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(Yahoo)   Poland, who may not remember 1938 all that well, decides to tweak Russia by awarding the Inaugural "Solidarity Prize" for achievements in spreading human rights and democracy to a Crimean Tatar leader who opposed Russian annexation   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 74
    More: Interesting, Crimean Tatars, Crimea, Russians, Poland, Russia, Tatars, Kremlins, human rights  
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1467 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 May 2014 at 3:45 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-07 01:52:28 PM  
Of all of the Eastern European former Soviet bloc states, Poland is in the best position to tweak Russia however they like because they are a NATO member and Russia wouldn't dare to act against them.
 
2014-05-07 02:07:16 PM  
Soviet and Nazi walk into Polish bar The bartender looks up and says, "Is this some kind of joint victory parade?"
 
2014-05-07 02:11:27 PM  

RexTalionis: Of all of the Eastern European former Soviet bloc states, Poland is in the best position to tweak Russia however they like because they are a NATO member and Russia wouldn't dare to act against them.


Yup.  This is their "Come at me, bro" moment.
 
2014-05-07 02:27:58 PM  
photos1.blogger.com
 
2014-05-07 02:32:19 PM  
Dzhemilev, who until last year led the body that represents Crimean Tatars, publicly opposed Russia's annexation of Crimea. He said Crimea's new Moscow-backed authorities last month banned him from entering the peninsula for five years.

So on top of everything else, Russia has a Tatar control problem.
 
2014-05-07 03:02:18 PM  
Great. Now I have a craving for some tatar sauce.

/I really don't
 
2014-05-07 03:48:23 PM  

Walker: Great. Now I have a craving for some tatar sauce.

/I really don't


img.fark.net

Here ya go...
 
2014-05-07 03:48:49 PM  

Diogenes: Dzhemilev, who until last year led the body that represents Crimean Tatars, publicly opposed Russia's annexation of Crimea. He said Crimea's new Moscow-backed authorities last month banned him from entering the peninsula for five years.

So on top of everything else, Russia has a Tatar control problem.


You'd think rinsing with vodka would keep that in check.
 
2014-05-07 03:49:02 PM  
To be fair, in 1938 Poland had little military to speak of and there was no UN or NATO.
 
2014-05-07 03:50:50 PM  
Heh, Poland remembers 1938 just fine...Which is precisely why they did this.
 
2014-05-07 03:51:07 PM  
Poland was the first to react when this shiat went down.  I remember seeing youtube vids from Polish folk taping the columns of tanks and armor moving to their eastern border with Ukraine.

So, it doesn't surprise me that Poland is getting froggy.  NATO member, their military in place and now they're slapping the Russian ego around and daring them to do something about it.

And don't think for a second that this isn't coming from Brussels.  This is a coordinated and choreographed move.
 
2014-05-07 03:51:38 PM  
Subby may not remember 1938 too well either.  Poland was invaded in 1939.  Or is this some labored allusion to Munich?  Russia=Nazis, Poland=Czechoslovakia, Crimea=Sudentenland?  Not working for me.
 
2014-05-07 03:53:47 PM  

azmoviez: RexTalionis: Of all of the Eastern European former Soviet bloc states, Poland is in the best position to tweak Russia however they like because they are a NATO member and Russia wouldn't dare to act against them.

Yup.  This is their "Come at me, bro" moment.


I remember a story that I believe Ian McShane told some years ago on an award special about he and Sean Connery meeting with a Polish guy that I believe was helping finance a movie.

The guy said "They caught us napping in '39." Then showed them a closet in his house with assault weapons, grenades and, apparently a bazooka before saying "They won't catch us napping again."
 
2014-05-07 03:54:18 PM  
pbs.twimg.com
 
2014-05-07 03:58:25 PM  

dj_spanmaster: To be fair, in 1938 Poland had little military to speak of and there was no UN or NATO.


They had a better military than most people give them credit for, as they'd been rapidly expanding under the assumption of an eventual European war, presumed to come from the Soviets. Sure, they collapsed under the pressure of dual German and Soviet invasions, but so did everyone else in Europe. The tales of Polish cavalry charging German tanks are largely urban legends and much of the Polish army was well-equipped and inflicted substantial losses on the Germans.
 
2014-05-07 04:00:22 PM  
Poland getting uppity?  I'm just saying, don't load your whole government onto a flight to Russia anytime soon ...
 
