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(The Daily Beast)   What to do when Russian troops invade your town. Curiously, at no point does the article recommend taking to the forests with your plucky but outgunned group of Wolverines. Author must not have seen that documentary   (thedailybeast.com ) divider line
    More: Followup, Russians, Russia, South Ossetia, Russian intelligence, operations officer, The Daily Beast  
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4521 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 May 2014 at 8:24 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-07 08:07:31 AM  
1. Be Afghani
2. Don't be not Afghani
 
2014-05-07 08:08:41 AM  
Being a guerrilla fighter is the last step on the road to defeat. Some people can make it work in the right circumstances and political situations. Like Francis Marion, you have to have the tenacity, the cleverness, and most of all someone to bail your ass out. But not even Rambo can actually win a guerrilla campaign.
 
2014-05-07 08:15:55 AM  
You mean the documentary where the Wolverines suffer 78% casualties within just a month or two of the Russians getting serious about going after them?

September - Soviets invade, nascent Wolverines go into hiding.
October - Wolverines still hiding.
November - Wolverines start going against 2nd rate Cuban occupation troops, have some success
December - Wolverines build upon their successes.
January - Russians bring in Spetznaz troops.
February - After initial setback, Spetznaz decimates the Wolverines.
March - Only 2 of the 9 Wolverines are left, and they survive by running away.
 
2014-05-07 08:16:51 AM  

doglover: Being a guerrilla fighter is the last step on the road to defeat. Some people can make it work in the right circumstances and political situations. Like Francis Marion, you have to have the tenacity, the cleverness, and most of all someone to bail your ass out. But not even Rambo can actually win a guerrilla campaign.


You don't have to be able to win.  With an outside invader, you just have to make it too expensive for them to remain.
 
2014-05-07 08:19:53 AM  

Mr. Coffee Nerves: 1. Be Afghani
2. Don't be not Afghani


1.  Be Vietnamese.
2. Don't be not Vietnamese.
 
2014-05-07 08:25:48 AM  

dittybopper: Mr. Coffee Nerves: 1. Be Afghani
2. Don't be not Afghani

1.  Be Vietnamese.
2. Don't be not Vietnamese.


better

Cuban might work there too
 
2014-05-07 08:27:17 AM  

doglover: Being a guerrilla fighter is the last step on the road to defeat


Who pulled out of 'Nam?
 
2014-05-07 08:28:00 AM  

dittybopper: November - Wolverines start going against 2nd rate Cuban occupation troops, have some success


Let me just expand a bit upon this one:  Milius is much, much smarter than people give him credit for.  In one of the first scenes where the Wolverines attack a large-ish group of occupation troops, it's Cubans that appear to be cutting telephone lines.  They are armed not with the expected AK-47's, but with FN-FALs, precisely what reserve Cuba Army troops would have been armed with in the early 1980s - Leftover rifles from the Batista regime.

The fact that they are armed like that is a signal to those who were aware of it that these weren't front line combat troops, but rear echelon occupation troops.  In sports terms, they are third or fourth string.

The easy thing would have been to simply give every single "bad guy" an AK.  But Milius is signalling to us that these troops aren't actual combat troops.  Sure, they're in the military, and have some training, but they aren't infantry.  They're at best engineer or communications troops.
 
2014-05-07 08:30:06 AM  

vudukungfu: doglover: Being a guerrilla fighter is the last step on the road to defeat

Who pulled out of 'Nam?


My father-in-law?

/Technically, her name is Nom, short for Tanom.
//And they have two kids, so he didn't pull out at least twice.
 
2014-05-07 08:30:48 AM  
i.telegraph.co.uk

/oblig
 
2014-05-07 08:32:00 AM  
List fails without "ask what to do on yahoo answers"

i.telegraph.co.uk
 
2014-05-07 08:33:31 AM  

dittybopper: dittybopper: November - Wolverines start going against 2nd rate Cuban occupation troops, have some success

Let me just expand a bit upon this one:  Milius is much, much smarter than people give him credit for.  In one of the first scenes where the Wolverines attack a large-ish group of occupation troops, it's Cubans that appear to be cutting telephone lines.  They are armed not with the expected AK-47's, but with FN-FALs, precisely what reserve Cuba Army troops would have been armed with in the early 1980s - Leftover rifles from the Batista regime.

