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(Mirror.co.uk)   Mother is shocked. SHOCKED That her 5 year old son has been banned from playgroup for dressing like a princess   (mirror.co.uk) divider line 176
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4544 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 May 2014 at 12:09 PM (32 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-10 09:43:29 AM  
Romeo Clarke has a collection of 100 dresses and eight pairs of children's high heels which he likes to wear every day after school.

The fact that he's a boy doesn't even register in the context of what is wrong with that sentence.
 
2014-05-10 09:52:28 AM  
 
2014-05-10 09:54:36 AM  

BMFPitt: Romeo Clarke has a collection of 100 dresses and eight pairs of children's high heels which he likes to wear every day after school.

The fact that he's a boy doesn't even register in the context of what is wrong with that sentence.


Seriously, I'm a grown woman who plays in a band (and always dresses up to do so) and I don't own 100 dresses and skirts.   OR 8 pairs of shoes.  And don't five-year-olds grow out of clothes/shoes quickly? I remember hearing "you're all growing like weeds" a lot as a kid when my mom didn't have money to buy us new wardrobes because we had growth spurts.
 
2014-05-10 09:55:29 AM  

BMFPitt: Romeo Clarke has a collection of 100 dresses and eight pairs of children's high heels which he likes to wear every day after school.

The fact that he's a boy doesn't even register in the context of what is wrong with that sentence.


That does seem like a lot.

Eddie Izzard had a great response to this. He is not wearing a girl's dress, he is wearing a boy's dress, bought for and owned by a boy.
 
2014-05-10 09:55:40 AM  
But the youngster, who has three older sisters, was accused by organisers of the church-run club of "confusing" the other children by his choice of clothes.

They're saying the same thing about his mother
 
2014-05-10 09:57:11 AM  

I_Am_Weasel: But the youngster, who has three older sisters, was accused by organisers of the church-run club of "confusing" the other children by his choice of clothes.

They're saying the same thing about his mother


Well, that's overly judgemental, weasel.

/weasel
 
2014-05-10 10:23:32 AM  
I see that Dad enjoys dressing like a woman also.
i.imgur.com
 
2014-05-10 10:25:46 AM  
Part of being a parent is saying no.  While I get where she's coming from in terms of trying to not establish strong traditional gender roles, she also needs to teach the kid how to function in society and not indulge his every whim.

Eddie Izzard can wear a dress on stage because he's a successful comedian.  If he worked in a bank, taught grade school, or sold real estate his wardrobe choices wouldn't fly.
 
2014-05-10 10:35:53 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: Part of being a parent is saying no.  While I get where she's coming from in terms of trying to not establish strong traditional gender roles, she also needs to teach the kid how to function in society and not indulge his every whim.

Eddie Izzard can wear a dress on stage because he's a successful comedian.  If he worked in a bank, taught grade school, or sold real estate his wardrobe choices wouldn't fly.


So only successful comedians can crossdress? Why do you find it funny? You seem to think it's otherwise wrong. So what if the kid want's to were the older sisters hand me downs or even gets there own. I may be a normal playing dress up. Or it could be the kid is TG/TS. It does no harm except those that are overly concerned about how others live and don't want their kids exposed to different..
 
2014-05-10 10:44:31 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: TuteTibiImperes: Part of being a parent is saying no.  While I get where she's coming from in terms of trying to not establish strong traditional gender roles, she also needs to teach the kid how to function in society and not indulge his every whim.

Eddie Izzard can wear a dress on stage because he's a successful comedian.  If he worked in a bank, taught grade school, or sold real estate his wardrobe choices wouldn't fly.

So only successful comedians can crossdress? Why do you find it funny? You seem to think it's otherwise wrong. So what if the kid want's to were the older sisters hand me downs or even gets there own. I may be a normal playing dress up. Or it could be the kid is TG/TS. It does no harm except those that are overly concerned about how others live and don't want their kids exposed to different..


