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(CBS Miami)   This week's training chapter skipped by American Airlines employees: Chapter 12 - Veterans and their service dogs   (miami.cbslocal.com) divider line 46
    More: Fail, American Airlines, M.I.A., service dog, tags, no problem, Wounded Warrior, airlines, University of South Florida  
•       •       •

4492 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 May 2014 at 12:12 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-10 10:15:00 AM  
Veteran Claims Airline Refused To Allow Service Dog On MIA Flight

And was the vet MIA?  No, he was not.  He was right there.
 
2014-05-10 10:31:25 AM  
He should be happy he wasn't on that plane.  I mean it's been gone for what, two months now?
 
2014-05-10 10:44:50 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Veteran Claims Airline Refused To Allow Service Dog On MIA Flight

And was the vet MIA?  No, he was not.  He was right there.


He missed his POW connection with the stewardess.
 
2014-05-10 10:47:48 AM  
Going to Florida?  Was he being punished?
 
2014-05-10 12:16:29 PM  
How do people not know that helper animals exist?
 
2014-05-10 12:18:23 PM  
Their training seems LAX.
 
2014-05-10 12:22:47 PM  
His spine was replaced from roadside bombs? I'm surprised TSA let him through security.
 
2014-05-10 12:24:14 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Veteran Claims Airline Refused To Allow Service Dog On MIA Flight

And was the vet MIA?  No, he was not.  He was right there.


Yep. Article headline prompted a head tilt from me.
 
2014-05-10 12:24:38 PM  
I dunno, that dog looks like a loose cannon, vicious killer type.
 
2014-05-10 12:27:19 PM  
There's always 2 sides to every story. And usually the other side of this story involves a minor issue like him needing to change seats and this guy being a total and complete douche, yelling and screaming at people, and getting his ass thrown off the plane... then blaming the service dog.

Airlines handle service dogs on a daily basis. I'm calling BS on this one.
 
2014-05-10 12:27:30 PM  
You can tell this story is bullshiat because it claims they were able to get AA's customer service on the phone.
 
2014-05-10 12:31:33 PM  
He's got a serious lawsuit if he can prove any of his claims.
 
2014-05-10 12:32:22 PM  

95629: There's always 2 sides to every story. And usually the other side of this story involves a minor issue like him needing to change seats and this guy being a total and complete douche, yelling and screaming at people, and getting his ass thrown off the plane... then blaming the service dog.

Airlines handle service dogs on a daily basis. I'm calling BS on this one.


I'm with you on this one. As shiat as AA's customer service is, it's hard to believe that they wouldn't have offered to simply reseat him.
 
2014-05-10 12:34:40 PM  
He says the dog "meets the requirements of a service dog" but you gotta bring the paperwork/vac record & ID for it.

Sadly, there are too many fake service dogs out there now, so its not hard to see where the airlines are coming from (first article I could find)
http://www.petsadviser.com/service-animal/fake-service-dogs/
 
2014-05-10 12:36:16 PM  
"The flight attendant told me she said the policy states no pets in bulk-heading

The flight attendant is correct. Service animals must lay under the seat infront of you. In a bulkhead row, there is nowhere for the dog to lay. The solution is to switch the seats with other passengers. If I had to guess, the guy's wife checked in at the gate while he sat with the dog. The gate agent missed, or didn't give a damn enough to check that they were traveling with a service dog and gave them bulkhead row seats. The flight attendant should and could have easily fixed the issue. Also, the 'refusal' should have raised enough of a ruckus that the Captain should have known to step in and fix the situation.
 
2014-05-10 12:39:16 PM  
Probably one of those stolen valor dudes with a fake service dog. Probably never served in the core. Dog probably was home schooled and never got a service diploma.
 
2014-05-10 12:39:52 PM  

nanim: He says the dog "meets the requirements of a service dog" but you gotta bring the paperwork/vac record & ID for it.

Sadly, there are too many fake service dogs out there now, so its not hard to see where the airlines are coming from (first article I could find)
http://www.petsadviser.com/service-animal/fake-service-dogs/


This too. It has to be an actual 'service animal'. You can't just send ol' Maggie to obedience school and say she helps you out.
 
2014-05-10 12:40:31 PM  

Loucifer: Probably one of those stolen valor dudes with a fake service dog. Probably never served in the core. Dog probably was home schooled and never got a service diploma.


I bet it has great teeth.
 
2014-05-10 12:40:51 PM  

95629: Airlines handle service dogs on a daily basis. I'm calling BS on this one.


kellyclan: You can tell this story is bullshiat because it claims they were able to get AA's customer service on the phone.