The fact that they are armed like that is a signal to those who were aware of it that these weren't front line combat troops, but rear echelon occupation troops.  In sports terms, they are third or fourth string.

The easy thing would have been to simply give every single "bad guy" an AK.  But Milius is signalling to us that these troops aren't actual combat troops.  Sure, they're in the military, and have some training, but they aren't infantry.  They're at best engineer or communications troops.


I'm not sure how smart proper costuming is and regardless that's the costume directors job.  A quick imdb tells us that May Azzow is really smart.

Red Dawn isn't smart.  It's really, really silly.  Give Milius credit for Apocalypse Now and not "The Outsiders vs. The Russians".
 
2014-05-07 08:33:50 AM  

IamKaiserSoze!!!: dittybopper: Mr. Coffee Nerves: 1. Be Afghani
2. Don't be not Afghani

1.  Be Vietnamese.
2. Don't be not Vietnamese.

better

Cuban might work there too


Maybe.  That one is more of a stretch, though.
 
2014-05-07 08:34:21 AM  
Maybe the former eastern bloc nations should form their own alliance group like NATO? East European Trade and Military Entity perhaps?
 
2014-05-07 08:35:20 AM  
Simple. You just throw this guy at them, they'll break out the vodka and re-allow us to have hot mail order brides with hot accents:

www.tourcart.net

1. Be Yakov
2. Don't be Yakov (not advisable)
 
2014-05-07 08:38:21 AM  

mutterfark: Maybe the former eastern bloc nations should form their own alliance group like NATO? East European Trade and Military Entity perhaps?


EET-ME?

I'm not so keen on the name.
 
2014-05-07 08:39:48 AM  
Might I suggest giving the troops the most disease ridden whore, in order to reduce their efficiency because they'll be switching from itching to burning every thirty seconds. Your mother should do well.
 
2014-05-07 08:40:18 AM  
But did Georgia not start the war?
 
2014-05-07 08:40:49 AM  
1. Vote for Ackerman
2. Don't not vote for Ackerman
.
 
2014-05-07 08:41:45 AM  

vudukungfu: doglover: Being a guerrilla fighter is the last step on the road to defeat

Who pulled out of 'Nam?


We all pull out of Nam at the end, she insists... but last time, I stayed in just long enough before that.   www.sherv.net
She didn't need to know.
 
2014-05-07 08:44:49 AM  

Rapmaster2000: Red Dawn isn't smart. It's really, really silly. Give Milius credit for Apocalypse Now and not "The Outsiders vs. The Russians".

Well it's not the sort of insightful, thought-provoking film that can give someone an epiphany; I'll give you that.  That said, it's underrated.  Red Dawn is one of those stealth satires that is too clever by half.  Jingoistic idiots think it's a patriotic film because it shows plucky Americans winning a series of battles against Russkies Cubans.  Anyone who pays closer attention can see the Americans get their asses whupped; the lesson being that no, there is no winning a war with a few resistance fighters.  Basically, it's a movie both the idiots and the learned can enjoy for entirely different reasons, with both sides walking away from it with high opinions of themselves.
 
2014-05-07 08:45:14 AM  

wildcardjack: Might I suggest giving the troops the most disease ridden whore, in order to reduce their efficiency because they'll be switching from itching to burning every thirty seconds. Your mother should do well.


It's a two for.
We can send our exes.
 
2014-05-07 08:45:55 AM  
Alaska is next. At least they got Putin Palin out.
 
2014-05-07 08:46:16 AM  

Fano: 1. Vote for Ackerman
2. Don't not vote for Ackerman
.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irRCNUc81j8  Same voice actor.
 
2014-05-07 08:46:57 AM  
Truck maintenance:
1.  Pee into empty radiator.
2.  See number 1.
 