2014-05-07 04:00:23 PM  

Infernalist: Poland was the first to react when this shiat went down.  I remember seeing youtube vids from Polish folk taping the columns of tanks and armor moving to their eastern border with Ukraine.

So, it doesn't surprise me that Poland is getting froggy.  NATO member, their military in place and now they're slapping the Russian ego around and daring them to do something about it.

And don't think for a second that this isn't coming from Brussels.  This is a coordinated and choreographed move.


How big is Polands' army these days? Can't be as pathetic as it was in 1939, them being NATO and all.
 
2014-05-07 04:02:54 PM  
Perhaps, PERHAPS, subby was thinking of the military guarantee that Great Britain granted to Poland to intervene on Poland's behalf should they be invaded by Germany.

When the time came to man up on that guarantee the British... well... they didn't. When they were soon after invaded by the USSR, the British told them no again. It was a pretty dick move by Britain.

Of course that was in 1939, so I'm not to sure.
 
2014-05-07 04:04:19 PM  
amstmonuments.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-05-07 04:13:51 PM  

rockforever: Perhaps, PERHAPS, subby was thinking of the military guarantee that Great Britain granted to Poland to intervene on Poland's behalf should they be invaded by Germany.

When the time came to man up on that guarantee the British... well... they didn't. When they were soon after invaded by the USSR, the British told them no again. It was a pretty dick move by Britain.

Of course that was in 1939, so I'm not to sure.


Umm, actually, when Poland was invaded, the British did something subsequently which is known as "declaring war." Crack open a history book, bubbe.
 
2014-05-07 04:15:01 PM  
Soviet Union invaded Poland in 1939, not 1938.
 
2014-05-07 04:15:03 PM  
encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com

What a Tater leader might look like
 
2014-05-07 04:15:45 PM  

LewDux: Soviet and Nazi walk into Polish bar The bartender looks up and says, "Is this some kind of joint victory parade?"


Brest joke ever.

/get it?
 
2014-05-07 04:17:45 PM  

dukeblue219: dj_spanmaster: To be fair, in 1938 Poland had little military to speak of and there was no UN or NATO.

They had a better military than most people give them credit for, as they'd been rapidly expanding under the assumption of an eventual European war, presumed to come from the Soviets. Sure, they collapsed under the pressure of dual German and Soviet invasions, but so did everyone else in Europe. The tales of Polish cavalry charging German tanks are largely urban legends and much of the Polish army was well-equipped and inflicted substantial losses on the Germans.


Like France, Poland was way behind Germany in terms of command and communication, and air-ground cooperation. Poland did not have nearly as severe a problem with their command staff's bickering and political turmoil (Gamelin's HQ had no radio!). Their aircraft were inferior to the Germans, but on the ground, when the Polish could take the initiative, they gave the German Army a scare: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bzura
 
2014-05-07 04:20:16 PM  

cynicalbastard: rockforever: Perhaps, PERHAPS, subby was thinking of the military guarantee that Great Britain granted to Poland to intervene on Poland's behalf should they be invaded by Germany.

When the time came to man up on that guarantee the British... well... they didn't. When they were soon after invaded by the USSR, the British told them no again. It was a pretty dick move by Britain.

Of course that was in 1939, so I'm not to sure.

Umm, actually, when Poland was invaded, the British did something subsequently which is known as "declaring war." Crack open a history book, bubbe.


And then?
 
2014-05-07 04:21:20 PM  
dj_spanmaster: To be fair, in 1938 Poland had little military to speak of and there was no UN or NATO.

poland was undoubtedly a victim of ww2.  but people also forget that poland was also a military dictatorship then that was oppressing its ukrainian minority, among others.  nowhere nearly on the scale of hitler or stalin, of course, but there were good reasons why the ukrainian national movement was initially an anti-polish one.

but full props now to poland for standing up to neo-fascist putin.  to their immense credit, most of them have gotten over their immense butthurt from the polish-ukrainian conflicts of the 30s and before and are standing steadfast against the true mutual enemy, autocratic russia.
 
rka
2014-05-07 04:21:48 PM  

cynicalbastard: rockforever: Perhaps, PERHAPS, subby was thinking of the military guarantee that Great Britain granted to Poland to intervene on Poland's behalf should they be invaded by Germany.

