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(Reason Magazine)   Having solved all crimes, cops now decide to harass wheelchair bound vets and their service dogs outside the VA, preventing them from getting care, arresting them, charging for non-crimes and more   (reason.com) divider line 110
    More: Asinine, service dog, Todd MacRae, cops  
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11090 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 May 2014 at 1:25 AM (34 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



110 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-05-01 08:00:32 PM  
 
2014-05-01 08:08:47 PM  
So the dude was a giant dick to everybody at the hospital and the cops told him to f*ck off

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE
 
2014-05-01 08:35:01 PM  
They should pull themselves up by their bootstraps instead of demanding that the government take care of them
 
2014-05-01 08:36:31 PM  
VA doesn't give MMJ to patients in certified states but will pump them full of other meds that may be less effective and more harmful.

/outrage
 
2014-05-01 09:05:25 PM  
Disgraceful.
 
2014-05-01 09:10:22 PM  
"I told them, 'write me a ticket or shut the fark up,'" he said, acknowledging that he doesn't hesitate to speak his mind to the cops...

News Flash: Pissing off cops will get you hassled by them. Ric Romero has more at eleven.
 
2014-05-01 09:28:22 PM  
Well, that's a good Paul Ryan start.
 
2014-05-01 09:35:55 PM  
So this story has government healthcare, police abuse, and the war on terror.

That's a three-fer.  I think we get high taxes and gay marriage involved, and I'll get the BINGO.
 
2014-05-01 09:37:12 PM  
In other news, having COME from a family where my dad was a police chief, I have to really weep for the state of law enforcement in this country.  Sure are an awful lot of bad stories out there...

WTF
 
2014-05-01 09:37:37 PM  
Just because you're a vet and/or disabled doesn't mean you can't be a piece of shiat, and shouldn't give you a free pass for anything.
 
2014-05-01 09:38:30 PM  

fusillade762: "I told them, 'write me a ticket or shut the fark up,'" he said, acknowledging that he doesn't hesitate to speak his mind to the cops...

News Flash: Pissing off cops will get you hassled by them. Ric Romero has more at eleven.


Yeah, well, there's that, too.  I think there's a good instructional video by Chris Rock out there, somewhere....... words to live by.
 
2014-05-01 09:52:26 PM  

fusillade762: "I told them, 'write me a ticket or shut the fark up,'" he said, acknowledging that he doesn't hesitate to speak his mind to the cops...

News Flash: Pissing off cops will get you hassled by them. Ric Romero has more at eleven.


They should have written the ticket and STFU. Serving and protecting and such.
 
2014-05-01 10:05:57 PM  

Doktor_Zhivago: So the dude was a giant dick to everybody at the hospital and the cops told him to f*ck off

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE


Yeah, i was with him for a little bit, but it sounds like he was shiatty to the staff, shiatty to the cops, and then extra shiatty later.  He might have issues from the service, and the cops were being dicks, but he's not an aggrieved innocent.
 
2014-05-01 10:43:35 PM  

Lsherm: Doktor_Zhivago: So the dude was a giant dick to everybody at the hospital and the cops told him to f*ck off

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE

Yeah, i was with him for a little bit, but it sounds like he was shiatty to the staff, shiatty to the cops, and then extra shiatty later.  He might have issues from the service, and the cops were being dicks, but he's not an aggrieved innocent.


Somebody may have made a notation on his chart that all the people that can't think on their own were following, hence, the history of sh*t healthcare and attitudes.
 
2014-05-01 10:53:01 PM  

Lsherm: Doktor_Zhivago: So the dude was a giant dick to everybody at the hospital and the cops told him to f*ck off

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE

Yeah, i was with him for a little bit, but it sounds like he was shiatty to the staff, shiatty to the cops, and then extra shiatty later.  He might have issues from the service, and the cops were being dicks, but he's not an aggrieved innocent.


Hmm. I think I'm now in the same boat.
 
