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(The Atlantic)   There is nothing "liberal" about majoring in Philosophy. Unless you mean the term to describe the stretches of unemployment for said degree holder   (theatlantic.com) divider line 97
    More: Obvious, philosophy, liberal education, The Big Book of, Peter Thiel, unemployment, online courses, Benjamin Franklin  
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3249 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 May 2014 at 6:20 AM (15 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-11 01:18:29 AM
"Giving people access to a liberal education is really essential for citizenship, and that should start before college. Learning critical thinking so people can't just pull the wool over your eyes should be part of everyone's education."

I agree, but I take great issue with this notion that seems to permeate academia, particularly at the university level, and particularly among the liberal arts types, that a "Liberal Arts Education" in German Literature or Philosophy or History or whatever is the only way to teach people critical thinking.  That us "technical" people are just button-pushing rubes with small minds:

We don't want specialists with just technical training. When you have a liberal education, you're not just a technician. You're able to move among fields.

30-40 years ago when these administrators and professors were going to school, a four-year degree, any four-year degree, could get you an entry-level job anywhere.  Then these same boomers tell us that not only should everyone have the opportunity to go to school (which you used to be able to do working and saving with summer jobs and maybe taking something part-time during the school year), but that everyone should go to college, because feelings.  And now a four-year degree is essentially meaningless.

And what's wrong with being "just" a technician?  Without those lowly, unenlightened technicians the Starbucks where these pseudo-intelligentsia sit with their laptops (or work behind the counter) wouldn't have power, running water, or coffee beans.  Our problem as a country is not that we've devalued the liberal arts education, we've devalued every other type of education that isn't a four-year liberal arts education (the vocational, technical type degree programs).  We overvalue these liberal arts educations at the expense of the middle class.  These schools are happy to take students' money and have an incentive to make easy coursework that is more accessible to the masses.  And Wall Street/the government is happy to keep doling out loans with usurious interest rates and lendor-slanted terms.

The people doing the wool-pulling are the ones putting an arm around your shoulder, telling you to go to a four-year school to figure out what you love and to become a critical thinker, and reaching into your back-pocket to get at your wallet.
 
2014-05-11 06:27:37 AM
Liberating... no?
 
2014-05-11 06:33:33 AM
Critical thinking should be taught in school and I don't see it as an arts vs science thing so much as a core class everyone should learn. I suspect it would never happen in the US because religion would (correctly) see it as a threat to their recruitment drives.
 
2014-05-11 06:38:58 AM

drxym: Critical thinking should be taught in school and I don't see it as an arts vs science thing so much as a core class everyone should learn. I suspect it would never happen in the US because religion would (correctly) see it as a threat to their recruitment drives.



Well, if this sort of attempt at partisan division is an example of Critical Thinking©, then it's probably not really that useful anyway.
 
2014-05-11 06:44:14 AM

Fark It: "Giving people access to a liberal education is really essential for citizenship, and that should start before college. Learning critical thinking so people can't just pull the wool over your eyes should be part of everyone's education."

I agree, but I take great issue with this notion that seems to permeate academia, particularly at the university level, and particularly among the liberal arts types, that a "Liberal Arts Education" in German Literature or Philosophy or History or whatever is the only way to teach people critical thinking.  That us "technical" people are just button-pushing rubes with small minds:

We don't want specialists with just technical training. When you have a liberal education, you're not just a technician. You're able to move among fields.

30-40 years ago when these administrators and professors were going to school, a four-year degree, any four-year degree, could get you an entry-level job anywhere.  Then these same boomers tell us that not only should everyone have the opportunity to go to school (which you used to be able to do working and saving with summer jobs and maybe taking something part-time during the school year), but that everyone should go to college, because feelings.  And now a four-year degree is essentially meaningless.

