competition is subsidized by their home countries. When a car company dies, you don't get more and better competition, you just get one fewer car company.
 
2014-05-12 02:24:08 PM

LazyMedia: The only GM car I've ever owned was a very elderly, totally unrestored 1974 Nova (which I loved). I've rented a few in recent years, and Jesus God, those are some awful cars. The Aveo MUST have been designed by Chinese spies bent on destroying American industry. It was as bad as a '70s Chevette, which was my previous bench mark for worst car in history (including the '80s Hyundai Excel).


Actually it was Korean


I suspect from Best Korea, not lesser Korea from looking at the interior
 
2014-05-12 02:24:23 PM
Best car i ever owned was a Nissan Frontier truck. Zero problems...strong V6, and a 6-speed manual.
 
2014-05-12 02:24:52 PM

Slaves2Darkness: All those libby libs wanted socialism well guess what? You got it, bastard American style.


I'm not a Farking LIBBY LIB. I only LIVE IN VERMONT!.
I'm FOR THE DEATH PENALTY, for shiat's sakes.
Jesus jumping christ on a pogo stick.
Fark this whole farking country.
It's entirely populated with too many ignorant yayhoos.
Left, right, middle of the road, it doesn't matter what side they are on.
Jesus farking christ, if the farmer down the road fark up and farks his chickens to death, we don't give him a replacement farking farked to death chicken subsidy, now, do we?
DO WE?!!


/Oh shait.
//Please tell me we don't
///Tell me only Fox News is profiting from farking chickens.
 
2014-05-12 02:25:15 PM

Voiceofreason01: bdub77: Every time I step into a Toyota I feel like they built the car just for me

I've never driven a Toyota that I like. They're practical, economical, well designed and incredibly boring.


I'll add, built for people who aren't over 6'4"
 
2014-05-12 02:25:26 PM

The more you eat the more you fart: Gf has a 2014 Cadillac ATS and loves it...


We all glad to hear your girlfriend "Loves it"

But what does she think about the Caddy?
 
2014-05-12 02:26:39 PM

bleeblahbloo: I'm never quite sure when you're serious.


Ask the local used car dealers. They all know when come on a lot to kick tires, it means I was there when they were at church already kicking tires, and have made up my mind. And no, I don't finance cars. I pay up front.
 
2014-05-12 02:26:44 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2014-05-12 02:26:47 PM

vudukungfu: bungle_jr: fyi, they paid it back

FYI they should NEVER HAVE GOTTEN IT IN THE FIRST PLACE!

They failed. They failed be cause they SUCKASS and they deserved to die DIE DIE

They should have been buried under the more successful, less sucky competition.

Fark them in the ass.


i do agree with you
but i still have to give the kudos for getting it paid back...whether they deserved it in the first place or not

at least they didn't get bought out by scania or peugot, or some other shiatty euro brand like chrysler did with fiat
 
2014-05-12 02:27:49 PM
This is not a repeat of 1974, 1984, 1994, or 2004...

vudukungfu: Slaves2Darkness: All those libby libs wanted socialism well guess what? You got it, bastard American style.

I'm not a Farking LIBBY LIB. I only LIVE IN VERMONT!.
I'm FOR THE DEATH PENALTY, for shiat's sakes.
Jesus jumping christ on a pogo stick.
Fark this whole farking country.
It's entirely populated with too many ignorant yayhoos.
Left, right, middle of the road, it doesn't matter what side they are on.
Jesus farking christ, if the farmer down the road fark up and farks his chickens to death, we don't give him a replacement farking farked to death chicken subsidy, now, do we?
DO WE?!!


/Oh shait.
//Please tell me we don't
///Tell me only Fox News is profiting from farking chickens.


Please don't feed the trolls.
 
2014-05-12 02:28:14 PM

loonatic112358: LazyMedia: The only GM car I've ever owned was a very elderly, totally unrestored 1974 Nova (which I loved). I've rented a few in recent years, and Jesus God, those are some awful cars. The Aveo MUST have been designed by Chinese spies bent on destroying American industry. It was as bad as a '70s Chevette, which was my previous bench mark for worst car in history (including the '80s Hyundai Excel).

Actually it was Korean


I suspect from Best Korea, not lesser Korea from looking at the interior


That's GM for you. Ford needs a small car, they go partner up with Mazda and get something half-decent. GM needs a small car, they switch from Toyota to Daewoo. They make fishing reels, for crissake.
 
2014-05-12 02:28:28 PM

ObscureNameHere: Not Chrysler!?!?!!?

Or, are they not considered 'US Manufacturer' anymore?


Are there really any US manufacturers anymore? Chrysler is now owned by Fiat. GMs are branded as Holdens in Aussieland and Vauxhalls in Europe. Fords have had a strong market share in Europe and Latin America for decades now. And all 3 have plants outside of the US.
 
2014-05-12 02:28:41 PM
No way, Tier 1 customers are generally assholes that use their volume and monetary influx to a smaller company throw their weight around to get things the way they want?

Never owned a GM... their cars reek of middle management boredom.
 
2014-05-12 02:28:54 PM
You all realize this article is about how difficult it is for GM's suppliers to deal with them, right?  It's got nothing to do with consumers.

Not disputing that their end product is crap, just sayin'
 
2014-05-12 02:29:08 PM

hitmanric: ObscureNameHere: Not Chrysler!?!?!!?

Or, are they not considered 'US Manufacturer' anymore?

Are there really any US manufacturers anymore? Chrysler is now owned by Fiat. GMs are branded as Holdens in Aussieland and Vauxhalls in Europe. Fords have had a strong market share in Europe and Latin America for decades now. And all 3 have plants outside of the US.


Nissan trucks = made in USA.
 
2014-05-12 02:29:45 PM

The_EliteOne: No issues with my 2012 convertible camaro. Bought it with 12.5k miles on it. Just passed 25k.

All these poo-poo GM threads though, man they make me worry that issues are going to hit me like a truck very, very soon.


It's always right after the factory warranty expires.
 
2014-05-12 02:29:54 PM

vudukungfu: bleeblahbloo: I'm never quite sure when you're serious.

Ask the local used car dealers. They all know when come on a lot to kick tires, it means I was there when they were at church already kicking tires, and have made up my mind. And no, I don't finance cars. I pay up front.


No, i meant your story about buying the shiatty car. After all, you didn't say CSB. Either way, I agree with your sentiment that GM sucks and should DIAF.
 
2014-05-12 02:30:40 PM

debug: You all realize this article is about how difficult it is for GM's suppliers to deal with them, right?  It's got nothing to do with consumers.

Not disputing that their end product is crap, just sayin'


Aw, shiat, we've got someone in here who actually read the linked article.

/Everyone hide!
 
2014-05-12 02:30:50 PM

bungle_jr: vudukungfu: bungle_jr: fyi, they paid it back

FYI they should NEVER HAVE GOTTEN IT IN THE FIRST PLACE!

They failed. They failed be cause they SUCKASS and they deserved to die DIE DIE

They should have been buried under the more successful, less sucky competition.

Fark them in the ass.

i do agree with you
but i still have to give the kudos for getting it paid back...whether they deserved it in the first place or not

at least they didn't get bought out by scania or peugot, or some other shiatty euro brand like chrysler did with fiat


I figure Chrysler has a few more years of fark uppedness to overcome


dumped by daimler, then by cerberus now owned by Fiat


well at least it wasn't Chinese like Volvo
 
2014-05-12 02:31:09 PM
I had a ford Edge two years ago.. It was a sleek and comfortable to drive. Ironically enough, driving it was so comfortable, that it induced me  to sleep. The car was so quite and does not gyrate at high speed., no freaking sound either. Eventually when I moved. I exchanged with asian car, that doesn't make me sleep while driving.
 
2014-05-12 02:31:30 PM

vudukungfu: Slaves2Darkness: All those libby libs wanted socialism well guess what? You got it, bastard American style.

I'm not a Farking LIBBY LIB. I only LIVE IN VERMONT!.
I'm FOR THE DEATH PENALTY, for shiat's sakes.
Jesus jumping christ on a pogo stick.
Fark this whole farking country.
It's entirely populated with too many ignorant yayhoos.
Left, right, middle of the road, it doesn't matter what side they are on.
Jesus farking christ, if the farmer down the road fark up and farks his chickens to death, we don't give him a replacement farking farked to death chicken subsidy, now, do we?
DO WE?!!


/Oh shait.
//Please tell me we don't
///Tell me only Fox News is profiting from farking chickens.


Just another FOINE example of why I have you favorited....
 
2014-05-12 02:31:43 PM

TV's Vinnie: To be honest, GM can go f*ck themselves. They are the reason why we no longer have trolley cars as mass transit and why we don't have much in the way of high speed or light rail (they bought up all the trolley companies in the 40's & 50's and then converted over to buses. All made by GM of course).

[www.autogallery.org.ru image 519x274]

And then they have the unmitigated gall to run asshole ads like this to discourage people into riding buses and buy huge gas-guzzlers instead to prove how awesome they are to everyone.

[rebuildingfoundationsblog.files.wordpress.com image 313x400]


Have you ever actually used a street trolley? Not light rail or separate-grade trolleys, but rail in street trolleys?

Because god help you if they ever need to work on the street -- there's no re-routing that trolley.
 
2014-05-12 02:31:45 PM
What I find weird is everybody bashing GM cars and they have been the best, longest lasting cars I've ever owned. The Ford's, three of them, I've owned spontaneously combusted. Itis a very weird sight to look across the hood of your car and realize the paint is peeling.

The Mitsubishi Galant I bought new did not make three years before the dealer decided to void the warranty over electrical problems. My lawyer got that contract voided and Mitsu had to pay penalties, but then that was when they were writing fraudulent contracts and pretty much the judge was fed up with their shenanigans.

Of the three GM Cars I've owned Corsica, Monte Carlo, and my current Cobalt all have surpassed 100,000 miles, sadly both were totalled right around 150,000 miles. The Corsica by my now ex-wife and the Monte was taken out by a drunk driver while parked. My 05 Cobalt is currently at 140,000 miles and I imagine I'll get another 4 years out of it. If you keep up on the maintenance, and I don't mean just the oil changes, Chevy's hold together like any other car. Sadly most people skip on  major maintenance, and then biatch when shiat breaks.

The current ignition switch recall amuses the shiat out of me, because that was one of the first things I noticed about the Cobalt. My knee could catch my key chain just right and turn the car off. Only ever happened once, and that was when I realized what could happen. Which is why this recall amusues the shiat out of me, because really how much of farking moron do you have to be to do that more than once?
 
2014-05-12 02:31:48 PM

debug: You all realize this article is about how difficult it is for GM's suppliers to deal with them, right?  It's got nothing to do with consumers.

Not disputing that their end product is crap, just sayin'


So they get the shiatty parts?
 
2014-05-12 02:32:33 PM

bdub77: Tr0mBoNe: I can see it... most of their cars have the aesthetic styling of a pancreas.

It's so frustrating that for a while the only semi-affordable EVs that didn't look like death traps were the Volt and the Leaf because I've never driven a Chevy I didn't hate within the first minute of stepping into the vehicle, the cabin is always poorly designed. Every time I step into a Toyota I feel like they built the car just for me. And with the Leaf it was merely an issue with distance - definitely a good commuting car but only 70 miles under less than ideal conditions is not good.

Fords are kind of in between, and Nissans always feel great except for the fact I always feel they have high center of gravity and I could flip them in an instant.

I won't have money to buy a new car for 3 years but then I'm definitely going with an EV or hybrid EV if it's within affordability - the Teslas are looking amazing.


http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2014/i3/BMWi3/defaul t. aspx?from=/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2014/BMWi/BMWi3RD.aspx&return=/St andard/Content/Vehicles/2014/BMWi/BMWi3RD.aspx

Do the research.  You will be amazed.  With the 600 cc scooter engine as backup you don't need to worry about range issues.  There are little nuances of eco that others just don't think about.  For instance the factory the carbon fiber panels are made in is 100% powered by hydroelectric power.
 
2014-05-12 02:33:16 PM
www.techienews.co.uk
 
2014-05-12 02:33:21 PM

AeAe: I'm getting a kick because i just bought a Jeep Grand Cherokee.


I'm sorry. I hope your life insurance is paid up.
 
2014-05-12 02:33:28 PM

LazyMedia: All of the competition is subsidized by their home countries. When a car company dies, you don't get more and better competition, you just get one fewer car company.


^This

I don't think people know how awful Toyota was in its early days. (They narrowly avoided bankruptcy and needed government support to put them back on track.)
 
2014-05-12 02:33:40 PM

hitmanric: ObscureNameHere: Not Chrysler!?!?!!?

Or, are they not considered 'US Manufacturer' anymore?

Are there really any US manufacturers anymore? Chrysler is now owned by Fiat. GMs are branded as Holdens in Aussieland and Vauxhalls in Europe. Fords have had a strong market share in Europe and Latin America for decades now. And all 3 have plants outside of the US.


Ford has had separate operations in the British Commonwealth since 1909. GM bought British Vauxhall in 1925, and German Opel in 1929. No international corporation gives a rat's ass about where it was founded, or where it's headquartered, or where most of its customers and employees live. All car manufacturers are from the planet Money.
 
2014-05-12 02:33:50 PM

debug: You all realize this article is about how difficult it is for GM's suppliers to deal with them, right?  It's got nothing to do with consumers.

Not disputing that their end product is crap, just sayin'


Yes. I've heard how difficult it is for systems integrators or anyone in the factory automation biz to make money supplying to *any* company in the auto industry. You almost never get that final 10% payment after the job's done.
 
2014-05-12 02:34:22 PM

realmolo: Or, if you really care about the environment, and our dwindling oil supplies, and all that stuff, you could buy a used car.

I won't even get into the economics of buying a new car. Suffice it to say, a new car is pretty much the worst way to spend your money.


Negative.  Don't want somebody's leftovers when I depend on my car daily without fault.  What price piece of mind?

I buy my cars to last 10 years and 250-300k miles, then put them out for resale.  With improved gas mileage and emissions, I'm saving the earth....
 
2014-05-12 02:34:52 PM

The more you eat the more you fart: hitmanric: ObscureNameHere: Not Chrysler!?!?!!?

Or, are they not considered 'US Manufacturer' anymore?

Are there really any US manufacturers anymore? Chrysler is now owned by Fiat. GMs are branded as Holdens in Aussieland and Vauxhalls in Europe. Fords have had a strong market share in Europe and Latin America for decades now. And all 3 have plants outside of the US.

Nissan trucks = made in USA.


85% of Hyundais that are sold in the USA are also built in the USA.  They are the 'most American' car company.
 
2014-05-12 02:35:00 PM

bungle_jr: vudukungfu: I'll be first to say they suck.
they suck at design, and they sick at service.
They sold me a POS lemon and fark them to hell and fark the assholes that used MY farking tax money to bail their sorry asses out.
That's communism at the worst.
Farking assholes.

Hope they rot in farking hell.

Never will ever own a POS GM product again.
And Yes, I pay farking cash when I buy a car.

fyi, they paid it back

not white-knighting...only gm i would buy is a vette...just stating fact

ObscureNameHere: Not Chrysler!?!?!!?

