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(Alaska Dispatch News)   If a gun shop leaves a homeless man unattended and finds a rifle missing with $200 left on the counter, tells the police it was stolen but tells the bank it was a sale, who gets sued when the homeless man shoots a random stranger? Show your work   (adn.com ) divider line
    More: Fail, Fred Meyer, target shooting, paperwork, Alaska Supreme Court, rifles, tort law, homeless, shootings  
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6787 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 May 2014 at 2:38 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-09 04:53:38 PM  

redmid17: LazyMedia: Something the plaintiff's lawyer said is bullshiat, I'm thinking.

What Rayco also didn't do was conduct a federally required background check that's supposed to be done before a firearm can be sold. Coday, with a history of drug abuse and erratic behavior, was a fugitive from the Lower 48 who'd arrived in Alaska not long before the 2006 killing.

"He never would have passed a background check," Choate said.

I'm not sure he wouldn't have. They don't check to see if you have outstanding warrants, just whether you're a convicted felon. You can abuse all the drugs and commit as many misdemeanors as you like without losing the ability to buy a gun. You can be bughouse crazy, too, as long as you've never been involuntarily committed.

Probably what happened is old bugnuts TOLD the gun dealer that he couldn't pass a background check, so he sold him the gun and made up the ridiculous "I turned my back" story. But he probably would have passed if he's not a felon. TFA is unclear on that point.

Hmmmmm:
http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms/firearms-industry/firearms-how-i de ntify-prohibited-persons

The Gun Control Act (GCA) makes it unlawful for certain categories of persons to ship, transport, receive, or possess firearms. 18 USC 922(g). Transfers of firearms to any such prohibited persons are also unlawful. 18 USC 922(d).

These categories include any person:
Under indictment or information in any court for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
who is a fugitive from justice;
who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance;
who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;
who is an illegal alien;
who has been discharged from the military under dishonorable conditions;
who has renounced his or her United States citizenship;
who is subject to a court order restraining the person from harassin ...


Oh, I appear to have been talking out of my ass again. I didn't know the list of who can't buy a gun was so comprehensive. Tyranny!
 
2014-05-09 04:54:48 PM  

DarkVader: And the store owner reported the gun as stolen.


i can't seem to find this backed up anywhere. i've seen plenty of places where he said it was stolen after the shooting, but no reports. i have seen that the store owner said two different surveillance systems failed to catch anything
 
2014-05-09 04:58:30 PM  

sprawl15: i can't seem to find this backed up anywhere.


disregard, forgot to scroll up
 
2014-05-09 05:01:41 PM  

Tom_Slick: Pathman: Easy- you go after the deep pockets and hell yes they're liable.


Wrongful death,  negligence + punitive damages....

but this happened back in 2006?  have to wonder what the statute of limitations is on such a case.

usually it's 2-3 years for personal injuries, 1-2 for wrongful death and a little longer for malpractice cases.
sometimes you have provisions that allow for discovery of the wrong -for example a doctoroperates on you and screws up but you don't discover it for 3 years - you generally get another year.  but even then the outer limit isn't generally anything approaching 8 years.

Remember the statute clock only applies to filing the lawsuit, so for example if wrongful death was filed 1 year later, then courts decided it couldn't go to trial until after the the murder trial, the murder trial takes 3-4 years because of motions, psyche evaluations etc, then the new trial starts with more motions, mediation etc. those 8 years can go by fast.


what about repose?  (i'm not a lawyer)
does a 4 year statute of repose on, for example, medical malpractice toll while the trial sits in scheduling?

i suppose it would have to otherwise that would be unbelievably unfair.
 
2014-05-09 05:06:45 PM  
what a  clusterfark.   The gunshop owner screwed up all he had to do is pocket the $200 and report the gun stolen and he would probably be in the clear.   But he banked it as  sale which in all likely hood screws him over in court and he knows it which is why he was trying to get the case thrown out before it went to trial.
 
