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(The Daily Beast)   Number of careers available to Christians "is quickly shrinking as homosexuals seek opportunities to wreck the personal business and career of any Christian who declines to support the gay lifestyle." This is bad news for florists   (thedailybeast.com) divider line 349
    More: Obvious, LGBT culture, prospective parliamentary candidate, gays and lesbians, Pippa Middleton  
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10053 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 May 2014 at 1:40 PM (32 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-04 08:49:38 PM  

mikefinch: namegoeshere: They are in no way contributing to the sacrament of marriage. They aren't marrying the couple. There is no cake in a wedding ceremony. They're baking a cake for the party after the ceremony. They're baking the same cake they bake for every other  couple. They are specifically denying that same cake to the gay couple. And again, it has fark all to do with your kosher deli example.

Lets say i hunt allot and i have a great picture of myself stabbing a deer in the face... And i take it in to a framing shop owned by a PETA ultravegan... and the guy politely tells me he cant open his business towards something he feels glorifies killing animals... Its against his values...

Is he a bigot?


This also is not an equivalent example. If the business owner refused to frame your facial stabbing pic because you were gay hunting, but agreed to frame the exact same pic for other customers who were straight hunting, then it would be a similar situation. If the bakery owner was offended by wedding cakes in general, and refused to bake wedding cakes for all customers regardless of sexual orientation, then again, it would be a similar situation. The problem comes from agreeing to provide a service for some customers and denying the identical service to others based on their sexual orientation.
 
2014-05-04 08:50:46 PM  

mikefinch: namegoeshere: They are in no way contributing to the sacrament of marriage. They aren't marrying the couple. There is no cake in a wedding ceremony. They're baking a cake for the party after the ceremony. They're baking the same cake they bake for every other  couple. They are specifically denying that same cake to the gay couple. And again, it has fark all to do with your kosher deli example.

Lets say i hunt allot and i have a great picture of myself stabbing a deer in the face... And i take it in to a framing shop owned by a PETA ultravegan... and the guy politely tells me he cant open his business towards something he feels glorifies killing animals... Its against his values...

Is he a bigot?


Also, if you were hunting allot, why were you stabbing deer?
 
2014-05-04 08:51:45 PM  

moogoob: Bob Robert: Fafai: Wow. I've been posting for over a year and have made no effort to hide my sexuality here on fark. But you just know everything about others' motivation more than they do, don't you? You're the king of puttign words in others' mouths (often changin their meaning 180 degrees) in order to win simplistic binary arguments. I've watched you do it to numerous people in your two weeks here.


Your trolling is really getting desperate here. If you don't see the problem with supporting a business that wants to take away your basic human rights then there is no hope left for you. Keep white knighting for the conservative trolls, you're doing God's work.

I'm pregnant


HA! Filtowned. :p
 
2014-05-04 08:52:16 PM  

Bertuccio: namegoeshere: ricbach229: notto: ricbach229: ]

The guy pushed out at Mozilla was fired for donating to a prop 8 support group that had their donor list illegally released.

This is absolutely untrue and you are spreading a lie.  The donor list was legally released by the California Secretary of state as mandated by law.  Quit  spreading lies.

Thanks for being an asshole while calling me a liar over a mistake.  I didn't realize California had a $100 threshold for disclosure of donations to non politicians.

I notice you didn't correct me on the private phone call Stirlings had or the bakers case where they are essentially a kosher deli being forced to serve an unkosher cake.

Please explain this. What makes a kosher deli kosher is not their refusal to serve a particular customer. It is the list of ingredients that they do not use in their food. What ingredient is included in Gay Cake that is forbidden in Christian cake? Because that would be the only way the two situations would be at all the same.

Gay ingredients... Cumin?

Maybe someone else can do better.


GIS for "gay cake" :

www.cakeandart.com/hot

It's really pretty : )
 
2014-05-04 08:53:57 PM  

mikefinch: namegoeshere: They are in no way contributing to the sacrament of marriage. They aren't marrying the couple. There is no cake in a wedding ceremony. They're baking a cake for the party after the ceremony. They're baking the same cake they bake for every other  couple. They are specifically denying that same cake to the gay couple. And again, it has fark all to do with your kosher deli example.

Lets say i hunt allot and i have a great picture of myself stabbing a deer in the face... And i take it in to a framing shop owned by a PETA ultravegan... and the guy politely tells me he cant open his business towards something he feels glorifies killing animals... Its against his values...

Is he a bigot?


Maybe, maybe not - but you would certainly be reasonable to take it as such, and withhold your business from him in future, and advise your associates to do the same.
Whether very many others would agree with you is another matter altogether.
 
2014-05-04 08:56:39 PM  
Warning: GIS for "gay camo" did not go so well...
 
