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(Chicago Trib)   New bill would require high schools to teach students how to perform CPR and use defibrillators. Naturally, some people have a problem with this   (chicagotribune.com) divider line 127
    More: Interesting, CPR, high schools, Illinois, George Laman, Illinois House, Elmhurst, St. Charles, American Heart Association  
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4039 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 May 2014 at 2:35 AM (10 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-07 12:31:51 AM
Those people with the problems can go f*ck themselves.
 
2014-05-07 12:38:41 AM
Teach them the statistics and what happens to a body that has CPR performed on it, then ask them if they want it done to them.
 
2014-05-07 01:00:48 AM
I learned CPR in 6th grade.  learning basic first aid was mandatory. I learned how to do CPR, splint a broken limb, make a sling, all kinds of cool shiat.  Most of what I learned is way out of date now (I want to say it was 30 years ago?) but I knew it and there wasn't anything at all controversial about learning it.
 
2014-05-07 01:14:41 AM

Ambivalence: I learned CPR in 6th grade.  learning basic first aid was mandatory. I learned how to do CPR, splint a broken limb, make a sling, all kinds of cool shiat.  Most of what I learned is way out of date now (I want to say it was 30 years ago?) but I knew it and there wasn't anything at all controversial about learning it.


The controversy doesn't appear to be about the learning. It's about paying for the learning.
 
2014-05-07 01:16:33 AM

Ambivalence: Most of what I learned is way out of date now


Nope, You still stop bleeding the same way. CPR itself has changed because it's mostly useless, but they keep trying to figure out ways to make it work better. Now, it's all compressions, don't stop giving compressions.
We'll see what they do in another 10 years.
 
2014-05-07 01:24:57 AM
A CPR course was mandatory when I was in high school. But that was like a decade and a half ago, back when the Earth was flat and people thought California was an island in the Pacific.
 
2014-05-07 01:27:12 AM

Ambivalence: I learned CPR in 6th grade.  learning basic first aid was mandatory. I learned how to do CPR, splint a broken limb, make a sling, all kinds of cool shiat.  Most of what I learned is way out of date now (I want to say it was 30 years ago?) but I knew it and there wasn't anything at all controversial about learning it.



I was a firefighter with full advanced first aid and cpr credentials at 16

/it isn't an ability or responsibility issue
//it's a money and liability issue
 
2014-05-07 01:30:58 AM

fusillade762: Ambivalence: I learned CPR in 6th grade.  learning basic first aid was mandatory. I learned how to do CPR, splint a broken limb, make a sling, all kinds of cool shiat.  Most of what I learned is way out of date now (I want to say it was 30 years ago?) but I knew it and there wasn't anything at all controversial about learning it.

The controversy doesn't appear to be about the learning. It's about paying for the learning.


I guess I don't understand why it's so hard to pay for something that should have already been an mandatory part of the curiculum.  First aid/CPR is a good skill to have.
 
2014-05-07 01:46:10 AM
I keep getting my CPR training updated. It's important in the hospitality trade. Only had to use it once, and only had to use the Heimlich once--my daughter got very excited about having a hot dog, and popped the sucker up with one push, and told her to slow down, and she was young enough that if I didn't freak out, she didn't freak out--but the one time I had to CPR I was damn lucky it was with someone else to trade on compressions, because the ambulance took forever. And this was before the defibrillator kits were common. We felt the ribs, and we still weren't getting anything, so we kept going. The EMTs got there and took over, and we were glad to let them.

As for not paying for the skill set: maybe folks should think a bit on where those priorities are. Saving lives, or saving a football team's uniform laundry service?
 
2014-05-07 01:52:25 AM

hubiestubert: I keep getting my CPR training updated. It's important in the hospitality trade. Only had to use it once, and only had to use the Heimlich once--my daughter got very excited about having a hot dog, and popped the sucker up with one push, and told her to slow down, and she was young enough that if I didn't freak out, she didn't freak out--but the one time I had to CPR I was damn lucky it was with someone else to trade on compressions, because the ambulance took forever. And this was before the defibrillator kits were common. We felt the ribs, and we still weren't getting anything, so we kept going. The EMTs got there and took over, and we were glad to let them.

