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(Fox Business)   Struggling Barnes and Noble looks to expand into US college campuses, the only place where companies can get away with charging $185 for a goddamn paperback that will be worthless in a year   (foxbusiness.com) divider line 45
    More: Interesting, Association of Colleges, topline, Barnes & Noble, College Board  
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230 clicks; posted to Business » on 08 May 2014 at 1:13 PM (19 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



45 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-05-08 11:03:33 AM
If only Amazon Student existed when I was in college.
 
2014-05-08 11:42:38 AM
Odd, I thought they already did this. It won't help them, students already avoid paying full prices for textbooks. And I don't see colleges doing away with their stores (outsourcing) especially since its a sure way for them to make money.

/used to work for my college's bookstore
 
2014-05-08 11:52:22 AM

raerae1980: Odd, I thought they already did this. It won't help them, students already avoid paying full prices for textbooks. And I don't see colleges doing away with their stores (outsourcing) especially since its a sure way for them to make money.

/used to work for my college's bookstore


I think many, or at least most, campus bookstores are now run by big outfits like B&N. My niece's is, as is the one I used to work at in NY. We gave my niece a B&N gift card to help with her books.
 
2014-05-08 12:23:04 PM
Umm... I work for a textbook distributor and pretty much every decent sized campus has a B&N or Follet on it.. or close enough to be considered "on campus"
 
2014-05-08 12:25:54 PM
This might keep them afloat for another couple of years, but their death is inevitable. Physical media, print especially, is a dying business. There is no way B&N can compete with Amazon on price or selection, the only area where they have an advantage is convenience for when you absolutely must have whatever book immediately, and even then Amazon has same day shipping available in many markets now. B&N will be dead in a few years, and hopefully their subsidiary Gamestop goes with it.
 
2014-05-08 01:08:17 PM
I love Barnes & Noble. It's like Amazon's showroom.
 
2014-05-08 01:22:40 PM

Shadow Blasko: Umm... I work for a textbook distributor and pretty much every decent sized campus has a B&N or Follet on it.. or close enough to be considered "on campus"


This. The first school I went to had B&N, the next was Follet.

The trick I used to save money on books: buy the book,go to the library and scan nearly every page, save to flash drive, return the book while I could still get full price claiming "I found it cheaper somewhere else". I did this for 1-2 books per semester, saving hundreds.
 
2014-05-08 01:23:04 PM
They're shuttering stores in NYC, like the one in the West Village on Sixth Ave.  that's not a good sign at all.
 
2014-05-08 01:26:19 PM

AverageAmericanGuy: I love Barnes & Noble. It's like Amazon's showroom.


Yes and they have bathrooms you can use.
 
2014-05-08 01:26:28 PM
This is new? BN ran the bookstore at the college I attended, and that was 24 years ago.*
Not surprisingly, textbook prices were ridiculous.
At the end of the semester they hypothetically offered to buy the books back from you but only about 1 of every 20 books was eligible for this, because the publisher would always come out with a new edition every year, rendering the previous edition officially useless.


The manager was kind of a dick, and had the worst comb-over in history.


*I'm old
 
2014-05-08 01:27:52 PM

spman


This might keep them afloat for another couple of years, but their death is inevitable. Physical media, print especially, is a dying business. There is no way B&N can compete with Amazon on price or selection, the only area where they have an advantage is convenience for when you absolutely must have whatever book immediately


Not true. The physical store is also much better for casual browsing (wander into a section, see what looks interesting) without having a particular goal in mind.
 
2014-05-08 01:30:26 PM

sdd2000: AverageAmericanGuy: I love Barnes & Noble. It's like Amazon's showroom.

Yes and they have bathrooms you can use.


cdn.randomfunnypicture.com
 
2014-05-08 01:31:46 PM

Englebert Slaptyback: spman

This might keep them afloat for another couple of years, but their death is inevitable. Physical media, print especially, is a dying business. There is no way B&N can compete with Amazon on price or selection, the only area where they have an advantage is convenience for when you absolutely must have whatever book immediately


Not true. The physical store is also much better for casual browsing (wander into a section, see what looks interesting) without having a particular goal in mind.


Eh, you can still do that on Amazon, and that's really not an advantage, since the majority of casual browsers are not paying customers, they are just using the store as a showroom for Amazon as was mentioned above.
 