Or, are they not considered 'US Manufacturer' anymore?

not that i've ever been a big fan of chrysler*, but they officially died, in my opinion, when they got themselves bought by fiat! now we have these ugly little 500s every farking where!

*i've owned 2 chryslers...one eagle summit, one dodge avenger...ONLY reason i went with either was the mitsubishi engine

 
2014-05-12 02:35:00 PM

vudukungfu: Jesus farking christ, if the farmer down the road fark up and farks his chickens to death, we don't give him a replacement farking farked to death chicken subsidy, now, do we?
DO WE?!!


Of course we do, why else do you think we have a Farm Bill?
 
2014-05-12 02:35:43 PM

JackieRabbit: This is not a repeat of 1974, 1984, 1994, or 2004...

vudukungfu: Slaves2Darkness: All those libby libs wanted socialism well guess what? You got it, bastard American style.

I'm not a Farking LIBBY LIB. I only LIVE IN VERMONT!.
I'm FOR THE DEATH PENALTY, for shiat's sakes.
Jesus jumping christ on a pogo stick.
Fark this whole farking country.
It's entirely populated with too many ignorant yayhoos.
Left, right, middle of the road, it doesn't matter what side they are on.
Jesus farking christ, if the farmer down the road fark up and farks his chickens to death, we don't give him a replacement farking farked to death chicken subsidy, now, do we?
DO WE?!!


/Oh shait.
//Please tell me we don't
///Tell me only Fox News is profiting from farking chickens.

Please don't feed the trolls.


PLSHSHSHSHSH. Feeding the trolls and being fed in turn is the only reason I come to Fark anymore.
 
2014-05-12 02:36:21 PM
Most people I know drive full size pickup trucks. I drive a Chevrolet Silverado myself. Happy with it.
 
2014-05-12 02:36:30 PM

Flargan: LazyMedia: All of the competition is subsidized by their home countries. When a car company dies, you don't get more and better competition, you just get one fewer car company.

^This

I don't think people know how awful Toyota was in its early days. (They narrowly avoided bankruptcy and needed government support to put them back on track.)


At one time Japan made the cheap crap, now they make they make good stuff, then korea and taiwan made cheap crap now they don't now china does, except they're getting better


Eventually we'll run out of other countries and it'll be our turn again
 
2014-05-12 02:36:40 PM
Subby FAIL at drawing analogies.
By your logic is Tesla Motors like the best form of cancer?
 
2014-05-12 02:36:48 PM
1. Who gives a fark what *suppliers* like? They either bid for the business or they don't. And the degree to which GM is a clusterfark should just be priced-in to their bids.

2. Call me crazy, but if you're doing the whole "free market" thing properly, your suppliers are *going* to dislike dealing with you. You'll be pressing them hard to trim their own margins, you'll be holding their feet to the fire on contract terms and performance, you'll be putting them back into merits-based competition for each new piece of work. These are all perfectly straightforward and reasonable things you would assume everyone would do -- but suppliers *hate* it. They like to win business on soft-money and sleazy junkets. They like to get the next job on the basis of a "relationship" that isn't at all related to their actual prior performance.

So I'm not particularly convinced that GM should give a flying fark about this 'image problem'.
 
2014-05-12 02:38:59 PM
FTA...

Suppliers gave GM low marks on all kinds of key measures, including its overall trustworthiness, its communication skills, and its protection of intellectual property.

The suppliers also said that GM was the automaker least likely to allow them to raise prices to recoup unexpected material cost increases.

"As a result, GM is now the least preferred customer of suppliers," PPI says.

Based on what questions were asked, and the responses I'd say GM was a pretty good company to its customers but wasn't letting the suppliers SCREW everyone when they felt like it....Go GM.
 
2014-05-12 02:39:08 PM

wumpus: Most people I know drive full size pickup trucks. I drive a Chevrolet Silverado myself. Happy with it.


I've been driving a GMC sierra for the last week


damn nice truck, if I wanted a truck


I like getting 30-40 MPG in my vehicles though
 
2014-05-12 02:44:57 PM

bdub77: I won't have money to buy a new car for 3 years but then I'm definitely going with an EV or hybrid EV if it's within affordability - the Teslas are looking amazing.


I just went to one of the BMW i3 test drive events - the most expensive small EV on the market, naturally, but none of them are cheap and, like you'd expect, it was very comfortable.  And very out there for a BMW in many ways.

\I'm sticking with my TDI, though.  I do a lot of road tripping, and it's hard to beat 42 mpg highway in a wagon.  It doesn't drive like a boat either - I have high hopes of never being stuck in the third row seating market where all the fun is sucked out of driving.
 
2014-05-12 02:45:51 PM

ObscureNameHere: Not Chrysler!?!?!!?


Yeah, that caught me off guard as well.
 
2014-05-12 02:46:13 PM

AeAe: I'm getting a kick because i just bought a Jeep Grand Cherokee.


Me too. And I love it!
 
2014-05-12 02:48:15 PM

Slaves2Darkness: JackieRabbit: This is not a repeat of 1974, 1984, 1994, or 2004...

vudukungfu: Slaves2Darkness: All those libby libs wanted socialism well guess what? You got it, bastard American style.

I'm not a Farking LIBBY LIB. I only LIVE IN VERMONT!.
I'm FOR THE DEATH PENALTY, for shiat's sakes.
Jesus jumping christ on a pogo stick.
Fark this whole farking country.
It's entirely populated with too many ignorant yayhoos.
Left, right, middle of the road, it doesn't matter what side they are on.
Jesus farking christ, if the farmer down the road fark up and farks his chickens to death, we don't give him a replacement farking farked to death chicken subsidy, now, do we?
DO WE?!!


/Oh shait.
//Please tell me we don't
///Tell me only Fox News is profiting from farking chickens.

Please don't feed the trolls.

PLSHSHSHSHSH. Feeding the trolls and being fed in turn is the only reason I come to Fark anymore.


I have chickens.  I need to look into that subsidy.
 
2014-05-12 02:49:22 PM
I love my Volt.

Driven about 8 thousand miles, put gas in it three times. Drives great, handles well, gotten good support from my dealer for the few minor issues it's had like the outlet cover sticking, and is super comfortable.
 
2014-05-12 02:51:19 PM
Caddies have been rated pretty well over the last decade, Chevy is another story.
 
2014-05-12 02:52:09 PM

mama2tnt: debug: You all realize this article is about how difficult it is for GM's suppliers to deal with them, right?  It's got nothing to do with consumers.

Not disputing that their end product is crap, just sayin'

Aw, shiat, we've got someone in here who actually read the linked article.

/Everyone hide!


That's because it's such a well-known fact that GM sucks, nobody really had to read the article.  It seems the headline may have been just a tiny bit astray of the bullseye.
 
2014-05-12 02:54:08 PM

LazyMedia: One bit of good news for GM. When the list of car makers was expanded to include the three German auto companies, which have a far less significant market share in the U.S., suppliers said Daimler AG's Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen AG were even harder to deal with.

See, the krauts are bigger jerks to their suppliers than Government Motors even. Germans!

/BMW did well on the survey, because they are jolly Bavarians.


On the other hand, Daimler divesting itself of Chrysler might have been the best thing to happen to Chrysler in the past decade. (That and making Ram its own make separate from Dodge...)
 
2014-05-12 02:54:18 PM

bungle_jr: vudukungfu: bungle_jr: fyi, they paid it back

FYI they should NEVER HAVE GOTTEN IT IN THE FIRST PLACE!

They failed. They failed be cause they SUCKASS and they deserved to die DIE DIE

They should have been buried under the more successful, less sucky competition.

Fark them in the ass.

i do agree with you
but i still have to give the kudos for getting it paid back...whether they deserved it in the first place or not

at least they didn't get bought out by scania or peugot, or some other shiatty euro brand like chrysler did with fiat


You're both incorrect.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/12/16/general-motors-g m- bailout-repayment/4043607/
http://business.time.com/2013/12/17/gm-ceo-were-not-paying-any-more- ba ck-to-government/
 
2014-05-12 02:54:23 PM

Cyclometh: I love my Volt.

Driven about 8 thousand miles, put gas in it three times. Drives great, handles well, gotten good support from my dealer for the few minor issues it's had like the outlet cover sticking, and is super comfortable.


I want one, but I worry that It'll fit me like a clowncar
 
2014-05-12 02:54:42 PM
Since technically GM and Ford are the only American car companies left, isn't one of them going to be the best and the other the worst
 
2014-05-12 02:54:45 PM

loonatic112358: Flargan: LazyMedia: All of the competition is subsidized by their home countries. When a car company dies, you don't get more and better competition, you just get one fewer car company.

^This

I don't think people know how awful Toyota was in its early days. (They narrowly avoided bankruptcy and needed government support to put them back on track.)

At one time Japan made the cheap crap, now they make they make good stuff, then korea and taiwan made cheap crap now they don't now china does, except they're getting better


Eventually we'll run out of other countries and it'll be our turn again


China and India are making absolute garbage cars right now, but all the dang prosperity is hurting their sales. Chinese people would rather own a clapped out used Buick than a new Chinese-made car.
 
2014-05-12 02:55:43 PM

vudukungfu: Slaves2Darkness: All those libby libs wanted socialism well guess what? You got it, bastard American style.

I'm not a Farking LIBBY LIB. I only LIVE IN VERMONT!.
I'm FOR THE DEATH PENALTY, for shiat's sakes.
Jesus jumping christ on a pogo stick.
Fark this whole farking country.
It's entirely populated with too many ignorant yayhoos.
Left, right, middle of the road, it doesn't matter what side they are on.
Jesus farking christ, if the farmer down the road fark up and farks his chickens to death, we don't give him a replacement farking farked to death chicken subsidy, now, do we?
DO WE?!!


Sorry to tell you this but thanks to insurance and other government programs we do actually do exactly that.
 
2014-05-12 02:55:47 PM
As someone who's spouse works at TMMI, I'm getting a kick out of this thread.

My parents and his parents were long-time GM families. Then in the late 1990's GM's quality started to really decline around the time that their 1987 Silverado and 1987 Blazer were starting to get serious costly issues.. My parents switched to Chrysler, his switched to Toyota. My family has had a lemon Dodge Ram every year since 2000, every truck has some sort of electrical/ignition issue. His family still have their 2003 Tundra and Sequoia, with nearly 200k on the Tundra.

When I graduated high school I received a 1998 Chevy Monte Carlo. Gutless, worthless, rust bucket with bad electrical systems come to mind. I traded that off as soon as I could for a 2001 Toyota Camry...absolutely amazing car. Like a previous reviewer said, it felt like it was made for me. It was economical to drive, powerful engine, great handling, looked nice inside and out, and comfortable for our trans-continental trips every summer. We even managed to put a 1979 Chevy 305 engine in the trunk and haul it back home for my husband's project car restoration.

When we bought a new house out in the country with livestock, the necessity of 4WD and usefulness of a truck were needed. I traded my Camry in for a 2006 Tacoma. Good gas mileage for a truck, powerful enough to pull trailers, and it's not had a major issue in the 8 years I've owned it, and I'm nearing 100k miles. Hubby's truck is a 1993 T100 that's over 125k miles. The only issue it's had was that we had to replace the fuel tank that leaked, found one at a junkyard for $20 and spent an afternoon to fix it.

My parents are now on their 6th Dodge Ram, a 2012. The paint has had to be replaced in spots due to bubbling. It's had the ignition system replaced already. The stereo doesn't work if the truck isn't running, accessory on the ignition powers nothing. The sunroof doesn't work, and they've had the passenger side power windows and locks replaced.

They did try a 2006 Sequoia for a year, but dad declared it used too much fuel, that was his only critique. I fail to see how it could use more fuel than his current vehicle, but whatever. Their loss.
 
2014-05-12 02:56:34 PM

loonatic112358: Cyclometh: I love my Volt.

Driven about 8 thousand miles, put gas in it three times. Drives great, handles well, gotten good support from my dealer for the few minor issues it's had like the outlet cover sticking, and is super comfortable.

I want one, but I worry that It'll fit me like a clowncar


I'm 6'4" and 225 pounds. The back seat is not exactly roomy (you won't get an adult behind you unless you want to squinch up a bit), but for the front seats it's fine.
 
2014-05-12 02:57:02 PM

LazyMedia: Voiceofreason01: bdub77: Every time I step into a Toyota I feel like they built the car just for me

I've never driven a Toyota that I like. They're practical, economical, well designed and incredibly boring.

The Corolla SR-5 from the mid-'70s had a biatchin' cabin design; it was like a fighter cockpit with all the dials and stuff angled toward you. Other than that, though, yeah, they're pretty dull. For some reason, I prefer Hondas; they're pretty boring, too, but there's a slight Apple kind of a vibe to them.


Honda seems to style itself as the "sporty Toyota alternative".  I've still got my 2004 Mazda6 (192000 miles). Other than the fact the car itself is heavy, it's a fun ride. And I picked up a 2014 Mustang as well.
 
2014-05-12 02:57:10 PM

cgraves67: The_EliteOne: No issues with my 2012 convertible camaro. Bought it with 12.5k miles on it. Just passed 25k.

All these poo-poo GM threads though, man they make me worry that issues are going to hit me like a truck very, very soon.

It's always right after the factory warranty expires.


New transmission and new rear differential 20k miles after warranty expiration fark GM
 
2014-05-12 02:57:45 PM
After this recall BS, I will never buy GM again. They haven't even done anything to rectify the fact I could've died driving that car many times, other than make me wait 10 weeks to get it fixed and pay for the fixing only. Fark GM. I hope they go bankrupt
 
2014-05-12 02:58:41 PM
GM's biggest mistake was getting rid of the Pontiac and Saturn lines. Pontiac gave you a high-performance engine at an afordable price. Saturn gave you a simple, affordable car with a simple, friendly buying experience. Those were about the only good things GM had going for it.

/My Saturn lasted 13 years before it started having major mechanical problems. It was smooth sailing before then and I was a very happy GM customer. I'd happily replace my Saturn with another Saturn if I could.
 
2014-05-12 02:59:16 PM

mama2tnt: debug: You all realize this article is about how difficult it is for GM's suppliers to deal with them, right?  It's got nothing to do with consumers.

Not disputing that their end product is crap, just sayin'

Aw, shiat, we've got someone in here who actually read the linked article.

/Everyone hide!



Came here for this. Not surprising, farkers. Most of you voted for Odummer too, didn't you?
 
2014-05-12 03:00:29 PM
well...i heard wrong...sorry...i had heard that gm did pay back the bailout money

perhaps i misheard? don't know...don't really care...not going to buy a gm, nor another ford, anyway
 
2014-05-12 03:00:30 PM

Needlessly Complicated: GM's biggest mistake was getting rid of the Pontiac and Saturn lines. Pontiac gave you a high-performance engine at an afordable price. Saturn gave you a simple, affordable car with a simple, friendly buying experience. Those were about the only good things GM had going for it.

/My Saturn lasted 13 years before it started having major mechanical problems. It was smooth sailing before then and I was a very happy GM customer. I'd happily replace my Saturn with another Saturn if I could.


I'd love to see Pontiac reborn


Bring back the thunder chicken, use the phoenix rises or some other BS in advertisements
 
2014-05-12 03:01:38 PM

Needlessly Complicated: Saturn gave you a simple, affordable car with a simple, friendly buying experience


My first new car purchase was a Saturn SL. Basic, simple car- 4 doors, no power anything and the basic cloth seats.