And what's wrong with being "just" a technician?  Without those lowly, unenlightened technicians the Starbucks where these pseudo-intelligentsia sit with their laptops (or work behind the counter) wouldn't have power, running water, or coffee beans.  Our problem as a country is not that we've devalued the liberal arts education, we've devalued every other type of education that isn't a four-year liberal arts education (the vocational, technical type degree programs).  We overvalue these liberal arts educations at the expense of the middle class.  These schools are happy to take students' money and have an incentive to make easy coursework that is more accessible to the masses.  And Wall Street/the gov ...


So, what you're saying is, is that college should be free.

I agree wholeheartedly.
 
2014-05-11 06:46:51 AM
This is how wealthy people protect their advantages: by limiting access to higher education to their own children. This creates what Jefferson called an "unnatural aristocracy," people who have unearned privileges.

He got that right. And please, can we not engage the trole?
 
2014-05-11 06:47:58 AM
If you are a dull, uninspired dimwit before you get a four-year degree, then you will eventually be a dull, uninspired dimwit with a four-year degree.
 
Rat
2014-05-11 06:52:44 AM
I was a philosophy major, in that 30 years ago category.  At the time, I was pursuing a degree that would lead to a doctoral and eventual I'd change the field of biomedical ethics as we know it.

What it really did, was allow me ample time to hone my deer hunting skills while reading in a blind at 4 AM in the Texas hill country.  What it did was give me a greater appreciation for Monty Python, and how it relates to eternal nothingness.

It was a nice four year degree, but bar-tending and waiting tables wasn't my hopes nor my dreams for a career, so I picked up nursing.  I happen to love nursing.

Now days, unfortunately, philosophy in the liberal arts setting is taught by progressives that want, if nothing more, for you to not think for yourself, but to think like them.  The 'critical' thinking has disappeared, and I fear we will have no new JS Bachs, or MC Eschers, or John Cleese's.

© and now Alfred, to the Batcave
 
2014-05-11 06:52:46 AM
Extremely well-employed philosophy major checking in for Fark patrol.

I'll even say philosophy is the most useful class I took in college, taught me how to think, see anything from multiple viewpoints,  also made me a annoying "devils advocate" but works great for problem-solving too.

Your degree gets you the first job, after that you're on your own.

/in IT
 
2014-05-11 07:08:13 AM
Philosophy and political science major here. Currently underpaid attorney. Still, I think majoring in philosophy changed my entire thought process and outlook on life, so I can't say it was worthless... Just not directly useful for employment.
 
2014-05-11 07:08:40 AM
Liberal arts majors have been solving problems like poverty with problem solving skills like let's pay poor people to have lots of children or solving racial discrimination by discriminating on the basis of race which put an empty suit Chicago ward heeler and his shaved big foot wife in the White House. As for blaming the astronomical tuition hikes on rich parents that's like blaming rape victims for the rape. The universities' administration is overwhelmingly made up of liberal arts majors. b-i.forbesimg.com
 
2014-05-11 07:15:50 AM
Well, the world needs figurative ditch diggers as well!


/also, done in one
 
2014-05-11 07:19:01 AM
Let me see if I understand the argument.

1) Get a philosophy degree from an expensive liberal arts school.
2) Philosophy degree means unemployment.
3) This is how wealthy people protect their advantages: by limiting access to higher education to their own children.

That doesn't make sense.

1) Paying jobs don't matter for the wealthy.
2) College is a tax subsidized resort life for 4 years.
3) After graduation with a philosophy degree they collect rents and dividends, just like their wealthy parents.

That's more like it. Oh, and keep demanding more tax cuts offset by the usurious interest on the one trillion dollars (plus) in student debt.
 
2014-05-11 07:19:32 AM

fusillade762: This is how wealthy people protect their advantages: by limiting access to higher education to their own children. This creates what Jefferson called an "unnatural aristocracy," people who have unearned privileges.

He got that right. And please, can we not engage the trole?