He's five, he doesn't know what he is. I'm sure there are other occupations where one could get away with crossdressing, but I'm equally sure you realize it wouldn't be considered acceptable in a typical office environment.

If he wants to play dress up at home, sure, why not.  His mom does need to teach him that what's acceptable at home isn't always acceptable in public however.

Exploring individuality is all well and good, but it's equally important to learn how to conform to social norms.
 
2014-05-10 11:03:21 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: tinfoil-hat maggie: TuteTibiImperes: Part of being a parent is saying no.  While I get where she's coming from in terms of trying to not establish strong traditional gender roles, she also needs to teach the kid how to function in society and not indulge his every whim.

Eddie Izzard can wear a dress on stage because he's a successful comedian.  If he worked in a bank, taught grade school, or sold real estate his wardrobe choices wouldn't fly.

So only successful comedians can crossdress? Why do you find it funny? You seem to think it's otherwise wrong. So what if the kid want's to were the older sisters hand me downs or even gets there own. I may be a normal playing dress up. Or it could be the kid is TG/TS. It does no harm except those that are overly concerned about how others live and don't want their kids exposed to different..

He's five, he doesn't know what he is. I'm sure there are other occupations where one could get away with crossdressing, but I'm equally sure you realize it wouldn't be considered acceptable in a typical office environment.

If he wants to play dress up at home, sure, why not.  His mom does need to teach him that what's acceptable at home isn't always acceptable in public however.

Exploring individuality is all well and good, but it's equally important to learn how to conform to social norms.


Meh, he's five. He doesn't have to learn that so early, or ever. He will have plenty of time later in life for the norms to beat him down.
 
2014-05-10 11:06:36 AM  
Ma'am,....step away from the eyebrow pencil.
 
2014-05-10 11:35:34 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: tinfoil-hat maggie: TuteTibiImperes: Part of being a parent is saying no.  While I get where she's coming from in terms of trying to not establish strong traditional gender roles, she also needs to teach the kid how to function in society and not indulge his every whim.

Eddie Izzard can wear a dress on stage because he's a successful comedian.  If he worked in a bank, taught grade school, or sold real estate his wardrobe choices wouldn't fly.

So only successful comedians can crossdress? Why do you find it funny? You seem to think it's otherwise wrong. So what if the kid want's to were the older sisters hand me downs or even gets there own. I may be a normal playing dress up. Or it could be the kid is TG/TS. It does no harm except those that are overly concerned about how others live and don't want their kids exposed to different..

He's five, he doesn't know what he is. I'm sure there are other occupations where one could get away with crossdressing, but I'm equally sure you realize it wouldn't be considered acceptable in a typical office environment.

If he wants to play dress up at home, sure, why not.  His mom does need to teach him that what's acceptable at home isn't always acceptable in public however.

Exploring individuality is all well and good, but it's equally important to learn how to conform to social norms.


BS I know at three or four and just cause I guess your cis gendered ass never had to question at any time doesn't mean those questions don't start from the beginning. Sure dad should beat the kid into not doing it and dad can pay fpr the suicide attempts later in the kids life if the kid is TS.
 
2014-05-10 11:42:01 AM  
Seeing how it's a church-run organization this isn't too surprising to me. My sister sent her daughter to a church-run nursery school for a short time, but removed her when she came home crying because they kept taking toys away from her & telling her "girls aren't allowed to play with boys' toys" (i.e. toy trucks, cars, etc.).

Anyhow, that kid is adorable and isn't doing anyone harm by wearing dresses.
 
2014-05-10 11:45:01 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: Part of being a parent is saying no.  While I get where she's coming from in terms of trying to not establish strong traditional gender roles, she also needs to teach the kid how to function in society and not indulge his every whim.

Eddie Izzard can wear a dress on stage because he's a successful comedian.  If he worked in a bank, taught grade school, or sold real estate his wardrobe choices wouldn't fly.


