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(STLToday)   Chesterfield, MO City Council shocked to discover that the more tax revenue they generate, the more they have to pass on to the county tax pool. Clearly, the only answer is to secede from the county   (stltoday.com) divider line 49
    More: Stupid, St. Louis County, city councils, sales taxes, Wildwood, property taxes, county, mayors, local options  
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1063 clicks; posted to Politics » on 06 May 2014 at 12:07 PM (21 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



49 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-05-06 07:29:00 AM
Perhaps they should also ask why they're spending $60K a year to a former state rep. to do nothing.
 
2014-05-06 07:49:32 AM
I'm going to guess that Chesterfield is mainly white, as is St. Charles county.
 
2014-05-06 10:00:13 AM

clancifer: I'm going to guess that Chesterfield is mainly white, as is St. Charles county.


i.imgur.com
Chesterfield is roughly located between "Dbags with Private Jets" and "Republicans in Japanese Cars" to the East-West, and goes about as far south as "Wealthy Retirees" and "Todd Akin Supporters"

Large version of map
 
2014-05-06 12:10:19 PM
In other words, a bunch of wealthy people live there who don't want their tax money going to the poors.
 
M-G
2014-05-06 12:10:45 PM
Never mind that they wouldn't have all of that 'economic development' without a heavily leveed flood plain, the Interstate highway improvements, or all of those county-maintained roads.
 
2014-05-06 12:14:05 PM
Chesterfield's major developments have all occurred on a flood plain. They didn't mind getting other people's tax money to build the flood wall that made all that development possible.

When that wall fails, which it eventually will, they will be asking for a bailout from other people.

Bunch of privileged hypocrites.
 
2014-05-06 12:15:43 PM
"The existing sales tax pool law punishes cities that try to encourage economic development and rewards cities that stifle economic development," Flachsbart wrote in a letter to state Rep. Jill Schupp.

"Presently, the more successful Chesterfield is in stimulating economic development, the higher the percentage of taxes taken from Chesterfield and given to others," Flachsbart wrote. "At the same time, Chesterfield continues to have higher expenses for public works and for police, driven by increased economic development."


Help me understand the double-speak here. Essentially, they want to throw around a bunch of tax breaks/incentives to attract businesses to their city, and then have the state pick up the tab?
 
2014-05-06 12:16:56 PM
That map is fantastic.

As much as I agree with the characterization I have to admit:  The county as a unit of government just needs to go the fark away.  It made sense when the closest other unit of management was a state government that convened twice a year when farmers could spare a day.  Now, though? It's just a resource suck.  There are probably rural areas where it still makes sense, especially out west, but I'd bet those are few and (literally) far between.
 
2014-05-06 12:19:04 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Chesterfield is roughly located between "Dbags with Private Jets" and "Republicans in Japanese Cars" to the East-West, and goes about as far south as "Wealthy Retirees" and "Todd Akin Supporters"


So Eagleton then?

www.esquire.com
 
2014-05-06 12:24:40 PM

IvyLady: That map is fantastic.

As much as I agree with the characterization I have to admit:  The county as a unit of government just needs to go the fark away.  It made sense when the closest other unit of management was a state government that convened twice a year when farmers could spare a day.  Now, though? It's just a resource suck.  There are probably rural areas where it still makes sense, especially out west, but I'd bet those are few and (literally) far between.


That is an awful idea based on an erroneous justification.
 
2014-05-06 12:28:49 PM
"In his letter, Flachsbart pointed to Wildwood, a pool city, saying that city "does not encourage economic development, at least not much of it, and Wildwood benefits from Chesterfield's success by receiving almost $3 million more from the sales tax pool than they contribute to it."
-FTA

If Chesterfield recieves funds from other counties what is stopping those counties from saying "Can we have it back, please?"

//I can see why the state legislature would not want change the sales tax distribution system.
 
2014-05-06 12:34:40 PM

jayhawk88: "The existing sales tax pool law punishes cities that try to encourage economic development and rewards cities that stifle economic development," Flachsbart wrote in a letter to state Rep. Jill Schupp.

