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(Chicago Trib)   New bill would require high schools to teach students how to perform CPR and use defibrillators. Naturally, some people have a problem with this   (chicagotribune.com) divider line 127
    More: Interesting, CPR, high schools, Illinois, George Laman, Illinois House, Elmhurst, St. Charles, American Heart Association  
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4043 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 May 2014 at 2:35 AM (16 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-07 06:45:05 AM

Richard C Stanford: cretinbob: Ambivalence: Most of what I learned is way out of date now

Nope, You still stop bleeding the same way. CPR itself has changed because it's mostly useless, but they keep trying to figure out ways to make it work better. Now, it's all compressions, don't stop giving compressions.
We'll see what they do in another 10 years.

I was taught CPR in high school two years ago. They told me to do a ratio of 30:2. 30 chest compressions to two breaths.


The 2010 standard was 30 and 2. There may be more up-to-date ones, which is why CPR is an annual qualification.
 
2014-05-07 06:50:05 AM
By the way, CPR does save lives (Warning: Actual cardiac arrest and working code with save)

agent00pi: The 2010 standard was 30 and 2. There may be more up-to-date ones, which is why CPR is an annual qualification.


2015 will be the next standard for Neonatal Resuscitation, BLS and Heartsaver, ACLS and PALS, and 2016 is when ACLS for Experienced Providers will get revised. They revise every five years because of new evidence, and they recommend recert every two years because most people will not use resuscitation skills every day - or even every year, and the evidence has shown that even healthcare providers get rusty if they do not use the skills.
 
2014-05-07 06:50:17 AM

Smoking GNU: AFAIK cpr only has a 13% success rate, andbrings the risk if breakung some ribs. Personally, i'd prefer a 13% chance to live and a few broken ribs over being a cooling corpse waiting for an ambulance to arrive.

/please correct me if i have some of the facts wrong


Just had my CPR refresher two weeks ago - card was sitting in my inbox at work yesterday.

You're right, with one caveat - the 10% success rate is for CPR alone. That jumps to 30%-40% if you have an AED on hand, charged and ready to go. And AEDs are getting cheap enough that almost everywhere has them, and they're simple enough they're pretty much idiot proof (although it is a bit weird when you open one up for the first time and it starts yelling commands at you).

So if you gotta do it, hope like hell that there is an AED nearby.

The more you eat the more you fart: Incorrect. It is 30 to 2.


Bob is correct that the national guidelines are moving away from giving rescue breaths. We were told that under the new guidelines, they are optional, and if you don't have a face shield, then don't worry about them at all. Seems weird, but apparently the stats show that 100bpm chest compressions are way more important than the breaths, which don't do all that much to help.

red5ish: MaudlinMutantMollusk: /librarian is a job that needed to morph into another form
//more of a internet/research facilitator
///one with superior google-fu skills, if you will

I believe it will involve a lot more than Google-fu. It will be more along the lines of shaping the internet and bringing order out of chaos. I'm talking about major players, not helpers. Your average (which means hugely superior) research librarian can already run circles around Google search algorithms.

Library science is going to be crucial in this age of information. Very smart people are already there.


My experience in grad school was that the LS & IS people are some of the best people on the planet. Young, smart, and they will freely admit that they don't know everything, but I'll be damned if they don't know where to find it or about it. These are people that literally go through their day hoping to have a chance to show off their skills at trolling the depths of human knowledge for specific facts.

So protip: if you ever go to grad school, make friends with the graduate LS students. Most of them work in the campus libraries anyways, and stay perpetually bored because undergrads would rather google something than ask a librarian. Being friends will them will make your graduate school experience vastly easier in the long run.
 
2014-05-07 07:00:23 AM

Elegy: We were told that under the new guidelines, they are optional, and if you don't have a face shield, then don't worry about them at all. Seems weird, but apparently the stats show that 100bpm chest compressions are way more important than the breaths, which don't do all that much to help.


It's a little bit more complex than that. Hands-only CPR is recommended for two reasons:

1) Like you said, it's easier to get someone to pump on someone's chest than it is to get someone to rescue breathe for someone.
2) In a sudden cardiac arrest caused by a primarily cardiac cause (i.e. a heart attack, heart arrhythmia), the blood arterial oxygen content and residual tidal volume in the lungs is enough to support that person's decreased metabolic and perfusion status for several minutes initially, in addition to passive ventilation that occurs when someone is performing chest compressions. In these cases, the problem is not one of low oxygenation, it's of perfusion to the coronary arteries and myocardium, and restoring perfusion to buy time until defibrillation.

Witnessed, sudden cardiac arrest in an adult that is not of a complex medical or respiratory cause is the  only reason to perform hands-only CPR. In every other population,  especially kids and infants, respiratory management is of the utmost importance, because the arrest is compounded by both hypoxia and hypercarbia (CO2 retention), which leads to acidosis. Hearts don't beat in an acidotic body, even if you pump on them.
 