Lasted until last year when its transmission started leaking. Loved that car. I was pissed when GM flushed the Saturn brand down the toilet. I'd have bought another one, happily.
 
2014-05-12 03:02:00 PM
I love Buicks. Donated my 1990 LeSabre at 223,000 miles, coming up on 100,000 miles in my 2005 LaCrosse.
 
2014-05-12 03:03:01 PM
Is this the thread where everyone openly admits they suck at choosing cars?
 
2014-05-12 03:03:24 PM

realmolo: I won't even get into the economics of buying a new car. Suffice it to say, a new car is pretty much the worst way to spend your money.


Lose 10 grand of their value the minute you drive them off the lot.
 
Really good investment.
 
2014-05-12 03:03:46 PM

LazyMedia: Chinese people would rather own a clapped out used Buick than a new Chinese-made car.


I think it is closer to "Many Chinese people are accustomed to Bikes, Scooters, and Public transit".

It can take a few generations to create a car-culture.
 
2014-05-12 03:04:22 PM
I've worked with many auto companies and Toyota was the best. They would send in Engineers and work with you until the parts were made perfect.
 
2014-05-12 03:05:05 PM
The only "GM" I've ever owned was technically a Toyota.  It was a 1994 or 1996 (I can't remember) Geo Prizm, with the 1.6 liter engine and a 3 speed automatic (with overdrive!).  I thought of it as the king of shiatboxes.  What always blew me away about that car is that despite only weighing something like 2200 lbs, it was still slow as hell.

It was an ok car when we bought it in 2002, but by the time I got rid of it in 2007 it had a list of mechanical issues a mile long.  I decided to not dump any more money in it after the power steering pump burned up, so technically I sold it because it needed new tires.

I got 500 bucks for it, which is about 400 more than I expected to get, especially with over 160,000 miles on it.
 
2014-05-12 03:05:53 PM
That GM bailout really paid off! I guess when GM fails again in a couple of years we'll just bail them out again!
 
2014-05-12 03:09:14 PM
My wife and I bought a 2007 Pontiac Wave 3 years ago. It's the same thing as an Aveo, of course. We paid about $5K Canadian for the car, which was about as cheap as one could get for a 3 - 4 year old car with less than 100,000Km. It was all that we could afford, but it has been a decent little car for us.

My son, when he started driving, commented that our cute little Wave sounded like a Daiwoo. "This Pontiac sounds like a Daiwoo." Well, good ears m'boy, it IS a Daiwoo with a Pontiac badge on it. That made me laugh. He bought a 2007 low mileage Aveo recently, once again because it was something he could afford to buy and afford to fuel and reasonably reliable for a long commute. So, yes, we are Daiwoo owners.
 
2014-05-12 03:09:56 PM
www.frugal-cafe.com
 
2014-05-12 03:12:21 PM

realmolo: bdub77: Tr0mBoNe: I can see it... most of their cars have the aesthetic styling of a pancreas.

It's so frustrating that for a while the only semi-affordable EVs that didn't look like death traps were the Volt and the Leaf because I've never driven a Chevy I didn't hate within the first minute of stepping into the vehicle, the cabin is always poorly designed. Every time I step into a Toyota I feel like they built the car just for me. And with the Leaf it was merely an issue with distance - definitely a good commuting car but only 70 miles under less than ideal conditions is not good.

Fords are kind of in between, and Nissans always feel great except for the fact I always feel they have high center of gravity and I could flip them in an instant.

I won't have money to buy a new car for 3 years but then I'm definitely going with an EV or hybrid EV if it's within affordability - the Teslas are looking amazing.

Or, if you really care about the environment, and our dwindling oil supplies, and all that stuff, you could buy a used car.

I won't even get into the economics of buying a new car. Suffice it to say, a new car is pretty much the worst way to spend your money.


Sadly, Obama destroyed tens of thousands of fully functional used cars in an effort to force us to buy new cars.
 
2014-05-12 03:14:48 PM

Poowaddins: As someone who's spouse works at TMMI, I'm getting a kick out of this thread.

My parents and his parents were long-time GM families. Then in the late 1990's GM's quality started to really decline around the time that their 1987 Silverado and 1987 Blazer were starting to get serious costly issues.. My parents switched to Chrysler, his switched to Toyota. My family has had a lemon Dodge Ram every year since 2000, every truck has some sort of electrical/ignition issue. His family still have their 2003 Tundra and Sequoia, with nearly 200k on the Tundra.

When I graduated high school I received a 1998 Chevy Monte Carlo. Gutless, worthless, rust bucket with bad electrical systems come to mind. I traded that off as soon as I could for a 2001 Toyota Camry...absolutely amazing car. Like a previous reviewer said, it felt like it was made for me. It was economical to drive, powerful engine, great handling, looked nice inside and out, and comfortable for our trans-continental trips every summer. We even managed to put a 1979 Chevy 305 engine in the trunk and haul it back home for my husband's project car restoration.

When we bought a new house out in the country with livestock, the necessity of 4WD and usefulness of a truck were needed. I traded my Camry in for a 2006 Tacoma. Good gas mileage for a truck, powerful enough to pull trailers, and it's not had a major issue in the 8 years I've owned it, and I'm nearing 100k miles. Hubby's truck is a 1993 T100 that's over 125k miles. The only issue it's had was that we had to replace the fuel tank that leaked, found one at a junkyard for $20 and spent an afternoon to fix it.

My parents are now on their 6th Dodge Ram, a 2012. The paint has had to be replaced in spots due to bubbling. It's had the ignition system replaced already. The stereo doesn't work if the truck isn't running, accessory on the ignition powers nothing. The sunroof doesn't work, and they've had the passenger side power windows and locks replaced.

They did try a ...


This seems to be in line with my own and others experiences. The Japanese design and build superior automobiles and have for at least 25 years. I had a 1985 Honda Civic that I had bought new. At 135K miles it just stopped at a red light and could not be started. I had it towed to the Honda dealership, who gave me the bad news: the camshaft drive pin had broken. The engine would need to be rebuilt. I told them to let me consider if a 8 year old car with this many miles warranted such a repair. As I was pondering this, I got a call from Americana Honda's customer representative. He told me that regardless of the age of the car or the number of miles, that camshaft pin should not have broken. Because of this, Honda would repair the engine at no cost to me and give me a loaner car. I drove that car for another four years and 50K miles. I bought a 1998 Accord, which my wife still drives and it is in good working condition. I drive a 2007 Accord, which still handles like it is brand new. Neither car has ever had anything by routine maintenance or minor repairs.
 
2014-05-12 03:15:10 PM

hiker9999: LazyMedia: Voiceofreason01: bdub77: Every time I step into a Toyota I feel like they built the car just for me

I've never driven a Toyota that I like. They're practical, economical, well designed and incredibly boring.

The Corolla SR-5 from the mid-'70s had a biatchin' cabin design; it was like a fighter cockpit with all the dials and stuff angled toward you. Other than that, though, yeah, they're pretty dull. For some reason, I prefer Hondas; they're pretty boring, too, but there's a slight Apple kind of a vibe to them.

Honda seems to style itself as the "sporty Toyota alternative".  I've still got my 2004 Mazda6 (192000 miles). Other than the fact the car itself is heavy, it's a fun ride. And I picked up a 2014 Mustang as well.


I loved my 2004 mazda6, lot of fun with the v6. I agree that it is a wee heavy. Tooling around in a BMW 135i now, what a brilliant little car.

GM was too big, which is why Pontiac (rip) Olds, and Saturn no longer exist. Chevy could trim their line down by almost half and no one would notice. Caddy has gotten a LOT better. Too many trucks though.
 
2014-05-12 03:16:03 PM
I can vouch for this.  They're dicks.  They won't sign contracts, they just send a letter saying they agree to your terms and will email/fax/write back and forth over and over rather than sign a document they SAY they agree to, but won't actually agree to.  Never happened to us, but I'm sure they up and decide to change their pricing and just say "we never agreed to THAT draft".

/That looks paranoid written out.
//Whatever, you shouldn't make suppliers paranoid.
 
2014-05-12 03:17:00 PM

brandent: The more you eat the more you fart: hitmanric: ObscureNameHere: Not Chrysler!?!?!!?

Or, are they not considered 'US Manufacturer' anymore?

Are there really any US manufacturers anymore? Chrysler is now owned by Fiat. GMs are branded as Holdens in Aussieland and Vauxhalls in Europe. Fords have had a strong market share in Europe and Latin America for decades now. And all 3 have plants outside of the US.

Nissan trucks = made in USA.

85% of Hyundais that are sold in the USA are also built in the USA.  They are the 'most American' car company.


Most of the parts in those 85% come from Korea. It's printed right on the window sticker what the US and Korean parts content is. It's been a while since I looked, but I believe the Korean parts content is something like 95%. So the cars are assembled here, but the parts to do so are shipped here.


/former Hyundai technician
//work for Toyota now...
 
2014-05-12 03:17:49 PM

TV's Vinnie: To be honest, GM can go f*ck themselves. They are the reason why we no longer have trolley cars as mass transit and why we don't have much in the way of high speed or light rail (they bought up all the trolley companies in the 40's & 50's and then converted over to buses. All made by GM of course).

[www.autogallery.org.ru image 519x274]

And then they have the unmitigated gall to run asshole ads like this to discourage people into riding buses and buy huge gas-guzzlers instead to prove how awesome they are to everyone.

[rebuildingfoundationsblog.files.wordpress.com image 313x400]

And riding a bicycle? I bet you're a commie AND  pedophile. Either way, you're a loser. Loser commie pedo!
[images.thetruthaboutcars.com image 571x353]


And let's not forget how they pulled up stakes and left Detroit to fend for itself.
[www.islandbreath.org image 520x393]

So f*ck GM hard! They are like a million Comcasts with a Koch Brothers center.


And then Obama gave them all billions. to keep on doing this over and over.
 
2014-05-12 03:20:15 PM

wildcardjack: Well... Never buy the first model year of a GM product.


/FTFY while also shortening it by five words
 
2014-05-12 03:22:15 PM

hiker9999: LazyMedia: Voiceofreason01: bdub77: Every time I step into a Toyota I feel like they built the car just for me

I've never driven a Toyota that I like. They're practical, economical, well designed and incredibly boring.

The Corolla SR-5 from the mid-'70s had a biatchin' cabin design; it was like a fighter cockpit with all the dials and stuff angled toward you. Other than that, though, yeah, they're pretty dull. For some reason, I prefer Hondas; they're pretty boring, too, but there's a slight Apple kind of a vibe to them.

Honda seems to style itself as the "sporty Toyota alternative".  I've still got my 2004 Mazda6 (192000 miles). Other than the fact the car itself is heavy, it's a fun ride. And I picked up a 2014 Mustang as well.


Yeah, I'm driving a Mazda 6 right now, for the price it's hard to do better for a drivers car if you want 4 seats.
 
2014-05-12 03:22:21 PM

Flargan: LazyMedia: Chinese people would rather own a clapped out used Buick than a new Chinese-made car.

I think it is closer to "Many Chinese people are accustomed to Bikes, Scooters, and Public transit".

It can take a few generations to create a car-culture.


No, I've read that the cars they're currently making in China just suck. Really unreliable, to the point of making Buick seem like Toyota in comparison. There are already more than 130 million cars in China.
 
2014-05-12 03:22:54 PM

bleeblahbloo: i meant your story about buying the shiatty car


I still have a folder that covers ten years of shiatty service from buying it brand new off the lot with a faulty gas tank reader on up to the transmission immediately needing to be rebuilt four times.

I talked over 100 people personally over ten years out of buying a brand new GM, too.
At a profit of @ $10K per vehicle on the company, that is a one million dollar loss.
I pulled out the scrap book of every farking thing they did to fark me over and I still have it.

All it took was looking at my notes and seeing what they did to convince anyone to buy anything but a GM POS.
 
2014-05-12 03:23:28 PM
Owned too many GM cars. GM makes junk. Chrysler makes junk. Ford is decent, but also makes junk. Go 'Murica!
 
2014-05-12 03:25:30 PM

LazyMedia: One bit of good news for GM. When the list of car makers was expanded to include the three German auto companies, which have a far less significant market share in the U.S., suppliers said Daimler AG's Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen AG were even harder to deal with.

See, the krauts are bigger jerks to their suppliers than Government Motors even. Germans!

/BMW did well on the survey, because they are jolly Bavarians.


BMW did well because (for the most part) they make really nice cars, out of really nice bits.  Then they service it properly and correctly.

Over 1million miles on BMW cars (3 of them).  I <3 me a BMW.  Comfortable, fast and tough.  What else do you need in a car?
 
2014-05-12 03:25:44 PM

DrSansabeltNoShiatSlacks: Owned too many GM cars. GM makes junk. Chrysler makes junk. Ford is decent, but also makes junk. Go 'Murica!


this
 
2014-05-12 03:25:54 PM

firegoat: brandent: The more you eat the more you fart: hitmanric: ObscureNameHere: Not Chrysler!?!?!!?

Or, are they not considered 'US Manufacturer' anymore?

Are there really any US manufacturers anymore? Chrysler is now owned by Fiat. GMs are branded as Holdens in Aussieland and Vauxhalls in Europe. Fords have had a strong market share in Europe and Latin America for decades now. And all 3 have plants outside of the US.

Nissan trucks = made in USA.

85% of Hyundais that are sold in the USA are also built in the USA.  They are the 'most American' car company.

Most of the parts in those 85% come from Korea. It's printed right on the window sticker what the US and Korean parts content is. It's been a while since I looked, but I believe the Korean parts content is something like 95%. So the cars are assembled here, but the parts to do so are shipped here.


/former Hyundai technician
//work for Toyota now...


The Toyota Camry sold in the U.S. is the second most American-made car (based on where the parts come from and where it's assembled). The only car sold in America that is more "American" is the Ford F-150, and the Camry was No. 1 in 2012. Three other Toyotas made the Top 10; no Hyundai made the list.
 
2014-05-12 03:26:32 PM

firegoat: brandent: The more you eat the more you fart: hitmanric: ObscureNameHere: Not Chrysler!?!?!!?

Or, are they not considered 'US Manufacturer' anymore?

Are there really any US manufacturers anymore? Chrysler is now owned by Fiat. GMs are branded as Holdens in Aussieland and Vauxhalls in Europe. Fords have had a strong market share in Europe and Latin America for decades now. And all 3 have plants outside of the US.

Nissan trucks = made in USA.

85% of Hyundais that are sold in the USA are also built in the USA.  They are the 'most American' car company.

Most of the parts in those 85% come from Korea. It's printed right on the window sticker what the US and Korean parts content is. It's been a while since I looked, but I believe the Korean parts content is something like 95%. So the cars are assembled here, but the parts to do so are shipped here.


/former Hyundai technician
//work for Toyota now...


It's not anymore.  Much of the content is US made.  They have greatly increased their US presence.  For instance this plant started making engines in 2012.
http://www.hmmausa.com/hyundai-motor-manufacturing-alabama-expands-e ng ine-plant/
 
2014-05-12 03:30:38 PM

Kahabut: LazyMedia: One bit of good news for GM. When the list of car makers was expanded to include the three German auto companies, which have a far less significant market share in the U.S., suppliers said Daimler AG's Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen AG were even harder to deal with.

