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(The New York Times)   Montana homeowner exercises his rights under the Deadly Force in Defense of a Half-Rack of Beer Act   (nytimes.com) divider line 490
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6261 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 May 2014 at 6:41 PM (23 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-07 04:39:30 PM  
FTA: But just up the road, two recent burglaries had made Mr. Kaarma and his partner, Janelle Pflager, feel like targets inside their home, Mr. Kaarma's lawyer said. Someone had entered their open garage - the couple kept it open so they could duck out to smoke cigarettes - and stolen a wallet and credit cards, Mr. Ryan, the lawyer said. The break-ins rattled the couple, who are first-time parents with a 10-month-old.

Ms. Pflager bought motion sensors and a video camera to track the intruders should they return, and put a purse with some marked belongings inside, so that they could be traced to anyone who stole them. Mr. Ryan said the purse was sitting in the back of the garage and had not been placed there to lure anyone in.

A hairstylist named Felene Sherbondy told the police that Mr. Kaarma had come into the Great Clips salon three days before the shooting and talked about how he had been waiting up with his shotgun for three nights "to shoot some kid." Ms. Sherbondy told the police that Mr. Kaarma was being "extremely vulgar and belligerent," according to court documents.


Shooting a burgler in defense of your home and family is OK by me. BUT, I take exception that the couple kept their garage door open to smoke cigarettes even after items were stolen from the garage. And, if Ms. Sherbondy's statements are accurate, sounds like Mr. Kaarma was gunning to shoot somebody for petty thief and trespassing, not breaking and entering and/or endangering one's self and family.
 
2014-05-07 05:17:05 PM  
Kaarma's a biatch.
 
2014-05-07 06:17:05 PM  

AirForceVet: if Ms. Sherbondy's statements are accurate, sounds like Mr. Kaarma was gunning to shoot somebody for petty thief and trespassing, not breaking and entering and/or endangering one's self and family


My father used to sit around in the dark at night waiting for someone to break into the house so he could shoot them.  We always made sure we made lots of noise when we came home late.  We lived way out on an estate, and the other local dads did the same damn thing.  It's a wonder no one was killed.
 
2014-05-07 06:44:45 PM  
Why the fark would you shoot blindly into your garage? What if it was the neighbors dog? Or a neighbor in need of help and the garage was closer than the front door?
 
2014-05-07 06:46:59 PM  

AirForceVet: Shooting a burgler in defense of your home and family is OK by me. BUT, I take exception that the couple kept their garage door open to smoke cigarettes even after items were stolen from the garage. And, if Ms. Sherbondy's statements are accurate, sounds like Mr. Kaarma was gunning to shoot somebody for petty thief and trespassing, not breaking and entering and/or endangering one's self and family.


He didn't even check if it was a burglar, neighbor, lost person, he just hosed down his own garage with every shogun shell in the gun.
 
2014-05-07 06:47:31 PM  
you know, call me crazy but when i was a kid in a rural part of the country, we got into the occasional shenanigans and nobody had to shoot anyone else to deal with it. killing a teenage for doing something dumb doesn't seem like a very succesful long term strategy for our species as a whole.
 
2014-05-07 06:47:33 PM  
The homeowner has every right to shoot a burglar in his home. Now, if the burglar was running away and the guy shot him in the back, that would be different, but in this case, it is clearly justified.

/you trying to steal my beer!?!?!?!
//how about a few rounds from my AR-47????
///BAM BAM BAM *thud*
////*sits on the corpse, cracks open a cold beer, and waits for cops to arrive
 
JVD
2014-05-07 06:49:24 PM  
Don't go trespassing where you don't belong. Pretty simple concept.
 
2014-05-07 06:49:25 PM  
crazy people on the outskirts of crazyville do crazy things because there is nothing else to do... what's new
 
rka
2014-05-07 06:49:37 PM  
Firing four shots blindly in the dark is in pretty poor judgement if you ask me.

First thing that jumped out at me...Germans decrying "cowboy culture". Yeah..no shiat. It's Montana. It definitely IS cowboy culture. It's like decrying Bavarian culture in Munich.

My house was burgled last year so I know the feeling this guy felt. We were home at the time and only knew something was going on when the dog started going apeshiat at the top of the stairs. Scared them off but they did get my wife's laptop and purse as well as my wallet. (both recovered a few weeks later over the fence in our neighbors garden, everything intact except the cash). Even contemplated buying a handgun. But I'd never, ever fire it blindly in the dark over something in my garage.
 