This and this.  I call bullshiat. There is no way that went down as reported.  It would mean that at least half a dozen AA employees farked up the same easy, no-brainer decision.  Highly, highly unlikely, even for AA.

csb
  Back in the day I was a plaintiff's trial lawyer.  Some of my cases were ADA claims, as I was the only lawyer in a four county area that would take them.  This meant I screened many potential cases (rejecting about 95% of them).  One day, a deaf person called me (you may be wondering, how did deaf person use the phone - she used a service that had a person talk for her in the phone and translate aural comms to sign language).  Anyway, in the conversation, she said she wanted to go to Cosmetology school, but the school refused to provide her a full-time aural-to-sign translator.  I asked follow-up questions and learned the cost to the school would be more than the tuition.  I told her that she could pay for the translator, but the law didn't require the school to pay; the law only required the school to make "reasonable" accommodation, and it was unreasonable to ask the school to take a substantial financial loss just for her.  She started to argue with me and tell me I didn't know the law.  At that point I said, "Ma'am, you know what?  I'm not going to argue with you.  Even if you're right, which you're not, but even if you were, I'm not taking your case."  She responded, "are you turning down my case because I'm disabled?"  I replied, "No ma'am, I'm turning down your case because I don't like you.  Your disability matters not, I'm judging you on your personality only.  I don't want to work with someone that has such an elevated sense of entitlement.  You and I can't do business together."

/csb
 
2014-05-10 12:43:35 PM  

nanim: He says the dog "meets the requirements of a service dog" but you gotta bring the paperwork/vac record & ID for it.

Sadly, there are too many fake service dogs out there now, so its not hard to see where the airlines are coming from (first article I could find)
http://www.petsadviser.com/service-animal/fake-service-dogs/


There is no need to present paperwork for a service dog and it is against the law for an airline to request it. Paperwork can only be requested if he was attempting to bring the animal on as a ESA.
 
2014-05-10 12:45:05 PM  

Gunboat: 95629: Airlines handle service dogs on a daily basis. I'm calling BS on this one.

kellyclan: You can tell this story is bullshiat because it claims they were able to get AA's customer service on the phone.

This and this.  I call bullshiat. There is no way that went down as reported.  It would mean that at least half a dozen AA employees farked up the same easy, no-brainer decision.  Highly, highly unlikely, even for AA.

csb
  Back in the day I was a plaintiff's trial lawyer.  Some of my cases were ADA claims, as I was the only lawyer in a four county area that would take them.  This meant I screened many potential cases (rejecting about 95% of them).  One day, a deaf person called me (you may be wondering, how did deaf person use the phone - she used a service that had a person talk for her in the phone and translate aural comms to sign language).  Anyway, in the conversation, she said she wanted to go to Cosmetology school, but the school refused to provide her a full-time aural-to-sign translator.  I asked follow-up questions and learned the cost to the school would be more than the tuition.  I told her that she could pay for the translator, but the law didn't require the school to pay; the law only required the school to make "reasonable" accommodation, and it was unreasonable to ask the school to take a substantial financial loss just for her.  She started to argue with me and tell me I didn't know the law.  At that point I said, "Ma'am, you know what?  I'm not going to argue with you.  Even if you're right, which you're not, but even if you were, I'm not taking your case."  She responded, "are you turning down my case because I'm disabled?"  I replied, "No ma'am, I'm turning down your case because I don't like you.  Your disability matters not, I'm judging you on your personality only.  I don't want to work with someone that has such an elevated sense of entitlement.  You and I can't do business together."

/csb


Good for you. I wish more of your colleagues were like that.
 
2014-05-10 12:47:14 PM  

nanim: He says the dog "meets the requirements of a service dog" but you gotta bring the paperwork/vac record & ID for it.


Commonly Asked Questions from ada.gov:  (link:  http://www.ada.gov/qasrvc.htm )

3. Q: How can I tell if an animal is really a service animal and not just a pet?
A: Some, but not all, service animals wear special collars and harnesses. Some, but not all, are licensed or certified and have identification papers. If you are not certain that an animal is a service animal, you may ask the person who has the animal if it is a service animal required because of a disability. However, an individual who is going to a restaurant or theater is not likely to be carrying documentation of his or her medical condition or disability. Therefore, such documentation generally may not be required as a condition for providing service to an individual accompanied by a service animal. Although a number of states have programs to certify service animals, you may not insist on proof of state certification before permitting the service animal to accompany the person with a disability.
 