See, the krauts are bigger jerks to their suppliers than Government Motors even. Germans!

/BMW did well on the survey, because they are jolly Bavarians.

BMW did well because (for the most part) they make really nice cars, out of really nice bits.  Then they service it properly and correctly.

Over 1million miles on BMW cars (3 of them).  I <3 me a BMW.  Comfortable, fast and tough.  What else do you need in a car?


The story isn't about customer service; it's about how they relate to their suppliers.

BMWs are fun cars, but not particularly good value for money. They're not super reliable and they are VERY expensive to buy and maintain. If you want to spend the money for that kind of car, they're probably as good as a Lexus or Audi in terms of value for money, but they're no Toyota or Honda.
 
2014-05-12 03:33:24 PM

The_EliteOne: No issues with my 2012 convertible camaro. Bought it with 12.5k miles on it. Just passed 25k.

All these poo-poo GM threads though, man they make me worry that issues are going to hit me like a truck very, very soon.


part of the "old GM/ New GM" mentality was shown that the small cars that they pumped out to fill their profit margins were done so for fleet sales, so quality wasn't going to be high on their list of features. Now, if you bought one of their bread and butter items like their SUV's, sports/sporty cars then most recalls don't affect you as much. If your car part shares commonalities with other vehicles, be worried. If the parts were for a small sect of model you're in the clear.

I own a Mustang and now that the warranty is long gone I realize how much of the quality in parts given to the "bread and butter" cars of any manufacturer plays in vehicle longevity.

/also talking mom into getting rid of her underpowered Silverado 1200 V6 for something different...
 
2014-05-12 03:33:51 PM
Fark overpriced, featureless piece of shiat American cars.
 
2014-05-12 03:34:50 PM
So far so good with our Buick Encore. I also like my Dodge Charger and Chrysler T&C, no major issues.
 
2014-05-12 03:35:31 PM

Nemo's Brother: And then Obama gave them all billions. to keep on doing this over and over.


I'm pregnant

It was Dubya that did that, as a final "F*CK YOU! RICH PEOPLE ARE MORE IMPORTANT!" to every regular American who lost their job and home after the crash.
 
2014-05-12 03:36:16 PM

ringersol: 1. Who gives a fark what *suppliers* like? They either bid for the business or they don't. And the degree to which GM is a clusterfark should just be priced-in to their bids.

2. Call me crazy, but if you're doing the whole "free market" thing properly, your suppliers are *going* to dislike dealing with you. You'll be pressing them hard to trim their own margins, you'll be holding their feet to the fire on contract terms and performance, you'll be putting them back into merits-based competition for each new piece of work. These are all perfectly straightforward and reasonable things you would assume everyone would do -- but suppliers *hate* it. They like to win business on soft-money and sleazy junkets. They like to get the next job on the basis of a "relationship" that isn't at all related to their actual prior performance.

So I'm not particularly convinced that GM should give a flying fark about this 'image problem'.


You aren't taking into account the human aspect of the supplier.  If you're a jerk and I have another contract from your competitor I'll take the competitor just to not deal with you.  If I am a successful ignition manufacturer and the other players in the market are buying my ignition, I don't need your headache.  I don't supply you.  Then you have to buy from some company that has quality control issues and end up making a recall.
 
2014-05-12 03:39:17 PM

vudukungfu: bleeblahbloo: i meant your story about buying the shiatty car

I still have a folder that covers ten years of shiatty service from buying it brand new off the lot with a faulty gas tank reader on up to the transmission immediately needing to be rebuilt four times.

I talked over 100 people personally over ten years out of buying a brand new GM, too.
At a profit of @ $10K per vehicle on the company, that is a one million dollar loss.
I pulled out the scrap book of every farking thing they did to fark me over and I still have it.

All it took was looking at my notes and seeing what they did to convince anyone to buy anything but a GM POS.


Mine had to have the clutch bearing replaced 4 times and the cylinder head 3 times. This is on top of all the other random electronic and mechanical failures. Fortunately I was able to negotiate a decent trade-in toward my current vehicle, otherwise I'd be (more) bitter
 
2014-05-12 03:40:24 PM

LazyMedia: Flargan: LazyMedia: Chinese people would rather own a clapped out used Buick than a new Chinese-made car.

I think it is closer to "Many Chinese people are accustomed to Bikes, Scooters, and Public transit".

It can take a few generations to create a car-culture.

No, I've read that the cars they're currently making in China just suck. Really unreliable, to the point of making Buick seem like Toyota in comparison. There are already more than 130 million cars in China.


So, slightly below average cars seem like slightly above average?
http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&story=iqsBrand&su b ject=iqs">http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&story=i qsBrand&sub ject=iqs
 
2014-05-12 03:41:44 PM

Tr0mBoNe: I can see it... most of their cars have the aesthetic styling of a pancreas.


At least the pancreas supplies the human body with an essential substance - insulin.
A GM car supplies the body with a non-essential substance - hydrochloric acid that
causes ulcers.
 
2014-05-12 03:42:42 PM

brandent: It's not anymore.  Much of the content is US made.  They have greatly increased their US presence.  For instance this plant started making engines in 2012.
http://www.hmmausa.com/hyundai-motor-manufacturing-alabama-expands-e ng ine-plant/


But America still doesn't have the first clue how to pronounce it. (And nor does Britain, for that matter.)

Hint: It's not "Hunn-day", and nor is it "High-Oon-Die"
 
2014-05-12 03:43:49 PM
I drive an 82 Silverado
343k miles on the odometer. I can fix it with a hammer,screwdrivers,and a crescent wrench.
 
2014-05-12 03:44:02 PM

LazyMedia: No, I've read that the cars they're currently making in China just suck. Really unreliable, to the point of making Buick seem like Toyota in comparison. There are already more than 130 million cars in China.


I will just take your word for it.

My friends that travel back and forth to China (charity work mostly) tell me that cars (not just those made domestically) are not considered a primary means of transportation and are viewed as a luxury item.

//In fact the stories I have been told about traffic in Chinese cities would make you believe that cars are useless as a means of transportation.
 
2014-05-12 03:47:29 PM

loonatic112358: Cyclometh: I love my Volt.

Driven about 8 thousand miles, put gas in it three times. Drives great, handles well, gotten good support from my dealer for the few minor issues it's had like the outlet cover sticking, and is super comfortable.

I want one, but I worry that It'll fit me like a clowncar


I'm 6' 1" and 190.  I fit just find in my Volt.  It is really an amazing piece of technology.  I love it and won't hesitate to buy another one.

Their ICE cars, not so much.
 
2014-05-12 03:51:15 PM
1K miles out of warranty the turbo and fuel pump (second one) on my Chevy diesel truck died.  GM told me to pound salt, so I fixed it and traded it the same day for a new Ford.  The Ford ran 160K miles without so much as a spark plug change, and I sold it still running like a champ.  Fark GM, they should have died without any more of my money.
 
2014-05-12 03:51:32 PM
Currently own a 2004 Honda Accord V6.....bought it fully loaded with 1,000 miles on it. Just recently broke the 200K mile marker! The only major issues I had were a defective hydraulic bearing and a transmission that failed. These both happened before hitting 100K miles and were covered under the extended warranty I had purchased with the car. It only cost me $57.00 to change my timing belt as the engine had to be taken part for the hydraulic bearing and all labor was paid for by Honda!

Looking at getting a 2014 Honda Odyssey in the next few weeks......
 
2014-05-12 03:52:59 PM

gweilo8888: brandent: It's not anymore.  Much of the content is US made.  They have greatly increased their US presence.  For instance this plant started making engines in 2012.
http://www.hmmausa.com/hyundai-motor-manufacturing-alabama-expands-e ng ine-plant/

But America still doesn't have the first clue how to pronounce it. (And nor does Britain, for that matter.)

Hint: It's not "Hunn-day", and nor is it "High-Oon-Die"


Which is why most Korean immigrants change their names to Steve, Brian, Cathy, etc. My Korean college (Steve) told me it is pronounced just as its anglicized spelling suggests: hyun-dye with a slightly long stress on the terminal I sound.
 
2014-05-12 03:53:28 PM

TV's Vinnie: To be honest, GM can go f*ck themselves. They are the reason why we no longer have trolley cars as mass transit and why we don't have much in the way of high speed or light rail (they bought up all the trolley companies in the 40's & 50's and then converted over to buses. All made by GM of course).
[www.autogallery.org.ru image 519×274]

And then they have the unmitigated gall to run asshole ads like this to discourage people into riding buses and buy huge gas-guzzlers instead to prove how awesome they are to everyone.
[rebuildingfoundationsblog.files.wordpress.com image 313×400]

And riding a bicycle? I bet you're a commie AND pedophile. Either way, you're a loser. Loser commie pedo!
[images.thetruthaboutcars.com image 571×353]

And let's not forget how they pulled up stakes and left Detroit to fend for itself.
[www.islandbreath.org image 520×393]

So f*ck GM hard! They are like a million Comcasts with a Koch Brothers center.

Don't forget GM's partners in crime in that trolley fiasco: Standard Oil, Philips Petroleum, and Firestone. Of course the GM buses burned Standard's and Philips's diesel and ran on Goodwill tires.

They were convicted of fraud and conspiracy in this. It wasn't just that they bought up the trolley companies. It was that they sent salesmen disguised as agents of a non-existent federal mass transportation agency to cities that had trolleys, showing fake studies to convince them to switch to GM buses. The judge who was apparently in their pocket fined GM $5k and their treasurer H. C. Grossman a whopping $1.

It almost sounds like a plot a cartoon villain would come up with in a movie ― like, oh, say, Judge Doom in Who Framed Roger Rabbit? Gues what? That movie scheme was actually based on this real-life criminal conspiracy. There really was a Red Car in Los Angeles, it really was bought out and dismantled, though not by the Cloverleaf Corporation, but rather by a shell organization for GM et al.
 
2014-05-12 03:53:52 PM

error 303: My wife's GM car was recalled. She was actually in an accident in 2005 in it which is more or less identical to what the described problems were (tried to break brake quickly after a car merged in front of her and slammed on their breaks brakes and her power steering/power breakings braking locked up).


No wonder the damn thing's in the shop, what with all of the breaking she does! ;)
 
2014-05-12 03:55:27 PM

LazyMedia: Kahabut: LazyMedia: One bit of good news for GM. When the list of car makers was expanded to include the three German auto companies, which have a far less significant market share in the U.S., suppliers said Daimler AG's Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen AG were even harder to deal with.

See, the krauts are bigger jerks to their suppliers than Government Motors even. Germans!

/BMW did well on the survey, because they are jolly Bavarians.

BMW did well because (for the most part) they make really nice cars, out of really nice bits.  Then they service it properly and correctly.

Over 1million miles on BMW cars (3 of them).  I <3 me a BMW.  Comfortable, fast and tough.  What else do you need in a car?

The story isn't about customer service; it's about how they relate to their suppliers.

BMWs are fun cars, but not particularly good value for money. They're not super reliable and they are VERY expensive to buy and maintain. If you want to spend the money for that kind of car, they're probably as good as a Lexus or Audi in terms of value for money, but they're no Toyota or Honda.


I hear this a lot from people that don't own BMWs.

On a dollar for dollar basis, I have no doubt other cars come out ahead.  But let me just cover this little bit of bullshiat.  "bmws cost more to maintain".  More than what?  I have a MILLION miles, spread across 3 BMWs.  I paid less than $10,000 for each car when I bought it.  I pay roughly $1000/year for service, which includes tires/brakes.  I think you'd be hard pressed to find similar outcomes with anything other than a Toyota.  And while you're at it, find me a 400hp Toyota, or honda, with 4 doors and room for adults in the back seat.  Good luck.

Now, I have also owned several other cars, ford, mazda, nissan, toyota.  Most of these were cheaper to buy, and more expensive to keep running than the BMWs I prefer.  It could be I just have bad taste/luck in cars, but in my experience (which is obviously not diverse enough to be considered evidence) BMW makes reliable cars, that are easy to work on, and while not "cheap" to maintain, certainly not more expensive than average.

Look, I'm not going to sit here and pretend that my favorite car make is better than everything else.  That would be folly.  I am going to say this though.
If you've never owned one, you really don't have any idea what you are talking about.  Some of the luxury brands are so far ahead of the standard cars that it's really hard to believe.  BMW isn't the only one, they just happen to be my favorite.
 
2014-05-12 03:55:54 PM
Anyone RTFA?


Suppliers gave GM low marks on all kinds of key measures, including its overall trustworthiness, its communication skills, and its protection of intellectual property.

So basically, their Tier 1 suppliers (the firms that sell parts directly to GM) hate them.
 
2014-05-12 03:59:31 PM

LazyMedia: The story isn't about customer service; it's about how they relate to their suppliers.


At the end of the day, if you treat suppliers like crap, you'll treat customers like crap. If you can find a way to treat one person like crap, you'll find a reason to treat everyone that way.
 
2014-05-12 04:00:12 PM

mike_d85: LazyMedia: Flargan: LazyMedia: Chinese people would rather own a clapped out used Buick than a new Chinese-made car.

I think it is closer to "Many Chinese people are accustomed to Bikes, Scooters, and Public transit".

It can take a few generations to create a car-culture.

No, I've read that the cars they're currently making in China just suck. Really unreliable, to the point of making Buick seem like Toyota in comparison. There are already more than 130 million cars in China.

So, slightly below average cars seem like slightly above average?
http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&story=iqsBrand&su b ject=iqs">http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&story=i qsBrand&sub ject=iqs


I'm always reading articles about the supposed reliability of American cars these days, but I never hear any anecdotal evidence of it. Could be confirmation bias, but on these car threads, you'll get dozens of people biatching about their POS unreliable American cars and singing the praises of Toyota and Honda, and very few saying anything different.

My experience was with a PT Cruiser. Bought new in 2003, had it for 10 years, had a few problems that needed repair like an engine control chip. Nothing really good about it other than the looks and ability to haul stuff; it drove like crap out of the box and tended to eat brake pads, tires and gasoline (25 mpg). Last year it started using a lot of oil, and leaking radiator fluid. Turned out the engine block had cracked at 90,000 miles. On the other hand, we bought a Honda Civic new in 1995. Fun to drive, insanely good mileage. Never had anything wrong with it other than scheduled maintenance for 15 years; eventually had to replace the air conditioning condenser. Drove it for 140,000 miles and sold it earlier this year as a reliable runner.

I dunno who fills out those J.D. Power questionnaires, but their experience doesn't track anything that actual people tell me.
 
2014-05-12 04:00:32 PM

packman_jon: Anyone RTFA?


Suppliers gave GM low marks on all kinds of key measures, including its overall trustworthiness, its communication skills, and its protection of intellectual property.

So basically, their Tier 1 suppliers (the firms that sell parts directly to GM) hate them.


Oh, it`s not just the suppliers, believe me.
 
2014-05-12 04:02:15 PM

J. Frank Parnell: realmolo: I won't even get into the economics of buying a new car. Suffice it to say, a new car is pretty much the worst way to spend your money.

Lose 10 grand of their value the minute you drive them off the lot.
 
Really good investment.


