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(New York Daily News)   Not only could Kindergarteners one day face misdemeanor charges under proposed California bullying law, but it will be on their PERMANENT RECORD   (nydailynews.com) divider line 54
    More: Stupid, misdemeanor charges, Daily Breeze, kindergarteners  
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1970 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 May 2014 at 11:42 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



54 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-05-10 10:28:11 AM  
Oh yeah?

Well, don't get so distressed...

Did I happen to mention that I'm impressed?

/1 1 1 cause you left me
 
2014-05-10 11:45:21 AM  
Well I hope they get tasered and their dogs shot too!
 
2014-05-10 11:45:26 AM  
Jesus. Pretty soon we'll be arresting 3 year olds for thought crimes. We piddle, twiddle and resolve; not one damn thing do we SOLVE.

/ I say VOTE YES; vote for independance...
 
2014-05-10 11:45:39 AM  
I don't understand this fear of something being on your "permanent record".  I don't even know what this "record" consists of.  I know it's not like a police record.  Isn't it just a file of things about you through high school?  No one after High School will even know about it.  Do Universities access these records?
 
2014-05-10 11:46:36 AM  
If I were a bully and I knew about this kind of punishment, I would actually use it to my advantage. I'd get other kids in trouble while I play the little innocent witness to their "crimes". You know how easy it is to PIN blame on someone, especially when your target's just a kid who can't really speak up for him/herself.

I'm pretty sure other kids can come up with more sinister plans than I do. This is just a pretty dumb anti-bullying act.
 
2014-05-10 11:50:06 AM  

oukewldave: I don't understand this fear of something being on your "permanent record".  I don't even know what this "record" consists of.  I know it's not like a police record.  Isn't it just a file of things about you through high school?  No one after High School will even know about it.  Do Universities access these records?


With all the wussification going on, I would not be surprised to find that your school records are incorporated with NSA files and any other files that can classified as needed in the not to distant future.  It's for the children, don't cha know.
 
2014-05-10 11:50:22 AM  
Well, that kid Johnny, who in kindergarten bit my arm hard enough to draw blood, did turn out to be a bad egg once grown.

/stupid knee-jerk non-solution
 
2014-05-10 11:50:23 AM  
If thats what it takes to get parents of there fat asses and deal with there snowflakes.
 
2014-05-10 11:50:27 AM  

jake_lex: Oh yeah?

Well, don't get so distressed...

Did I happen to mention that I'm impressed?

/1 1 1 cause you left me


Dammit! Too late..........
 
2014-05-10 11:51:57 AM  

stuffy: If thats what it takes to get parents of there fat asses and deal with there snowflakes.


...
 
2014-05-10 11:53:12 AM  
OK I'm not trying to sound bitter and harsh but some kids/people will always have it wired into them that intimidation of others is the way to get respect and power. Wouldn't it be more effective to teach people not to be bullied?  Fines, shaming, and pink t-shirts aren't going to deter some people. Teach our kids to stand up for them selves, and realize that sometimes the only message that a bully understands is defiance or physical retaliation.
 
2014-05-10 11:53:19 AM  
This goes against the roots of what America is. My great grandfather was giving atomic wedgies
 
2014-05-10 11:53:26 AM  

oukewldave: I don't understand this fear of something being on your "permanent record".  I don't even know what this "record" consists of.  I know it's not like a police record.  Isn't it just a file of things about you through high school?  No one after High School will even know about it.  Do Universities access these records?


What part about "Permanent Record" don't you understand? It follows you around forever.

Remember that time your second grade teacher, Ms. Smith, docked you 7 points on your theses on Spider-Man? That can be brought up as evidence of your complicity in a bombing carried out by a spider cult or whatever.

/ I'm totally serious; especially if you ever run for public office or become a police officer

// if you become a police officer and somebody can prove that you stole a stick of gum when you were 4; that can be brought up at trial when you are 45
 
2014-05-10 11:53:49 AM  
Thats messed up. How else can they get a job as a cop when they grow up??
 
2014-05-10 11:57:57 AM  

jake_lex: Oh yeah?

Well, don't get so distressed...

Did I happen to mention that I'm impressed?

/1 1 1 cause you left me



2 2 2 for my family
 
2014-05-10 11:59:57 AM  

jake_lex: Oh yeah?

Well, don't get so distressed...

Did I happen to mention that I'm impressed?

/1 1 1 cause you left me


Let me go ou....,
Dammit
 
2014-05-10 12:02:58 PM  
The Carson City Council gave preliminary approval this week to an ordinance that would target anyone from kindergarten to age 25 who makes another person feel "terrorized, frightened, intimidated, threatened, harassed or molested" with no legitimate purpose.

Okay, as long as I can make them feel terrorized, frightened, intimidated, threatened, harassed or molested when it serves a legitimate purpose, like keeping them off my lawn, being cruel to animals, and other times when it is necessary to make people feel terrorized, frightened, intimidated, threatened, harassed and molested.