2014-05-04 08:58:31 PM  

mikefinch: namegoeshere: They are in no way contributing to the sacrament of marriage. They aren't marrying the couple. There is no cake in a wedding ceremony. They're baking a cake for the party after the ceremony. They're baking the same cake they bake for every other  couple. They are specifically denying that same cake to the gay couple. And again, it has fark all to do with your kosher deli example.

Lets say i hunt allot and i have a great picture of myself stabbing a deer in the face... And i take it in to a framing shop owned by a PETA ultravegan... and the guy politely tells me he cant open his business towards something he feels glorifies killing animals... Its against his values...

Is he a bigot?


Your picture is not a person. If he refused to frame a picture for you because of who you are then that might be similar. A baker can say he wont bake fruitcake.
 
2014-05-04 08:59:47 PM  

Baz744: jso2897: Let's put this in perspective. Let us suppose that our hypothetical subject is not a homophobic bigot, but a pedophile. Let us further suppose that this person frequently expresses the sentiment that having sex with small children is a great thing, and that people should do it more often. Let us further suppose that he perhaps publishes a blog that also expresses these sentiments. Let us even further supposes that he makes frequent donations to NAMBLA, and is unapologetic about it.
Now - who here wishes to do business with, associate with, work with, or employ this person? What? None of you?
Quelle surprise.
That's because it's UNACCEPTABLE.
Period.
Well, the only thing that is changing is that bigotry regarding innate characteristics is joining that short list of views that are not acceptable among the civilized. Nothing else has changed. There have always been things one could not say without severe consequences. It's just the things themselves that change, over time.
It's too bad some people don't like bigotry being add to the list - but, time goes on, and things change.
Society is not becoming any less tolerant of transgressive views than it ever has - probably a bit more so.
Some people just think it is, because views they are comfortable with are becoming unacceptable.

It really never occurred to me how strongly analogous are the anti-gay bigot and pedophiles. Both the anti-gay bigot and pedophiles hold deviant sexual views that, when expressed, are harmful to the mental health of children. Optimally, both the anti-gay bigot and pedophiles would be denied contact with children of any kind at all.

Thank you for presenting that angle on this. Always exciting to get a fresh perspective.


THAT'S what you got out of what I said?
Jesus H. Christ - i give up.
 
2014-05-04 09:00:04 PM  

namegoeshere: This also is not an equivalent example. If the business owner refused to frame your facial stabbing pic because you were gay hunting, but agreed to frame the exact same pic for other customers who were straight hunting, then it would be a similar situation. If the bakery owner was offended by wedding cakes in general, and refused to bake wedding cakes for all customers regardless of sexual orientation, then again, it would be a similar situation. The problem comes from agreeing to provide a service for some customers and denying the identical service to others based on their sexual orientation.


No. You are wrong. The frames are like the cake and the photo is like the little statue on the top of the cake. The problem is you think its ok to fight bigotry by being a bigot against bigots.

The only way we can ever stop the hate is to stop it within ourselves. Just take a deep breath, relax, and take your money somewhere else.
 
2014-05-04 09:04:21 PM  

Enemabag Jones: It is called keeping your personal life personal, and your business life outside of your religious life.

And if you don't want to put two grooms on the top of a cake then don't open a bakery.


This is bullshiat.
 
2014-05-04 09:07:28 PM  

mikefinch: namegoeshere: This also is not an equivalent example. If the business owner refused to frame your facial stabbing pic because you were gay hunting, but agreed to frame the exact same pic for other customers who were straight hunting, then it would be a similar situation. If the bakery owner was offended by wedding cakes in general, and refused to bake wedding cakes for all customers regardless of sexual orientation, then again, it would be a similar situation. The problem comes from agreeing to provide a service for some customers and denying the identical service to others based on their sexual orientation.

No. You are wrong. The frames are like the cake and the photo is like the little statue on the top of the cake. The problem is you think its ok to fight bigotry by being a bigot against bigots.

The only way we can ever stop the hate is to stop it within ourselves. Just take a deep breath, relax, and take your money somewhere else.


Let's see if I get this straight.  Refusing to patronize a business because they won't serve certain types of customers is being bigoted toward bigots, so instead we should chose to patronize a different business.  I don't think you've thought your cunning argument all the way through.
 
2014-05-04 09:08:56 PM  

namegoeshere: mikefinch: namegoeshere: They are in no way contributing to the sacrament of marriage. They aren't marrying the couple. There is no cake in a wedding ceremony. They're baking a cake for the party after the ceremony. They're baking the same cake they bake for every other  couple. They are specifically denying that same cake to the gay couple. And again, it has fark all to do with your kosher deli example.

Lets say i hunt allot and i have a great picture of myself stabbing a deer in the face... And i take it in to a framing shop owned by a PETA ultravegan... and the guy politely tells me he cant open his business towards something he feels glorifies killing animals... Its against his values...