2014-05-08 01:38:19 PM
We need a gigantic public database of open-source textbooks in every subject.
 
2014-05-08 01:44:06 PM
Amazon does beat Barnes on selection. Price can be pretty close however.

Whenever I do an online buy(because I can't find it locally) I usually buy at least five books sometimes more. I compare both sites and most times amazon does come up cheaper, but not always. Last order amazon was about ten bucks cheaper.

I just compared five books(new releases) and all books on amazon were cheaper except one. Total saving for going with amazon was $2.33.

Looking at the % off, if I bought in the store at Barnes I would get it at the same or even cheaper. I would save even more since I'm a member. And I get coupons emailed to me on a regular basis(6 or 7 so far this year) for and additional 20% off, pretty sure you don't need to be a member to get those. Last hardcover I bought from them was 60% off.


Would love to have Barnes on my campus.
 
2014-05-08 01:44:25 PM

spman


Eh, you can still do that on Amazon, and that's really not an advantage, since the majority of casual browsers are not paying customers, they are just using the store as a showroom for Amazon as was mentioned above.


*facepalm*

I didn't say you couldn't do that on Amazon; I said the store is better in that respect. For example, B&N typically has a couple aisles of sale items that don't fit a particular theme. The 'deals in books' area on Amazon goes up to only $15, so a lot of items wouldn't be included.

And I'm sure you have something to back up the assertion that "the majority of casual browsers are not paying customers", right? Or are you mixing up B&N with Best Buy?
 
2014-05-08 01:51:21 PM
I'm not sure if it's a good idea everywhere, but they aren't kidding about the Rutgers one in New Brunswick. It's streets ahead of what used to be there. Now you can get off the train and walk right past the B&N and onto campus, as opposed to walking all the way down the platform and sidestepping some homeless guys as you go down the beaten-up steps.

/why yes, they did put this store up the year AFTER I graduated
 
2014-05-08 02:16:59 PM

Lothar IB: Amazon does beat Barnes on selection. Price can be pretty close however.

Whenever I do an online buy(because I can't find it locally) I usually buy at least five books sometimes more. I compare both sites and most times amazon does come up cheaper, but not always. Last order amazon was about ten bucks cheaper.

I just compared five books(new releases) and all books on amazon were cheaper except one. Total saving for going with amazon was $2.33.

Looking at the % off, if I bought in the store at Barnes I would get it at the same or even cheaper. I would save even more since I'm a member. And I get coupons emailed to me on a regular basis(6 or 7 so far this year) for and additional 20% off, pretty sure you don't need to be a member to get those. Last hardcover I bought from them was 60% off.


Would love to have Barnes on my campus.


Prices for Paperbacks are generally the same, those are sold mass market as cheaply as possible, so there is generally very little markup on those. Hardcovers however are almost always 20% to 40% cheaper on Amazon. At B&N, with the exception of a handful of best sellers that they knock like 10% off the price on, you are generally going to pay the price that's listed on the book jacket for your hardcover. At Amazon they always beat that price by a large margin.

Englebert Slaptyback: And I'm sure you have something to back up the assertion that "the majority of casual browsers are not paying customers", right? Or are you mixing up B&N with Best Buy?


The back up to my assertion is my faith in the fact that the book buying public has enough sense not to pay full price when they don't have to.
 
2014-05-08 02:22:03 PM

kittyhas1000legs: The trick I used to save money on books: buy the book,go to the library and scan nearly every page, save to flash drive, return the book while I could still get full price claiming "I found it cheaper somewhere else". I did this for 1-2 books per semester, saving hundreds.


You're definitely seeing this. Faster than scanning, a digital camera is good enough for a readable copy. I know several frats have set up stations. Camera with manual focus and remote control set on a tripod, book on a stand, decent lighting, and you can have your freshmen pledges pirate 3-4 books an hour.
 
2014-05-08 02:35:00 PM

Lawnchair: kittyhas1000legs: The trick I used to save money on books: buy the book,go to the library and scan nearly every page, save to flash drive, return the book while I could still get full price claiming "I found it cheaper somewhere else". I did this for 1-2 books per semester, saving hundreds.

You're definitely seeing this. Faster than scanning, a digital camera is good enough for a readable copy. I know several frats have set up stations. Camera with manual focus and remote control set on a tripod, book on a stand, decent lighting, and you can have your freshmen pledges pirate 3-4 books an hour.