2014-05-09 05:07:26 PM  

LazyMedia: Oh, I appear to have been talking out of my ass again. I didn't know the list of who can't buy a gun was so comprehensive. Tyranny!


Well no... that's not tyranny any more than depriving a felon of his right to free movement is tyranny.
 
2014-05-09 05:09:42 PM  
2 People should end up in jail here, the shooter and the guy that sold the gun.

As soon as he deposited that money as a sale he entered into that transaction.

I'd also like to hear from local law enforcement on this. When he called the police to say the gun was stolen did he also tell the police that money was left on the counter? If yes, why would that have not ended up in evidence instead of his bank account? If no, could they also get this a-hole on obstruction of justice/witholding evidence?
 
2014-05-09 05:11:35 PM  

grimlock1972: what a  clusterfark.   The gunshop owner screwed up all he had to do is pocket the $200 and report the gun stolen and he would probably be in the clear.   But he banked it as  sale which in all likely hood screws him over in court and he knows it which is why he was trying to get the case thrown out before it went to trial.


Well another employee found the $200, so it wasn't just the bank manager who knew, and a police officer told him to bank the $200 (likely because the crime would likely not be solved and the money was useless as evidence).
 
2014-05-09 05:18:18 PM  

redmid17: grimlock1972: what a  clusterfark.   The gunshop owner screwed up all he had to do is pocket the $200 and report the gun stolen and he would probably be in the clear.   But he banked it as  sale which in all likely hood screws him over in court and he knows it which is why he was trying to get the case thrown out before it went to trial.

Well another employee found the $200, so it wasn't just the bank manager who knew, and a police officer told him to bank the $200 (likely because the crime would likely not be solved and the money was useless as evidence).


Just because tells you to do something does not necessarily make it the right course of action, Cops while generally good at enforcing the laws are usually not experts on all parts of it.

The gun shop owner better hope he can ID the cop and get the cop to testify that he told him to do what he did.

Still just the fact he left an unsecured gun where it could be walked off with could qualify as negligence.

I feel the owner will lose the lawsuit.
 
2014-05-09 05:19:27 PM  

Enemabag Jones: Why would a homeless man want a rifle?

They are hard to hide.

It makes no sense.


.22 Long Rifle is the size of the round.  It's a target pistol he bought.
 
2014-05-09 05:24:27 PM  

grimlock1972: redmid17: grimlock1972: what a  clusterfark.   The gunshop owner screwed up all he had to do is pocket the $200 and report the gun stolen and he would probably be in the clear.   But he banked it as  sale which in all likely hood screws him over in court and he knows it which is why he was trying to get the case thrown out before it went to trial.

Well another employee found the $200, so it wasn't just the bank manager who knew, and a police officer told him to bank the $200 (likely because the crime would likely not be solved and the money was useless as evidence).

Just because tells you to do something does not necessarily make it the right course of action, Cops while generally good at enforcing the laws are usually not experts on all parts of it.

The gun shop owner better hope he can ID the cop and get the cop to testify that he told him to do what he did.

Still just the fact he left an unsecured gun where it could be walked off with could qualify as negligence.

I feel the owner will lose the lawsuit.


Those are in the facts of the case, so I doubt it's in dispute. However I tend to agree that walking off with a gun in the hands of a customer is negligent.
 
2014-05-09 05:26:57 PM  

GirlScoutSniper: Enemabag Jones: Why would a homeless man want a rifle?

They are hard to hide.

It makes no sense.

.22 Long Rifle is the size of the round.  It's a target pistol he bought.


No actually the article says he had a rifle.  Did you read that somewhere else?  You're right about .22 LR or Long Rifle.  It's a very common round that can be fired  both in some pistols and some rifles.  It's also rather low powered.  Really used for 'plinking' or hunting very very small game.  Squirrels for instance.  Still fully capable of being lethal but you have to hit someone in the head or in the heart to have a significant chance of lethality.
 
