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(Anchorage Daily News)   If a gun shop leaves a homeless man unattended and finds a rifle missing with $200 left on the counter, tells the police it was stolen but tells the bank it was a sale, who gets sued when the homeless man shoots a random stranger? Show your work   (adn.com) divider line 158
    More: Fail, Fred Meyer, target shooting, paperwork, Alaska Supreme Court, rifles, tort law, homeless, shootings  
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6732 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 May 2014 at 2:38 PM (31 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



158 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-05-10 06:03:22 AM  

anuran: FTA:

 Lowy said a previous audit of Rayco Sales found 200 guns missing from the inventory.

That's beyond suspicious


Didn't the ATF just shut down a store in NY that was missing about this many guns?  With far, far higher volume?
 
2014-05-10 07:23:33 AM  

Kuta: Am I the only one thinking this happens (gun left on counter, owner goes out of sight to do paperwork, customer leaves cash and takes off, no surveillance camera video) with some relative frequency?

The issue is that the guy who bought the gun was a lunatic and went and killed someone in short order. The laws are there for a reason. Coxe (the vendor) was not stupid. He was criminally and willfully negligent.


That's my take on the story.  Usually nothing bad seems to come of Coxe's criminality, alas this time reality caught up with him.  Close him down, lock him up and give his assets to the family of the dead.
 
2014-05-10 09:57:41 AM  

ArkAngel: No straw sale. Everyone involved agrees the guy got the gun from that shop. The question is whether he stole it and left money or the place sold it to him


Yeah, and the security system error makes me suspect the latter.

spiritplumber: In fairness, I've done this with a shopping cart (we needed to get some truck batteries down a long pier, and there were no carts available, so we had to improvise).


Huh?  Done what?

Perhaps you're referring to what I did once:  Pulled the failed battery out of the car and loaded it in a nearby shopping cart, wheeled it across the street to get a replacement and when I was done the cart ended up in the corral of the shopping center it started from.  They lost the use of their cart for maybe half an hour at a slow time of day--no harm done.
 
2014-05-10 11:41:07 AM  

Langdon_777: Kuta: Am I the only one thinking this happens (gun left on counter, owner goes out of sight to do paperwork, customer leaves cash and takes off, no surveillance camera video) with some relative frequency?

The issue is that the guy who bought the gun was a lunatic and went and killed someone in short order. The laws are there for a reason. Coxe (the vendor) was not stupid. He was criminally and willfully negligent.

That's my take on the story.  Usually nothing bad seems to come of Coxe's criminality, alas this time reality caught up with him.  Close him down, lock him up and give his assets to the family of the dead.


Though now that I have actually read more comments - maybe he did report it (I hope it was that day and the day after the murder...)
 
2014-05-10 11:42:19 AM  
Though now that I have actually read more comments - maybe he did report it (I hope it was that day and NOT the day after the murder...)

/oops missed a vital word.
 
2014-05-10 02:18:33 PM  

Firethorn: Didn't the ATF just shut down a store in NY that was missing about this many guns? With far, far higher volume?


Well 'missing' doesn't automatically the gun got lost or sold out the back door.  It means when checked the they didn't have the exact form on hand ready to go for the ATF.  Gun dealers are required to keep every single form 4473 that is filled out on file for 20 YEARS.  That can very easily end up being a SIGNIFICANT amount of paper.

Fun story: a while back I had to pawn a rather pricey SIG Sauer handgun due to some personal financial troubles.  Took me three months to pay it down only to have the pistol CONFISCATED when I went to go get it out of pawn.  Turns out somewhere in the chain of life of that handgun (I bought it used) a gun shop in Texas had it in it's custody, but lost the form 4473.  So the ATF flagged serial number.  When every a gun gets pawned the shop owner will check with check with the police department who checks with the ATF to see if the serial number had been flagged as stolen or used in a crime.  So when it showed up flagged the cops came and got it.

I never ended up getting my Sig back.  Although the ATF finally cleared the sealer number as being 'missing' the cops held onto it for a while.  And then the damn pawn shop decided to pull a bit of a fast one on me.  Claim that I never came it got it out of pawn.  Even though it was the police that had it in their possession for months I still paid the bill on it.
 
2014-05-10 08:08:16 PM  

JuggleGeek: First  you say :
Hermione_Granger: Therefore the store did the right thing in reporting what happened to the police.

Then you say:
Hermione_Granger: There's nothing to indicate that they reported it stolen and filed an insurance claim so there's no fraud.

You are claiming both sides.  You claim the did report it to the police, and that they did not report it stolen.

They did the right thing in reporting it to the police, but there is nothing to indicate that they reported it stolen?  Seems a bit messed up.  Maybe they didn't report it right away, but they did when it was convenient?"

This sounds a lot like "They didn't report it stolen at the time, because the guy gave them money.  But now that he shot someone with the gun that the sold him illegally, they are claiming he stole it".

Hermione_Granger: If I take a pillow from Walmart and leave $10 on the counter to cover the cost but don't go through the registers or check out with a cashier, is Walmart then responsible if I go out and smother somebody to death with the pillow?

Are there laws about who Walmart is allowed to sell a pillow to?  Are you legally not allowed to have a pillow?  Is your theft of the pillow a BS ploy to skip around a background check?


Actually I wasn't claiming both sides. I meant, they did report it stolen to the police, but they did not report it stolen to an insurance company, if they have one, which they should, right?

Sorry about that. Re-reading what I wrote, it wasn't very succinct.
 
2014-05-11 03:17:58 AM  

Noishkel: Even though it was the police that had it in their possession for months I still paid the bill on it.


That, my friend, is what receipts are for.  Sorry for your loss though.

As for the 4473's, that's what electronic record systems, or at least the 'bound book' is for.
 
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