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(UPI)   77-year-old Florida man tasered after trying to escape alleged bank robbery with walker   (upi.com) divider line 47
    More: Florida, Taser, bank robbery, PNC Bank, Bible College, pocket knife  
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2371 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 May 2014 at 2:20 PM (15 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



47 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-05-08 11:50:40 AM
Don't drag me into this. I wasn't even in Florida at the time.
 
2014-05-08 12:20:33 PM
At that age he should know the zombie would just slow him down
 
2014-05-08 01:22:10 PM

Walker: Don't drag me into this. I wasn't even in Florida at the time.


"Hip set me up!"
 
2014-05-08 02:21:53 PM
Ah, SBC.
 
2014-05-08 02:23:55 PM
www.nndb.com

Dy-no-mite!
 
2014-05-08 02:26:06 PM
Well. You didn't expect them to try and taze Walker himself did you?

gallery.grbrewer.com
 
2014-05-08 02:26:24 PM
"Stop with your hands up!!!"
 
2014-05-08 02:29:12 PM
Can't be charged with robbery if he hasn't stolen anything and he can't charged for assault if he hasn't actually assaulted anyone. He just needs a lawyer to get between him and the bank to sort things out. There is no gain to tase and jail this man.
 
2014-05-08 02:32:37 PM

captcaveman: There is no gain to tase and jail this man.


Tazing senior citizens make our cops feel like real men. But you can't taze him and then NOT arrest him. That'd be stupid...
 
2014-05-08 02:32:56 PM
No...

whiskyratingshq.com

Walker.

Black and Red still wanted for questioning.
 
2014-05-08 02:38:21 PM
He could not disarm an old man with a walker carrying a pocketknife?

I want to hear a rational explanation as to why he needed to be tased.
 
2014-05-08 02:40:02 PM

Enemabag Jones: He could not disarm an old man with a walker carrying a pocketknife?

I want to hear a rational explanation as to why he needed to be tased.


The officer was just "standing his ground"
 
2014-05-08 02:45:23 PM
I swear the first time I glanced at this headline I saw "77-year-old Florida man tasered after trying to escape alleged bank robbery with wanker", I REALLY need to wear my glasses more...
 
2014-05-08 02:53:48 PM
Not as convenient for the cop to use a shovel. Makes a somewhat satisfying *whang* when used properly.
 
2014-05-08 02:57:21 PM
If the old man didn't have a knife I would be upset. It is safer for the officer to tase the subject than try and remove the knife by force. Now, if it was just an old man and a walker there is no reason to tase.
 
2014-05-08 02:57:43 PM
I had to actually read the article to see that he was the would-be bank robber and not someone trying to escape a bank robbery.

"77-year-old man with walker tasered trying to escape after allegedly trying to rob bank"

vs

"77-year-old Florida man tasered after trying to escape alleged bank robbery with walker"
 
2014-05-08 03:01:46 PM
Scott Walker will lie his way out of it.
 
2014-05-08 03:04:15 PM
img.photobucket.com
 
2014-05-08 03:05:29 PM
Maybe he just needed a defibrillator?
 
2014-05-08 03:09:46 PM

captcaveman: Can't be charged with robbery if he hasn't stolen anything and he can't charged for assault if he hasn't actually assaulted anyone. He just needs a lawyer to get between him and the bank to sort things out. There is no gain to tase and jail this man.


Where did you get that GED in law from... an unsuccessful robbery is still robbery.
 
2014-05-08 03:11:53 PM
Empty H
If the old man didn't have a knife I would be upset. It is safer for the officer to tase the subject than try and remove the knife by force. Now, if it was just an old man and a walker there is no reason to tase.


It is safer to have a guy fall on the sidewalk then grapping the guys arm and taking away the knife?

Is he going to swing his walker at him?
 
2014-05-08 03:13:45 PM

deansnose: Scott Walker will lie his way out of it.


He's my brother. For real.
 
2014-05-08 03:21:25 PM
It's sad.  He was trying to commit suicide by cop.
 
2014-05-08 03:21:34 PM
Sounds to me like the old man thought he had $130 in the bank but the bank stole his money by charging him fees for not having enough in his account. (a common banking trick to close out small accounts, legalized by that freedom loving guy Ronald Reagan back in 1981.)