No matter how much one admires Jefferson, when he makes this kind of comment, he may have lost sight of the fact that he was able to do the great things he did because there were a lot of people surrounding him who did all the daily, dirty, grinding work of living.  In his case, he had slaves and no matter how conflicted he may have been about that, even if he didn't have slaves, he needed to be surrounded by people who were digging the dirt and hauling the manure and weeding the garden so that he had time to write treatises about gardening.  He wouldn't have had time to write the Declaration of Independence if he was having to make his own breakfast and do his own laundry.

In any advanced society, many kinds of people doing many and varied tasks are required to keep things moving along.  We're always going to need somebody to deal with the garbage, whether by wheelbarrow or Megatrashmaster 3000.  The beauty of the American experiment was that people had the freedom to move between classes.

I don't think college should be free.  What is free has no value, either to the giver or the recipient.  On the other hand, way back when I was in college, the tuition, room and board at the private college I attended was about 1/4 of the national median wage at the time.  By saving money from every job I could find through high school, getting some scholarships, and having 2 or 3 jobs every summer, I was able to graduate debt free.  Today, that same school's tuition, room and board is about 115% of national median wage, and that dramatic rise is not unusual for schools private or public.  It is highly unlikely that any student could pull off what I did, coming from a family of very modest means.

That is how the "aristocracy" of this country protects itself from the invasion of the Great Unwashed.  Whether it is intentional at institutions of higher learning or the unintended consequences of government programs aimed at helping fund higher education, it is the exponential growth of the cost of education that has placed it out of reach.  Even if a student from a lower economic class can get a decent enough education from an inner-city public school to gain admission to university, he will likely be saddled with such debt as to significantly diminish his ability to build real wealth when he graduates.  If he is in the middle 50% of income earners, a significant chunk of his earnings will go to retiring student loan debt.  The top 10% of income earners don't have that problem.  They can afford to pay cash for their kids' education so the kid graduates debt-free.
 
2014-05-11 07:20:05 AM
This is how wealthy people protect their advantages: by limiting access to higher education to their own children.

It's more than just that: It's necessary for the very concept of Democracy to exist.

Democracies are incredibly difficult to establish and maintain. The prime requisite for a stable Democracy seems to be a highly educated and organized indigenous base. Tyrannies depend on poverty and ignorance: They restrict communication and education so they can keep the people separate, ignorant and distant, and hence unable to act or revolt.

The one thing that Democracy absolutely needs to flourish is education. Democracy doesn't automatically bestow freedom, but free people generally want free elections, and they won't demand them unless they are educated and aware. A highly informed and educated citizenry always demands more out of its government and is the best safeguard against tyranny. The people want it only if they have the knowledge and understanding to want it.

See, I think the 2nd Amendment is misattributed. It shouldn't be arms, it should be knowledge and education. What use are guns -- or freedom, or political anything -- when you're too ignorant to use it properly (and you're too clueless to know when it's being taken away)?

So always be wary of anyone trying to take away your access to high education. That's what all totalitarianisms do. Whosoever tries to restrict your access to knowledge and information wants to control you.
 
2014-05-11 07:23:02 AM
This is how wealthy people protect their advantages: by limiting access to higher education to their own children. This creates what Jefferson called an "unnatural aristocracy," people who have unearned privileges.

fusillade762: He got that right. And please, can we not engage the trole?



My suname is Le Trôle.


I suggest you worry a little bit less about about silencing opinions you don't like, and more with applying that razor-sharp Critical Thinking©.


Like, perhaps, not actively acknowledging someones presence if you don't want to hear from them. That thwack you just heard was a forehead slap from fusillade762.
 
2014-05-11 07:31:29 AM
Maybe Drew will hire you to be a moderator.
 