2014-05-01 11:37:29 PM  
Here is a direct link to the video (autoplay warning)  http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fe5_1398957592
 
2014-05-02 12:57:22 AM  

Beerguy: Here is a direct link to the video (autoplay warning)  http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fe5_1398957592


why dont more vets visit this police man to thank him for doing such a wonderful job?
seriously

my god ... the voice of the vet is almost a trigger in itself.
you can FEEL him struggling to keep his panic under control, to hold it all together
FFS
 
2014-05-02 01:29:58 AM  
Am I in time for the crucifixion?

www.aotg.com

I practiced my whistling and everything.  Oh look, popcorn!

/I'll just sit over here
//Enjoy yourselves, lads
 
2014-05-02 01:37:47 AM  
Non-crime.  It works.
 
2014-05-02 01:47:15 AM  
The cop ordered him off the hospital under threat of trespass arrest, which caused MacRae to miss his weekly appointment for his blood tests that enables him to survive despite having more than 20 pieces of metal in his neck.

That's right. He will die now because he didn't get his blood drawn. Thanks cops.

As soon as people start over-exaggerating it makes me think that they aren't being very honest about the whole situation.
 
2014-05-02 01:47:28 AM  
You know Reason... I think I'd drop this story. Not saying the cops are justified here but this guy is massively unsympathetic. If you are so hostile towards your doctor that they call the cops, you have an issue. Yes they may have been asking you about your drinking. Know why? Because it is a major health related issue so it is their business. If you then are a dick to the cops, well it isn't 100% surprising if they are dicks back. Doesn't mean they are right to do it, but you can't really act all surprised.

Seriously people, when you want to write stories about police abuse, don't pick the ones where the victim is a total d-bag. It really doesn't get people over to your viewpoint.
 
2014-05-02 01:49:25 AM  
Everyone who defends the cops actions deserves a nightstick's kiss or two the the back.
 
2014-05-02 01:54:58 AM  
VA doctors are the crappiest doctors still allowed to hold a medical license.

Most of them would get fired from a real hospital in two days.
 
2014-05-02 01:56:47 AM  

OnlyM3: That's right, it's the cops fault nobody gets treated at the VA
An elderly blind veteran crying in pain spent four hours and 45 minutes in the emergency room of the VA Medical Center in North Las Vegas before seeing a doctor in October, but federal inspectors said in a report Wednesday that such long waits were not unusual for patients at the hospital.

/// bush's fault


But we made Iraq and Afghanistan "better" and got to spend a bunch if money we didn't have on military adventures that went in to all the "right" peoples' pockets. And all these jacked-up vets, well it's not like they could have been working here at home producing anything, that's what outsourcing is for.
 
2014-05-02 01:57:06 AM  
Reason and Raw Story aren't even real organizations. All of our crazy family members got together because we stopped reading their email and they put the crap in a new format then paid Fark to publish it.
 
2014-05-02 01:57:58 AM  
post it, I meant.
 
2014-05-02 01:58:18 AM  
Zzzzzzz just another cop-hating circle jerk on Fark, nothing new.
 
2014-05-02 02:01:14 AM  
Some blame the guy, and some blame the cops.
How about some blame for the people who should have helped this guy, and the politicians who should have seen to it that there was funding and staff and facilities to help this guy?
When it's reached the point that the police are having to deal with a sick person, somebody hasn't done their job.
The oinkers aren't social workers or shrinks. They have to pick up the pieces after the social workers and shrinks have failed.
 
2014-05-02 02:01:33 AM  

sycraft: You know Reason... I think I'd drop this story. Not saying the cops are justified here but this guy is massively unsympathetic. If you are so hostile towards your doctor that they call the cops, you have an issue. Yes they may have been asking you about your drinking. Know why? Because it is a major health related issue so it is their business. If you then are a dick to the cops, well it isn't 100% surprising if they are dicks back. Doesn't mean they are right to do it, but you can't really act all surprised.

Seriously people, when you want to write stories about police abuse, don't pick the ones where the victim is a total d-bag. It really doesn't get people over to your viewpoint.


You are within your rights to be a dbag as long as you aren't breaking any laws. Watched this video earlier, not sure if the back story but the cops are the dbags here.
 
