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(Marketwatch)   Don't blame the decline in summer jobs on Obama. Apparently your lazy-ass 17-year-old just doesn't want to work   (marketwatch.com ) divider line
    More: Stupid, American teens, decline, Roth IRAs, Challenger Gray & Christmas Inc., individual retirement accounts, Sallie Mae, college application, summer  
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1384 clicks; posted to Business » on 03 May 2014 at 8:38 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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vpb [TotalFark]
2014-05-03 08:31:45 AM  
Is this guy claiming that there is a labor shortage, or does he realize that there aren't enough jobs out there?
 
2014-05-03 08:42:08 AM  

vpb: Is this guy claiming that there is a labor shortage, or does he realize that there aren't enough jobs out there?


RTFA and find out.

Hint: it's not entirely the economy
 
2014-05-03 08:47:03 AM  
There are never that many summer jobs.

Who can blame kids for getting in some "living in the basement" practice in advance?
 
2014-05-03 08:53:09 AM  
Also, summer jobs tend to pay minimum wage.

If you make $7.25/hr, in a 40 hour week you earn $290. After taxes, you'll take home ~$200.

There are about 12 weeks in a given summer vacation. If you saved every penny of that money, you would only have $2400. But you need to pay gas, social dining, entertainment, etc. $150/week savings is more realistic.

That's a whole summer burned, for a measly $1800. That won't buy a car that's worth a damn, even for a high schooler. It certainly won't make a dent in college tuition.

It will basically buy a Mac, a PS4, a few games, and a new phone.

That's not much return for the price of burning a whole summer of your youth. That's irreplaceable. Especially not to smell like fries all the time from slinging burgers at McDonald's.

I would put the over/under at $5000. If you can't make at least that, you won't bite.

Coincidentally, that's also about what you would make if minimum wage were ~$10-11. Who knew?
 
2014-05-03 08:53:54 AM  
I'm not really buying these stats, or at least the conclusion.

The article states that they do not consider students in summer school or working unpaid internships.  HS is the perfect time to do an unpaid internship, so that could be a big chunk...

ALSO, is it just me or is there more and more competition for summer jobs from foreign teens?  When I head down to the shore, I'm certain I will encounter many foreigners who are there to work for the summer and then return.  When I was younger it was more European groups (lots of Irish), now it seems to be mainly eastern european.

/anecdote != evidence
 
2014-05-03 08:56:12 AM  
Part of it is it's a different economy. For the most part, the 'teen jobs' that exist are either taken by adults, or really, really sucky jobs.

Working low end, entry level, low skills jobs pays so little these days, it gets to the point where it can be a waste of someone's time to do these jobs. Blame globalization.
 
2014-05-03 08:57:50 AM  
I showed this to my teen son recently.  He's really busy looking for the "right" job.
 
2014-05-03 09:03:16 AM  
There comes a point where you don't have to be rocket surgeon to realize how, at some point, working crappy low-wage jobs won't get you ahead. But it will allow you to break into a having a lifetime of low-wage jobs.

No future in that. Not worth the time.
 
2014-05-03 09:04:37 AM  

johnnyrocket: Part of it is it's a different economy. For the most part, the 'teen jobs' that exist are either taken by adults, or really, really sucky jobs.

Working low end, entry level, low skills jobs pays so little these days, it gets to the point where it can be a waste of someone's time to do these jobs. Blame globalization.


I'll be honest, one of the more interesting differences I saw when moving from Minnesota to the DC area was that all of the job that were traditionally "teen" jobs (fast food, newspaper delivery, etc.) were taken by older minorities, probably immigrants.  I can understand this from the business side, you don't have to train someone up for a few weeks when they are only staying a few months.  And you probably aren't paying them much more.
 
2014-05-03 09:05:06 AM  
It's easier to be frugal than it is to spend a week of your life earning 150 bucks.
 
2014-05-03 09:05:14 AM  
This looks like a good thread to trash Millennials.

/GenX
//Had a job in a grocery store as a teen - year round
///Meh
 
2014-05-03 09:06:11 AM  
My kid just worked 11 8-hour days in a row. She's 20.
 