2014-05-09 05:35:47 PM  

Noishkel: GirlScoutSniper: Enemabag Jones: Why would a homeless man want a rifle?

They are hard to hide.

It makes no sense.

.22 Long Rifle is the size of the round.  It's a target pistol he bought.

No actually the article says he had a rifle.


Ah... I don't know how I got it into my head it was a target pistol, even though, after rereading, I see it says "rifle" I don't know how many times!  Thanks.
 
2014-05-09 05:38:03 PM  
Hey... has anyone read the Wikipedia page for this Jason Coday guy?  He was already a fugitive on the run when he stole the rifle.  Apparently he had skipped town on a collection of charges.  One of them being illegal weapons possession.  Even better is that when he lose in the killing of this guy in Alaska... he HEAD BUTTED his defense attorney!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Coday
 
2014-05-09 05:39:00 PM  

GirlScoutSniper: Ah... I don't know how I got it into my head it was a target pistol, even though, after rereading, I see it says "rifle" I don't know how many times! Thanks.


*dips an invisible cowboy hat.*  No worries.
 
2014-05-09 05:39:05 PM  

Ow! That was my feelings!: Because People in power are Stupid: [optimalhumanmodulation.files.wordpress.com image 209x111]

Pffft...9mm...


And an Uzi, too. She's lucky if she'shiatting the air.
 
2014-05-09 05:39:42 PM  
Ok...

Anyway.
 
2014-05-09 05:41:36 PM  
Who gets sued? Obama obviously.  Thanks Obama!
 
2014-05-09 05:44:10 PM  

ElLoco: Ow! That was my feelings!: Because People in power are Stupid: [optimalhumanmodulation.files.wordpress.com image 209x111]

Pffft...9mm...

And an Uzi, too. She's lucky if she'shiatting the air.


Those aren't Uzi's.  They're MACs.

http://world.guns.ru/smg/usa/ingram-mac-m10-and-m11-e.html
 
2014-05-09 05:46:18 PM  

voran: Who gets sued? Obama obviously.  Thanks Obama!


I'm ok with this.
 
2014-05-09 05:54:01 PM  

Noishkel: ElLoco: Ow! That was my feelings!: Because People in power are Stupid: [optimalhumanmodulation.files.wordpress.com image 209x111]

Pffft...9mm...

And an Uzi, too. She's lucky if she'shiatting the air.

Those aren't Uzi's.  They're MACs.

http://world.guns.ru/smg/usa/ingram-mac-m10-and-m11-e.html


Doh. I knew that, hence the filterated accuracy comment. Had the wife on the cell phone and my parents on another trying to coordinate a meeting in Arlington. I could have typed 'shotguns' and wouldn't have noticed at the time. :(
 
2014-05-09 05:59:13 PM  

ArkAngel: dr_blasto: No lawsuit.

BATFE busts them for straw sale. FBI follows up with fraud.

Police taze everyone involved.

No straw sale. Everyone involved agrees the guy got the gun from that shop. The question is whether he stole it and left money or the place sold it to him


If the gun had a price tag and he paid the labeled price plus taxes, its hard to argue theft. Clearly the intent of both parties was a sale. If the store's "system" failed to put controls on the sale to gather required information before the sale, well, that's a fault on the store.

No different than the unmanned vegetable cart on the side of the road with prices posted and a bucket for the money. That's the seller's design, not the buyers design.
 
2014-05-09 06:01:05 PM  

itsaidwhat: ArkAngel: dr_blasto: No lawsuit.

BATFE busts them for straw sale. FBI follows up with fraud.

Police taze everyone involved.

No straw sale. Everyone involved agrees the guy got the gun from that shop. The question is whether he stole it and left money or the place sold it to him

If the gun had a price tag and he paid the labeled price plus taxes, its hard to argue theft. Clearly the intent of both parties was a sale. If the store's "system" failed to put controls on the sale to gather required information before the sale, well, that's a fault on the store.

