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(MSN)   Queensrÿche was right. And, yes, here comes the science   (news.msn.com ) divider line 41
    More: Spiffy, lucid dreams, Nature Neuroscience, REM sleep, electrical stimulations  
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4434 clicks; posted to Geek » on 11 May 2014 at 11:21 PM (1 year ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-11 08:36:06 PM  
They were right about a lot of things:

img.fark.net
 
2014-05-11 08:58:07 PM  
img.fark.net
Howard Johnson Is Right!
 
2014-05-11 09:00:03 PM  

Frederick: They were right about a lot of things:

[img.fark.net image 225x225]


So many things.
 
2014-05-11 09:25:18 PM  
I already have lucid dreams. No shocking necessary!
 
2014-05-11 09:55:05 PM  
You can achieve high lucidity dreaming without impersonating Jack Nicholson. If you are going to attach electrodes to my body, it better involve uncontrollable orgasms.
 
2014-05-11 11:50:51 PM  
All I want is some silent lucidity...
 
2014-05-12 12:04:13 AM  

Frederick: They were right about a lot of things:


Fantastic album. Great concert, too.
 
2014-05-12 12:29:28 AM  

Your_Huckleberry: Frederick: They were right about a lot of things:

Fantastic album. Great concert, too.


I listened to this again pretty recently and for the first time in over a decade.
Holy shiat, does this album hold up.  I'd almost say it felt even more timely than when it was first released.
 
2014-05-12 12:37:31 AM  
37.media.tumblr.com

And then, the ads come...
 
2014-05-12 12:42:24 AM  
First: Electroencephalograms showed that those dreams were accompanied by telltale electrical activity called gamma waves.
Those brain-waves are related to executive functions such as higher-order thinking, as well as awareness of one's mental state. But they are almost unheard of in REM sleep.


For general purposes, isn't regular REM sleep necessary to maintain sanity? And isn't reduced gamma waves one of the important parts?

I'll confess my near-total ignorance of the science of sleep, but I can attest to what happens to my brain when whatever's supposed to happen when I'm asleep doesn't happen. And I've had a few more-lucid dreams that I remember later, but I usually wake up feeling better when I don't remember my dreams, whatever their content and however lucid they were. It may mean nothing, or it might be that for me REM works better when I'm "gone" while dreaming.

And frankly the idea of somebody controlling my dreams scares the piss out of me: it's bad enough when that's a delusion.

Of course it's silly to generalize from the experience of a harmless eccentric who needs medication to stay relatively sane and SSI to pay the rent, but I prophecy against technologies that involve other people controlling your mind, especially when you're asleep and vulnerable. It might start out as "therapy," but I would not be surprised if the Government's "intelligence" and "social control" apparatuses happen to be behind this research or are at least helping it along to use it for their purposes.

Second, also FTFA: But if the results hold up, the technique might help people suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, who often have terrifying dreams in which they re-play the traumatic experience. If they can dream lucidly, they might be able to bring about a different outcome, such as turning down a different street than the one with the roadside bomb or ducking into a restaurant before the rapist attacks them.

One point you should keep in mind: if it's possible to do that it's also possible to do the reverse, to scare you out of your wits; it would also be possible to "bring about a different outcome," say to maneuver your mind down another path where your "traumatic experience" doesn't lead you to oppose "involuntary therapeutic environments" for security risks, for example.

What if The Powers That Be decided that "lucid dreaming" under their control was necessary to restore you to "normal" functioning in their regime? Think Soviet psychiatry with electrodes, "rewiring" your brain, etc. What's really scary is that this is physically painless and isn't likely to have gross visible effects (as ECT and lobotomy do), so it's easier to present it as a kind & gentle "healing technique."

And a big part of that is getting people to volunteer for it (and insurance to pay for it) so it gets socially acceptable: "when my father died I had problems that lead me to seek this out and the results were great, so of course I support making it available to people who because of some traumatic experience think the CIA is bent on controlling people's minds."

Imagine it even becomes possible to intervene in people's dreams without wires, say by beaming "mind control" rays at them.

They should leave people's dreams alone. Just because they want to learn how to do something and can figure out ways to accomplish it doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing.

Hint: 30 years ago it was inconceivable that the NSA could collect all that "metadata" on everybody's electronic communications or bug the cell phone of the German Chancellor. It's happened many times that today's "paranoid delusion" becomes tomorrow's everyday reality.