Then when he went to get the money they told him he had no money and he pitched a fit.
Should have read the fine print, old dude.
 
2014-05-08 03:22:05 PM

firefly212: captcaveman: Can't be charged with robbery if he hasn't stolen anything and he can't charged for assault if he hasn't actually assaulted anyone. He just needs a lawyer to get between him and the bank to sort things out. There is no gain to tase and jail this man.

Where did you get that GED in law from... an unsuccessful robbery is still robbery.


And my understanding is that even if he used a squirt gun, he'd be charged as if it were a real gun.  At least in FL.

This guy held a knife to someone.  That's assault - by the books.
 
2014-05-08 03:31:52 PM

captcaveman: Can't be charged with robbery if he hasn't stolen anything and he can't charged for assault if he hasn't actually assaulted anyone. He just needs a lawyer to get between him and the bank to sort things out. There is no gain to tase and jail this man.


Uh, armed robbery isn't predicated on being good at it.  Taser is the least violent methods to stop someone with a knife.  Physically overpowering him is most likely to cause broken bones.   A taser means a 230 lb, 6'5" officer didn't fall on him or throw him to the ground.  Not a lot of choices if he has a weapon.
 
2014-05-08 03:39:48 PM
The best way to rob a bank is to have a banking license.

...And it's gone.
 
2014-05-08 04:06:29 PM

Enemabag Jones: Empty H
If the old man didn't have a knife I would be upset. It is safer for the officer to tase the subject than try and remove the knife by force. Now, if it was just an old man and a walker there is no reason to tase.

It is safer to have a guy fall on the sidewalk then grapping the guys arm and taking away the knife?

Is he going to swing his walker at him?


A knife is a deadly weapon. A walker is not. Someone with a walker can easily be subdued without the chance of great injury to anyone involved. Trying to subdue anyone with a knife means there is still a chance to greatly injure anyone involved.

On a side note, why not just quote me so I know you are asking a question? Or is this some way of using another person's statement as your own chance to say something without getting the OPs attention? I am honestly wondering.
 
2014-05-08 04:19:59 PM
I was prepared to be outraged but this time the tazering was both needed and justified.   Nice to see every once in a great while the cops get in the news using a tazer properly.
 
2014-05-08 04:20:06 PM

Diogenes: firefly212: captcaveman: Can't be charged with robbery if he hasn't stolen anything and he can't charged for assault if he hasn't actually assaulted anyone. He just needs a lawyer to get between him and the bank to sort things out. There is no gain to tase and jail this man.

Where did you get that GED in law from... an unsuccessful robbery is still robbery.


And my understanding is that even if he used a squirt gun, he'd be charged as if it were a real gun.  At least in FL.

This guy held a knife to someone.  That's assault - by the books.

Only if he used the squirt gun to beat the victim.  Florida requires that the robbery be committed with a weapon or with something that was used as a weapon.

http://www.4dca.org/opinions/Oct%202011/10-12-11/4D09-1559.op.pdf
 
2014-05-08 04:26:48 PM

Cataholic: Diogenes: firefly212: captcaveman: Can't be charged with robbery if he hasn't stolen anything and he can't charged for assault if he hasn't actually assaulted anyone. He just needs a lawyer to get between him and the bank to sort things out. There is no gain to tase and jail this man.

Where did you get that GED in law from... an unsuccessful robbery is still robbery.

And my understanding is that even if he used a squirt gun, he'd be charged as if it were a real gun.  At least in FL.

This guy held a knife to someone.  That's assault - by the books.

Only if he used the squirt gun to beat the victim.  Florida requires that the robbery be committed with a weapon or with something that was used as a weapon.

http://www.4dca.org/opinions/Oct%202011/10-12-11/4D09-1559.op.pdf


I stand corrected.
 
2014-05-08 04:38:18 PM
Empty H
A knife is a deadly weapon. A walker is not. Someone with a walker can easily be subdued without the chance of great injury to anyone involved. Trying to subdue anyone with a knife means there is still a chance to greatly injure anyone involved.
On a side note, why not just quote me so I know you are asking a question? Or is this some way of using another person's statement as your own chance to say something without getting the OPs attention? I am honestly wondering.

A mistake. If I want to screw with people I do it directly. I am not into weasel mindf**ks.