2014-05-03 09:06:53 AM  

SmellsLikePoo: HS is the perfect time to do an unpaid internship, so that could be a big chunk...


NO.
The best time to do an unpaid internship is NEVER.
 
2014-05-03 09:07:50 AM  

HotIgneous Intruder: There comes a point where you don't have to be rocket surgeon to realize how, at some point, working crappy low-wage jobs won't get you ahead. But it will allow you to break into a having a lifetime of low-wage jobs.

No future in that. Not worth the time.


It's time to get your ass out of the basement son.
 
2014-05-03 09:12:59 AM  

whistleridge: There are about 12 weeks in a given summer vacation. If you saved every penny of that money, you would only have $2400. But you need to pay gas, social dining, entertainment, etc. $150/week savings is more realistic.


I worked summer McJobs before and during college, and I never needed to pay for "social dining" or entertainment.  When you're broke and trying to work through school, that crappy job is supposed to be one component of an overall crappy time.  You have to work a crap job for crap hours for crap money, and then you have to eat crap ramen so that you don't lose your crap money.

I agree, though, that at the current minimum wage versus the rising cost of tuition, the value proposition is no longer there.
 
2014-05-03 09:30:01 AM  

HotIgneous Intruder: It's easier to be frugal than it is to spend a week of your life earning 150 bucks.


That's a good point.  As a teenager, it's easy to lose all that money from your summer job just by going out and having a good time---but it's also astoundingly easy to not spend money.  Especially as a teenager, where you're used to not having an income and you already know a lot of ways to while away the hours when you're dead bored.

I worked a few minimum wage jobs through college, and I knew I had to save as much of that money as possible, but I still withdrew $20 a week for whatever---about $40 in today's money.  At the time, I took pride in my relative frugality, but in retrospect I can't figure out why I even needed $20 a week.  I was on a meal plan, so I didn't need to buy food, I was too young for the bars.  I guess mostly it was record stores and book stores, which is dumb considering that we had a massive library where I could read whatever I wanted for free.
 
2014-05-03 09:42:44 AM  
shiat, $7.25 an hour isn't worth going to. But I guess it's important we have shiat jobs for high school kids so they can learn the importance of not "earning" a wage. Much better off randomly making $500 the odd hour and enjoying yourself the rest.
 
2014-05-03 09:52:27 AM  
I blame the educational system for the lack of intelligent student out there.

Thanks, Obama
 
2014-05-03 09:57:01 AM  
I worked year round in school. Summer at a camp (counselor) and during the year as a student desk monkey at the athletic center (passing out towels, doing team laundry, general cleaning, and setup for PE classes). And I liked the 6am shifts because I would usually work alone and get to do homework.

Take 9am classes and be done for the day at noon or 1pm. A small nap in the library meant that the entire evening was mine to screw around with.

/Getting out of class when the lazy retards were just going in was fantastic
 
2014-05-03 10:08:10 AM  

Xcott: whistleridge: There are about 12 weeks in a given summer vacation. If you saved every penny of that money, you would only have $2400. But you need to pay gas, social dining, entertainment, etc. $150/week savings is more realistic.

I worked summer McJobs before and during college, and I never needed to pay for "social dining" or entertainment.  When you're broke and trying to work through school, that crappy job is supposed to be one component of an overall crappy time.  You have to work a crap job for crap hours for crap money, and then you have to eat crap ramen so that you don't lose your crap money.

I agree, though, that at the current minimum wage versus the rising cost of tuition, the value proposition is no longer there.


You weren't working your way through high school. At most, you were supplementing the family income. Unless you were VERY poor and in an extreme minority, you weren't paying rent, utilities, putting food on the table, etc. And even if you were, you're in no way representative of the trend described by the article.

Kids aren't working today because there's no money in it. They get shiat wages, the work sucks, there's no peer support (ie not everyone is doing it), and if you're not working for a car, there's simply no economic incentive to do it. The opportunity cost is too great.

Or to put it another way: it's the free market at work. Poor wages are creating a labor shortage. It's just that companies don't want to raise wages to make up the difference, so they try to blame it on generational laziness, which is BS.
 