Also, it gives a fine for the first couple times little Bubba or Susie arsewad get caught being arsewads, and there's a hearing for anyone under 14 being tagged for potential charges.
 
2014-05-10 12:08:49 PM  
As you know, Bart, one day your permanent record will disqualify you from all but the hottest and noisiest jobs.
cdn.pastemagazine.com
 
2014-05-10 12:08:50 PM  

oukewldave: I don't understand this fear of something being on your "permanent record".  I don't even know what this "record" consists of.  I know it's not like a police record.  Isn't it just a file of things about you through high school?  No one after High School will even know about it.  Do Universities access these records?


It's what administrators and teachers have been threatening children with for decades.  There really isn't a "Permanent Record" to speak of, at least not in this context.

I was told my mocking rendition of the Pledge of Allegiance as well as the time i was accused of "insiting a riot" in the cafeteria in 4th grade would be on my permanent record.  They don't even keep files for longer than five years.

These days, there's a digital footprint, but that's not anything official.
 
2014-05-10 12:11:13 PM  
Homer: I need another extension on my mortgage payments.
Bank Manager: I understand that Mr. Simpson, but according to our computer, your credit history is... not good. It says here that you've been pre-declined for every major credit card. It also says that you once grabbed a dog by the hind legs and pushed him around like a vacuum cleaner.
Homer: That was in the third grade!
Bank Manager: Yeah, well, it all goes on your permanent record.
 
2014-05-10 12:18:40 PM  
California law?  Oh, that's right subby, you're referring to some sort of civil ordinance being considered by a town under 100,000 in population.  You're, of course, not referring to any law being considered at any other level in any other county or in any other state.  But crafting the headline the way you did, increases the OOOOH BOOGITY BOOGITY factor (and also insures a higher comment count).

Now, as to Carson, California itself.  This town of 93,000+, nestled between Compton and Long Beach, has one of the higher crime rates in California and is only outdone by approximately 19% of the nation.  So, maybe the city fathers (and mothers) believe they need to take a strong stand against crime.  But criminalizing and perpetuating acts of kids under 12 or 13 seems a bit harsh.  But, it's their city and they can do what they want.
 
m00
2014-05-10 12:32:00 PM  
media.comicbook.com
 
2014-05-10 12:36:50 PM  

dennysgod: jake_lex: Oh yeah?

Well, don't get so distressed...

Did I happen to mention that I'm impressed?

/1 1 1 cause you left me


2 2 2 for my family



3 3 3 for my heartache
 
2014-05-10 12:43:27 PM  
I forgot what eight was for...
 
2014-05-10 12:50:02 PM  
I think that's awesome.
Having a criminal record at 4 years of age will keep you from getting a decent education and a decent job, and you'll be begging WalMart to hire you for $6.25/hr so the job creators can hire more of your kind.
 
2014-05-10 12:50:34 PM  

stuffy: If thats what it takes to get parents of there fat asses and deal with

them there snowflakes.

FTFY
 
2014-05-10 12:52:19 PM  

stuffy: If thats what it takes to get parents of there

thar fat asses and deal with therethem snowflakes.
 
m00
2014-05-10 12:58:55 PM  

hitmanric: OK I'm not trying to sound bitter and harsh but some kids/people will always have it wired into them that intimidation of others is the way to get respect and power. Wouldn't it be more effective to teach people not to be bullied?  Fines, shaming, and pink t-shirts aren't going to deter some people. Teach our kids to stand up for them selves, and realize that sometimes the only message that a bully understands is defiance or physical retaliation.


I have a concurring opinion, but with some differences.

I think punishing a kid that young for bullying is basically bullying them -- it's teaching them that bullying is something you do when you can get away with it because you are in a position of supreme authority. This is how sociopath CEOs are made.

You need to take a kid like that and gently teach him that all bullying is wrong. But I guess that takes time and effort, and it's much easier to put a big red X on his record.
 
pla
2014-05-10 01:09:47 PM  
Funny, really, how one of the most liberal states in the US has the single most draconian judicial system (minus capital punishment, of course).
 
2014-05-10 01:22:55 PM  

pla: Funny, really, how one of the most liberal states in the US has the single most draconian judicial system (minus capital punishment, of course).


Just because you call yourself something, doesn't mean you are. Mostly cause 'liberal' sounds better than 'authoritarian socialist.'
 
2014-05-10 01:25:45 PM  
Let's sterilize the schools so that kids have no stress until they get into the job market. Then let them get sympathy for having to take valium to deal with real life.
 
2014-05-10 01:33:13 PM  
Good, now we can track psychopaths.
 
2014-05-10 01:36:16 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: Good, now we can track psychopaths.


Like i said..then where will they get the next generation of cops from?
 