2014-05-10 12:53:15 PM  
Is anyone else sick of whiny veterans? I've worked within the veteran community for a while and I'm getting pretty tired of the whiny ones. I say this as two tour Iraq vet. Some guys I served with and others I know through the community feel so entitled just because they're "the 1%" who served. I was so happy to move on from my work with the veterans court in my county because it was all about giving hand outs to screw ups. Sometimes I wish we were like the WWII generation. Serve, get out, and go on with your life. Put some mementos on the wall. Celebrate Veterans Day and Memorial Day, never forget, but let it just be an aspect of your life. Not the end all, be all of your life.
 
2014-05-10 12:57:48 PM  

iron_city_ap: "The flight attendant told me she said the policy states no pets in bulk-heading

The flight attendant is correct. Service animals must lay under the seat infront of you. In a bulkhead row, there is nowhere for the dog to lay. The solution is to switch the seats with other passengers. If I had to guess, the guy's wife checked in at the gate while he sat with the dog. The gate agent missed, or didn't give a damn enough to check that they were traveling with a service dog and gave them bulkhead row seats. The flight attendant should and could have easily fixed the issue. Also, the 'refusal' should have raised enough of a ruckus that the Captain should have known to step in and fix the situation.


After 30 seconds of looking at my manuals, I was wrong. The dog just can't be in an exit row or aisle seat. Still, it should have taken the flight crew just as long to figure it out.

E. When possible, the passenger and service animal will be offered a seat with additional leg room, such as the bulkhead seat, but not in overwing or window exit rows.
 
2014-05-10 01:03:21 PM  

Ivandrago: Is anyone else sick of whiny veterans? I've worked within the veteran community for a while and I'm getting pretty tired of the whiny ones. I say this as two tour Iraq vet. Some guys I served with and others I know through the community feel so entitled just because they're "the 1%" who served. I was so happy to move on from my work with the veterans court in my county because it was all about giving hand outs to screw ups. Sometimes I wish we were like the WWII generation. Serve, get out, and go on with your life. Put some mementos on the wall. Celebrate Veterans Day and Memorial Day, never forget, but let it just be an aspect of your life. Not the end all, be all of your life.


and i cried someone fade me
 
2014-05-10 01:05:32 PM  

Ivandrago: Sometimes I wish we were like the WWII generation.


because PTSD wasn't a thing in the 40's and nobody came back from WWII broken and unable to reintegrate into society?

dumbass
 
2014-05-10 01:17:52 PM  
The airline was wrong.  Bulkhead seats (so long as they aren't emergency rows) are great places for service animals to travel.  There's more room for them to lie down, more room for feet, and they are more out of the way, and don't have someone bumping up and down in the seat they are trying to crawl under.

You can't have a service animal in an EMERGENCY row, and I could see an argument being made if that bulkhead was one with the little jump seat for the attendant to sit in during take-off/landing.  But only then.
 
2014-05-10 01:19:08 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Ivandrago: Sometimes I wish we were like the WWII generation.

because PTSD wasn't a thing in the 40's and nobody came back from WWII broken and unable to reintegrate into society?

dumbass


I was ass deep in veterans with PTSD claims. I worked with and mentored legitimate broken veterans who came back and couldn't deal with what they'd done and what had happened to them. This includes a guy who lost his PL and CO in an explosion that wrecked his body and his mind. What makes him different? Is that he and I were in the same BN and I remember vividly the day he was wounded and we lost those guys because A Co got to go home before E Co and he had an extra two weeks in country. I read about those losses from Texas while he was fighting for his life in Germany. The flipside to those who need help are those who are completely full of shiat. The "A mortar hit my FOB, where's my CAB and my PTSD diagnosis." People who use it as an excuse for everything shiatty that happens to them. Can't find a job? The private sector hates veterans. PTSD claim denied? The VA doesn't work. People whose whole life revolves around the war long after their time with it is done. Those I know who really struggle like to put it behind them. That guy I mentioned above? Had 5 PTSD related DUI's. It took 3 years, but he finally seems to have his life going the way he wants. He doesn't parade around his service, neither does the Silver Star recipient who came through the court. It's these guys wearing 7.62 shirts with stickers all over their cars who want everyone to give a shiat about their services that annoy me.
 
2014-05-10 01:20:09 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Ivandrago: Sometimes I wish we were like the WWII generation.

because PTSD wasn't a thing in the 40's and nobody came back from WWII broken and unable to reintegrate into society?

dumbass


You go from flying a P-51 or a Lightening everyday back to being a book keeper.  Lots of suicides that weren't officially suicides.
 
2014-05-10 01:25:38 PM  
They made their mistake by not calling in a real policeman to taser the veteran and shoot the dog.
 