2014-05-03 10:08:21 AM  

HotIgneous Intruder: There comes a point where you don't have to be rocket surgeon to realize how, at some point, working crappy low-wage jobs won't get you ahead. But it will allow you to break into a having a lifetime of low-wage jobs.

No future in that. Not worth the time.


This. I worked crappy retail jobs all through school, only to graduate in the worst recession in recent memories. Since all of my recent work history is in retail, those are the only jobs I'm qualified for, my degrees be damned.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-05-03 10:20:59 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: vpb: Is this guy claiming that there is a labor shortage, or does he realize that there aren't enough jobs out there?

RTFA and find out.

Hint: it's not entirely the economy


I did.  The fact that many teems say they don't want to work doesn't change the fact that there are more who do than there are jobs for them.  Did you think that if more teens wanted to work the job market would magically expand to accommodate them?

/It's entirely the economy.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-05-03 10:24:42 AM  

wildcardjack: shiat, $7.25 an hour isn't worth going to. But I guess it's important we have shiat jobs for high school kids so they can learn the importance of not "earning" a wage. Much better off randomly making $500 the odd hour and enjoying yourself the rest.


I think part of it could be explained simply by the fact that it costs more to get too and from a job than the job pays.  Even for someone who lives at home, there is a subsistence level wage.  If the gas to get to a job costs as much as your take home pay, why work?
 
2014-05-03 10:27:47 AM  

whistleridge: Also, summer jobs tend to pay minimum wage.

If you make $7.25/hr, in a 40 hour week you earn $290. After taxes, you'll take home ~$200.

There are about 12 weeks in a given summer vacation. If you saved every penny of that money, you would only have $2400. But you need to pay gas, social dining, entertainment, etc. $150/week savings is more realistic.

That's a whole summer burned, for a measly $1800. That won't buy a car that's worth a damn, even for a high schooler. It certainly won't make a dent in college tuition.

It will basically buy a Mac, a PS4, a few games, and a new phone.

That's not much return for the price of burning a whole summer of your youth. That's irreplaceable. Especially not to smell like fries all the time from slinging burgers at McDonald's.

I would put the over/under at $5000. If you can't make at least that, you won't bite.

Coincidentally, that's also about what you would make if minimum wage were ~$10-11. Who knew?


I recently interviewed a 17-year old for a full-time summer job doing interesting, varied and skill-building work in my prototyping and short production run business. This was full-time, 8-hr a day plus weekend overtime if he wants it work starting at $10/hr.

Result? He dropped by the next day to say he was taking a part time gig selling skateboards and hipster clothes at something called Zoomies. They pay $7.25/hr and limit workers to 25 hours a week spread over all day and evening over 7 days a week. Why? Because he gets discounts on whatever he buys there and gets to hang out with other high school aged kids.

I hired a mid-20s guy who was working at a local MAACO paint and body shop.
 
2014-05-03 10:27:57 AM  
Assistant Crack Whore.
 
2014-05-03 10:27:58 AM  

whistleridge: Kids aren't working today because there's no money in it. They get shiat wages, the work sucks, there's no peer support (ie not everyone is doing it), and if you're not working for a car, there's simply no economic incentive to do it. The opportunity cost is too great.Or to put it another way: it's the free market at work. Poor wages are creating a labor shortage. It's just that companies don't want to raise wages to make up the difference, so they try to blame it on generational laziness, which is BS.


When I was a kid, you worked. There wasn't a lot of money in it back then either, but it was the only money you had. Parents didn't give a shiat if you had no money. They weren't going to share. And the only real difference between well off kids and poor kids was, the well off kids could get better summer jobs through their parents. My dad was typical. He actually agreed with you, that work sucks and a kid was better off enjoying life than working, that money wasn't that important. Not that he would know that, but that's what he would say. Then he would laugh at me if I asked for some, and tell me to get a job.
 
