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(Chicago Trib)   New bill would require high schools to teach students how to perform CPR and use defibrillators. Naturally, some people have a problem with this   (chicagotribune.com) divider line 126
    More: Interesting, CPR, high schools, Illinois, George Laman, Illinois House, Elmhurst, St. Charles, American Heart Association  
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4048 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 May 2014 at 2:35 AM (33 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



126 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-05-07 12:31:51 AM  
Those people with the problems can go f*ck themselves.
 
2014-05-07 12:38:41 AM  
Teach them the statistics and what happens to a body that has CPR performed on it, then ask them if they want it done to them.
 
2014-05-07 01:00:48 AM  
I learned CPR in 6th grade.  learning basic first aid was mandatory. I learned how to do CPR, splint a broken limb, make a sling, all kinds of cool shiat.  Most of what I learned is way out of date now (I want to say it was 30 years ago?) but I knew it and there wasn't anything at all controversial about learning it.
 
2014-05-07 01:14:41 AM  

Ambivalence: I learned CPR in 6th grade.  learning basic first aid was mandatory. I learned how to do CPR, splint a broken limb, make a sling, all kinds of cool shiat.  Most of what I learned is way out of date now (I want to say it was 30 years ago?) but I knew it and there wasn't anything at all controversial about learning it.


The controversy doesn't appear to be about the learning. It's about paying for the learning.
 
2014-05-07 01:16:33 AM  

Ambivalence: Most of what I learned is way out of date now


Nope, You still stop bleeding the same way. CPR itself has changed because it's mostly useless, but they keep trying to figure out ways to make it work better. Now, it's all compressions, don't stop giving compressions.
We'll see what they do in another 10 years.
 
2014-05-07 01:24:57 AM  
A CPR course was mandatory when I was in high school. But that was like a decade and a half ago, back when the Earth was flat and people thought California was an island in the Pacific.
 
2014-05-07 01:27:12 AM  

Ambivalence: I learned CPR in 6th grade.  learning basic first aid was mandatory. I learned how to do CPR, splint a broken limb, make a sling, all kinds of cool shiat.  Most of what I learned is way out of date now (I want to say it was 30 years ago?) but I knew it and there wasn't anything at all controversial about learning it.



I was a firefighter with full advanced first aid and cpr credentials at 16

/it isn't an ability or responsibility issue
//it's a money and liability issue
 
2014-05-07 01:30:58 AM  

fusillade762: Ambivalence: I learned CPR in 6th grade.  learning basic first aid was mandatory. I learned how to do CPR, splint a broken limb, make a sling, all kinds of cool shiat.  Most of what I learned is way out of date now (I want to say it was 30 years ago?) but I knew it and there wasn't anything at all controversial about learning it.

The controversy doesn't appear to be about the learning. It's about paying for the learning.


I guess I don't understand why it's so hard to pay for something that should have already been an mandatory part of the curiculum.  First aid/CPR is a good skill to have.
 
2014-05-07 01:46:10 AM  
I keep getting my CPR training updated. It's important in the hospitality trade. Only had to use it once, and only had to use the Heimlich once--my daughter got very excited about having a hot dog, and popped the sucker up with one push, and told her to slow down, and she was young enough that if I didn't freak out, she didn't freak out--but the one time I had to CPR I was damn lucky it was with someone else to trade on compressions, because the ambulance took forever. And this was before the defibrillator kits were common. We felt the ribs, and we still weren't getting anything, so we kept going. The EMTs got there and took over, and we were glad to let them.

As for not paying for the skill set: maybe folks should think a bit on where those priorities are. Saving lives, or saving a football team's uniform laundry service?
 
2014-05-07 01:52:25 AM  

hubiestubert: I keep getting my CPR training updated. It's important in the hospitality trade. Only had to use it once, and only had to use the Heimlich once--my daughter got very excited about having a hot dog, and popped the sucker up with one push, and told her to slow down, and she was young enough that if I didn't freak out, she didn't freak out--but the one time I had to CPR I was damn lucky it was with someone else to trade on compressions, because the ambulance took forever. And this was before the defibrillator kits were common. We felt the ribs, and we still weren't getting anything, so we kept going. The EMTs got there and took over, and we were glad to let them.

As for not paying for the skill set: maybe folks should think a bit on where those priorities are. Saving lives, or saving a football team's uniform laundry service?


I admire you as being a rational, intelligent, and erudite (if somewhat wordy at times) Farker

/but damn, dude... you know the answer to that question in a substantial part of the country
 
2014-05-07 02:09:10 AM  

HotWingAgenda: A CPR course was mandatory when I was in high school. But that was like a decade and a half ago, back when the Earth was flat and people thought California was an island in the Pacific.


Yup. One entire quarter of my high school biology class was dedicated to CPR certification. My biology teacher was also an EMT at the time and is now a family practitioner.
 
2014-05-07 02:31:42 AM  
We had to learn it in 9th grade health class on a rubber mannequin named "Annie." But she had no arms and legs, so I guess it was basically just a torso with a female head and red hair. Of course, her mouth had to be sterilized with rubbing alcohol before each student could practice. Tasted and smelled nasty. Looking back, it seems so farked up.
 
2014-05-07 02:44:22 AM  
This may be how zombies begin....
 
2014-05-07 02:48:51 AM  
"Even small new costs are a big burden on schools that already don't receive the funding they need," said Zach Messersmith, a lobbyist for the Illinois Association of School Boards.

So make the damned football team do a few carwashes and tell the lacross players to hold a bake sale.
 
2014-05-07 02:51:48 AM  
This will save the lives of more Americans in one year than all the money pissed away on 'anti-terrorism efforts' to date.
 
2014-05-07 02:56:41 AM  

cretinbob: Teach them the statistics and what happens to a body that has CPR performed on it, then ask them if they want it done to them.


Most people would probably prefer to live temporarily with broken ribs than die
 
2014-05-07 03:00:45 AM  
The only people who have a problem with it are people who think any person under the age of 21 should never be allowed to do anything but then when they're 21, they're adults who are adults who should suddenly know how to do everything.
 
2014-05-07 03:01:11 AM  
They have to have the defibrillators in IL schools, and the instructions on them are simple enough a 4th grader could follow them (well, most 4th graders).

zarker: Most people would probably prefer to live temporarily with broken ribs than die


That's what the paramedics who ran my first CPR class said.

If you break ribs, just reposition your hands and keep doing CPR.  They should live long enough to worry about broken ribs.
 
2014-05-07 03:02:49 AM  
AFAIK cpr only has a 13% success rate, andbrings the risk if breakung some ribs. Personally, i'd prefer a 13% chance to live and a few broken ribs over being a cooling corpse waiting for an ambulance to arrive.

/please correct me if i have some of the facts wrong
 
2014-05-07 03:08:51 AM  

SilentStrider: Those people with the problems can go f*ck themselves.


done in one
 
2014-05-07 03:13:45 AM  
They don't have school nurses anymore?
 
2014-05-07 03:15:32 AM  

kling_klang_bed: They don't have school nurses anymore?


Generally, no, not in high school.
 
2014-05-07 03:21:26 AM  
A very good friend of mine, a top notch science teacher and a wonderful person, was walking down Telegraph Avenue one lovely afternoon when, next thing she knew, she woke up in an intensive care unit at a local hospital. She had a few broken ribs and no idea how she'd got there or what had happened.
She had gone into anaphylactic shock due to being stung by a bee and her heart had stopped. Someone had performed CPR on her until the EMTs arrived, saving her life. She never found out who the person was who had saved her.
It's mighty dusty every time I think of that person saving my friend's life. There are, literally, hundreds of students whose lives she has changed (for the better) and who are thankful that she was saved. She is one of those teachers that people name when asked "Did you ever have a favorite teacher? Someone who inspired you?"
Find the money. Save a life.
 
2014-05-07 03:23:27 AM  

zarker: kling_klang_bed: They don't have school nurses anymore?

Generally, no, not in high school.


They went along with librarians and counselors

/is our kids learning to be adults?
 
2014-05-07 03:26:52 AM  

cretinbob: Ambivalence: Most of what I learned is way out of date now

Nope, You still stop bleeding the same way. CPR itself has changed because it's mostly useless, but they keep trying to figure out ways to make it work better. Now, it's all compressions, don't stop giving compressions.
We'll see what they do in another 10 years.


Incorrect. It is 30 to 2.
 
2014-05-07 03:32:49 AM  

Dance Party: They have to have the defibrillators in IL schools, and the instructions on them are simple enough a 4th grader could follow them (well, most 4th graders).

zarker: Most people would probably prefer to live temporarily with broken ribs than die

That's what the paramedics who ran my first CPR class said.

If you break ribs, just reposition your hands and keep doing CPR.  They should live long enough to worry about broken ribs.


I work in an ER where we sometimes (okay..often) perform cpr.

Here's a dirty little secret: we INTENTIONALLY break ribs when doing cpr. The first person who initiates compressions...on the first compression will JAM down your sternum. Why? Because the suporting cartillage (you arent really breaking bone...you are separating cartillage from the sternum) prevents effevtive chest compressions.

We are trying to save your life. We need to keep blood circulating, and that means getting a good squeeze on your heart.
 
2014-05-07 03:33:39 AM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: They went along with librarians and counselors


I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that librarians are going to be insanely important in the near future.
Not that they aren't already important; I mean an order of magnitude more important. As in, "I'm going into library science" will be like declaring a major in medicine, only you have to be way smarter.
 
2014-05-07 03:34:31 AM  
Sorry for the typos...touch screen phone keyboards arent the best.
 