Yeah... but, he doesn't work in a bank.  A play-group isn't a job.  He's a kid for fark's sake.  And one of the first things I made clear when I became a Library Director was that we don't teach gender assignment.  We have a princess boy in one of our programs.  He's welcome and he can wear whatever he likes as long as it covers the legally mandated body parts.  I was a tomboy growing up.  Would you suggest that we tell girls that their choice of boys' clothing is inappropriate and they should wear more dresses?  Like my Christian school told my family when I showed up to school in pants?

We have a dress code for staff - but if I had a staff member who was transitioning, do you think I should tell him that, because his physical body is female, he can't present as male?  Or if her body is male she can't present as female?  How do you feel about monastic habits, which are pretty-much unisex and becoming more so, some females opting to make "monk" a genderless term and wear hooded cowls instead of veils.  You okay with that?

I'm interested to know where you think the line should be drawn on sartorial discipline.
 
2014-05-10 12:03:43 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: TuteTibiImperes: Part of being a parent is saying no.  While I get where she's coming from in terms of trying to not establish strong traditional gender roles, she also needs to teach the kid how to function in society and not indulge his every whim.

Eddie Izzard can wear a dress on stage because he's a successful comedian.  If he worked in a bank, taught grade school, or sold real estate his wardrobe choices wouldn't fly.

Yeah... but, he doesn't work in a bank.  A play-group isn't a job.  He's a kid for fark's sake.  And one of the first things I made clear when I became a Library Director was that we don't teach gender assignment.  We have a princess boy in one of our programs.  He's welcome and he can wear whatever he likes as long as it covers the legally mandated body parts.  I was a tomboy growing up.  Would you suggest that we tell girls that their choice of boys' clothing is inappropriate and they should wear more dresses?  Like my Christian school told my family when I showed up to school in pants?

We have a dress code for staff - but if I had a staff member who was transitioning, do you think I should tell him that, because his physical body is female, he can't present as male?  Or if her body is male she can't present as female?  How do you feel about monastic habits, which are pretty-much unisex and becoming more so, some females opting to make "monk" a genderless term and wear hooded cowls instead of veils.  You okay with that?

I'm interested to know where you think the line should be drawn on sartorial discipline.


Women have always had the leeway to wear what would traditionally be considered men's clothing, at least to a degree. Slacks and a button up shirt or polo are pretty much unisex these days, and that's fine.

I also don't really have an issue with the kid wanting to wear a dress now and then, but I believe the mom is doing the kid a disservice by overindulging the behavior.  Sure, maybe he'll be TG later in life, or maybe he won't, but it doesn't seem like something a five year old should even be aware of.

Then again, any memories from before I was 12 or so just exist in a hazy fog in my mind.

The play group's justification is half right IMO.  I don't know if I buy the 'it may confuse the other children' bit, but from the stance of preventing teasing/bullying it makes sense.

Is it right for someone to be teased/bullied because of how they look the the clothes they wear? No, of course not.  However, the reality is that it does happen, and outside the (presumably) safe confines of the playgroup it could get much worse.

I don't see the problem with asking the mother to teach the kid 'boys are expected to dress like this, and even if it may not make sense to you now, it's the way things are and part of life is accepting and following rules that don't necessarily make sense to you'.
 
2014-05-10 12:14:23 PM  
When I was a kid, I'd have preferred a boy dressed like a princess hanging out with me rather than the repressed kids with anger issues.
 
2014-05-10 12:21:36 PM  
I don't see the problem with indulging the kid.

Children are one of the most forgiving, understanding and accepting sections of society out there.   Possibly only beaten by teenagers in this regard.
 
2014-05-10 12:21:57 PM  
They don't let me do it anymore either, those judgemental jerks.
 
2014-05-10 12:22:40 PM  
100 dresses at five? Sounds like mom is doing more than just "encouraging" him.
 
2014-05-10 12:23:06 PM  
I am sure he will turn out fine.


img.fark.netimg.fark.netimg.fark.net
 
2014-05-10 12:23:09 PM  
Ah, England.   Where any little boy can aspire to grow up to become queen.
 