Is he a bigot?

This also is not an equivalent example. If the business owner refused to frame your facial stabbing pic because you were gay hunting, but agreed to frame the exact same pic for other customers who were straight hunting, then it would be a similar situation. If the bakery owner was offended by wedding cakes in general, and refused to bake wedding cakes for all customers regardless of sexual orientation, then again, it would be a similar situation. The problem comes from agreeing to provide a service for some customers and denying the identical service to others based on their sexual orientation.


Ahhh. I just understood the right-wing fixation on the whole wedding cake thing. It's because your typical conservative lacks the intelligence to distinguish between "public commercial activities" and "private religious activities." When conservatives whine about being "forced at gunpoint to bake a cake for a homo," they think the next step is forcing churches to perform gay wedding ceremonies.
 
2014-05-04 09:11:39 PM  

ricbach229: The bakers sell a wedding cake as a contribution to the marriage sacrament.  Something as small as the male/female figure on the top of the cake is a part of it.  Now they're being forced to change the cakes decorations from what they artistically believe appropriate and sell to people who are not even committing the sacrament. In the case in Colorado the baker had made other products without any problem for the couple in question.  It was only when it came to the wedding cake that the baker said no, this is different, can't do it.



I've got bad news for you, sunshine.  Nobody gives a crap about your "sacraments."  If I murder your grandmother, and during the trial I say, "Sure, I killed her, but only when it got to the point that letting her live violated my religion's sacraments," I don't think that's gonna play to well in court.  Nor should it.

Generally I try to respect other people's religions, but when it comes to using it to justify discriminating against gays, or women (or any other group, really), then you can shove your precious sacraments up your ass.

Serve every customer equally regardless of race or creed or anything else, or pay the penalty for failing to do so, and tough cookies about your "sacraments."
 
2014-05-04 09:12:12 PM  

mikefinch: namegoeshere: This also is not an equivalent example. If the business owner refused to frame your facial stabbing pic because you were gay hunting, but agreed to frame the exact same pic for other customers who were straight hunting, then it would be a similar situation. If the bakery owner was offended by wedding cakes in general, and refused to bake wedding cakes for all customers regardless of sexual orientation, then again, it would be a similar situation. The problem comes from agreeing to provide a service for some customers and denying the identical service to others based on their sexual orientation.

No. You are wrong. The frames are like the cake and the photo is like the little statue on the top of the cake. The problem is you think its ok to fight bigotry by being a bigot against bigots.

The only way we can ever stop the hate is to stop it within ourselves. Just take a deep breath, relax, and take your money somewhere else.


Bullshiat. This had fark all to do with putting two man figures on top of a cake:

Mullins and Craig married in Massachussets and had originally gone to Masterpiece in July 2012 because they wanted to a cake for their wedding reception in Colorado. When Phillips refused, the pair went to the American Civil Liberties Union, which filed a complaint with the Colorado Civil Rights Commission (CCRC) on their behalf.
According to the complaint, Phillips told the couple that the store policy was to deny service to customers who wished to order baked goods for a same-sex wedding, based on his religious beliefs.
Phillips told the men, "I'll make you birthday cakes, shower cakes, sell you cookies and brownies, I just don't make cakes for same-sex weddings."

The store owner admits outright that he is denying a service, a wedding cake, toppers not an issue, the same wedding cake as he would happily make for a straight couple, to a gay couple only because they are a gay couple. No other reason.

It is not bigotry in the slightest to refuse to patronize a business because they refuse service based on sexual orientation. It is not religious persecution to refuse to patronize a business for this reason. So quit whining about how all those who would not give our dollars to a business who treats their customers so poorly are persecuting them for their beliefs. They are free to believe whatever they want. But when they base their business practices on these unpopular beliefs, they will not be magically immune to the consequences.
 
2014-05-04 09:13:50 PM  

Waldo Pepper: A Christian should be known by their actions especially in the business world. Taking care of all customers is the mark of a good Christian business.

What happen to judging a business of the quality and fairness of their product/service and not their beliefs.


When they make their private beliefs part of their public business, it becomes an issue.

I couldn't care less that the HobbyLobby owners are fundamentalists, even when they closed on Sundays (lots of business pick a day of the week to be closed)....but when they decided that they shouldn't have to follow the same rules as other businesses due to their private religious beliefs, it becomes an issue for me. Now I want to make sure that my money doesn't help to fund their efforts to obtain some sort of special treatment from the gov't due to religion. So I don't shop there. Don't care that the chik-fil-a folks are fundies or where they spent their money, until it became apparent that they were firing good employees when they were found to be gay. That isn't ok, and it brings their private beliefs into the public arena. So I no longer eat there either.

Your religious beliefs don't make you special. Deal with it.
 