2014-05-07 08:48:05 AM  
Fight or die.
i2.cdn.turner.com
 
2014-05-07 08:49:42 AM  

dittybopper: doglover: Being a guerrilla fighter is the last step on the road to defeat. Some people can make it work in the right circumstances and political situations. Like Francis Marion, you have to have the tenacity, the cleverness, and most of all someone to bail your ass out. But not even Rambo can actually win a guerrilla campaign.

You don't have to be able to win.  With an outside invader, you just have to make it too expensive for them to remain.


With an outside invader, you have to have an outside ally supplying you with guns, food and ammo, and preferably an outside refuge to train, rearm and recuperate in between all the battles you lose. Most insurgencies are proxy wars between the invader and their outside adversary (in Afghanistan, that's currently Pakistan, who are more anti-Afghan than anti-U.S., but it works out the same).

Vietnam was not a fight between the plucky Vietnamese and the western colonialists. It was a fight between the Vietnamese communists and non-communists, with the Soviets and Chinese backing one side and the U.S. the other. Without Soviet assistance, the Viet Minh would have lost to the French in '52.
 
2014-05-07 08:51:08 AM  

Mr. Coffee Nerves: 1. Be Afghani
2. Don't be not Afghani


upload.wikimedia.org

/wants a quiet word
 
2014-05-07 08:51:18 AM  

dragonchild: Rapmaster2000: Red Dawn isn't smart. It's really, really silly. Give Milius credit for Apocalypse Now and not "The Outsiders vs. The Russians".
Well it's not the sort of insightful, thought-provoking film that can give someone an epiphany; I'll give you that.  That said, it's underrated.  Red Dawn is one of those stealth satires that is too clever by half.  Jingoistic idiots think it's a patriotic film because it shows plucky Americans winning a series of battles against Russkies Cubans.  Anyone who pays closer attention can see the Americans get their asses whupped; the lesson being that no, there is no winning a war with a few resistance fighters.  Basically, it's a movie both the idiots and the learned can enjoy for entirely different reasons, with both sides walking away from it with high opinions of themselves.


That and Colonel Bella is Superfly.
 
2014-05-07 08:56:52 AM  

dragonchild: Rapmaster2000: Red Dawn isn't smart. It's really, really silly. Give Milius credit for Apocalypse Now and not "The Outsiders vs. The Russians".
Well it's not the sort of insightful, thought-provoking film that can give someone an epiphany; I'll give you that.  That said, it's underrated.  Red Dawn is one of those stealth satires that is too clever by half.  Jingoistic idiots think it's a patriotic film because it shows plucky Americans winning a series of battles against Russkies Cubans.  Anyone who pays closer attention can see the Americans get their asses whupped; the lesson being that no, there is no winning a war with a few resistance fighters.  Basically, it's a movie both the idiots and the learned can enjoy for entirely different reasons, with both sides walking away from it with high opinions of themselves.


It's just stupid, from the opening credits on. The premise is farking retarded. If you wanted to make that film, you should have done it in science fiction, because once you start with "Cubans and Nicaraguans invade the Southern U.S. all the way to Colorado after infiltrating through Mexico, and the Russians come over the ice to meet them," you have cut yourself loose from reality like a spacewalking astronaut with a broken tether.

Here's how that actually works out. Texas mobilizes the Texas National Guard, and the Cubans are wiped out on the Rio Grande. Russia notices that it lacks the amphibious lift capacity to give the Alaska National Guard more than a morning's workout. End of movie.

My favorite bit is late in the film when the commies are running out of RPGs, to which I shout at the screen, "Well, if you hadn't wasted them in the beginning by shooting at SCHOOL BUSES, you'd have plenty now!"

God, that piece of shiat movie pisses me off.
 
2014-05-07 08:58:05 AM  

DammitIForgotMyLogin: Mr. Coffee Nerves: 1. Be Afghani
2. Don't be not Afghani

[upload.wikimedia.org image 500x719]

/wants a quiet word


Like most irregular troops, those guys lost. Badly.
 