2014-05-03 10:30:29 AM  

rumpelstiltskin: When I was a kid, you worked. There wasn't a lot of money in it back then either, but it was the only money you had. Parents didn't give a shiat if you had no money. They weren't going to share. And the only real difference between well off kids and poor kids was, the well off kids could get better summer jobs through their parents. My dad was typical. He actually agreed with you, that work sucks and a kid was better off enjoying life than working, that money wasn't that important. Not that he would know that, but that's what he would say. Then he would laugh at me if I asked for some, and tell me to get a job.


When you were a kid, white people still made up an overwhelming majority of the population, people paid obscene rates for long distance, gas was under $1/gallon, computers had something like 1MB of hard drive space, you could smoke indoors pretty much everywhere, the Soviet Union existed, and the internet did not. 

What you did in the workplace as a teenager is exactly as relevant to this conversation as those things are.
 
2014-05-03 10:32:23 AM  

whistleridge: rumpelstiltskin: When I was a kid, you worked. There wasn't a lot of money in it back then either, but it was the only money you had. Parents didn't give a shiat if you had no money. They weren't going to share. And the only real difference between well off kids and poor kids was, the well off kids could get better summer jobs through their parents. My dad was typical. He actually agreed with you, that work sucks and a kid was better off enjoying life than working, that money wasn't that important. Not that he would know that, but that's what he would say. Then he would laugh at me if I asked for some, and tell me to get a job.

When you were a kid, white people still made up an overwhelming majority of the population, people paid obscene rates for long distance, gas was under $1/gallon, computers had something like 1MB of hard drive space, you could smoke indoors pretty much everywhere, the Soviet Union existed, and the internet did not. 

What you did in the workplace as a teenager is exactly as relevant to this conversation as those things are.


So what you're saying is, it is a generational thing?
 
2014-05-03 10:32:24 AM  

Stone Meadow: I recently interviewed a 17-year old for a full-time summer job doing interesting, varied and skill-building work in my prototyping and short production run business. This was full-time, 8-hr a day plus weekend overtime if he wants it work starting at $10/hr.

Result? He dropped by the next day to say he was taking a part time gig selling skateboards and hipster clothes at something called Zoomies. They pay $7.25/hr and limit workers to 25 hours a week spread over all day and evening over 7 days a week. Why? Because he gets discounts on whatever he buys there and gets to hang out with other high school aged kids.

I hired a mid-20s guy who was working at a local MAACO paint and body shop.


line-in.co.uk
 
2014-05-03 10:36:53 AM  

rumpelstiltskin: whistleridge: rumpelstiltskin: When I was a kid, you worked. There wasn't a lot of money in it back then either, but it was the only money you had. Parents didn't give a shiat if you had no money. They weren't going to share. And the only real difference between well off kids and poor kids was, the well off kids could get better summer jobs through their parents. My dad was typical. He actually agreed with you, that work sucks and a kid was better off enjoying life than working, that money wasn't that important. Not that he would know that, but that's what he would say. Then he would laugh at me if I asked for some, and tell me to get a job.

When you were a kid, white people still made up an overwhelming majority of the population, people paid obscene rates for long distance, gas was under $1/gallon, computers had something like 1MB of hard drive space, you could smoke indoors pretty much everywhere, the Soviet Union existed, and the internet did not. 

What you did in the workplace as a teenager is exactly as relevant to this conversation as those things are.

So what you're saying is, it is a generational thing?


What I'm saying is, you sound old. Literally. 'Things were better back in MY day, cuz goshdarn it, we  worked for what we wanted, we never slacked off, and we respected our elders' is a bs line that middle-agers and above have been making about Kids These Days since the year zero.

Human nature doesn't change. We respond to positive and negative stimuli now in the exact same way that we always have. And if we have changed on a fundamental behavioral level, it certainly hasn't been in the past 25 years. If kids are acting differently, it's because their stimuli have changed, not their moral fiber.

Or to use Occam's Razor: which is more likely: that a whole generation of teenagers suddenly became shiftless and lazy, or that 40 years of flat wages and 20 years of general economic malaise have made summer work such a losing proposition that they are generally now opting to do other things?
 