2014-05-07 07:04:54 AM

zarker: kling_klang_bed: They don't have school nurses anymore?

Generally, no, not in high school.


Then who holds all the EpiPens and OTC medicine that the students can't carry around?
 
2014-05-07 07:07:34 AM

OtherLittleGuy: Then who holds all the EpiPens and OTC medicine that the students can't carry around?


Usually the secretary at the office if they don't have an on-site school nurse. Most schools now don't keep OTC medicine unless it's prescribed to the child, because of the liability of giving medication to children without parental permission.
 
2014-05-07 07:09:05 AM
I'd prefer they teach students how to drive and pay their taxes. I've been out of school a long time and never needed to use CPR.
 
2014-05-07 07:16:33 AM

OtherLittleGuy: zarker: kling_klang_bed: They don't have school nurses anymore?

Generally, no, not in high school.

Then who holds all the EpiPens and OTC medicine that the students can't carry around?


What? Uh, in my high school those things were allowed. Even after a big to-do when a bunch of kids got stuck with one of those diabetic finger prickers (it eventually even got a hook on the tip, and it got stuck on my hand. We all knew each other and by some degree had shared bodily fluids anyway, someone outside the group reported it. Cops called, blood tests taken, clean results, no malice, blah blah blah)
I even shared zyrtec with some kids in front of teachers. Teachers were even allowed to offer cough drops! Oh the anarchy
 
2014-05-07 07:18:38 AM
Defibs don't restart hearts that have stopped beating.  This needs to be taught.
 
2014-05-07 07:20:45 AM

zarker: OtherLittleGuy: zarker: kling_klang_bed: They don't have school nurses anymore?

Generally, no, not in high school.

Then who holds all the EpiPens and OTC medicine that the students can't carry around?

What? Uh, in my high school those things were allowed. Even after a big to-do when a bunch of kids got stuck with one of those diabetic finger prickers (it eventually even got a hook on the tip, and it got stuck on my hand. We all knew each other and by some degree had shared bodily fluids anyway, someone outside the group reported it. Cops called, blood tests taken, clean results, no malice, blah blah blah)
I even shared zyrtec with some kids in front of teachers. Teachers were even allowed to offer cough drops! Oh the anarchy


Back when I was in school, aspirin and Tylenol were not allowed.  If you had a headache, you could go to the nurse's office to lie down in a darkened room for the rest of the hour.
 
2014-05-07 07:25:10 AM

love-m'-beer: The more you eat the more you fart:

Incorrect. It is 30 to 2.

Here's a dirty little secret: we INTENTIONALLY break ribs when doing cpr.

Most states have a "good samaritin law" that says you cannot be sued for taking prudent action.

This law covers breaking ribs while doing cpr.


Two things are clear:
1. You are talking out of your ass.
2. While doing said talking you are demonstrating that you don't know a damned thing about healthcare, Emergency Medicine, or current CPR recommendations.

IF you actually work in an ER, I wouldn't want to be a patient there. Of course, you probably don't get any closer to patients than the end of your mop handle.


Two things:

You obviously dont know what you are talking about bc in bls certification, they TELL you to "push hard on the first compression".

2. Ibe been in healthcare long enough to know an armchair quarterback when i see one.

Go back to reading webMD.
 
2014-05-07 07:29:01 AM
FTA:  "Even small new costs are a big burden on schools that already don't receive the funding they need," said Zach Messersmith, a lobbyist for the Illinois Association of School Boards.

Hmm...if only there was a useless parasite whose salary we could cut to get the kids CPR training...
 
2014-05-07 07:29:12 AM

hardinparamedic: Elegy: We were told that under the new guidelines, they are optional, and if you don't have a face shield, then don't worry about them at all. Seems weird, but apparently the stats show that 100bpm chest compressions are way more important than the breaths, which don't do all that much to help.

It's a little bit more complex than that. Hands-only CPR is recommended for two reasons:

1) Like you said, it's easier to get someone to pump on someone's chest than it is to get someone to rescue breathe for someone.
2) In a sudden cardiac arrest caused by a primarily cardiac cause (i.e. a heart attack, heart arrhythmia), the blood arterial oxygen content and residual tidal volume in the lungs is enough to support that person's decreased metabolic and perfusion status for several minutes initially, in addition to passive ventilation that occurs when someone is performing chest compressions. In these cases, the problem is not one of low oxygenation, it's of perfusion to the coronary arteries and myocardium, and restoring perfusion to buy time until defibrillation.

Witnessed, sudden cardiac arrest in an adult that is not of a complex medical or respiratory cause is the  only reason to perform hands-only CPR. In every other population,  especially kids and infants, respiratory management is of the utmost importance, because the arrest is compounded by both hypoxia and hypercarbia (CO2 retention), which leads to acidosis. Hearts don't beat in an acidotic body, even if you pump on them.