No different than the unmanned vegetable cart on the side of the road with prices posted and a bucket for the money. That's the seller's design, not the buyers design.


The problem being that you need to fill out a 4473 before you can leave the gun store AND no one can prove that the guy left the $200. It was cash, the video cameras weren't working, and no one else was in the room with him.
 
2014-05-09 06:04:38 PM  
Does it happen to mention anywhere how a homeless person was able to have $200 in cash...?
 
2014-05-09 06:10:26 PM  
Gun stores don't just leave guns sitting out with homeless people.  When your story is "sorry, my bad, I left a gun with the homeless guy, and he gave me money, and there is no video of it despite my security system", it makes it very difficult to believe your BS.
 
2014-05-09 06:13:54 PM  
Something is fishy about this story.  Kim could see Russia from his house but couldn't see the guy sneaking up behind him with a rifle in broad daylight on a busy street?
 
2014-05-09 06:19:15 PM  
Sounds like a false flag to distract us from zombie Nazi Lenin.
 
2014-05-09 06:22:52 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: I don't get it. Where were the good guys with the guns to stop the bad guy with the gun?


Florida.
 
2014-05-09 06:24:15 PM  

LazyMedia: I'm not sure he wouldn't have. They don't check to see if you have outstanding warrants, just whether you're a convicted felon. You can abuse all the drugs and commit as many misdemeanors as you like without losing the ability to buy a gun. You can be bughouse crazy, too, as long as you've never been involuntarily committed.


Being a fugitive is also a disqualifier.

netweavr: Wow the store owner's story sounds like the kind of bullshiat a 5 year old would come up with.


No kidding.

I find the idea of a homeless person who can't pass a background check actually paying for a handgun when he's stealing it unbelievable.  Well, unless he's also severely mentally ill in a very specific way.

Instead I think it's far more likely that the store owner sold the gun to him for cash off the books, in which case he's a dumbass for depositing the money.

redmid17: Let's check the case!

II. FACTS AND PROCEEDINGS
A. Facts
[...]
Driver asked Coxe if he had sold Coday the rifle. Coxe verified the rifle was missing and then drove his truck around the neighboring area in an unsuccessful attempt to find Coday. At some point either Coxe or an employee called the Juneau Police Department. Coxe reported the rifle stolen, and on the advice of a police officer, deposited the $200 in the bank as a sale.


...On the other hand, especially if this advice was documented it completely flips my decision and chalk it up to 'the weirdness of life'.  Perhaps Coday was hoping that the money would prevent Coxe from reporting it.

As for driving around looking for the bum, I'll point out that despite being the capital of Alaska it only has a population of ~32k and there are no roads connecting it to the rest of the state.  It's not like the dude could have gone far...
 
2014-05-09 06:28:22 PM  

JuggleGeek: Gun stores don't just leave guns sitting out with homeless people.  When your story is "sorry, my bad, I left a gun with the homeless guy, and he gave me money, and there is no video of it despite my security system", it makes it very difficult to believe your BS.


Well we really don't know just how this store is set up.  My favorite shop sometimes will have a rifle on the counter on display.  They also have three to four armed sales people there at any one time.  Most gun shops keep their inventory on a shell behind the counter.  Far out of reach from someone that might just reach over, snag one, and run.  We can really only theorize how this happened.

Personally I'm betting the killer just stepped around the nearest edge and snagged the rifle while no one was looking, and moved.  In any even it's going to be a fight to prove a legitimate claim of negligence on the part of the shop owner.  Not without really good evidence to support it.  Especially in a state like Alaska.
 
2014-05-09 06:48:27 PM  

grimlock1972: The gun shop owner better hope he can ID the cop and get the cop to testify that he told him to do what he did.


Juneau has  52officers and 40 civilians.  There's a very good chance that the officer can be found, will remember the conversation, and will be willing to testify.