2014-05-11 07:33:41 AM

Mr. Right: No matter how much one admires Jefferson, when he makes this kind of comment, he may have lost sight of the fact that he was able to do the great things he did because there were a lot of people surrounding him who did all the daily, dirty, grinding work of living.  In his case, he had slaves and no matter how conflicted he may have been about that, even if he didn't have slaves, he needed to be surrounded by people who were digging the dirt and hauling the manure and weeding the garden so that he had time to write treatises about gardening.  He wouldn't have had time to write the Declaration of Independence if he was having to make his own breakfast and do his own laundry.


Which demonstrates the sort of critical thinking that shows why Jefferson was a more than bit of an entitled twat. Jefferson reminds me of a rock star who's lamenting in a Rolling Stone article about the soul-killing drudgery of having to live on the road in five-star hotels, for months at a time.
 
2014-05-11 07:34:46 AM

Ishkur: This is how wealthy people protect their advantages: by limiting access to higher education to their own children.

It's more than just that: It's necessary for the very concept of Democracy to exist.

Democracies are incredibly difficult to establish and maintain. The prime requisite for a stable Democracy seems to be a highly educated and organized indigenous base. Tyrannies depend on poverty and ignorance: They restrict communication and education so they can keep the people separate, ignorant and distant, and hence unable to act or revolt.

The one thing that Democracy absolutely needs to flourish is education. Democracy doesn't automatically bestow freedom, but free people generally want free elections, and they won't demand them unless they are educated and aware. A highly informed and educated citizenry always demands more out of its government and is the best safeguard against tyranny. The people want it only if they have the knowledge and understanding to want it.

See, I think the 2nd Amendment is misattributed. It shouldn't be arms, it should be knowledge and education. What use are guns -- or freedom, or political anything -- when you're too ignorant to use it properly (and you're too clueless to know when it's being taken away)?

So always be wary of anyone trying to take away your access to high education. That's what all totalitarianisms do. Whosoever tries to restrict your access to knowledge and information wants to control you.


All of this.
 
2014-05-11 07:38:09 AM
i majored in philosophy too, for fun because i enjoyed it.  my "real" major was creative writing, which really isn't any more marketable or useful in the long run, although i am finally self-publishing my novels on amazon and hoping that someone takes pity one me and buys them.  but i enjoyed the hell out of philosophy class, it really helped me personally develop my ideas about ethics and religion, and made me better at arguing with people.  not everyone will benefit from philosophy, though, because of this:

August11: If you are a dull, uninspired dimwit before you get a four-year degree, then you will eventually be a dull, uninspired dimwit with a four-year degree.

 
2014-05-11 07:39:28 AM

pxlboy: See, I think the 2nd Amendment is misattributed. It shouldn't be arms, it should be knowledge and education. What use are guns -- or freedom, or political anything -- when you're too ignorant to use it properly (and you're too clueless to know when it's being taken away)?


Well, guns come in handy for people who have to beware of upper-middle-class wazzocks who think you need to study comparative lit to actually be a real citizen.


Some questions answer themselves.
 
2014-05-11 07:39:58 AM

Ishkur: It's more than just that: It's necessary for the very concept of Democracy to exist.


You are absolutely correct in that education is necessary for Democracy to exist.  (Let's not get into a discussion of the fact that we don't actually have a Democracy - let's call it that for this discussion).

I would argue that the level of education necessary for the maintenance of that Democracy should be included in the K-12 system.  By the time a student has received a High School diploma, he should be well-versed not only in the rudiments of reading, 'riting, and 'rithmatic, but should be familiar with the various forms of government, the major historical movements in the world, and specifically the history and government of the country (in our case the U.S.)  There are two reasons that such education needs to be before college.  First, not everybody goes to college.  Second, we allow 18 year olds to vote.  Should they be allowed to vote before they understand what it is they're voting for?

University education should be for advanced studies of particular fields or professions.  High school students need to study laws and their effect on themselves and their interaction with the legal system.  To become a lawyer, however, requires university.
 
2014-05-11 07:40:12 AM
Rat:

Now days, unfortunately, philosophy in the liberal arts setting is taught by progressives that want, if nothing more, for you to not think for yourself, but to think like them.