When the time came to man up on that guarantee the British... well... they didn't. When they were soon after invaded by the USSR, the British told them no again. It was a pretty dick move by Britain.

Of course that was in 1939, so I'm not to sure.

Umm, actually, when Poland was invaded, the British did something subsequently which is known as "declaring war." Crack open a history book, bubbe.


And then they abandoned them to the Soviets after the war for 50 years.

So, declare war to defend Poland. Fight war, almost lose...don't actually defend Poland at all. Empire crumbles because they can't afford it anymore. Is that about right? Yeah. I always wonder why the British look back on WWII as some sort of shining moment.
 
2014-05-07 04:27:46 PM  

Smoking GNU: cynicalbastard: rockforever: Perhaps, PERHAPS, subby was thinking of the military guarantee that Great Britain granted to Poland to intervene on Poland's behalf should they be invaded by Germany.

When the time came to man up on that guarantee the British... well... they didn't. When they were soon after invaded by the USSR, the British told them no again. It was a pretty dick move by Britain.

Of course that was in 1939, so I'm not to sure.

Umm, actually, when Poland was invaded, the British did something subsequently which is known as "declaring war." Crack open a history book, bubbe.

And then?


fecal matter impacted the high velocity twirling blades...
 
2014-05-07 04:27:58 PM  
Showing a bit of spine. Good on Poland. Wish I could say something similar about Obama but hey.
 
2014-05-07 04:28:07 PM  

Smoking GNU: cynicalbastard: rockforever: Perhaps, PERHAPS, subby was thinking of the military guarantee that Great Britain granted to Poland to intervene on Poland's behalf should they be invaded by Germany.

When the time came to man up on that guarantee the British... well... they didn't. When they were soon after invaded by the USSR, the British told them no again. It was a pretty dick move by Britain.

Of course that was in 1939, so I'm not to sure.

Umm, actually, when Poland was invaded, the British did something subsequently which is known as "declaring war." Crack open a history book, bubbe.

And then?


No and then.

/really
//Poland no and then after that
 
2014-05-07 04:30:16 PM  
i.imgur.com

/oblig
 
2014-05-07 04:30:48 PM  
I highly recommend The Second World War by Anthony Beevor for most history professors in this thread.  It's an excellent history of the war, if a little dense.
 
2014-05-07 04:30:49 PM  
Meanwhile Pootie Poot has said giving Finland its independence was a "mistake" and that Russia stands ready to defend ethnic Russians in Finland. I bet the Finns are looking at their "Partnership for Peace" agreement and wishing they'd upgraded. Even with full NATO membership the Baltic States must be feeling VERY nervous
 
2014-05-07 04:31:41 PM  
yup 1939 what most people do not realize is one reason for the long downtime between the conclusion of combat in Poland and major operations in the west is due to the need for the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe to replace equipment lost in the Polish campaign.    The Germans took more of beating there than many realize, by all measures the Polish put up a better fight than the French did in 1940 despite the french having more troops and generally better equipment.

Today's Poland is not about to let its self be conquered ever again.
 
2014-05-07 04:32:34 PM  

Slowdog: [i.imgur.com image 708x1500]

/oblig


This always makes me giggle.
 
2014-05-07 04:35:31 PM  

dukeblue219: dj_spanmaster: To be fair, in 1938 Poland had little military to speak of and there was no UN or NATO.

They had a better military than most people give them credit for, as they'd been rapidly expanding under the assumption of an eventual European war, presumed to come from the Soviets. Sure, they collapsed under the pressure of dual German and Soviet invasions, but so did everyone else in Europe. The tales of Polish cavalry charging German tanks are largely urban legends and much of the Polish army was well-equipped and inflicted substantial losses on the Germans.


They'd also kicked the Russian's asses back in the 20's, iirc.
 
2014-05-07 04:37:21 PM  

CruJones: I highly recommend The Second World War by Anthony Beevor for most history professors in this thread.  It's an excellent history of the war, if a little dense.


Not a bad read at all.  But I thought his more detailed works, Stalingrad, and The Fall of Berlin, were better; world-class, really.  I think he works better with a slightly tighter focus.
 
2014-05-07 04:38:26 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: LewDux: Soviet and Nazi walk into Polish bar The bartender looks up and says, "Is this some kind of joint victory parade?"

Brest joke ever.

/get it?