Of course if you believe that the FBI or CIA (or whatever) should control people's brains directly...
 
2014-05-12 12:46:33 AM  

The One True TheDavid: Of course if you believe that the FBI or CIA (or whatever) should control people's brains directly...


So in short...IBM, CBS, RCA, the CIA, the FBI, the NBA, A&P, NBC, ABC, R. Crumb, and CPO Sharky. Ya see? They're all the same. And what do I think? I think if life gives you lemons, you make lemonade. Good night, and may God bless!
 
2014-05-12 01:05:25 AM  

pedobearapproved: The One True TheDavid: Of course if you believe that the FBI or CIA (or whatever) should control people's brains directly...

So in short...IBM, CBS, RCA, the CIA, the FBI, the NBA, A&P, NBC, ABC, R. Crumb, and CPO Sharky. Ya see? They're all the same.


Nope. Sorry. It's just that I'm not up on which governmental agency seeks to control "reality" these days.

Ever heard of MK-ULTRA?


And what do I think? I think if life gives you lemons, you make lemonade. Good night, and may God bless!

Um, I'm being trolled again, right?

Too bad I haven't had a drop of ethanol since waking up around 10am Sunday morning.

By the way, of course "they" would have shills and scoffers on discussion forums virtual twirling their fingers around their temples and making light of this concern.
 
2014-05-12 01:18:50 AM  
... Someone alert George Orr.
 
2014-05-12 01:22:29 AM  
A lotta hand wringing here, but those of us that have regular lucid dreams know that they're used primarily for banging that hot barista at the corner Starbucks.

...Or maybe that's just me.  But I don't think so.
 
2014-05-12 01:24:03 AM  

Representative of the unwashed masses: All I want is some silent lucidity...


To this day I find it hilarious that they managed to pull off the "typical hard rock ballad" with a song about lucid dreaming.
 
2014-05-12 01:34:53 AM  
The warning they gave us was surely our last.
 
2014-05-12 01:39:56 AM  
There's a thought that fills your mind
A vision of time
When knowledge was confined
And then we wonder how machines
Can steal each other's dreams
From points that are unseen...It's real

Tad_Waxpole: Your_Huckleberry: Frederick: They were right about a lot of things:

Fantastic album. Great concert, too.

I listened to this again pretty recently and for the first time in over a decade.
Holy shiat, does this album hold up.  I'd almost say it felt even more timely than when it was first released.


I go back and forth between that and Rage For Order being my favorite album.
 
2014-05-12 01:55:13 AM  

Tad_Waxpole: Your_Huckleberry: Frederick: They were right about a lot of things:

Fantastic album. Great concert, too.

I listened to this again pretty recently and for the first time in over a decade.
Holy shiat, does this album hold up.   I'd almost say it felt even more timely than when it was first released.


It's sad really.
The issues sung about in that album:  income inequality, abuses of power and wealth, corruption -obvious in 1988 are only worse now.  Not only did we fail to improve, we've allowed it to get worse.

"...I remember now."

/there will be no revolution
 
2014-05-12 02:38:05 AM  

Victoly: The warning they gave us was surely our last.


But only time will tell the answer you've been blinded from today.
 
2014-05-12 04:11:38 AM  
So I can only dream in infrared?
 
2014-05-12 05:59:32 AM  

The One True TheDavid: First: Electroencephalograms showed that those dreams were accompanied by telltale electrical activity called gamma waves.
Those brain-waves are related to executive functions such as higher-order thinking, as well as awareness of one's mental state. But they are almost unheard of in REM sleep.

For general purposes, isn't regular REM sleep necessary to maintain sanity? And isn't reduced gamma waves one of the important parts?

I'll confess my near-total ignorance of the science of sleep, but I can attest to what happens to my brain when whatever's supposed to happen when I'm asleep doesn't happen. And I've had a few more-lucid dreams that I remember later, but I usually wake up feeling better when I don't remember my dreams, whatever their content and however lucid they were. It may mean nothing, or it might be that for me REM works better when I'm "gone" while dreaming.

And frankly the idea of somebody controlling my dreams scares the piss out of me: it's bad enough when that's a delusion.

Of course it's silly to generalize from the experience of a harmless eccentric who needs medication to stay relatively sane and SSI to pay the rent, but I prophecy against technologies that involve other people controlling your mind, especially when you're asleep and vulnerable. It might start out as "therapy," but I would not be surprised if the Government's "intelligence" and "social control" apparatuses happen to be behind this research or are at least helping it along to use it for their purposes.