2014-05-03 10:39:33 AM  
I had a paper route in Middle School.
In High School, I worked for my POP's woodworking shop. He encouraged me to try other jobs in the summer. I worked as a Pearl-Diver/Busboy/ Prep in restaurants and Laborer for carpenters, plumbers and electricians.  I mowed and raked a few lawns and shoveled a few driveways too. I could afford a beater car i@ 16.5 years old. Granted, bought from a 'shop neighbor' of POP that I had worked for.

Last week, I was picking weeds in front of my house when the High School kids walked by. I asked "Would you do this for $8.00 an hour? (MA min wage) No. Nope for $10 or 12.50 (what I consider minimum wage on Cape Cod). None of them have ever mowed, raked or shoveled, even at home. They wanted $20 an hour.

Since the 08 depression/my customer base shipping to Asia, I have been running a seasonal motel. I hire J-1 Student Visa kids from Eastern Europe as Housekeepers for $12.00 an hour. They ride bikes to work in hurricanes and:
Show up
On time
Ready to work
Smile on the face song in the heart
No drama

American college kids stop by on occasion looking to be Life Guards or Beach Attendants. Problem: They lack Life Guard Certification and want $20 an hour. I manage the place at night and make that.

I hire 6 college kids because I need 3 for the front desk. I routinely fire them for not showing up repeatedly, showing up late and generally pissing me and Guests off. Drifting into work half an hour late texting your friends is no way to go through life.  Roll your eyes and say "What-Ev-Ah" to a Guest? Gone.

/rant

OH! There is hope! I have some kids that have passed the Red Cross Babysitter course. $10.00 an hour, on property.
 
2014-05-03 10:51:17 AM  

Mr. Eugenides: HotIgneous Intruder: There comes a point where you don't have to be rocket surgeon to realize how, at some point, working crappy low-wage jobs won't get you ahead. But it will allow you to break into a having a lifetime of low-wage jobs.

No future in that. Not worth the time.

It's time to get your ass out of the basement son.


/I'm sorry?
//Oilfield tanker driver, $6,500 per month.
///That is all.
////Because I found an alternative to using my English degree.
 
2014-05-03 10:54:17 AM  

whistleridge: Or to use Occam's Razor: which is more likely: that a whole generation of teenagers suddenly became shiftless and lazy, or that 40 years of flat wages and 20 years of general economic malaise have made summer work such a losing proposition that they are generally now opting to do other things?


What I think happened is that as the middle class broadened and became more affluent from the fifties to the eighties, middle class mores changed and parents became more generous with their children. You can take that as you like; you appear to want to take that as an insult, an implication of laziness. It's not meant that way, but you're right, I am old, old enough not to care if you feel insulted by something I said.
 
2014-05-03 10:55:03 AM  

vpb: I think part of it could be explained simply by the fact that it costs more to get too and from a job than the job pays.  Even for someone who lives at home, there is a subsistence level wage.  If the gas to get to a job costs as much as your take home pay, why work?


I'd bet that most kids who have cars and work spend most of their money from that job on insurance and fuel.
 
2014-05-03 10:59:31 AM  

Stone Meadow: whistleridge: Also, summer jobs tend to pay minimum wage.

If you make $7.25/hr, in a 40 hour week you earn $290. After taxes, you'll take home ~$200.

There are about 12 weeks in a given summer vacation. If you saved every penny of that money, you would only have $2400. But you need to pay gas, social dining, entertainment, etc. $150/week savings is more realistic.

That's a whole summer burned, for a measly $1800. That won't buy a car that's worth a damn, even for a high schooler. It certainly won't make a dent in college tuition.

It will basically buy a Mac, a PS4, a few games, and a new phone.

That's not much return for the price of burning a whole summer of your youth. That's irreplaceable. Especially not to smell like fries all the time from slinging burgers at McDonald's.

I would put the over/under at $5000. If you can't make at least that, you won't bite.

Coincidentally, that's also about what you would make if minimum wage were ~$10-11. Who knew?

I recently interviewed a 17-year old for a full-time summer job doing interesting, varied and skill-building work in my prototyping and short production run business. This was full-time, 8-hr a day plus weekend overtime if he wants it work starting at $10/hr.