2014-05-10 01:33:24 PM  

Ivandrago: It's these guys wearing 7.62 shirts


I live about a mile from Bethesda Naval Medical and have never seen one of these 7.62 shirts.   I googled them and for the most part have to say they're pretty much asshole spore.
 
2014-05-10 01:35:03 PM  

Ivandrago: Voiceofreason01: Ivandrago: Sometimes I wish we were like the WWII generation.

because PTSD wasn't a thing in the 40's and nobody came back from WWII broken and unable to reintegrate into society?

dumbass

I was ass deep in veterans with PTSD claims. I worked with and mentored legitimate broken veterans who came back and couldn't deal with what they'd done and what had happened to them. This includes a guy who lost his PL and CO in an explosion that wrecked his body and his mind. What makes him different? Is that he and I were in the same BN and I remember vividly the day he was wounded and we lost those guys because A Co got to go home before E Co and he had an extra two weeks in country. I read about those losses from Texas while he was fighting for his life in Germany. The flipside to those who need help are those who are completely full of shiat. The "A mortar hit my FOB, where's my CAB and my PTSD diagnosis." People who use it as an excuse for everything shiatty that happens to them. Can't find a job? The private sector hates veterans. PTSD claim denied? The VA doesn't work. People whose whole life revolves around the war long after their time with it is done. Those I know who really struggle like to put it behind them. That guy I mentioned above? Had 5 PTSD related DUI's. It took 3 years, but he finally seems to have his life going the way he wants. He doesn't parade around his service, neither does the Silver Star recipient who came through the court. It's these guys wearing 7.62 shirts with stickers all over their cars who want everyone to give a shiat about their services that annoy me.


Hey, Francis, didja know PTSD is contagious?
 
2014-05-10 02:25:29 PM  
Funny, they were in the news about chapter 11 a year or two ago.
 
2014-05-10 02:31:15 PM  
When I fly with my dog, we get the bulkhead seats. The only paperwork I have to show lists that she is up-to-date on her shots and is physically able to fly. She lays on her blanket and off we go.
 
2014-05-10 03:02:55 PM  
Some service dogs fit best in bulkhead seating, depending on the plane configuration. When bulkheads aren't configured as exit rows, they're a very common seating choice for passengers with service animals. The Air Carriers Accessibility Act (ACAA) specifically allows passenger requests for bulkhead seating for this reason with 24 hours notice.

But the conflict here sounds much more related to ascertaining whether the dog was a service animal or not. While the airline is striking a conciliatory tone about proper training, it's quite possible that they met their legal obligation; it depends on how the dog was identified as a service animal.

Linux Granny: ... "Therefore, such documentation generally may not be required as a condition for providing service to an individual accompanied by a service animal." ...


Note the word "generally". The ACAA allows airlines to require "appropriate identification" that a dog is a service animal: documentation or an ID card for the dog, an identifying harness, tag, or other indication. Failing that, they have to accept a "credible verbal assurance of the passenger", but the passenger also has a right under the ADA to withhold any information about their disability or the purpose of a service animal, and what's "credible" is obviously ambiguous. The airline is allowed to ask for a letter from a doctor if the animal is for emotional support only. In this case, it sounds like the passenger has non-apparent physical support needs for the animal, so would not have to provide a doctor's letter, and exercised his right to not tell the airline much else. Which party would prevail legally would depend on details that aren't included in news coverage.
 
2014-05-10 03:07:23 PM  

snocone: Hey, Francis, didja know PTSD is contagious?


Maybe I don't like people calling me a dumbass when I know what I'm talking about.
Who were you with and where? Because you seem to think you're some kind of authority on PTSD and reintegration. I'm assuming this comes from firsthand knowledge and not just having read Band of Brothers. I'd love to share your experiences with the local veteran treatment center. I'll bring it up at the next board meeting.
 
2014-05-10 03:12:01 PM  
Can the dog open the e-door? Then it doesn't belong in the bulkhead area.

Everyone sitting next to the e-doors has to give verbal confirmation that they are capable and willing to help and assist with the door. I'm ok with them NOT ALLOWING A DOG TO BE IN THE WAY OF AN EMERGENCY EXIT.

/They should have moved him to Business Class and given the dog a steak.
 
2014-05-10 03:35:40 PM  

Ivandrago: snocone: Hey, Francis, didja know PTSD is contagious?

Maybe I don't like people calling me a dumbass when I know what I'm talking about.
Who were you with and where? Because you seem to think you're some kind of authority on PTSD and reintegration. I'm assuming this comes from firsthand knowledge and not just having read Band of Brothers. I'd love to share your experiences with the local veteran treatment center. I'll bring it up at the next board meeting.


