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(Slate)   The two longest-lasting computer programs are mortal enemies. NERD FIGHT   (slate.com) divider line 159
    More: Interesting, copy editors, Richard Stallman, computer programs, Emacs, word processing, arrow keys, cheat sheet, Microsoft Word  
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7902 clicks; posted to Geek » on 11 May 2014 at 1:16 PM (18 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-05-11 09:01:20 AM
vim is an obnoxious abomination that turns editing from editing into what I've heard described as "word salad" (a sea of colorful little shapes).

emacs can be that way too. Using emacs more often, at least I have learned the settings to turn it off and keep it off. Mostly. I still wish painful death on anybody who turns on "electric" keys by default in emacs distributions.

Emacs got its start all the way across the country at MIT, a project by Guy Steele and Richard Stallman, but it only gained prominence when the equally legendary Stallman developed a much more powerful variant, GNU Emacs, in the mid-1980s as part of the open-source software movement that Stallman spearheaded.

I remember when we switched from CCA emacs to GNU emacs. Fortunately, I only used emacs for plain editing and the switch was not jarring. Unfortunately, the new GNU emacs did not ask to save the scratch buffer when you quit. I lost a paper that way.
 
2014-05-11 09:11:19 AM
...and on the other hand, emacs is an abomination that requires a third hand to make some of the keystrokes and is practically an operating system. I just want to edit a file, not read my mail, browse the web, and fire up 15 shells. X already has a crappy framework for those things. I don't need another crappy interface.

/popcorn anyone?
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-05-11 09:17:04 AM
At least after decades of practice I have remembered the keystrokes for most emacs stuff. When I see the row of icons on a Mac menu I say to myself "my brain is already full of emacs shortcuts, I am not going to try to learn what slanty line arrow clover dot means and it would probably hurt if I tried it." Which is one reason I tend to pull the plug to logout, because I can't remember the key chord to summon the kill menu to terminate programs that insist on negotiating with me to let me logout. There's a menu to summon it, but that's more work than unplug-plug.
 
2014-05-11 09:20:19 AM
For work VI is really fast and (now that I am familiar with it) easy to use.

Anything is better when you're not talking about work.
 
2014-05-11 09:29:02 AM
So we put one in the  ISD Executor and the other in the  USS Enterpriseand see which one works better
 
2014-05-11 09:33:47 AM
Emacs is fine for new users, VI certainly is not and has a pretty steep learning curve. But once you learn the VI commands it kicks Emac's ass.
 
2014-05-11 10:08:36 AM
vi
 
2014-05-11 10:24:18 AM
i just use the edit feature in DOS
 
2014-05-11 10:25:25 AM
Haven't used either in ages....

I think I might just install emacs and give it a shot.  Used it for years when I was doing OS development in Phoenix for Honeywell/Bull.

Then used vi for years doing DB development at Ingres/ASK/CA.  Being exposed to emacs earlier (and using it more), I never fell in love with vi, but I understand its appeal.
 
2014-05-11 10:57:57 AM
Its been years since I touched one, but I'd side with vi
 
2014-05-11 10:59:46 AM
Which one is Notepad.exe?
 
2014-05-11 11:09:59 AM
Text editors? Just use Word.

Jesus, you nerds gotta make everything so f*cking complicated...
 
2014-05-11 11:18:42 AM

PainInTheASP: Which one is Notepad.exe?


I am a vi expert, I get so very frustrated when I use notepad.

How can one live with an editor without a way to switch fs for vs in in all lines ending with s?
 
2014-05-11 11:22:22 AM

EvilEgg: PainInTheASP: Which one is Notepad.exe?

I am a vi expert, I get so very frustrated when I use notepad.

How can one live with an editor without a way to switch fs for vs in in all lines ending with s?


"Fark it."
 
2014-05-11 11:28:46 AM
a TRUE computer geek uses switches for binary input
 
2014-05-11 11:29:49 AM
I never learned to use vi much beyond basic stuff. I know how to quit the thing and save a file and sometimes I can insert text.

I guess maybe I should learn it, might be useful at some point.
 
2014-05-11 11:32:17 AM

make me some tea: I never learned to use vi much beyond basic stuff. I know how to quit the thing and save a file and sometimes I can insert text.

I guess maybe I should learn it, might be useful at some point.


Once you learn regular expressions, everything else is easy.
 
2014-05-11 11:32:52 AM

nekom: a TRUE computer geek uses switches for binary input


Switches? Luxury. I once hand-programmed an EPROM using jumper wires on a solderless breadboard.

And this whole debate is silly because ed is the standard text editor.
 