So it is better to tase the old man and let him fall rather then just grab the knife. Thinking like this is why we have so many police shootings when they could have been avoided.
 
2014-05-08 05:07:38 PM

Enemabag Jones: Empty H
A knife is a deadly weapon. A walker is not. Someone with a walker can easily be subdued without the chance of great injury to anyone involved. Trying to subdue anyone with a knife means there is still a chance to greatly injure anyone involved.
On a side note, why not just quote me so I know you are asking a question? Or is this some way of using another person's statement as your own chance to say something without getting the OPs attention? I am honestly wondering.

A mistake. If I want to screw with people I do it directly. I am not into weasel mindf**ks.

So it is better to tase the old man and let him fall rather then just grab the knife. Thinking like this is why we have so many police shootings when they could have been avoided.


Apparently you are because you did it again. Since you won't answer me directly I will just assume it is a play for power in the conversation.

On topic, it is a calculated risk. In your slippery slope hypothetical the only person he might injure is himself. I don't know what kind of ninja world you live in, but it isn't always as easy as "grab the knife" out of someone's hands. Doesn't matter how old they are.

Now, if the old man didn't have a knife and they tased him I would be upset and ranting a raving. I am all about some cop bashing in threads where they deserve it. This is not one of those instances.
 
2014-05-08 05:19:32 PM
Empty H
Apparently you are because you did it again. Since you won't answer me directly I will just assume it is a play for power in the conversation.
On topic, it is a calculated risk. In your slippery slope hypothetical the only person he might injure is himself. I don't know what kind of ninja world you live in, but it isn't always as easy as "grab the knife" out of someone's hands. Doesn't matter how old they are.
Now, if the old man didn't have a knife and they tased him I would be upset and ranting a raving. I am all about some cop bashing in threads where they deserve it. This is not one of those instances.


No another mistake, believe me or don't.

Ever watch reno 911? This sounds like it is a script from reno 911?
They were tasing a 90 year old man in a walker with a pocketknife. I repeat, they were tasing a angry old man in a walker carrying a pocketknife.

And using a taser against a 90 year old person in a walker, if they hit their head, have a heart problem, or break a hip should be considered deadly force just like it was a gun. Did the situation require deadly force?

They could have tried to talk him down, block the sidewalk with a patrol car, put superglue on the sidewalk. They didn't have to use deadly force against an old man in a walker.

This is why cop is like the number 11 or 12th most dangerous job in the US. Throw out the time a cop gets hit on the side of the street and I bet it goes way down. They have put all of the risk on the public because they have been told everyone is out to kill them.

\Watchout for old men in walkers, they are OG's out to kill police everywhere.
 
2014-05-08 05:51:36 PM

Enemabag Jones: Empty H
If the old man didn't have a knife I would be upset. It is safer for the officer to tase the subject than try and remove the knife by force. Now, if it was just an old man and a walker there is no reason to tase.

It is safer to have a guy fall on the sidewalk then grapping the guys arm and taking away the knife?


See bolded section.
 
2014-05-08 07:50:39 PM

ArcadianRefugee: Enemabag Jones: Empty H
If the old man didn't have a knife I would be upset. It is safer for the officer to tase the subject than try and remove the knife by force. Now, if it was just an old man and a walker there is no reason to tase.

It is safer to have a guy fall on the sidewalk then grapping the guys arm and taking away the knife?

See bolded section.


It's safer for the old man too.  Falling to the ground with your own weight is a lot less traumatic than an officer applying physical force.  There is no comparison.  He most certainly was told to stop and drop the knife.  They could have physically removed the knife from him using brute force but it means taking him to the ground.  The taser is MUCH safer for the old guy than an officer physically subduing him.  The proof is the lack of broken bones.  He may not have survived a tackle or any physical fight.  His arm may not be intact after a baton strike for the knife.   What physical force do you think the officer could have used that caused less damage than the taser?   Talking was already over and was ineffective.
 
2014-05-08 09:09:08 PM
tbeatty
It's safer for the old man too. Falling to the ground with your own weight is a lot less traumatic than an officer applying physical force. There is no comparison. He most certainly was told to stop and drop the knife. They could have physically removed the knife from him using brute force but it means taking him to the ground. The taser is MUCH safer for the old guy than an officer physically subduing him. The proof is the lack of broken bones. He may not have survived a tackle or any physical fight. His arm may not be intact after a baton strike for the knife. What physical force do you think the officer could have used that caused less damage than the taser? Talking was already over and was ineffective.