I definitely avoided having to buy several books by waiting until the professor assigned assigned comprehension questions from the book for homework, then borrowing the book from the guy next to me and taking a quick photo of said comprehension questions using my iPhone. Another strategy I found that worked well was buying international editions online.

In many cases the international edition was identical to the one in the bookstore, except for the fact that it was a softcover. Generally I would get the international editions for pennies on the dollar compared to the bookstore, I'm talking like paying $10 for the international edition of a book that the bookstore wanted $150 for.
 
2014-05-08 02:41:54 PM
I saved lots of money by committing theft!
 
2014-05-08 02:42:32 PM
The article missed a huge issue completely.

A friend of mine manages one of these college bookstores for B&N. In two years the college is ending its contract and eliminating the bookstore all together. The small college will shift to 100% digital coursework - eliminating the need for a bookstore entirely. If the students want pencils or binders they cab go to Office Depot or something.
 
2014-05-08 02:51:14 PM

madgonad: The article missed a huge issue completely.

A friend of mine manages one of these college bookstores for B&N. In two years the college is ending its contract and eliminating the bookstore all together. The small college will shift to 100% digital coursework - eliminating the need for a bookstore entirely. If the students want pencils or binders they cab go to Office Depot or something.


the next step will then be students purchasing codes to access the 'digital' material...which will be the same price range as a physical book, but with the added bonus that when the code expires you won't even have something you can resell privately, keep in your library or burn for heat.

Unless the college is having all its material provided for free on the school server, that will be the next rounds of complaints.  Also, where will the 'free' material come from?  open source, professors creating their own? can't wait to hear the comments regarding the 'quality' of the digital material.
 
2014-05-08 02:54:16 PM

sendtodave: I saved lots of money by committing theft!


In 99% of all cases I agree with your sarcasm completely, but the college textbook industry is an incredibly huge racket, and a major contributor to what makes going to school unaffordable for many people. These stupid books are marked up 100% and sometimes more above what they cost to produce, and they insist that schools only use the most recent edition which in many cases just means that the cover is changed, and some of the chapters are shuffled around. In the case of textbooks, I say anything that lets you have some advantage over the publishers that are trying to screw you is fine.
 
2014-05-08 02:58:37 PM
I will admit that I have a preference for physical books.  I am not entirely sure why but I feel a greater level of engagement with them.  For lighter fare I will use my kindle but heavy stuff I enjoy the physical book.
 
2014-05-08 03:09:57 PM

spman: sendtodave: I saved lots of money by committing theft!

In 99% of all cases I agree with your sarcasm completely, but the college textbook industry is an incredibly huge racket, and a major contributor to what makes going to school unaffordable for many people. These stupid books are marked up 100% and sometimes more above what they cost to produce, and they insist that schools only use the most recent edition which in many cases just means that the cover is changed, and some of the chapters are shuffled around. In the case of textbooks, I say anything that lets you have some advantage over the publishers that are trying to screw you is fine.


I totally agree.  It is better to steal expensive things.
 
2014-05-08 03:11:45 PM

spman: Lothar IB: Amazon does beat Barnes on selection. Price can be pretty close however.

Whenever I do an online buy(because I can't find it locally) I usually buy at least five books sometimes more. I compare both sites and most times amazon does come up cheaper, but not always. Last order amazon was about ten bucks cheaper.

I just compared five books(new releases) and all books on amazon were cheaper except one. Total saving for going with amazon was $2.33.

Looking at the % off, if I bought in the store at Barnes I would get it at the same or even cheaper. I would save even more since I'm a member. And I get coupons emailed to me on a regular basis(6 or 7 so far this year) for and additional 20% off, pretty sure you don't need to be a member to get those. Last hardcover I bought from them was 60% off.


Would love to have Barnes on my campus.

Prices for Paperbacks are generally the same, those are sold mass market as cheaply as possible, so there is generally very little markup on those. Hardcovers however are almost always 20% to 40% cheaper on Amazon. At B&N, with the exception of a handful of best sellers that they knock like 10% off the price on, you are generally going to pay the price that's listed on the book jacket for your hardcover. At Amazon they always beat that price by a large margin.