2014-05-02 02:09:49 AM  

BobTheHamster: As soon as people start over-exaggerating it makes me think that they aren't being very honest about the whole situation


I'm one of the more anti-cop Farkers here, and yeah, this seems like one of the least sympathetic defendants ever:
He says it all started when he ordered VA cops to leave the room while he was visiting his doctor. They were called when McRae got upset his doctor didn't accept his answer to a question about his drinking habits. He had calmed down by the time they got there, and the doctor said she could finish her appointment with McRae.

I mean, really... I've said that jury nullification for cop killers wouldn't necessarily be inappropriate, and even I think this guy is a douche.
 
2014-05-02 02:17:32 AM  

Doktor_Zhivago: So the dude was a giant dick to everybody at the hospital and the cops told him to f*ck off

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE


FTA: "McRae got upset his doctor didn't accept his answer to a question about his drinking habits. He had calmed down by the time they got there, and the doctor said she could finish her appointment with McRae."

If that sounds like being "a giant dick" to you, then I can tell you're a sensitive little flower that needs to be protected from the big bad mean world.

Old farking vet in huge amounts of pain because of 20 pieces of metal in his neck gets a bit upset with a female doctor giving him shiat about drinking too much. He didn't get violent, he yelled a bit, then calmed down. Suggesting that cops should deny him further medical treatment makes me want to punch you in your tiny little nutsack.

Old vets with shrapnel in their bodies, who are in pain aren't allowed to get upset and deserved to be harassed by farkwit cops? You're an assclown.
 
2014-05-02 02:21:51 AM  

sycraft: You know Reason... I think I'd drop this story. Not saying the cops are justified here but this guy is massively unsympathetic. If you are so hostile towards your doctor that they call the cops, you have an issue. Yes they may have been asking you about your drinking. Know why? Because it is a major health related issue so it is their business. If you then are a dick to the cops, well it isn't 100% surprising if they are dicks back. Doesn't mean they are right to do it, but you can't really act all surprised.

Seriously people, when you want to write stories about police abuse, don't pick the ones where the victim is a total d-bag. It really doesn't get people over to your viewpoint.


So what if the guy was an asshole?  Being impolite to a cop is not a crime.  So he deserved to be kicked out of the hospital on a future visit (under some "service dogs need muzzles" BS), and have his phone illegally taken away from him?   People in any job have to deal with assholes every single day.  Police probably deal with more of them, but anyone taking that job needs to be able to deal with it better than a teenager at a mcdonald's spitting in a customer's burger because the customer was rude.
 
2014-05-02 02:26:39 AM  

squirrelflavoredyogurt: If that sounds like being "a giant dick" to you, then I can tell you're a sensitive little flower that needs to be protected from the big bad mean world.


"How much do you regularly drink?"
"Wharrgarbl! I'll kill you!"
[cops called]
"Okay, I'll answer, it's all right... 'Not too much.' See? We're good."
 
2014-05-02 02:29:45 AM  

Prophet of Loss: Everyone who defends the cops actions deserves a nightstick's kiss or two the the back.


read: derpa derpa do
 
2014-05-02 02:36:32 AM  

ph0rk: Prophet of Loss: Everyone who defends the cops actions deserves a nightstick's kiss or two the the back.

read: derpa derpa do


You missed a spot near the heel.
 
2014-05-02 02:48:42 AM  
He says it all started when he ordered VA cops to leave the room while he was visiting his doctor. They were called when McRae got upset his doctor didn't accept his answer to a question about his drinking habits. He had calmed down by the time they got there, and the doctor said she could finish her appointment with McRae.

But when he shoots up the place it's, "WHY didn't somebody DOO something!!!"
 
2014-05-02 02:51:25 AM  

ph0rk: Prophet of Loss: Everyone who defends the cops actions deserves a nightstick's kiss or two the the back.

read: derpa derpa do


read: I get off on my tickets with my oral talents. /NTTIAWT
 
2014-05-02 02:54:05 AM  

Theaetetus: "How much do you regularly drink?"
"Wharrgarbl! I'll kill you!"
[cops called]
"Okay, I'll answer, it's all right... 'Not too much.' See? We're good."