2014-05-07 03:34:33 AM  

Hermione_Granger: The only people who have a problem with it are people who think any person under the age of 21 should never be allowed to do anything but then when they're 21, they're adults who are adults who should suddenly know how to do everything.


That and the hordes of narcissistic wankstains who can't abide the idea of government spending for anything, no matter how inexpensive or vital, that does not benefit them clearly and directly.
 
2014-05-07 03:37:14 AM  
First time i was ever taught CPR, i was 9 years old.

Who taught me? The Boy Scouts of America.
 
2014-05-07 03:39:11 AM  

red5ish: MaudlinMutantMollusk: They went along with librarians and counselors

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that librarians are going to be insanely important in the near future.
Not that they aren't already important; I mean an order of magnitude more important. As in, "I'm going into library science" will be like declaring a major in medicine, only you have to be way smarter.


Heh... yeah, I know. I was actually part of initiating that decline locally, in fact

/librarian is a job that needed to morph into another form
//more of a internet/research facilitator
///one with superior google-fu skills, if you will
 
2014-05-07 03:43:22 AM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: Ambivalence: I learned CPR in 6th grade.  learning basic first aid was mandatory. I learned how to do CPR, splint a broken limb, make a sling, all kinds of cool shiat.  Most of what I learned is way out of date now (I want to say it was 30 years ago?) but I knew it and there wasn't anything at all controversial about learning it.


I was a firefighter with full advanced first aid and cpr credentials at 16

/it isn't an ability or responsibility issue
//it's a money and liability issue


Liability?

Most states have a "good samaritin law" that says you cannot be sued for taking prudent action.

This law covers breaking ribs while doing cpr.

At least it does in my state...
 
2014-05-07 03:49:24 AM  

Smoking GNU: AFAIK cpr only has a 13% success rate, andbrings the risk if breakung some ribs. Personally, i'd prefer a 13% chance to live and a few broken ribs over being a cooling corpse waiting for an ambulance to arrive.

/please correct me if i have some of the facts wrong


In my personal extensive experience, i'd say cpr alone has about a 20% success rate in actually restoring autonomic pulse and respirations.

It is much higher if you include keeping them alive and/or preventing brain death long enough for more advanced life support such as epi injections and intubation ventilation support to arrive or be administered. If you include this, i'd put it closer to 40%.
 
2014-05-07 03:52:58 AM  

The more you eat the more you fart: MaudlinMutantMollusk: Ambivalence: I learned CPR in 6th grade.  learning basic first aid was mandatory. I learned how to do CPR, splint a broken limb, make a sling, all kinds of cool shiat.  Most of what I learned is way out of date now (I want to say it was 30 years ago?) but I knew it and there wasn't anything at all controversial about learning it.


I was a firefighter with full advanced first aid and cpr credentials at 16

/it isn't an ability or responsibility issue
//it's a money and liability issue

Liability?

Most states have a "good samaritin law" that says you cannot be sued for taking prudent action.

This law covers breaking ribs while doing cpr.

At least it does in my state...


That may be so. I don't claim a 6th grade certificate in law, and it's been a long time since it was a subject I followed with any interest. Not that I'd care or hesitate if I needed to use my rusty skills

/may you live to sue my incompetent ass
 
2014-05-07 03:57:31 AM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: The more you eat the more you fart: MaudlinMutantMollusk: Ambivalence: I learned CPR in 6th grade.  learning basic first aid was mandatory. I learned how to do CPR, splint a broken limb, make a sling, all kinds of cool shiat.  Most of what I learned is way out of date now (I want to say it was 30 years ago?) but I knew it and there wasn't anything at all controversial about learning it.


I was a firefighter with full advanced first aid and cpr credentials at 16

/it isn't an ability or responsibility issue
//it's a money and liability issue

Liability?

Most states have a "good samaritin law" that says you cannot be sued for taking prudent action.

This law covers breaking ribs while doing cpr.

At least it does in my state...

That may be so. I don't claim a 6th grade certificate in law, and it's been a long time since it was a subject I followed with any interest. Not that I'd care or hesitate if I needed to use my rusty skills

/may you live to sue my incompetent ass


And anyone who tried to sue you for that is a douche...and i think they would be hard-pressed to find a judge that would rule against you.
 
2014-05-07 04:04:04 AM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: /librarian is a job that needed to morph into another form
//more of a internet/research facilitator
///one with superior google-fu skills, if you will


I believe it will involve a lot more than Google-fu. It will be more along the lines of shaping the internet and bringing order out of chaos. I'm talking about major players, not helpers. Your average (which means hugely superior) research librarian can already run circles around Google search algorithms.

Library science is going to be crucial in this age of information. Very smart people are already there.
 
2014-05-07 04:10:39 AM  

Ambivalence: fusillade762: Ambivalence: I learned CPR in 6th grade.  learning basic first aid was mandatory. I learned how to do CPR, splint a broken limb, make a sling, all kinds of cool shiat.  Most of what I learned is way out of date now (I want to say it was 30 years ago?) but I knew it and there wasn't anything at all controversial about learning it.

The controversy doesn't appear to be about the learning. It's about paying for the learning.

I guess I don't understand why it's so hard to pay for something that should have already been an mandatory part of the curiculum.  First aid/CPR is a good skill to have.


Maybe because asshats are trying to defund public education.  Just a guess.
 
2014-05-07 04:12:14 AM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: /may you live to sue my incompetent ass


Good for you. Do what's right. I will back you up 100%.
 
2014-05-07 04:54:32 AM  
I was certified for CPR 3 times in high school, in the 80s.

I was re-certified at work a few months ago, so they'd have someone on site that knows it, and I work alone 3rd shift.  Defibrillators were mentioned, as the new ones talk the user through what to do.
 
2014-05-07 05:06:24 AM  
I just got my CPR certification renewed, and they finally added AED (those automatic defibs things) to it.  It was kind of neat.  You open it up, and it starts talking to you, telling you exactly how to use it.
 
2014-05-07 05:20:24 AM  
Americans want everything, but are willing to actually pay for almost nothing.
 
2014-05-07 05:30:32 AM  
If we taught them prayer, we wouldn't need to teach "scientific" things like CPR. God cares for His obedient children.
 
2014-05-07 05:54:54 AM  
We have people wanting to actually give guns to kids, but teaching them how to save lives? That's crazy talk.
 
2014-05-07 05:55:41 AM  

cretinbob: Ambivalence: Most of what I learned is way out of date now

Nope, You still stop bleeding the same way. CPR itself has changed because it's mostly useless, but they keep trying to figure out ways to make it work better. Now, it's all compressions, don't stop giving compressions.
We'll see what they do in another 10 years.


I was taught CPR in high school two years ago. They told me to do a ratio of 30:2. 30 chest compressions to two breaths.
 
2014-05-07 06:07:26 AM  

Richard C Stanford: cretinbob: Ambivalence: Most of what I learned is way out of date now

Nope, You still stop bleeding the same way. CPR itself has changed because it's mostly useless, but they keep trying to figure out ways to make it work better. Now, it's all compressions, don't stop giving compressions.
We'll see what they do in another 10 years.

I was taught CPR in high school two years ago. They told me to do a ratio of 30:2. 30 chest compressions to two breaths.


Thats because he's wrong.

It *IS* 30:2.

Source: i do cpr on an average of 3 people a week as an ER nurse.
 
2014-05-07 06:12:43 AM  
The more you eat the more you fart:

Incorrect. It is 30 to 2.

Here's a dirty little secret: we INTENTIONALLY break ribs when doing cpr.

Most states have a "good samaritin law" that says you cannot be sued for taking prudent action.

This law covers breaking ribs while doing cpr.



Two things are clear:
1. You are talking out of your ass.
2. While doing said talking you are demonstrating that you don't know a damned thing about healthcare, Emergency Medicine, or current CPR recommendations.

IF you actually work in an ER, I wouldn't want to be a patient there. Of course, you probably don't get any closer to patients than the end of your mop handle.
 
2014-05-07 06:21:52 AM  

UseLessHuman: Americans want everything, but are willing to actually pay for almost nothing.


other than the fact that our education spending is higher than every other country on both a real and percentage of GNP basis, this statement is totally accurate.  And for healthcare, the US spends about  2x the next highest country.
 
2014-05-07 06:39:33 AM  
We had the fire department come in and train us how to do CPR as part of our 10th grade health class, and that was in "not going to spend a dime on education" Alabama.  We also got our boaters licenses as part of our driver's ed classes the same year.  In both instances, the teacher of the class did all the legwork her/him self and just incorporated the material into the class (and I'm pretty sure both were free of charge for the class). Sometimes all it takes for you as a student to be able to do cool things in school is to have a teacher that is willing to spend a little time to make it happen.
 
2014-05-07 06:43:12 AM  

cretinbob: Teach them the statistics and what happens to a body that has CPR performed on it, then ask them if they want it done to them.


20-30% Survival to discharge rate with properly performed prearrival CPR and AED use in adult patients who arrest from a cardiac cause, versus a 100% chance of death.

Sounds good to me.

love-m'-beer: 1. You are talking out of your ass.


What are you talking about. The Ratio IS 30:2 if you are a healthcare provider in an adult patient, and you WILL break ribs in everyone except for the very young. In fact, if you DON'T break a rib in an elderly patient, you're not doing it right.

The only times compressions are done continuously are if A) You have a mechanical CPR device in place, such as AutoPulse or Lucas-II, or B) You have a secure airway in place, such as a King LT-D, LMA, or preferably an Endotracheal tube. The 2010 guidelines also state that intubation is a secondary consideration after IV access is established and should not interrupt the 30:2 cycle.

cretinbob: Nope, You still stop bleeding the same way. CPR itself has changed because it's mostly useless, but they keep trying to figure out ways to make it work better. Now, it's all compressions, don't stop giving compressions.
We'll see what they do in another 10 years.