2014-05-10 12:23:29 PM  
TuteTibiImperes: Women have always had the leeway to wear what would traditionally be considered men's clothing, at least to a degree. Slacks and a button up shirt or polo are pretty much unisex these days, and that's fine.

But it wasn't always.  My gran was the first woman to wear slack to her office. In 1972.  It hasn't been that long.


I also don't really have an issue with the kid wanting to wear a dress now and then, but I believe the mom is doing the kid a disservice by overindulging the behavior.  Sure, maybe he'll be TG later in life, or maybe he won't, but it doesn't seem like something a five year old should even be aware of.

And that's my point.  He's not making a statement, as an adult or even a teenager would be.  He like his princess dresses, and it's not ours to assign any further meaning to that.  Jesus.  He's a kid.


Then again, any memories from before I was 12 or so just exist in a hazy fog in my mind.

The play group's justification is half right IMO.  I don't know if I buy the 'it may confuse the other children' bit, but from the stance of preventing teasing/bullying it makes sense.


Ah.  So, if he were, say, poor, and wore clothes the other kids don't like, bullying would be OK then, too?  

Is it right for someone to be teased/bullied because of how they look the the clothes they wear? No, of course not.  However, the reality is that it does happen, and outside the (presumably) safe confines of the playgroup it could get much worse.

So obviously the answer is to never do anything that might get you teased.  Because other people's comfort with your appearance, as a 5-year-old, is more important than having fun.  Let's not dissemble - this is about "OMGZ - GENDER BENDER!  EVILLLLL HOMO!!!!" when the kid just likes the dress, and what the fark is wrong with a boy who doesn't see "girl stuff" as lesser?   We don't bully girls who wear jeans and shirts.  Don't you find it telling that a lot of men's clothing is, in your word "unisex", but women's clothing is not?  It's almost as if one social stratum was considered more desirable.

I don't see the problem with asking the mother to teach the kid 'boys are expected to dress like this, and even if it may not make sense to you now, it's the way things are and part of life is accepting and following rules that don't necessarily make sense to you'.

At school, sure.  When your parent has told you "you can't wear that this time", yes.

At play?  Please.
 
2014-05-10 12:24:20 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: I don't see the problem with asking the mother to teach the kid 'boys are expected to dress like this, and even if it may not make sense to you now, it's the way things are and part of life is accepting and following rules that don't necessarily make sense to you'.


That's the shiattiest reasoning I've ever heard.
 
2014-05-10 12:24:28 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: I guess your cis gendered ass


Did he state what he was? Or are you just assuming that out of prejudice?
 
2014-05-10 12:24:53 PM  
Somehow the concept of any 5 year old with 100 "play" dresses and any number of high heeled shoes bothers me more than whether they are gender-appropriate or not.
 
2014-05-10 12:28:16 PM  
Don't want to confuse the kids? Confusion? Is that all? This talking point may be my new pet peeve. Just a couple weeks ago, my kids' elementary school was doing FCATs (which pisses me off on a different level, but save it for another thread), and the principal of the school got on the morning announcements and said something to the effect of "being confused is ok, it means you're learning".. How about you mamby pamby parents do your frickin job and frickin explain it then if it's so "confusing". Frankly, it's not that hard to comprehend except by knuckledraggers, and I'm not comfortable setting policy to suit people who find it hard to understand simple things.
 
2014-05-10 12:29:44 PM  
I don't let my daughter wear her dresses outside of the house.  They are playthings to be worn in the house (unless there's some reason for it).  It's called 'boundaries'.

My son likes to put on her dresses occasionally and it doesn't bother me, but he also likes to wear superhero costumes, too.  I still wouldn't let him wear the costumes outside of the house.

Really seems like the mother if flaunting it, if you ask my opinion.
 
2014-05-10 12:31:19 PM  
Nothing like raising your child to be a social pariah.
 
2014-05-10 12:31:49 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Sure, maybe he'll be TG later in life, or maybe he won't, but it doesn't seem like something a five year old should even be aware of.