2014-05-07 06:51:01 PM  
It sounds like he exercised his rights.  The law should probably be changed, but I do sympathize considering how i felt after being a robbery victim
 
2014-05-07 06:51:05 PM  
Racking a boomstick is usually enough to make them shiat their pants and run. Now, granted, you would have to clean up the mess, but no dead body...
 
2014-05-07 06:51:12 PM  
2 things could have stopped this:

A) Take away the right to own firearms and defend one's property/family.

B) Don't sneak into someone else home/garage in the middle of the night to steal things.

Probably should go with A as that'll give people warm and fuzzies.

To the 'call the police' crowd, good luck in most cities. Some of the best cities hope for 10-12 minutes. I'm betting in the middle of the night in Fort Missoula, Montana that you'd be closer to 20-30min.

Although I wouldn't have opposed turning on the light first...
 
2014-05-07 06:51:36 PM  
i394.photobucket.com
 
2014-05-07 06:52:03 PM  
Firing shotguns randomly into the dark. Where his cars are. How did he know it wasn't someone he knew? The baby monitor? Then he would also know the kid was unarmed.


Ladies and gentlemen, huzzah for another Responsible Gun OwnerTM
 
2014-05-07 06:52:08 PM  
Not surprising, some people are still pissed off over Pearl Harbor.
 
2014-05-07 06:52:12 PM  
Sometimes, your only purpose in life is to be a bad example.  In this case, there are two great examples of bad examples.
 
2014-05-07 06:52:45 PM  
Really the best way to avoid situations like this is to not break into someone's house to steal their stuff.
 
2014-05-07 06:53:10 PM  
i1207.photobucket.com
 
2014-05-07 06:53:20 PM  
At least he got to see Montana.
 
2014-05-07 06:53:46 PM  
You give Bud a bad name.
 
2014-05-07 06:54:16 PM  

cabbyman: Really the best way to avoid situations like this is to not break into someone's house to steal their stuff.


Is it really breaking in if the door is open?
 
2014-05-07 06:54:19 PM  

MichiganFTL: 2 things could have stopped this:

A) Take away the right to own firearms and defend one's property/family.

B) Don't sneak into someone else home/garage in the middle of the night to steal things.

Probably should go with A as that'll give people warm and fuzzies.

To the 'call the police' crowd, good luck in most cities. Some of the best cities hope for 10-12 minutes. I'm betting in the middle of the night in Fort Missoula, Montana that you'd be closer to 20-30min.

Although I wouldn't have opposed turning on the light first...


To be fair, there are more than two things that could have stopped it from happening.  But I don't feel like being fair, so I'll make you guess what some of them might be.  Don't hurt yourself.
 
2014-05-07 06:54:36 PM  
It does sound like Rambo was out to shoot somebody. Shame it wasn't a family member.
 
2014-05-07 06:55:01 PM  
Shouldn't have been stealing stuff; should he?
 
2014-05-07 06:56:26 PM  
He aimed into the garage and, according to court documents, fired four blasts into the dark.

No.  Just no.
 
2014-05-07 06:56:49 PM  

iheartscotch: Shouldn't have been stealing stuff; should he?


No, he shouldn't.  That's why the penalty for petty theft is immediate death without trial.
 
2014-05-07 06:57:12 PM  

AirForceVet: I take exception that the couple kept their garage door open to smoke cigarettes even after items were stolen from the garage.


Fark that.  It's their home and their property.  They shouldn't have to "justify" keeping their garage open.

If you're living in a state with Castle Doctrine that allows a homeowner to shoot at an intruder, then don't be an intruder.  Mr. Dede's death is frankly pretty dammed tragic (moreso because he's an immigrant), and Mr. Kaarma might well be guilty of a homicide depending on the specifics of what went down in the garage.  The kid drops to his knees and yells "Hey! Wait!" and the old dude punches him out?  That's a felony homicide.  The kid takes some steps toward the old dude and yells "Hey!", and the old dude yells, "wait!", and then fires?  That's not a felony homicide.

EITHER of those possibilities are feasible given the information in TFA.  The only things we can say for certain is that the kid is dead, the old dude shot him, and if the kid hadn't been in the old dude's garage in the first place, he wouldn't have gotten shot.

/no, I don't care if people feel it's "a penalty not proportionate to the crime".  The law states that if you break in, and the homeowner thinks you're a threat, lethal force is authorized.  That MAKES the penalty explicitly proportional to the crime in the eyes of the law.
 
2014-05-07 06:57:46 PM  
The bar for gun ownership in this country is way too low.

Past time to repeal the 2nd.
 
