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3702 clicks; posted to Politics » on 08 May 2014 at 9:50 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-08 01:47:12 AM  
FTFA: Our approach as a party should be one of neither denial nor extremism.

This could be said about the GOP's approach to virtually every issue, and yet that's never stopped them before, has it?

Not while I've been alive, at least.
 
2014-05-08 02:23:29 AM  
So long as industry needs shelter from encroaching legislation, they're going to try damn hard, I think.

Look at the amount of time and effort it took to get just lead out of gasoline. Look at the uphill fight that was alone. And for a lot of us, that was before our time, but the dangers were known in the twenties. Roll that around a bit. A fifty year gap between knowing the dangers, and finally doing something about it in a substantive measure. Because there was profit, and no one wanted to buck the system. Even KNOWING that it was toxic, that it was accruing, and the industry put up how much of a dang fight?

That's just for lead.

When you are talking about looking at industrial processes, transportation, and more, across the board?  Folks are going to wait until there are glaciers creeping down past Milwaukee and swallowing all of Saskatoon and Calgary before some folks will admit that maybe something ought to be done.

Which will be far too damn late. Ice melt, shutting down currents, changes in weather patterns across the globe, locking up of that fresh water up again, lack of thermohaline circulation by that time, and we're perhaps not talking the end of all life as we know it. Humans will probably survive. Civilization as we know it? Maybe not so much. That is the worst case scenario, and that relies on people being absolutely intransigent against doing anything substantive to slow things down. More likely, folks will finally get their heads out of their asses, and actually look at data after some fairly scary pictures start to emerge from data, and storm seasons roll out further and further, and droughts and changes in weather patterns start to get kookier. Not just glaciers calving and receding, or the caps shrinking, but effects that put folks' money at risk. And then folks are going to look down the road, realize that migrations, customer bases, and their own homes and refuges are probably going to get swallowed up in all sorts of badness, and then we'll see some movement towards listening. But probably not until there's real damage.

And that damage will be considered by many, and spun into "they just didn't know any better." And it will be as much a dirty lie as with the gasoline industry and effects of lead spewed from exhaust.

So, yeah, I think that we'll see a lot of folks demanding more studies and more data, until it just simply can't be ignored because of sheer damage, death, and potential for real harm. We aren't there yet. If folks can ignore the effects of lead in the atmosphere for fifty years, we're just looking at the beginnings of denial on this issue. We aren't even at the half way mark yet.
 
2014-05-08 09:26:34 AM  
Huntsman should run against Hillary as a Democrat.
 
2014-05-08 09:31:16 AM  

make me some tea: Huntsman should run against Hillary as a Democrat.


personally, I think a Huntsman vs. Warren election will be the most intelligent political debate we've had in probably a century.
 
2014-05-08 09:51:19 AM  

Emposter: FTFA: Our approach as a party should be one of neither denial nor extremism.

This could be said about the GOP's approach to virtually every issue, and yet that's never stopped them before, has it?

Not while I've been alive, at least.


denial to extremism is a big range.  I assume they are going to go with neutral apathy.  Maybe just ask a bunch of questions about the "science".  Not deny but may suggest we don't have all the answers yet.  That should buy them another 10 years of not accepting it.
 
2014-05-08 09:54:16 AM  
they don't ignore it, they say it is fake and even if it is real god will just fix it.
 
2014-05-08 09:55:37 AM  
The GOP Plan for the Environment:

1. Foul up the environment
2. Blame it on the Democrats, the liberals, and the population who didn't pray to Republican Jesus loudly enough

3. Retire to Koch-sponsored Breathing Zones.
 
2014-05-08 10:01:41 AM  
The average Republican voter is between 70 years old and death.  They are quite willing to, "Wait till we're actually 100% sure it exits before we even consider imposing more rules on businesses" because they will be dead before the impact is felt.
 
2014-05-08 10:01:59 AM  

somedude210: make me some tea: Huntsman should run against Hillary as a Democrat.

personally, I think a Huntsman vs. Warren election will be the most intelligent political debate we've had in probably a century.


would be fun to see huntsman trying to justify his support of a constitutional amendment to make abortion illegal
 
2014-05-08 10:02:13 AM  
At least their seems to be movement towards acceptance. They are like my 2 year olds used to be when it was nap time- kicking and screaming and doing everything to avoid it. But eventually they run out of energy and accept the eventuality of it all.
 
2014-05-08 10:02:40 AM  

make me some tea: Huntsman should run against Hillary as a Democrat.


Wouldn't be far-fetched to see him becoming a Democrat.  Supposedly his father is the one that leaked to Harry Reid that Romney didn't pay taxes for 10 years.
 
2014-05-08 10:02:48 AM  
The G.O.P. Can't Ignore Climate Change


Au contraire.  The GOP is paid handsomely by their corporate masters to ignore climate change.  They can't not ignore climate change.
 