Of cause I do, I'm Litovsk
 
2014-05-07 04:40:31 PM  

Bomb Head Mohammed: poland was also a military dictatorship


Which country wasn't military dictatorship between WW's?
/Scandinavian ones I guess
 
2014-05-07 04:42:51 PM  

grimlock1972: yup 1939 what most people do not realize is one reason for the long downtime between the conclusion of combat in Poland and major operations in the west is due to the need for the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe to replace equipment lost in the Polish campaign.    The Germans took more of beating there than many realize, by all measures the Polish put up a better fight than the French did in 1940 despite the french having more troops and generally better equipment.

Today's Poland is not about to let its self be conquered ever again.


And non-organized resistance to the Germans continued for a very long time. The USA couldn't maintain control of a desert. Imagine how hard it would be for Russia to maintain control of a giant forest?

The Poles also resisted the USSR's puppet government into the 50s, which I didn't know until just now.
 
2014-05-07 04:44:21 PM  

UNC_Samurai: dukeblue219: dj_spanmaster: To be fair, in 1938 Poland had little military to speak of and there was no UN or NATO.

They had a better military than most people give them credit for, as they'd been rapidly expanding under the assumption of an eventual European war, presumed to come from the Soviets. Sure, they collapsed under the pressure of dual German and Soviet invasions, but so did everyone else in Europe. The tales of Polish cavalry charging German tanks are largely urban legends and much of the Polish army was well-equipped and inflicted substantial losses on the Germans.

Like France, Poland was way behind Germany in terms of command and communication, and air-ground cooperation. Poland did not have nearly as severe a problem with their command staff's bickering and political turmoil (Gamelin's HQ had no radio!). Their aircraft were inferior to the Germans, but on the ground, when the Polish could take the initiative, they gave the German Army a scare: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bzura


To be fair, EVERYBODY was way behind Germany in that area back then.

The U.S. didn't really get fully up to speed until '44 or so.  Once we started sticking air liaison officers literally in the turrets of our tanks in our forward armored columns, we got there.

/We didn't call it blitzkrieg when we rolled into Iraq
//it was blitzkrieg
 
2014-05-07 04:46:29 PM  
Poland not weak!
 
2014-05-07 04:46:35 PM  

Smoking GNU: Infernalist: Poland was the first to react when this shiat went down.  I remember seeing youtube vids from Polish folk taping the columns of tanks and armor moving to their eastern border with Ukraine.

So, it doesn't surprise me that Poland is getting froggy.  NATO member, their military in place and now they're slapping the Russian ego around and daring them to do something about it.

And don't think for a second that this isn't coming from Brussels.  This is a coordinated and choreographed move.

How big is Polands' army these days? Can't be as pathetic as it was in 1939, them being NATO and all.


One of the requirements for being a NATO member nation is to spend at least 4% of GDP on defense. The US and Poland are the only two countries that meet that requirement. The costs for invading them would be extremely high
 
2014-05-07 04:50:18 PM  
Lech Walesa:

Planet Earth's Last Known Labor Hero
 
2014-05-07 04:51:57 PM  

Chach: Showing a bit of spine. Good on Poland. Wish I could say something similar about Obama but hey.


What, specifically, would you like Obama to do?

How, exactly, should he "show spine?"

If your answer involves sending troops...why haven't you gone to the Ukraine to help out?  It's quite possible to travel there; you could get some language CDs, and have rudimentary fluency by the time you got off the plane.  You could always serve in a non-combatant capacity if they wouldn't let you help in the fighting.

Personally, although I'm not particularly religious, I apply the Golden Rule to these situations:  if I'm not willing to get off my ass and go myself, I'm less eager to call for my president or my congress to send other poor slobs to do the job.

The Russians invade a NATO country?  China invades Japan?  Canada crosses the border into Vermont?  Yeah, I'd sign up, if they were taking guys my age.

Russia and Georgia get into a dust-up?  Syrians killing each other?

Have at it.
 
2014-05-07 04:52:46 PM  

anuran: Meanwhile Pootie Poot has said giving Finland its independence was a "mistake" and that Russia stands ready to defend ethnic Russians in Finland. I bet the Finns are looking at their "Partnership for Peace" agreement and wishing they'd upgraded. Even with full NATO membership the Baltic States must be feeling VERY nervous


I don't think Putin has ever actually mentioned Finland, he's said they made some mistakes, but the odds of a Finland invasion are zero.
 