You know, I think there's a lot of truth to that statement.  Even in higher education now there's a trend toward ideological indoctrination.  Real critical thinking is considered incorrect if it reaches an unapproved conclusion.
 
2014-05-11 07:54:21 AM

letrole: Mr. Right: No matter how much one admires Jefferson, when he makes this kind of comment, he may have lost sight of the fact that he was able to do the great things he did because there were a lot of people surrounding him who did all the daily, dirty, grinding work of living.  In his case, he had slaves and no matter how conflicted he may have been about that, even if he didn't have slaves, he needed to be surrounded by people who were digging the dirt and hauling the manure and weeding the garden so that he had time to write treatises about gardening.  He wouldn't have had time to write the Declaration of Independence if he was having to make his own breakfast and do his own laundry.

Which demonstrates the sort of critical thinking that shows why Jefferson was a more than bit of an entitled twat. Jefferson reminds me of a rock star who's lamenting in a Rolling Stone article about the soul-killing drudgery of having to live on the road in five-star hotels, for months at a time.


Jefferson may have lost sight of the number of people who allowed him to live the life he did but he could hardly be called an entitled twat.  Jefferson was one of the most brilliant men of his day.  I cannot recall the author or the book but some historian made reference to the fact that Jefferson may well have come as close as any man in history of knowing all that there was to know in the day.  There were many of his colleagues who were also highly educated and intelligent but he was the cream of the crop.

So, while Jefferson may not have always been cognizant of the fact that he could only do what he did because somebody else was doing the dishes, because of that supporting cast (and the supporting cast of the other founders of the country) we ended up with the Declaration of Independence.  I'd happily weed Jefferson's garden at modest wages if it freed him up to govern.
 
2014-05-11 07:57:17 AM

Delay: Let me see if I understand the argument.

1) Get a philosophy degree from an expensive liberal arts school.
2) Philosophy degree means unemployment.
3) This is how wealthy people protect their advantages: by limiting access to higher education to their own children.

That doesn't make sense.

1) Paying jobs don't matter for the wealthy.
2) College is a tax subsidized resort life for 4 years.
3) After graduation with a philosophy degree they collect rents and dividends, just like their wealthy parents.

That's more like it. Oh, and keep demanding more tax cuts offset by the usurious interest on the one trillion dollars (plus) in student debt.


Usurious? Lemme guess, anything >0 is usurious to you.
 
2014-05-11 08:09:43 AM
The moment you start to look down on other people who have an honest job...ANY hobest job...is the moment you start discouraging people from working.

The truth is, I have two degrees. One in the arts (culinary arts) and one professional (nursing). I see myself no more and no less important than the people who deliver my mail and pick up the garbage...because without them, id have to do it myself.
 
2014-05-11 08:11:10 AM

OscarTamerz: Liberal arts majors have been solving problems like poverty with problem solving skills like let's pay poor people to have lots of children or solving racial discrimination by discriminating on the basis of race which put an empty suit Chicago ward heeler and his shaved big foot wife in the White House. As for blaming the astronomical tuition hikes on rich parents that's like blaming rape victims for the rape. The universities' administration is overwhelmingly made up of liberal arts majors.


Always good to see a blatant racist post, instead of the usual ones who couch their hatred in weasel words. It's a refreshing change.
 
2014-05-11 08:12:22 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: Usurious? Lemme guess, anything >0 is usurious to you.


For a federal student loan, I would say 2 - 2.5% is OK. First, we should refinance all that $1.2 trillion debt at 2.5%. That's a start. Then there should be some significant forgiveness programs for those degrees that improve US productivity.
 
2014-05-11 08:14:13 AM
Fark It:
 The people doing the wool-pulling are the ones putting an arm around your shoulder, telling you to go to a four-year school to figure out what you love and to become a critical thinker, and reaching into your back-pocket to get at your wallet.