2014-05-11 11:50:18 AM

Wanebo: Emacs is fine for new users, VI certainly is not and has a pretty steep learning curve. But once you learn the VI commands it kicks Emac's ass.


I have a story that confirms the hell out of that statement. For years and years, starting on a VAX 9000 decades ago, I used EMACS. Our Comp Sci professor built EMACS on VMS, because EVERYTHING on a VAX 9000 had to be tailor built for your system anyway.

So, since he was my buddy, and I was learning programming from him, I used EMACS, because he was a Nazi. A Nazi flag on the wall "Heil Hitler" Nazi. It was EMACS buddy, or well I don't know, but I suspect he'd have put Zyclon B in my shower. So I got really good with EMACS. Every time I touched vi or vim I'd want to cry. It made no sense to me.

This year, however, my good buddy who's been a sys admin forever, convinced me to at least try vim. In one month, to show him up, I've learned more about vim than he does. I've made him jealous. I've also realized something: vim is goddamn amazing. It's just freaking amazing. I got tired after about 5 minutes of reaching up to hit ESC forever, so I just tried the standard ctrl sequence for escape. BAM, worked. That saved me two inches of reaching, and stole my heart. It's designed to work like you should be in a terminal anyway. I should have used vim when banging away for hours MUD coding on those VT100 terminals, I would have been much happier.

I can now code about 50 times faster in vim than EMACS. I'm a turncoat in the editor war. Bram owns my soul now. I even have it as my default editor when I use Visual Studio for C# development.
 
2014-05-11 11:50:48 AM

Ivo Shandor: nekom: a TRUE computer geek uses switches for binary input

Switches? Luxury. I once hand-programmed an EPROM using jumper wires on a solderless breadboard.

And this whole debate is silly because ed is the standard text editor.


Oh, well I do know enough regex to get myself in trouble, anyway.
 
2014-05-11 12:22:31 PM

Wanebo: Emacs is fine for new users, VI certainly is not and has a pretty steep learning curve. But once you learn the VI commands it kicks Emac's ass.


You don't know what you are talking about. Are you are saying that VI is harder to learn than Emacs but if you just learn it -it's better? Because, you are wrong on both counts.

Question: is LISP harder to learn than the page or two of VI commands and what can you do with it?

www.lisperati.com
 
2014-05-11 12:27:30 PM

Wanebo: VI certainly is not and has a pretty steep learning curve.


Some people cheat.
i.imgur.com
 
2014-05-11 01:26:06 PM
Meh.  I still use vi, but I really don't code anymore.  I go to meetings and argue about how things are supposed to work.  All the coding gets done in China now.
 
2014-05-11 01:27:50 PM
I use both.

Emacs has org-mode which is all kinds of awesome and Emacs Lisp is preferable to vimscript for building one's own extensions  (even though it's not a great Lisp by today's standards).

But vim has some addons to integrate with tmux better and navigation from normal mode can be quite powerful.
 
2014-05-11 01:29:05 PM
N++ FTW.

/Emacs
 
2014-05-11 01:35:44 PM
gvim is ruining me for vi classic

/plus I need to turn on visual bell, so my reflexive hitting of ESC doesn't beep my officemates too much
 
2014-05-11 01:40:27 PM
31.media.tumblr.com

Oldest program still in use on my computer. I used to use it to write code for the Atari 2600.
 
2014-05-11 01:45:59 PM

Doktor_Zhivago: i just use the edit feature in DOS


That's how I learned qBasic, when I got to linux I found pico and since then its been that or nano and only falling to vi if neither are already available.  In windows my text editing is now done with notepad++, but that's mostly to edit config files not write new code.
 
2014-05-11 01:46:12 PM

Doktor_Zhivago: i just use the edit feature in DOS


nah, edlin in the way to go for any serious work.
 
2014-05-11 01:46:39 PM
vi is the only thing I can count on being there when I'm on various bits of network equipment all around the world.
 
2014-05-11 01:48:34 PM
What a software editor may look like.
 
2014-05-11 01:48:35 PM
Once you turn on the visual bell, so your co-workers don't throw things at you, vi is wonderful.
If you had a floor keyboard to handle meta-keys, emacs would make sense.
 
2014-05-11 01:49:47 PM
And it's gone... sonofa...

i.imgur.com
 
2014-05-11 01:51:40 PM
The two longest-lasting computer programs

Pffft. Back in the 70s, when I was working on a computer program that interacted with the computer in a P3C Orion anti-submarine aircraft, we were debugging a problem in the interaction and thinking it was their system. One of the programmers of the thing said, only half in jest, "That code's older than you are." Last I knew, that code, or at least part of it, is still in use. One thing I've learned about military software is that it seems to have close to eternal life.