2014-05-07 04:54:36 PM  

PunGent: CruJones: I highly recommend The Second World War by Anthony Beevor for most history professors in this thread.  It's an excellent history of the war, if a little dense.

Not a bad read at all.  But I thought his more detailed works, Stalingrad, and The Fall of Berlin, were better; world-class, really.  I think he works better with a slightly tighter focus.


Agreed, but for a comprehensive history of the entire war it's probably the best, and most accurate, I've found.
 
2014-05-07 04:54:53 PM  

anuran: Meanwhile Pootie Poot has said giving Finland its independence was a "mistake" and that Russia stands ready to defend ethnic Russians in Finland. I bet the Finns are looking at their "Partnership for Peace" agreement and wishing they'd upgraded. Even with full NATO membership the Baltic States must be feeling VERY nervous


Interesting.

Finland contains very few ethnic Russians.

Russia is populated almost exclusively with ethnic Finns.
 
2014-05-07 04:55:12 PM  
grimlock1972:

Today's Poland is not about to let its self be conquered ever again.


You mean they have.............GUNS?!?!?


Well, we just gotta put an end to that.
 
2014-05-07 05:08:15 PM  

dukeblue219: dj_spanmaster: To be fair, in 1938 Poland had little military to speak of and there was no UN or NATO.

They had a better military than most people give them credit for, as they'd been rapidly expanding under the assumption of an eventual European war, presumed to come from the Soviets. Sure, they collapsed under the pressure of dual German and Soviet invasions, but so did everyone else in Europe. The tales of Polish cavalry charging German tanks are largely urban legends and much of the Polish army was well-equipped and inflicted substantial losses on the Germans.


Less urban legend and more Nazi propaganda effort. The Nazis were actually more dependent on Calvary than the Poles were. The Polish Army was actually one of the larger Allied forces involved in WWII, mostly based out of the UK and working pretty closely with the Brits. They chipped in more than their fair share.

And yeah, they don't like the Russians much. They still don't trust the Germans, but they really hate Russia. The wounds from the last few decades are very, very fresh- I visited a few years ago, and there were a lot of new memorials and commemorations, and more going up every day. WWII and the Holocaust did a lot of damage to the national psyche, but any talk about Nazi atrocities was suppressed under Communist rule ( which is part of the reason you don't hear that nearly as many ethnic Poles died in the Holocaust as Jews- the Polish side of the story just wasn't there to make it part of the conversation when we talk about the Holocaust), and there was no time to work through it. Literally, the Nazis moved out one day and the Soviets moved in the next. Oh, and the Nazis burned Warsaw as they were leaving. The Soviets sat across the river and let it burn. Of course, during the Soviet era there were plenty of atrocities that couldn't be discussed, so it all built up, and they've only really been able to come to terms with history from 1938 on in the last decade or so.

So yeah, this is Poland gleefully poking Russia with a stick.
 
2014-05-07 05:21:52 PM  

RexTalionis: Of all of the Eastern European former Soviet bloc states, Poland is in the best position to tweak Russia however they like because they are a NATO member and Russia wouldn't dare to act against them.


Oh, that's a bummer for the large Russian Polish immigrant population.


But no they wouldn't, and why should they. And I mean, we're not talking about your fantasy world here. I mean, why really?
 
2014-05-07 05:26:10 PM  

dukeblue219: dj_spanmaster: To be fair, in 1938 Poland had little military to speak of and there was no UN or NATO.

They had a better military than most people give them credit for, as they'd been rapidly expanding under the assumption of an eventual European war, presumed to come from the Soviets. Sure, they collapsed under the pressure of dual German and Soviet invasions, but so did everyone else in Europe. The tales of Polish cavalry charging German tanks are largely urban legends and much of the Polish army was well-equipped and inflicted substantial losses on the Germans.


Yes, everyone else, except all the countries that weren't involved in the conflict and those that were that didn't.

England got their asses kicked in France, but I am pretty sure they didn't collapse, yes?


Now go show me Ukraine on a map.
 
2014-05-07 05:27:54 PM  

rka: cynicalbastard: rockforever: Perhaps, PERHAPS, subby was thinking of the military guarantee that Great Britain granted to Poland to intervene on Poland's behalf should they be invaded by Germany.