It's not all compressions, unless you're a layperson who witnesses an adult arrest from a primarily cardiac cause - the ONLY time hands-only CPR is indicated before the arrival of EMS resources. Outside of an MI-induced or arrhythmia-induced cardiac arrest, CPR becomes far more complex as it focuses on buying time to reverse the causes.

And it's not another 10 years. BLS, PALS, and ACLS are both due for revisions next year. Due to the recent research into passive ventilation during compressions and reduction of intrathoracic pressure to improve bloodflow, you're going to see CPR adjuncts taking more and more of a place in resuscitation.
 
2014-05-07 06:45:05 AM  

Richard C Stanford: cretinbob: Ambivalence: Most of what I learned is way out of date now

Nope, You still stop bleeding the same way. CPR itself has changed because it's mostly useless, but they keep trying to figure out ways to make it work better. Now, it's all compressions, don't stop giving compressions.
We'll see what they do in another 10 years.

I was taught CPR in high school two years ago. They told me to do a ratio of 30:2. 30 chest compressions to two breaths.


The 2010 standard was 30 and 2. There may be more up-to-date ones, which is why CPR is an annual qualification.
 
2014-05-07 06:50:05 AM  
By the way, CPR does save lives (Warning: Actual cardiac arrest and working code with save)

agent00pi: The 2010 standard was 30 and 2. There may be more up-to-date ones, which is why CPR is an annual qualification.


2015 will be the next standard for Neonatal Resuscitation, BLS and Heartsaver, ACLS and PALS, and 2016 is when ACLS for Experienced Providers will get revised. They revise every five years because of new evidence, and they recommend recert every two years because most people will not use resuscitation skills every day - or even every year, and the evidence has shown that even healthcare providers get rusty if they do not use the skills.
 
2014-05-07 06:50:17 AM  

Smoking GNU: AFAIK cpr only has a 13% success rate, andbrings the risk if breakung some ribs. Personally, i'd prefer a 13% chance to live and a few broken ribs over being a cooling corpse waiting for an ambulance to arrive.

/please correct me if i have some of the facts wrong


Just had my CPR refresher two weeks ago - card was sitting in my inbox at work yesterday.

You're right, with one caveat - the 10% success rate is for CPR alone. That jumps to 30%-40% if you have an AED on hand, charged and ready to go. And AEDs are getting cheap enough that almost everywhere has them, and they're simple enough they're pretty much idiot proof (although it is a bit weird when you open one up for the first time and it starts yelling commands at you).

So if you gotta do it, hope like hell that there is an AED nearby.

The more you eat the more you fart: Incorrect. It is 30 to 2.


Bob is correct that the national guidelines are moving away from giving rescue breaths. We were told that under the new guidelines, they are optional, and if you don't have a face shield, then don't worry about them at all. Seems weird, but apparently the stats show that 100bpm chest compressions are way more important than the breaths, which don't do all that much to help.

red5ish: MaudlinMutantMollusk: /librarian is a job that needed to morph into another form
//more of a internet/research facilitator
///one with superior google-fu skills, if you will

I believe it will involve a lot more than Google-fu. It will be more along the lines of shaping the internet and bringing order out of chaos. I'm talking about major players, not helpers. Your average (which means hugely superior) research librarian can already run circles around Google search algorithms.

Library science is going to be crucial in this age of information. Very smart people are already there.


My experience in grad school was that the LS & IS people are some of the best people on the planet. Young, smart, and they will freely admit that they don't know everything, but I'll be damned if they don't know where to find it or about it. These are people that literally go through their day hoping to have a chance to show off their skills at trolling the depths of human knowledge for specific facts.

So protip: if you ever go to grad school, make friends with the graduate LS students. Most of them work in the campus libraries anyways, and stay perpetually bored because undergrads would rather google something than ask a librarian. Being friends will them will make your graduate school experience vastly easier in the long run.
 
2014-05-07 07:00:23 AM  

Elegy: We were told that under the new guidelines, they are optional, and if you don't have a face shield, then don't worry about them at all. Seems weird, but apparently the stats show that 100bpm chest compressions are way more important than the breaths, which don't do all that much to help.


It's a little bit more complex than that. Hands-only CPR is recommended for two reasons:

1) Like you said, it's easier to get someone to pump on someone's chest than it is to get someone to rescue breathe for someone.
2) In a sudden cardiac arrest caused by a primarily cardiac cause (i.e. a heart attack, heart arrhythmia), the blood arterial oxygen content and residual tidal volume in the lungs is enough to support that person's decreased metabolic and perfusion status for several minutes initially, in addition to passive ventilation that occurs when someone is performing chest compressions. In these cases, the problem is not one of low oxygenation, it's of perfusion to the coronary arteries and myocardium, and restoring perfusion to buy time until defibrillation.

Witnessed, sudden cardiac arrest in an adult that is not of a complex medical or respiratory cause is the  only reason to perform hands-only CPR. In every other population,  especially kids and infants, respiratory management is of the utmost importance, because the arrest is compounded by both hypoxia and hypercarbia (CO2 retention), which leads to acidosis. Hearts don't beat in an acidotic body, even if you pump on them.
 
2014-05-07 07:04:54 AM  

zarker: kling_klang_bed: They don't have school nurses anymore?

Generally, no, not in high school.


Then who holds all the EpiPens and OTC medicine that the students can't carry around?
 
2014-05-07 07:07:34 AM  

OtherLittleGuy: Then who holds all the EpiPens and OTC medicine that the students can't carry around?


Usually the secretary at the office if they don't have an on-site school nurse. Most schools now don't keep OTC medicine unless it's prescribed to the child, because of the liability of giving medication to children without parental permission.
 
2014-05-07 07:09:05 AM  
I'd prefer they teach students how to drive and pay their taxes. I've been out of school a long time and never needed to use CPR.
 
2014-05-07 07:16:33 AM  

OtherLittleGuy: zarker: kling_klang_bed: They don't have school nurses anymore?

Generally, no, not in high school.

Then who holds all the EpiPens and OTC medicine that the students can't carry around?


What? Uh, in my high school those things were allowed. Even after a big to-do when a bunch of kids got stuck with one of those diabetic finger prickers (it eventually even got a hook on the tip, and it got stuck on my hand. We all knew each other and by some degree had shared bodily fluids anyway, someone outside the group reported it. Cops called, blood tests taken, clean results, no malice, blah blah blah)
I even shared zyrtec with some kids in front of teachers. Teachers were even allowed to offer cough drops! Oh the anarchy
 
2014-05-07 07:18:38 AM  
Defibs don't restart hearts that have stopped beating.  This needs to be taught.
 
2014-05-07 07:20:45 AM  

zarker: OtherLittleGuy: zarker: kling_klang_bed: They don't have school nurses anymore?

Generally, no, not in high school.

Then who holds all the EpiPens and OTC medicine that the students can't carry around?

What? Uh, in my high school those things were allowed. Even after a big to-do when a bunch of kids got stuck with one of those diabetic finger prickers (it eventually even got a hook on the tip, and it got stuck on my hand. We all knew each other and by some degree had shared bodily fluids anyway, someone outside the group reported it. Cops called, blood tests taken, clean results, no malice, blah blah blah)
I even shared zyrtec with some kids in front of teachers. Teachers were even allowed to offer cough drops! Oh the anarchy


Back when I was in school, aspirin and Tylenol were not allowed.  If you had a headache, you could go to the nurse's office to lie down in a darkened room for the rest of the hour.
 
2014-05-07 07:25:10 AM  

love-m'-beer: The more you eat the more you fart:

Incorrect. It is 30 to 2.

Here's a dirty little secret: we INTENTIONALLY break ribs when doing cpr.

Most states have a "good samaritin law" that says you cannot be sued for taking prudent action.

This law covers breaking ribs while doing cpr.


Two things are clear:
1. You are talking out of your ass.
2. While doing said talking you are demonstrating that you don't know a damned thing about healthcare, Emergency Medicine, or current CPR recommendations.

IF you actually work in an ER, I wouldn't want to be a patient there. Of course, you probably don't get any closer to patients than the end of your mop handle.


Two things:

You obviously dont know what you are talking about bc in bls certification, they TELL you to "push hard on the first compression".

2. Ibe been in healthcare long enough to know an armchair quarterback when i see one.

Go back to reading webMD.
 
2014-05-07 07:29:01 AM  
FTA:  "Even small new costs are a big burden on schools that already don't receive the funding they need," said Zach Messersmith, a lobbyist for the Illinois Association of School Boards.

Hmm...if only there was a useless parasite whose salary we could cut to get the kids CPR training...
 
2014-05-07 07:29:12 AM  

hardinparamedic: Elegy: We were told that under the new guidelines, they are optional, and if you don't have a face shield, then don't worry about them at all. Seems weird, but apparently the stats show that 100bpm chest compressions are way more important than the breaths, which don't do all that much to help.

It's a little bit more complex than that. Hands-only CPR is recommended for two reasons:

1) Like you said, it's easier to get someone to pump on someone's chest than it is to get someone to rescue breathe for someone.
2) In a sudden cardiac arrest caused by a primarily cardiac cause (i.e. a heart attack, heart arrhythmia), the blood arterial oxygen content and residual tidal volume in the lungs is enough to support that person's decreased metabolic and perfusion status for several minutes initially, in addition to passive ventilation that occurs when someone is performing chest compressions. In these cases, the problem is not one of low oxygenation, it's of perfusion to the coronary arteries and myocardium, and restoring perfusion to buy time until defibrillation.

