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(Chicago Trib)   New bill would require high schools to teach students how to perform CPR and use defibrillators. Naturally, some people have a problem with this   (chicagotribune.com) divider line 33
    More: Interesting, CPR, high schools, Illinois, George Laman, Illinois House, Elmhurst, St. Charles, American Heart Association  
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4049 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 May 2014 at 2:35 AM (43 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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2014-05-07 01:46:10 AM  
6 votes:
I keep getting my CPR training updated. It's important in the hospitality trade. Only had to use it once, and only had to use the Heimlich once--my daughter got very excited about having a hot dog, and popped the sucker up with one push, and told her to slow down, and she was young enough that if I didn't freak out, she didn't freak out--but the one time I had to CPR I was damn lucky it was with someone else to trade on compressions, because the ambulance took forever. And this was before the defibrillator kits were common. We felt the ribs, and we still weren't getting anything, so we kept going. The EMTs got there and took over, and we were glad to let them.

As for not paying for the skill set: maybe folks should think a bit on where those priorities are. Saving lives, or saving a football team's uniform laundry service?
2014-05-07 03:21:26 AM  
4 votes:
A very good friend of mine, a top notch science teacher and a wonderful person, was walking down Telegraph Avenue one lovely afternoon when, next thing she knew, she woke up in an intensive care unit at a local hospital. She had a few broken ribs and no idea how she'd got there or what had happened.
She had gone into anaphylactic shock due to being stung by a bee and her heart had stopped. Someone had performed CPR on her until the EMTs arrived, saving her life. She never found out who the person was who had saved her.
It's mighty dusty every time I think of that person saving my friend's life. There are, literally, hundreds of students whose lives she has changed (for the better) and who are thankful that she was saved. She is one of those teachers that people name when asked "Did you ever have a favorite teacher? Someone who inspired you?"
Find the money. Save a life.
2014-05-07 03:02:49 AM  
4 votes:
AFAIK cpr only has a 13% success rate, andbrings the risk if breakung some ribs. Personally, i'd prefer a 13% chance to live and a few broken ribs over being a cooling corpse waiting for an ambulance to arrive.

/please correct me if i have some of the facts wrong
2014-05-07 01:52:25 AM  
3 votes:

hubiestubert: I keep getting my CPR training updated. It's important in the hospitality trade. Only had to use it once, and only had to use the Heimlich once--my daughter got very excited about having a hot dog, and popped the sucker up with one push, and told her to slow down, and she was young enough that if I didn't freak out, she didn't freak out--but the one time I had to CPR I was damn lucky it was with someone else to trade on compressions, because the ambulance took forever. And this was before the defibrillator kits were common. We felt the ribs, and we still weren't getting anything, so we kept going. The EMTs got there and took over, and we were glad to let them.

As for not paying for the skill set: maybe folks should think a bit on where those priorities are. Saving lives, or saving a football team's uniform laundry service?


I admire you as being a rational, intelligent, and erudite (if somewhat wordy at times) Farker

/but damn, dude... you know the answer to that question in a substantial part of the country
2014-05-07 01:30:58 AM  
3 votes:

fusillade762: Ambivalence: I learned CPR in 6th grade.  learning basic first aid was mandatory. I learned how to do CPR, splint a broken limb, make a sling, all kinds of cool shiat.  Most of what I learned is way out of date now (I want to say it was 30 years ago?) but I knew it and there wasn't anything at all controversial about learning it.

The controversy doesn't appear to be about the learning. It's about paying for the learning.


I guess I don't understand why it's so hard to pay for something that should have already been an mandatory part of the curiculum.  First aid/CPR is a good skill to have.
2014-05-07 01:16:33 AM  
3 votes:

Ambivalence: Most of what I learned is way out of date now


Nope, You still stop bleeding the same way. CPR itself has changed because it's mostly useless, but they keep trying to figure out ways to make it work better. Now, it's all compressions, don't stop giving compressions.
We'll see what they do in another 10 years.
2014-05-07 07:29:01 AM  
2 votes:
FTA:  "Even small new costs are a big burden on schools that already don't receive the funding they need," said Zach Messersmith, a lobbyist for the Illinois Association of School Boards.