2014-05-08 10:04:40 AM  
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." --
Upton Sinclair
 
2014-05-08 10:05:25 AM  

make me some tea: Huntsman should run against Hillary as a Democrat.


*FART*

Look at his platform again and reconsider if anything he has on there isn't opposed to pretty much everything the Democrats stand for.
 
2014-05-08 10:08:40 AM  

TV's Vinnie: The GOP Plan for the Environment:

1. Foul up the environment
2. Blame it on the Democrats, the liberals, and the population who didn't pray to Republican Jesus loudly enough

3. Retire to Koch-sponsored Breathing Zones.


deathandtaxesmag.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com
 
2014-05-08 10:09:18 AM  
when climate change destroys our civilization, the GOP will be discredited and Democrats will probably end up having a monopoly on power over the ashes of our society. And we all know that leaders can get away with some pretty farked up shiat under extreme or apocalyptic conditions. The GOP is going to miss out on participating in that.
 
2014-05-08 10:11:49 AM  

sprawl15: somedude210: make me some tea: Huntsman should run against Hillary as a Democrat.

personally, I think a Huntsman vs. Warren election will be the most intelligent political debate we've had in probably a century.

would be fun to see huntsman trying to justify his support of a constitutional amendment to make abortion illegal


I just don't understand the love for Huntsman- had the Fox News/Limbaugh/Beck influence on the GOP not inspired them to go full retard, he'd be a pretty standard, run of the mill Republican.
 
2014-05-08 10:12:01 AM  

Job Creator: Wouldn't be far-fetched to see him becoming a Democrat


Even a decade ago it would have been surprising; he's pretty right wing economically.

Right now it wouldn't be shocking because being right-wing economically and a moderate on everything else makes you ideologically a mainstream Democrat.
 
2014-05-08 10:14:12 AM  
I can see it now:

ok, we give up.  Climate Change is real and caused by man.  To address this problem, we need more tax cuts for large business so they can "adapt"
 
2014-05-08 10:14:51 AM  

Gunther: Job Creator: Wouldn't be far-fetched to see him becoming a Democrat

Even a decade ago it would have been surprising; he's pretty right wing economically.

Right now it wouldn't be shocking because being right-wing economically and a moderate on everything else makes you ideologically a mainstream Democrat.


Democrats support cutting more taxes on the wealthy and further gutting the social infrastructure now? How are you all defining "right wing economically" otherwise?

Dammit Fark is usually better informed than this.
 
2014-05-08 10:16:07 AM  

Crotchrocket Slim: he'd be a pretty standard, run of the mill Republican.


Which in itself would be refreshing, as it is we only have completely batshiat insane extreme republicans.

I know, I dream.....
 
2014-05-08 10:16:18 AM  
Republicans nominated the wrong Mormon in 2012.

And Fox News is already making fun of and scoffing at the climate report. The echo chamber has spoken so you know damn well nothing will be done until they no longer have a grip on Congress.
 
2014-05-08 10:16:58 AM  
They can ignore it until it becomes a political vulnerability. When that happens is hard to say, but when it does happen, you can bet the switch will be quick and complete - as in: "We were on the side of the scientists from the beginning!"
 
2014-05-08 10:16:59 AM  
If our descendants need our resources so bad, let them make time machines to come back and fight us for them.
 
2014-05-08 10:17:30 AM  

Crotchrocket Slim: I just don't understand the love for Huntsman- had the Fox News/Limbaugh/Beck influence on the GOP not inspired them to go full retard, he'd be a pretty standard, run of the mill Republican.


It's like saving an endangered species.  Sure, there's nothing particularly interesting when there's millions of them running around, but if you're down to a handful you capture people's hearts.
 
2014-05-08 10:19:43 AM  

hubiestubert: until there are glaciers creeping down past Milwaukee and swallowing all of Saskatoon and Calgary


Now I'm confused.
 
2014-05-08 10:20:25 AM  
Huntsman from TFA: Our approach as a party should be one of neither denial nor extremism.

While in some sense perhaps it SHOULD be, but both those seem to be what the main GOP approaches ARE. Good luck with that.

mrshowrules: denial to extremism is a big range. I assume they are going to go with neutral apathy. Maybe just ask a bunch of questions about the "science". Not deny but may suggest we don't have all the answers yet. That should buy them another 10 years of not accepting it.


The major flavors of climate denialism seem to range from "The concept is absurd", to "It's not happening", to "It's not humans at fault", to "Warming isn't harmful", to "It's too expensive to stop or slow it".

Huntsman may merely be in the zone of "Do we have to spend THAT much?"
 