Hardin is correct..even tho he and i often do not get along.

Doing adequate compressions will inflate/deflate the lungs unless there is a blockage.

100bpm is recommended...you can watch the ECG to see if you are doing them correctly.
 
2014-05-07 07:32:00 AM

love-m'-beer: The more you eat the more you fart:

Incorrect. It is 30 to 2.

Here's a dirty little secret: we INTENTIONALLY break ribs when doing cpr.

Most states have a "good samaritin law" that says you cannot be sued for taking prudent action.

This law covers breaking ribs while doing cpr.


Two things are clear:
1. You are talking out of your ass.
2. While doing said talking you are demonstrating that you don't know a damned thing about healthcare, Emergency Medicine, or current CPR recommendations.

IF you actually work in an ER, I wouldn't want to be a patient there. Of course, you probably don't get any closer to patients than the end of your mop handle.


Nice try douchenozzle.

Im still correct, and you are still a douche..who is also wrong.
 
2014-05-07 07:32:34 AM

Elegy: Smoking GNU: AFAIK cpr only has a 13% success rate, andbrings the risk if breakung some ribs. Personally, i'd prefer a 13% chance to live and a few broken ribs over being a cooling corpse waiting for an ambulance to arrive.

/please correct me if i have some of the facts wrong

Just had my CPR refresher two weeks ago - card was sitting in my inbox at work yesterday.

You're right, with one caveat - the 10% success rate is for CPR alone. That jumps to 30%-40% if you have an AED on hand, charged and ready to go. And AEDs are getting cheap enough that almost everywhere has them, and they're simple enough they're pretty much idiot proof (although it is a bit weird when you open one up for the first time and it starts yelling commands at you).

So if you gotta do it, hope like hell that there is an AED nearby.

The more you eat the more you fart: Incorrect. It is 30 to 2.

Bob is correct that the national guidelines are moving away from giving rescue breaths. We were told that under the new guidelines, they are optional, and if you don't have a face shield, then don't worry about them at all. Seems weird, but apparently the stats show that 100bpm chest compressions are way more important than the breaths, which don't do all that much to help.


I'd imagine the compressions themselves get a little air into the lungs, at least.

Can us ordinary civilian slobs buy AEDs?  Should we keep one in the car?  how often do they need to be charged?

/was an Army medic
//skills are WAY out of date
 
2014-05-07 07:38:28 AM

PunGent: Elegy: Smoking GNU: AFAIK cpr only has a 13% success rate, andbrings the risk if breakung some ribs. Personally, i'd prefer a 13% chance to live and a few broken ribs over being a cooling corpse waiting for an ambulance to arrive.

/please correct me if i have some of the facts wrong

Just had my CPR refresher two weeks ago - card was sitting in my inbox at work yesterday.

You're right, with one caveat - the 10% success rate is for CPR alone. That jumps to 30%-40% if you have an AED on hand, charged and ready to go. And AEDs are getting cheap enough that almost everywhere has them, and they're simple enough they're pretty much idiot proof (although it is a bit weird when you open one up for the first time and it starts yelling commands at you).

So if you gotta do it, hope like hell that there is an AED nearby.

The more you eat the more you fart: Incorrect. It is 30 to 2.

Bob is correct that the national guidelines are moving away from giving rescue breaths. We were told that under the new guidelines, they are optional, and if you don't have a face shield, then don't worry about them at all. Seems weird, but apparently the stats show that 100bpm chest compressions are way more important than the breaths, which don't do all that much to help.

I'd imagine the compressions themselves get a little air into the lungs, at least.

Can us ordinary civilian slobs buy AEDs?  Should we keep one in the car?  how often do they need to be charged?

/was an Army medic
//skills are WAY out of date


In order: yes. Some pasdive ventillation occurs during proper cpr. Keyword: proper. But its still nothing like getting them intubated and bagged.


Second: yes. You can buy aed's for home use. Most are in the $150-$250 range.
 
2014-05-07 07:45:11 AM

The more you eat the more you fart: love-m'-beer: The more you eat the more you fart:

Incorrect. It is 30 to 2.

Here's a dirty little secret: we INTENTIONALLY break ribs when doing cpr.

Most states have a "good samaritin law" that says you cannot be sued for taking prudent action.

This law covers breaking ribs while doing cpr.


Two things are clear:
1. You are talking out of your ass.
2. While doing said talking you are demonstrating that you don't know a damned thing about healthcare, Emergency Medicine, or current CPR recommendations.

IF you actually work in an ER, I wouldn't want to be a patient there. Of course, you probably don't get any closer to patients than the end of your mop handle.

Nice try douchenozzle.

Im still correct, and you are still a douche..who is also wrong.