Result? He dropped by the next day to say he was taking a part time gig selling skateboards and hipster clothes at something called Zoomies. They pay $7.25/hr and limit workers to 25 hours a week spread over all day and evening over 7 days a week. Why? Because he gets discounts on whatever he buys there and gets to hang out with other high school aged kids.

I hired a mid-20s guy who was working at a local MAACO paint and body shop.



A friend of mine has a lawn care and general cleanup business on the side.  He has several cash cow accounts with businesses (cut grass & weed whack) that he has a few guys manage, while he also bids on stump grinding, tree trimming, and yard cleanup jobs.  There are kids in his neighborhood with nothing going on, so he's tried hiring a few for his big action days.  One day, he wasn't on site for four hours when one kids mother is calling, complaining he's been "gone too long" and needs to come home right away.  Another isn't so sure her snowflake should be outside doing hard work, while other kids who claim they want to work quit after the first day.

He's a serious right-wing, immigrants are stealing jobs type person but has told me, "The hell with this.  I'll just get some of these Mexicans who'll actually work.  From what I hear, they're reliable and do a good job."

whistleridge: Also, summer jobs tend to pay minimum wage.

If you make $7.25/hr, in a 40 hour week you earn $290. After taxes, you'll take home ~$200.

There are about 12 weeks in a given summer vacation. If you saved every penny of that money, you would only have $2400. But you need to pay gas, social dining, entertainment, etc. $150/week savings is more realistic.

That's a whole summer burned, for a measly $1800. That won't buy a car that's worth a damn, even for a high schooler. It certainly won't make a dent in college tuition.

It will basically buy a Mac, a PS4, a few games, and a new phone.

That's not much return for the price of burning a whole summer of your youth. That's irreplaceable. Especially not to smell like fries all the time from slinging burgers at McDonald's.

I would put the over/under at $5000. If you can't make at least that, you won't bite.

Coincidentally, that's also about what you would make if minimum wage were ~$10-11. Who knew?


$1,800 for a 17 year old?  Am I that damned senile to not understand that in addition to a paycheck comes the work experience along with a possible reference for the future, or am I being unreasonable?
 
2014-05-03 11:01:23 AM  

whistleridge: Or to put it another way: it's the free market at work. Poor wages are creating a labor shortage. It's just that companies don't want to raise wages to make up the difference, so they try to blame it on generational laziness, which is BS.


And companies absolutely will not train anyone for anything.
HR awaits their perfect candidate. And they can afford to wait and wait, because, you know, they have jobs.

If you want a job, go get training on your own dime and make it work.
And by "training" I don't mean a college degree with electives and loans.
Go to a hard skills school, hard skills that require humans to do them.
Nursing, plumbing, welding, driving.
That's if you want a jorb.
 
2014-05-03 11:01:26 AM  

rumpelstiltskin: What I think happened is that as the middle class broadened and became more affluent from the fifties to the eighties, middle class mores changed and parents became more generous with their children.


I'd have to agree with that. Growing up as a teen in the early nineties in a middle class home my parents were rather free with the money if it were something reasonable however most of my friends and I did work so we would have our own money.  It's quite possible parents today are even more giving because of that.
 
2014-05-03 11:07:57 AM  

whistleridge: You weren't working your way through high school. At most, you were supplementing the family income. Unless you were VERY poor and in an extreme minority, you weren't paying rent, utilities, putting food on the table, etc.


What does that have to do with anything?  The TFA is simply about the number of teenagers (age 16-19) participating in the labor force.  It isn't specific to high school vs college students, it isn't specific to teenagers in poor families working to help pay rent.  Those are meaningless and arbitrary reasons to dismiss someone's experience as irrelevant.
 

And even if you were, you're in no way representative of the trend described by the article.

What a weird thing to say.  My experience fits the published trend very closely.  I worked from age 16-19, about 25 years ago, when the teenager participation rate was higher.  Now it is lower.  How am I not representative of the trend in the article?
 
2014-05-03 11:22:37 AM  

HotIgneous Intruder: Mr. Eugenides: HotIgneous Intruder: There comes a point where you don't have to be rocket surgeon to realize how, at some point, working crappy low-wage jobs won't get you ahead. But it will allow you to break into a having a lifetime of low-wage jobs.