Noishkel: Personally I'm betting the killer just stepped around the nearest edge and snagged the rifle while no one was looking, and moved.  In any even it's going to be a fight to prove a legitimate claim of negligence on the part of the shop owner.  Not without really good evidence to support it.  Especially in a state like Alaska.


There are oddities, but he did formally report it stolen within a reasonable period of time.

JuggleGeek: Gun stores don't just leave guns sitting out with homeless people.  When your story is "sorry, my bad, I left a gun with the homeless guy, and he gave me money, and there is no video of it despite my security system", it makes it very difficult to believe your BS.


It's hard to seperate the homeless from the homed up in Alaska just by visual identification.  It's a rather harsh environment for most of the year.
 
2014-05-09 06:48:59 PM  

Danger Mouse: If the gun costs 100 dollars more than the bullet,  and the total was $110 dollars how much was the gun?


/ I know this....


Before or after the Five Fingered Discount Double-Check ?
 
2014-05-09 06:56:21 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: I don't get it. Where were the good guys with the guns to stop the bad guy with the gun?


All the good guys followed the laws that this man was avoiding.
 
2014-05-09 07:06:33 PM  
Nobody did the "leave money on the counter" BS.  This was CASH CHANGING HANDS, not some kind of honor system among thieves.

If you are going to make a straw sale you at least did right by not doing it on camera, or destroying the video footage from that day.  But don't lie to people with stuff as stupid as "I went to the back and it was gone when I came back to the counter, but $200 was there!"  Take the $200 cash that the guy gave you for an illegal gun purchase and use it for petty cash stuff in your regular life, don't put it in a bank deposit where people can examine later and ask what that extra $200 was from since it isn't on your store receipts for the day.

Let the guy take the gun, and report it stolen MUCH LATER when you are doing a monthly inventory or something and say you don't know where it went.  Or if ATF/police comes asking, look around and discover it to be lost at the point they are asking you about it.  Play stupid.  If this is your first offense you likely get to pay a fine and keep your FFL.
 
2014-05-09 07:09:40 PM  
Noishkel ,
GirlScoutSniper: Enemabag Jones: Why would a homeless man want a rifle?
They are hard to hide.
It makes no sense.
.22 Long Rifle is the size of the round. It's a target pistol he bought.
No actually the article says he had a rifle. Did you read that somewhere else? You're right about .22 LR or Long Rifle. It's a very common round that can be fired both in some pistols and some rifles. It's also rather low powered. Really used for 'plinking' or hunting very very small game. Squirrels for instance. Still fully capable of being lethal but you have to hit someone in the head or in the heart to have a significant chance of lethality.


I take it back. I am applying city logic to an Alaskan city of 30,000. He probably wanted a varmit rifle to feed himself.
 
2014-05-09 07:17:10 PM  

Enemabag Jones: I take it back. I am applying city logic to an Alaskan city of 30,000. He probably wanted a varmit rifle to feed himself.


Well no there's other news stories connected to the killed that suggest he was just a violence and crazy asshole.  He was already a fugitive as said on the wiki page about him.
 
2014-05-09 07:38:08 PM  

itsaidwhat: If the gun had a price tag and he paid the labeled price plus taxes, its hard to argue theft. Clearly the intent of both parties was a sale. If the store's "system" failed to put controls on the sale to gather required information before the sale, well, that's a fault on the store.

No different than the unmanned vegetable cart on the side of the road with prices posted and a bucket for the money. That's the seller's design, not the buyers design.


Now, I don't actually know that the price of the gun plus tax wasn't $200, but how likely is that?  It's apparently not in dispute that what was left was exactly $200.  I'd say that given the amount left, it's highly unlikely that the store owner intended to make a sale, even though the convicted murderer likely intended it to be a purchase.

And if the owner didn't intend it to be a sale, it wasn't a sale.