Let's just all agree that a fark party would be the worst place to end up in need of CPR
In an emergency room, it's unlikely only one nurse would be involved in the CPR
 
2014-05-07 07:54:38 AM

hardinparamedic: Elegy: We were told that under the new guidelines, they are optional, and if you don't have a face shield, then don't worry about them at all. Seems weird, but apparently the stats show that 100bpm chest compressions are way more important than the breaths, which don't do all that much to help.

It's a little bit more complex than that. Hands-only CPR is recommended for two reasons:

1) Like you said, it's easier to get someone to pump on someone's chest than it is to get someone to rescue breathe for someone.
2) In a sudden cardiac arrest caused by a primarily cardiac cause (i.e. a heart attack, heart arrhythmia), the blood arterial oxygen content and residual tidal volume in the lungs is enough to support that person's decreased metabolic and perfusion status for several minutes initially, in addition to passive ventilation that occurs when someone is performing chest compressions. In these cases, the problem is not one of low oxygenation, it's of perfusion to the coronary arteries and myocardium, and restoring perfusion to buy time until defibrillation.

Witnessed, sudden cardiac arrest in an adult that is not of a complex medical or respiratory cause is the  only reason to perform hands-only CPR. In every other population,  especially kids and infants, respiratory management is of the utmost importance, because the arrest is compounded by both hypoxia and hypercarbia (CO2 retention), which leads to acidosis. Hearts don't beat in an acidotic body, even if you pump on them.


You're the professional, so you definitely know better. I'm just relating what the CPR man said since it was fresh in my mind.

I'm not squeamish, so I'll be doing rescue breaths regardless. Free kisses!

Second: yes. You can buy aed's for home use. Most are in the $150-$250 range.

That sounds a biatcheap. CPR trainer quoted $400-600 for a refurb, but a quick google didn't reveal anything under $1000. Don't really have time right now to search for a great deal on an AED though
 
2014-05-07 07:54:56 AM

zarker: The more you eat the more you fart: love-m'-beer: The more you eat the more you fart:

Incorrect. It is 30 to 2.

Here's a dirty little secret: we INTENTIONALLY break ribs when doing cpr.

Most states have a "good samaritin law" that says you cannot be sued for taking prudent action.

This law covers breaking ribs while doing cpr.


Two things are clear:
1. You are talking out of your ass.
2. While doing said talking you are demonstrating that you don't know a damned thing about healthcare, Emergency Medicine, or current CPR recommendations.

IF you actually work in an ER, I wouldn't want to be a patient there. Of course, you probably don't get any closer to patients than the end of your mop handle.

Nice try douchenozzle.

Im still correct, and you are still a douche..who is also wrong.

Let's just all agree that a fark party would be the worst place to end up in need of CPR
In an emergency room, it's unlikely only one nurse would be involved in the CPR


Ever worked in one?

I have. Lots. In fact...for 14 years.

There are plenty of times one nurse is doing cpr...while everone else is trying to start iv's or hook them uo to ecg's and draw meds, etc.
 
2014-05-07 07:56:03 AM

Elegy: hardinparamedic: Elegy: We were told that under the new guidelines, they are optional, and if you don't have a face shield, then don't worry about them at all. Seems weird, but apparently the stats show that 100bpm chest compressions are way more important than the breaths, which don't do all that much to help.

It's a little bit more complex than that. Hands-only CPR is recommended for two reasons:

1) Like you said, it's easier to get someone to pump on someone's chest than it is to get someone to rescue breathe for someone.
2) In a sudden cardiac arrest caused by a primarily cardiac cause (i.e. a heart attack, heart arrhythmia), the blood arterial oxygen content and residual tidal volume in the lungs is enough to support that person's decreased metabolic and perfusion status for several minutes initially, in addition to passive ventilation that occurs when someone is performing chest compressions. In these cases, the problem is not one of low oxygenation, it's of perfusion to the coronary arteries and myocardium, and restoring perfusion to buy time until defibrillation.

Witnessed, sudden cardiac arrest in an adult that is not of a complex medical or respiratory cause is the  only reason to perform hands-only CPR. In every other population,  especially kids and infants, respiratory management is of the utmost importance, because the arrest is compounded by both hypoxia and hypercarbia (CO2 retention), which leads to acidosis. Hearts don't beat in an acidotic body, even if you pump on them.

You're the professional, so you definitely know better. I'm just relating what the CPR man said since it was fresh in my mind.

I'm not squeamish, so I'll be doing rescue breaths regardless. Free kisses!

Second: yes. You can buy aed's for home use. Most are in the $150-$250 range.

That sounds a biatcheap. CPR trainer quoted $400-600 for a refurb, but a quick google didn't reveal anything under $1000. Don't really have time right now to search for a great deal on an AED though


Check amazon. Lol

I saw a few for $250
 
2014-05-07 07:56:26 AM

The more you eat the more you fart: PunGent: Elegy: Smoking GNU: AFAIK cpr only has a 13% success rate, andbrings the risk if breakung some ribs. Personally, i'd prefer a 13% chance to live and a few broken ribs over being a cooling corpse waiting for an ambulance to arrive.