2014-05-07 06:58:28 PM  
FTA: He aimed into the garage and, according to court documents, fired four blasts into the dark.

Well I certainly hope the home owner feels like an asshole.
 
2014-05-07 06:58:28 PM  

zarker: Why the fark would you shoot blindly into your garage? What if it was the neighbors dog? Or a neighbor in need of help and the garage was closer than the front door?


Well he had a baby monitor so he at least knew it wasn't a dog but a person in need of feeding and a diaper change.
 
2014-05-07 06:59:23 PM  

Raoul Eaton: iheartscotch: Shouldn't have been stealing stuff; should he?

No, he shouldn't.  That's why the penalty for petty theft is immediate death without trial.


Yes, it can be, depending on whether the person whose stuff your pettily stealing feels threatened by your presence.

If you don't like it, then don't steal other people's crap, or change the law.
 
2014-05-07 07:00:23 PM  
And did he call the cops first? Did he try and flee to safety and then call the cops? No, he just starts shooting willy nilly. You going to jail dumbass.
 
2014-05-07 07:00:26 PM  

FightDirector: Raoul Eaton: iheartscotch: Shouldn't have been stealing stuff; should he?

No, he shouldn't.  That's why the penalty for petty theft is immediate death without trial.

Yes, it can be, depending on whether the person whose stuff your you're pettily stealing feels threatened by your presence.

If you don't like it, then don't steal other people's crap, or change the law.


Dammit.  FTFM.

/hockey threads need to go green soon.  I'm getting belligerent.
 
2014-05-07 07:00:30 PM  
The shooter claims he wasnt trying to bait anyone, but he left the garage open despite the prior break in, and had marked items for someone to steal.

He was looking for an excuse to kill someone. This is turning into the same case as the old guy who murdered the teenagers who broke into his house.

Only in this case, this asshole didn't try to move the body or finish'em off, etc.
 
2014-05-07 07:02:51 PM  

FightDirector: Raoul Eaton: iheartscotch: Shouldn't have been stealing stuff; should he?

No, he shouldn't.  That's why the penalty for petty theft is immediate death without trial.

Yes, it can be, depending on whether the person whose stuff your pettily stealing feels threatened by your presence.

If you don't like it, then don't steal other people's crap, or change the law.


Oh, ok.  It's reassuring to know that whether a bonehead teenager lives or dies depends on someone else's "feelings."
 
2014-05-07 07:03:38 PM  

Mark Ratner: The homeowner has every right to shoot a burglar in his home.


No. He doesn't.
 
2014-05-07 07:04:14 PM  

edmo: And did he call the cops first? Did he try and flee to safety and then call the cops? No, he just starts shooting willy nilly. You going to jail dumbass.


He may well be, but not for any of the reasons you stated. Laws, how do they work.
 
2014-05-07 07:04:25 PM  

JVD: Don't go trespassing where you don't belong. Pretty simple concept.


Thank you.
It's a good law. Knowing you can get your arse blown off if you B&E is a good deterrent.
But sometimes this happens.


I grew up in Montana and I remember "raiding gardens". Basically you find a nice ripe garden and steal their watermelon. Thrilling, I know...but it's Montana. It actually is pretty exciting, when you're a kid...right up to the point that someone shoots your arse or back full of rock salt. Quickly not so fun.
But that was the price we paid. Never even considered we could get killed.

Poor kid.
 
2014-05-07 07:05:51 PM  
www.recorder.com

/Approves
 
2014-05-07 07:06:19 PM  

Raoul Eaton: FightDirector: Raoul Eaton: iheartscotch: Shouldn't have been stealing stuff; should he?

No, he shouldn't.  That's why the penalty for petty theft is immediate death without trial.

Yes, it can be, depending on whether the person whose stuff your pettily stealing feels threatened by your presence.

If you don't like it, then don't steal other people's crap, or change the law.

Oh, ok.  It's reassuring to know that whether a bonehead teenager lives or dies depends on someone else's "feelings."


Hey, if you wanna use your roll of the life dice on breaking into others people's homes, all for it. I'll use mine on skydiving.
 
2014-05-07 07:06:25 PM  
Hard to take a side here...he wasn't baiting them into breaking into his house like the guy that parked his car down the road to make it look like nobody was home.  He did leave his garage door open, which, while stupid, still doesn't excuse the idiots from helping themselves to his belongings.  On the other hand, he walked outside and blindly opened fire into the garage through the partially closed door.  That takes the pants-shiatting conservative coward to a whole other level.  There was no threat to him, and if he was concerned about his belongings all he to do was state in a loud and firm voice that whoever was in there was to come out slowly with their hands up or he was going to supply them with some added ventilation holes.  There was no excuse for this coward to open fire the way he did other than him being a talk radio obsessing cretin with an absolutely broken sense of morality.  And I bet he goes to church every Sunday.
 