1. He's playing dress-up.  Even his mom said he's a pretty average boy otherwise.
2. You really need to go educate yourself on trans issues before you try to talk on the subject.
 
2014-05-10 12:32:16 PM  
"I am not happy with the way the whole thing has been dealt with. We think he has been singled out and he definitely won't be going back."

Uhm, that's pretty much what they wanted if he can't be dressed appropriately or be picked up after school by someone who doesn't scare the farking shiat out of the other kids, parents and teachers/caregivers and give them nightmares!!!  So, does it really think that statement is some kind of threat or retribution?

/that "woman" (if it is one) gives me the creeps!
 
2014-05-10 12:35:44 PM  
It's his choice of clothing! I don't force him to dress in little girl's clothing or anything.
 
2014-05-10 12:35:49 PM  

bborchar: I don't let my daughter wear her dresses outside of the house.


WTF?
 
2014-05-10 12:36:31 PM  
You know, enough of the PC crap. He is a boy, parents should make him dress and act like one. If he wants to be a bone zombie later on in life, fine, but a 5 year old doesn't get to choose their clothes to begin with.
 
2014-05-10 12:37:06 PM  

austerity101: 1. He's playing dress-up. Even his mom said he's a pretty average boy otherwise.


The same mom that bought him 100 dresses and shoes to match. It sounds like she either wanted a girl or wants the most unique puppy at the show.
 
2014-05-10 12:37:17 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Sure, maybe he'll be TG later in life, or maybe he won't, but it doesn't seem like something a five year old should even be aware of.


I disagree.  Gender identity, like sexual orientation, is hardwired into the brain, so if the kid is in fact transgender, he's probably aware of it on some level, although I wouldn't expect a five-year-old to be able to self-diagnose as such.  Heck, many transgender adults have difficulty making sense of the fact that their mind and body disagree on whether they're male or female.
 
2014-05-10 12:38:33 PM  
As long as the dresses don't meet the ground he should still be able to play soccer/football, right?
 
2014-05-10 12:40:56 PM  

austerity101: TuteTibiImperes: Sure, maybe he'll be TG later in life, or maybe he won't, but it doesn't seem like something a five year old should even be aware of.

1. He's playing dress-up.  Even his mom said he's a pretty average boy otherwise.
2. You really need to go educate yourself on trans issues before you try to talk on the subject.


Pretty much this; any trans* people (people born in the wrong body, or the rare intersex person) know something's up by around his age and usually have stories of being told not to  act, walk or talk too much like a girl or boy.


It's more than just an otherwise-normal boy or girl wearing the "wrong" clothes or playing with the "wrong" toys.
 
2014-05-10 12:45:00 PM  

anfrind: Gender identity, like sexual orientation, is hardwired into the brain, so if the kid is in fact transgender, he's probably aware of it on some level, although I wouldn't expect a five-year-old to be able to self-diagnose as such. Heck, many transgender adults have difficulty making sense of the fact that their mind and body disagree on whether they're male or female.


And what if he's just a little boy in a little boy's body who will grow up to like girls? Isn't this doing some damage on that end of the spectrum? If it was A dress for playtime or a couple hand-me-downs from sisters, I'd think nothing of it. But at this rate, I don't think the issue is about what he thinks, I think it's all about what mom wants.
 
2014-05-10 12:45:13 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: TuteTibiImperes: tinfoil-hat maggie: TuteTibiImperes: Part of being a parent is saying no.  While I get where she's coming from in terms of trying to not establish strong traditional gender roles, she also needs to teach the kid how to function in society and not indulge his every whim.

Eddie Izzard can wear a dress on stage because he's a successful comedian.  If he worked in a bank, taught grade school, or sold real estate his wardrobe choices wouldn't fly.

So only successful comedians can crossdress? Why do you find it funny? You seem to think it's otherwise wrong. So what if the kid want's to were the older sisters hand me downs or even gets there own. I may be a normal playing dress up. Or it could be the kid is TG/TS. It does no harm except those that are overly concerned about how others live and don't want their kids exposed to different..