Probably just the way I shop then. I only buy a few of my favorite authors books in hardbacks. When I buy hardback it almost always has the 30% off sticker and 40% for members. Otherwise just not worth it imo.
 
2014-05-08 03:17:19 PM

spman: Physical media, print especially, is a dying business.


Oh, that's very fascinating to me. I read a lot myself. Some people think I'm too intellectual but I think it's a fabulous way to spend your spare time. I also play raquetball. Do you have any hobbies?
 
2014-05-08 03:23:37 PM

sendtodave: spman: sendtodave: I saved lots of money by committing theft!

In 99% of all cases I agree with your sarcasm completely, but the college textbook industry is an incredibly huge racket, and a major contributor to what makes going to school unaffordable for many people. These stupid books are marked up 100% and sometimes more above what they cost to produce, and they insist that schools only use the most recent edition which in many cases just means that the cover is changed, and some of the chapters are shuffled around. In the case of textbooks, I say anything that lets you have some advantage over the publishers that are trying to screw you is fine.

I totally agree.  It is better to steal expensive things.


You do understand that textbooks aren't "expensive" because market economics demand them to be, right? It literally is a scam, and organized racket where book publishers and and schools conspire to rob students blind by making them buy books they don't need, at prices that are inflated and not competitive. Two wrongs do not make a right, you are correct, but it's a natural market response to the problem.

Victoly: spman: Physical media, print especially, is a dying business.

Oh, that's very fascinating to me. I read a lot myself. Some people think I'm too intellectual but I think it's a fabulous way to spend your spare time. I also play raquetball. Do you have any hobbies?


I don't even understand what you are saying. Are you trying to tell me that physical media isn't dying, or that all these newspapers or magazines are ceasing publication because they just don't feel like being in existence anymore?
 
2014-05-08 03:34:40 PM

spman: You do understand that textbooks aren't "expensive" because market economics demand them to be, right? It literally is a scam, and organized racket where book publishers and and schools conspire to rob students blind by making them buy books they don't need, at prices that are inflated and not competitive.


So are diamonds.   Artificial scarcity is still scarcity.
 
2014-05-08 03:42:06 PM
Hyjamon:

the next step will then be students purchasing codes to access the 'digital' material...which will be the same price range as a physical book, but with the added bonus that when the code expires you won't even have something you can resell privately, keep in your library or burn for heat.

Unless the college is having all its material provided for free on the school server, that will be the next rounds of complaints.  Also, where will the 'free' material come from?  open source, professors creating their own? can't wait to hear the comments regarding the 'quality' of the digital material.


They're already doing some of that. General Chemistry I and II were both digital textbook only; it kind of sucks now that I'm in 400 level chemistry courses. It would have been nice to have a physical book to go back to as a reference for some basic equations that you haven't used lately and forgot during the time you were taking O-chem because you don't use them in there, but they come back in analytical chemistry or environmental chemistry.
 
2014-05-08 03:44:43 PM

sendtodave: spman: You do understand that textbooks aren't "expensive" because market economics demand them to be, right? It literally is a scam, and organized racket where book publishers and and schools conspire to rob students blind by making them buy books they don't need, at prices that are inflated and not competitive.

So are diamonds.   Artificial scarcity is still scarcity.


Yeah, except Diamonds aren't exactly essential to society, education is.
 
2014-05-08 03:49:51 PM

spman: sendtodave: spman: You do understand that textbooks aren't "expensive" because market economics demand them to be, right? It literally is a scam, and organized racket where book publishers and and schools conspire to rob students blind by making them buy books they don't need, at prices that are inflated and not competitive.

So are diamonds.   Artificial scarcity is still scarcity.

Yeah, except Diamonds aren't exactly essential to society, education is.


Have you been to America lately?
 
2014-05-08 03:56:53 PM

sendtodave: spman: You do understand that textbooks aren't "expensive" because market economics demand them to be, right? It literally is a scam, and organized racket where book publishers and and schools conspire to rob students blind by making them buy books they don't need, at prices that are inflated and not competitive.

So are diamonds.   Artificial scarcity is still scarcity.


most schools do not make a profit on the sale of books, hence most schools no longer have their own bookstores, but instead 'lease' the space to Folliet and other publisher/distributors.  Schools are held just as hostage as the students.  Also, financial aid will only cover books purchased at a bookstore.  Another example of how financial aid is creating a broken market.  The school and/or professors are not the problem.  just the publishers and financial aid.
 