2014-05-04 09:15:40 PM  

gaspode: mikefinch: namegoeshere: They are in no way contributing to the sacrament of marriage. They aren't marrying the couple. There is no cake in a wedding ceremony. They're baking a cake for the party after the ceremony. They're baking the same cake they bake for every other  couple. They are specifically denying that same cake to the gay couple. And again, it has fark all to do with your kosher deli example.

Lets say i hunt allot and i have a great picture of myself stabbing a deer in the face... And i take it in to a framing shop owned by a PETA ultravegan... and the guy politely tells me he cant open his business towards something he feels glorifies killing animals... Its against his values...

Is he a bigot?

Your picture is not a person. If he refused to frame a picture for you because of who you are then that might be similar. A baker can say he wont bake fruitcake.


agreed. Anytime a business refuses to take care of a customer and the reason given is "we don't want your kind in here" and "your kind" isn't something illegal that would be the problem.  

a business can turn away a type of business. a garage can refuse to work on a car that is beyond their ability or isn't worth working on. a barber can refuse to cut dirty lice infested hair, a dry cleaner can refuse to clean the KKK hood if they don't have the equipment that the hood will fit on.
 
2014-05-04 09:18:07 PM  

jso2897: THAT'S what you got out of what I said?
Jesus H. Christ - i give up.


No, that was me expanding on what you said. You analogized the expression of anti-gay views to the expression of pro-pedophile views to show that the expression of some views aren't acceptable in civilized society.

I thought that was a good analogy, so I expanded on it. I compared specific attributes anti-gay bigots and pedophiles have in common; to wit, holding of deviant views about sexuality, and danger to the mental health of children.
 
2014-05-04 09:19:34 PM  

namegoeshere: Fafai: Fafai: I'm with you. I'm as queer as a $3

Fafai: /and im not fully gay but im enthusiatically less than straight if that makes any difference

This might be where the confusion is coming from. I got no dog in your fight with BR, but I admit thinking that you were adjusting your sexuality to best fit the conversation at the moment. If I'm wrong, please say so, but that's how it came off.


First, maybe he's bisexual or questioning, or transgender or something.  If he says he's queer, do we really need a precise measurement of just HOW queer he is?

And second, why does it matter anyway?  Do you have to be gay to support gay rights?  Do you have to be black to oppose racism?
 
2014-05-04 09:29:06 PM  

ricbach229: The cake is a part of the celebration of the blessing.  Hell, I've got an uncle-in-law that wouldn't visit my house because my wife and I weren't married yet and were living together.  After the marriage he talked to his priest about if it was appropriate because she is Catholic and we didn't have a Catholic service (outdoors in fact) so it wasn't recognized by the Church.  I think he's visited once and he said the prayers before we ate. I can easily believe a person of conscience could have a strong religious desire not to contribute any type of blessing on a service that violates the tenets of their church.


Sure, people believe all sorts of stupid crap.  That doesn't mean we should applaud them for it.

As often happens, H.L. Mencken said it best:  "We must respect the other fellow's religion but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
 
2014-05-04 09:30:54 PM  

ciberido: namegoeshere: Fafai: Fafai: I'm with you. I'm as queer as a $3

Fafai: /and im not fully gay but im enthusiatically less than straight if that makes any difference

This might be where the confusion is coming from. I got no dog in your fight with BR, but I admit thinking that you were adjusting your sexuality to best fit the conversation at the moment. If I'm wrong, please say so, but that's how it came off.

First, maybe he's bisexual or questioning, or transgender or something.  If he says he's queer, do we really need a precise measurement of just HOW queer he is?

And second, why does it matter anyway?  Do you have to be gay to support gay rights?  Do you have to be black to oppose racism?


Absolutely not. I was stating a possible reason why another poster questioned whether he was pretending to be something other than what he is. I shouldn't have gotten caught up in the pissing match between two farkers. I apologize, Fafai, if it sounded like I was trying to deny you the right to be whatever you identify as. Not my intent at all.
 
2014-05-04 09:32:04 PM  

Baz744: jso2897: THAT'S what you got out of what I said?
Jesus H. Christ - i give up.

No, that was me expanding on what you said. You analogized the expression of anti-gay views to the expression of pro-pedophile views to show that the expression of some views aren't acceptable in civilized society.

I thought that was a good analogy, so I expanded on it. I compared specific attributes anti-gay bigots and pedophiles have in common; to wit, holding of deviant views about sexuality, and danger to the mental health of children.


As long as it's clearly understood that I was talking about the advocacy of pedophilia, and not it's actual practice, which is a crime.
 