As for not paying for the skill set: maybe folks should think a bit on where those priorities are. Saving lives, or saving a football team's uniform laundry service?


I admire you as being a rational, intelligent, and erudite (if somewhat wordy at times) Farker

/but damn, dude... you know the answer to that question in a substantial part of the country
 
2014-05-07 02:09:10 AM

HotWingAgenda: A CPR course was mandatory when I was in high school. But that was like a decade and a half ago, back when the Earth was flat and people thought California was an island in the Pacific.


Yup. One entire quarter of my high school biology class was dedicated to CPR certification. My biology teacher was also an EMT at the time and is now a family practitioner.
 
2014-05-07 02:31:42 AM
We had to learn it in 9th grade health class on a rubber mannequin named "Annie." But she had no arms and legs, so I guess it was basically just a torso with a female head and red hair. Of course, her mouth had to be sterilized with rubbing alcohol before each student could practice. Tasted and smelled nasty. Looking back, it seems so farked up.
 
2014-05-07 02:44:22 AM
This may be how zombies begin....
 
2014-05-07 02:48:51 AM
"Even small new costs are a big burden on schools that already don't receive the funding they need," said Zach Messersmith, a lobbyist for the Illinois Association of School Boards.

So make the damned football team do a few carwashes and tell the lacross players to hold a bake sale.
 
2014-05-07 02:51:48 AM
This will save the lives of more Americans in one year than all the money pissed away on 'anti-terrorism efforts' to date.
 
2014-05-07 02:56:41 AM

cretinbob: Teach them the statistics and what happens to a body that has CPR performed on it, then ask them if they want it done to them.


Most people would probably prefer to live temporarily with broken ribs than die
 
2014-05-07 03:00:45 AM
The only people who have a problem with it are people who think any person under the age of 21 should never be allowed to do anything but then when they're 21, they're adults who are adults who should suddenly know how to do everything.
 
2014-05-07 03:01:11 AM
They have to have the defibrillators in IL schools, and the instructions on them are simple enough a 4th grader could follow them (well, most 4th graders).

zarker: Most people would probably prefer to live temporarily with broken ribs than die


That's what the paramedics who ran my first CPR class said.

If you break ribs, just reposition your hands and keep doing CPR.  They should live long enough to worry about broken ribs.
 
2014-05-07 03:02:49 AM
AFAIK cpr only has a 13% success rate, andbrings the risk if breakung some ribs. Personally, i'd prefer a 13% chance to live and a few broken ribs over being a cooling corpse waiting for an ambulance to arrive.

/please correct me if i have some of the facts wrong
 
2014-05-07 03:08:51 AM

SilentStrider: Those people with the problems can go f*ck themselves.


done in one
 
2014-05-07 03:13:45 AM
They don't have school nurses anymore?
 
2014-05-07 03:15:32 AM

kling_klang_bed: They don't have school nurses anymore?


Generally, no, not in high school.
 
2014-05-07 03:21:26 AM
A very good friend of mine, a top notch science teacher and a wonderful person, was walking down Telegraph Avenue one lovely afternoon when, next thing she knew, she woke up in an intensive care unit at a local hospital. She had a few broken ribs and no idea how she'd got there or what had happened.
She had gone into anaphylactic shock due to being stung by a bee and her heart had stopped. Someone had performed CPR on her until the EMTs arrived, saving her life. She never found out who the person was who had saved her.
It's mighty dusty every time I think of that person saving my friend's life. There are, literally, hundreds of students whose lives she has changed (for the better) and who are thankful that she was saved. She is one of those teachers that people name when asked "Did you ever have a favorite teacher? Someone who inspired you?"
Find the money. Save a life.
 
2014-05-07 03:23:27 AM

zarker: kling_klang_bed: They don't have school nurses anymore?

Generally, no, not in high school.


They went along with librarians and counselors

/is our kids learning to be adults?
 
2014-05-07 03:26:52 AM

cretinbob: Ambivalence: Most of what I learned is way out of date now

Nope, You still stop bleeding the same way. CPR itself has changed because it's mostly useless, but they keep trying to figure out ways to make it work better. Now, it's all compressions, don't stop giving compressions.
We'll see what they do in another 10 years.