When the time came to man up on that guarantee the British... well... they didn't. When they were soon after invaded by the USSR, the British told them no again. It was a pretty dick move by Britain.

Of course that was in 1939, so I'm not to sure.

Umm, actually, when Poland was invaded, the British did something subsequently which is known as "declaring war." Crack open a history book, bubbe.

And then they abandoned them to the Soviets after the war for 50 years.

So, declare war to defend Poland. Fight war, almost lose...don't actually defend Poland at all. Empire crumbles because they can't afford it anymore. Is that about right? Yeah. I always wonder why the British look back on WWII as some sort of shining moment.


USA abandoned Poland, England wanted to attack USSR on the spot.
 
2014-05-07 05:28:57 PM  

spawn73: RexTalionis: Of all of the Eastern European former Soviet bloc states, Poland is in the best position to tweak Russia however they like because they are a NATO member and Russia wouldn't dare to act against them.

Oh, that's a bummer for the large Russian Polish immigrant population.


But no they wouldn't, and why should they. And I mean, we're not talking about your fantasy world here. I mean, why really?


I'm not entertaining the notions of any fantasy, merely pointing out that Poland has the most protection of any Eastern European former Soviet bloc states which means they can aggravate Russia however they like.

If you want to argue against that, prove me wrong.
 
2014-05-07 05:31:50 PM  

YixilTesiphon: grimlock1972: yup 1939 what most people do not realize is one reason for the long downtime between the conclusion of combat in Poland and major operations in the west is due to the need for the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe to replace equipment lost in the Polish campaign.    The Germans took more of beating there than many realize, by all measures the Polish put up a better fight than the French did in 1940 despite the french having more troops and generally better equipment.

Today's Poland is not about to let its self be conquered ever again.

And non-organized resistance to the Germans continued for a very long time. The USA couldn't maintain control of a desert. Imagine how hard it would be for Russia to maintain control of a giant forest?

The Poles also resisted the USSR's puppet government into the 50s, which I didn't know until just now.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Brothers

Nazi-German allies fought in Lithuenia till 1956. Though, not for Germany at that point obvioisly, just against the Soviet Union.
 
rka
2014-05-07 05:34:09 PM  

spawn73: rka: cynicalbastard: rockforever: Perhaps, PERHAPS, subby was thinking of the military guarantee that Great Britain granted to Poland to intervene on Poland's behalf should they be invaded by Germany.

When the time came to man up on that guarantee the British... well... they didn't. When they were soon after invaded by the USSR, the British told them no again. It was a pretty dick move by Britain.

Of course that was in 1939, so I'm not to sure.

Umm, actually, when Poland was invaded, the British did something subsequently which is known as "declaring war." Crack open a history book, bubbe.

And then they abandoned them to the Soviets after the war for 50 years.

So, declare war to defend Poland. Fight war, almost lose...don't actually defend Poland at all. Empire crumbles because they can't afford it anymore. Is that about right? Yeah. I always wonder why the British look back on WWII as some sort of shining moment.

USA abandoned Poland, England wanted to attack USSR on the spot.


Some US generals did too but the point is that US didn't have a treaty to defend Poland in the first place. The US didn't declare war on Germany due to their invasion of Poland. The UK did. The casus belli for the UK was to defend Poland. Not so with the US.
 
2014-05-07 05:37:03 PM  
spawn73:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Brothers

Nazi-German allies fought in Lithuenia till 1956. Though, not for Germany at that point obvioisly, just against the Soviet Union.



www.wearysloth.com : I hate Lithuenian Nazi allies
 
2014-05-07 05:43:39 PM  

RexTalionis: Of all of the Eastern European former Soviet bloc states, Poland is in the best position to tweak Russia however they like because they are a NATO member and Russia wouldn't dare to act against them.


You forget the Czech Republic, Hungary, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania, Croatia. They used to be members of the Warsaw pact or the USSR (except for the former states of Yugoslavia, which wasn't a member of either) and now they are NATO members. Poland has the biggest active army personnel (120,000) and Romania next (73,350). The other countries don't really contribute much to the military power of the NATO, their membership is more of a political importance.


Elroydb: One of the requirements for being a NATO member nation is to spend at least 4% of GDP on defense. The US and Poland are the only two countries that meet that requirement. The costs for invading them would be extremely high


According to this wiki article, military expenditures in % of GDP for the US was 4.8%, for Poland 1.7% in 2012. There's no 4% rule, only that "Members' defense spending is supposed to amount to 2% of GDP."
 