2014-05-08 10:20:54 AM  

Crotchrocket Slim: Democrats support cutting more taxes on the wealthy and further gutting the social infrastructure now? How are you all defining "right wing economically" otherwise?


There's plenty of "blue dogs" that favor deregulation and tax cuts. Perhaps he wouldn't be mainstream but he'd be accepted into the party.
 
2014-05-08 10:22:30 AM  
Wow...only rarely have a seen a more accurate headline on Fark.

Take a bow, Subby! **thumbsup**
 
2014-05-08 10:22:38 AM  

blastoh: I can see it now:

ok, we give up.  Climate Change is real and caused by man.  To address this problem, we need more tax cuts for large business so they can "adapt"


came to say this. well done
 
2014-05-08 10:22:59 AM  

Crotchrocket Slim: Democrats support cutting more taxes on the wealthy and further gutting the social infrastructure now?


That's what they've been doing and what president Obama, the biggest liberal who ever libbed, has been signing into law.
 
2014-05-08 10:24:19 AM  

TV's Vinnie: The GOP Plan for the Environment:

1. Foul up the environment


This also works well with the GOP Healthcare Plan.
 
2014-05-08 10:24:35 AM  
Jon Hunstman wrote this. I remember how much his party listened to him during the last presidential election.
 
2014-05-08 10:24:54 AM  

Crotchrocket Slim: I just don't understand the love for Huntsman- had the Fox News/Limbaugh/Beck influence on the GOP not inspired them to go full retard, he'd be a pretty standard, run of the mill Republican.


overton window in action

in 2020 some gop governor will stand on stage and declare that maybe it is not a good idea to literally stick one's hand into a blender and he will be hailed as a moderate
 
2014-05-08 10:31:12 AM  
Any article that takes the format "the sensible course of action for the republican party would be [x]" pretty much guarantees [x] will be disavowed as crazytalk, by the party-at-large.
 
2014-05-08 10:32:53 AM  
"While there is room for some skepticism given the uncertainty about the magnitude of climate change, the fact is that the planet is warming, and failing to deal with this reality will leave us vulnerable - and possibly worse."
-FTA

-Skepticism is the answer to the problem of Realism.

-The agenda will not be dictated by facts.

-Reality is for those who can't handle the fantasy.

//Cheers
 
2014-05-08 10:33:45 AM  

gnosis301: If our descendants need our resources so bad, let them make time machines to come back and fight us for them.


Who says we aren't fighting them already?
 
2014-05-08 10:38:28 AM  

hubiestubert: Look at the amount of time and effort it took to get just lead out of gasoline. Look at the uphill fight that was alone. And for a lot of us, that was before our time, but the dangers were known in the twenties. Roll that around a bit. A fifty year gap between knowing the dangers, and finally doing something about it in a substantive measure. Because there was profit, and no one wanted to buck the system. Even KNOWING that it was toxic, that it was accruing, and the industry put up how much of a dang fight?


At least 13 fires have been reported on the Cuyahoga River, the first occurring in 1868.[12] The largest river fire in 1952 caused over $1 million in damage to boats and a riverfront office building.[13] Fires erupted on the river several times between the 1952 fire and June 22, 1969, when a river fire that day captured the attention of Time magazine, which described the Cuyahoga as the river that "oozes rather than flows" and in which a person "does not drown but decays".[14] The fire did eventually spark major changes as well as the article from Time, but in the immediate aftermath very little attention was given to the incident.

Over 100 years of flammable rivers.

People seem to think that stuff gets cleaned up quickly for some reason.  It never goes.

Like Beijing smog.  It's terrible.  And in forty years, they might do something about it.
 
2014-05-08 10:39:04 AM  

GoldSpider: gnosis301: If our descendants need our resources so bad, let them make time machines to come back and fight us for them.

Who says we aren't fighting them already?


Whoaa.
 
2014-05-08 10:40:07 AM  
Never does.  Even.
 
2014-05-08 10:40:40 AM  

Flargan: -Skepticism is the answer to the problem of Realism.


Real skepticism is realism.  These douche-bags are ruining the term.

How skepticism works:
"Please provide me objective, measurable data that ties your hypothesis about things to the real world in a useful way that controls for other variables."
"But I'm really psychic, I totally saw that coming"
"Here's a test that will allow you to demonstrate your abilities, if they work as described"
"shiat.  Oh well, even though I failed that test, I'm still psychic"

How "skepticism" works:
"Please provide incontrovertible proof that no other possible explanation could exist for the hard data you've provided"
"Well, here are the other possible factors we controlled for"
"Those don't count, also what about the sun"
"We just demonstrated that we controlled for the sun right there"
"Doesn't count"
 
2014-05-08 10:42:45 AM  
If Republicans can get to a place where science drives our thinking and actions, then we will be able to make progress.

Well, you could start by kicking all the Creationists to the curb.
 