/please correct me if i have some of the facts wrong

Just had my CPR refresher two weeks ago - card was sitting in my inbox at work yesterday.

You're right, with one caveat - the 10% success rate is for CPR alone. That jumps to 30%-40% if you have an AED on hand, charged and ready to go. And AEDs are getting cheap enough that almost everywhere has them, and they're simple enough they're pretty much idiot proof (although it is a bit weird when you open one up for the first time and it starts yelling commands at you).

So if you gotta do it, hope like hell that there is an AED nearby.

The more you eat the more you fart: Incorrect. It is 30 to 2.

Bob is correct that the national guidelines are moving away from giving rescue breaths. We were told that under the new guidelines, they are optional, and if you don't have a face shield, then don't worry about them at all. Seems weird, but apparently the stats show that 100bpm chest compressions are way more important than the breaths, which don't do all that much to help.

I'd imagine the compressions themselves get a little air into the lungs, at least.

Can us ordinary civilian slobs buy AEDs?  Should we keep one in the car?  how often do they need to be charged?

/was an Army medic
//skills are WAY out of date

In order: yes. Some pasdive ventillation occurs during proper cpr. Keyword: proper. But its still nothing like getting them intubated and bagged.


Second: yes. You can buy aed's for home use. Most are in the $150-$250 range.


I understand the need for intubation, and I'm not going to try to be an EMT, don't worry :)

Any particular brands of AEDs to buy/avoid, to your knowledge?  How long do the batteries last?
 
2014-05-07 08:03:42 AM

The more you eat the more you fart: zarker: The more you eat the more you fart: love-m'-beer: The more you eat the more you fart:

Incorrect. It is 30 to 2.

Here's a dirty little secret: we INTENTIONALLY break ribs when doing cpr.

Most states have a "good samaritin law" that says you cannot be sued for taking prudent action.

This law covers breaking ribs while doing cpr.


Two things are clear:
1. You are talking out of your ass.
2. While doing said talking you are demonstrating that you don't know a damned thing about healthcare, Emergency Medicine, or current CPR recommendations.

IF you actually work in an ER, I wouldn't want to be a patient there. Of course, you probably don't get any closer to patients than the end of your mop handle.

Nice try douchenozzle.

Im still correct, and you are still a douche..who is also wrong.

Let's just all agree that a fark party would be the worst place to end up in need of CPR
In an emergency room, it's unlikely only one nurse would be involved in the CPR

Ever worked in one?

I have. Lots. In fact...for 14 years.

There are plenty of times one nurse is doing cpr...while everone else is trying to start iv's or hook them uo to ecg's and draw meds, etc.


I just meant if for some reason the cpr wasn't going how cpr is supposed to go (your nurse cred was questioned) that there would likely be someone nearby to help or take over
 
2014-05-07 08:06:05 AM
Amazon $250

Hmm, I went and looked, and most of the stuff in the $250 range is either the case only, or trainers.

PunGent: Any particular brands of AEDs to buy/avoid, to your knowledge?  How long do the batteries last?

My quick tour of google and Amazon reveals something to watch out for: be careful you aren't getting a trainer, especially if you buy off eBay or something. Trainers run off AA's and don't deliver any juice to the pads.

Batteries are lithium packs and good for 1-3 years, I believe. You should check em monthly, but they usually don't need to topped off or anything - they'll hold a charge for a good long time.

Or at least, that's the maintenance schedule for the AEDs in our fleet vehicles. I'm not a medical professional, and the extent of my AED training has been slapping some practice pads on a CPR dummy.
 
2014-05-07 08:15:01 AM

cretinbob: Teach them the statistics and what happens to a body that has CPR performed on it, then ask them if they want it done to them.


Young people do considerably better than the general population in CPR / Defib events.  I agree with you when dealing with the elderly or already gravely ill, but young people with sudden death are a good risk group to attempt to resuscitate.
 
2014-05-07 08:17:35 AM

Elegy: Amazon $250

Hmm, I went and looked, and most of the stuff in the $250 range is either the case only, or trainers.

PunGent: Any particular brands of AEDs to buy/avoid, to your knowledge?  How long do the batteries last?

My quick tour of google and Amazon reveals something to watch out for: be careful you aren't getting a trainer, especially if you buy off eBay or something. Trainers run off AA's and don't deliver any juice to the pads.

Batteries are lithium packs and good for 1-3 years, I believe. You should check em monthly, but they usually don't need to topped off or anything - they'll hold a charge for a good long time.

Or at least, that's the maintenance schedule for the AEDs in our fleet vehicles. I'm not a medical professional, and the extent of my AED training has been slapping some practice pads on a CPR dummy.