2014-05-08 04:09:05 PM

Victoly: spman: Physical media, print especially, is a dying business.

Oh, that's very fascinating to me. I read a lot myself. Some people think I'm too intellectual but I think it's a fabulous way to spend your spare time. I also play raquetball. Do you have any hobbies?



Don't look at me like that, you got the bug eyes.

/
//sorry about the bug eyes thing
///I'll be in my office
 
2014-05-08 04:44:58 PM
I'm always fascinated when my classmates tell me how much they spent on their textbooks for the term. I thought torrents were mainstream already.
 
2014-05-08 05:22:41 PM

buzzcut73: They're already doing some of that. General Chemistry I and II were both digital textbook only; it kind of sucks now that I'm in 400 level chemistry courses. It would have been nice to have a physical book to go back to as a reference for some basic equations that you haven't used lately and forgot during the time you were taking O-chem because you don't use them in there, but they come back in analytical chemistry or environmental chemistry.


A) Assuming that they aren't "expired" digital formats (or you defanged any DRM attached to them), I'd probably just as soon have the digital format 3 years later.  I could see the paper being more comforting, but I'm pretty over carrying dead trees around.

B) The basic equations are the same in the General Chemistry I and II books that were released in 2009 (and the 2004, 2000, 1997, 1994, etc editions).  You can find those at your nearest library book-sale for $1 a copy or less.
 
2014-05-08 05:42:06 PM
Diamonds and textbooks are the two longest scams going for the last three decades.

/Both can DIAF
 
2014-05-08 05:48:01 PM

Hyjamon: Unless the college is having all its material provided for free on the school server, that will be the next rounds of complaints.  Also, where will the 'free' material come from?  open source, professors creating their own? can't wait to hear the comments regarding the 'quality' of the digital material.


Maybe this is my Communist side talking, but I wouldn't mind going back to how textbooks were published before the 1960s.

I have a whole collection of my state's K-12 textbooks from the 1930s and 40s.  Know how they were written?  The state contracted with PhDs at the state universities to update the material in a rolling cycle.  These books were released into the  public domain, believe it or not.  A state product, like a highway map or park brochure.  The state print shop ran off loads of copies and sold them to school districts at the cost of printing.

I did a little back of the envelope math once and figured that my state alone, for how much our districts were spending on just K-12 books (from Pearson, Houghton, etc) could afford to pay at least 100 different content experts 6-figure-salaries to do nothing but edit textbooks all day.  Release the books to cheap print-shops and online/e-book versions.  Even if every other state just "stole" my state's textbooks, my state would still be money ahead to do that over paying the current racket.
 
2014-05-08 07:43:35 PM

spman: sendtodave: spman: sendtodave: I saved lots of money by committing theft!

In 99% of all cases I agree with your sarcasm completely, but the college textbook industry is an incredibly huge racket, and a major contributor to what makes going to school unaffordable for many people. These stupid books are marked up 100% and sometimes more above what they cost to produce, and they insist that schools only use the most recent edition which in many cases just means that the cover is changed, and some of the chapters are shuffled around. In the case of textbooks, I say anything that lets you have some advantage over the publishers that are trying to screw you is fine.

I totally agree.  It is better to steal expensive things.

You do understand that textbooks aren't "expensive" because market economics demand them to be, right? It literally is a scam, and organized racket where book publishers and and schools conspire to rob students blind by making them buy books they don't need, at prices that are inflated and not competitive. Two wrongs do not make a right, you are correct, but it's a natural market response to the problem.

Victoly: spman: Physical media, print especially, is a dying business.

Oh, that's very fascinating to me. I read a lot myself. Some people think I'm too intellectual but I think it's a fabulous way to spend your spare time. I also play raquetball. Do you have any hobbies?

I don't even understand what you are saying. Are you trying to tell me that physical media isn't dying, or that all these newspapers or magazines are ceasing publication because they just don't feel like being in existence anymore?


Woosh!
 
2014-05-08 07:46:55 PM

HotIgneous Intruder: We need a gigantic public database of open-source textbooks in every subject.


Unfortunatly, thats wikipedia
 
2014-05-08 09:16:05 PM

spman: sendtodave: spman: sendtodave: I saved lots of money by committing theft!