People have died from a tasing, and for someone 90 years old there was a large risk of injury comparable to a gunshot at his age.

I never said the guy had to be tackled. I refuse to believe there was no better solution that tasing a 90 year old with a walker carrying a pocketknife.

The way this is going any threat to a police officer will justify whatever force used, even deadly force, as shown here. That preschooler had a crayon and was acting unpredictable, he could have put out the eye of the officer.
 
2014-05-08 10:11:47 PM

captcaveman: Can't be charged with robbery if he hasn't stolen anything and he can't charged for assault if he hasn't actually assaulted anyone. He just needs a lawyer to get between him and the bank to sort things out. There is no gain to tase and jail this man.


First, he clearly did steal #130 from the bank, at knife-point.

Second, you should probably look up the definition of assault.

Enemabag Jones: I never said the guy had to be tackled. I refuse to believe there was no better solution that tasing a 90 year old with a walker carrying a pocketknife.


When you start robbing banks and threatening people with knives, I pretty much lose sympathy for you.  He got tased because he was being a dick and threatening people.  His safety is down at the bottom of the list when it comes to how it should be handled.  This isn't an innocent old man.
 
2014-05-08 10:32:34 PM
JuggleGeek ,
When you start robbing banks and threatening people with knives, I pretty much lose sympathy for you. He got tased because he was being a dick and threatening people. His safety is down at the bottom of the list when it comes to how it should be handled. This isn't an innocent old man.


I never said he was innocent, although he is innocent until proven guilty.

I said that for a 90 year old man a 'less-lethal' taser has a comparable risk of death as a gun.

Did that situation demand deadly force? Was it necessary to tase a 90 year old man in a walker with a pocketknife. Was there other options?
 
2014-05-08 11:23:31 PM

Enemabag Jones: Did that situation demand deadly force?


Yes.  There is no reason for anyone else to risk getting hurt by the asshole with a knife.  Tell him to drop the knife.  If he refuses, then it's his damn fault when he gets tazed.

He could easily avoid this by not trying to act like a thug.
 
2014-05-09 01:15:06 AM

Enemabag Jones: tbeatty
It's safer for the old man too. Falling to the ground with your own weight is a lot less traumatic than an officer applying physical force. There is no comparison. He most certainly was told to stop and drop the knife. They could have physically removed the knife from him using brute force but it means taking him to the ground. The taser is MUCH safer for the old guy than an officer physically subduing him. The proof is the lack of broken bones. He may not have survived a tackle or any physical fight. His arm may not be intact after a baton strike for the knife. What physical force do you think the officer could have used that caused less damage than the taser? Talking was already over and was ineffective.


People have died from a tasing, and for someone 90 years old there was a large risk of injury comparable to a gunshot at his age.

I never said the guy had to be tackled. I refuse to believe there was no better solution that tasing a 90 year old with a walker carrying a pocketknife.

The way this is going any threat to a police officer will justify whatever force used, even deadly force, as shown here. That preschooler had a crayon and was acting unpredictable, he could have put out the eye of the officer.


I'm not really interested in what you refuse to believe.  I refuse to believe a 90 y/o man needs to threaten people with a knife.  But he did.  Second guess all you like but no officer would enjoy tasing a 90 y/o or do it unless the other option was a physical confrontation (if you've ever read about tasing of teenagers that are a danger to themselves or others, it's nearly always because the 240lb large officer can't physically restrain the 120lb  teenager without hurting them.).  The taser isn't anywhere close to a gunshot for anyone at any age.  I'm not sure what YOU think a taser does but it's not magic and it's not lethal.  Case in point: he survived and had no injuries.  He required no follow up care.  I guarantee that any other physical technique would have put him in the hospital.  Nothing screams "safe" quite like a successful, injury free, application to a 90 y/o subject in a walker.  Other than your belief that taser was "wrong" what option did you offer in place (talking to him didn't work)?   What would involve less injury?  Rodney King baton strikes to large muscle groups?  Tasers reduce police and suspect injuries and is one reason trial lawyers hate them.   There's no injury to sue for and videotape just shows someone becoming instantly compliant.  Other than verbal, it is the least injury causing use-of-force option police have.