"Presently, the more successful Chesterfield is in stimulating economic development, the higher the percentage of taxes taken from Chesterfield and given to others," Flachsbart wrote. "At the same time, Chesterfield continues to have higher expenses for public works and for police, driven by increased economic development."

Help me understand the double-speak here. Essentially, they want to throw around a bunch of tax breaks/incentives to attract businesses to their city, and then have the state pick up the tab?


No, he's just blindly repeating Republican anti-tax mantras.

See, under the current rules, if a new business opens up within city limits, then the city has to share the sales tax revenue from that business with the county, instead of keeping 100% for itself.

If a city cannot keep all of the new money, then there is no reason to try to bring in any new business at all - because keeping 85% of the tax revenue actually makes it a net loss for the city.  It's basically the same reason why you should tell your boss to fark off the next time he tries to give you a raise that you put you in the next tax bracket.
 
2014-05-06 12:35:40 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: clancifer: I'm going to guess that Chesterfield is mainly white, as is St. Charles county.

[i.imgur.com image 850x386]
Chesterfield is roughly located between "Dbags with Private Jets" and "Republicans in Japanese Cars" to the East-West, and goes about as far south as "Wealthy Retirees" and "Todd Akin Supporters"

Large version of map


Heh.. funny map.  I live in 'Probably Black People' in the upper right of the map.  Yep, it is a middle class neighborhood with an African American majority.
 
2014-05-06 12:36:40 PM

IvyLady: As much as I agree with the characterization I have to admit:  The county as a unit of government just needs to go the fark away.  It made sense when the closest other unit of management was a state government that convened twice a year when farmers could spare a day.  Now, though? It's just a resource suck.  There are probably rural areas where it still makes sense, especially out west, but I'd bet those are few and (literally) far between.


l don't know how it works elsewhere, but at least out my way (in the wild west of Southern CA) the county runs things like the Registrar of Voters, Health Department, collects property taxes, etc.  I would imagine that allowing the county to run those things is probably cheaper than each city having their own department.
 
2014-05-06 12:47:00 PM

clancifer: I'm going to guess that Chesterfield is mainly white, as is St. Charles county.



Not only that, there is evidence they are the best for you.
www.refinedguy.com
It's science!
 
2014-05-06 12:54:44 PM
Lol at that map.

I'm getting a kick out of these replies. Back in the 80s, I lived in the 63017 and was in youth group with the Barry Flachsbart's kids, who are now in their 40s. If you read Barry's comments, they are fairly reasonable. I'm Facebook friends with one of them still, but he went through the looking glass of Libertarianism and is really far gone. He does support marriage equality, but he herps the derp with the best of them otherwise.

/Shout out to Trinity Lutheran Church, aka the "cash register" church
//Parkway West, Class of '88

///Left for California and never looked back
 
2014-05-06 01:08:15 PM

Karac: It's basically the same reason why you should tell your boss to fark off the next time he tries to give you a raise that you put you in the next tax bracket.


img2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2014-05-06 01:16:29 PM

IvyLady: That map is fantastic.

As much as I agree with the characterization I have to admit:  The county as a unit of government just needs to go the fark away.  It made sense when the closest other unit of management was a state government that convened twice a year when farmers could spare a day.  Now, though? It's just a resource suck.  There are probably rural areas where it still makes sense, especially out west, but I'd bet those are few and (literally) far between.


Growing up in MA, I always just thought of counties as administrative units of the state.  When I was older and found out that they ran the courts and jails, seemed a bit quaint and wasteful, but not a big deal.  Then I traveled to Florida/the South.  Sheriff's deputies are *real*.  There's such a thing as unincorporated towns.  Etc.  Makes no sense to me either.
 
2014-05-06 01:23:56 PM

Karac: It's basically the same reason why you should tell your boss to fark off the next time he tries to give you a raise that you put you in the next tax bracket.


I have a strong suspicion that no one ever explained to you how a progressive tax structure works. I'm sure your boss appreciates you turning down those raises, though; leaves more for the others.
 
2014-05-06 01:25:17 PM

blasterz: Karac: It's basically the same reason why you should tell your boss to fark off the next time he tries to give you a raise that you put you in the next tax bracket.