He's five, he doesn't know what he is. I'm sure there are other occupations where one could get away with crossdressing, but I'm equally sure you realize it wouldn't be considered acceptable in a typical office environment.

If he wants to play dress up at home, sure, why not.  His mom does need to teach him that what's acceptable at home isn't always acceptable in public however.

Exploring individuality is all well and good, but it's equally important to learn how to conform to social norms.

BS I know at three or four and just cause I guess your cis gendered ass never had to question at any time doesn't mean those questions don't start from the beginning. Sure dad should beat the kid into not doing it and dad can pay fpr the suicide attempts later in the kids life if the kid is TS.


My youngest sister played with a boy who lived across the street. It was obvious by age 5 that he was gay. It was a diffent time, I have no idea what he knew then.

It's almost 50yrs later now. Yep, he's gay.

/born that way
//no one cares that he's gay
 
2014-05-10 12:45:24 PM  

Thunderpipes: If he wants to be a bone zombie


www.sherdog.net

The f*ck's a "bone zombie?"
 
2014-05-10 12:50:17 PM  
Is there a such thing as a mental Munchausen by Proxy? As opposed to actual physical abuse, is she inflicting some sort of affectation on her kid so she can get attention?
 
2014-05-10 12:50:53 PM  

bborchar: I don't let my daughter wear her dresses outside of the house.  They are playthings to be worn in the house (unless there's some reason for it).  It's called 'boundaries'.

My son likes to put on her dresses occasionally and it doesn't bother me, but he also likes to wear superhero costumes, too.  I still wouldn't let him wear the costumes outside of the house.

Really seems like the mother if flaunting it, if you ask my opinion.


You're right. The kid didn't buy those 100 dresses himself.
 
2014-05-10 12:51:04 PM  

thamike: Thunderpipes: If he wants to be a bone zombie

[www.sherdog.net image 300x216]

The f*ck's a "bone zombie?"


I'm surprised he wrote that much without using the L word.
 
2014-05-10 12:54:26 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Exploring individuality is all well and good, but it's equally important to learn how to conform to social norms.


fark social norms.
 
2014-05-10 12:54:44 PM  
I think it's great to be who you are. only problem is this nowhere near a perfect world. let him keep wearing dresses to school. except that he will have his ass handed to him every single day when he gets to real school. other kids don't even need a reason to pick on someone they think is different. the mom is doing a huge disservice to this kid. if it really is his choice to dress like a girl, do it at home. life is tough enough trying to grow up and fit in. why you would let the sh*t storm you know is coming in a few years happen is beyond me.
 
2014-05-10 12:54:48 PM  
My guess the other five year olds don't really care about this kid being in a dress. At most they'll probably like;

KID 1: Why are you in a dress?
KID 2: Because I like it.
KID 1: But dresses are for girls.
KID 2: Not this one. It's mine. I like it because it's shiny.
KID 1: It is shiny. (walks away and plays with blocks.)

Kids that age really don't care. It's always the adults who make a huge fuss. And then the kids see the adults make a huge fuss and follow suit.
 
2014-05-10 12:54:59 PM  

bingethinker: bborchar: I don't let my daughter wear her dresses outside of the house.  They are playthings to be worn in the house (unless there's some reason for it).  It's called 'boundaries'.

My son likes to put on her dresses occasionally and it doesn't bother me, but he also likes to wear superhero costumes, too.  I still wouldn't let him wear the costumes outside of the house.

Really seems like the mother if flaunting it, if you ask my opinion.

You're right. The kid didn't buy those 100 dresses himself.


My daughter has about 20...most of them were hand-me-downs from her cousin, some I bought at the consignment story and a few were presents or Halloween costumes.

100 costumes for one kid is absolutely ridiculous.
 
2014-05-10 12:57:24 PM  
The other children are not "confused." They probably don't give a shiat. This is all about the parents.
 
2014-05-10 12:57:44 PM  
Mom is an AW and puts the kid up to it.
 
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