This.
 
2014-05-07 08:18:03 AM
I suspect that most Americans, let alone HS students, couldn't maintain CPR compressions long enough to make a difference.
 
2014-05-07 08:18:20 AM

Sgt Otter: I just got my CPR certification renewed, and they finally added AED (those automatic defibs things) to it. It was kind of neat. You open it up, and it starts talking to you, telling you exactly how to use it.


They're pretty awesome.  We had one actually used at the ski resort where I work.  The guy using it was a qualified first responder, but it was simple, and everyone from the ambulance crew to the attending physician agree that it saved that guys life.

Jokes aside about the "RonCo Pocked Defibs", those things are pretty great.
 
2014-05-07 08:25:00 AM

wildcardjack: I suspect that most Americans, let alone HS students, couldn't maintain CPR compressions long enough to make a difference.


Adrenaline is a hell of a drug. In the situation mentioned in the article, where she just kind of sat down, most people probably wouldn't be very determined in their efforts. But if someone does the clutch and fall thing, it might just cause enough of a reaction for someone who has been trained to fly into action
 
2014-05-07 08:25:59 AM

wildcardjack: I suspect that most Americans, let alone HS students, couldn't maintain CPR compressions long enough to make a difference.


I do it all the time, and it's rare for anyone to be able to keep up CPR for longer than 15 or 20 minutes
 
2014-05-07 08:26:18 AM

The more you eat the more you fart: PunGent: Elegy: Smoking GNU: AFAIK cpr only has a 13% success rate, andbrings the risk if breakung some ribs. Personally, i'd prefer a 13% chance to live and a few broken ribs over being a cooling corpse waiting for an ambulance to arrive.

/please correct me if i have some of the facts wrong

Just had my CPR refresher two weeks ago - card was sitting in my inbox at work yesterday.

You're right, with one caveat - the 10% success rate is for CPR alone. That jumps to 30%-40% if you have an AED on hand, charged and ready to go. And AEDs are getting cheap enough that almost everywhere has them, and they're simple enough they're pretty much idiot proof (although it is a bit weird when you open one up for the first time and it starts yelling commands at you).

So if you gotta do it, hope like hell that there is an AED nearby.

The more you eat the more you fart: Incorrect. It is 30 to 2.

Bob is correct that the national guidelines are moving away from giving rescue breaths. We were told that under the new guidelines, they are optional, and if you don't have a face shield, then don't worry about them at all. Seems weird, but apparently the stats show that 100bpm chest compressions are way more important than the breaths, which don't do all that much to help.

I'd imagine the compressions themselves get a little air into the lungs, at least.

Can us ordinary civilian slobs buy AEDs?  Should we keep one in the car?  how often do they need to be charged?

/was an Army medic
//skills are WAY out of date

In order: yes. Some pasdive ventillation occurs during proper cpr. Keyword: proper. But its still nothing like getting them intubated and bagged.


Second: yes. You can buy aed's for home use. Most are in the $150-$250 range.


They're also damn near idiot proof to use. A lot of insurance covers their installation as well, at least for business owners.
 
2014-05-07 08:33:27 AM
CPR, yes.

"Giggle ZAP Giggle ZAP" *tackle*  *arrest* *lawsuit by parents*  Well, that may be fun for students too
 
2014-05-07 08:35:31 AM

alywa: cretinbob: Teach them the statistics and what happens to a body that has CPR performed on it, then ask them if they want it done to them.

Young people do considerably better than the general population in CPR / Defib events.  I agree with you when dealing with the elderly or already gravely ill, but young people with sudden death are a good risk group to attempt to resuscitate.


This is what my trainer told us when some people expressed trepidation about performing CPR in an emergency, breaking ribs, etc:

If you are performing CPR on a person that has had a sudden cardiac arrest, their heart has stopped and they are dead. And there is nothing you can do that will make their problems any worse than being dead.

While not technically accurate (I believe the medical term is "mostly dead"), it stuck with me as a good way to frame my choice of whether or not I would perform CPR. I would accept the caveat about the elderly, however. Broken ribs and farked up sternum at 83? Dead might actually be the better choice, versus weeks or months of hospital followed by dead.
 
2014-05-07 08:38:54 AM
I had a CPR (and other first-aid stuff) class in high school, but it was voluntary and after school.
The fire department had proposed the classes and gotten a grant to fund it.

I think that sort of training should be mandatory for faculty and staff, but not necessarily for students.
 
2014-05-07 08:39:06 AM

RatMaster999: "Even small new costs are a big burden on schools that already don't receive the funding they need," said Zach Messersmith, a lobbyist for the Illinois Association of School Boards.

So make the damned football team do a few carwashes and tell the lacross players to hold a bake sale.


You realize that between tickets sales and concessions, middle American football teams are likely profitable for schools.
 