No future in that. Not worth the time.

It's time to get your ass out of the basement son.

/I'm sorry?
//Oilfield tanker driver, $6,500 per month.
///That is all.
////Because I found an alternative to using my English degree.



You have to develop job skills as a teen or young adult.  I took exception when you said "you don't have to be rocket surgeon to realize how, at some point, working crappy low-wage jobs won't get you ahead. But it will allow you to break into a having a lifetime of low-wage jobs."

The problem with that statement is that in order to get anywhere, you have to start somewhere.  Yeah, a crappy low wage job sucks, but that's a much better springboard into a better job than sitting in the basement eating cheesy poofs and whining about how there aren't any jobs.

/BTW, trucker is a very cromulent occupation in my estimation.
 
2014-05-03 11:24:22 AM  

whistleridge: When you were a kid, white people still made up an overwhelming majority of the population, people paid obscene rates for long distance, gas was under $1/gallon, computers had something like 1MB of hard drive space, you could smoke indoors pretty much everywhere, the Soviet Union existed, and the internet did not.

What you did in the workplace as a teenager is exactly as relevant to this conversation as those things are.


"This conversation" is about a trend plotted between 1978 and the present day.

You're saying that the way things were in the 1980s and 1990s are irrelevant to that trend?  I don't think you're making much sense here:  the way things were in the 80s and 90s are a large part of the trend.  Of course it's relevant to the topic at hand; it practically is the topic at hand.
 
2014-05-03 11:26:20 AM  

whistleridge: Stone Meadow: I recently interviewed a 17-year old for a full-time summer job...

[line-in.co.uk image 800x566]


Sure, my example is an anecdote on Fark, but had I reported it to whatever Cali calls our Dept of Labor it would be data. :^) Moreover, much of this type of social/economic data gathering is little more than well organized and collated anecdote, since little of it is actually independently verified.

Researcher to Kid #1: Do you have a job? Y/N If not, do you want one? Y/N
Researcher to Kid #2: Do you have a job? Y/N If not, do you want one? Y/N
Researcher to Kid #3: Do you have a job? Y/N If not, do you want one? Y/N
...ad infinitum.

Gary-L: A friend of mine has a lawn care and general cleanup business on the side.  He has several cash cow accounts with businesses (cut grass & weed whack) that he has a few guys manage, while he also bids on stump grinding, tree trimming, and yard cleanup jobs.  There are kids in his neighborhood with nothing going ...


Things are more complicated than a simple 'kids nowadays are lazy' explanation can account for, as I am confident you know, and has been repeatedly pointed out above. For instance, no 'grunt-work' employer is able to consistently attract middle class kids to do that kind of work, and probably hasn't been for 60 years or more. When I turned 17 I had offers from two local mills, fishing boats, the DNR and more for full time summer work. They had to compete for kids 45 years ago, and all of those offered well above the minimum wage of the time (what, $1.20/hr?). Was I going to trim trees and mow lawns for minimum wage? Not a chance. ;^)
 
2014-05-03 11:36:02 AM  

Betep: I hire J-1 Student Visa kids from Eastern Europe as Housekeepers for $12.00 an hour.


And you're part of the problem. Congratulations.
 
2014-05-03 11:41:26 AM  

Mr. Eugenides: HotIgneous Intruder: Mr. Eugenides: HotIgneous Intruder: There comes a point where you don't have to be rocket surgeon to realize how, at some point, working crappy low-wage jobs won't get you ahead. But it will allow you to break into a having a lifetime of low-wage jobs.

No future in that. Not worth the time.

It's time to get your ass out of the basement son.

/I'm sorry?
//Oilfield tanker driver, $6,500 per month.
///That is all.
////Because I found an alternative to using my English degree.


You have to develop job skills as a teen or young adult.  I took exception when you said "you don't have to be rocket surgeon to realize how, at some point, working crappy low-wage jobs won't get you ahead. But it will allow you to break into a having a lifetime of low-wage jobs."

The problem with that statement is that in order to get anywhere, you have to start somewhere.  Yeah, a crappy low wage job sucks, but that's a much better springboard into a better job than sitting in the basement eating cheesy poofs and whining about how there aren't any jobs.