McRae got upset his doctor didn't accept his answer to a question about his drinking habits.


Sounds like maybe she was calling him a liar.  Of course, if that set him off, maybe he's drinking too much in the first place.
 
2014-05-02 03:00:35 AM  

squirrelflavoredyogurt: Doktor_Zhivago: So the dude was a giant dick to everybody at the hospital and the cops told him to f*ck off

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE

FTA: "McRae got upset his doctor didn't accept his answer to a question about his drinking habits. He had calmed down by the time they got there, and the doctor said she could finish her appointment with McRae."

If that sounds like being "a giant dick" to you, then I can tell you're a sensitive little flower that needs to be protected from the big bad mean world.

Old farking vet in huge amounts of pain because of 20 pieces of metal in his neck gets a bit upset with a female doctor giving him shiat about drinking too much. He didn't get violent, he yelled a bit, then calmed down. Suggesting that cops should deny him further medical treatment makes me want to punch you in your tiny little nutsack.

Old vets with shrapnel in their bodies, who are in pain aren't allowed to get upset and deserved to be harassed by farkwit cops? You're an assclown.


If yelling a bit was enough to get the cops called by an offive clerk, I think we have massively different concepts of "yelled a bit".

Nobody is required to put up with your shiat, veteran or not. The guy with the manhood in question is the veteran who takes his issues out on a farking doctor. While you can walk legally walk down the street and tell a passing cop to go fark himself, you cannot order cops to leave you alone when they are investigatively detaining you after someone calls the cops on you. If you want to show that you are not an out of control jackass, continuing to act like a jackass is not a good idea.

This is an amusing thread though. Seeing people fawn over a veteran who cannot control himself and treat others decently biatch about cops, who are often veterans themselves, who may have failed the same test of proper social behavior, is pretty funny.

I also love the description of his previous charge, where the tfa takes us in a link. Gotta love one-sided reporting. Why no interview of the doctor, the clerk, the ex-wife, or any other witnesses than the guy's daughter? I might start buying newspaper subscriptions the way these articles go. You would think blogs had a cap on article size with how little info they generally contain. Am I the only one tired of stories with so little info that you practically have to make up the story yourself to form an opinion?

That said, cops: stop farking around with people for recording you. A. It is usually legal. B. It makes you look bad. C. It makes you look stupid. Don't be stupid.

Lastly: could submitters just link to the original story ffs? That goes to you too mods.
 
2014-05-02 03:01:08 AM  
My uncle just recently told me a story about a stay in the PA Veterans Hospital in Philly. He was there for about three months this trip. He's a combat wounded, 100% disabled , Marine Corp Vietnam Veteran . He is a super likable guy and dedicates a lot of his time helping vets. Anyhow, after a diet of the healthy stuff for most of his stay, he was allowed to eat what he wanted again, so he ordered a cheesesteak. The delivery guy arrived at 10:05PM and my Uncle had been waiting in the lobby for him to show up for a half hour. Food deliveries are supposed to stop at 10:00. The hospital guard waved the delivery man away and ignored my Uncle like a child. I know rules are rules, but come on. When you fark with a man's food and dignity, you're an asshole.
 
2014-05-02 03:25:21 AM  

Lsherm: Doktor_Zhivago: So the dude was a giant dick to everybody at the hospital and the cops told him to f*ck off

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE

Yeah, i was with him for a little bit, but it sounds like he was shiatty to the staff, shiatty to the cops, and then extra shiatty later.  He might have issues from the service, and the cops were being dicks, but he's not an aggrieved innocent.


So....had this been any other person being shiatty to the cops, then the cops are bad guys for being dicks; but since this guy is just a veteran who was a dick first, the cops get a pass this time because they're in the right for being dicks back? Or is it that we get angry with cops who are mean to mentally ill non-veterans who mouth off to them on the street, and only say "Well, they should have known, etc." once their service status is known to us?