Hmm...if only there was a useless parasite whose salary we could cut to get the kids CPR training...
2014-05-07 05:06:24 AM  
2 votes:
I just got my CPR certification renewed, and they finally added AED (those automatic defibs things) to it.  It was kind of neat.  You open it up, and it starts talking to you, telling you exactly how to use it.
2014-05-07 04:04:04 AM  
2 votes:

MaudlinMutantMollusk: /librarian is a job that needed to morph into another form
//more of a internet/research facilitator
///one with superior google-fu skills, if you will


I believe it will involve a lot more than Google-fu. It will be more along the lines of shaping the internet and bringing order out of chaos. I'm talking about major players, not helpers. Your average (which means hugely superior) research librarian can already run circles around Google search algorithms.

Library science is going to be crucial in this age of information. Very smart people are already there.
2014-05-07 03:43:22 AM  
2 votes:

MaudlinMutantMollusk: Ambivalence: I learned CPR in 6th grade.  learning basic first aid was mandatory. I learned how to do CPR, splint a broken limb, make a sling, all kinds of cool shiat.  Most of what I learned is way out of date now (I want to say it was 30 years ago?) but I knew it and there wasn't anything at all controversial about learning it.


I was a firefighter with full advanced first aid and cpr credentials at 16

/it isn't an ability or responsibility issue
//it's a money and liability issue


Liability?

Most states have a "good samaritin law" that says you cannot be sued for taking prudent action.

This law covers breaking ribs while doing cpr.

At least it does in my state...
2014-05-07 03:37:14 AM  
2 votes:
First time i was ever taught CPR, i was 9 years old.

Who taught me? The Boy Scouts of America.
2014-05-07 02:56:41 AM  
2 votes:

cretinbob: Teach them the statistics and what happens to a body that has CPR performed on it, then ask them if they want it done to them.


Most people would probably prefer to live temporarily with broken ribs than die
2014-05-07 02:51:48 AM  
2 votes:
This will save the lives of more Americans in one year than all the money pissed away on 'anti-terrorism efforts' to date.
2014-05-07 01:00:48 AM  
2 votes:
I learned CPR in 6th grade.  learning basic first aid was mandatory. I learned how to do CPR, splint a broken limb, make a sling, all kinds of cool shiat.  Most of what I learned is way out of date now (I want to say it was 30 years ago?) but I knew it and there wasn't anything at all controversial about learning it.
2014-05-07 02:02:14 PM  
1 votes:

cretinbob: If someone wants CPR performed, fine. But there needs to be some education on what happens. It's not a magic trick that all of the sudden you are going to come back to life and everything will be cool.


And yet, sometimes it is magic. Just last week, one of my wife's coworkers had a massive heart attack. To make matters worse, he was in the middle of nowhere, so it took 40 minutes for the paramedics to arrive. Fortunately, some of the people he was with knew CPR and they worked on him the entire time. As a result, the guy needs a little rehabilitation, but he's going to be fine.
2014-05-07 12:36:38 PM  
1 votes:
I'm not a trained medical professional and it has been years since I last had a valid CPR card from the Heart Association so I'll leave the debate about methods and stats to them, but I did spend nearly twenty years practicing law so here's my take on Good Samaritan laws and liability for someone who steps up and does CPR.  1. Most states do have Good Samaritan laws which shield anyone making a reasonable attempt to perform CPR even if they are not certified.  2. Medical professionals are generally held to a higher standard of care by virtue of their training, but that varies by state and the setting it is performed in- in a medical facility there is no reason not to apply the normal standards for professional malpractice, but outside of one what is reasonable (and therefore not negligent) will differ. 3. The legal realism take on CPR is that judges will be reluctant to let a case where a person in good faith performs CPR even if they aren't certified or don't follow current guidelines go to a jury and will look very hard for a legal basis to dismiss the case on summary judgement unless you are a horse's ass and prevent someone else on the scene who is qualified from taking over even if the jurisdiction doesn't have a Good Samaritan law, and if the case ever gets to a jury,  the average jury won't be inclined to come to a verdict against you or to award anything beyond nominal damages if the feel they have to find you liable. Short of pretending you are a medical professional or interfering with someone else who is attempting to perform CPR- you're very unlikely to be found liable for performing CPR
2014-05-07 08:52:12 AM  
1 votes:
The more you eat the more you fart:

"armchair quarterback, etc. etc."

O
h, you dear sweet child.

You stated that you and  hardinparamedicdon't usually agree.....I think that's because he's actually a professional medical provider, and you are not. Your statements lead me to believe that, while you  may be employed in a healthcare setting, you don't know the first thing about providing care. If you did, you would know that we don't "break ribs on purpose" while doing CPR. Does effective CPR tend to break ribs? Sure it does. Do we do it intentionally? No. If you do, you're a sadist.