In 99% of all cases I agree with your sarcasm completely, but the college textbook industry is an incredibly huge racket, and a major contributor to what makes going to school unaffordable for many people. These stupid books are marked up 100% and sometimes more above what they cost to produce, and they insist that schools only use the most recent edition which in many cases just means that the cover is changed, and some of the chapters are shuffled around. In the case of textbooks, I say anything that lets you have some advantage over the publishers that are trying to screw you is fine.

I totally agree.  It is better to steal expensive things.

You do understand that textbooks aren't "expensive" because market economics demand them to be, right? It literally is a scam, and organized racket where book publishers and and schools conspire to rob students blind by making them buy books they don't need, at prices that are inflated and not competitive. Two wrongs do not make a right, you are correct, but it's a natural market response to the problem.

Victoly: spman: Physical media, print especially, is a dying business.

Oh, that's very fascinating to me. I read a lot myself. Some people think I'm too intellectual but I think it's a fabulous way to spend your spare time. I also play raquetball. Do you have any hobbies?

I don't even understand what you are saying. Are you trying to tell me that physical media isn't dying, or that all these newspapers or magazines are ceasing publication because they just don't feel like being in existence anymore?


Yeah, it's a sign alright.

/ "Going outta business"
 
2014-05-08 10:52:08 PM

Lawnchair: Hyjamon: Unless the college is having all its material provided for free on the school server, that will be the next rounds of complaints.  Also, where will the 'free' material come from?  open source, professors creating their own? can't wait to hear the comments regarding the 'quality' of the digital material.

Maybe this is my Communist side talking, but I wouldn't mind going back to how textbooks were published before the 1960s.

I have a whole collection of my state's K-12 textbooks from the 1930s and 40s.  Know how they were written?  The state contracted with PhDs at the state universities to update the material in a rolling cycle.  These books were released into the  public domain, believe it or not.  A state product, like a highway map or park brochure.  The state print shop ran off loads of copies and sold them to school districts at the cost of printing.

I did a little back of the envelope math once and figured that my state alone, for how much our districts were spending on just K-12 books (from Pearson, Houghton, etc) could afford to pay at least 100 different content experts 6-figure-salaries to do nothing but edit textbooks all day.  Release the books to cheap print-shops and online/e-book versions.  Even if every other state just "stole" my state's textbooks, my state would still be money ahead to do that over paying the current racket.


That sounds like a damned fine use of my tax dollars and I would be proud to support it!
 
2014-05-08 11:08:18 PM

Booyaxe: Victoly: spman: Physical media, print especially, is a dying business.

Oh, that's very fascinating to me. I read a lot myself. Some people think I'm too intellectual but I think it's a fabulous way to spend your spare time. I also play raquetball. Do you have any hobbies?


Don't look at me like that, you got the bug eyes.

/
//sorry about the bug eyes thing
///I'll be in my office


Type something, will ya? We're paying for this.
 
2014-05-09 02:32:38 AM

Lawnchair: Hyjamon: Unless the college is having all its material provided for free on the school server, that will be the next rounds of complaints.  Also, where will the 'free' material come from?  open source, professors creating their own? can't wait to hear the comments regarding the 'quality' of the digital material.

Maybe this is my Communist side talking, but I wouldn't mind going back to how textbooks were published before the 1960s.

I have a whole collection of my state's K-12 textbooks from the 1930s and 40s.  Know how they were written?  The state contracted with PhDs at the state universities to update the material in a rolling cycle.  These books were released into the  public domain, believe it or not.  A state product, like a highway map or park brochure.  The state print shop ran off loads of copies and sold them to school districts at the cost of printing.

I did a little back of the envelope math once and figured that my state alone, for how much our districts were spending on just K-12 books (from Pearson, Houghton, etc) could afford to pay at least 100 different content experts 6-figure-salaries to do nothing but edit textbooks all day.  Release the books to cheap print-shops and online/e-book versions.  Even if every other state just "stole" my state's textbooks, my state would still be money ahead to do that over paying the current racket.


Education corporations are goddamned awful.  Awful.  I don't want to say that I'm  against Common Core, but I think the implementation of it is going to suck, and I think that almost entirely because Pearson, Houghton, etc are for it.
 
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