I really can't keep up with the schizophrenic attitude Fark has towards cops. Either their brutal dickish thugs who should get no apologies when they mistreat someone (especially someone crazy or of color); or else it's meh, they got some attitude from this old fart who thought he was entitled (because of his age, wealth, prior military service) and it serves him right.

I'm not seeing any difference here, except in degree, between the treatment meted out to this guy and the fatal beating of Kelly Thomas: We have a person not quite right in the head, pissed off cops who feel their authority is being challenged, and a lot of people who are quite willing to let the cops do whatever they want because the mental case is annoying and also incapacitated. It's just that this time, the guy was just humiliated, inconvenienced and harassed for absolutely no reason in violation of half a dozen laws. I guess that's better than being beaten to death. But either cops are arrogant power-tripping thugs or they aren't. Pick one and go with it.
 
2014-05-02 03:27:17 AM  

sycraft: You know Reason... I think I'd drop this story. Not saying the cops are justified here but this guy is massively unsympathetic. If you are so hostile towards your doctor that they call the cops, you have an issue. Yes they may have been asking you about your drinking. Know why? Because it is a major health related issue so it is their business. If you then are a dick to the cops, well it isn't 100% surprising if they are dicks back. Doesn't mean they are right to do it, but you can't really act all surprised.

Seriously people, when you want to write stories about police abuse, don't pick the ones where the victim is a total d-bag. It really doesn't get people over to your viewpoint.


Unsympathetic people are the #1 tests of our justice system. You think Miranda was sympathetic? You think Fernandez was sympathetic? You think Rodney King was sympathetic? If being an asshole was all it took to strip away your rights and abuse you, we'd be Mad Max and Thunderdome, not the USA.

Obviously, regular people are well within their rights to be assholes to each other -- though employees have to worry about being fired -- and even cops have some flexibility in how courteously situations are handled, but when they cross over to violating rights, they deserve to be hung out to dry like the bullies they are. Cops and other government officials should have a somewhat higher bar thanks to the Constitution and basic professionalism.

Which is one reason section 1983 is such a farce. Practically every government official has total immunity for violating the rights of everyone around them until it becomes so egregious that even the courts can't look the other way anymore.
 
2014-05-02 03:29:46 AM  
That said, I have seen old vets be such giant abusive dickbag bullies that I'd like to pop them one. So no, I'm not buying the poor little vet angle, but in the end, when the doctor handled the situation and said it was cool that should have been the end of that. Kudos on the doc.
 
2014-05-02 03:47:57 AM  
Sounds like a shiatty situation for everyone involved. Neither the cops nor the vet have their hands clean.
 
2014-05-02 04:01:35 AM  
Also, it sounds like it wouldn't hurt for one of the doctors to go ahead and write this guy a prescription for Xanax.
 
2014-05-02 04:20:46 AM  

namatad: Beerguy: Here is a direct link to the video (autoplay warning)  http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fe5_1398957592

why dont more vets visit this police man to thank him for doing such a wonderful job?
seriously

my god ... the voice of the vet is almost a trigger in itself.
you can FEEL him struggling to keep his panic under control, to hold it all together
FFS



I read that as the cop not just harassing a disabled veteran, but deliberately trying to provoke a reaction from a service dog that would give him an excuse to kill/confiscate it.
 
2014-05-02 04:21:25 AM  

Theaetetus: BobTheHamster: As soon as people start over-exaggerating it makes me think that they aren't being very honest about the whole situation

I'm one of the more anti-cop Farkers here, and yeah, this seems like one of the least sympathetic defendants ever:
He says it all started when he ordered VA cops to leave the room while he was visiting his doctor. They were called when McRae got upset his doctor didn't accept his answer to a question about his drinking habits. He had calmed down by the time they got there, and the doctor said she could finish her appointment with McRae.

I mean, really... I've said that jury nullification for cop killers wouldn't necessarily be inappropriate, and even I think this guy is a douche.