2014-05-07 08:59:59 AM  
newslang89.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-05-07 09:00:18 AM  
1) Invite the Russians to dinner.
2) Put icepicks into their ears at the dinner table.

Lather, rinse, repeat.
Kill them with kindness, no heavy weapons requires.
Get inside their OODA Loops.
 
2014-05-07 09:00:40 AM  

DammitIForgotMyLogin: Mr. Coffee Nerves: 1. Be Afghani
2. Don't be not Afghani

[upload.wikimedia.org image 500x719]

/wants a quiet word


Came for this. Leaving satisfied.
 
2014-05-07 09:01:33 AM  

Mr. Coffee Nerves: 1. Be Afghani
2. Don't be not Afghani


Afghani is a language. The people of Afghanistan are called Afghans.
 
2014-05-07 09:03:15 AM  

spiritplumber: Fano: 1. Vote for Ackerman
2. Don't not vote for Ackerman
.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irRCNUc81j8  Same voice actor.


spiritplumber: Fano: 1. Vote for Ackerman
2. Don't not vote for Ackerman
.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irRCNUc81j8  Same voice actor.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMzH6Ya2WeY I never get enough of it, but I'm too lame to carry a meme.
 
2014-05-07 09:04:19 AM  

LazyMedia: dragonchild: Rapmaster2000: Red Dawn isn't smart. It's really, really silly. Give Milius credit for Apocalypse Now and not "The Outsiders vs. The Russians".
Well it's not the sort of insightful, thought-provoking film that can give someone an epiphany; I'll give you that.  That said, it's underrated.  Red Dawn is one of those stealth satires that is too clever by half.  Jingoistic idiots think it's a patriotic film because it shows plucky Americans winning a series of battles against Russkies Cubans.  Anyone who pays closer attention can see the Americans get their asses whupped; the lesson being that no, there is no winning a war with a few resistance fighters.  Basically, it's a movie both the idiots and the learned can enjoy for entirely different reasons, with both sides walking away from it with high opinions of themselves.

It's just stupid, from the opening credits on. The premise is farking retarded. If you wanted to make that film, you should have done it in science fiction, because once you start with "Cubans and Nicaraguans invade the Southern U.S. all the way to Colorado after infiltrating through Mexico, and the Russians come over the ice to meet them," you have cut yourself loose from reality like a spacewalking astronaut with a broken tether.

Here's how that actually works out. Texas mobilizes the Texas National Guard, and the Cubans are wiped out on the Rio Grande. Russia notices that it lacks the amphibious lift capacity to give the Alaska National Guard more than a morning's workout. End of movie.

My favorite bit is late in the film when the commies are running out of RPGs, to which I shout at the screen, "Well, if you hadn't wasted them in the beginning by shooting at SCHOOL BUSES, you'd have plenty now!"

God, that piece of shiat movie pisses me off.


www.thestrong.org
I bet you really hated this game, Francis.
 
2014-05-07 09:10:41 AM  

Mr. Coffee Nerves: 1. Be Afghani
2. Don't be not Afghani


You skipped a step:

1.5 Get lots of aid from the Reagan administration
 
2014-05-07 09:11:15 AM  

Rapmaster2000: Red Dawn isn't smart.  It's really, really silly.


This is the chronology of Red Dawn that I posted earlier:

September - Soviets invade, nascent Wolverines go into hiding.
October - Wolverines still hiding.
November - Wolverines start going against 2nd rate Cuban occupation troops, have some success
December - Wolverines build upon their successes.
January - Russians bring in Spetznaz troops.
February - After initial setback, Spetznaz decimates the Wolverines.
March - Only 2 of the 9 Wolverines are left, and they survive by running away.


It seems to me that the Wolverines suffering 78% casualties in the span of 6 months is pretty realistic.  Especially when you consider that it's actually only 4 months that

Oh, and the Wolverines accomplished literally *NOTHING*, other than to tie down a Spetznaz unit for a couple of months that could have been used elsewhere.  The trains are still rolling through Calumet, which is why the Soviets/Cubans were there:  A pass in the Rockies

The original Red Dawn isn't the movie you think it is.  Go watch it again, *CAREFULLY*.  Note the following:

1. How the occupiers are portrayed, specifically Colonel Bella, "Yuri" the naive sightseer, the young Russian trying to get a date with Toni right before she bombs the "Friendship Center", and Colonel Strelnikov.  All are portrayed sympathetically.