Incorrect. It is 30 to 2.
 
2014-05-07 03:32:49 AM

Dance Party: They have to have the defibrillators in IL schools, and the instructions on them are simple enough a 4th grader could follow them (well, most 4th graders).

zarker: Most people would probably prefer to live temporarily with broken ribs than die

That's what the paramedics who ran my first CPR class said.

If you break ribs, just reposition your hands and keep doing CPR.  They should live long enough to worry about broken ribs.


I work in an ER where we sometimes (okay..often) perform cpr.

Here's a dirty little secret: we INTENTIONALLY break ribs when doing cpr. The first person who initiates compressions...on the first compression will JAM down your sternum. Why? Because the suporting cartillage (you arent really breaking bone...you are separating cartillage from the sternum) prevents effevtive chest compressions.

We are trying to save your life. We need to keep blood circulating, and that means getting a good squeeze on your heart.
 
2014-05-07 03:33:39 AM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: They went along with librarians and counselors


I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that librarians are going to be insanely important in the near future.
Not that they aren't already important; I mean an order of magnitude more important. As in, "I'm going into library science" will be like declaring a major in medicine, only you have to be way smarter.
 
2014-05-07 03:34:31 AM
Sorry for the typos...touch screen phone keyboards arent the best.
 
2014-05-07 03:34:33 AM

Hermione_Granger: The only people who have a problem with it are people who think any person under the age of 21 should never be allowed to do anything but then when they're 21, they're adults who are adults who should suddenly know how to do everything.


That and the hordes of narcissistic wankstains who can't abide the idea of government spending for anything, no matter how inexpensive or vital, that does not benefit them clearly and directly.
 
2014-05-07 03:37:14 AM
First time i was ever taught CPR, i was 9 years old.

Who taught me? The Boy Scouts of America.
 
2014-05-07 03:39:11 AM

red5ish: MaudlinMutantMollusk: They went along with librarians and counselors

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that librarians are going to be insanely important in the near future.
Not that they aren't already important; I mean an order of magnitude more important. As in, "I'm going into library science" will be like declaring a major in medicine, only you have to be way smarter.


Heh... yeah, I know. I was actually part of initiating that decline locally, in fact

/librarian is a job that needed to morph into another form
//more of a internet/research facilitator
///one with superior google-fu skills, if you will
 
2014-05-07 03:43:22 AM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: Ambivalence: I learned CPR in 6th grade.  learning basic first aid was mandatory. I learned how to do CPR, splint a broken limb, make a sling, all kinds of cool shiat.  Most of what I learned is way out of date now (I want to say it was 30 years ago?) but I knew it and there wasn't anything at all controversial about learning it.


I was a firefighter with full advanced first aid and cpr credentials at 16

/it isn't an ability or responsibility issue
//it's a money and liability issue


Liability?

Most states have a "good samaritin law" that says you cannot be sued for taking prudent action.

This law covers breaking ribs while doing cpr.

At least it does in my state...
 
2014-05-07 03:49:24 AM

Smoking GNU: AFAIK cpr only has a 13% success rate, andbrings the risk if breakung some ribs. Personally, i'd prefer a 13% chance to live and a few broken ribs over being a cooling corpse waiting for an ambulance to arrive.

/please correct me if i have some of the facts wrong


In my personal extensive experience, i'd say cpr alone has about a 20% success rate in actually restoring autonomic pulse and respirations.

It is much higher if you include keeping them alive and/or preventing brain death long enough for more advanced life support such as epi injections and intubation ventilation support to arrive or be administered. If you include this, i'd put it closer to 40%.
 
2014-05-07 03:52:58 AM

The more you eat the more you fart: MaudlinMutantMollusk: Ambivalence: I learned CPR in 6th grade.  learning basic first aid was mandatory. I learned how to do CPR, splint a broken limb, make a sling, all kinds of cool shiat.  Most of what I learned is way out of date now (I want to say it was 30 years ago?) but I knew it and there wasn't anything at all controversial about learning it.