A guy stuck in a wheelchair who's had a heart attack gets defensive when being called out for drinking. He and the doctor sort it out before the cops arrive. The doctor says she is satisfied and the cops can leave. They don't. They stay until they are ordered out. Then they wait for the guy, mess with him when he comes out give him a bill.

The difference here is the vet and the doc deescalated their situation. The cops and the vet were unable to do so. I'm siding with the vet here.
 
2014-05-02 05:05:45 AM  
At least he didn't cite his military service as justification for acting like a dick, so I give him points for that.

Obviously, he is a dick and unafraid to act like one and seems to embrace that persona with gusto.

The V.A. cops seem less than professional and unafraid to act like dicks as well.

All the makings of a reality TV show. The dog is a nice touch.

Since the dog wasn't shot and the vet wasn't beaten with batons, I'd say it's safe to move along; nothing to see here.
 
2014-05-02 05:53:58 AM  
I really hate backing the VA with as crap as they are, but damn dude....

I've been through VA appointments. They ask a standard battery of questions. Drink/smoke/illicit drug use and how much are standard almost everywhere nowdays, both for the immediate appointment, and to help direct patients towards future supportive care if need be.

I've also dealt with patients like this, so I kind of suspect it went down like this:
"So, any alcohol use? If so how much?"
"OMG lady why you wanna know how much I drink I'm just here for a checkup!"
"Sir, it's a standard question we ask every vet, it helps us get you help if needed."
"WTF YOU biatch YOU TRYING TO SAY I'M AN ALCOHOLIC YEAH fark YOU!"
"Security...."


Yeah, the VA cops are there for douchebros just like this.  Some of us just want to get to our appointments, deal with the red tape correctly, and be on our way without worrying about some jacked up gorm going apeshiat. Yes, they *DO* tag your file too if you act the fool, just so everyone can keep an eye on you.

Bro needs to deal with his anger issues, and treat others with the respect they deserve. Behave with some dignity, like a veteran is expected to.
 
2014-05-02 06:09:40 AM  
Aside the merits of this particular instance: I keep reading about police abuses in America, and the fact that a lot of positions in America are elected (sheriffs, DAs etc). So why not just vote the jackboots out?
 
2014-05-02 06:16:39 AM  

spiritplumber: Aside the merits of this particular instance: I keep reading about police abuses in America, and the fact that a lot of positions in America are elected (sheriffs, DAs etc). So why not just vote the jackboots out?


People who vote for abusive authorities believe they are not the (type of) people who will suffer the abuse.
 
2014-05-02 06:23:12 AM  

jso2897: Some blame the guy, and some blame the cops.

How about some blame for the people who should have helped this guy, and the politicians who should have seen to it that there was funding and staff and facilities to help this guy?

When it's reached the point that the police are having to deal with a sick person, somebody hasn't done their job.

The oinkers aren't social workers or shrinks. They have to pick up the pieces after the social workers and shrinks have failed.


Funny how there is funding for the VA to have its own cops. Is there a Fedefal zgency without its own armed law enforcement?.  Lack of funding, as with most things government, is not the problem. It is how the funding is spent. How much do those cops cost the VA?

How much good could the VA done it the $300 million the Feds wasted here were redirected to the VA.


Government has plenty of revenue (approx. $5.7 TRILLION for FY2014 all levels of government combined) they just spend it stupidly.
 
2014-05-02 06:27:50 AM  
the government hires only the best and brightest.
that said, don't be a dick to federal cops
that said, barney fife needs to watch his ass and be as nice as possible when working in a place where all of the visitors have been trained to end humans

it seems so simple, everyone lose the ego
 
2014-05-02 06:48:59 AM  

hasty ambush: jso2897: Some blame the guy, and some blame the cops.How about some blame for the people who should have helped this guy, and the politicians who should have seen to it that there was funding and staff and facilities to help this guy?When it's reached the point that the police are having to deal with a sick person, somebody hasn't done their job.The oinkers aren't social workers or shrinks. They have to pick up the pieces after the social workers and shrinks have failed.
Funny how there is funding for the VA to have its own cops. Is there a Fedefal zgency without its own armed law enforcement?.  Lack of funding, as with most things government, is not the problem. It is how the funding is spent. How much do those cops cost the VA?