OscarTamerz:
 The universities' administration is overwhelmingly made up of liberal arts majors.

Mr. Right:
 On the other hand, way back when I was in college, the tuition, room and board at the private college I attended was about 1/4 of the national median wage at the time.
 Today, that same school's tuition, room and board is about 115% of national median wage,


Ishkur:
So always be wary of anyone trying to take away your access to high education. That's what all totalitarianisms do. Whosoever tries to restrict your access to knowledge and information wants to control you.

Intresting concept.
 
2014-05-11 08:14:39 AM

Mr. Right: Jefferson may have lost sight of the number of people who allowed him to live the life he did but he could hardly be called an entitled twat.  Jefferson was one of the most brilliant men of his day.  I cannot recall the author or the book but some historian made reference to the fact that Jefferson may well have come as close as any man in history of knowing all that there was to know in the day.  There were many of his colleagues who were also highly educated and intelligent but he was the cream of the crop.



All you've done here is provide the basis for his entitlement -- he was real smart. So depending somewhat on the the whole nature/nurture argument, he got his smarts the same way that landed gentry always got things -- through inheritance and the succession of the estate.

You might have any number of solicited opinions -- it's what you think if people happen to ask you. But when off your own back, you pontificate and declare and produce long-winded studies of the state of man, the concept of liberty, the idea of self-determination, etc etc, and you not only own slaves that were given to you by your daddy, but you buy more whilst playing the philosopher, then you're an entitled twat.
 
2014-05-11 08:16:43 AM
Nice THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LIBERAL WITH A JOB reference, subs!
 
2014-05-11 08:17:15 AM

Fark It: I agree, but I take great issue with this notion that seems to permeate academia, particularly at the university level, and particularly among the liberal arts types, that a "Liberal Arts Education" in German Literature or Philosophy or History or whatever is the only way to teach people critical thinking. That us "technical" people are just button-pushing rubes with small minds:


Not all "technical" people are like that, but you see these guys on Fark all the time.
 
2014-05-11 08:48:15 AM

Ishkur: This is how wealthy people protect their advantages: by limiting access to higher education to their own children.

It's more than just that: It's necessary for the very concept of Democracy to exist.

Democracies are incredibly difficult to establish and maintain. The prime requisite for a stable Democracy seems to be a highly educated and organized indigenous base. Tyrannies depend on poverty and ignorance: They restrict communication and education so they can keep the people separate, ignorant and distant, and hence unable to act or revolt.

The one thing that Democracy absolutely needs to flourish is education. Democracy doesn't automatically bestow freedom, but free people generally want free elections, and they won't demand them unless they are educated and aware. A highly informed and educated citizenry always demands more out of its government and is the best safeguard against tyranny. The people want it only if they have the knowledge and understanding to want it.

See, I think the 2nd Amendment is misattributed. It shouldn't be arms, it should be knowledge and education. What use are guns -- or freedom, or political anything -- when you're too ignorant to use it properly (and you're too clueless to know when it's being taken away)?

So always be wary of anyone trying to take away your access to high education. That's what all totalitarianisms do. Whosoever tries to restrict your access to knowledge and information wants to control you.


Did the last paragraph come from UN Commisioner Pravin Lal?
 
2014-05-11 08:52:39 AM

Mr. Right: What is free has no value, either to the giver or the recipient.


How's that loveless marriage working out for yah?
 
2014-05-11 08:59:44 AM
I really don't understand how some people need a 4 year education to learn how to "think and see things from a different perspective".  Since when is this not common sense?
 
2014-05-11 09:10:40 AM

Tourney3p0: I really don't understand how some people need a 4 year education to learn how to "think and see things from a different perspective".  Since when is this not common sense?


Since always. The default human position is a self-serving mask of reasonableness covering a narrow egocentrism.
 