2014-05-07 08:40:46 AM

zarker: wildcardjack: I suspect that most Americans, let alone HS students, couldn't maintain CPR compressions long enough to make a difference.

Adrenaline is a hell of a drug. In the situation mentioned in the article, where she just kind of sat down, most people probably wouldn't be very determined in their efforts. But if someone does the clutch and fall thing, it might just cause enough of a reaction for someone who has been trained to fly into action


You can always tell the experienced people because they are usually the ones NOT "flying into action". There is a process..an order of things to be done. The work is done quickly, but calmly.

I can say from experience, in general, you get two tries in an ER. Freak out once, and someone will walk you through things. Freak out twice, and you aren't going to be an ER nurse.

Sometimes, to the untrained eye, it looks like people are taking their time, etc. In reality, its a practiced routine...and rushing means mistakes, and mistakes means lives.

We've had ppl yell at us (family members, etc) for not immediately starting cpr. We dont have time to stop and calmly explain we first have to determine if cpr is even warranted...or if their pukse is just very thready and hard to detect by untrained people.
 
2014-05-07 08:43:01 AM
Why require it? There are a lot of people who would not use their learned skills because it's icky to deal with sick or injured people.
 
2014-05-07 08:46:32 AM

Elegy: alywa: cretinbob: Teach them the statistics and what happens to a body that has CPR performed on it, then ask them if they want it done to them.

Young people do considerably better than the general population in CPR / Defib events.  I agree with you when dealing with the elderly or already gravely ill, but young people with sudden death are a good risk group to attempt to resuscitate.

This is what my trainer told us when some people expressed trepidation about performing CPR in an emergency, breaking ribs, etc:

If you are performing CPR on a person that has had a sudden cardiac arrest, their heart has stopped and they are dead. And there is nothing you can do that will make their problems any worse than being dead.

While not technically accurate (I believe the medical term is "mostly dead"), it stuck with me as a good way to frame my choice of whether or not I would perform CPR. I would accept the caveat about the elderly, however. Broken ribs and farked up sternum at 83? Dead might actually be the better choice, versus weeks or months of hospital followed by dead.


While i see both sides, i cannot be unbiased.

I DO agree in certain circumstances like terminal illnesses and tje like that cpr is tantamount to pointless abuse.

However..if grandma is 83 and otherwise healthy...

And for the record: you are not actually breaking ribs...well..maybe one or two. What happens is the costal cartilage is torn away from the sternum.

The sensation under your hands is similar to the bubble wrap with the BIG bubbles popping...and it is audible as a kind of dull "pop" but multiple of them in rapid succession like cracking your knuckles.
 
2014-05-07 08:52:12 AM
The more you eat the more you fart:

"armchair quarterback, etc. etc."

O
h, you dear sweet child.

You stated that you and  hardinparamedicdon't usually agree.....I think that's because he's actually a professional medical provider, and you are not. Your statements lead me to believe that, while you  may be employed in a healthcare setting, you don't know the first thing about providing care. If you did, you would know that we don't "break ribs on purpose" while doing CPR. Does effective CPR tend to break ribs? Sure it does. Do we do it intentionally? No. If you do, you're a sadist.

Remember that the article was about teaching CPR to students. Those would be "laypeople," hence my assertion that continuous compressions (without the 30:2 ECC/Ventilation ratio) is the preferred (and correct) method.

Since you're a "nurse," you should also understand that Good Samaritan (notice I spelled it correctly) laws do not apply to medical professionals. You either do it right, or you are negligent.

And while I hate to respond to trolls like you who sling accusations while hiding behind a silly moniker, I will at least tell you that I have been a professional Paramedic for 21 years, and an ALS provider for five years before that (Intermediate level.) I am a Paramedic instructor and field preceptor, and have been a CPR Instructor for a dozen years.

And, son.....I was using the term "douchenozzle" before you could walk upright. It usually referred to wannabes like you.
 
2014-05-07 09:01:36 AM

cretinbob: Ambivalence: Most of what I learned is way out of date now

Nope, You still stop bleeding the same way. CPR itself has changed because it's mostly useless, but they keep trying to figure out ways to make it work better. Now, it's all compressions, don't stop giving compressions.
We'll see what they do in another 10 years.


It's not totally useless, though. Early CPR, defibrilation and advanced emergency cardiac care vastly increase the chance of survival under the right circumstances. A trauma arrest has a near zero chance of survival. An arrest due to ventricular fibrilation has a high success rate when care is provided early. The trouble is that a bystander has no way to know whether a pulseless non-breather is in v-fib or is asystolic. So why not give it a try? Worst case, the AED won't deliver a shock and you'll break some ribs on a corpse. The best case is a complete recovery.

In the case of the girl in the article, I don't know that a defibrilator would have been effective or not, but why not give an 18-year old the best shot she can get?
 