Remember that the article was about teaching CPR to students. Those would be "laypeople," hence my assertion that continuous compressions (without the 30:2 ECC/Ventilation ratio) is the preferred (and correct) method.

Since you're a "nurse," you should also understand that Good Samaritan (notice I spelled it correctly) laws do not apply to medical professionals. You either do it right, or you are negligent.

And while I hate to respond to trolls like you who sling accusations while hiding behind a silly moniker, I will at least tell you that I have been a professional Paramedic for 21 years, and an ALS provider for five years before that (Intermediate level.) I am a Paramedic instructor and field preceptor, and have been a CPR Instructor for a dozen years.

And, son.....I was using the term "douchenozzle" before you could walk upright. It usually referred to wannabes like you.
2014-05-07 08:15:01 AM  
1 votes:

cretinbob: Teach them the statistics and what happens to a body that has CPR performed on it, then ask them if they want it done to them.


Young people do considerably better than the general population in CPR / Defib events.  I agree with you when dealing with the elderly or already gravely ill, but young people with sudden death are a good risk group to attempt to resuscitate.
2014-05-07 07:16:33 AM  
1 votes:

OtherLittleGuy: zarker: kling_klang_bed: They don't have school nurses anymore?

Generally, no, not in high school.

Then who holds all the EpiPens and OTC medicine that the students can't carry around?


What? Uh, in my high school those things were allowed. Even after a big to-do when a bunch of kids got stuck with one of those diabetic finger prickers (it eventually even got a hook on the tip, and it got stuck on my hand. We all knew each other and by some degree had shared bodily fluids anyway, someone outside the group reported it. Cops called, blood tests taken, clean results, no malice, blah blah blah)
I even shared zyrtec with some kids in front of teachers. Teachers were even allowed to offer cough drops! Oh the anarchy
2014-05-07 06:43:12 AM  
1 votes:

cretinbob: Teach them the statistics and what happens to a body that has CPR performed on it, then ask them if they want it done to them.


20-30% Survival to discharge rate with properly performed prearrival CPR and AED use in adult patients who arrest from a cardiac cause, versus a 100% chance of death.

Sounds good to me.

love-m'-beer: 1. You are talking out of your ass.


What are you talking about. The Ratio IS 30:2 if you are a healthcare provider in an adult patient, and you WILL break ribs in everyone except for the very young. In fact, if you DON'T break a rib in an elderly patient, you're not doing it right.

The only times compressions are done continuously are if A) You have a mechanical CPR device in place, such as AutoPulse or Lucas-II, or B) You have a secure airway in place, such as a King LT-D, LMA, or preferably an Endotracheal tube. The 2010 guidelines also state that intubation is a secondary consideration after IV access is established and should not interrupt the 30:2 cycle.

cretinbob: Nope, You still stop bleeding the same way. CPR itself has changed because it's mostly useless, but they keep trying to figure out ways to make it work better. Now, it's all compressions, don't stop giving compressions.
We'll see what they do in another 10 years.


It's not all compressions, unless you're a layperson who witnesses an adult arrest from a primarily cardiac cause - the ONLY time hands-only CPR is indicated before the arrival of EMS resources. Outside of an MI-induced or arrhythmia-induced cardiac arrest, CPR becomes far more complex as it focuses on buying time to reverse the causes.

And it's not another 10 years. BLS, PALS, and ACLS are both due for revisions next year. Due to the recent research into passive ventilation during compressions and reduction of intrathoracic pressure to improve bloodflow, you're going to see CPR adjuncts taking more and more of a place in resuscitation.
2014-05-07 05:20:24 AM  
1 votes:
Americans want everything, but are willing to actually pay for almost nothing.
2014-05-07 04:54:32 AM  
1 votes:
I was certified for CPR 3 times in high school, in the 80s.

I was re-certified at work a few months ago, so they'd have someone on site that knows it, and I work alone 3rd shift.  Defibrillators were mentioned, as the new ones talk the user through what to do.
2014-05-07 03:57:31 AM  
1 votes:

MaudlinMutantMollusk: The more you eat the more you fart: MaudlinMutantMollusk: Ambivalence: I learned CPR in 6th grade.  learning basic first aid was mandatory. I learned how to do CPR, splint a broken limb, make a sling, all kinds of cool shiat.  Most of what I learned is way out of date now (I want to say it was 30 years ago?) but I knew it and there wasn't anything at all controversial about learning it.