/BTW, trucker is a very cromulent occupation in my estimation.


What valuable, translatable skill does one develop by slinging fries at McD's?

/had a job in HS but my job qualified me as skilled labor
 
2014-05-03 11:43:25 AM  

Xcott: whistleridge: When you were a kid, white people still made up an overwhelming majority of the population, people paid obscene rates for long distance, gas was under $1/gallon, computers had something like 1MB of hard drive space, you could smoke indoors pretty much everywhere, the Soviet Union existed, and the internet did not.

What you did in the workplace as a teenager is exactly as relevant to this conversation as those things are.

"This conversation" is about a trend plotted between 1978 and the present day.

You're saying that the way things were in the 1980s and 1990s are irrelevant to that trend?  I don't think you're making much sense here:  the way things were in the 80s and 90s are a large part of the trend.  Of course it's relevant to the topic at hand; it practically is the topic at hand.


This 'conversation' is about economic trends and how wages attract or fail to attract labor. You're saying kids these days are lazy. I'm saying kids these days aren't incentivized. Back in your day, a summer day was a slow boring thing. You didn't have  PS4 and CoD to keep you entertained all day and all night, you didn't have a phone on you to stay in touch, etc. You wanted a car, so you could get out of the house and be free. Cars take money, and the work was worth the freedom.

Today, that's not the case. Kids have more to do, and they accordingly place a higher value on their free time. If employers want to compete, they need to pay accordingly.
 
2014-05-03 11:44:16 AM  

elysive: What valuable, translatable skill does one develop by slinging fries at McD's?


And there's the rub. It's even in the article!

"These teenagers need to learn valuable skills and work ethic!" out of one side of the face, and "Why would we hire them or pay them anything? All they know how to do is sling burgers." out the other.
 
2014-05-03 11:45:38 AM  

whistleridge: This 'conversation' is about economic trends and how wages attract or fail to attract labor. You're saying kids these days are lazy. I'm saying kids these days aren't incentivized. Back in your day, a summer day was a slow boring thing. You didn't have PS4 and CoD to keep you entertained all day and all night, you didn't have a phone on you to stay in touch, etc. You wanted a car, so you could get out of the house and be free. Cars take money, and the work was worth the freedom.

Today, that's not the case. Kids have more to do, and they accordingly place a higher value on their free time. If employers want to compete, they need to pay accordingly.


And while I agree, you also need to point out how much less buying power working will give a teen.
 
2014-05-03 11:50:10 AM  

Sergeant Grumbles: Betep: I hire J-1 Student Visa kids from Eastern Europe as Housekeepers for $12.00 an hour.

And you're part of the problem. Congratulations.


Also, as he's hiring J-1 visa holders, he doesn't have to pay FICA, which he would have to do if he hired Americans.

So he gets them for cheaper than citizens and doesn't have to pay all the taxes he would have to if he hired citizens.
 
2014-05-03 11:51:52 AM  

Mr. Eugenides: /BTW, trucker is a very cromulent occupation in my estimation.


You don't need to know what "cromulent" means to earn $78K per year working in a cromulent occupation.
Yes, you too can net $51K per year driving a truck. If you have the balls.

/People like this are why our country sucks.
//Trolls, trolls, everywhere.
 
2014-05-03 11:52:46 AM  

Gary-L: $1,800 for a 17 year old?  Am I that damned senile to not understand that in addition to a paycheck comes the work experience along with a possible reference for the future, or am I being unreasonable?


I would argue that 'reference' has zero value. All a prospective future will care about is 'how cheaply can I hire you for'? Experience, training, and skills simply don't matter. And if they do, wel...you'll get $8 or $9 instead of $7.25. Whee.

I'm not saying that there's no benefit to the kids in working. There absolutely is, and they should work. But I can't argue with their not wanting to work a crappy, crappy job, for shiat wages. The opportunity cost definitely outweighs the very negligible material benefits.
 
2014-05-03 12:00:15 PM  
Take the shiatty job because you need SOME work experience to get hired anywhere else these days.
 
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