2014-05-10 01:40:06 PM  
incredibly stupid idea

YOU try defining exactly what bullying is and where the lines are drawn

kids play, they tease, sometimes they don't even know they're hurting someone's feelings

this is all a natural part of growing up, how about parents installing good values instead
 
2014-05-10 02:03:01 PM  
You know who else liked to keep meticulous, permanent records of the entire populous?

Yes, every despot ever.
 
2014-05-10 02:04:19 PM  

hitmanric: OK I'm not trying to sound bitter and harsh but some kids/people will always have it wired into them that intimidation of others is the way to get respect and power. Wouldn't it be more effective to teach people not to be bullied? Fines, shaming, and pink t-shirts aren't going to deter some people. Teach our kids to stand up for them selves, and realize that sometimes the only message that a bully understands is defiance or physical retaliation.


I'd say that attacking the issue from both ends would be good.  Many of the bullies I grew up with came from broken homes: alcoholic parent(s), abuse, dysfunctional marriage / divorce, mental illness of a parent and so on.  They're probably lashing out.  Those kids could probably use some help.

As for teaching kids not to be bullied, you could build their confidence and teach them proper situational behavior, but dealing with non-conformity might be difficult due to political correctness.  There is also the question as to what is "non-conformity".

In an earlier thread about bullying, one Farker said that his district had very intense counseling for kids displaying anti-social behavior.  They supposedly pulled them out of the school and put them into a special program to deal with their issues.  In the case of one bully this Farker knew, after a couple of years, he is reintegrated and ends up being one of the best students in class.
 
2014-05-10 02:04:31 PM  
lgm.cl
 
2014-05-10 02:22:14 PM  

jake_lex: Oh yeah?

Well, don't get so distressed...

Did I happen to mention that I'm impressed?

/1 1 1 cause you left me


this. 1000x this. day after day this.
 
pla
2014-05-10 02:29:03 PM  
Dinjiin : Many of the bullies I grew up with came from broken homes: alcoholic parent(s), abuse, dysfunctional marriage / divorce, mental illness of a parent and so on. They're probably lashing out. Those kids could probably use some help.

You touch on the real problem here - Bullies don't magically back down when challenged, they got that way as a well-honed survival mechanism in their less than stellar home life. Standing up to a bully gives him something to actually prove, rather than just the default of hurling random abuse at whatever proves convenient at the moment.

Furthermore, the Hollywood ideal of actually standing up to a bully by fighting him will get you seriously, seriously hurt. Bullies don't secretly count as pussies who like pissing on other people; they survive by knowing how to take a blow and how to dish one out when they get the chance. Fighting a bully will leave you a crumpled bleeding heap on the pavement. I counted as one of those dumbasses that would stand up to bullies. It generally got me their full attention (in a bad way), and not once did I actually "win" against them.


You'll notice I don't have a good positive message on how to deal with this. At best, I would say try separating them from the general school population to limit their damage to only beating on each other. In our modern "Every child is a beautiful snowflake who can all become rocket surgeons", however, the schools would view that approach as nothing short of an abomination.
 
2014-05-10 02:30:31 PM  

Hella Fark: incredibly stupid idea

YOU try defining exactly what bullying is and where the lines are drawn

kids play, they tease, sometimes they don't even know they're hurting someone's feelings


There is a fair bit of literature in the mental health field regarding the sliding scale between teasing and bulling.  However, one specific differential between teasing and bullying is the pathological nature of the behavior.  Bullies tend to use every open opportunity available to them to torment their victims.  Teasing tends to be much more transient in nature.  Also, there is often a significant increase in the severity of the behavior when bullying, with actions moving beyond shaming to actual harming.

Remembering my own childhood, it was fairly easy to pick out the bullies from the rest.  For one thing, I don't recall many people falling in between being teasers and bullies - you tended to be one or the other.  So I think lines can be drawn, and they'll be fairly black and white.
 
2014-05-10 03:09:26 PM  
Kids can't handle the banter.
 
2014-05-10 03:20:52 PM  

pla: Dinjiin : Many of the bullies I grew up with came from broken homes: alcoholic parent(s), abuse, dysfunctional marriage / divorce, mental illness of a parent and so on. They're probably lashing out. Those kids could probably use some help.

You touch on the real problem here - Bullies don't magically back down when challenged, they got that way as a well-honed survival mechanism in their less than stellar home life. Standing up to a bully gives him something to actually prove, rather than just the default of hurling random abuse at whatever proves convenient at the moment.

Furthermore, the Hollywood ideal of actually standing up to a bully by fighting him will get you seriously, seriously hurt. Bullies don't secretly count as pussies who like pissing on other people; they survive by knowing how to take a blow and how to dish one out when they get the chance. Fighting a bully will leave you a crumpled bleeding heap on the pavement. I counted as one of those dumbasses that would stand up to bullies. It generally got me their full attention (in a bad way), and not once did I actually "win" against them.