Witnessed, sudden cardiac arrest in an adult that is not of a complex medical or respiratory cause is the  only reason to perform hands-only CPR. In every other population,  especially kids and infants, respiratory management is of the utmost importance, because the arrest is compounded by both hypoxia and hypercarbia (CO2 retention), which leads to acidosis. Hearts don't beat in an acidotic body, even if you pump on them.


Hardin is correct..even tho he and i often do not get along.

Doing adequate compressions will inflate/deflate the lungs unless there is a blockage.

100bpm is recommended...you can watch the ECG to see if you are doing them correctly.
 
2014-05-07 07:32:00 AM  

love-m'-beer: The more you eat the more you fart:

Incorrect. It is 30 to 2.

Here's a dirty little secret: we INTENTIONALLY break ribs when doing cpr.

Most states have a "good samaritin law" that says you cannot be sued for taking prudent action.

This law covers breaking ribs while doing cpr.


Two things are clear:
1. You are talking out of your ass.
2. While doing said talking you are demonstrating that you don't know a damned thing about healthcare, Emergency Medicine, or current CPR recommendations.

IF you actually work in an ER, I wouldn't want to be a patient there. Of course, you probably don't get any closer to patients than the end of your mop handle.


Nice try douchenozzle.

Im still correct, and you are still a douche..who is also wrong.
 
2014-05-07 07:32:34 AM  

Elegy: Smoking GNU: AFAIK cpr only has a 13% success rate, andbrings the risk if breakung some ribs. Personally, i'd prefer a 13% chance to live and a few broken ribs over being a cooling corpse waiting for an ambulance to arrive.

/please correct me if i have some of the facts wrong

Just had my CPR refresher two weeks ago - card was sitting in my inbox at work yesterday.

You're right, with one caveat - the 10% success rate is for CPR alone. That jumps to 30%-40% if you have an AED on hand, charged and ready to go. And AEDs are getting cheap enough that almost everywhere has them, and they're simple enough they're pretty much idiot proof (although it is a bit weird when you open one up for the first time and it starts yelling commands at you).

So if you gotta do it, hope like hell that there is an AED nearby.

The more you eat the more you fart: Incorrect. It is 30 to 2.

Bob is correct that the national guidelines are moving away from giving rescue breaths. We were told that under the new guidelines, they are optional, and if you don't have a face shield, then don't worry about them at all. Seems weird, but apparently the stats show that 100bpm chest compressions are way more important than the breaths, which don't do all that much to help.


I'd imagine the compressions themselves get a little air into the lungs, at least.

Can us ordinary civilian slobs buy AEDs?  Should we keep one in the car?  how often do they need to be charged?

/was an Army medic
//skills are WAY out of date
 
2014-05-07 07:38:28 AM  

PunGent: Elegy: Smoking GNU: AFAIK cpr only has a 13% success rate, andbrings the risk if breakung some ribs. Personally, i'd prefer a 13% chance to live and a few broken ribs over being a cooling corpse waiting for an ambulance to arrive.

/please correct me if i have some of the facts wrong

Just had my CPR refresher two weeks ago - card was sitting in my inbox at work yesterday.

You're right, with one caveat - the 10% success rate is for CPR alone. That jumps to 30%-40% if you have an AED on hand, charged and ready to go. And AEDs are getting cheap enough that almost everywhere has them, and they're simple enough they're pretty much idiot proof (although it is a bit weird when you open one up for the first time and it starts yelling commands at you).

So if you gotta do it, hope like hell that there is an AED nearby.

The more you eat the more you fart: Incorrect. It is 30 to 2.

Bob is correct that the national guidelines are moving away from giving rescue breaths. We were told that under the new guidelines, they are optional, and if you don't have a face shield, then don't worry about them at all. Seems weird, but apparently the stats show that 100bpm chest compressions are way more important than the breaths, which don't do all that much to help.

I'd imagine the compressions themselves get a little air into the lungs, at least.

Can us ordinary civilian slobs buy AEDs?  Should we keep one in the car?  how often do they need to be charged?

/was an Army medic
//skills are WAY out of date


In order: yes. Some pasdive ventillation occurs during proper cpr. Keyword: proper. But its still nothing like getting them intubated and bagged.


Second: yes. You can buy aed's for home use. Most are in the $150-$250 range.
 
2014-05-07 07:45:11 AM  

The more you eat the more you fart: love-m'-beer: The more you eat the more you fart:

Incorrect. It is 30 to 2.

Here's a dirty little secret: we INTENTIONALLY break ribs when doing cpr.

Most states have a "good samaritin law" that says you cannot be sued for taking prudent action.

This law covers breaking ribs while doing cpr.


Two things are clear:
1. You are talking out of your ass.
2. While doing said talking you are demonstrating that you don't know a damned thing about healthcare, Emergency Medicine, or current CPR recommendations.

IF you actually work in an ER, I wouldn't want to be a patient there. Of course, you probably don't get any closer to patients than the end of your mop handle.

Nice try douchenozzle.

Im still correct, and you are still a douche..who is also wrong.


Let's just all agree that a fark party would be the worst place to end up in need of CPR
In an emergency room, it's unlikely only one nurse would be involved in the CPR
 
2014-05-07 07:54:38 AM  

hardinparamedic: Elegy: We were told that under the new guidelines, they are optional, and if you don't have a face shield, then don't worry about them at all. Seems weird, but apparently the stats show that 100bpm chest compressions are way more important than the breaths, which don't do all that much to help.

It's a little bit more complex than that. Hands-only CPR is recommended for two reasons:

1) Like you said, it's easier to get someone to pump on someone's chest than it is to get someone to rescue breathe for someone.
2) In a sudden cardiac arrest caused by a primarily cardiac cause (i.e. a heart attack, heart arrhythmia), the blood arterial oxygen content and residual tidal volume in the lungs is enough to support that person's decreased metabolic and perfusion status for several minutes initially, in addition to passive ventilation that occurs when someone is performing chest compressions. In these cases, the problem is not one of low oxygenation, it's of perfusion to the coronary arteries and myocardium, and restoring perfusion to buy time until defibrillation.

Witnessed, sudden cardiac arrest in an adult that is not of a complex medical or respiratory cause is the  only reason to perform hands-only CPR. In every other population,  especially kids and infants, respiratory management is of the utmost importance, because the arrest is compounded by both hypoxia and hypercarbia (CO2 retention), which leads to acidosis. Hearts don't beat in an acidotic body, even if you pump on them.


You're the professional, so you definitely know better. I'm just relating what the CPR man said since it was fresh in my mind.

I'm not squeamish, so I'll be doing rescue breaths regardless. Free kisses!

Second: yes. You can buy aed's for home use. Most are in the $150-$250 range.

That sounds a biatcheap. CPR trainer quoted $400-600 for a refurb, but a quick google didn't reveal anything under $1000. Don't really have time right now to search for a great deal on an AED though
 
2014-05-07 07:54:56 AM  

zarker: The more you eat the more you fart: love-m'-beer: The more you eat the more you fart:

Incorrect. It is 30 to 2.

Here's a dirty little secret: we INTENTIONALLY break ribs when doing cpr.

Most states have a "good samaritin law" that says you cannot be sued for taking prudent action.

This law covers breaking ribs while doing cpr.


Two things are clear:
1. You are talking out of your ass.
2. While doing said talking you are demonstrating that you don't know a damned thing about healthcare, Emergency Medicine, or current CPR recommendations.

IF you actually work in an ER, I wouldn't want to be a patient there. Of course, you probably don't get any closer to patients than the end of your mop handle.

Nice try douchenozzle.

Im still correct, and you are still a douche..who is also wrong.

Let's just all agree that a fark party would be the worst place to end up in need of CPR
In an emergency room, it's unlikely only one nurse would be involved in the CPR


Ever worked in one?

I have. Lots. In fact...for 14 years.

There are plenty of times one nurse is doing cpr...while everone else is trying to start iv's or hook them uo to ecg's and draw meds, etc.
 
2014-05-07 07:56:03 AM  

Elegy: hardinparamedic: Elegy: We were told that under the new guidelines, they are optional, and if you don't have a face shield, then don't worry about them at all. Seems weird, but apparently the stats show that 100bpm chest compressions are way more important than the breaths, which don't do all that much to help.

It's a little bit more complex than that. Hands-only CPR is recommended for two reasons:

1) Like you said, it's easier to get someone to pump on someone's chest than it is to get someone to rescue breathe for someone.
2) In a sudden cardiac arrest caused by a primarily cardiac cause (i.e. a heart attack, heart arrhythmia), the blood arterial oxygen content and residual tidal volume in the lungs is enough to support that person's decreased metabolic and perfusion status for several minutes initially, in addition to passive ventilation that occurs when someone is performing chest compressions. In these cases, the problem is not one of low oxygenation, it's of perfusion to the coronary arteries and myocardium, and restoring perfusion to buy time until defibrillation.

Witnessed, sudden cardiac arrest in an adult that is not of a complex medical or respiratory cause is the  only reason to perform hands-only CPR. In every other population,  especially kids and infants, respiratory management is of the utmost importance, because the arrest is compounded by both hypoxia and hypercarbia (CO2 retention), which leads to acidosis. Hearts don't beat in an acidotic body, even if you pump on them.

You're the professional, so you definitely know better. I'm just relating what the CPR man said since it was fresh in my mind.

I'm not squeamish, so I'll be doing rescue breaths regardless. Free kisses!

Second: yes. You can buy aed's for home use. Most are in the $150-$250 range.