2014-05-04 09:54:32 PM  

namegoeshere: ricbach229: The cake is a part of the celebration of the blessing. Hell, I've got an uncle-in-law that wouldn't visit my house because my wife and I weren't married yet and were living together. After the marriage he talked to his priest about if it was appropriate because she is Catholic and we didn't have a Catholic service (outdoors in fact) so it wasn't recognized by the Church. I think he's visited once and he said the prayers before we ate. I can easily believe a person of conscience could have a strong religious desire not to contribute any type of blessing on a service that violates the tenets of their church

No one will ever hold a gun to their heads and force them to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple. They are free to refuse - if they are willing to deal with the consequences of their actions.


I guess that depends on how literally you mean "hold a gun to their heads."  They broke the law and may face civil penalties.  Sure, it's not a death threat but we are living in a nation where a person risks fines (and maybe even jail time) for refusing to serve gay customers.  And I'm ok with that, but let's be scrupulously honest about what's at stake here, lest the folks on "the other side" accuse us of downplaying or being dishonest about the issue.
 
2014-05-04 10:07:28 PM  

ciberido: namegoeshere: ricbach229: The cake is a part of the celebration of the blessing. Hell, I've got an uncle-in-law that wouldn't visit my house because my wife and I weren't married yet and were living together. After the marriage he talked to his priest about if it was appropriate because she is Catholic and we didn't have a Catholic service (outdoors in fact) so it wasn't recognized by the Church. I think he's visited once and he said the prayers before we ate. I can easily believe a person of conscience could have a strong religious desire not to contribute any type of blessing on a service that violates the tenets of their church

No one will ever hold a gun to their heads and force them to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple. They are free to refuse - if they are willing to deal with the consequences of their actions.

I guess that depends on how literally you mean "hold a gun to their heads."  They broke the law and may face civil penalties.  Sure, it's not a death threat but we are living in a nation where a person risks fines (and maybe even jail time) for refusing to serve gay customers.  And I'm ok with that, but let's be scrupulously honest about what's at stake here, lest the folks on "the other side" accuse us of downplaying or being dishonest about the issue.


is there an acceptable line.  Can a wedding photographer refuse to shoot a gay wedding? can a gay graphic designer refuse to do a job for a christian group?

Personally I think it would be great if a business can serve a customer without worrying about any fallout from other customers. but that day will never happen
 
2014-05-04 10:21:35 PM  

ciberido: namegoeshere: ricbach229: The cake is a part of the celebration of the blessing. Hell, I've got an uncle-in-law that wouldn't visit my house because my wife and I weren't married yet and were living together. After the marriage he talked to his priest about if it was appropriate because she is Catholic and we didn't have a Catholic service (outdoors in fact) so it wasn't recognized by the Church. I think he's visited once and he said the prayers before we ate. I can easily believe a person of conscience could have a strong religious desire not to contribute any type of blessing on a service that violates the tenets of their church

No one will ever hold a gun to their heads and force them to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple. They are free to refuse - if they are willing to deal with the consequences of their actions.

I guess that depends on how literally you mean "hold a gun to their heads."  They broke the law and may face civil penalties.  Sure, it's not a death threat but we are living in a nation where a person risks fines (and maybe even jail time) for refusing to serve gay customers.  And I'm ok with that, but let's be scrupulously honest about what's at stake here, lest the folks on "the other side" accuse us of downplaying or being dishonest about the issue.


I read a great quote years ago about freedom. I wish I remembered it exactly, and who said it. Basically, we all have infinite freedom. We are all free to do whatever the hell we want, as long as we understand and accept the consequences of our actions. I am free to walk into my local bank tomorrow with a gun and demand a whole bunch o' money. I may even get it. However, I understand and accept the consequences of my actions for that, that I would probably suck at bank robbing and would most likely be caught and jailed for a very long time, and even if I got away with it I would feel really bad because bank robbery goes against my moral code. Therefore, although I would love some extra money and am completely free to try my hand at bank robbery, I choose not to do so, as my desire for quick and easy cash is outweighed by the consequences that would come from my actions.

It's late and I'm tired, so I'm having a hard time thinking of an example where my urge to do the unpopular/illegal thing outweighed the consequences - okay, this one's lame, but like I said, I'm tired: Let's say I wanted to engage in a peaceful protest for an issue about which I feel strongly. I am free to do so, as long as I accept that things might go pear shaped and I might be injured or arrested. If I feel strongly enough about the protesty thing to accept the possible consequences, I will go ahead with the protest. And if I am in jail with swollen, tear-gassed eyes, I need to accept that that happened because I made the choice to protest.

So that's where I was going with that. The business owner is free to refuse service to the gay couple, as long as he accepts the consequences of doing so - those consequences being a loss of customers, stiff fines, even the loss of the business. If their conviction that the need for the refusal of service outweighs the negative consequences, then they will continue to refuse the service. That there are serious consequences involved does not deny them the freedom to refuse the service.