2014-05-07 05:48:07 PM  

RexTalionis: spawn73: RexTalionis: Of all of the Eastern European former Soviet bloc states, Poland is in the best position to tweak Russia however they like because they are a NATO member and Russia wouldn't dare to act against them.

Oh, that's a bummer for the large Russian Polish immigrant population.


But no they wouldn't, and why should they. And I mean, we're not talking about your fantasy world here. I mean, why really?

I'm not entertaining the notions of any fantasy, merely pointing out that Poland has the most protection of any Eastern European former Soviet bloc states which means they can aggravate Russia however they like.

If you want to argue against that, prove me wrong.


Eh, what? How about I just address your argument instead?

Poland, could, invade Russia. But that would be stupid.

Russia could invade Poland, that would be equally stupid.

Is either scenario likely outside your fantasy world? No.
 
2014-05-07 05:50:44 PM  

rka: spawn73: rka: cynicalbastard: rockforever: Perhaps, PERHAPS, subby was thinking of the military guarantee that Great Britain granted to Poland to intervene on Poland's behalf should they be invaded by Germany.

When the time came to man up on that guarantee the British... well... they didn't. When they were soon after invaded by the USSR, the British told them no again. It was a pretty dick move by Britain.

Of course that was in 1939, so I'm not to sure.

Umm, actually, when Poland was invaded, the British did something subsequently which is known as "declaring war." Crack open a history book, bubbe.

And then they abandoned them to the Soviets after the war for 50 years.

So, declare war to defend Poland. Fight war, almost lose...don't actually defend Poland at all. Empire crumbles because they can't afford it anymore. Is that about right? Yeah. I always wonder why the British look back on WWII as some sort of shining moment.

USA abandoned Poland, England wanted to attack USSR on the spot.

Some US generals did too but the point is that US didn't have a treaty to defend Poland in the first place. The US didn't declare war on Germany due to their invasion of Poland. The UK did. The casus belli for the UK was to defend Poland. Not so with the US.


I'm talking 1945. UK obviosly did what it could in 1939.
 
2014-05-07 06:03:56 PM  

CruJones: anuran: Meanwhile Pootie Poot has said giving Finland its independence was a "mistake" and that Russia stands ready to defend ethnic Russians in Finland. I bet the Finns are looking at their "Partnership for Peace" agreement and wishing they'd upgraded. Even with full NATO membership the Baltic States must be feeling VERY nervous

I don't think Putin has ever actually mentioned Finland, he's said they made some mistakes, but the odds of a Finland invasion are zero.


I caught the quote. It turns out it was aides of his who said he wanted to "regain Finland" and that Russia never should have let it go. How accurately they're quoting the Czar is another question.
 
2014-05-07 06:10:57 PM  
And keep in mind, Germany declared war on the US. Against the advice of almost his entire staff, diplomatic corps, and military commanders, Hitler insisted on holding up Germany's end of the Tripartite Pact. The American war aims never included exactly what would happen to Eastern Europe; the goal was always to eliminate the Nazi regime.
 
2014-05-07 06:21:50 PM  

cynicalbastard: rockforever: Perhaps, PERHAPS, subby was thinking of the military guarantee that Great Britain granted to Poland to intervene on Poland's behalf should they be invaded by Germany.

When the time came to man up on that guarantee the British... well... they didn't. When they were soon after invaded by the USSR, the British told them no again. It was a pretty dick move by Britain.

Of course that was in 1939, so I'm not to sure.

Umm, actually, when Poland was invaded, the British did something subsequently which is known as "declaring war." Crack open a history book, bubbe.


Yeah they got right on it! HA! Good one though.

Someone else said it, the UK did what it could, which was nothing. If they couldn't do anything, why did they issue the guarantee? Cus their arseholes.
 
2014-05-07 07:00:35 PM  

UNC_Samurai: And keep in mind, Germany declared war on the US. Against the advice of almost his entire staff, diplomatic corps, and military commanders, Hitler insisted on holding up Germany's end of the Tripartite Pact. The American war aims never included exactly what would happen to Eastern Europe; the goal was always to eliminate the Nazi regime.


Germany was not required by the Tripartite act to declare war on the US , nor was Italy but they both did.  one of the biggest errors in the war by the Germans.
 