By the way, it WAS their system. Our new spiffy 8080-based computer was able to generate so much traffic to the thing that it broke their code.
 
2014-05-11 02:04:09 PM
Preview is your friend.
 
2014-05-11 02:05:20 PM
m.exe (and mep.exe in OS/2)

I was one of the "elite"... Heh. (emacs in a pinch)

(It came with the very early versions of MS C/C++)
 
2014-05-11 02:05:31 PM
Saying that you use VI is like bragging about your penis length -- nobody cares. and you sound desperate. As for Emacs, well there's a Lisp interpreter built in so that's punishment enough.
 
2014-05-11 02:08:44 PM
If you installed Pine, the Pico editor came bundled with it.  Handy for people who don't want something as fancy as Vi or Emacs.

/now uses Nano, an improved Pico clone
//Notepad++ on the Windows desktop
///SciTE on the KDE desktop
 
2014-05-11 02:11:26 PM
Back when I worked on *nix machines I used to do the whole vi thing, but these days I just use Visual Studio (for C#/C++), a proprietary Visual Studio-like program created by my company (for M), or Atmel Studio (for Arduino).  General text editing is Notepad++.
 
2014-05-11 02:13:34 PM
Working on network appliances forced me to learn vi. They tend to ship with stripped down, bastardized versions of Redhat and only include vi. If you try to upload another package you can lose vendor support.
 
2014-05-11 02:14:10 PM

Sum Dum Gai: Visual Studio-like program created by my company (for M)


Really? I thought I was like the only guy in the world who used it (decades ago). Huh. Neat!
 
2014-05-11 02:18:15 PM

Destructor: Really? I thought I was like the only guy in the world who used it (decades ago). Huh. Neat!


M is a very big language in the healthcare industry; many of the major players use it.  I believe also the banking industry, and I know the European space industry as well.
 
2014-05-11 02:18:24 PM

Wanebo: Emacs is fine for new users, VI certainly is not and has a pretty steep learning curve. But once you learn the VI commands it kicks Emac's ass.




Steep learning curve is better, right?

Less time, more learning?
 
2014-05-11 02:20:13 PM
If I log into a any unix or linux box its a given that vi is there.  Not so with emacs.

/reason number 32425 why emacs blows
 
2014-05-11 02:22:05 PM
img.fark.net

I can use vi and emacs.
But it is 2014 not 1985.
 
2014-05-11 02:23:31 PM

Destructor: m.exe (and mep.exe in OS/2)

I was one of the "elite"... Heh. (emacs in a pinch)

(It came with the very early versions of MS C/C++)


xedit (or kedit on DOS and OS/2)
 
2014-05-11 02:24:02 PM
I tried out emacs once I got on a system with enough horsepower to run it. I quickly realized that the mod1-mod2-keystroke commands would cripple me pretty quickly -- I was already fighting various forms of RSI just from using crummy keyboards at crummy tables while sitting on crummy chairs. As an HCI student, I knew that Modes Are Bad, but I also knew that chronic pain was worse, so I stuck with vi.

I did use WordStar for a while on a TRS-80 with the CP/M mod installed. That was even worse than vi for hand/wrist/arm strain, because the TRS-80 didn't have a control key; CP/M repurposed the uparrow key, which was positioned... suboptimally for use as a modifier key (just to the left of Q). My solution? I bought a couple of cheap foot switches from Radio Shack and wired them up parallel to the up-arrow and shift keys. Stomp-K-D didn't hurt my wrists a bit.

The good old days weren't really always that good, but they did have their moments.
 
2014-05-11 02:24:23 PM

Begoggle: [img.fark.net image 275x183]

I can use vi and emacs.
But it is 2014 not 1985.


Don't manage linux or unix servers, eh?
 
2014-05-11 02:24:46 PM

Sum Dum Gai: Destructor: Really? I thought I was like the only guy in the world who used it (decades ago). Huh. Neat!

M is a very big language in the healthcare industry; many of the major players use it.  I believe also the banking industry, and I know the European space industry as well.


No, whoops, I was referring to the Microsoft editor, "m", not a language. The only thing I could compare it to is something similar to the integrated developer environment of Visual Studio today. I have not seen it or used it in a very, very long time. When I first learned MS C/C++ (happy days were those), m was my editor of choice (not knowing any better) mostly because it shipped with the development libraries.
 
2014-05-11 02:27:25 PM
Real programmers use Butterflies
 
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