That they operate the business in a state where their refusal of service to the gay couple is breaking the law, then they need to do so only after acknowledging and accepting the consequences of breaking that law. They can't break the law and then claim religious persecution for experiences the consequences of breaking said law.
 
2014-05-04 10:23:03 PM  
One thing listed in that article is definitely true: being a soldier is an unfit profession for a real "Christian." What part of loving your enemies and treating people how you want to be treated was unclear in the Bible? But ah, I guess we can just totally ignore crucial parts of a religion and just make up whatever to justify being a douchebag.

/so much for love thy enemy
 
2014-05-04 10:37:06 PM  

iron de havilland: MrHappyRotter: It's very true. As a raging homosexual, I've personally destroyed several Christian businesses and I've seen to it that hundreds of Christians have lost their jobs. The problem isn't so much that we hate Christians, which we do, trust me, it's just that for every Christian business we shut down, our penis gets an inch bigger. And for every Christian we get fired, another pleasure nerve develops in our anal sphincter. You really can't compete with biology, so I'd recommend you just try to relax, and I promise I'll be gentle.

Are you OK with your posts being highlighted in green 3?

I'll change it if you want.


Green 2 is more flattering, or so I've been told.
 
2014-05-04 10:39:30 PM  

Waldo Pepper: is there an acceptable line.  Can a wedding photographer refuse to shoot a gay wedding? can a gay graphic designer refuse to do a job for a christian group?


Nope. You cannot refuse a service that you would normally provide to anyone else.

I really don't see why this is so hard to get, other than if you're being intentionally obtuse.
 
2014-05-04 10:50:37 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Waldo Pepper: is there an acceptable line.  Can a wedding photographer refuse to shoot a gay wedding? can a gay graphic designer refuse to do a job for a christian group?

Nope. You cannot refuse a service that you would normally provide to anyone else.

I really don't see why this is so hard to get, other than if you're being intentionally obtuse.


actually i was asking a question. Is there an acceptable line that all would agree on. 

as an example and only from a legal standpoint:
A small graphic design firm that tends to specialize in logos/graphics for gay rights groups is contacted by a southern baptist church to do their new logo.  Can they say No we don't do Christian logos as it might lose us our core business?
 
2014-05-04 10:57:54 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Yeah, what THEY^^^ said.

These assholes are all "free market capitalists", until the free market curb stomps  them.  Then they demand protection.


stenglelaw.com

Anti-free markets? Protection? Which side are you arguing against? It's the side that favors anti-discrimination laws that is anti-free market and protectionist. There's nothing "free market" about using the force of law to violate a person's right to freedom of association. I think you have your terms confused. Either that or you totally misunderstood what Orwell was writing about.
 
2014-05-04 11:03:19 PM  

Waldo Pepper: actually i was asking a question. Is there an acceptable line that all would agree on.


Actually I was answering the question.

Waldo Pepper: as an example and only from a legal standpoint:
A small graphic design firm that tends to specialize in logos/graphics for gay rights groups is contacted by a southern baptist church to do their new logo.  Can they say No we don't do Christian logos as it might lose us our core business?


Seriously, what about my answer was so goddamn hard to understand?
 
2014-05-04 11:06:49 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Waldo Pepper: actually i was asking a question. Is there an acceptable line that all would agree on.

Actually I was answering the question.

Waldo Pepper: as an example and only from a legal standpoint:
A small graphic design firm that tends to specialize in logos/graphics for gay rights groups is contacted by a southern baptist church to do their new logo.  Can they say No we don't do Christian logos as it might lose us our core business?

Seriously, what about my answer was so goddamn hard to understand?


you don't answer questions, you shout and demean anyone who doesn't agree with you. I don't watch fox news for the very same reasons. you both are worthy of being ignored.
 
2014-05-04 11:14:19 PM  

Waldo Pepper: cameroncrazy1984: Waldo Pepper: actually i was asking a question. Is there an acceptable line that all would agree on.

Actually I was answering the question.

Waldo Pepper: as an example and only from a legal standpoint:
A small graphic design firm that tends to specialize in logos/graphics for gay rights groups is contacted by a southern baptist church to do their new logo.  Can they say No we don't do Christian logos as it might lose us our core business?

Seriously, what about my answer was so goddamn hard to understand?

you don't answer questions, you shout and demean anyone who doesn't agree with you. I don't watch fox news for the very same reasons. you both are worthy of being ignored.


Dude. Just because I didn't give you an answer that you liked did not mean I did not answer the question.

Here it is again, in big bold letters, my answer to the question that you seem to not see:

Nope. You cannot refuse a service that you would normally provide to anyone else.
 
2014-05-04 11:25:19 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Nope. You cannot refuse a service that you would normally provide to anyone else.