To be fair, no car is an investment. If you enjoy buying new and can afford it, knock yourself out. Just about every purchase we make is a waste of money, so meh.

My wife and I buy new. We're each on our second new car in our adult lives (I owned a couple of beaters as a young'un). We're in our 40s - our first new cars lasted 8 and 10 years and got traded in. We would spend less buying used initially but it's kind of nice driving a car nobody but you has ever driven.

If my wife wanted to a new car every 3 years, I would push back hard on buying new, obviously.
 
2014-05-12 04:02:19 PM
The_EliteOne
No issues with my 2012 convertible camaro. Bought it with 12.5k miles on it. Just passed 25k.
All these poo-poo GM threads though, man they make me worry that issues are going to hit me like a truck very, very soon.


Expect the electronics to start to go at about 120k.

I might be wrong by a few K here or there, but my best guess is start to consider letting it go at 75 K while it is still in great shape and everything still humming well.
 
2014-05-12 04:03:59 PM

Flargan: LazyMedia: No, I've read that the cars they're currently making in China just suck. Really unreliable, to the point of making Buick seem like Toyota in comparison. There are already more than 130 million cars in China.

I will just take your word for it.

My friends that travel back and forth to China (charity work mostly) tell me that cars (not just those made domestically) are not considered a primary means of transportation and are viewed as a luxury item.

//In fact the stories I have been told about traffic in Chinese cities would make you believe that cars are useless as a means of transportation.


You're both sort of correct.  As a daily travel option, your average Chinese person gets around with something else besides a car.  However, owning a car is a status symbol in China.  Every single family that wants to be considered upwardly mobile (i.e., all of them) will buy a car.  Only the most patriotic of Chinese will buy a Chinese made car, the citizens know the cars are terrible and unreliable.  Buick is the most desired American brand and Toyota/Honda put a lot of Chinese on their cars to make people forget that they're Japanese owned.

There is a Chinese car culture but there isn't a commuting culture like we may have in the US.  A car to a Chinese person is something they use rarely during the week unless they're VERY wealthy.
 
2014-05-12 04:05:01 PM
BTW GM's issues with suppliers go way back. You GM acting like it was a crime for suppliers to make a profit so suppliers were trying to figure out how to design and make parts for what little GM was willing to pay for them. And when companies like Honda and Toyota showed up to make cars in the US some of the suppliers couldn't run fast enough to bid for those deals. I know some suppliers when they got new deals dropped GM like a hot potato. And this is a couple decades ago, GM management hasn't changed since then.
 
2014-05-12 04:06:47 PM

COMALite J: TV's Vinnie: To be honest, GM can go f*ck themselves. They are the reason why we no longer have trolley cars as mass transit and why we don't have much in the way of high speed or light rail (they bought up all the trolley companies in the 40's & 50's and then converted over to buses. All made by GM of course).
[www.autogallery.org.ru image 519×274]

And then they have the unmitigated gall to run asshole ads like this to discourage people into riding buses and buy huge gas-guzzlers instead to prove how awesome they are to everyone.
[rebuildingfoundationsblog.files.wordpress.com image 313×400]

And riding a bicycle? I bet you're a commie AND pedophile. Either way, you're a loser. Loser commie pedo!
[images.thetruthaboutcars.com image 571×353]

And let's not forget how they pulled up stakes and left Detroit to fend for itself.
[www.islandbreath.org image 520×393]

So f*ck GM hard! They are like a million Comcasts with a Koch Brothers center.
Don't forget GM's partners in crime in that trolley fiasco: Standard Oil, Philips Petroleum, and Firestone. Of course the GM buses burned Standard's and Philips's diesel and ran on Goodwill tires.

They were convicted of fraud and conspiracy in this. It wasn't just that they bought up the trolley companies. It was that they sent salesmen disguised as agents of a non-existent federal mass transportation agency to cities that had trolleys, showing fake studies to convince them to switch to GM buses. The judge who was apparently in their pocket fined GM $5k and their treasurer H. C. Grossman a whopping $1.

It almost sounds like a plot a cartoon villain would come up with in a movie ― like, oh, say, Judge Doom in Who Framed Roger Rabbit? Gues what? That movie scheme was actually based on this real-life criminal conspiracy. There really was a Red Car in Los Angeles, it really was bought out and dismantled, though not by the Cloverleaf Corporation, but rather by a shell organization for GM et al.


GM certainly sped things along, but street trolleys weren't a viable business once roads got good. They were mainly popular when buses were too primitive and roads were too bad to compete. Bus mass transportation is cheaper to maintain than electric street cars; the reason it didn't stay robust is that cars are so much better and they were cheap enough for people to afford (which they weren't in the heyday of street cars). Street cars have the same traffic congestion problem that buses have, and are far more expensive to maintain.
 
2014-05-12 04:06:51 PM
Never cared much for GM as I never found them to have a really appealing car for my taste.

I went with Dodge after my first Grand Caravan was a fun tank to drive, but when I got another Caravan, it had major issues, and I ended up screwed with it, I didn't have much choice (as no one else wanted to take it), and went for a switch to another Grand Caravan (which I have now).

Engine light issues, loose gas cap they said... 1 month later, after warranty runs out, light's back, now it's suddenly a 500-700$ sensor job. I've never bothered with it, bought a reader and just been resetting it, 3 years later and still without issues, and from what I've read, it's something stupid, and a very common Dodge Grand Caravan issue, which they never did a recall on, but is well known.

I get the lifetime anti-rust warranty, they do an inspection in the mid-summer, "no rust".  The following spring, I discover that most of the underside, under the doors, next to the wheels, is completely rusted out when my hand goes right through the panel when I'm doing switching the tires. They claim "I waited too long" and quote me a 1,200$ repair job (considering that this lifetime warranty was 1,500$).  I'm seriously debating what to do about it still... (I'm sure I could get someone to do the repair for a lot less, but I just don't want to invest another cent in it..)

I will NEVER buy Dodge or american again.
 
2014-05-12 04:06:54 PM
gweilo8888: brandent: It's not anymore. Much of the content is US made. They have greatly increased their US presence. For instance this plant started making engines in 2012.
http://www.hmmausa.com/hyundai-motor-manufacturing-alabama-expands-e ng ine-plant/
But America still doesn't have the first clue how to pronounce it. (And nor does Britain, for that matter.)
Hint: It's not "Hunn-day", and nor is it "High-Oon-Die"


Say Hyun-Dai. If you want to go the next step project it from the bottom of your throat (vs your tongue) when you say it.
 
2014-05-12 04:12:28 PM

bungle_jr: vudukungfu: I'll be first to say they suck.
they suck at design, and they sick at service.
They sold me a POS lemon and fark them to hell and fark the assholes that used MY farking tax money to bail their sorry asses out. 
That's communism at the worst.
Farking assholes.

Hope they rot in farking hell.

Never will ever own a POS GM product again.
And Yes, I pay farking cash when I buy a car.

fyi, they paid it back

not white-knighting...only gm i would buy is a vette...just stating fact

ObscureNameHere: Not Chrysler!?!?!!?

Or, are they not considered 'US Manufacturer' anymore?

not that i've ever been a big fan of chrysler*, but they officially died, in my opinion, when they got themselves bought by fiat! now we have these ugly little 500s every farking where!

*i've owned 2 chryslers...one eagle summit, one dodge avenger...ONLY reason i went with either was the mitsubishi engine


They may have paid the loan back but tax payers still ate $11billion when the govt finally cut and ran from GM.

So GM lives to fight another day. I can't speak to what the article is about since I'm not a parts supplier to GM. However, I think they are doing some good things with some of their newer models.

I hope they can learn from past mistakes, but it doesn't seem likely.
 
2014-05-12 04:14:07 PM

Slaves2Darkness: AeAe: I'm getting a kick because i just bought a Jeep Grand Cherokee.

I'm sorry. I hope your life insurance is paid up.


Beat me to it.  How very unfortunate.
 
2014-05-12 04:16:06 PM

Enemabag Jones: The_EliteOne
No issues with my 2012 convertible camaro. Bought it with 12.5k miles on it. Just passed 25k.
All these poo-poo GM threads though, man they make me worry that issues are going to hit me like a truck very, very soon.

Expect the electronics to start to go at about 120k.

I might be wrong by a few K here or there, but my best guess is start to consider letting it go at 75 K while it is still in great shape and everything still humming well.


Thanks, and to all the posters above me as well. I think if I get 75k out of her, that would be excellent. That will give me 6 -  10 years with her depending on how many trips to Vermont or S.C. to see family.
Might just do ZipCar for those trips now.

Too bad about GM, I have many older people in my family who must remember better times/cars with them. And that whole "Buy Merica' thing"
 
2014-05-12 04:17:38 PM

LazyMedia: mike_d85: LazyMedia: Flargan: LazyMedia: Chinese people would rather own a clapped out used Buick than a new Chinese-made car.

I think it is closer to "Many Chinese people are accustomed to Bikes, Scooters, and Public transit".

It can take a few generations to create a car-culture.

No, I've read that the cars they're currently making in China just suck. Really unreliable, to the point of making Buick seem like Toyota in comparison. There are already more than 130 million cars in China.

So, slightly below average cars seem like slightly above average?
http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&story=iqsBrand&su b ject=iqs">http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&story=i qsBrand&sub ject=iqs

I'm always reading articles about the supposed reliability of American cars these days, but I never hear any anecdotal evidence of it. Could be confirmation bias, but on these car threads, you'll get dozens of people biatching about their POS unreliable American cars and singing the praises of Toyota and Honda, and very few saying anything different.

My experience was with a PT Cruiser. Bought new in 2003, had it for 10 years, had a few problems that needed repair like an engine control chip. Nothing really good about it other than the looks and ability to haul stuff; it drove like crap out of the box and tended to eat brake pads, tires and gasoline (25 mpg). Last year it started using a lot of oil, and leaking radiator fluid. Turned out the engine block had cracked at 90,000 miles. On the other hand, we bought a Honda Civic new in 1995. Fun to drive, insanely good mileage. Never had anything wrong with it other than scheduled maintenance for 15 years; eventually had to replace the air conditioning condenser. Drove it for 140,000 miles and sold it earlier this year as a reliable runner.

I dunno who fills out those J.D. Power questionnaires, but their experience doesn't track anything that actual people tell me.


You drove a PT Cruiser for 10 years? Seriously?
 
2014-05-12 04:17:53 PM

TV's Vinnie: I'm pregnant


Mazel tov!
 
2014-05-12 04:24:25 PM
jaybeezey
They may have paid the loan back but tax payers still ate $11billion when the govt finally cut and ran from GM.
So GM lives to fight another day. I can't speak to what the article is about since I'm not a parts supplier to GM. However, I think they are doing some good things with some of their newer models.
I hope they can learn from past mistakes, but it doesn't seem likely.


In the mid-80's a decision was made that they were in the business of making money. Somewhere between 1986 and 2008 making cars was a random sideline.

Toyota and Honda, seemed like they were in the business of making improved cars and making money, Ford made great cars that for some strange reason were not available in the US. GM seemed to be more concerned with how to make more money for the next quarter.

\Not sure if bailing them out was the right choice, but maybe it saved the economy.
\\When will Inbev start to fail?
 
2014-05-12 04:26:21 PM

Kahabut: LazyMedia: Kahabut: LazyMedia: One bit of good news for GM. When the list of car makers was expanded to include the three German auto companies, which have a far less significant market share in the U.S., suppliers said Daimler AG's Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen AG were even harder to deal with.

See, the krauts are bigger jerks to their suppliers than Government Motors even. Germans!

/BMW did well on the survey, because they are jolly Bavarians.

BMW did well because (for the most part) they make really nice cars, out of really nice bits.  Then they service it properly and correctly.

Over 1million miles on BMW cars (3 of them).  I <3 me a BMW.  Comfortable, fast and tough.  What else do you need in a car?

The story isn't about customer service; it's about how they relate to their suppliers.

BMWs are fun cars, but not particularly good value for money. They're not super reliable and they are VERY expensive to buy and maintain. If you want to spend the money for that kind of car, they're probably as good as a Lexus or Audi in terms of value for money, but they're no Toyota or Honda.

I hear this a lot from people that don't own BMWs.

On a dollar for dollar basis, I have no doubt other cars come out ahead.  But let me just cover this little bit of bullshiat.  "bmws cost more to maintain".  More than what?  I have a MILLION miles, spread across 3 BMWs.  I paid less than $10,000 for each car when I bought it.  I pay roughly $1000/year for service, which includes tires/brakes.  I think you'd be hard pressed to find similar outcomes with anything other than a Toyota.  And while you're at it, find me a 400hp Toyota, or honda, with 4 doors and room for adults in the back seat.  Good luck.

Now, I have also owned several other cars, ford, mazda, nissan, toyota.  Most of these were cheaper to buy, and more expensive to keep running than the BMWs I prefer.  It could be I just have bad taste/luck in cars, but in my experience (which is obviously not diverse enough to be ...


This. We've owned 7, and they've been remarkably reliable. Much cheaper to keep running than the Subaru or Nissan we owned. If you get a 2wd inline-6 or 4 banger built before, say, 2005, they're easy to work on too.

And a CSB tying this in to the GM theme: I do some racing, in a 20 year old BMW. A long time friend races an F-body (Camaro/Firebird) of similar vintage. He told me once a few years ago, "You BMW guys drive me nuts. You beat the crap out of your cars all season, all you ever do is change the oil, and they never break. I'm thrilled if I can make it through a weekend without anything breaking."
 
2014-05-12 04:28:27 PM

LazyMedia: mike_d85: LazyMedia: Flargan: LazyMedia: Chinese people would rather own a clapped out used Buick than a new Chinese-made car.

I think it is closer to "Many Chinese people are accustomed to Bikes, Scooters, and Public transit".

It can take a few generations to create a car-culture.

No, I've read that the cars they're currently making in China just suck. Really unreliable, to the point of making Buick seem like Toyota in comparison. There are already more than 130 million cars in China.

So, slightly below average cars seem like slightly above average?
http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&story=iqsBrand&su b ject=iqs">http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&story=i qsBrand&sub ject=iqs

I'm always reading articles about the supposed reliability of American cars these days, but I never hear any anecdotal evidence of it. Could be confirmation bias, but on these car threads, you'll get dozens of people biatching about their POS unreliable American cars and singing the praises of Toyota and Honda, and very few saying anything different.

My experience was with a PT Cruiser. Bought new in 2003, had it for 10 years, had a few problems that needed repair like an engine control chip. Nothing really good about it other than the looks and ability to haul stuff; it drove like crap out of the box and tended to eat brake pads, tires and gasoline (25 mpg). Last year it started using a lot of oil, and leaking radiator fluid. Turned out the engine block had cracked at 90,000 miles. On the other hand, we bought a Honda Civic new in 1995. Fun to drive, insanely good mileage. Never had anything wrong with it other than scheduled maintenance for 15 years; eventually had to replace the air conditioning condenser. Drove it for 140,000 miles and sold it earlier this year as a reliable runner.

I dunno who fills out those J.D. Power questionnaires, but their experience doesn't track anything that actual people tell me.


If I remember right it's based on actual service numbers from repair centers themselves.  It's the NUMBER of repairs, not the SEVERITY of the repairs.  I remember specifically that it doesn't include tire and brake wear.
 