I was a firefighter with full advanced first aid and cpr credentials at 16

/it isn't an ability or responsibility issue
//it's a money and liability issue

Liability?

Most states have a "good samaritin law" that says you cannot be sued for taking prudent action.

This law covers breaking ribs while doing cpr.

At least it does in my state...

That may be so. I don't claim a 6th grade certificate in law, and it's been a long time since it was a subject I followed with any interest. Not that I'd care or hesitate if I needed to use my rusty skills

/may you live to sue my incompetent ass


And anyone who tried to sue you for that is a douche...and i think they would be hard-pressed to find a judge that would rule against you.
2014-05-07 03:34:33 AM  
1 votes:

Hermione_Granger: The only people who have a problem with it are people who think any person under the age of 21 should never be allowed to do anything but then when they're 21, they're adults who are adults who should suddenly know how to do everything.


That and the hordes of narcissistic wankstains who can't abide the idea of government spending for anything, no matter how inexpensive or vital, that does not benefit them clearly and directly.
2014-05-07 03:32:49 AM  
1 votes:

Dance Party: They have to have the defibrillators in IL schools, and the instructions on them are simple enough a 4th grader could follow them (well, most 4th graders).

zarker: Most people would probably prefer to live temporarily with broken ribs than die

That's what the paramedics who ran my first CPR class said.

If you break ribs, just reposition your hands and keep doing CPR.  They should live long enough to worry about broken ribs.


I work in an ER where we sometimes (okay..often) perform cpr.

Here's a dirty little secret: we INTENTIONALLY break ribs when doing cpr. The first person who initiates compressions...on the first compression will JAM down your sternum. Why? Because the suporting cartillage (you arent really breaking bone...you are separating cartillage from the sternum) prevents effevtive chest compressions.

We are trying to save your life. We need to keep blood circulating, and that means getting a good squeeze on your heart.
2014-05-07 03:15:32 AM  
1 votes:

kling_klang_bed: They don't have school nurses anymore?


Generally, no, not in high school.
2014-05-07 03:01:11 AM  
1 votes:
They have to have the defibrillators in IL schools, and the instructions on them are simple enough a 4th grader could follow them (well, most 4th graders).

zarker: Most people would probably prefer to live temporarily with broken ribs than die


That's what the paramedics who ran my first CPR class said.

If you break ribs, just reposition your hands and keep doing CPR.  They should live long enough to worry about broken ribs.
2014-05-07 02:48:51 AM  
1 votes:
"Even small new costs are a big burden on schools that already don't receive the funding they need," said Zach Messersmith, a lobbyist for the Illinois Association of School Boards.

So make the damned football team do a few carwashes and tell the lacross players to hold a bake sale.
2014-05-07 02:31:42 AM  
1 votes:
We had to learn it in 9th grade health class on a rubber mannequin named "Annie." But she had no arms and legs, so I guess it was basically just a torso with a female head and red hair. Of course, her mouth had to be sterilized with rubbing alcohol before each student could practice. Tasted and smelled nasty. Looking back, it seems so farked up.
2014-05-07 01:27:12 AM  
1 votes:

Ambivalence: I learned CPR in 6th grade.  learning basic first aid was mandatory. I learned how to do CPR, splint a broken limb, make a sling, all kinds of cool shiat.  Most of what I learned is way out of date now (I want to say it was 30 years ago?) but I knew it and there wasn't anything at all controversial about learning it.



I was a firefighter with full advanced first aid and cpr credentials at 16

/it isn't an ability or responsibility issue
//it's a money and liability issue
2014-05-07 01:24:57 AM  
1 votes:
A CPR course was mandatory when I was in high school. But that was like a decade and a half ago, back when the Earth was flat and people thought California was an island in the Pacific.
2014-05-07 01:14:41 AM  
1 votes:

Ambivalence: I learned CPR in 6th grade.  learning basic first aid was mandatory. I learned how to do CPR, splint a broken limb, make a sling, all kinds of cool shiat.  Most of what I learned is way out of date now (I want to say it was 30 years ago?) but I knew it and there wasn't anything at all controversial about learning it.


The controversy doesn't appear to be about the learning. It's about paying for the learning.
2014-05-07 12:31:51 AM  
1 votes:
Those people with the problems can go f*ck themselves.
 
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