Second, no one has ever died from a taser.  Sorry, it doesn't work that way.  Most police get tasered and pepper sprayed as part of required training.  Getting shot, however, is never required and equating them is simply stupid.  There are people that have died after being tasered (not during) and they universally have a drug problem (nearly all that have died are naked and sweating profusely from meth when they are subdued with a taser.  Correlation and causation are different.  Crazy meth people are tasered.  Crazy meth people die from OD.  That doesn't mean tasers cause crazy meth people to die, they just die in handcuffs instead of in a fight..  Police are now taught to look for those signs because their temperature kills them when the are immobilized after handcuffs are on.  That happens regardless of actions used to subdue like a taser.
 
2014-05-09 02:26:11 AM
tbeatty
I'm not really interested in what you refuse to believe. I refuse to believe a 90 y/o man needs to threaten people with a knife. But he did. Second guess all you like but no officer would enjoy tasing a 90 y/o or do it unless the other option was a physical confrontation (if you've ever read about tasing of teenagers that are a danger to themselves or others, it's nearly always because the 240lb large officer can't physically restrain the 120lb teenager without hurting them.). The taser isn't anywhere close to a gunshot for anyone at any age. I'm not sure what YOU think a taser does but it's not magic and it's not lethal. Case in point: he survived and had no injuries. He required no follow up care. I guarantee that any other physical technique would have put him in the hospital. Nothing screams "safe" quite like a successful, injury free, application to a 90 y/o subject in a walker. Other than your belief that taser was "wrong" what option did you offer in place (talking to him didn't work)? What would involve less injury? Rodney King baton strikes to large muscle groups? Tasers reduce police and suspect injuries and is one reason trial lawyers hate them. There's no injury to sue for and videotape just shows someone becoming instantly compliant. Other than verbal, it is the least injury causing use-of-force option police have.

Second, no one has ever died from a taser. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Most police get tasered and pepper sprayed as part of required training. Getting shot, however, is never required and equating them is simply stupid. There are people that have died after being tasered (not during) and they universally have a drug problem (nearly all that have died are naked and sweating profusely from meth when they are subdued with a taser. Correlation and causation are different. Crazy meth people are tasered. Crazy meth people die from OD. That doesn't mean tasers cause crazy meth people to die, they just die in handcuffs instead of in a fight.. Police are now taught to look for those signs because their temperature kills them when the are immobilized after handcuffs are on. That happens regardless of actions used to subdue like a taser.


Tasers are referred to as 'less-lethal'. They freeze your muscles and make you fall. When police get tasered they get held on both sides on a gym mat. I don't think falling on concrete is as fun.

If the old man fell he could have broke a hip, or had heart problems. Essentially for someone with weakened health conditions, someone on drugs, they could die from a taser. Using a taser against a 90 year old man is a use of force that could have killed him.

I will ask again, why did they immediately have to stop the old man with the pocketknife? What were other options, and why were the only options you mentioned violent?

There have been 538 deaths taser related since 2013. Are you quite sure all of them were on drugs? The more I read about Excited Delirium for those on drugs, it could be serious bullshiat. Unless you only listen to taser makers and law enforcement.

Thanks for the information on Excited Delirium and Tasers, I learned something today.
 
2014-05-09 06:38:57 AM
Enemabag Jones:
Tasers are referred to as 'less-lethal'. They freeze your muscles and make you fall. When police get tasered they get held on both sides on a gym mat. I don't think falling on concrete is as fun.
If the old man fell he could have broke a hip, or had heart problems. Essentially for someone with weakened health conditions, someone on drugs, they could die from a taser. Using a taser against a 90 year old man is a use of force that could have killed him.
I will ask again, why did they immediately have to stop the old man with the pocketknife? What were other options, and why were the only options you mentioned violent?
There have been 538 deaths taser related since 2013. Are you quite sure all of them were on drugs? The more I read about Excited Delirium for those on drugs, it could be serious bullshiat. Unless you only listen to taser makers and law enforcement.


Tasers are referred to as non-lethal, less-than-lethal and less-lethal depending on department.  Same as pepper spray, batons and various strikes and holds.  Bean bag and rubber bullets are less lethal.