That sounds a biatcheap. CPR trainer quoted $400-600 for a refurb, but a quick google didn't reveal anything under $1000. Don't really have time right now to search for a great deal on an AED though


Check amazon. Lol

I saw a few for $250
 
2014-05-07 07:56:26 AM  

The more you eat the more you fart: PunGent: Elegy: Smoking GNU: AFAIK cpr only has a 13% success rate, andbrings the risk if breakung some ribs. Personally, i'd prefer a 13% chance to live and a few broken ribs over being a cooling corpse waiting for an ambulance to arrive.

/please correct me if i have some of the facts wrong

Just had my CPR refresher two weeks ago - card was sitting in my inbox at work yesterday.

You're right, with one caveat - the 10% success rate is for CPR alone. That jumps to 30%-40% if you have an AED on hand, charged and ready to go. And AEDs are getting cheap enough that almost everywhere has them, and they're simple enough they're pretty much idiot proof (although it is a bit weird when you open one up for the first time and it starts yelling commands at you).

So if you gotta do it, hope like hell that there is an AED nearby.

The more you eat the more you fart: Incorrect. It is 30 to 2.

Bob is correct that the national guidelines are moving away from giving rescue breaths. We were told that under the new guidelines, they are optional, and if you don't have a face shield, then don't worry about them at all. Seems weird, but apparently the stats show that 100bpm chest compressions are way more important than the breaths, which don't do all that much to help.

I'd imagine the compressions themselves get a little air into the lungs, at least.

Can us ordinary civilian slobs buy AEDs?  Should we keep one in the car?  how often do they need to be charged?

/was an Army medic
//skills are WAY out of date

In order: yes. Some pasdive ventillation occurs during proper cpr. Keyword: proper. But its still nothing like getting them intubated and bagged.


Second: yes. You can buy aed's for home use. Most are in the $150-$250 range.


I understand the need for intubation, and I'm not going to try to be an EMT, don't worry :)

Any particular brands of AEDs to buy/avoid, to your knowledge?  How long do the batteries last?
 
2014-05-07 08:03:42 AM  

The more you eat the more you fart: zarker: The more you eat the more you fart: love-m'-beer: The more you eat the more you fart:

Incorrect. It is 30 to 2.

Here's a dirty little secret: we INTENTIONALLY break ribs when doing cpr.

Most states have a "good samaritin law" that says you cannot be sued for taking prudent action.

This law covers breaking ribs while doing cpr.


Two things are clear:
1. You are talking out of your ass.
2. While doing said talking you are demonstrating that you don't know a damned thing about healthcare, Emergency Medicine, or current CPR recommendations.

IF you actually work in an ER, I wouldn't want to be a patient there. Of course, you probably don't get any closer to patients than the end of your mop handle.

Nice try douchenozzle.

Im still correct, and you are still a douche..who is also wrong.

Let's just all agree that a fark party would be the worst place to end up in need of CPR
In an emergency room, it's unlikely only one nurse would be involved in the CPR

Ever worked in one?

I have. Lots. In fact...for 14 years.

There are plenty of times one nurse is doing cpr...while everone else is trying to start iv's or hook them uo to ecg's and draw meds, etc.


I just meant if for some reason the cpr wasn't going how cpr is supposed to go (your nurse cred was questioned) that there would likely be someone nearby to help or take over
 
2014-05-07 08:06:05 AM  
Amazon $250

Hmm, I went and looked, and most of the stuff in the $250 range is either the case only, or trainers.

PunGent: Any particular brands of AEDs to buy/avoid, to your knowledge?  How long do the batteries last?

My quick tour of google and Amazon reveals something to watch out for: be careful you aren't getting a trainer, especially if you buy off eBay or something. Trainers run off AA's and don't deliver any juice to the pads.

Batteries are lithium packs and good for 1-3 years, I believe. You should check em monthly, but they usually don't need to topped off or anything - they'll hold a charge for a good long time.

Or at least, that's the maintenance schedule for the AEDs in our fleet vehicles. I'm not a medical professional, and the extent of my AED training has been slapping some practice pads on a CPR dummy.
 
2014-05-07 08:15:01 AM  

cretinbob: Teach them the statistics and what happens to a body that has CPR performed on it, then ask them if they want it done to them.


Young people do considerably better than the general population in CPR / Defib events.  I agree with you when dealing with the elderly or already gravely ill, but young people with sudden death are a good risk group to attempt to resuscitate.
 
2014-05-07 08:17:35 AM  

Elegy: Amazon $250

Hmm, I went and looked, and most of the stuff in the $250 range is either the case only, or trainers.

PunGent: Any particular brands of AEDs to buy/avoid, to your knowledge?  How long do the batteries last?

My quick tour of google and Amazon reveals something to watch out for: be careful you aren't getting a trainer, especially if you buy off eBay or something. Trainers run off AA's and don't deliver any juice to the pads.

Batteries are lithium packs and good for 1-3 years, I believe. You should check em monthly, but they usually don't need to topped off or anything - they'll hold a charge for a good long time.

Or at least, that's the maintenance schedule for the AEDs in our fleet vehicles. I'm not a medical professional, and the extent of my AED training has been slapping some practice pads on a CPR dummy.


This.
 
2014-05-07 08:18:03 AM  
I suspect that most Americans, let alone HS students, couldn't maintain CPR compressions long enough to make a difference.
 
2014-05-07 08:18:20 AM  

Sgt Otter: I just got my CPR certification renewed, and they finally added AED (those automatic defibs things) to it. It was kind of neat. You open it up, and it starts talking to you, telling you exactly how to use it.


They're pretty awesome.  We had one actually used at the ski resort where I work.  The guy using it was a qualified first responder, but it was simple, and everyone from the ambulance crew to the attending physician agree that it saved that guys life.

Jokes aside about the "RonCo Pocked Defibs", those things are pretty great.
 
2014-05-07 08:25:00 AM  

wildcardjack: I suspect that most Americans, let alone HS students, couldn't maintain CPR compressions long enough to make a difference.


Adrenaline is a hell of a drug. In the situation mentioned in the article, where she just kind of sat down, most people probably wouldn't be very determined in their efforts. But if someone does the clutch and fall thing, it might just cause enough of a reaction for someone who has been trained to fly into action
 
2014-05-07 08:25:59 AM  

wildcardjack: I suspect that most Americans, let alone HS students, couldn't maintain CPR compressions long enough to make a difference.


I do it all the time, and it's rare for anyone to be able to keep up CPR for longer than 15 or 20 minutes
 
2014-05-07 08:26:18 AM  

The more you eat the more you fart: PunGent: Elegy: Smoking GNU: AFAIK cpr only has a 13% success rate, andbrings the risk if breakung some ribs. Personally, i'd prefer a 13% chance to live and a few broken ribs over being a cooling corpse waiting for an ambulance to arrive.

/please correct me if i have some of the facts wrong

Just had my CPR refresher two weeks ago - card was sitting in my inbox at work yesterday.

You're right, with one caveat - the 10% success rate is for CPR alone. That jumps to 30%-40% if you have an AED on hand, charged and ready to go. And AEDs are getting cheap enough that almost everywhere has them, and they're simple enough they're pretty much idiot proof (although it is a bit weird when you open one up for the first time and it starts yelling commands at you).

So if you gotta do it, hope like hell that there is an AED nearby.

The more you eat the more you fart: Incorrect. It is 30 to 2.

Bob is correct that the national guidelines are moving away from giving rescue breaths. We were told that under the new guidelines, they are optional, and if you don't have a face shield, then don't worry about them at all. Seems weird, but apparently the stats show that 100bpm chest compressions are way more important than the breaths, which don't do all that much to help.

I'd imagine the compressions themselves get a little air into the lungs, at least.

Can us ordinary civilian slobs buy AEDs?  Should we keep one in the car?  how often do they need to be charged?

/was an Army medic
//skills are WAY out of date

In order: yes. Some pasdive ventillation occurs during proper cpr. Keyword: proper. But its still nothing like getting them intubated and bagged.


Second: yes. You can buy aed's for home use. Most are in the $150-$250 range.


They're also damn near idiot proof to use. A lot of insurance covers their installation as well, at least for business owners.
 
2014-05-07 08:33:27 AM  
CPR, yes.

"Giggle ZAP Giggle ZAP" *tackle*  *arrest* *lawsuit by parents*  Well, that may be fun for students too
 
2014-05-07 08:35:31 AM  

alywa: cretinbob: Teach them the statistics and what happens to a body that has CPR performed on it, then ask them if they want it done to them.

Young people do considerably better than the general population in CPR / Defib events.  I agree with you when dealing with the elderly or already gravely ill, but young people with sudden death are a good risk group to attempt to resuscitate.


This is what my trainer told us when some people expressed trepidation about performing CPR in an emergency, breaking ribs, etc:

If you are performing CPR on a person that has had a sudden cardiac arrest, their heart has stopped and they are dead. And there is nothing you can do that will make their problems any worse than being dead.

While not technically accurate (I believe the medical term is "mostly dead"), it stuck with me as a good way to frame my choice of whether or not I would perform CPR. I would accept the caveat about the elderly, however. Broken ribs and farked up sternum at 83? Dead might actually be the better choice, versus weeks or months of hospital followed by dead.
 
2014-05-07 08:38:54 AM  
I had a CPR (and other first-aid stuff) class in high school, but it was voluntary and after school.
The fire department had proposed the classes and gotten a grant to fund it.

I think that sort of training should be mandatory for faculty and staff, but not necessarily for students.
 
2014-05-07 08:39:06 AM  

RatMaster999: "Even small new costs are a big burden on schools that already don't receive the funding they need," said Zach Messersmith, a lobbyist for the Illinois Association of School Boards.

So make the damned football team do a few carwashes and tell the lacross players to hold a bake sale.