Second, also FTFA: But if the results hold up, the technique might help people suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, who often have terrifying dreams in which they re-play the traumatic experience. If they can dream lucidly, they might be able to bring about a different outcome, such as turning down a different street than the one with the roadside bomb or ducking into a restaurant before the rapist attacks them.

One point you should keep in mind: if it's possible to do that it's also possible to do the reverse, to scare you out of your wits; it would also be possible to "bring about a different outcome," say to maneuver your mind down another path where your "traumatic experience" doesn't lead you to oppose "involuntary therapeutic environments" for security risks, for example.

What if The Powers That Be decided that "lucid dreaming" under their control was necessary to restore you to "normal" functioning in their regime? Think Soviet psychiatry with electrodes, "rewiring" your brain, etc. What's really scary is that this is physically painless and isn't likely to have gross visible effects (as ECT and lobotomy do), so it's easier to present it as a kind & gentle "healing technique."

And a big part of that is getting people to volunteer for it (and insurance to pay for it) so it gets socially acceptable: "when my father died I had problems that lead me to seek this out and the results were great, so of course I support making it available to people who because of some traumatic experience think the CIA is bent on controlling people's minds."

Imagine it even becomes possible to intervene in people's dreams without wires, say by beaming "mind control" rays at them.

They should leave people's dreams alone. Just because they want to learn how to do something and can figure out ways to accomplish it doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing.

Hint: 30 years ago it was inconceivable that the NSA could collect all that "metadata" on everybody's electronic communications or bug the cell phone of the German Chancellor. It's happened many times that today's "paranoid delusion" becomes tomorrow's everyday reality.

Of course if you believe that the FBI or CIA (or whatever) should control people's brains directly...


You're compleyely misunderstanding tfa. The people inttoducing the electrical current to the patient to simulate the brain gamma waves have absutely no i fluence over the dream beyond making it a lucid one. The dreamer is the one who controls the dream. In order to manipulatte a dream in rwal-time, as you are suggesting would probably require the translating of the braineaves and rem sleep patternsb(or something) to show a live image of the dream. Then have some means of directing the course of the dream from the outside. It's the difference between plugging in a PC to a power outlet so it can switch on and actively changing the operation of the pc via peripheral imput.
 
2014-05-12 06:01:48 AM  
Sorry for crap typing. Farking via mobile with big fingers is no easy feat.
 
2014-05-12 07:59:38 AM  

The One True TheDavid: For general purposes, isn't regular REM sleep necessary to maintain sanity? And isn't reduced gamma waves one of the important parts?


Yes, because basically dreaming is like a CHKDSK on the day's memories.  Your brain takes certain troubling visual images from the day and wraps a fictional environment around them. It's tried to sort/file these images and fail, so it creates a context for them artificially.  If you don't get regular REM sleep, eventually your brain will start wrapping fictional environments around your live visual inputs, which is being psychotic.  Too long without any sleep and your hypothalamus loses control of your body temperature for some damn reason and you die.

I bought a lucid dreaming 'kit' in my youth and it was very informative.  One of the early things it had you do was to keep a notebook with attached pen in bed.  When you woke up from a dream, you were to write the dream down in as vivid of detail as you could recall.  This was important because dreams normally go to short-term memory but elevated serotonin prevents them from being transcribed to long term memory.  The thing that amazed me about dreams was how incredibly realistic they were - how detailed.  I had dreams about high school where I described the exact color of paint on the cinderblock walls, and the texture as I ran my hand over them.  After a few weeks of that, I basically disregarded anyone's claims about religious 'visions' - your brain creates that sort of thing every night.  All that's missing is your awareness that you're dreaming.  I could always go through the description of the dream and find something that I'd seen IRL that day, which was usually a key component of the dream.

The other main part of the kit was a set of expensive eyeshades that had sensors to detect rapid eye movement.  At that point, they'd turn on a red LED in the eyeshades, and you were supposed to recognize a red light in your dreams as the 'dreamsign'.  Didn't work for me because my eyes are so sensitive that the LED always woke me up.  But the other main 'dreamsign' that works without any fancy eyeshades is that mechanical objects don't work like they're supposed to in dreams.  Doorknobs don't open.  Cars don't start.  Elevator buttons don't work.  If you can recognize something like this in a dream, you can influence it without waking up.  I wouldn't say it's the greatest thing in the world, but it's neat.
 