I have a strong suspicion that no one ever explained to you how a progressive tax structure works. I'm sure your boss appreciates you turning down those raises, though; leaves more for the others.


I'm sure he understands.. he's just saying it's a similar thing to the situation in the article.
 
2014-05-06 01:26:27 PM

ladodger34: l don't know how it works elsewhere, but at least out my way (in the wild west of Southern CA) the county runs things like the Registrar of Voters, Health Department, collects property taxes, etc.  I would imagine that allowing the county to run those things is probably cheaper than each city having their own department.


Around here, the county handles the prisons allowing Barney to jail Otis the drunk over night.    The county maintains the larger roads in 1 miles grids leaving the city to care for the residential roads.  I think the counties run the major airports and community colleges as well.  There is a bigger push to get the counties to take over the school systems that are largely run by the city.
 
2014-05-06 01:26:40 PM

fenianfark: Chesterfield's major developments have all occurred on a flood plain. They didn't mind getting other people's tax money to build the flood wall that made all that development possible.

When that wall fails, which it eventually will, they will be asking for a bailout from other people.

Bunch of privileged hypocrites.


You can let them drown. That fixes the problem for a good while.

Same solution I had to a local (Indiana) tax issue on consolidating city and county for taxes: Tell the fire department to not put out fires past the imaginary line that is city limits.

"We're sorry sir, but you need to wait for the county volunteer group. They should be here in about 40 minutes. But rest assured, if that fire goes past this sign, we will put it out"
 
2014-05-06 01:31:49 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Large version of map

IvyLady: That map is fantastic.


Poking Google a few times turns up a blog with other cities.
 
2014-05-06 01:34:05 PM
It does seem to be a logical response if you think your city would have a better ROI that way.
 
2014-05-06 01:41:16 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: clancifer: I'm going to guess that Chesterfield is mainly white, as is St. Charles county.

[i.imgur.com image 850x386]
Chesterfield is roughly located between "Dbags with Private Jets" and "Republicans in Japanese Cars" to the East-West, and goes about as far south as "Wealthy Retirees" and "Todd Akin Supporters"

Large version of map



So, is there a version of that map that shows the rest of the city?

/travel to St. Louis for work
//Have been to "Bad Drivers with 99.1 JOY bumper stickers" multiple times
///Also just south of "More Hip Than You"
 
2014-05-06 01:43:00 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: fenianfark: Chesterfield's major developments have all occurred on a flood plain. They didn't mind getting other people's tax money to build the flood wall that made all that development possible.

When that wall fails, which it eventually will, they will be asking for a bailout from other people.

Bunch of privileged hypocrites.

You can let them drown. That fixes the problem for a good while.

Same solution I had to a local (Indiana) tax issue on consolidating city and county for taxes: Tell the fire department to not put out fires past the imaginary line that is city limits.

"We're sorry sir, but you need to wait for the county volunteer group. They should be here in about 40 minutes. But rest assured, if that fire goes past this sign, we will put it out"


Dude, your fire department is missing a revenue generating opportunity. Inside the city no charge, outside the city ... let's see 6-12 firemen at $200 dollars an hour each, plus two trucks at $1200 dollars an hour each, a fire Chief at $400 dollars an hour, who arrived in an official vehicle which you must rent for $600 dollars an hour, a fire Marshal at $600 dollars an hour, plus his vehicle which is an additional $600 dollars an hour. Then there is the $9 dollars a gallon cost for the water, the hose rental fees, oxygen recharge fee, and of course the City/County coordination fees.

Not to mention if an ambulance or other emergency services are needed all charged to the property owner outside the city limits.
 
2014-05-06 01:44:04 PM

Almet: Grand_Moff_Joseph: clancifer: I'm going to guess that Chesterfield is mainly white, as is St. Charles county.

[i.imgur.com image 850x386]
Chesterfield is roughly located between "Dbags with Private Jets" and "Republicans in Japanese Cars" to the East-West, and goes about as far south as "Wealthy Retirees" and "Todd Akin Supporters"

Large version of map


So, is there a version of that map that shows the rest of the city?