2. Note how Robert turns into a psychopath willing to kill his own friend without any feeling.  And he's a "good guy".  Also, note that Jed is a bit of a bully, and the stereotypical "dumb jock".

3. Note also that until the arrival of the Spetznaz, all of the measures taken by the occupation troops are defensive in nature, or at most reprisals against the civilian population.  They don't go actively hunting the Wolverines.  They beef up their convoys and 'keep the troops in secured areas'.  During that entire time, which is only about 2 months, the Wolverines keep the initiative, choosing when and where to strike.

4.  Once Colonel Strelnikov and his special forces troops arrive in January, they quickly put the Wolverines on the defensive, and when they do that, the Wolverines start to lose.  The cohesion of the Wolverines are shattered, they begin to doubt themselves, and they end up falling for and *OBVIOUS* trap out of hunger.

And in the end, none of their efforts mattered to the larger war, that we can tell.  We know from the end credits that there is an American flag waving over Partisan Rock, but we don't know how much longer the war lasted, and it's implied by the inscription on the plaque that the war lasted a long time ("In the early days of World War 3, guerrillas - mostly children - placed the names of their lost upon this rock.", emphasis mine).

The film, if you watch the *WHOLE* thing, and don't just shut your brain off because "Hey, rah, rah, Amurica! Assplosions galore!", you'll see that it's much more subtle and even-handed than people give it credit for.

And if there is one critique I have, it's that you don't get the impression of the insurgency growing, which is something that historically happens when you have a vast area to pacify, limited troops to pacify it with, and you use heavy-handed methods like executing civilians in reprisals against attacks.

In that sense, perhaps Milius fooled us all and wrote an *ANTI*-insurgency film.  "Don't bother to fight back, because you'll lose.  Quickly.  And no one will help you".
 
2014-05-07 09:13:09 AM  

dittybopper: It seems to me that the Wolverines suffering 78% casualties in the span of 6 months is pretty realistic.  Especially when you consider that it's actually only 4 months that


Crap, didn't finish my thought.

Especially when you consider that it's actually only 4 months that they are actually fighting against the occupation troops, and only a month or at most two against actual *COMBAT* troops.
 
2014-05-07 09:13:23 AM  
Love that movie - fark the remake.
m8.i.pbase.com
 
2014-05-07 09:13:33 AM  
blog.timesunion.com
 
2014-05-07 09:18:07 AM  
LazyMedia:

My favorite bit is late in the film when the commies are running out of RPGs, to which I shout at the screen, "Well, if you hadn't wasted them in the beginning by shooting at SCHOOL BUSES, you'd have plenty now!"

Shooting at school buses is to let you know how evil they are.  Similarly from that same year, Invasion USA saw a cabal of Soviets, Nicaraguans, Cubans, bikers, black street gangs, drug dealers, and liberal college professors blowing up suburban homes on Christmas because they're totally evil and whatnot.

There doesn't seem to be much value in shooting RPGs at suburban homes, but that's not really the point.  There wasn't much tactical value in the Iraqis throwing Kuwaiti babies out of incubators, but that yarn served its purpose.
 
2014-05-07 09:21:59 AM  

LazyMedia: Mr. Coffee Nerves: 1. Be Afghani
2. Don't be not Afghani

Afghani is a language. The people of Afghanistan are called Afghans.


Don't pull the rug out from under him.
You hound.
 
2014-05-07 09:22:57 AM  

doglover: Being a guerrilla fighter is the last step on the road to defeat. Some people can make it work in the right circumstances and political situations. Like Francis Marion, you have to have the tenacity, the cleverness, and most of all someone to bail your ass out. But not even Rambo can actually win a guerrilla campaign.