You realize that between tickets sales and concessions, middle American football teams are likely profitable for schools.
 
2014-05-07 08:40:46 AM  

zarker: wildcardjack: I suspect that most Americans, let alone HS students, couldn't maintain CPR compressions long enough to make a difference.

Adrenaline is a hell of a drug. In the situation mentioned in the article, where she just kind of sat down, most people probably wouldn't be very determined in their efforts. But if someone does the clutch and fall thing, it might just cause enough of a reaction for someone who has been trained to fly into action


You can always tell the experienced people because they are usually the ones NOT "flying into action". There is a process..an order of things to be done. The work is done quickly, but calmly.

I can say from experience, in general, you get two tries in an ER. Freak out once, and someone will walk you through things. Freak out twice, and you aren't going to be an ER nurse.

Sometimes, to the untrained eye, it looks like people are taking their time, etc. In reality, its a practiced routine...and rushing means mistakes, and mistakes means lives.

We've had ppl yell at us (family members, etc) for not immediately starting cpr. We dont have time to stop and calmly explain we first have to determine if cpr is even warranted...or if their pukse is just very thready and hard to detect by untrained people.
 
2014-05-07 08:43:01 AM  
Why require it? There are a lot of people who would not use their learned skills because it's icky to deal with sick or injured people.
 
2014-05-07 08:46:32 AM  

Elegy: alywa: cretinbob: Teach them the statistics and what happens to a body that has CPR performed on it, then ask them if they want it done to them.

Young people do considerably better than the general population in CPR / Defib events.  I agree with you when dealing with the elderly or already gravely ill, but young people with sudden death are a good risk group to attempt to resuscitate.

This is what my trainer told us when some people expressed trepidation about performing CPR in an emergency, breaking ribs, etc:

If you are performing CPR on a person that has had a sudden cardiac arrest, their heart has stopped and they are dead. And there is nothing you can do that will make their problems any worse than being dead.

While not technically accurate (I believe the medical term is "mostly dead"), it stuck with me as a good way to frame my choice of whether or not I would perform CPR. I would accept the caveat about the elderly, however. Broken ribs and farked up sternum at 83? Dead might actually be the better choice, versus weeks or months of hospital followed by dead.


While i see both sides, i cannot be unbiased.

I DO agree in certain circumstances like terminal illnesses and tje like that cpr is tantamount to pointless abuse.

However..if grandma is 83 and otherwise healthy...

And for the record: you are not actually breaking ribs...well..maybe one or two. What happens is the costal cartilage is torn away from the sternum.

The sensation under your hands is similar to the bubble wrap with the BIG bubbles popping...and it is audible as a kind of dull "pop" but multiple of them in rapid succession like cracking your knuckles.
 
2014-05-07 08:52:12 AM  
The more you eat the more you fart:

"armchair quarterback, etc. etc."

O
h, you dear sweet child.

You stated that you and  hardinparamedicdon't usually agree.....I think that's because he's actually a professional medical provider, and you are not. Your statements lead me to believe that, while you  may be employed in a healthcare setting, you don't know the first thing about providing care. If you did, you would know that we don't "break ribs on purpose" while doing CPR. Does effective CPR tend to break ribs? Sure it does. Do we do it intentionally? No. If you do, you're a sadist.

Remember that the article was about teaching CPR to students. Those would be "laypeople," hence my assertion that continuous compressions (without the 30:2 ECC/Ventilation ratio) is the preferred (and correct) method.

Since you're a "nurse," you should also understand that Good Samaritan (notice I spelled it correctly) laws do not apply to medical professionals. You either do it right, or you are negligent.

And while I hate to respond to trolls like you who sling accusations while hiding behind a silly moniker, I will at least tell you that I have been a professional Paramedic for 21 years, and an ALS provider for five years before that (Intermediate level.) I am a Paramedic instructor and field preceptor, and have been a CPR Instructor for a dozen years.

And, son.....I was using the term "douchenozzle" before you could walk upright. It usually referred to wannabes like you.
 
2014-05-07 09:01:36 AM  

cretinbob: Ambivalence: Most of what I learned is way out of date now

Nope, You still stop bleeding the same way. CPR itself has changed because it's mostly useless, but they keep trying to figure out ways to make it work better. Now, it's all compressions, don't stop giving compressions.
We'll see what they do in another 10 years.


It's not totally useless, though. Early CPR, defibrilation and advanced emergency cardiac care vastly increase the chance of survival under the right circumstances. A trauma arrest has a near zero chance of survival. An arrest due to ventricular fibrilation has a high success rate when care is provided early. The trouble is that a bystander has no way to know whether a pulseless non-breather is in v-fib or is asystolic. So why not give it a try? Worst case, the AED won't deliver a shock and you'll break some ribs on a corpse. The best case is a complete recovery.

In the case of the girl in the article, I don't know that a defibrilator would have been effective or not, but why not give an 18-year old the best shot she can get?
 
2014-05-07 09:07:34 AM  
wth is all this talk about "cost" and "unfunded mandates" - it's a freaking *school* - teaching stuff should be included in the freakin' base model, not the premium model.

and fwiw, did my cpr for healthcare providers renewal last year, took about 4 hours, and we really could have hit the bullet points in a half hour.
 
2014-05-07 09:10:36 AM  

love-m'-beer: The more you eat the more you fart:

"armchair quarterback, etc. etc."

Oh, you dear sweet child.

You stated that you and  hardinparamedicdon't usually agree.....I think that's because he's actually a professional medical provider, and you are not. Your statements lead me to believe that, while you  may be employed in a healthcare setting, you don't know the first thing about providing care. If you did, you would know that we don't "break ribs on purpose" while doing CPR. Does effective CPR tend to break ribs? Sure it does. Do we do it intentionally? No. If you do, you're a sadist.

Remember that the article was about teaching CPR to students. Those would be "laypeople," hence my assertion that continuous compressions (without the 30:2 ECC/Ventilation ratio) is the preferred (and correct) method.

Since you're a "nurse," you should also understand that Good Samaritan (notice I spelled it correctly) laws do not apply to medical professionals. You either do it right, or you are negligent.

And while I hate to respond to trolls like you who sling accusations while hiding behind a silly moniker, I will at least tell you that I have been a professional Paramedic for 21 years, and an ALS provider for five years before that (Intermediate level.) I am a Paramedic instructor and field preceptor, and have been a CPR Instructor for a dozen years.

And, son.....I was using the term "douchenozzle" before you could walk upright. It usually referred to wannabes like you.


You are incorrect yet again on MANY things..but ill just point out one: the good samaritan law covers nurses in my state when performing cpr outside of a hospital setting. It does NOT cover ems and paramedics.

And i stand by my statement regarding compressions, as this is how EVERY instructor i have been to has taught us...and is exactly what we are told in the ER.

And ill tell YOU: i habe worked in the biggest hospital in my state for 14 years, all of them primarily in the ER (or E.D. as it is actually called). I have been licensed as a nurse for 16 years and am a nurse preceptor for new grads, carrying magnet status for the last 8 years in a row.

Go preach your shiat somewhere else kiddo.
 
2014-05-07 09:23:58 AM  
Should schools teach it?  Ehh, maybe, probably, sure, why not......If the district wants to and has the okay of the State, go for it.

Should it be "mandatory"?  No....
 
2014-05-07 09:33:19 AM  
Isn't that what Boy/Girl Scouts are all about?
 
2014-05-07 10:03:31 AM  
It was Phys Ed class in grade 10 when we took that.  They even had the dummies to learn on.

/Canada
 
2014-05-07 10:24:20 AM  
Well, this thread has been very educational.
 
2014-05-07 10:25:56 AM  

SilentStrider: Those people with the problems can go f*ck themselves.


Really even if the problem is asking who the hell is supposed to pay for all this extra training?

Its a valid question unless you think money poops out of tacos.
 
2014-05-07 10:28:12 AM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: hubiestubert: I keep getting my CPR training updated. It's important in the hospitality trade. Only had to use it once, and only had to use the Heimlich once--my daughter got very excited about having a hot dog, and popped the sucker up with one push, and told her to slow down, and she was young enough that if I didn't freak out, she didn't freak out--but the one time I had to CPR I was damn lucky it was with someone else to trade on compressions, because the ambulance took forever. And this was before the defibrillator kits were common. We felt the ribs, and we still weren't getting anything, so we kept going. The EMTs got there and took over, and we were glad to let them.

As for not paying for the skill set: maybe folks should think a bit on where those priorities are. Saving lives, or saving a football team's uniform laundry service?

I admire you as being a rational, intelligent, and erudite (if somewhat wordy at times) Farker

/but damn, dude... you know the answer to that question in a substantial part of the country


Also football games sell tickets which generates revenue for the school, so its not as if football is a giant money pit, and concessions at football games often generate revenue for other school clubs or booster groups.
 
2014-05-07 10:30:46 AM  

The more you eat the more you fart: First time i was ever taught CPR, i was 9 years old.

Who taught me? The Boy Scouts of America.


good for you but not everyone can get into the boy scouts remember.
 
2014-05-07 10:34:02 AM  

Mark Ratner: We had to learn it in 9th grade health class on a rubber mannequin named "Annie." But she had no arms and legs, so I guess it was basically just a torso with a female head and red hair. Of course, her mouth had to be sterilized with rubbing alcohol before each student could practice. Tasted and smelled nasty. Looking back, it seems so farked up.


Really? I would've assumed that she'd have been okay. Did you ask her?
 
2014-05-07 10:42:45 AM  

onzmadi: The more you eat the more you fart: First time i was ever taught CPR, i was 9 years old.