Hey, uh, Ivan?

Sounds like those other soldiers aren't the only ones with post-combat issues, you know? Maybe YOU need some PTSD counseling.
 
2014-05-10 03:45:36 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Ivandrago: snocone: Hey, Francis, didja know PTSD is contagious?

Maybe I don't like people calling me a dumbass when I know what I'm talking about.
Who were you with and where? Because you seem to think you're some kind of authority on PTSD and reintegration. I'm assuming this comes from firsthand knowledge and not just having read Band of Brothers. I'd love to share your experiences with the local veteran treatment center. I'll bring it up at the next board meeting.

Hey, uh, Ivan?

Sounds like those other soldiers aren't the only ones with post-combat issues, you know? Maybe YOU need some PTSD counseling.


I appreciate your concern, but I went through CPT for PTSD about 4 years ago.
 
2014-05-10 04:00:43 PM  

Ivandrago: Gyrfalcon: Ivandrago: snocone: Hey, Francis, didja know PTSD is contagious?

Maybe I don't like people calling me a dumbass when I know what I'm talking about.
Who were you with and where? Because you seem to think you're some kind of authority on PTSD and reintegration. I'm assuming this comes from firsthand knowledge and not just having read Band of Brothers. I'd love to share your experiences with the local veteran treatment center. I'll bring it up at the next board meeting.

Hey, uh, Ivan?

Sounds like those other soldiers aren't the only ones with post-combat issues, you know? Maybe YOU need some PTSD counseling.

I appreciate your concern, but I went through CPT for PTSD about 4 years ago.


It's ok... we're all friends here. You're safe.

*backs out slowly*
 
2014-05-10 04:24:55 PM  

kellyclan: nanim: He says the dog "meets the requirements of a service dog" but you gotta bring the paperwork/vac record & ID for it.

Sadly, there are too many fake service dogs out there now, so its not hard to see where the airlines are coming from (first article I could find)
http://www.petsadviser.com/service-animal/fake-service-dogs/

There is no need to present paperwork for a service dog and it is against the law for an airline to request it. Paperwork can only be requested if he was attempting to bring the animal on as a ESA.


I did not know that, but you are absolutely correct. All they can ask is a) is it a service dog and b) what does it help you do. Also, only dogs can be service animals under the ADA; no service iguanas or service monkeys, fake-disability-having San Francisco drama queens. San Francisco is the proof that service animals need to be regulated, though; people take unrestrained pets everywhere (as in pit bull puppy on the bus), and just claim it's a service animal.
 
2014-05-10 04:31:41 PM  

kellyclan: You can tell this story is bullshiat because it claims they were able to get AA's customer service on the phone.


HA
 
2014-05-10 04:33:58 PM  

kellyclan: nanim: He says the dog "meets the requirements of a service dog" but you gotta bring the paperwork/vac record & ID for it.

Sadly, there are too many fake service dogs out there now, so its not hard to see where the airlines are coming from (first article I could find)
http://www.petsadviser.com/service-animal/fake-service-dogs/

There is no need to present paperwork for a service dog and it is against the law for an airline to request it. Paperwork can only be requested if he was attempting to bring the animal on as a ESA.

---
That is incorrect.

Read down in section 382.117 of the DOT's summary of airline regs re service dogs:
"The carrier may require the passenger to provide current documentation...(specifics follow)"
http://www.iaadp.org/dot-final-rule-specifics-SA-08.html
 
2014-05-10 09:35:09 PM  
Also, emotional support dogs are NOT, by law, service animals.
 
2014-05-10 09:51:13 PM  
sleeps in trees:
Thirded.  We get stopped all the time regarding our service dog (Golden Retriever) yet, people take their little rats in stores because it "helps with their depression" and not word one is said.  Note, I have no problem if it is a real service dog but, vests, identifying badges and paper work are required for the dog to be considered as such.   Also, am I the only one that was taught not to touch a service dog when they are working.  I even have a collar with SERVICE DOG DO NOT PET in neon yellow and people ignore it completely.  I feel for the kids, because I hate to say, no you cannot pet him.  Sometimes I even get the "how dare you" glare from the parents.

TV shows have done a pretty good job educating people about that. However, there are always little tiny kids, people who are just snowflakes, and people who have legitimate issues grabbing at my dog. SO we have taught her a 'visit' command, where kids and the curious may meet her and learn about her and her job. It breaks the ice, people learn something, and it's a quick break for my dog.  We can explain why you must always ask before touching, and why you must make sure the dog is permitted to visit.
 
2014-05-10 11:47:33 PM  
Gross people.
 
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