Going that route is kinda also recognising that you've lost control of your country.

Ukraine still has a government, army and police force. They still control most of their country. And so far there's no regular opposing army, just civilians, who may or not be acting with the guidance of Moscow.

---

I'm kinda courious as to what Kiev-Ukraine has done with regards to social services in Crimea. Are they still paying out pensions etc.

I bet they aren't. And that's a really good point Georgia has. If pensioners, doctors, teachers etc. are being ignored by Ukraine, whilst paid by Russia. Well, which country do people think they're a part of?

If I were a schoolteacher, and my monthly paycheck came from Russia, whilst Ukraine had stopped paying me. Well...
 
2014-05-07 09:23:25 AM  

dittybopper: Mr. Coffee Nerves: 1. Be Afghani
2. Don't be not Afghani

1.  Be Vietnamese.
2. Don't be not Vietnamese.


1.  Be Angloan
2.  Be Jonas Savimbi
3.  Don't be not Angolan
 
2014-05-07 09:24:24 AM  
1. Go in to hiding
2. Contact enemy's enemy for resources like shoulder fired missiles. Give missiles to people who will fight and die. Don't fight or die (IMPORTANT)
3. Any money donated? Skim off 10% for 'administrative' reasons
4. When enemy leaves, declare religious war on former partner/supplier.
2-1. Ask for extra batteries for shoulder fired missiles

The Bin Laden Plan (not sure about the skimming)
 
2014-05-07 09:24:47 AM  

flondrix: Mr. Coffee Nerves: 1. Be Afghani
2. Don't be not Afghani

You skipped a step:

1.5 Get lots of aid from the Reagan administration


The Soviets weren't winning in Afghanistan prior to getting significant aid from the US.  The US supplying them with Stinger missiles is often credited with defeating the Soviets, but really all that did was hasten the inevitable.  Soviet military doctrine wasn't oriented towards fighting the kind of loose, ad hoc campaign the Mujahideen ran.  They hadn't trained for that sort of war, despite the example of the US in Vietnam just a few years prior, and they were politically unable to admit to themselves that they were facing a popular uprising.

As an example, they considered that if they caused 25% casualties against a Mujahideen unit and dispersed them, that they had a successful mission.  But the dispersed Muj would later re-form with reinforcements and attack againt in a few weeks or at most months time.  They didn't understand that from a military standpoint they had to kill or capture nearly every single person in a Mujahideen unit in order to prevent it from re-forming.

It doesn't matter how much aid they receive, there is zero way, outside of either killing them all or co-opting them politically, that you can win against an insurgency like that.
 
2014-05-07 09:27:48 AM  

spawn73: doglover: Being a guerrilla fighter is the last step on the road to defeat. Some people can make it work in the right circumstances and political situations. Like Francis Marion, you have to have the tenacity, the cleverness, and most of all someone to bail your ass out. But not even Rambo can actually win a guerrilla campaign.

Going that route is kinda also recognising that you've lost control of your country.

Ukraine still has a government, army and police force. They still control most of their country. And so far there's no regular opposing army, just civilians, who may or not be acting with the guidance of Moscow.

---

I'm kinda courious as to what Kiev-Ukraine has done with regards to social services in Crimea. Are they still paying out pensions etc.

I bet they aren't. And that's a really good point Georgia has. If pensioners, doctors, teachers etc. are being ignored by Ukraine, whilst paid by Russia. Well, which country do people think they're a part of?

If I were a schoolteacher, and my monthly paycheck came from Russia, whilst Ukraine had stopped paying me. Well...


My understanding was that Russia made a lot of promises to the breakaway part of Georgia, then stiffed them. Crimea is about to learn what Putin's promises are worth. I seriously think the guy has fetal alcohol syndrome; his one motivator is to be as much like Stalin as he can get away with, without thinking about the financial implications of returning unproductive territory to Russia. Crimea and South Ossetia are both money pits.
 
2014-05-07 09:27:57 AM  

LazyMedia: Afghani is a language. The people of Afghanistan are called Afghans.


No, those are the blankets.
 
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