2014-05-11 09:15:58 AM

letrole: Well, if this sort of attempt at partisan division is an example of Critical Thinking©, then it's probably not really that useful anyway.


It's not an attempt at "partisan division".
 
2014-05-11 09:23:27 AM

Hiro-ACiD: Mr. Right: What is free has no value, either to the giver or the recipient.

How's that loveless marriage working out for yah?


Probably about as will as brainless posts work for you.

I would ask what relevance marriage, loveless or not, has to price or value but just making a comment such as yours indicates a level of irrationality with which I am unwilling to deal.
 
2014-05-11 09:29:56 AM
I'm laughing because in 1975 when I graduated I was handed a mortar board with two tassels.  I asked why do I have two tassels when everyone else has one?  They said, "we will look it up and see."  It was because I had accidently received  a degree in philosophy.  Therefore I had a BS Chem E. and a BA Philosophy.  Every elective I took was a philosophy course because I enjoyed arguing, and/or occasionally agreeing with the professors and arguing with other students.  Philosophy TA's were definitely on my hit list.  For many years I hid it on my CV because I didn't want anyone to think I would be philosophizing when I should be analyzing real time data.  Just a few years from retirement I started to include it in my resume. I am now and have been for 38 years a consulting engineer for major oil companies.

So yes, Tourney3p0 if you had attended university you would know how those 4 years show you how to "think and see things from a different perspective."  As Ben Franklin said, "common sense is the least common of all the senses."
 
2014-05-11 09:30:59 AM
Son of Thunder:

Since always. The default human position is a self-serving mask of reasonableness covering a narrow egocentrism.

And the default place to take a dump is out in the woods, but it's 2014 and we've moved beyond that by now.

A person can be as self-serving as they'd like, but that doesn't preclude them from being conscious of alternatives.  It boggles my mind that people have to be taught things like this.
 
2014-05-11 09:31:59 AM
drxym: Critical thinking should be taught in school and I don't see it as an arts vs science thing so much as a core class everyone should learn. I suspect it would never happen in the US because religion would (correctly) see it as a threat to their recruitment drives.

letrole: Well, if this sort of attempt at partisan division is an example of Critical Thinking©, then it's probably not really that useful anyway.

drxym: It's not an attempt at "partisan division".


Sure it is. You just introduced religion into a discussion where it has no relevance, and your introduction itself was a dig at the motivations of religious activity per se. You have issues. BFD.

Now, I am not saying you shouldn't have differing opinion, you shouldn't challenge the accepted line, you shouldn't consider other angles, or anything like that. Sometimes, there's a topic drift, welcome to online discussions.

What I am saying is that you shouldn't toss in some sort of stoopid single issue shiat, especially if that toss has no merit. Again, this is partisan division for its own sake, and a boring one at that.
 
2014-05-11 09:42:22 AM
Hey, I majored in philosophy and I turned out okay.

I'm a Farker!
 
2014-05-11 09:44:39 AM
Eckyhade:

So yes, Tourney3p0 if you had attended university you would know how those 4 years show you how to "think and see things from a different perspective."  As Ben Franklin said, "common sense is the least common of all the senses."

Sure I did.  Got both my bachelor's (which included 4 philosophy classes) and my master's.

See, you assumed I had not gone to college simply because I felt that philosophy was common sense.  The reality is that I needed 24 hours of general education electives and chose 12 in philosophy, thus exposing me to some easy A's and wondering why anyone needed to be taught this stuff.  You need to take some psychology classes to learn to look at things from a different perspective.

In all seriousness though, you're an adult.  Did it really take you until you were 18 to step back and say to yourself, "Holy farking shiat, I just realized there are TWO sides to this issue!  Maybe even more!"  Weird shiat, man.
 
2014-05-11 09:46:30 AM

Tourney3p0: Son of Thunder:

Since always. The default human position is a self-serving mask of reasonableness covering a narrow egocentrism.