/travel to St. Louis for work
//Have been to "Bad Drivers with 99.1 JOY bumper stickers" multiple times
///Also just south of "More Hip Than You"


If there is I hope the labelled the east side, you East St. Louis etc... with Here there be Dragons.
 
2014-05-06 01:56:34 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: clancifer: I'm going to guess that Chesterfield is mainly white, as is St. Charles county.

[i.imgur.com image 850x386]
Chesterfield is roughly located between "Dbags with Private Jets" and "Republicans in Japanese Cars" to the East-West, and goes about as far south as "Wealthy Retirees" and "Todd Akin Supporters"

Large version of map


That map is beautiful.
 
2014-05-06 01:57:11 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: fenianfark: Chesterfield's major developments have all occurred on a flood plain. They didn't mind getting other people's tax money to build the flood wall that made all that development possible.

When that wall fails, which it eventually will, they will be asking for a bailout from other people.

Bunch of privileged hypocrites.

You can let them drown. That fixes the problem for a good while.

Same solution I had to a local (Indiana) tax issue on consolidating city and county for taxes: Tell the fire department to not put out fires past the imaginary line that is city limits.

"We're sorry sir, but you need to wait for the county volunteer group. They should be here in about 40 minutes. But rest assured, if that fire goes past this sign, we will put it out"


Are you in the Evansville area?
 
2014-05-06 02:11:37 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: "We're sorry sir, but you need to wait for the county volunteer group. They should be here in about 40 minutes. But rest assured, if that fire goes past this sign, we will put it out"


I know in Indiana at least, there are tons of people who move out of the city limits because OMG taxes, and then they biatch that they don't get good public services. Waaa, they want to charge me for a library card and the snow plow doesn't come here and no one fixes the potholes and I want more free stuff.
 
2014-05-06 02:15:07 PM
Fark Chesterfield. I was stuck in standstill traffic for over an hour there this weekend because they didn't plan ahead for all the traffic coming into the air show, the baseball tournament,the outlet mall and to avoid I-64 construction. They didn't bother to get the police out there to deal with the problem until it was far too late to do anything about it.

That they can benefit from siphoning off businesses and wealthy retirees from the inner reaches of St. Louis County over the last twenty years and then try take the money and run is exactly the sort of self-centered, entitled attitude that people in the St. Louis area associate with residents of Chesterfield.
 
2014-05-06 02:19:09 PM

Alphax: Grand_Moff_Joseph: clancifer: I'm going to guess that Chesterfield is mainly white, as is St. Charles county.

[i.imgur.com image 850x386]
Chesterfield is roughly located between "Dbags with Private Jets" and "Republicans in Japanese Cars" to the East-West, and goes about as far south as "Wealthy Retirees" and "Todd Akin Supporters"

Large version of map

Heh.. funny map.  I live in 'Probably Black People' in the upper right of the map.  Yep, it is a middle class neighborhood with an African American majority.


I'm in O'Fallon, so I'm off the map corner labeled "lots of white people"

/lulz
 
2014-05-06 02:22:52 PM

Almet: /travel to St. Louis for work


oh you do?  Let me know next time you're in...perhaps we can get a a beer!
 
2014-05-06 02:25:25 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Alphax: Grand_Moff_Joseph: clancifer: I'm going to guess that Chesterfield is mainly white, as is St. Charles county.

[i.imgur.com image 850x386]
Chesterfield is roughly located between "Dbags with Private Jets" and "Republicans in Japanese Cars" to the East-West, and goes about as far south as "Wealthy Retirees" and "Todd Akin Supporters"

Large version of map

Heh.. funny map.  I live in 'Probably Black People' in the upper right of the map.  Yep, it is a middle class neighborhood with an African American majority.

I'm in O'Fallon, so I'm off the map corner labeled "lots of white people"

/lulz


Sure that's not 'Sprawl that makes West County look good'?
 
2014-05-06 02:25:39 PM

Karac: No, he's just blindly repeating Republican anti-tax mantras.


blindly repeating things?  Heh, sounds a lot like the lectures I heard him give in college.