2014-05-12 04:30:13 PM
Never had a problem with GM vehicles. Maybe I've just been lucky.

'67 Camaro (crashed into bridge abutment)
<brief interlude with Datsun 200- sold at 230K miles>
'82 LeMans (sold at 108K miles)
'88 Cavalier (sold at 160K miles)
<brief interlude with Ford Ranger- sold at 100K miles>
'92 Lumina (sold at 140K miles)
'97 Park Avenue (still have)
<brief interlude with inherited Ford Van- traded in at 230K miles>
'04 LeSabre (still have)

The Park Avenue is the best car I've ever driven- including the Lincoln Executive Series. Smooth, comfortable. Solid, dependable V-6. Power everything. Heads-up display. Great car.

Next vehicle will be whichever manufacturer sells a truck or SUV with all the bells and whistles (specifically including HUD) I have on the Park Avenue AND AWD/4WD, 4-wheel indendent suspension. The leading contenders at the moment are BMW X5, Lexus RX350, GMC Acadia. I'd love to have a Subaru or the Toyota Venza, but they don't come with the heads-up display.
 
2014-05-12 04:31:55 PM
Gm did make some good vehicles but not very recently. I had, and still have mind you, a 95 chevy s10 with the 4.3l v6. Damn thing is a tank. properly maintained and im at 245,000 ish miles and never been down for other than routine maint. That said when I decided to buy different cars I went with Ford Current vehicke is a 2010 F150 and providing I get the same life out of it I did with the chevy I will be around 65 when I look to replace.
By then I may say fark it and just stay home
 
2014-05-12 04:36:17 PM

packman_jon: Anyone RTFA?


Suppliers gave GM low marks on all kinds of key measures, including its overall trustworthiness, its communication skills, and its protection of intellectual property.

So basically, their Tier 1 suppliers (the firms that sell parts directly to GM) hate them.


.. And that is because GM is like Walmart..

GM : F U .. give us a 5% discount a year over year

Tier  : Uh.. lemme check on that - sub suppliers, we need to offer 5% to GM

Subs : We can't do that, we are barely making anything on these knudler valves now!

Tier :  Hi GM? yeah , there is no way we can do that, let us explai...

GM : F U you effin worms!!  Give us the discount or we'll cut you out of everything.

Tier : Subs, give us the discount or we'l cut you out of everything.. oh and have 5000 conference calls with GM where they can scream at you maggots..

In Toyota world is goes like this.

 Toyota : Hello, what can we do to reduce costs this part?

 Tier - Uh.. wait .. what?  Um, we aren't making much at all on this now.

 Toyota: We understand, but could you share with us your margins?

 Tier : I guess.. we make 11%

 Toyota : Ok, if we send in our team of process experts and work with you to maintain that margin but lower overall costs through a VA/VE effort would that be acceptable?

 Tier :  Who is this you sick bastard..

/ In the GM supply chain
// Fark GM with a glowing nuclear fuel rod.. right in the cornhole
/// Fark 'em repeatedly
 
2014-05-12 04:58:17 PM

WhyteRaven74: BTW GM's issues with suppliers go way back. You GM acting like it was a crime for suppliers to make a profit so suppliers were trying to figure out how to design and make parts for what little GM was willing to pay for them. And when companies like Honda and Toyota showed up to make cars in the US some of the suppliers couldn't run fast enough to bid for those deals. I know some suppliers when they got new deals dropped GM like a hot potato. And this is a couple decades ago, GM management hasn't changed since then.


I've been privileged to listen to an engineer who is working on a project for Ford (of course I didn't get specific details, he wouldn't leak that) and a former GM underwriter, and basically what I got was the technology for Chevy has been behind everybody else for decades.  So, I believe you.  I see a big difference between my last Chevy van and my recent Ford, yet same year models with years apart.  It took years for Chevy to catch up to the rest of industry for having hidden antennas, and that is simple stuff.
 
2014-05-12 05:08:16 PM

Wenchmaster: Next vehicle will be whichever manufacturer sells a truck or SUV with all the bells and whistles (specifically including HUD) I have on the Park Avenue AND AWD/4WD, 4-wheel indendent suspension. The leading contenders at the moment are BMW X5, Lexus RX350, GMC Acadia. I'd love to have a Subaru or the Toyota Venza, but they don't come with the heads-up display.


I just saw a Nissan Maxima commercial where I thought they said they have AWD.  It was news to me and I haven't gotten to research it yet.
 
2014-05-12 05:09:19 PM
I got 40 thousand miles out of my last car a chevy cruze, picked it up with 7500 miles

.
.
.

.
.
.
.
.
wrecked at 4700 ish and totaled by insurance
 
2014-05-12 05:14:21 PM
loonatic112358
I got 40 thousand miles out of my last car a chevy cruze, picked it up with 7500 miles
wrecked at 4700 ish and totaled by insurance


Are all of the forward gears broken?
 
2014-05-12 05:23:23 PM

Enemabag Jones: Are all of the forward gears broken?


There was a distinct lack of traction due to the thickness of the rubber road gripping surface not being changed within the recommended parameters


the results were that the passenger side rear wheel became a drivers side object, and I received a bill to clean up the mess I made on the county toll road
 
2014-05-12 05:31:05 PM
loonatic112358
There was a distinct lack of traction due to the thickness of the rubber road gripping surface not being changed within the recommended parameters
the results were that the passenger side rear wheel became a drivers side object, and I received a bill to clean up the mess I made on the county toll road


It was a joke about the typo on the milage reading. Good answer too.
 
2014-05-12 05:33:22 PM

Enemabag Jones: It was a joke about the typo on the milage reading. Good answer too.


I missed my own typo, leaving farkers to do the math, and they never expect math


All in All I just made another knick on the wall
 
2014-05-12 05:43:36 PM
Been in the Car business all my life. Have driven at least a dozen Fleet cars from my co. over the years from the Big 3. out of all of them at the time the Plymouth Acclaims were very reliable with nary a problem. The std Olds Ciera later was GM's bread and butter and had no problems. Last Ford I drove was a Mercury Monarch in the 80's that was OK too. Doing Fleet work for the rental car co's, & Lease returns for many others I never developed a Favorite. If you work with cars all the time, you just don't put the Value on them that most people do. The last several years we were heavily involved with MB and BMW, OK but Pricey. I look more at the Inside since that's where you ARE all the time, not Outside so that's the most important. I guess you have to like the European styling inside but they don't do that much for me. Right now I think the Koreans are eating everyone else's Lunch. Just don't care for Nissans. I think I looked at too many of them over the years, that's when I saw that Infiniti's were just glorified Maximas. Hondas, everyone wants them so they cost more than Toyota & Nissan for the same stuff. Toyota is OK but doesn't excite me in particular. I bought my Hyundai Sonata in 2010 after at least a year of comparing Brand/Features/Price. I fully expect it to last me the full 10yrs since I have only 38K on it now. The new Kia's coming out now are just Amazing for the price.
 
2014-05-12 05:49:55 PM

Lapdance: I bought my Hyundai Sonata in 2010 after at least a year of comparing Brand/Features/Price. I fully expect it to last me the full 10yrs since I have only 38K on it now. The new Kia's coming out now are just Amazing for the price.


If you don't mind styling that looks like they just randomly copied bits off other companies with real designers, and you don't mind build quality that disintegrates almost as quickly as you look at it, Kia and Hyundai are awesome.

/owned a Kia
//dash turned into a pretzel under normal sunlight, and stayed that way
 
2014-05-12 06:20:56 PM

bungle_jr: vudukungfu: bungle_jr: fyi, they paid it back

FYI they should NEVER HAVE GOTTEN IT IN THE FIRST PLACE!

They failed. They failed be cause they SUCKASS and they deserved to die DIE DIE

They should have been buried under the more successful, less sucky competition.

Fark them in the ass.

i do agree with you
but i still have to give the kudos for getting it paid back...whether they deserved it in the first place or not

at least they didn't get bought out by scania or peugot, or some other shiatty euro brand like chrysler did with fiat


they didn't really pay it back, research it.
 
2014-05-12 06:24:24 PM
Heh...it's Government Motors. Nuff said.
 
2014-05-12 06:24:41 PM

Wenchmaster: Never had a problem with GM vehicles. Maybe I've just been lucky.

'67 Camaro (crashed into bridge abutment)
<brief interlude with Datsun 200- sold at 230K miles>
'82 LeMans (sold at 108K miles)
'88 Cavalier (sold at 160K miles)
<brief interlude with Ford Ranger- sold at 100K miles>
'92 Lumina (sold at 140K miles)
'97 Park Avenue (still have)
<brief interlude with inherited Ford Van- traded in at 230K miles>
'04 LeSabre (still have)

The Park Avenue is the best car I've ever driven- including the Lincoln Executive Series. Smooth, comfortable. Solid, dependable V-6. Power everything. Heads-up display. Great car.

Next vehicle will be whichever manufacturer sells a truck or SUV with all the bells and whistles (specifically including HUD) I have on the Park Avenue AND AWD/4WD, 4-wheel indendent suspension. The leading contenders at the moment are BMW X5, Lexus RX350, GMC Acadia. I'd love to have a Subaru or the Toyota Venza, but they don't come with the heads-up display.


My 01 cavalier, which is a terrible car from the standpoint of looks, fit an finish, interior, etc, just runs and runs, doesn't burn a drop of oil, and has needed no expensive repairs.

I kinda wish the thing would die, so i'd have an excuse to get rid of it..


The post bankruptcy stuff like the equinox, malibu, and the new impala are really good products.
 
2014-05-12 07:09:20 PM

Needlessly Complicated: GM's biggest mistake was getting rid of the Pontiac and Saturn lines. Pontiac gave you a high-performance engine at an afordable price. Saturn gave you a simple, affordable car with a simple, friendly buying experience. Those were about the only good things GM had going for it.

/My Saturn lasted 13 years before it started having major mechanical problems. It was smooth sailing before then and I was a very happy GM customer. I'd happily replace my Saturn with another Saturn if I could.


Saturn lost GM billions of dollars.  Building an entire new dealer network (when they already had about a half a dozen) to sell one, inexpensive, compact car (they added other models later on) was always going to be a money losing proposition, no matter how good the car (or the dealership "experience") was.  At one point they were going to be a subdivision of Oldsmobile (ala Scion for Toyota), which would have made more sense and might have kept Olds from being cut (at least for awhile).  As for their quality, they were better that a Chevy Cavalier but worse than a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic.
 
2014-05-12 07:21:06 PM
Vehicles I've owned in chronological order
year, make, model, mileage when bought, mileage when disposed of, impressions

1992 subaru loyale. 263k, 275k, she was a tank, but slow and boring. always thought she was going to explode on the interstate
2005 toyota matrix xrs, 34, 125k, loved this car. bought her new, only problems she ever had were my fault
1986 porsche 944, unknown, unknown, I was a bit too ambitious thinking I could restore this one. used her for parts
1988 porsche 944, 2xxk, still own it. she's a lot of fun, but i've had to put a lot of work and money into keeping her running.
1997 subaru outback, 189k, still own it (250k), this vehicle is cursed by Satan himself.
2009 suzuki gs500f, 1, still own it (7200), love the bike. 60 mpg, faster than your hybrid.
2006 bmw 330xi, 62700,still own it (72700), great daily, good on the highway and in the snow.

I've never owned an american car... I grew up with them, and learned to drive with them. I've only ever bought japanese and german (and I've generally had fewer problems)
 
2014-05-12 07:22:59 PM

COMALite J: TV's Vinnie: To be honest, GM can go f*ck themselves. They are the reason why we no longer have trolley cars as mass transit and why we don't have much in the way of high speed or light rail (they bought up all the trolley companies in the 40's & 50's and then converted over to buses. All made by GM of course).
[www.autogallery.org.ru image 519×274]

And then they have the unmitigated gall to run asshole ads like this to discourage people into riding buses and buy huge gas-guzzlers instead to prove how awesome they are to everyone.
[rebuildingfoundationsblog.files.wordpress.com image 313×400]

And riding a bicycle? I bet you're a commie AND pedophile. Either way, you're a loser. Loser commie pedo!
[images.thetruthaboutcars.com image 571×353]

And let's not forget how they pulled up stakes and left Detroit to fend for itself.
[www.islandbreath.org image 520×393]

So f*ck GM hard! They are like a million Comcasts with a Koch Brothers center.
Don't forget GM's partners in crime in that trolley fiasco: Standard Oil, Philips Petroleum, and Firestone. Of course the GM buses burned Standard's and Philips's diesel and ran on Goodwill tires.

They were convicted of fraud and conspiracy in this. It wasn't just that they bought up the trolley companies. It was that they sent salesmen disguised as agents of a non-existent federal mass transportation agency to cities that had trolleys, showing fake studies to convince them to switch to GM buses. The judge who was apparently in their pocket fined GM $5k and their treasurer H. C. Grossman a whopping $1.

It almost sounds like a plot a cartoon villain would come up with in a movie ― like, oh, say, Judge Doom in Who Framed Roger Rabbit? Gues what? That movie scheme was actually based on this real-life criminal conspiracy. There really was a Red Car in Los Angeles, it really was bought out and dismantled, though not by the Cloverleaf Corporation, but rather by a shell organization for GM et al.


Yeah, but street cars actually sucked compared to buses (buses have a better ride comfort for passengers, have the ability to deviate from a set route, and cost less per mile to operate, especially after the electric companies were forced to sell them so there was less economy of scale) and especially to privately owned cars (which are superior in almost all aspects to any form of private transit-want to go somewhere at 3 am?  Want to carry a week's worth of groceries instead of a day's?).  All the street car companies were losing money long before GM was involved.
 
2014-05-12 07:32:03 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2014-05-12 07:36:52 PM

gweilo8888: Lapdance: I bought my Hyundai Sonata in 2010 after at least a year of comparing Brand/Features/Price. I fully expect it to last me the full 10yrs since I have only 38K on it now. The new Kia's coming out now are just Amazing for the price.

If you don't mind styling that looks like they just randomly copied bits off other companies with real designers, and you don't mind build quality that disintegrates almost as quickly as you look at it, Kia and Hyundai are awesome.

/owned a Kia
//dash turned into a pretzel under normal sunlight, and stayed that way


I love my Kia Rio.

That being said, I am currently looking at buying new units to be converted into ambulances, and I am all for the Ram Promaster for a van style chassis. Gas engine with plenty of power, plenty of room for conversion in back, and able to leave room for crew to be comfortable in the front. For less than a smaller Sprinter with no Gasoline option. Also looking at converting our few Modular units we are keeping to Ram 4500 Chassis.
 
2014-05-12 07:51:24 PM

globalwarmingpraiser: That being said, I am currently looking at buying new units to be converted into ambulances, and I am all for the Ram Promaster for a van style chassis. Gas engine with plenty of power, plenty of room for conversion in back, and able to leave room for crew to be comfortable in the front. For less than a smaller Sprinter with no Gasoline option. Also looking at converting our few Modular units we are keeping to Ram 4500 Chassis.



Why Gas, diesel is more efficient, and tends to be more reliable. 

Is the dodge actually taller? I ran into a family that had a sprinter as a personal van and that thing was tall, at least 6' inside
 
2014-05-12 08:05:45 PM

J. Frank Parnell: realmolo: I won't even get into the economics of buying a new car. Suffice it to say, a new car is pretty much the worst way to spend your money.