Now you might suggest that the owner didn't properly secure his firearms.  But keep in mind that Alaska doesn't have firearm storage laws.  The ATF has suggestions for dealers, but no requirement other than that a stolen firearm must be reported within 48 hours.  So there is no legal requirement that merchandise cannot be left out on the counter, and I have in fact been in small town gun stores where there are guns on the counter.

There is certainly no indication that a purchase could be made at this store by picking up a gun and putting money in a bucket.
 
2014-05-09 07:45:37 PM  
Other than leaving a person alone in the store, which is bad judgment but not illegal, I'm trying to figure out what the store did wrong.

Although the "customer" left money on the counter, he hadn't gone through any of the background checks or other items that would make it a legitimate transaction. Therefore the store did the right thing in reporting what happened to the police.

Unless the police requested the cash as evidence or otherwise told them that they were not entitled to the cash, then the store had no choice but to make a deposit to the bank or the employees would be stealing money from the business. Not to mention that otherwise they had no way to recoup the cost of the rifle.

There's nothing to indicate that they reported it stolen and filed an insurance claim so there's no fraud.

How is the store responsible for the actions of a thief?

If I take a pillow from Walmart and leave $10 on the counter to cover the cost but don't go through the registers or check out with a cashier, is Walmart then responsible if I go out and smother somebody to death with the pillow?

Making the dealer responsible seems like a hell of a stretch in logic to me, especially since they reported the gun being taken to the police.
 
2014-05-09 08:13:45 PM  

Hermione_Granger: Making the dealer responsible seems like a hell of a stretch in logic to me, especially since they reported the gun being taken to the police.


Well the thing is there's a major difference between civil and criminal courts.  Obviously there's no way in hell they could try to go after the dealer from a criminal charge standpoint.  But the civil courts have a lot more leeway.

I don't know if anyone really remembers this but the really first farking crazy gun lawsuit involved an incident where a teenager broke into a hope and stole a .25 pistol which he ended up using to kill someone.  Well the blood sucking lawyers backed by anti-gun groups just decoded to just sue EVERYONE.  The company that originally made the pistol had already gone out of business.  But they sued everyone else they could.  They sued the distributor that had once sold it to a store.  They used the gun store that sold it.  They even sued the school where the teacher was shot.  And sadly they actually one that case to the tune of 24 MILLION dollars.

There for a few years every time there was a fairly notable shooting incident they lawyers would try to use that tactic.  It got to the point that a Federal law was passed specifically to block these lawsuits, back in '05.
 
2014-05-09 08:21:38 PM  

cretinbob: No one, because the Second AMEN!dment


ftfy
 
2014-05-09 08:26:31 PM  

DarkVader: BumpInTheNight: EdNortonsTwin: Man steals gun, shoots someone, gets sued.

That's it.

What paper work were you doing in the back any ways?  That's the really important part of your story that's missing, the part where you left a homeless man alone with the gun 'to go do some paperwork'.

I dunno, maybe calling in the background check?

It's Alaska, lots of people look like that in Alaska.  I doubt he said he was homeless.

And it's a small town, only 32,000 people.  Doing business in a small town isn't the same as a big city, you don't always have somebody watching to make sure the customer doesn't steal anything, especially when it's a small store with nobody but the owner working.

And the store owner reported the gun as stolen.  What was he supposed to do with the $200, burn it?  He put it in the bank.

And no gun dealer is going to risk his license for someone he doesn't know, certainly not for a $200 sale.  That guy could have been undercover ATF looking to make a bust.  I'm sure there probably are some who might take a risk for a friend, but not for a stranger.

So no, the story is completely believable.  Small town business, overly trustful owner (he's probably been doing business like that for 20 years or more), and some guy walks out with the gun, dropping $200 on the counter.

Here's the owner, with a different customer:

[images.morris.com image 500x324]

Yes, the old guy.  And that customer looks kind of homeless too.


Here's a link to a different article...

http://juneauempire.com/local/2012-03-05/juneau-gun-shop-owner-heart -a k-supreme-court-case

Which has more info on the old guy.