I was a firefighter with full advanced first aid and cpr credentials at 16

/it isn't an ability or responsibility issue
//it's a money and liability issue

Liability?

Most states have a "good samaritin law" that says you cannot be sued for taking prudent action.

This law covers breaking ribs while doing cpr.

At least it does in my state...


That may be so. I don't claim a 6th grade certificate in law, and it's been a long time since it was a subject I followed with any interest. Not that I'd care or hesitate if I needed to use my rusty skills

/may you live to sue my incompetent ass
 
2014-05-07 03:57:31 AM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: The more you eat the more you fart: MaudlinMutantMollusk: Ambivalence: I learned CPR in 6th grade.  learning basic first aid was mandatory. I learned how to do CPR, splint a broken limb, make a sling, all kinds of cool shiat.  Most of what I learned is way out of date now (I want to say it was 30 years ago?) but I knew it and there wasn't anything at all controversial about learning it.


I was a firefighter with full advanced first aid and cpr credentials at 16

/it isn't an ability or responsibility issue
//it's a money and liability issue

Liability?

Most states have a "good samaritin law" that says you cannot be sued for taking prudent action.

This law covers breaking ribs while doing cpr.

At least it does in my state...

That may be so. I don't claim a 6th grade certificate in law, and it's been a long time since it was a subject I followed with any interest. Not that I'd care or hesitate if I needed to use my rusty skills

/may you live to sue my incompetent ass


And anyone who tried to sue you for that is a douche...and i think they would be hard-pressed to find a judge that would rule against you.
 
2014-05-07 04:04:04 AM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: /librarian is a job that needed to morph into another form
//more of a internet/research facilitator
///one with superior google-fu skills, if you will


I believe it will involve a lot more than Google-fu. It will be more along the lines of shaping the internet and bringing order out of chaos. I'm talking about major players, not helpers. Your average (which means hugely superior) research librarian can already run circles around Google search algorithms.

Library science is going to be crucial in this age of information. Very smart people are already there.
 
2014-05-07 04:10:39 AM

Ambivalence: fusillade762: Ambivalence: I learned CPR in 6th grade.  learning basic first aid was mandatory. I learned how to do CPR, splint a broken limb, make a sling, all kinds of cool shiat.  Most of what I learned is way out of date now (I want to say it was 30 years ago?) but I knew it and there wasn't anything at all controversial about learning it.

The controversy doesn't appear to be about the learning. It's about paying for the learning.

I guess I don't understand why it's so hard to pay for something that should have already been an mandatory part of the curiculum.  First aid/CPR is a good skill to have.


Maybe because asshats are trying to defund public education.  Just a guess.
 
2014-05-07 04:12:14 AM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: /may you live to sue my incompetent ass


Good for you. Do what's right. I will back you up 100%.
 
2014-05-07 04:54:32 AM
I was certified for CPR 3 times in high school, in the 80s.

I was re-certified at work a few months ago, so they'd have someone on site that knows it, and I work alone 3rd shift.  Defibrillators were mentioned, as the new ones talk the user through what to do.
 
2014-05-07 05:06:24 AM
I just got my CPR certification renewed, and they finally added AED (those automatic defibs things) to it.  It was kind of neat.  You open it up, and it starts talking to you, telling you exactly how to use it.
 
2014-05-07 05:20:24 AM
Americans want everything, but are willing to actually pay for almost nothing.
 
2014-05-07 05:30:32 AM
If we taught them prayer, we wouldn't need to teach "scientific" things like CPR. God cares for His obedient children.
 
2014-05-07 05:54:54 AM
We have people wanting to actually give guns to kids, but teaching them how to save lives? That's crazy talk.
 
2014-05-07 05:55:41 AM

cretinbob: Ambivalence: Most of what I learned is way out of date now

Nope, You still stop bleeding the same way. CPR itself has changed because it's mostly useless, but they keep trying to figure out ways to make it work better. Now, it's all compressions, don't stop giving compressions.
We'll see what they do in another 10 years.


I was taught CPR in high school two years ago. They told me to do a ratio of 30:2. 30 chest compressions to two breaths.
 