You miss that he wasn't hurt.  He's under arrest.  Again, they told him to surrender and talked to him.  What else did you think needed to be done?  Taking down anyone with a a knife that won't drop it or comply is physical.  They are going to control the hand with the knife and force him into a position to be handcuffed.  I  guarantee that any other method is more injurios than just falling under his own weight.  His muscles are in sync with his bones.  A taser can only create muscle contractions that are his own.   But a 240lb officer in is early thirties has no limit imposed on the old persons bones.  It's  a physiological fact that the old persons muscles will exert less force on his bones.  Every physical option is more violent than a taser.  Falling is MUCH better than being forced to the ground.  Police know this and it's why Tasers are even used.  Suspect injuries are way down.  Officer injuries are way down.  This ended with no injuries despite a frail, non-compliant 90 y/o with a knife.  Those things don't end well without tasers.  Usually if it's not a Taser, someong of that age would die in any type of struggle.  90 year old muscles contracting against 90 year old bones means no real injury.

You will need a citation for the "taser deaths."   Worst injuries are a probe to the eye.  Falls induced by taser have caused injury and maybe even death but not just falls the ground.  Tasers into flammable liquids have caused injury from fire.  But there simply are no cases where the taser, by itself has killed anyone.   I didn't mention excited delirium as it's not particularly necessary so don't thank me.  Read the case histories and they have a theme: a) overheated b) naked and c) out of control fighting and hallucinatios.  A 110F body temp will kill people.    Correlation is not causation.    Case in point: 90 y/o man in a walker is tased with no lasting effects or injuries but somehow you want a different outcome.  Tasers are used routinely instead of baton, hand strikes, pepper spray, and submission holds such as carotid, etc.   You still haven't provided an option.  A 90 y/o man in walker   just robbed a bank with a pocket knife: how rational and coherent do you think he is?  Any one of those officers could have disarmed him physically.  And he probably would have died in a physical altercation.  But it would have saved you this irrational fear of tasers.
 
2014-05-09 11:06:57 AM

tbeatty: Enemabag Jones:
Stuff.


Don't bother with this guy. His lack of reading comprehension (the suspect is 77, not 90) or complete disregard for it, combined with his other "mistakes", shows he is simply antagonistic to be antagonistic or, at best, just an idiot.
 
2014-05-09 02:34:37 PM

Empty H: tbeatty: Enemabag Jones:
Stuff.

Don't bother with this guy. His lack of reading comprehension (the suspect is 77, not 90) or complete disregard for it, combined with his other "mistakes", shows he is simply antagonistic to be antagonistic or, at best, just an idiot.


What substantially changes between 77 or 80 or 90?  I posted facts about tasers and not mindless, reactionary fear.  Tasers work on science and the opposition to their use is emotional.  I take science over emotion for decision making.  I've seen the technology and I've also seen modifications to make it lethal.  I know facts often get in the way of an emotion based argument.  Read a police use of force field and general orders section.  Verbal is the first.  A 20, 30 40 or 77 or 90 year old that doesn't comply with a police order is generally not all there, either due to stress or mental illness.  Most taser policies require lethal cover when it's deployed (meaning there is an armed LEO pointing a gun at the suspect).  That is probably the most common use of force policy violation as officers will tend to use Tasers as the least injurious method beyond speech.  There are plenty of videos of lone policeman deploying tasers that fail and then the officer gets hit and beat.  This is especially true with lapel cams becoming more popular.