2014-05-07 07:07:10 PM  
Break into someone's house (a garage is a part of the house, mind you), and you best be ready for action. Like it or not, but that's how it rolls.
 
2014-05-07 07:07:11 PM  

FightDirector: Raoul Eaton: iheartscotch: Shouldn't have been stealing stuff; should he?

No, he shouldn't.  That's why the penalty for petty theft is immediate death without trial.

Yes, it can be, depending on whether the person whose stuff your pettily stealing feels threatened by your presence.


From the article, he didn't feel threatened. He felt affronted. And I bet all the asshole gun-nut rhetoric recently made him feel entitled.
 
2014-05-07 07:07:43 PM  
Even if the reports of 'baiting' turn out to be true, it makes no difference. If I leave a Monet and 10 gold bricks on my front lawn, you're still a filthy, rotten, worthless criminal if you try to take them. Violate my property and I'll use any force necessary to remove your threat. Given that anyone, even a child, can obtain a weapon or be under the influence of mind-altering substances, that leaves lethal force as a valid option in nearly all cases. IF you feel safe enough to escalate slower, my respect to you. If you don't, well, you're rights trump a criminals rights every time.

It's more important to protect the rights of the non-criminal in all instances. Anyone who chooses to violate the law, and basic morality, by victimizing someone else deserves any bad thing that happens to them as a result of their actions/choices. Period.
 
2014-05-07 07:08:05 PM  
Ironically, when I lived in Germany, a friend and I used to raid "garten platz." The Germans have these little plots of land with a small garden shed where they go on the weekends and garden and relax. They grow fruit and etc. In summer, they're ripe for the picking.

We never got shot because there are few guns in Germany, thank goodness.
 
2014-05-07 07:08:15 PM  
If things had been stolen out of my garage, my first step would have been to make sure the door was closed and locked from then on. "Gosh, I just don't understand it. Things keep disappearing from my unlocked garage! I think I'd better continue to leave the door open and unlocked, and then see what happens."

Anyone with half a brain would instantly realize that going into a garage with the door left unlocked and open and pilfering things is something that teenaged kids do, not serious burglars. This sounds like a case of setting a trap for revenge to me.

CSB: A guy I used to work with told me about how, when the Quiet Riot song Come On Feel The Noise was popular where he lived, the local record store was sold out. He and a friend were walking in a residential neighborhood one evening, and a girl drove by with that song blaring out the open windows of her car. She pulled into a garage, and left the front door of the garage open as she went into the house. His friend ran into the garage, ejected the cassette from her car stereo, and the two of them ran off. He got away with it, except it wasn't a Quiet Riot tape; the song had been playing on the radio. Teenagers do dumb things, some of them criminal. You don't kill them for it, even if you can get away with it.
 
2014-05-07 07:08:18 PM  

strangeluck: The shooter claims he wasnt trying to bait anyone, but he left the garage open despite the prior break in, and had marked items for someone to steal.

He was looking for an excuse to kill someone. This is turning into the same case as the old guy who murdered the teenagers who broke into his house.

Only in this case, this asshole didn't try to move the body or finish'em off, etc.


Why does that matter? Nothing the homeowner did caused the punks to enter the garage. They chose to enter it. Only they are at fault for thier fates.
 
2014-05-07 07:08:18 PM  
Inside the house, motion sensors alerted Markus Kaarma to an intruder's presence. Two recent burglaries had put Mr. Kaarma and his young family on edge, his lawyer said, and he grabbed a shotgun from the dining room and rushed outside. He aimed into the garage and, according to court documents, fired four blasts into the dark. Mr. Dede's body crumpled to the floor.


/Ok, i have no issue with a person defending their home from an intruder. The law gives you the right to lethal force if the suspect is armed, or, is entering your house in a violent and riotous manner. Or, in the castle doctrine its your house, you have the right to defend it. This person was just in the open garage, (and i have a hard time believing the guy left the door open as he had already been burgled twice) and really, shooting blind into a dark garage is a pussy move. it could have been a relative, a police officer looking for someone, or just a dog or other animal that wandered in. Blasting blind like that is retardation. Those rounds could have gone anywhere.
 
2014-05-07 07:08:57 PM  
... was it GOOD beer?
 
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