2014-05-08 10:43:12 AM  

Courtney Love's Genital Warts: hubiestubert: until there are glaciers creeping down past Milwaukee and swallowing all of Saskatoon and Calgary

Now I'm confused.


Worst case with climate change isn't rising waters. That's a transitory effect, if we keep losing ice at the poles. The worst case is that fresh water from that ice is dumped, which slows or even stops thermohaline circulation. That inhibits energy transfers with currents. That means a lot of water no longer moves the way they used to, and that means a lot of things happen. Or rather, don't happen. Weather patterns get screwed up, currents slow or even stop. That means not only do we see patterns that folks have settled to exploit get screwed up, fishing is likewise going to tank, as migration patterns get hosed. At the same time these pattens get screwed up, there is also the bounce back as fresh water freezes at higher temps than salt water. Which in worst case scenarios means, yeah, we get some spikes and some possible flooding, and then as things bounce back, a LOT of fresh water freezes at the poles. And by a lot, we are talking Ice Age proportions. Ice caps re-freeze, and grow, which can start a lot of glacier movement. Not to mention as those suckers move, they reflect a lot of energy that would normally be absorbed by the system. Which means, further cooling.

That's worst case. That's the worst possible outcome. Possible. Not necessarily likely, but it's the one that a lot of folks don't look at. They're looking at RIGHT NOW. Not long term. And with climate change, we HAVE to look at long term. And even with cutting down on fossil fuels, we are still going to have to look at our own waste heat in the long term. Population in my forty some odd years, has gone from 4 billion, to nearly 7 billion--some estimates put it at over 7 billion, but let's just go ballpark, of 3/4 increase in just 40 years. That's a lot of folks, and the population is still growing. That many people, and increasingly industrialized societies, that makes for a LOT of waste heat, and that's going to grow as well. Energy consumption and generation, and industry puts out not just CO2, but also just plain heat. At some point, we're going to have to look at not just our chemical output, but the waste heat for 8 billion souls. Then maybe 10. Or possibly see a crash as things go FUBAR.

And instead of looking at long term, folks are worried about their present bottom line. They're worried about their current customer base. And at some point, we really need to look forward, and think about possible consequences, and not just about how many Chinese there are compared to the American population, or their market penetration...
 
2014-05-08 10:43:19 AM  

ikanreed: Real skepticism is realism. These douche-bags are ruining the term.


I know.
 
MFK
2014-05-08 10:43:54 AM  

blastoh: I can see it now:

ok, we give up.  Climate Change is real and caused by man.  To address this problem, we need more tax cuts for large business so they can "adapt"



i'mokwiththat.jpg

This is how you get it done fast. You start actually enforcing corporate tax rates and then offer deep cuts for polluting companies that take real and measurable steps to adapt to a more green operating platform. Instead of handing their CEO an outsized pay package, you re-invest earnings back into the company to not only make sure it's viable in the long term but also that there is a long term at all.
 
2014-05-08 10:45:29 AM  

ikanreed: Any article that takes the format "the sensible course of action for the republican party would be [x]" pretty much guarantees [x] will be disavowed as crazytalk, by the party-at-large.


Yep, anyone who thinks the GOP is going to be "moderating" their policies and goals on any issue anytime soon is deluding themselves...

Remember, they still think their problem is just how they're presenting their farked up regressive nonsense to the public, not the actual farked up regressive nonsense these clowns spew forth on a daily basis.
 
2014-05-08 10:45:36 AM  

Karac: TV's Vinnie: The GOP Plan for the Environment:

1. Foul up the environment
2. Blame it on the Democrats, the liberals, and the population who didn't pray to Republican Jesus loudly enough
2.5 Profit
3. Retire to Koch-sponsored Breathing Zones.

FTFY

 
2014-05-08 10:47:57 AM  
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please stop posting crap like this..
 
2014-05-08 10:50:03 AM  

keylock71: ikanreed: Any article that takes the format "the sensible course of action for the republican party would be [x]" pretty much guarantees [x] will be disavowed as crazytalk, by the party-at-large.

Yep, anyone who thinks the GOP is going to be "moderating" their policies and goals on any issue anytime soon is deluding themselves...

Remember, they still think their problem is just how they're presenting their farked up regressive nonsense to the public, not the actual farked up regressive nonsense these clowns spew forth on a daily basis.


To be fair, we're all just hairless apes, and primitive perspectives are naturally appealing.  "Thog strong, thog smash bad other tribe" is an incredibly powerful message to the human psyche, and it's a testament to progress that they're sugarcoating that message.
 
2014-05-08 10:51:22 AM  

somedude210: make me some tea: Huntsman should run against Hillary as a Democrat.

personally, I think a Huntsman vs. Warren election will be the most intelligent political debate we've had in probably a century.


Love it.
 
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