I can help it if you are ignorant.  A Police X26 (and all police model) taser probe deployments does a number of things.  The first is to spray out a number of "felony ID tags" associated with the taser.  They know which cartridge was fired from the tags.  Second, the shock is 5 seconds.  It's not alterable.  To get 10 seconds, the trigger must be pulled again.  All shocks are logged on a secure chip inside the taser than can be extracted by a technician (it's why everyone knows how many times someone was shocked and that number x 5 seconds is the total), not by the officer.  Contrast that with a baton strike where no one knows unless it's on video.  The 12 gauge taser model (not much sales) is a 30 second ride and deploys the entire taser as a projectile.  It's used on distant subjects where 30 seconds is needed to get to them.  Tasers are very transparent.  It's usually required that the subject is warned. In a chase, that may be a shout of "taser, taser, taser!" in a conversation it will be "if you don't comply I am going to use the taser to force compliance."  Many things protect the taser from being electrically lethal.  The first is that the discharge capacitor doesn't generally have enough energy to affect the heart.  The second is the pulse width and current is tuned to the impedance between the probes and the frequency is too high to interfere with heart muscle.  Probes barely penetrate the skin and are usual in the front or preferably the back.  Current is generally near the surface of the skin and doesn't penetrate to the heart.  Higher voltages cause an electrical channel to form and once that channel is in place, the voltage is reduce substantially (like the shock you get from carpet to doorknob is really high voltage to breakdown the air gap but with no energy to affect the heart.  Still static carpet shocks hurt).  The pulse width is also engineered to affect long muscle fibers of the legs and back but not the short fibers associated with the heart.  There is a concern that pacemaker wires that are near the surface may receive an induced impulse of energy.  Not many people with pacemakers are tased and it's rectified by targeting the back.  Taser discourages using chest hits for this reason.  Also they discourage head because of potential eye injury and the groin to prevent probe damaging the genitals.   The "drive stun" mode is two contact points that deliver a shock when the taser is in physical contact.  It's not the 5 second ride and is generally used for subjects that are already immobile but is resisting by not allowing officers to handcuff him.  It's strictly a pain compliance technique.

Now compare the equivalent use of force: Baton strike, pepper spray, closed handed strike, various holds, joint locks and manipulations, nerve bundle pressure, knee strikes, etc.  That's after verbal and open handed control.  Police don't carry pepper spray nearly as much because it's unpredictable and much more uncomfortable for the subject and police.  No officers are going to feel good about going "hands on" with an elderly subject or a child.  Not because it isn't allowed or that level of force isn't required but because a knee strike or joint lock or choke hold may become necessary if they are combative (and they are already combative by ignoring commands and threats of force).   If the officer is forced to use his muscles on elderly people, there will be serious injuries.  No one would have blinked an eye if the officer ended up breaking his arm to remove the knife.  Instead, he chose a method that has virtually no injuries and if it fails they are still a distance away and don't have to go to more violent methods.  Why would anyone be hating on that?  Because it hurt?  Because falling down under his own weight and muscle strength looks bullyish when a strapping 30 year-old officer chooses to use a device that can only inflict the strength of the elderly persons own muscles  instead of joint locking him into a submission hold and landing on him?  All the use of force techniques are to make the subject compliant either through pain or immobilization.  The taser was the least stressful option for the elderly bank robber if he is not complying.  The taser allows the most options after deployment if it fails.  It's the most humane way to deal with combative mentally ill people that simply cannot be reasoned with.   Ask any officer whether they prefer to be shocked by a taser or pepper sprayed and the overwhelming answer is "taser."  It hurts a lot but it's completely over in 5 seconds with no lasting after effects.  Pepper spray lasts for 30-60 minutes until it drys.  Then a shower reactivates as it runs into the groin.

And lastly, the first thing people complain about when an armed person is shot is "Why didn't they use the taser?"  Turning it around and complaining when the armed person is tased instead of shot is just asinine.
 
2014-05-09 02:45:32 PM

tbeatty: Empty H: tbeatty: Enemabag Jones:
Stuff.

Don't bother with this guy. His lack of reading comprehension (the suspect is 77, not 90) or complete disregard for it, combined with his other "mistakes", shows he is simply antagonistic to be antagonistic or, at best, just an idiot.

What substantially changes between 77 or 80 or 90?  I posted facts about tasers and not mindless, reactionary fear.  Tasers work on science and the opposition to their use is emotional.  I take science over emotion for decision making.  I've seen the technology and I've also seen modifications to make it lethal.  I know facts often get in the way of an emotion based argument.  Read a police use of force field and general orders section.  Verbal is the first.  A 20, 30 40 or 77 or 90 year old that doesn't comply with a police order is generally not all there, either due to stress or mental illness.  Most taser policies require lethal cover when it's deployed (meaning there is an armed LEO pointing a gun at the suspect).  That is probably the most common use of force policy violation as officers will tend to use Tasers as the least injurious method beyond speech.  There are plenty of videos of lone policeman deploying tasers that fail and then the officer gets hit and beat.  This is especially true with lapel cams becoming more popular.