2014-05-12 08:06:13 AM  

Duck_of_Doom: I go back and forth between that and Rage For Order being my favorite album.


They're both fantastic.  I used Operation:Mindcrime as my workout album for years and years so I've listened to it perhaps a thousand times.  My judge of whether I was in good shape that day was whether I could keep up with the varying tempo throughout.  I missed their original runthrough in concert but thankfully 'dinosaur rock' got them to do the full show at House of Blues years ago before Geoff started to lose his high end.
 
2014-05-12 08:24:23 AM  

syrynxx: Doorknobs don't open. Cars don't start. Elevator buttons don't work.


You try to run away but your legs don't move.
 
2014-05-12 08:43:14 AM  

optikeye: Howard Johnson Is Right!


Optikeye Johnson is right about Howard Johnson being right!
 
2014-05-12 09:02:08 AM  
Well, I'm gonna take Maiden's word on things and run for the hills.
 
2014-05-12 09:18:45 AM  

Frederick: It's sad really.
The issues sung about in that album:  income inequality, abuses of power and wealth, corruption -obvious in 1988 are only worse now.  Not only did we fail to improve, we've allowed it to get worse.


We didn't notice.  We just had to make it.  Head down, nose to the grindstone.
 
2014-05-12 10:18:37 AM  

syrynxx: The One True TheDavid: For general purposes, isn't regular REM sleep necessary to maintain sanity? And isn't reduced gamma waves one of the important parts?

Yes, because basically dreaming is like a CHKDSK on the day's memories. Your brain takes certain troubling visual images from the day and wraps a fictional environment around them. It's tried to sort/file these images and fail, so it creates a context for them artificially. If you don't get regular REM sleep, eventually your brain will start wrapping fictional environments around your live visual inputs, which is being psychotic. Too long without any sleep and your hypothalamus loses control of your body temperature for some damn reason and you die.


Not just that, but I seem to recall an article about significantly higher long term psychological issues among lucid dreamers.  Some get so used to it they can't turn it off, which means the subconscious isn't getting enough of a chance to deal with things--or in the metaphor, purge the recycle bin.  So while they needed to be coping with ordinary stresses, they were banging that hot barista at the corner Starbucks.  It added up to mental illness.
 
2014-05-12 10:35:30 AM  

palelizard: So while they needed to be coping with ordinary stresses, they were banging that hot barista at the corner Starbucks. It added up to mental illness.


To be fair, that could be the outcome in the waking world as well.
 
2014-05-12 10:41:52 AM  
www.progarchives.com

This is a great album too.
 
2014-05-12 11:02:27 AM  
Mindcrime was so far ahead of its time. I don't know if they coined it, but it was the first time I heard a reference to The One Percent - back in the 80s.

/didn't care for the official cause of Mary's death
 
2014-05-12 12:05:16 PM  

madgonad: Mindcrime was so far ahead of its time. I don't know if they coined it, but it was the first time I heard a reference to The One Percent - back in the 80s.

/didn't care for the official cause of Mary's death


Easily one of my top-5 albums.  Without googling I can't think of a reference to the 1% in Mindcrime.  Where is it?

//In HS, whenever someone would pull up in a car and roll-down the window they would do the short dialogue about killing Mary.

///Get the priest as well.
 
2014-05-12 12:59:48 PM  

mjbok: madgonad: Mindcrime was so far ahead of its time. I don't know if they coined it, but it was the first time I heard a reference to The One Percent - back in the 80s.

/didn't care for the official cause of Mary's death

Easily one of my top-5 albums.  Without googling I can't think of a reference to the 1% in Mindcrime.  Where is it?


From "Spreading the Disease"

Politicians say no to drugs
While we pay for wars in South America
Fighting fire with empty words
While the banks get fat

And the poor stay poor
And the rich get rich
And the cops get paid to look away
As the one percent rules America
 
2014-05-12 01:08:48 PM  
...I remember now....

Always list for the: "Dr. Blair & Dr J Hamilton" page in movies with a hospital scene.
 
2014-05-12 01:27:31 PM  

mjbok: //In HS, whenever someone would pull up in a car and roll-down the window they would do the short dialogue about killing Mary.


Nice.
 
2014-05-12 01:47:34 PM  

The One True TheDavid: First: Electroencephalograms showed that those dreams were accompanied by telltale electrical activity called gamma waves.
Those brain-waves are related to executive functions such as higher-order thinking, as well as awareness of one's mental state. But they are almost unheard of in REM sleep.