FTA: "Lowy went on to say in court and in written briefs that two firearms and security experts testified that the guns were likely sold off the books; that ATF found Coxe violated gun laws several times in the past, including disposing of firearms with no record of sale as required by federal law; that Coxe's own employees expressed concerns to Coxe that it was too easy for someone to steal a gun from the store; and that when four guns were reported missing in rapid succession in 1993, the Juneau Police Department gave Coxe a verbal warning to increase security on his guns."

"On top of that, Lowy argues, Coxe's story is inconsistent, and that there are contradictions in his sworn testimony. For example, Lowy lists, Coxe put forth that the reason he left the future killer Jason Coday unattended in his store is because the store was busy at the time. That's not true, Lowy said."

So, it sounds like yes, this guy has a long history of shady gun deals. Sounds like he knew exactly what he was doing, made up a story that allowed him to claim he was innocent as well as letting the guy get well away before the police were called.

Your suggestion that shop owners in small towns are going to walk away and let people they don't know have the run of the store, especially a gun store, and after this guy has been warned before by police that he needs to have better security on his guns, makes you sound like a complete farking idiot.
 
2014-05-09 08:41:02 PM  
Another Responsible Gun Store Owner.
 
2014-05-09 10:22:23 PM  
FTA:

 Lowy said a previous audit of Rayco Sales found 200 guns missing from the inventory.

That's beyond suspicious
 
2014-05-10 01:12:20 AM  

iheartscotch: Alaska, huh? Then the perp is tots cray cray.

That's a tough one. The bum failed to legally purchase the gun. So, the shop's owner didn't break any laws. It sounds like the owner reported the incident to the proper authorities. But; why do you leave a customer holding your merchandise, especially something as expensive as a gun, without anybody watching him? Sounds a little fishy to me.


And then reports it as a sale to the bank?

This sounds like a gun shop owner purposely trying to circumvent the background check laws to make a sale, if you ask me.
 
2014-05-10 01:55:17 AM  
First  you say :

Hermione_Granger: Therefore the store did the right thing in reporting what happened to the police.


Then you say:

Hermione_Granger: There's nothing to indicate that they reported it stolen and filed an insurance claim so there's no fraud.


You are claiming both sides.  You claim the did report it to the police, and that they did not report it stolen.

They did the right thing in reporting it to the police, but there is nothing to indicate that they reported it stolen?  Seems a bit messed up.  Maybe they didn't report it right away, but they did when it was convenient?"

This sounds a lot like "They didn't report it stolen at the time, because the guy gave them money.  But now that he shot someone with the gun that the sold him illegally, they are claiming he stole it".

Hermione_Granger: If I take a pillow from Walmart and leave $10 on the counter to cover the cost but don't go through the registers or check out with a cashier, is Walmart then responsible if I go out and smother somebody to death with the pillow?


Are there laws about who Walmart is allowed to sell a pillow to?  Are you legally not allowed to have a pillow?  Is your theft of the pillow a BS ploy to skip around a background check?
 
2014-05-10 01:58:08 AM  

ornithopter: And then reports it as a sale to the bank?

This sounds like a gun shop owner purposely trying to circumvent the background check laws to make a sale, if you ask me.


Well that's kind of the question there.  Did they guy actually sell the rifle to the killer and just lied about it being stolen.  I'm going to say no myself.  There's no logical reason for the shop owner to have taken the risk to have sell that gun off the books at list price.  Not when he could have made the same amount of money with no legal risk.
 
2014-05-10 02:04:10 AM  

Noishkel: Well that's kind of the question there. Did they guy actually sell the rifle to the killer and just lied about it being stolen. I'm going to say no myself. There's no logical reason for the shop owner to have taken the risk to have sell that gun off the books at list price. Not when he could have made the same amount of money with no legal risk.