Who taught me? The Boy Scouts of America.

good for you but not everyone can get into the boy scouts remember.


Yeah..unfortunately.
 
2014-05-07 10:44:46 AM  

unknownshooter: wth is all this talk about "cost" and "unfunded mandates" - it's a freaking *school* - teaching stuff should be included in the freakin' base model, not the premium model.

and fwiw, did my cpr for healthcare providers renewal last year, took about 4 hours, and we really could have hit the bullet points in a half hour.


This is the part that kills be too.

I do this on a nearly daily basis...and have to sit through a four hour recert class.

Look...you changed the ratios (or whatever changed if anything). I get it. Let's move on.
 
2014-05-07 10:45:46 AM  
www.frontlinefirstaid.ca
 
2014-05-07 11:01:54 AM  

lizyrd: In the case of the girl in the article, I don't know that a defibrilator would have been effective or not, but why not give an 18-year old the best shot she can get?


Outside of someone who has a known structural congenital heart defect or hypertrophic cardiomegaly, 18 year olds usually arrest for a small number of causes - secondary to another condition such as Respiratory distress/inability to oxygenate, undiagnosed channelopathies and accessory pathways such as Long QT syndrome or WPW, myocarditis/endocarditis, or commotio cordis.

Early defibrillation in these groups is lifesaving. Commotio Cordis deserves special mention, as it has a nearly 100% survival rate provided early CPR and early defibrillation, since it is basically an R-On-T event caused by trauma.

Hypovolemia-induced traumatic arrest, however, has a less than 1% survival rate.

As a side note, Jonesboro Arkansas has nearly a 60% ROSC Rate in the field for non-traumatic cardiac arrest, and a 30% survival rate according to Ulstein guidelines.

Elegy: Batteries are lithium packs and good for 1-3 years, I believe. You should check em monthly, but they usually don't need to topped off or anything - they'll hold a charge for a good long time.


As a side note, if you have a cardiologist to sign off that you or a member of your family are high risk for sudden cardiac arrest, insurance will pay for you an AED for your house. They typically run about 700 dollars at their cheapest, and the Phillips Heartstart Home is sold in CostCo.
 
2014-05-07 11:32:10 AM  
When my son was born, almost 2 months preemie. One day he got hold of a dime, swallowed it, and the wife was freaking out, being mild on the CPR. He was turning deep blue, I grabbed him, and gave him a huge whack on his back, he coughed it up, and all was well. God thing the young uns have rubbery bones. Sometimes when he argues with me, I tell him not to make me regret my decision.
 
2014-05-07 11:33:30 AM  
If someone wants CPR performed, fine. But there needs to be some education on what happens. It's not a magic trick that all of the sudden you are going to come back to life and everything will be cool. CPR keeps the blood circulating until we get a chance to start a line and get some drugs pushed into you. IF you will have an ROSC , that's what will do it. Defibrillation has been added and is another thing that, while important, gives false hope that it's a magic trick. It does not "restart the heart" and I've had to explain that after PAD deployment a couple of times. People get very upset when they "don't work". Be cautious about statistics, especially from the Red Cross and AHA, as they are selling CPR training as a service. And when you break it down to "this city" or "that city" sample sizes get skewed.

Unless chest compressions are started immediately, and advanced techniques started in five minutes or so, depending on the time of year (no one is dead until they are warm and dead), the outcome is very poor. 98% of those who ROSC never recover. You may buy the family time to say goodbye, which is a thing in and of itself, but at what cost to the patient?

Oh, and I'm talking about people over 60ish......
Under 60, fark yeah they get the full treatment. But adults over 60, you should see what really happens, and then decide if you want to be resuscitated or not.
 
2014-05-07 11:41:46 AM  

Ex-Texan: When my son was born, almost 2 months preemie. One day he got hold of a dime, swallowed it, and the wife was freaking out, being mild on the CPR. He was turning deep blue, I grabbed him, and gave him a huge whack on his back, he coughed it up, and all was well. God thing the young uns have rubbery bones. Sometimes when he argues with me, I tell him not to make me regret my decision.


When I was about 2, I began choking on a chicken bone at lunch. My mother begins yelling in fear as I turned blue. My dad instinctively gave me a hard hit to my back. I coughed up the bone. My mother yelled at my dad that he could have killed me with that blow. My father replied, "He was going to die anyway." When parents are in that instinctive mode, it's often a wonder that kids ever survive to adulthood.
 
2014-05-07 11:52:21 AM  

Alphax: Back when I was in school, aspirin and Tylenol were not allowed.


I understand why aspirin isn't allowed.  Though it's rare, I had a friend in high school who had this complication from it:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reye_syndrome

That said, we've gotten WAY too cautious.  It seems insane to me that I couldn't just have a small thing of Advil in my locker as a high school kid.
 
2014-05-07 11:53:27 AM  
And people biatch about Scouting (both BSA and GSA offer full 1st aid training).

I can *sort of* see the school systems' concerns. The training would need to be standardized across the state to prevent liability issues and that would come with a cost.  Since it is a state mandate, the state should pick it up.
 
2014-05-07 11:54:47 AM  

cretinbob: Oh, and I'm talking about people over 60ish......


You really need to make that clear up front, Bob. Because talking about someone who is elderly and with multiple co-morbidities who may not have a quality of life if they are resuscitated is quite different than a 18 year old dropping dead at a track meet at school.

cretinbob: Be cautious about statistics, especially from the Red Cross and AHA, as they are selling CPR training as a service. And when you break it down to "this city" or "that city" sample sizes get skewed.


The Red Cross  IS selling a service. They take the research compiled by the AHA and  Circulation, and develop their own staggered curriculum which separates Adults, Children, and Infants and charges for each. Many hospitals, ambulance services, and professional agencies provide AHA training free of cost. In addition, the AHA guidelines are evidence based - and published with citations to studies backing their sentiments.

cretinbob: CPR keeps the blood circulating until we get a chance to start a line and get some drugs pushed into you


The most common drugs, Epinephrine and Vasopressin alone, have no advantage in survival to discharge versus people who do not get them (To be fair, enough epinephrine can give a corpse a pulse). The science behind administering vasopressors in cardiac arrest to a diseased heart is pretty wonky, and amounts to anecdotal tradition. Nontraditional treatments, such as sodium nitroprusside enhanced resuscitation and Vasopressin-Steroid-Epinephrine enhanced drug therapies are showing more promise.

CPR buys time to reverse the cause of the cardiac arrest. In some cases, that cause cannot be reversed (Massive PE, massive zone of infarction in AMI).

cretinbob: And when you break it down to "this city" or "that city" sample sizes get skewed.


It's broken down that way for a reason, because the samples are dependant on factors such as response times of EMS, capabilities of EMS in a location, capabilities of receiving facilities in a location, and implementation of publi access CPR and AED availability. Seattle, for example, has a higher resuscitation rate than rural Texas for a reason. It has nothing to do with skewing the samples, as cardiac arrest survival rates are examined using Utstein criteria.

cretinbob: 98% of those who ROSC never recover.


The national average for neuro intact survival, ignoring local variations, is about 10%. Some regions have rates as high as 50-60% for primarily cardiac causes, some have as low as 5%.
 
2014-05-07 12:36:38 PM  
I'm not a trained medical professional and it has been years since I last had a valid CPR card from the Heart Association so I'll leave the debate about methods and stats to them, but I did spend nearly twenty years practicing law so here's my take on Good Samaritan laws and liability for someone who steps up and does CPR.  1. Most states do have Good Samaritan laws which shield anyone making a reasonable attempt to perform CPR even if they are not certified.  2. Medical professionals are generally held to a higher standard of care by virtue of their training, but that varies by state and the setting it is performed in- in a medical facility there is no reason not to apply the normal standards for professional malpractice, but outside of one what is reasonable (and therefore not negligent) will differ. 3. The legal realism take on CPR is that judges will be reluctant to let a case where a person in good faith performs CPR even if they aren't certified or don't follow current guidelines go to a jury and will look very hard for a legal basis to dismiss the case on summary judgement unless you are a horse's ass and prevent someone else on the scene who is qualified from taking over even if the jurisdiction doesn't have a Good Samaritan law, and if the case ever gets to a jury,  the average jury won't be inclined to come to a verdict against you or to award anything beyond nominal damages if the feel they have to find you liable. Short of pretending you are a medical professional or interfering with someone else who is attempting to perform CPR- you're very unlikely to be found liable for performing CPR
 
2014-05-07 12:45:10 PM  

stan unusual: The legal realism take on CPR is that judges will be reluctant to let a case where a person in good faith performs CPR even if they aren't certified or don't follow current guidelines go to a jury and will look very hard for a legal basis to dismiss the case on summary judgement unless you are a horse's ass and prevent someone else on the scene who is qualified from taking over even if the jurisdiction doesn't have a Good Samaritan law, and if the case ever gets to a jury,  the average jury won't be inclined to come to a verdict against you or to award anything beyond nominal damages if the feel they have to find you liable. Short of pretending you are a medical professional or interfering with someone else who is attempting to perform CPR- you're very unlikely to be found liable for performing CPR


I would challenge anyone to cite a case where a bystander, performing CPR, has been successfully sued in civil court - medical or non-medical - because either the person died, or the person survived with severe deficits.
 
2014-05-07 01:02:41 PM  
I need CPR on my cock.
 
2014-05-07 01:06:36 PM  

unknownshooter: wth is all this talk about "cost" and "unfunded mandates" - it's a freaking *school* - teaching stuff should be included in the freakin' base model, not the premium model.

and fwiw, did my cpr for healthcare providers renewal last year, took about 4 hours, and we really could have hit the bullet points in a half hour.