For general purposes, isn't regular REM sleep necessary to maintain sanity? And isn't reduced gamma waves one of the important parts?

I'll confess my near-total ignorance of the science of sleep, but I can attest to what happens to my brain when whatever's supposed to happen when I'm asleep doesn't happen. And I've had a few more-lucid dreams that I remember later, but I usually wake up feeling better when I don't remember my dreams, whatever their content and however lucid they were. It may mean nothing, or it might be that for me REM works better when I'm "gone" while dreaming.

And frankly the idea of somebody controlling my dreams scares the piss out of me: it's bad enough when that's a delusion.

Of course it's silly to generalize from the experience of a harmless eccentric who needs medication to stay relatively sane and SSI to pay the rent, but I prophecy against technologies that involve other people controlling your mind, especially when you're asleep and vulnerable. It might start out as "therapy," but I would not be surprised if the Government's "intelligence" and "social control" apparatuses happen to be behind this research or are at least helping it along to use it for their purposes.

Second, also FTFA: But if the results hold up, the technique might help people suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, who often have terrifying dreams in which they re-play the traumatic experience. If they can dream lucidly, they might be able to bring about a different outcome, such as turning down a different street than the one with the roadside bomb or ducking into a restaurant before the rapist attacks them.

One point you should keep in mind: if it's possible to do that it's also possible to do the reverse, to scare you out of your wits; it would also be possible to "bring about a different outcome," say to maneuver your mind down another path where your "traumatic experience" doesn't lead you to oppose "involuntary therapeutic environments" for security risks, for example.

What if The Powers That Be decided that "lucid dreaming" under their control was necessary to restore you to "normal" functioning in their regime? Think Soviet psychiatry with electrodes, "rewiring" your brain, etc. What's really scary is that this is physically painless and isn't likely to have gross visible effects (as ECT and lobotomy do), so it's easier to present it as a kind & gentle "healing technique."

And a big part of that is getting people to volunteer for it (and insurance to pay for it) so it gets socially acceptable: "when my father died I had problems that lead me to seek this out and the results were great, so of course I support making it available to people who because of some traumatic experience think the CIA is bent on controlling people's minds."

Imagine it even becomes possible to intervene in people's dreams without wires, say by beaming "mind control" rays at them.

They should leave people's dreams alone. Just because they want to learn how to do something and can figure out ways to accomplish it doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing.

Hint: 30 years ago it was inconceivable that the NSA could collect all that "metadata" on everybody's electronic communications or bug the cell phone of the German Chancellor. It's happened many times that today's "paranoid delusion" becomes tomorrow's everyday reality.

Of course if you believe that the FBI or CIA (or whatever) should control people's brains directly...


If we're gonna upload our brains into computers we need to know this stuff.

Your fears will not stop us from having our eternally preserved consciousnesses sent out to directly explore the universe.
 
2014-05-12 03:45:43 PM  

Bob the Internet Barbarian: [www.progarchives.com image 300x300]

This is a great album too.


I KNEW I should have checked Fark last night, I will remember this...

/friend played RFO for me 26 years ago, I was hooked
 
2014-05-12 04:38:43 PM  

Odd Bird: Bob the Internet Barbarian: [www.progarchives.com image 300x300]

This is a great album too.

I KNEW I should have checked Fark last night, I will remember this...

/friend played RFO for me 26 years ago, I was hooked


what you did there, I see it (or maybe not)
 
2014-05-12 04:44:06 PM  

GruntledWorker: Odd Bird: Bob the Internet Barbarian: [www.progarchives.com image 300x300]

This is a great album too.

I KNEW I should have checked Fark last night, I will remember this...

/friend played RFO for me 26 years ago, I was hooked

what you did there, I see it (or maybe not)


Thus endeth the thread?

/thanks for seeing, I was feeling disconnected.
 
2014-05-12 05:05:28 PM  
Ahhh, Lucid dreaming. You can do literally anything and control the outcome of your dreams. Having a nightmare? Take control and become a freakin' god in the dream world. Somebody you know dies? Bring them back. Find yourself naked in front of an audience? Presto, the audience becomes terrified of the strange fake skin suits they are wearing. Facing a monster that wants to kill you? That monster is about to have a VERY bad day. Lucid dreaming is a blast!
 
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