And the default place to take a dump is out in the woods, but it's 2014 and we've moved beyond that by now.

A person can be as self-serving as they'd like, but that doesn't preclude them from being conscious of alternatives.  It boggles my mind that people have to be taught things like this.


We may have improved our plumbing technology, but "it's 2014" does not change basic human nature. Being conscious of the existence of other perspectives has no bearing on the ability to think from those perspectives. For heaven's sake, just look at the Politics Tab.

To run with your example, modern plumbing means we can poop in one place instead of another, but we still poop. The Mighty Internet means we can now go to websites and fling metaphorical poop about how My Team is the team of reasonable people with a clear-eyed view of the facts, while The Other Team is a bunch of evil drooling morons (It boggles my mind why there still exist people who aren't on My Team. After all, it's 2014, so common sense should tell everyone that I'm right). Humanity hasn't changed, just the venue for our feces-related activities.
 
2014-05-11 10:05:27 AM
I teach Great Books courses, and if students can't explain why Virginia Woolf or Baudelaire matters in terms relevant to their own lives, I don't think they understand the book

It doesn't, that's why.
 
2014-05-11 10:10:02 AM

CruJones: Extremely well-employed philosophy major checking in for Fark patrol.

I'll even say philosophy is the most useful class I took in college, taught me how to think, see anything from multiple viewpoints,  also made me a annoying "devils advocate" but works great for problem-solving too.

Your degree gets you the first job, after that you're on your own.

/in IT


My degrees have not gotten me anywhere except in debt. I'm stuck in retail hell because that's the most relevant work history and since I worked all through school, its also the most experience I have. I've been rejected from jobs that I absolutely could do, but because I would need some training, I'm passed over. People tell me I should continue with a PHD but why? How will that improve my chances when I already have an MA that hasn't done shiat for me?

/forgive me, I received another rejection this week and its been hard to accept.
 
2014-05-11 10:20:51 AM
It's interesting that people who advocate for a Liberal Arts education because it opens the mind to new ideas generally seem very closed off to the idea that it's possible for someone to learn those same critical thinking skills from informal learning or during the course of an a Engineering or Science degree.
 
2014-05-11 10:35:59 AM

drxym: Critical thinking should be taught in school and I don't see it as an arts vs science thing so much as a core class everyone should learn. I suspect it would never happen in the US because religion would (correctly) see it as a threat to their recruitment drives.


Um no, you have that backwards. The Loony Left and Rigor Right are the ones who are terrified of critical thinkers. For the Enlightenment to have even happened it took the Protestant Reformation to start asking the dangerous questions that challenged the Oligarchy and rocked the boat. The only religion that controls anything is Islam; everything else is evil men and politicians controlling religion.

89% of the wars ever fought in the history of the Human race have only ever been about greed (land, salt, oil), and 5% of the rest of those wars were usually Islamic-initiated acts of hostility.

Go study history some more and maybe you'll find out why people *really* hate philosophy: philosophers dare to ask the right questions and get other people to ask any questions at all, and all politicians fear having truth discovered. The truth is usually that men are lying to you and using you, governments are lying to you and using you, banks are enslaving you, and critical thinkers on both sides of the religious fence want to set you free, and freedom terrifies the hegemony.
 
2014-05-11 10:45:21 AM

The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: It's interesting that people who advocate for a Liberal Arts education because it opens the mind to new ideas generally seem very closed off to the idea that it's possible for someone to learn those same critical thinking skills from informal learning or during the course of an a Engineering or Science degree.


Nobody denies "possible". It's "possible" to teach oneself engineering. It's "possible" to learn Koine Greek using only Mounce's flash cards. It's "possible" to teach oneself karate from YouTube karate videos.

It's "possible"... but not likely.
 
2014-05-11 10:49:01 AM
I notice that most people who bag on a specific college major either don't have college degrees, or lack imagination and much life experience.  Or both.

/wasn't a Philosophy major
 
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