2014-05-07 07:10:10 PM  
Oh, I'm pretty sure Poland remembers 1938.  And 1832.  And 1815.  And 1795.  And 1793.  And 1772.
 
2014-05-07 07:16:43 PM  

dukeblue219: The tales of Polish cavalry charging German tanks are largely urban legends


not so much urban legends as NAZI propaganda to cover for the fact that the Poles were mauling the Germans pretty badly.
 
2014-05-07 07:23:35 PM  

anuran: Meanwhile Pootie Poot has said giving Finland its independence was a "mistake" and that Russia stands ready to defend ethnic Russians in Finland. I bet the Finns are looking at their "Partnership for Peace" agreement and wishing they'd upgraded. Even with full NATO membership the Baltic States must be feeling VERY nervous



Simo Hayha tells Putin "come at me bro".

And I used to sail with some Litvaks in Chicago, Russia would NOT enjoy trying to take the Baltic's back?   You think the IRA held a grudge?   Every expat Baltic in the world would send cash and guns to defend their version of the auld sod
 
2014-05-07 07:51:48 PM  

rockforever: cynicalbastard: rockforever: Perhaps, PERHAPS, subby was thinking of the military guarantee that Great Britain granted to Poland to intervene on Poland's behalf should they be invaded by Germany.

When the time came to man up on that guarantee the British... well... they didn't. When they were soon after invaded by the USSR, the British told them no again. It was a pretty dick move by Britain.

Of course that was in 1939, so I'm not to sure.

Umm, actually, when Poland was invaded, the British did something subsequently which is known as "declaring war." Crack open a history book, bubbe.

Yeah they got right on it! HA! Good one though.

Someone else said it, the UK did what it could, which was nothing. If they couldn't do anything, why did they issue the guarantee? Cus their arseholes.


That's one of the central points of AJP Taylor's book - the British painted themselves into a corner, and were more enthusiastic about guaranteeing the defense of a country, in Poland, that they had less capability of supporting on the battlefield than Czechoslovakia, which they hesitated to go to war for on the grounds that it was infeasible to support them militarily. In both cases, military support meant engaging the Germans in the same general areas they had fought over in 1914-18.
 
2014-05-07 08:16:55 PM  
1938? 1939?

Meh... who cares: the Soviets had to team up with the Nazis to take out Poland.

How about looking at the Polish-Soviet war of 1919-1921 where the Poles kicked Russian ass over the Ukraine.
 
2014-05-08 12:03:10 AM  
In addition to much of what's been said above, Polish dog fighters were some of the fiercest protecting Britain against the Luftwaffe.
 
2014-05-08 05:15:23 AM  

Slowdog: [i.imgur.com image 708x1500]

/oblig


I wonder if the comic's creator knows that the "RRRRRRRR" and the ball guy thing is colored as the flag of Monaco or Indonesia, and not Poland.
The flag of Poland is red on the bottom.

/I live in Poland.
 
2014-05-08 05:38:27 AM  

RexTalionis: Of all of the Eastern European former Soviet bloc states, Poland is in the best position to tweak Russia however they like because they are a NATO member and Russia wouldn't dare to act against them.


Well apart from the very suspicious air crash that wiped out their government a few years back.
 
2014-05-08 07:13:37 AM  
Only two Euro countries you can count on if Russia goes west;  Germany and Poland.
 
kgf
2014-05-08 01:13:09 PM  
Germany's initial success in WWII was a result of their embracing mobility.  WWI was fought with 20th century weapons and 19th century tactics.  Germany learned from that and used mobility to gain an advantage while France was preparing to fight WWI all over again with the Maginot Line.

Many people today wrongly think "blitzkrieg" simply means attacking the enemy fast and hard.  I remember reading a book (can't remember its name) that  asserted that teh German "blitzkrieg" is a myth.  Blitzkrieg is the concept of penetrating the enemy's lines on small fronts and then using the mobility of the penetrating troops to wreak havoc deep in the enemy's rear areas, disrupting communications and supplies.  For the most part, the Germans in WWII relied on the tried and true strategy of "Kesselschlacht", which is to envelop the enemy and then destroy him in the resulting cauldron (kessel), not blitzkrieg.    That is, blitzkrieg was used on a very small scale to gain local advantage to enable the kessel, but it was not a large scale strategy.
 
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