/nice guy
//boring lectures
 
2014-05-06 02:26:55 PM

Alphax: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Alphax: Grand_Moff_Joseph: clancifer: I'm going to guess that Chesterfield is mainly white, as is St. Charles county.

[i.imgur.com image 850x386]
Chesterfield is roughly located between "Dbags with Private Jets" and "Republicans in Japanese Cars" to the East-West, and goes about as far south as "Wealthy Retirees" and "Todd Akin Supporters"

Large version of map

Heh.. funny map.  I live in 'Probably Black People' in the upper right of the map.  Yep, it is a middle class neighborhood with an African American majority.

I'm in O'Fallon, so I'm off the map corner labeled "lots of white people"

/lulz

Sure that's not 'Sprawl that makes West County look good'?


lulz.  O'Fallon's pretty nice, at least for the wife and I.  We're near the TR Hughes ballpark, so nice neighborhood, nothing fancy, good neighbors and such.

Commuting to Clayton sucks balls, but it is what it is.
 
2014-05-06 02:28:37 PM

Karac: It's basically the same reason why you should tell your boss to fark off the next time he tries to give you a raise that you put you in the next tax bracket.


img.fark.net
 
2014-05-06 02:30:53 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: lulz.  O'Fallon's pretty nice, at least for the wife and I.  We're near the TR Hughes ballpark, so nice neighborhood, nothing fancy, good neighbors and such.

Commuting to Clayton sucks balls, but it is what it is.


I've got a mere 6 mile commute to Westport.. so I'm buying gas about once a month.
 
2014-05-06 02:51:21 PM

patrick767: In other words, a bunch of wealthy people live there who don't want their tax money going to the poors.


Yep. Sounds like Chesterfield alright.
 
2014-05-06 02:56:04 PM

secularsage: Fark Chesterfield. I was stuck in standstill traffic for over an hour there this weekend because they didn't plan ahead for all the traffic coming into the air show, the baseball tournament,the outlet mall and to avoid I-64 construction. They didn't bother to get the police out there to deal with the problem until it was far too late to do anything about it.

That they can benefit from siphoning off businesses and wealthy retirees from the inner reaches of St. Louis County over the last twenty years and then try take the money and run is exactly the sort of self-centered, entitled attitude that people in the St. Louis area associate with residents of Chesterfield.


THIS!

At least the County made a half-assed effort to control the traffic. Chesterfield did jack squat.
 
2014-05-06 03:15:06 PM
Maybe if Romney was elected they could run govt like a corporation (remember that pitch?)

The extra money could be executive salaries or bonus then some for shareholder dividends.
 
2014-05-06 03:36:08 PM

Xhan: Karac: It's basically the same reason why you should tell your boss to fark off the next time he tries to give you a raise that you put you in the next tax bracket.

[img2.wikia.nocookie.net image 604x404]


Grand_Moff_Joseph: Karac: It's basically the same reason why you should tell your boss to fark off the next time he tries to give you a raise that you put you in the next tax bracket.

[img.fark.net image 160x160]


There's a strain of conservatives who believe that if you get a raise which bumps you into a higher tax bracket, then all of your income is taxed at that higher level - resulting in a net decrease in take home pay.  The flaw in that thought is of course that only the amount over that tax bracket level is taxed at the higher percentage.

This guy seems to think that if a new strip mall is built in his town, which would bring in $20 million in taxes, that his town would end up losing money because a few percent will go to the county.  Therefore he thinks that "The existing sales tax pool law punishes cities that try to encourage economic development and rewards cities that stifle economic development".

He thinks new business = higher tax base = lower tax revenue.  Plus a bit of good old 'freeloading welfare queen' thrown in for good measure.
 
2014-05-06 03:51:30 PM

Karac: Xhan: Karac: It's basically the same reason why you should tell your boss to fark off the next time he tries to give you a raise that you put you in the next tax bracket.

[img2.wikia.nocookie.net image 604x404]

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Karac: It's basically the same reason why you should tell your boss to fark off the next time he tries to give you a raise that you put you in the next tax bracket.

[img.fark.net image 160x160]

There's a strain of conservatives who believe that if you get a raise which bumps you into a higher tax bracket, then all of your income is taxed at that higher level - resulting in a net decrease in take home pay.  The flaw in that thought is of course that only the amount over that tax bracket level is taxed at the higher percentage.