I can help it if you are ignorant.  A Police X26 (and all police model) taser probe deployments does a number of things.  The first is to spray out a number of "felony ID tags" associated with the taser.  They know which cartridge was fired from the tags.  Second, the shock is 5 seconds.  It's not alterable.  To get 10 seconds, the trigger must be pulled again.  All shocks are logged on a secure chip inside the taser than can be extracted by a technician (it's why everyone knows how many times someone was shocked and that number x 5 seconds is the total), not by the officer.  Contrast that with a baton strike where no one knows unless it's on video.  The 12 gauge taser model (not much sales) is a 30 second ride and deploys the entire taser as a projectile.  It's used on distant subjects where 30 seconds is needed to get to them.  Tasers are very transparent.  It's usually required that the subject is warned. In a chase, that may be a shout of "taser, taser, taser!" in a conversation it will be "if you don't comply I am going to use the taser to force compliance."  Many things protect the taser from being electrically lethal.  The first is that the discharge capacitor doesn't generally have enough energy to affect the heart.  The second is the pulse width and current is tuned to the impedance between the probes and the frequency is too high to interfere with heart muscle.  Probes barely penetrate the skin and are usual in the front or preferably the back.  Current is generally near the surface of the skin and doesn't penetrate to the heart.  Higher voltages cause an electrical channel to form and once that channel is in place, the voltage is reduce substantially (like the shock you get from carpet to doorknob is really high voltage to breakdown the air gap but with no energy to affect the heart.  Still static carpet shocks hurt).  The pulse width is also engineered to affect long muscle fibers of the legs and back but not the short fibers associated with the heart.  There is a concern that pacemaker wires that are near the surface may receive an induced impulse of energy.  Not many people with pacemakers are tased and it's rectified by targeting the back.  Taser discourages using chest hits for this reason.  Also they discourage head because of potential eye injury and the groin to prevent probe damaging the genitals.   The "drive stun" mode is two contact points that deliver a shock when the taser is in physical contact.  It's not the 5 second ride and is generally used for subjects that are already immobile but is resisting by not allowing officers to handcuff him.  It's strictly a pain compliance technique.

Now compare the equivalent use of force: Baton strike, pepper spray, closed handed strike, various holds, joint locks and manipulations, nerve bundle pressure, knee strikes, etc.  That's after verbal and open handed control.  Police don't carry pepper spray nearly as much because it's unpredictable and much more uncomfortable for the subject and police.  No officers are going to feel good about going "hands on" with an elderly subject or a child.  Not because it isn't allowed or that level of force isn't required but because a knee strike or joint lock or choke hold may become necessary if they are combative (and they are already combative by ignoring commands and threats of force).   If the officer is forced to use his muscles on elderly people, there will be serious injuries.  No one would have blinked an eye if the officer ended up breaking his arm to remove the knife.  Instead, he chose a method that has virtually no injuries and if it fails they are still a distance away and don't have to go to more violent methods.  Why would anyone be hating on that?  Because it hurt?  Because falling down under his own weight and muscle strength looks bullyish when a strapping 30 year-old officer chooses to use a device that can only inflict the strength of the elderly persons own muscles  instead of joint locking him into a submission hold and landing on him?  All the use of force techniques are to make the subject compliant either through pain or immobilization.  The taser was the least stressful option for the elderly bank robber if he is not complying.  The taser allows the most options after deployment if it fails.  It's the most humane way to deal with combative mentally ill people that simply cannot be reasoned with.   Ask any officer whether they prefer to be shocked by a taser or pepper sprayed and the overwhelming answer is "taser."  It hurts a lot but it's completely over in 5 seconds with no lasting after effects.  Pepper spray lasts for 30-60 minutes until it drys.  Then a shower reactivates as it runs into the groin.

And lastly, the first thing people complain about when an armed person is shot is "Why didn't they use the taser?"  Turning it around and complaining when the armed person is tased instead of shot is just asinine.


Calm down buddy. I wasn't talking about you.
 
2014-05-09 03:43:09 PM

Empty H: tbeatty: Empty H: tbeatty: Enemabag Jones:
Stuff.

Calm down buddy. I wasn't talking about you.


Well, I fell like an idiot now. Thanks! sorry about that.
 
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