Lose 10 grand of their value the minute you drive them off the lot.
 
Really good investment.


Bingo.  If you look in the right places, and aren't all hung up on the color, you can find a deal.  Just be patient.

I found my current truck (2004 Tundra) in 2006 with only 1,400 miles on it.  It belonged to an old farmer who died a few months after he bought it, and it sat until,the estate was settled.  While every single damn car I've ever had has been one form of red or another, except my 1984 Trans Am and 1986 Ranger, which both were black.   Anyway, my Tundra still had the brand new smell even after 18 months, and it still had half the warranty left on it, and not a speck of paint work or other issues.  I managed to pay $21,000 for a more or less brand new truck.  I have yet to buy any new vehicle yet.  I might someday, maybe.
 
2014-05-12 08:11:54 PM

loonatic112358: Voiceofreason01: bdub77: Every time I step into a Toyota I feel like they built the car just for me

I've never driven a Toyota that I like. They're practical, economical, well designed and incredibly boring.

I'll add, built for people who aren't over 6'4"


And you'd be wrong about that. I used to have a friend who was 6'8", and he had no problem fitting into my Camry, with room to spare. He drove a Nissan Sentra, himself.
 
2014-05-12 08:12:21 PM

globalwarmingpraiser: I love my Kia Rio.


you opinion now officially holds no weight.
The rio is a soulless appliance. Having love for such a thing is like saying that you love your blender.
/had a rio as a rental for a week
//wanted to set it on fire by the time it was over.
 
2014-05-12 08:12:30 PM

bungle_jr: at least they didn't get bought out by scania or peugot, or some other shiatty euro brand like chrysler did with fiat


Referring to any European auto maker as "shiatty" by comparison to any US automaker is hi-diddly-I-LARIOUS! The auto industry operates as follows:

* First tier -- Japanese, manufactured in Japan
* Second tier -- Japanese, manufactured outside Japan
* Third tier -- Western European
* Fifth tier -- American
* Sixth tier -- Korean
* Seventh tier -- The rest of the world

/there is no fourth tier, because to say America was fourth would be to overstate its excellence.
 
2014-05-12 08:30:24 PM

Kahabut: I hear this a lot from people that don't own BMWs.

On a dollar for dollar basis, I have no doubt other cars come out ahead. But let me just cover this little bit of bullshiat. "bmws cost more to maintain". More than what? I have a MILLION miles, spread across 3 BMWs. I paid less than $10,000 for each car when I bought it. I pay roughly $1000/year for service, which includes tires/brakes.


You say "$1000/year" as if it's not a lot of money. That's about what we spend on the Durango we bought a couple of years ago, and personally, I think that's outrageous. I would never have bought the thing, if I had known that, in advance. No car should cost that much to maintain, especially one that costs more than $50k, new.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find similar outcomes with anything other than a Toyota.

My Corolla, on the other hand, is 20 years old, and costs me maybe $100/year to maintain. I change the oil every couple of years, I change the brakes when they start to grind, and I change the tires when they're bald. The thing still runs like new.

And while you're at it, find me a 400hp Toyota, or honda, with 4 doors and room for adults in the back seat. Good luck.

Yeah, I suppose if you want to piss your money away, but whatever... it's your money. I just hope you're not one of those Fark Conservatives (tm) who's always biatching about your taxes...
 
2014-05-12 08:47:47 PM

LazyMedia: I'm always reading articles about the supposed reliability of American cars these days, but I never hear any anecdotal evidence of it. Could be confirmation bias, but on these car threads, you'll get dozens of people biatching about their POS unreliable American cars and singing the praises of Toyota and Honda, and very few saying anything different.


Yeah, I've owned a bunch of Toyotas (3 Camrys and a Corolla), and every one of them was awesome. I've never owned a Honda, but between my parents and I, we've owned a few Nissans, and we have no complaints about them, either.

One of the best cars I ever owned was a 1982 Nissan Maxima, with a Diesel engine, I bought from my parents. It rarely needed service, and got something like 42 miles to the gallon. I was living in Tucson, at the time, and my parents lived in Phoenix. I used to visit them almost every weekend. Also, the price of gas was about 10-20 cents/gallon cheaper in Phoenix, so I'd fill up before I left my parents place, drive to Tucson, drive around all week, and drive back to Phoenix, on the same tank. I never had to pay Tucson prices for fuel.
 
2014-05-12 09:08:22 PM
With most of there cars built in Mexico can you really call GM a U.S. auto maker?
 
2014-05-12 09:49:09 PM

J. Frank Parnell: realmolo: I won't even get into the economics of buying a new car. Suffice it to say, a new car is pretty much the worst way to spend your money.

Lose 10 grand of their value the minute you drive them off the lot.
 
Really good investment.


I don't. I buy Subarus.
 
2014-05-12 10:10:25 PM
I have both gm and ford mostly ford 2 Chevy 2 Pontiacsguess I've been lucky about 15 different cars in about 45 yearsalways having a car and a truck both at the same time never had any majorproblems except replacing tires brakes the usual stuff and have all been Americanmade that everyone hates so muchGM should have keep olds and Pontiac and got rid of Chevy. But that's just my opionMy little Chevy was a great car 69 chevelle
 
2014-05-12 10:31:06 PM

LazyMedia: The only GM car I've ever owned was a very elderly, totally unrestored 1974 Nova (which I loved). I've rented a few in recent years, and Jesus God, those are some awful cars. The Aveo MUST have been designed by Chinese spies bent on destroying American industry. It was as bad as a '70s Chevette, which was my previous bench mark for worst car in history (including the '80s Hyundai Excel).


Suzuki, actually.
 
2014-05-12 11:10:25 PM

atomic-age: I don't. I buy Subarus.


OP phrased it poorly. You can hardly expect to lose 10 grand driving it off the lot when you only spent 30 grand in the first place. Buy a hundred grand car, you'll lose ten grand easily. And you still lose a heck of a lot on a cheaper ride when you drive it off the lot, Subaru or not.

Pretty much exactly the same car, same trim, same color, same dealership, everything --

New: $28,629
http://www.duffsubaru.com/new/Subaru/2014-Subaru-Outback-e656cc1a0a0 a0 0de6cd04cd318fe781c.htm

Less than 7k on the clock: $25,790
http://www.duffsubaru.com/used/Subaru/2014-Subaru-Outback-c93875870a 0a 00de49257d44c219ad49.htm

That's almost three grand in the first 6,800 miles (42 cents a mile of depreciation). Precisely 10% depreciation, if you prefer. And that's dealer retail, mind you. The dealer isn't going to buy it off you for dealer retail. Nor is a private party. More likely, you'll be out six to eight grand at least, if you want to shed the thing.

And almost all of that happened before the car even drove off the lot. The moment you got past any state-mandated cooling off period, the value plunged because the car can't be sold as new.
 
2014-05-12 11:27:33 PM
Not happy in general about corporations getting bailed out, and too big to fail is too big to live.

That said:  In some alternate universe, GM went bust, tens of thousands are out of work and Fox Propaganda is blaming B. Hussein Osama.
 
2014-05-12 11:30:05 PM

Kahabut: LazyMedia: One bit of good news for GM. When the list of car makers was expanded to include the three German auto companies, which have a far less significant market share in the U.S., suppliers said Daimler AG's Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen AG were even harder to deal with.

See, the krauts are bigger jerks to their suppliers than Government Motors even. Germans!

/BMW did well on the survey, because they are jolly Bavarians.

BMW did well because (for the most part) they make really nice cars, out of really nice bits.  Then they service it properly and correctly.

Over 1million miles on BMW cars (3 of them).  I <3 me a BMW.  Comfortable, fast and tough.  What else do you need in a car?


Less of a douchebag image.
 
2014-05-12 11:39:06 PM

gweilo8888: atomic-age: I don't. I buy Subarus.

OP phrased it poorly. You can hardly expect to lose 10 grand driving it off the lot when you only spent 30 grand in the first place. Buy a hundred grand car, you'll lose ten grand easily. And you still lose a heck of a lot on a cheaper ride when you drive it off the lot, Subaru or not.

Pretty much exactly the same car, same trim, same color, same dealership, everything --

New: $28,629
http://www.duffsubaru.com/new/Subaru/2014-Subaru-Outback-e656cc1a0a0 a0 0de6cd04cd318fe781c.htm

Less than 7k on the clock: $25,790
http://www.duffsubaru.com/used/Subaru/2014-Subaru-Outback-c93875870a 0a 00de49257d44c219ad49.htm

That's almost three grand in the first 6,800 miles (42 cents a mile of depreciation). Precisely 10% depreciation, if you prefer. And that's dealer retail, mind you. The dealer isn't going to buy it off you for dealer retail. Nor is a private party. More likely, you'll be out six to eight grand at least, if you want to shed the thing.

And almost all of that happened before the car even drove off the lot. The moment you got past any state-mandated cooling off period, the value plunged because the car can't be sold as new.


Right, but who sells a car with only 7k on it unless it's a lemon?
 
2014-05-13 12:12:54 AM

bdub77: Tr0mBoNe: I can see it... most of their cars have the aesthetic styling of a pancreas.

It's so frustrating that for a while the only semi-affordable EVs that didn't look like death traps were the Volt and the Leaf because I've never driven a Chevy I didn't hate within the first minute of stepping into the vehicle, the cabin is always poorly designed. Every time I step into a Toyota I feel like they built the car just for me. And with the Leaf it was merely an issue with distance - definitely a good commuting car but only 70 miles under less than ideal conditions is not good.

Fords are kind of in between, and Nissans always feel great except for the fact I always feel they have high center of gravity and I could flip them in an instant.

I won't have money to buy a new car for 3 years but then I'm definitely going with an EV or hybrid EV if it's within affordability - the Teslas are looking amazing.


I own a VOLT, it's one of the best cars I have ever owned. A lot of VOLT owners joke that it is the best car no one has never heard of. The car is just amazing and probably one of the best things GM has done yet they marketed it so piss poor. Right now I have about 23k miles on the odometer and last month I went 1100 miles and only 66 of those were on gas. The car is worth every penny. Electric torque is also pretty nice to have.
 
2014-05-13 12:15:03 AM

brandent: The more you eat the more you fart: hitmanric: ObscureNameHere: Not Chrysler!?!?!!?

Or, are they not considered 'US Manufacturer' anymore?

Are there really any US manufacturers anymore? Chrysler is now owned by Fiat. GMs are branded as Holdens in Aussieland and Vauxhalls in Europe. Fords have had a strong market share in Europe and Latin America for decades now. And all 3 have plants outside of the US.

Nissan trucks = made in USA.

85% of Hyundais that are sold in the USA are also built in the USA.  They are the 'most American' car company.


Most of my wife's Hyundai Veloster Turbo was actually made an assembled in korea. It might be different for other line of Hyundai cars but I know on the dealer slip it was like 75% made and assembled in korea.

I like the car a lot, it's a zippy little thing and it's got a unique look.
 
2014-05-13 12:17:07 AM

Cyclometh: I love my Volt.

Driven about 8 thousand miles, put gas in it three times. Drives great, handles well, gotten good support from my dealer for the few minor issues it's had like the outlet cover sticking, and is super comfortable.


Hey VOLT owner, welcome to the club. I have owned mine for a little over a year now and I love the thing. Best car I have ever owned. With the 240 v charger in my garage  and work now installing plugs by my request I don't think I will use gas for a long long time. As it is last month I went 1100 miles and only used 66 miles of gas. Enjoy the car I find it to be well built and so far only one minor issue.
 
2014-05-13 12:43:18 AM
I've put a ton of miles on my Chevy Cruze. Best car i've ever owned, not a single issue. Plus i'm happy to keep as much of those dollars as possible in North America and support a traditional American brand.

P.S. the misleading headline is sad subby.
 
2014-05-13 01:06:37 AM

LazyMedia: gweilo8888: atomic-age: I don't. I buy Subarus.

Right, but who sells a car with only 7k on it unless it's a lemon?


Coming from a car dealing family, LOTS of people sell their cars with only a few thousand miles on them,  they get sick of them too fast, it wasn't what they thought they wanted, too big/small, etc.  whatever.  Not only that, but economic issues, baby in the family, the list goes on and on.  And, now with CarFax, you can check out most car histories as far as collision issues.  The biggest thing to worry about is collision/frame damage.  Not easy to repair.  And paint work makes selling a car a fair amount tougher.  Any add with "new paint" will get skipped by most people.  It might as well say "was taken out at red light by errant 18-wheeler".
 
2014-05-13 01:25:53 AM

LazyMedia: Right, but who sells a car with only 7k on it unless it's a lemon?


That doesn't in any way change my point, which was that Subarus are no more immune to instant depreciation than any other car. As for who returns non-lemon low-mileage cars, the answer to that would be "people with more money than sense, and an overwhelming sense of buyer's remorse."
 
2014-05-13 02:00:52 AM

bungle_jr: vudukungfu: I'll be first to say they suck.
they suck at design, and they sick at service.
They sold me a POS lemon and fark them to hell and fark the assholes that used MY farking tax money to bail their sorry asses out. 
That's communism at the worst.
Farking assholes.

Hope they rot in farking hell.

Never will ever own a POS GM product again.
And Yes, I pay farking cash when I buy a car.

fyi, they paid it back

not white-knighting...only gm i would buy is a vette...just stating fact

ObscureNameHere: Not Chrysler!?!?!!?

Or, are they not considered 'US Manufacturer' anymore?

not that i've ever been a big fan of chrysler*, but they officially died, in my opinion, when they got themselves bought by fiat! now we have these ugly little 500s every farking where!

*i've owned 2 chryslers...one eagle summit, one dodge avenger...ONLY reason i went with either was the mitsubishi engine


imganuncios.mitula.net

HEY! You apologize to her RIGHT NOW!

/loves my 500
//this particular one isn't mine, but it's the same color
 
2014-05-13 02:03:48 AM

hitmanric: ObscureNameHere: Not Chrysler!?!?!!?

Or, are they not considered 'US Manufacturer' anymore?

Are there really any US manufacturers anymore? Chrysler is now owned by Fiat. GMs are branded as Holdens in Aussieland and Vauxhalls in Europe. Fords have had a strong market share in Europe and Latin America for decades now. And all 3 have plants outside of the US.



GM bought into and owns Holden, Vauxhall, and Opel. The latter two they have been involved with since before WWII. I just read that the Holden marque is going to disappear.
 
2014-05-13 02:48:13 AM

Kouvre: [imganuncios.mitula.net image 400x300]

HEY! You apologize to her RIGHT NOW!

/loves my 500
//this particular one isn't mine, but it's the same color


Cute car. Don't listen to the small-is-ugly crowd who're permanently stuck in the 1970s.

/but change her wheels
 
2014-05-13 03:09:42 AM

gweilo8888: bungle_jr: at least they didn't get bought out by scania or peugot, or some other shiatty euro brand like chrysler did with fiat

Referring to any European auto maker as "shiatty" by comparison to any US automaker is hi-diddly-I-LARIOUS! The auto industry operates as follows:

* First tier -- Japanese, manufactured in Japan
* Second tier -- Japanese, manufactured outside Japan
* Third tier -- Western European
* Fifth tier -- American
* Sixth tier -- Korean
* Seventh tier -- The rest of the world

/there is no fourth tier, because to say America was fourth would be to overstate its excellence.