This guy seems to think that if a new strip mall is built in his town, which would bring in $20 million in taxes, that his town would end up losing money because a few percent will go to the county.  Therefore he thinks that "The existing sales tax pool law punishes cities that try to encourage economic development and rewards cities that stifle economic development".

He thinks new business = higher tax base = lower tax revenue.  Plus a bit of good old 'freeloading welfare queen' thrown in for good measure.


Oh, OK. I thought you were actually espousing that idea. I've met people who think that. They get weirdly defensive and frequently offended when you kindly try to point out how taxes actually work, as if they're heavily emotionally invested in being wrong about it, similar to how a crackpot will get offended if you tell them the government probably didn't actually inject them with nanobots.
 
2014-05-06 03:54:16 PM

Xhan: Oh, OK. I thought you were actually espousing that idea.


No, definitely not.  I thought the line "he's blindly repeating Republican tax mantras" would be enough to indicate that I realized he was wrong, but now I know to do better next time.
 
2014-05-06 03:58:38 PM

Karac: Xhan: Oh, OK. I thought you were actually espousing that idea.

No, definitely not.  I thought the line "he's blindly repeating Republican tax mantras" would be enough to indicate that I realized he was wrong, but now I know to do better next time.


my bad as well...mis-read the earlier post's intention.  :(
 
2014-05-06 05:15:16 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Alphax: Grand_Moff_Joseph: clancifer: I'm going to guess that Chesterfield is mainly white, as is St. Charles county.

[i.imgur.com image 850x386]
Chesterfield is roughly located between "Dbags with Private Jets" and "Republicans in Japanese Cars" to the East-West, and goes about as far south as "Wealthy Retirees" and "Todd Akin Supporters"

Large version of map

Heh.. funny map.  I live in 'Probably Black People' in the upper right of the map.  Yep, it is a middle class neighborhood with an African American majority.

I'm in O'Fallon, so I'm off the map corner labeled "lots of white people"

/lulz


I used to live out that way off Tom Ginnever before they built the ball park. Now I'm over near the river. The map is just about perfect.

/the airshow traffic was unreal
/sigh chesterfield should stay on that side of the river
 
2014-05-06 05:19:55 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: clancifer: I'm going to guess that Chesterfield is mainly white, as is St. Charles county.

[i.imgur.com image 850x386]
Chesterfield is roughly located between "Dbags with Private Jets" and "Republicans in Japanese Cars" to the East-West, and goes about as far south as "Wealthy Retirees" and "Todd Akin Supporters"

Large version of map


Do they have maps like that for other places?  It looks really useful.
 
2014-05-06 06:20:25 PM

Ambivalence: Grand_Moff_Joseph: clancifer: I'm going to guess that Chesterfield is mainly white, as is St. Charles county.

[i.imgur.com image 850x386]
Chesterfield is roughly located between "Dbags with Private Jets" and "Republicans in Japanese Cars" to the East-West, and goes about as far south as "Wealthy Retirees" and "Todd Akin Supporters"

Large version of map

Do they have maps like that for other places?  It looks really useful.


Eeyup!
 
2014-05-06 11:31:32 PM

Almet: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: fenianfark: Chesterfield's major developments have all occurred on a flood plain. They didn't mind getting other people's tax money to build the flood wall that made all that development possible.

When that wall fails, which it eventually will, they will be asking for a bailout from other people.

Bunch of privileged hypocrites.

You can let them drown. That fixes the problem for a good while.

Same solution I had to a local (Indiana) tax issue on consolidating city and county for taxes: Tell the fire department to not put out fires past the imaginary line that is city limits.

"We're sorry sir, but you need to wait for the county volunteer group. They should be here in about 40 minutes. But rest assured, if that fire goes past this sign, we will put it out"

Are you in the Evansville area?


I was until about May of last year. I saw the wonderful derp around the 2012 consolidation vote, especially on the school boards.

"Do you want BUREAUCRATS in Indianapolis deciding how to educate your children?"

*looks around*

"Fark yes I do"
 
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