And funding for teaching should be included in the base model too.  But it isn't.

/But you knew that
//Hook
///Line
////And sinker
 
2014-05-07 01:06:37 PM  

Ayatollah of Rock-n-Rolla: We had the fire department come in and train us how to do CPR as part of our 10th grade health class, and that was in "not going to spend a dime on education" Alabama.  We also got our boaters licenses as part of our driver's ed classes the same year.  In both instances, the teacher of the class did all the legwork her/him self and just incorporated the material into the class (and I'm pretty sure both were free of charge for the class). Sometimes all it takes for you as a student to be able to do cool things in school is to have a teacher that is willing to spend a little time to make it happen.


Also from Alabama and I teach CPR several times a year for free at my town's middle and high schools.  As long as you're not teaching a class that give a card (Heartsaver or BLS for HealthCare Provider), there's no cost for the students and the instructor material is under $50 (one time cost).  The trick is finding instructors willing to teach the courses for free or little cost.  The AHA seems bent on making it more expensive and difficult to become an instructor so the pool is getting thinner but it wouldn't be hard for each school system to train a staff member as an instructor.

What I find really interesting is that Alabama has required schools to have defibrillators for years and each of our schools (my county, don't know about statewide) have a MERT (medical emergency response team) consisting of staff members trained in CPR and first aid.  I would have assumed we were following a national trend.  I'm genuinely shocked to learn that Illinois doesn't even have AEDs.
 
2014-05-07 01:15:34 PM  

JustGetItRight: The AHA seems bent on making it more expensive and difficult to become an instructor so the pool is getting thinner but it wouldn't be hard for each school system to train a staff member as an instructor.


The reason is that, back around 2005, the AHA relaxed their regulations and requirements for all levels of instructors. So everyone and their mother got an instructor card to pad their resume with, because people who can teach the AHA classes (since the professional classes are required by JCAHO and many state professional boards as a way to maintain up to date knowledge) can save the institution time and money. So what you had were tens of thousands of instructors, and maybe ten percent of them were actually teaching classes.

JustGetItRight: What I find really interesting is that Alabama has required schools to have defibrillators for years and each of our schools (my county, don't know about statewide) have a MERT (medical emergency response team) consisting of staff members trained in CPR and first aid.  I would have assumed we were following a national trend.  I'm genuinely shocked to learn that Illinois doesn't even have AEDs.


Tennessee has had them for years in every high school and sports complex. There are even federal grants available to support their purchases.
 
2014-05-07 01:17:34 PM  

hardinparamedic: The reason is that, back around 2005, the AHA relaxed their regulations and requirements for all levels of instructors. So everyone and their mother got an instructor card to pad their resume with, because people who can teach the AHA classes (since the professional classes are required by JCAHO and many state professional boards as a way to maintain up to date knowledge) can save the institution time and money. So what you had were tens of thousands of instructors, and maybe ten percent of them were actually teaching classes.


Deep down I understand that point.  I've been an instructor since 2000 and I guess I'm just getting cranky in my old age.
 
2014-05-07 01:44:18 PM  

fusillade762: Ambivalence: I learned CPR in 6th grade.  learning basic first aid was mandatory. I learned how to do CPR, splint a broken limb, make a sling, all kinds of cool shiat.  Most of what I learned is way out of date now (I want to say it was 30 years ago?) but I knew it and there wasn't anything at all controversial about learning it.

The controversy doesn't appear to be about the learning. It's about paying for the learning.


They don't want to add CPR training to the curriculum, because that would take away money from football! And Heaven knows, we can't be taking money away from God's Holy Sport...

/You know it's true
//No sense in denying it
 
2014-05-07 01:47:42 PM  

hardinparamedic: lizyrd: In the case of the girl in the article, I don't know that a defibrilator would have been effective or not, but why not give an 18-year old the best shot she can get?

Outside of someone who has a known structural congenital heart defect or hypertrophic cardiomegaly, 18 year olds usually arrest for a small number of causes - secondary to another condition such as Respiratory distress/inability to oxygenate, undiagnosed channelopathies and accessory pathways such as Long QT syndrome or WPW, myocarditis/endocarditis, or commotio cordis.

Early defibrillation in these groups is lifesaving. Commotio Cordis deserves special mention, as it has a nearly 100% survival rate provided early CPR and early defibrillation, since it is basically an R-On-T event caused by trauma.

Hypovolemia-induced traumatic arrest, however, has a less than 1% survival rate.

As a side note, Jonesboro Arkansas has nearly a 60% ROSC Rate in the field for non-traumatic cardiac arrest, and a 30% survival rate according to Ulstein guidelines.

Elegy: Batteries are lithium packs and good for 1-3 years, I believe. You should check em monthly, but they usually don't need to topped off or anything - they'll hold a charge for a good long time.

As a side note, if you have a cardiologist to sign off that you or a member of your family are high risk for sudden cardiac arrest, insurance will pay for you an AED for your house. They typically run about 700 dollars at their cheapest, and the Phillips Heartstart Home is sold in CostCo.


Right, but as noted in the article this girl was diagnosed with mitral valve prolapse. Reading about the condition and usual causes of death, I'm not sure that defib would be effective. CPR and oxygenation coupled with rapid access to a decent facility may have given her a chance, since the problems associated with the condition seem to be improper routing of the blood through the heart. But what do I know, I'm just a fireman. I may be way off base.
 
2014-05-07 01:50:03 PM  
This was mandatory in many places in the late 80's early 90's. I think  I got my first course in summer camp when I was maybe 5 or 6 years old.

NBD, learned a lot. Made becoming a lifeguard as a teenager cake.
 
2014-05-07 02:02:14 PM  

cretinbob: If someone wants CPR performed, fine. But there needs to be some education on what happens. It's not a magic trick that all of the sudden you are going to come back to life and everything will be cool.


And yet, sometimes it is magic. Just last week, one of my wife's coworkers had a massive heart attack. To make matters worse, he was in the middle of nowhere, so it took 40 minutes for the paramedics to arrive. Fortunately, some of the people he was with knew CPR and they worked on him the entire time. As a result, the guy needs a little rehabilitation, but he's going to be fine.
 
2014-05-07 03:14:33 PM  

The more you eat the more you fart: Check amazon. Lol

I saw a few for $250


First page of Amazon's Defibrillator section lists ONE AED on the first page for $1200.  The rest are things like a replacement battery for $150, and various mounting brackets and cases for $70-150.  Second page also only has one, and it's even more expensive.

Having reviewed the section completely, I only saw TWO full up non-training AEDs, with the rest being a mix of batteries, pads, and trainers.

The more you eat the more you fart: Second: yes. You can buy aed's for home use. Most are in the $150-$250 range.


What's your source, and is it reliable?  My GIS for "home use AED": $369, $1199, $1199, $799, $875

Infant pads alone are $105.
 
2014-05-07 06:02:58 PM  

HotWingAgenda: A CPR course was mandatory when I was in high school. But that was like a decade and a half ago, back when the Earth was flat and people thought California was an island in the Pacific.


From what I understand the hands only CPR is showing some remarkable success.  Chest compressions build blood pressure, and when you stop to blow air into the lungs, the blood pressure drops to zero, which also means that none of the air you just blew in actually goes anywhere.  However, the chest compressions do force a small amount of air into the lungs, enough to theoretically keep you alive until a doctor can get your heart started back up again.  The need for the breaths were the medical equivalent of an old wives tail, and every single change over the years has been for more compressions, and fewer breaths.  They have never shortened the number of compressions.  Since you can't get less than zero, on breaths, I think hands only CPR is here to stay.
 
2014-05-07 07:55:22 PM  

Some Coke Drinking Guy: The need for the breaths were the medical equivalent of an old wives tail, and every single change over the years has been for more compressions, and fewer breaths.  They have never shortened the number of compressions.  Since you can't get less than zero, on breaths, I think hands only CPR is here to stay.


It's a little more complex than that. In an adult or older teen patient who suddenly grabs his chest and drops dead, you're absolutely right. In anyone else, or for someone who arrests for a cause not primarily cardiac, airway management in the first five minutes is much more important.
 
2014-05-07 10:29:10 PM  

hardinparamedic: I would challenge anyone to cite a case where a bystander, performing CPR, has been successfully sued in civil court - medical or non-medical - because either the person died, or the person survived with severe deficits.


http://victimslawyercalifornia.blogspot.com/2012/08/improper-trainin g- of-employees.html

It's a little round-about, but essentially a $14 million judgment for not getting sufficiently good results from CPR.
 
2014-05-07 10:51:00 PM  

fnordfocus: It's a little round-about, but essentially a $14 million judgment for not getting sufficiently good results from CPR.


That has nothing to do with a bystander with no duty to act providing CPR - which would be covered under Good Samaritan laws. In California, fitness trainers and gym workers are required to have CPR and AED training and have a duty to act under that state's law. According to the findings of the case, the trainers delayed the start of CPR and activation of the 911 response system, and as such were the proximal cause of his lifelong disability.

Good Samaritan laws do not apply to people who are called upon to respond to medical emergencies as described in their job descriptions, or to medical personnel or responders who are on duty - volunteer or paid, who have a duty to act and respond within the expected parameters of their profession.

The physician and nurse on site working out did not have a duty to respond.
 
2014-05-08 12:19:14 AM  
I'll go even farther:

CPR should be a requirement for graduation. Suck it haters.
 
2014-05-08 02:00:15 AM  
You know what's really cool?  The talking AEDs that have a sensor in the pads so it can tell you if you're doing your compressions correctly.  I think they also have a training app that makes use of your phone's accelerometer to similar effect (if you've got a dummy torso to use it on).
 
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