You'll notice I don't have a good positive message on how to deal with this. At best, I would say try separating them from the general school population to limit their damage to only beating on each other. In our modern "Every child is a beautiful snowflake who can all become rocket surgeons", however, the schools would view that approach as nothing short of an abomination.


You know, you could have actually learned how to fight instead of letting everyone use your face to toughen their knuckles on.

/was the quiet kid who took taekwondo from an early age
//still remembers look of absolute shock on bully's face after being hook kicked in the face and dropped.
 
2014-05-10 03:26:22 PM  

Dinjiin: Hella Fark: incredibly stupid idea

YOU try defining exactly what bullying is and where the lines are drawn

kids play, they tease, sometimes they don't even know they're hurting someone's feelings

There is a fair bit of literature in the mental health field regarding the sliding scale between teasing and bulling.  However, one specific differential between teasing and bullying is the pathological nature of the behavior.  Bullies tend to use every open opportunity available to them to torment their victims.  Teasing tends to be much more transient in nature.  Also, there is often a significant increase in the severity of the behavior when bullying, with actions moving beyond shaming to actual harming.

Remembering my own childhood, it was fairly easy to pick out the bullies from the rest.  For one thing, I don't recall many people falling in between being teasers and bullies - you tended to be one or the other.  So I think lines can be drawn, and they'll be fairly black and white.


I've always believed there very little that is truly black and white. I'm gonna guess there are quite a few kids that are targets from a schoolyard bully where they themselves start to bully an even easier target just to try and reclaim any sense of self-esteem stripped from them.
 
2014-05-10 03:44:13 PM  
There is no "permanent record"..

Who still even threatens with that.
 
2014-05-10 03:55:12 PM  
I was a bit small for my age in kindergarten so some kid bullied me for awhile . Our teacher pretty much ignored the whole thing even when I mentioned it to her . She suggested that I just suck it up and deal with it . So after awhile of getting nowhere I decided to "deal with it" (not so much in the way our teacher expected) . When I got revenge on that bully you would have thought she was going to make a federal case out of it .....That kid never messed with me again .
 
2014-05-10 04:25:06 PM  

Gentoolive: There is no "permanent record"..

Who still even threatens with that.


Dean Wormer?
 
2014-05-10 05:06:24 PM  
See Home School discrimination article just above`
 
2014-05-10 05:22:13 PM  
Well, singling out and punishing bullies and even their parents is an important step, but aside from military/cop/well-connected families, my memory of bullies was that their families were usually dirt poor. (Most via increasingly bad decisions, but that's not the issue here.) A $100-200 fine on each act would devastate them in the very unlikely event that it ever was paid, and wasn't just used to tack on eternal late fees, tow fees, and take their kids away to further marginalize the parents.

Even if this isn't just a money squeeze, it's a deeply flawed way to deal with bullying that won't accomplish anything, and the only reaction parents will have is probably to beat them harder, since the real problem is that they have no idea how to be parents in the first place.

Then you have the issue that a large number of adults -- including school staff -- are bullies themselves, and actually stick up for schoolyard tough guys & gals, preferring to punish the weak instead. I expect this to be misused just as much as zero-tolerance or any other anti-bullying tactic.
 
2014-05-10 05:30:51 PM  

oukewldave: I don't understand this fear of something being on your "permanent record".  I don't even know what this "record" consists of.  I know it's not like a police record.  Isn't it just a file of things about you through high school?  No one after High School will even know about it.  Do Universities access these records?


In the hands of a psychopath with a grudge in administration, your childhood can be sidelined when everyone around you is warned that you're a hooligan nutcase, and you're sent to alternative ed with the other dropouts, even if you've only acted out once or never done anything to warrant it at all. People are extremely biased about their interactions with strangers by what they've heard beforehand, plenty of research has proven that. That's ruined bright futures, all in the name of stroking one asshole's ego.
 
2014-05-10 05:45:56 PM  
I have a little demon that lives at my house.  He's my demon and you can't begin to understand how much I love him.  He's pretty severely damaged from bio-family abuse, but his survival skills are top-notch.  He's a scrawny runt with a huge chip on his shoulder, and we spend a lot of time warning others to never turn their back on him.  Especially if they have just made him feel anything other than ok.

When he escalated at school this year, we tried to get an intervention early, but the school kept says 'boys will be boys' or 'they were just roughhousing.'  So when we reported that he was being bullied, they kept insisting that we were over reacting.  When he finally lost all control, the teachers and parents of the other kid wanted him arrested, but the school had to make other arrangements, only because we had a paper trail, going back months, of begging for help.  Nothing like a big, fat, "I told you so" to make schools look bad.

If he goes back next year, the school has promised to take our concerns more seriously.  They better.
 
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