The business can refuse service if they want to, it's their right. As a business though, they need to be careful when they refuse service as it may hurt them. A company that openly supports gay rights refusing to do business with a Baptist group might actually see an increase rather than a decline and it would make good business sense to turn them down. Is that morally right? Maybe, maybe not.
 
2014-05-04 11:26:59 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Nope. You cannot refuse a service that you would normally provide to anyone else.


And why not? I do all the time. Granted, it's for reasons of proprietary intellectual property protection and not because someone is gay or black or whatever, but I do it as I see fit. What happens if the person I refuse just happens to be gay? Or black?
 
2014-05-04 11:35:15 PM  

Baz744: thismomentinblackhistory: Baz744: Here's the thing that gets me about gay opponents. They're all so "up in your face" about their "disapproval" of homosexuality. They have to broadcast it everywhere they go. They put it on their bumper stickers, they wear it on their t-shirts, or they pin it to themselves on a button. They just refuse to keep their lifestyles to themselves.

I don't care if people want to disapprove of homosexuality in the privacy of their own homes. Whatever revolting things they want to do on their own time in their own place is fine.

But if you decide to flaunt your perverted gay hate everywhere you go, don't be surprised when there are consequences. Don't be surprised if employers don't want anything to do with you. Don't be surprised if your normal friends with good morals abandon you. Don't be surprised if even your own family rejects you.

Keep your gay hate in the closet where it belongs.

Beautiful.

Next on the agenda:

Are anti-gay attitudes chosen? Or do they arise from genetics?


There are other possibilities besides those two, such as perinatal hormonal influence (which may be a significant factor in male homosexuality).  But there is mounting evidence that whether you eventually become a Conservative or Liberal has more to do with how your brain was working even back in kindergarten than what you learned in school or some conscious choice you made in your teens or later.

To a certain extent, Social Conservationism is linked with fear, disgust, aversion, and xenophobia.  To be fair, there are also positive traits like honor, duty, tradition, and family that are also associated.  But the negative traits I listed are generally (I think) the roots from which homophobia grow.  The idea that homosexuality is weird, dangerous, and disgusting fits very well with the aversion-type mentality that is much more associated with the socially conservative than the socially liberal.
 
2014-05-04 11:36:40 PM  

pwhp_67: cameroncrazy1984: Nope. You cannot refuse a service that you would normally provide to anyone else.

The business can refuse service if they want to, it's their right. As a business though, they need to be careful when they refuse service as it may hurt them. A company that openly supports gay rights refusing to do business with a Baptist group might actually see an increase rather than a decline and it would make good business sense to turn them down. Is that morally right? Maybe, maybe not.


This is what i was getting at.  In a big city or populated area a bakery owner baking a cake for a gay wedding might have little to no harm to the bakery. but move that bakery to a small southern town and the baking the cake could cause the bakery to lose the majority of it's business.
 
2014-05-04 11:40:16 PM  

Bertuccio: namegoeshere: Please explain this. What makes a kosher deli kosher is not their refusal to serve a particular customer. It is the list of ingredients that they do not use in their food. What ingredient is included in Gay Cake that is forbidden in Christian cake? Because that would be the only way the two situations would be at all the same.

Gay ingredients... Cumin?


www.connectsavannah.com


Are you saying that deadoes are all gay?

 
2014-05-04 11:42:12 PM  

pwhp_67: The business can refuse service if they want to, it's their right.


WRONG

Where the fark do people keep getting this dumbass idea?  If you are open to the public then you have to serve the public.  If your customers are not violating the law or disrupting your business, you don't get to decide you don't feel like serving them.
 
2014-05-04 11:44:50 PM  

Harbinger of the Doomed Rat: pwhp_67: The business can refuse service if they want to, it's their right.

WRONG

Where the fark do people keep getting this dumbass idea?  If you are open to the public then you have to serve the public.  If your customers are not violating the law or disrupting your business, you don't get to decide you don't feel like serving them.


Actually that isn't accurate either.  There are various reasons you can refuse to serve a customer those reasons can't be based on race/religion/gender/sexual preference.
 
2014-05-04 11:46:02 PM  

Harbinger of the Doomed Rat: pwhp_67: The business can refuse service if they want to, it's their right.

WRONG

Where the fark do people keep getting this dumbass idea?


Maybe they get the idea from an understanding of what freedom is, or from the understanding of what the constitutional limits of governmental authority are.
 
2014-05-04 11:56:14 PM  

DrPainMD: Harbinger of the Doomed Rat: pwhp_67: The business can refuse service if they want to, it's their right.

WRONG

Where the fark do people keep getting this dumbass idea?

Maybe they get the idea from an understanding of what freedom is, or from the understanding of what the constitutional limits of governmental authority are.

Did you read that on a bumpersticker at the Army/Navy store?
 