2014-05-07 06:07:26 AM

Richard C Stanford: cretinbob: Ambivalence: Most of what I learned is way out of date now

Nope, You still stop bleeding the same way. CPR itself has changed because it's mostly useless, but they keep trying to figure out ways to make it work better. Now, it's all compressions, don't stop giving compressions.
We'll see what they do in another 10 years.

I was taught CPR in high school two years ago. They told me to do a ratio of 30:2. 30 chest compressions to two breaths.


Thats because he's wrong.

It *IS* 30:2.

Source: i do cpr on an average of 3 people a week as an ER nurse.
 
2014-05-07 06:12:43 AM
The more you eat the more you fart:

Incorrect. It is 30 to 2.

Here's a dirty little secret: we INTENTIONALLY break ribs when doing cpr.

Most states have a "good samaritin law" that says you cannot be sued for taking prudent action.

This law covers breaking ribs while doing cpr.



Two things are clear:
1. You are talking out of your ass.
2. While doing said talking you are demonstrating that you don't know a damned thing about healthcare, Emergency Medicine, or current CPR recommendations.

IF you actually work in an ER, I wouldn't want to be a patient there. Of course, you probably don't get any closer to patients than the end of your mop handle.
 
2014-05-07 06:17:57 AM

HotWingAgenda: A CPR course was mandatory when I was in high school. But that was like a decade and a half ago, back when the Earth was flat and people thought California was an island in the Pacific.


We took it as part of 10th grade health class.  As I recall, the teacher said we were certified for a year.  I never got re-certed though.

You need a class to learn how to use a defibrillator?   I thought those things were designed for anyone who was NOT certified in CPR?
 
2014-05-07 06:21:52 AM

UseLessHuman: Americans want everything, but are willing to actually pay for almost nothing.


other than the fact that our education spending is higher than every other country on both a real and percentage of GNP basis, this statement is totally accurate.  And for healthcare, the US spends about  2x the next highest country.
 
2014-05-07 06:39:33 AM
We had the fire department come in and train us how to do CPR as part of our 10th grade health class, and that was in "not going to spend a dime on education" Alabama.  We also got our boaters licenses as part of our driver's ed classes the same year.  In both instances, the teacher of the class did all the legwork her/him self and just incorporated the material into the class (and I'm pretty sure both were free of charge for the class). Sometimes all it takes for you as a student to be able to do cool things in school is to have a teacher that is willing to spend a little time to make it happen.
 
2014-05-07 06:43:12 AM

cretinbob: Teach them the statistics and what happens to a body that has CPR performed on it, then ask them if they want it done to them.


20-30% Survival to discharge rate with properly performed prearrival CPR and AED use in adult patients who arrest from a cardiac cause, versus a 100% chance of death.

Sounds good to me.

love-m'-beer: 1. You are talking out of your ass.


What are you talking about. The Ratio IS 30:2 if you are a healthcare provider in an adult patient, and you WILL break ribs in everyone except for the very young. In fact, if you DON'T break a rib in an elderly patient, you're not doing it right.

The only times compressions are done continuously are if A) You have a mechanical CPR device in place, such as AutoPulse or Lucas-II, or B) You have a secure airway in place, such as a King LT-D, LMA, or preferably an Endotracheal tube. The 2010 guidelines also state that intubation is a secondary consideration after IV access is established and should not interrupt the 30:2 cycle.

cretinbob: Nope, You still stop bleeding the same way. CPR itself has changed because it's mostly useless, but they keep trying to figure out ways to make it work better. Now, it's all compressions, don't stop giving compressions.
We'll see what they do in another 10 years.


It's not all compressions, unless you're a layperson who witnesses an adult arrest from a primarily cardiac cause - the ONLY time hands-only CPR is indicated before the arrival of EMS resources. Outside of an MI-induced or arrhythmia-induced cardiac arrest, CPR becomes far more complex as it focuses on buying time to reverse the causes.

And it's not another 10 years. BLS, PALS, and ACLS are both due for revisions next year. Due to the recent research into passive ventilation during compressions and reduction of intrathoracic pressure to improve bloodflow, you're going to see CPR adjuncts taking more and more of a place in resuscitation.
 
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