I would rather have 1 Hyundai Elantra than 100 Mitsubishis. Korean is so much better than it used to be.
 
2014-05-13 03:58:48 AM
jack_o_the_hills:
// Fark GM with a glowing nuclear fuel rod.. right in the cornhole

Ok bud, I think this is the first time I've LOLed from a Fark thread. You get a +1!
 
2014-05-13 08:01:13 AM

Frederf: gweilo8888: bungle_jr: at least they didn't get bought out by scania or peugot, or some other shiatty euro brand like chrysler did with fiat

Referring to any European auto maker as "shiatty" by comparison to any US automaker is hi-diddly-I-LARIOUS! The auto industry operates as follows:

* First tier -- Japanese, manufactured in Japan
* Second tier -- Japanese, manufactured outside Japan
* Third tier -- Western European
* Fifth tier -- American
* Sixth tier -- Korean
* Seventh tier -- The rest of the world

/there is no fourth tier, because to say America was fourth would be to overstate its excellence.

I would rather have 1 Hyundai Elantra than 100 Mitsubishis. Korean is so much better than it used to be.


Yeah, lumping British, French and Italian cars in with German cars is silly; Korean cars are FAR more reliable than most of the non-German European cars, and not really less reliable than the Germans these days. You can't even really make a broad statement about British cars -- Minis built by BMW are much more reliable than Jags and Rovers built by Tata.
 
2014-05-13 08:02:50 AM

gweilo8888: Kouvre: [imganuncios.mitula.net image 400x300]

HEY! You apologize to her RIGHT NOW!

/loves my 500
//this particular one isn't mine, but it's the same color

Cute car. Don't listen to the small-is-ugly crowd who're permanently stuck in the 1970s.

/but change her wheels


i'm definitely not a "stuck in the 70s" "small is ugly" guy...fiats just are ugly. your opinion may differ, but there are plenty of small cars i love! i've only owned a couple bigger cars...an isuzu rodeo, a 72 chevy nova 4 door...the rest, compact and sub-compact.

my first car was a 1984 honda crx...awesome little car! my current car is a 2005 scion xb, which i personally think is ugly, but loveable. perhaps fiat owners think similarly of theirs?

but i've driven fiats all over northeast italy and HATED them

Frederf: gweilo8888: bungle_jr: at least they didn't get bought out by scania or peugot, or some other shiatty euro brand like chrysler did with fiat

Referring to any European auto maker as "shiatty" by comparison to any US automaker is hi-diddly-I-LARIOUS! The auto industry operates as follows:

* First tier -- Japanese, manufactured in Japan
* Second tier -- Japanese, manufactured outside Japan
* Third tier -- Western European
* Fifth tier -- American
* Sixth tier -- Korean
* Seventh tier -- The rest of the world

/there is no fourth tier, because to say America was fourth would be to overstate its excellence.

I would rather have 1 Hyundai Elantra than 100 Mitsubishis. Korean is so much better than it used to be.


this
we will likely buy a new car this year...or within the next year or so...stupid scions and compact fords just are too damn reliable and fuel efficient to rush into it (i have a scion xb, old style, 2005, my wife has a 2007 focus)

but our top choices include 2 hyundai models, along with vw and subaru...think i have the wife talked into the appearance/reliability of an outback, but test driving will be a factor
 
2014-05-13 09:57:22 AM

Erom: I've put a ton of miles on my Chevy Cruze. Best car i've ever owned, not a single issue. Plus i'm happy to keep as much of those dollars as possible in North America and support a traditional American brand.

P.S. the misleading headline is sad subby.


I miss mine, the damn dealers in the area are marking up used cruzes ridiculously
 
2014-05-13 10:02:34 AM

hiker9999: I've still got my 2004 Mazda6 (19200 miles). Other than the fact the car itself is heavy, it's a fun ride. And I picked up a 2014 Mustang as well.


...and has the turning radius of the moon. For reals, I remember test driving that car, but after a seven point turn to get it out of the parking lot I suggested that we look at something else.
 
2014-05-13 10:39:29 AM

gweilo8888: bungle_jr: at least they didn't get bought out by scania or peugot, or some other shiatty euro brand like chrysler did with fiat

Referring to any European auto maker as "shiatty" by comparison to any US automaker is hi-diddly-I-LARIOUS! The auto industry operates as follows:

* First tier -- Japanese, manufactured in Japan
* Second tier -- Japanese, manufactured outside Japan
* Third tier -- Western European
* Fifth tier -- American
* Sixth tier -- Korean
* Seventh tier -- The rest of the world

/there is no fourth tier, because to say America was fourth would be to overstate its excellence.


This is wrong, IMHO.  (I assume we are talking reliability here.)

First Tier: Honda/Acura/Toyota/Scion/Lexus/Subaru
Second Tier: Everybody else (available in the US; for instance, Chinese made vehicles with Chinese nameplates are in general inferior than anything sold in the US).

Nissan/Infiniti, Mazda, and Mitsubishi (and Isuzu and Suzuki, although those two have pulled out of the US market) are no better than the Detroit Three or the Europeans.  The difference between US built and Japanese built vehicles from the first tier companies is minimal to nonexistent as well (there may have been differences a decade or two ago, but no longer).
 
2014-05-13 10:59:36 AM

Boxcutta: hiker9999: I've still got my 2004 Mazda6 (19200 miles). Other than the fact the car itself is heavy, it's a fun ride. And I picked up a 2014 Mustang as well.

...and has the turning radius of the moon. For reals, I remember test driving that car, but after a seven point turn to get it out of the parking lot I suggested that we look at something else.


Well, yeah.  That too. After nearly a decade, I've gotten used to having to pretend I was docking an oil tanker when parking.
 
2014-05-13 12:01:07 PM
I have an 04 Ion, one of the cars that's been recalled. I haven't bothered taking it in because I figure it will take those idiots more than a day to fix the problem, and  I already replaced the goddamn ignition a couple of years ago. That should have been enough to solve the problem.

I figure that, if I take it in, the stupid bastards at the dealership will need to keep it
overnight, so screw them. I hope I DO get into a fatal crash, just to spite them!
 
2014-05-13 12:02:19 PM
I'm currently using a brand new Buick loaner from the dealership while my wallet is getting assaulted... I mean my swedish sedan is in for the 60,000 service. While the exterior styling of the Buick is not bad, the interior outright sucks. Short and narrow seats not suitable for anyone over 6', unusable cup holders, a display and stereo that eat up all of the dash space and cheap plastic finishes all over the cabin.  It looks put together by a marketing committee and then value engineered within an inch of its life. I wonder who they're trying to appeal to with this car?

/SAAB, never forget.
 
2014-05-13 01:02:55 PM

Frederf: I would rather have 1 Hyundai Elantra than 100 Mitsubishis. Korean is so much better than it used to be.


Well, there's no accounting for taste. I've owned Korean within the last ten years, and I've owned Mitsubishi within the last ten years. The two were in completely different classes.The Kia was falling to pieces within a couple of years and barely made it to 100k, where other than some panel dings and a small hole in the driver's seat where it rubbed every time I got in, the Mitsubishi looked almost new at 160k, and the engine was as strong as the day it left the factory.

LazyMedia: Yeah, lumping British, French and Italian cars in with German cars is silly; Korean cars are FAR more reliable than most of the non-German European cars, and not really less reliable than the Germans these days. You can't even really make a broad statement about British cars -- Minis built by BMW are much more reliable than Jags and Rovers built by Tata.


British cars -- what are those? The UK doesn't have an auto industry any more, unless you count overseas-brands-but-assembled-in-the-UK as British. As for French and Italian, Renault and Fiat are far more reliable than anything I've seen from Korea.

Geotpf: This is wrong, IMHO.  (I assume we are talking reliability here.)

First Tier: Honda/Acura/Toyota/Scion/Lexus/Subaru
Second Tier: Everybody else (available in the US; for instance, Chinese made vehicles with Chinese nameplates are in general inferior than anything sold in the US).

Nissan/Infiniti, Mazda, and Mitsubishi (and Isuzu and Suzuki, although those two have pulled out of the US market) are no better than the Detroit Three or the Europeans.  The difference between US built and Japanese built vehicles from the first tier companies is minimal to nonexistent as well (there may have been differences a decade or two ago, but no longer).


Reliability, build quality (closely related), and technology.

Nissan / Infinity, Mazda, and Mitsubishi are leagues ahead of Detroit's crap. (I should know, two of my last three vehicles were a Mitsubishi and a Mazda). And if you can't tell the difference, well... you're deluded. US quality isn't even up to Japanese-built-in-the-US quality, let alone Japanese-built-in-Japan quality. And by and large, the tech of US cars lags even further behind. The money here goes into making them bigger, exterior styling, and interior gimmicks, not into the tech that actually counts for drivability.
 
2014-05-13 02:40:40 PM

gweilo8888: British cars -- what are those? The UK doesn't have an auto industry any more,


Not in the midrange market
 
2014-05-13 06:13:47 PM

LazyMedia: Frederf: gweilo8888: bungle_jr: at least they didn't get bought out by scania or peugot, or some other shiatty euro brand like chrysler did with fiat

Referring to any European auto maker as "shiatty" by comparison to any US automaker is hi-diddly-I-LARIOUS! The auto industry operates as follows:

* First tier -- Japanese, manufactured in Japan
* Second tier -- Japanese, manufactured outside Japan
* Third tier -- Western European
* Fifth tier -- American
* Sixth tier -- Korean
* Seventh tier -- The rest of the world

/there is no fourth tier, because to say America was fourth would be to overstate its excellence.

I would rather have 1 Hyundai Elantra than 100 Mitsubishis. Korean is so much better than it used to be.

Yeah, lumping British, French and Italian cars in with German cars is silly; Korean cars are FAR more reliable than most of the non-German European cars, and not really less reliable than the Germans these days. You can't even really make a broad statement about British cars -- Minis built by BMW are much more reliable than Jags and Rovers built by Tata.




Lumping any cars into any group like this is just a shortcut, preferred by angry idiots, in lieu of actual analysis.

The modern automobile is an appliance, and the difference between any particular brand of similarly priced vehicle is nothing compared to the difference in a modern vehicle and one made 25 years ago.

Do the scheduled maintenance, change the oil every 10000 miles or so, and you'll likely get tired of it long before it dies.. Like I said, I'm the owner of an early 00s cavalier, arguably one of the worst non-Chrysler vehicles in the last 20 years, and it won't die, despite my halfassed maintenance, and general neglect.
 
2014-05-13 08:07:09 PM

dforkus: I'm the owner of an early 00s cavalier, arguably one of the worst non-Chrysler vehicles in the last 20 years, and it won't die, despite my halfassed maintenance, and general neglect.


I can help you with that, sell it to a team running in the 24 hours of lemons
 
2014-05-13 08:08:02 PM
At least they're making an effort to recall their vehicles.  Still farking sad.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2014/03/26/automakers-with- th e-lowest-and-highest-recall-rates/
 
2014-05-13 09:02:26 PM

loonatic112358: Not in the midrange market

Sorry, but no. Aston is kind of Aston, kind of Ford. Bentley is really Volkswagen. Jaguar and Land Rover are Tata. Lotus is Proton. MG is SAIC Motor. Mini and Rolls are BMW.  Vauxhall is GM. That only leaves niche brands like Ariel, Caterham, McLaren, Morgan, Noble, and TVR, none of whom has any actual impact on the market.

As I said, Britain doesn't really have an auto industry any more.

dforkus: Lumping any cars into any group like this is just a shortcut, preferred by angry idiots, in lieu of actual analysis.

The modern automobile is an appliance, and the difference between any particular brand of similarly priced vehicle is nothing compared to the difference in a modern vehicle and one made 25 years ago.

Do the scheduled maintenance, change the oil every 10000 miles or so, and you'll likely get tired of it long before it dies.. Like I said, I'm the owner of an early 00s cavalier, arguably one of the worst non-Chrysler vehicles in the last 20 years, and it won't die, despite my halfassed maintenance, and general neglect.


Responding to posts like this without providing any citation (even personal experience) is just a shortcut, preferred by angry idiots, in lieu of actual analysis.

I have had multiple vehicles (only Korean and American ones, though) fail to reach even 120k without major, fundamental problems that would cost more to repair than the car was worth, and I look after my cars religiously, performing oil changes at 3,000 miles or three months (unless the manufacturer recommends less often).

None of my cars has ever been crashed or mistreated (unless you count a sub-1mph rear-on nudge into another vehicle's bumper to be a "crash", I've done that one single time with the very first car I ever owned, and of course I've had the occasional idiot open their door into my car.) Nor have any of my friends' American or Korean vehicles done any better than my own experiences. Mine and my friends' Japanese and European vehicles, though, have all gone well past 120k and had no significant issues.
 
2014-05-13 10:13:13 PM

gweilo8888: loonatic112358: Not in the midrange market

Sorry, but no. Aston is kind of Aston, kind of Ford. Bentley is really Volkswagen. Jaguar and Land Rover are Tata. Lotus is Proton. MG is SAIC Motor. Mini and Rolls are BMW.  Vauxhall is GM. That only leaves niche brands like Ariel, Caterham, McLaren, Morgan, Noble, and TVR, none of whom has any actual impact on the market.

As I said, Britain doesn't really have an auto industry any more.

dforkus: Lumping any cars into any group like this is just a shortcut, preferred by angry idiots, in lieu of actual analysis.

The modern automobile is an appliance, and the difference between any particular brand of similarly priced vehicle is nothing compared to the difference in a modern vehicle and one made 25 years ago.

Do the scheduled maintenance, change the oil every 10000 miles or so, and you'll likely get tired of it long before it dies.. Like I said, I'm the owner of an early 00s cavalier, arguably one of the worst non-Chrysler vehicles in the last 20 years, and it won't die, despite my halfassed maintenance, and general neglect.

Responding to posts like this without providing any citation (even personal experience) is just a shortcut, preferred by angry idiots, in lieu of actual analysis.

I have had multiple vehicles (only Korean and American ones, though) fail to reach even 120k without major, fundamental problems that would cost more to repair than the car was worth, and I look after my cars religiously, performing oil changes at 3,000 miles or three months (unless the manufacturer recommends less often).

None of my cars has ever been crashed or mistreated (unless you count a sub-1mph rear-on nudge into another vehicle's bumper to be a "crash", I've done that one single time with the very first car I ever owned, and of course I've had the occasional idiot open their door into my car.) Nor have any of my friends' American or Korean vehicles done any better than my own experiences. Mine and my friends' Japanese and Europ ...




Well I guess that settles that then, could I offer that my wife had an 04 jetty that lived and died within the ongoing lifespan of my cavalier....

This is what this boils down to, people claiming that their particular anecdote represents reality, and anyone else's does not..

It's too bad that folks haven't been keeping statistics about the average life of vehicles, and how the initial and long term quality of cars, regardless of brand has risen dramatically, regardless of brand, over the last thirty years.. It's too bad that this data, as opposed to our anecdotes, aren't available via a google search...

//if you are change your oil more than once every 6k you are a sucker
 
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