2014-05-05 12:14:58 AM  

DrPainMD: Harbinger of the Doomed Rat: pwhp_67: The business can refuse service if they want to, it's their right.

WRONG

Where the fark do people keep getting this dumbass idea?

Maybe they get the idea from an understanding of what freedom is, or from the understanding of what the constitutional limits of governmental authority are.


If by "understanding," you mean "Complete misunderstanding," sure.
 
2014-05-05 12:16:33 AM  
I'm against marriage, and I don't live anywhere near a Chik-Fil-A. I'm persecuting you twice as hard.

Though if I owned an occult shop, I would totally sell bibles.
 
2014-05-05 12:40:01 AM  

moogoob: Bob Robert: Fafai: Wow. I've been posting for over a year and have made no effort to hide my sexuality here on fark. But you just know everything about others' motivation more than they do, don't you? You're the king of puttign words in others' mouths (often changin their meaning 180 degrees) in order to win simplistic binary arguments. I've watched you do it to numerous people in your two weeks here.


Your trolling is really getting desperate here. If you don't see the problem with supporting a business that wants to take away your basic human rights then there is no hope left for you. Keep white knighting for the conservative trolls, you're doing God's work.

I'm pregnant


So... you read the idiot I was replying to, and felt the need to call me the troll here? You might be blinded by emotions.
 
2014-05-05 12:41:09 AM  

slotz: Enemabag Jones: It is called keeping your personal life personal, and your business life outside of your religious life.

And if you don't want to put two grooms on the top of a cake then don't open a bakery.

This is bullshiat.


You should also have a right to deny an interracial couple because it is against your beliefs, right?
 
2014-05-05 12:42:29 AM  

DrPainMD: There's nothing "free market" about using the force of law to violate a person's right to freedom of association.


Freedom of association? I love it when libertarians make up claims that they think exist. Economic freedom. Freedom of association. What else do you believe in the Constitution backs up your right to be a bigot in business?
 
2014-05-05 12:47:54 AM  

mikefinch: Lets say i hunt allot and i have a great picture of myself stabbing a deer in the face... And i take it in to a framing shop owned by a PETA ultravegan... and the guy politely tells me he cant open his business towards something he feels glorifies killing animals... Its against his values...

Is he a bigot?


One of the issues involved is that hunting is something you DO, whereas homosexuality is something you ARE.  It shouldn't matter: if we lived in a more rational world, people would agree that discriminating against homosexuals (and other lbqt folk) is wrong even if it were a choice.  But sadly, in this imperfect and irrational world in which we live, it does matter in the minds of a lot of folk, and it also has some bearing on sexual orientation's status as a protected class in US law.

So a problem with your analogy is that a hunter has the choice to stop hunting.  Despite what many people claim, a homosexual really doesn't have the choice to stop being gay.

Additionally, in Loving v. Virginia, the US Supreme Court ruled that marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," whereas, so far as I know, neither hunting nor getting a picture framed is.  So again, your analogy is not perfect.

That's not to say, however, that your question isn't interesting and deserving of a response.
 
2014-05-05 12:49:29 AM  

Miss Alexandra: Well, for every gay that wants to purposely wreck a Christian's livelihood out of hate, there is likely at least one Christian who will be a customer.

You don't go into an occult shop and demand they stock King James Bibles.  Likewise, if a Christian--obeying their conscience--doesn't want to be involved in your so-called "wedding," just find someone with no morals or make it yourself.

I think most people have the sense to know that these gays are just being hateful and spiteful.  "Waaahhh...we can't get these guys to tolerate our perverted lifestyle!  Let's make sure we put them out of business!"

/just disgusted right now


img.fark.net
 
2014-05-05 01:45:10 AM  

Waldo Pepper: ciberido: I guess that depends on how literally you mean "hold a gun to their heads."  They broke the law and may face civil penalties.  Sure, it's not a death threat but we are living in a nation where a person risks fines (and maybe even jail time) for refusing to serve gay customers.  And I'm ok with that, but let's be scrupulously honest about what's at stake here, lest the folks on "the other side" accuse us of downplaying or being dishonest about the issue.

is there an acceptable line.  Can a wedding photographer refuse to shoot a gay wedding? can a gay graphic designer refuse to do a job for a christian group?


Religion and sexual orientation are both protected classes, so no.
 
2014-05-05 02:10:21 AM  

Enemabag Jones: It is called keeping your personal life personal, and your business life outside of your religious life.

And if you don't want to put two grooms on the top of a cake then don't open a bakery.


See, you say that, but 40 years ago the idea of such a cake was unthinkable. A lot of people are caught up in a changing time with an honest conscience and no actual hate for their fellow man.

Would you bid fair market value to do construction work or make Westboro's protest signs?

What about something more mainstream, like the NRA?

There are plenty of activities and jobs someone might feel consciously inclined to avoid.
 
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