2014-05-07 09:07:34 AM
wth is all this talk about "cost" and "unfunded mandates" - it's a freaking *school* - teaching stuff should be included in the freakin' base model, not the premium model.

and fwiw, did my cpr for healthcare providers renewal last year, took about 4 hours, and we really could have hit the bullet points in a half hour.
 
2014-05-07 09:10:36 AM

love-m'-beer: The more you eat the more you fart:

"armchair quarterback, etc. etc."

Oh, you dear sweet child.

You stated that you and  hardinparamedicdon't usually agree.....I think that's because he's actually a professional medical provider, and you are not. Your statements lead me to believe that, while you  may be employed in a healthcare setting, you don't know the first thing about providing care. If you did, you would know that we don't "break ribs on purpose" while doing CPR. Does effective CPR tend to break ribs? Sure it does. Do we do it intentionally? No. If you do, you're a sadist.

Remember that the article was about teaching CPR to students. Those would be "laypeople," hence my assertion that continuous compressions (without the 30:2 ECC/Ventilation ratio) is the preferred (and correct) method.

Since you're a "nurse," you should also understand that Good Samaritan (notice I spelled it correctly) laws do not apply to medical professionals. You either do it right, or you are negligent.

And while I hate to respond to trolls like you who sling accusations while hiding behind a silly moniker, I will at least tell you that I have been a professional Paramedic for 21 years, and an ALS provider for five years before that (Intermediate level.) I am a Paramedic instructor and field preceptor, and have been a CPR Instructor for a dozen years.

And, son.....I was using the term "douchenozzle" before you could walk upright. It usually referred to wannabes like you.


You are incorrect yet again on MANY things..but ill just point out one: the good samaritan law covers nurses in my state when performing cpr outside of a hospital setting. It does NOT cover ems and paramedics.

And i stand by my statement regarding compressions, as this is how EVERY instructor i have been to has taught us...and is exactly what we are told in the ER.

And ill tell YOU: i habe worked in the biggest hospital in my state for 14 years, all of them primarily in the ER (or E.D. as it is actually called). I have been licensed as a nurse for 16 years and am a nurse preceptor for new grads, carrying magnet status for the last 8 years in a row.

Go preach your shiat somewhere else kiddo.
 
2014-05-07 09:23:58 AM
Should schools teach it?  Ehh, maybe, probably, sure, why not......If the district wants to and has the okay of the State, go for it.

Should it be "mandatory"?  No....
 
2014-05-07 09:33:19 AM
Isn't that what Boy/Girl Scouts are all about?
 
2014-05-07 10:03:31 AM
It was Phys Ed class in grade 10 when we took that.  They even had the dummies to learn on.

/Canada
 
2014-05-07 10:24:20 AM
Well, this thread has been very educational.
 
2014-05-07 10:25:56 AM

SilentStrider: Those people with the problems can go f*ck themselves.


Really even if the problem is asking who the hell is supposed to pay for all this extra training?

Its a valid question unless you think money poops out of tacos.
 
2014-05-07 10:28:12 AM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: hubiestubert: I keep getting my CPR training updated. It's important in the hospitality trade. Only had to use it once, and only had to use the Heimlich once--my daughter got very excited about having a hot dog, and popped the sucker up with one push, and told her to slow down, and she was young enough that if I didn't freak out, she didn't freak out--but the one time I had to CPR I was damn lucky it was with someone else to trade on compressions, because the ambulance took forever. And this was before the defibrillator kits were common. We felt the ribs, and we still weren't getting anything, so we kept going. The EMTs got there and took over, and we were glad to let them.

As for not paying for the skill set: maybe folks should think a bit on where those priorities are. Saving lives, or saving a football team's uniform laundry service?

I admire you as being a rational, intelligent, and erudite (if somewhat wordy at times) Farker

/but damn, dude... you know the answer to that question in a substantial part of the country


Also football games sell tickets which generates revenue for the school, so its not as if football is a giant money pit, and concessions at football games often generate revenue for other school clubs or booster groups.
 
2014-05-07 10:30:46 AM

The more you eat the more you fart: First time i was ever taught CPR, i was 9 years old.

Who taught me? The Boy Scouts of America.


good for you but not everyone can get into the boy scouts remember.
 
2014-05-07 10:34:02 AM

Mark Ratner: We had to learn it in 9th grade health class on a rubber mannequin named "Annie." But she had no arms and legs, so I guess it was basically just a torso with a female head and red hair. Of course, her mouth had to be sterilized with rubbing alcohol before each student could practice. Tasted and smelled nasty. Looking back, it seems so farked up.


Really? I would've assumed that she'd have been okay. Did you ask her?
 
2014-05-07 10:42:45 AM

onzmadi: The more you eat the more you fart: First time i was ever taught CPR, i was 9 years old.

Who taught me? The Boy Scouts of America.

good for you but not everyone can get into the boy scouts remember.


Yeah..unfortunately.
 
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