Apparently, at some point, he reported the gun stolen.  I'm curious exactly when that happened.

When he walked out and found the $200 laying there and the gun gone, did he call it in then, within minutes?  Or did he wait to report it as stolen for, oh, say 2 days, until after the gun had been used in a murder?

If he really wants people to believe "I didn't sell him the gun, he stole it", then that phone call to report the gun stolen should have happened pretty quick.  That doesn't make him 100% clear, but it certainly helps.  If he waited 24 hours or more to report it?  That looks very bad.  It looks like you made a side-sale and are making sure that your buyer gets a good head start.  And when your buyer, who wouldn't have been a legal buyer, uses the gun to kill someone, it looks pretty bad.

The part about selling it at list price?  The only price we know is the price he tells us.  It's not likely, of course, but he could have received $50,000 in cash.  He's not going to run to the press saying "Yeah, the homeless murderer gave me $50,000 for that gun".  His story is already fishy, lets not assume that he couldn't consider lying about it.
 
2014-05-10 02:07:51 AM  

JuggleGeek: First  you say :
Hermione_Granger: Therefore the store did the right thing in reporting what happened to the police.

Then you say:
Hermione_Granger: There's nothing to indicate that they reported it stolen and filed an insurance claim so there's no fraud.

You are claiming both sides.  You claim the did report it to the police, and that they did not report it stolen.

They did the right thing in reporting it to the police, but there is nothing to indicate that they reported it stolen?  Seems a bit messed up.  Maybe they didn't report it right away, but they did when it was convenient?"

This sounds a lot like "They didn't report it stolen at the time, because the guy gave them money.  But now that he shot someone with the gun that the sold him illegally, they are claiming he stole it".

Hermione_Granger: If I take a pillow from Walmart and leave $10 on the counter to cover the cost but don't go through the registers or check out with a cashier, is Walmart then responsible if I go out and smother somebody to death with the pillow?

Are there laws about who Walmart is allowed to sell a pillow to?  Are you legally not allowed to have a pillow?  Is your theft of the pillow a BS ploy to skip around a background check?


Well I can speak for the original poster but I think he meant that he didn't file a claim with the insurance company for the rifle.  The $200 he lost on the rifle might not be worth what it would do to his deductible if had filed a claim on it.  But insurance can be tricky that way.
 
2014-05-10 02:26:34 AM  

JuggleGeek: Apparently, at some point, he reported the gun stolen. I'm curious exactly when that happened.

When he walked out and found the $200 laying there and the gun gone, did he call it in then, within minutes? Or did he wait to report it as stolen for, oh, say 2 days, until after the gun had been used in a murder?

If he really wants people to believe "I didn't sell him the gun, he stole it", then that phone call to report the gun stolen should have happened pretty quick. That doesn't make him 100% clear, but it certainly helps. If he waited 24 hours or more to report it? That looks very bad. It looks like you made a side-sale and are making sure that your buyer gets a good head start. And when your buyer, who wouldn't have been a legal buyer, uses the gun to kill someone, it looks pretty bad.

 Well these are good questions.  But I'm still going to say that the story looks as presented.  It's a good question as to when exactly he called the police.  But the fact that it didn't specifically say that he waited for days before calling leads me to believe that he didn't wait to report it.  Don't forget that this whole incident occurred about 8 years ago.  If there was any real doubt that the story about this guy steal the gun was bogus then the dealer would have been charged.  Probably federally.  This is one of the things the ATF does.  Especially when it looks like a murder has been committed with a gun.  Any kind of major violation such as this always comes with a HEAVY (started at about 5 digits) fine as well as with automatic forfeiture of your FFL (gun shop license).
 
2014-05-10 06:03:22 AM  

anuran: FTA:

 Lowy said a previous audit of Rayco Sales found 200 guns missing from the inventory.

That's beyond suspicious


Didn't the ATF just shut down a store in NY that was missing about this many guns?  With far, far higher volume?
 
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