How much good could the VA done it the $300 million the Feds wasted here were redirected to the VA.
Government has plenty of revenue (approx. $5.7 TRILLION for FY2014 all levels of government combined) they just spend it stupidly.


Yep - wasteful military spending, subsidies for agriculture and business, lavish tax breaks for the rich - you are dead right, brother.  But wow, the VA got a WHOLE 300 million dollars? Big spending there - why that's almost half the price of a shiatty jet fighter that won't fly in the rain. Imagine wasting all that money on the low-class malingeres that are left over after out little adventures!
Frankly, if they were smart, they never would have gone into the service, and expected any gratitude once their usefulness to the ruling class was expended.
 
2014-05-02 06:52:46 AM  
THIS is why if I ever see a cop trapped in a burning car, I'll get some high quality video footage of his/her/their death.
 
2014-05-02 07:04:10 AM  

OnlyM3: That's right, it's the cops fault nobody gets treated at the VA
An elderly blind veteran crying in pain spent four hours and 45 minutes in the emergency room of the VA Medical Center in North Las Vegas before seeing a doctor in October, but federal inspectors said in a report Wednesday that such long waits were not unusual for patients at the hospital.

/// bush's fault


I don't know about the North Las Vegas VA, but my father has been seen at the Portland, Oregon VA frequently in the last few years and I see nothing but compassionate care for veterans there. Maybe that blind guy's day in October was pretty bad, who is to say, but if the emergency room is so packed that they can't see you for four hours, there are plenty of people who are having a worse day than you.
 
2014-05-02 07:22:55 AM  
I just think all sides are wrong, at one point or another.
 
2014-05-02 07:24:27 AM  

sycraft: You know Reason... I think I'd drop this story. Not saying the cops are justified here but this guy is massively unsympathetic. If you are so hostile towards your doctor that they call the cops, you have an issue. Yes they may have been asking you about your drinking. Know why? Because it is a major health related issue so it is their business. If you then are a dick to the cops, well it isn't 100% surprising if they are dicks back. Doesn't mean they are right to do it, but you can't really act all surprised.

Seriously people, when you want to write stories about police abuse, don't pick the ones where the victim is a total d-bag. It really doesn't get people over to your viewpoint.


This.  The only thing this story pointed out is 1) the vet is a dick.  2) Cops hold grudges.
 
2014-05-02 07:29:21 AM  
The biggest problem (and flaw) with having a system wherein people represent and enforce laws is the people themselves.  Few people are utterly uncorruptable, noble and altruistic enough to be trusted as fair and impartial machines of justice.  Police robots will be beneficial, regardless of what science fiction has led Internet nerds to fear.
 
2014-05-02 07:30:40 AM  

wambu: At least he didn't cite his military service as justification for acting like a dick, so I give him points for that.

Obviously, he is a dick and unafraid to act like one and seems to embrace that persona with gusto.



Without knowing more about the story, I'm more likely to give him the benefit of the doubt.  He has shrapnel in his neck and is wheelchair bound, and though we're not given the details on how either of those happened, it certainly points to a pretty traumatic incident, one of the type that could really fark with your head.  And he's probably more than paraplegic since he also needs a service dog.

Obviously the safety of the doctor comes first, but shouldn't the VA be equipped to deal with possibly violent psych patients?  It certainly sounds to me like the LEOs got petty with him after he swore at them and acted completely unprofessionally.  But we're still short on the details.

Maybe I'm cutting the guy too much slack but I have a couple family members who've come back from Iraq and Afghanistan with mental health problems and drug abuse problems.  And since there's not really any other family history of these problems, it's pretty easy to say what caused them.  I feel pity for this guy.
 
2014-05-02 07:38:27 AM  

Begoggle: Zzzzzzz just another cop-hating circle jerk on Fark, nothing new.


Another copsucker on Fark.
Zzzzz
 
2014-05-02 07:38:42 AM  

EdNortonsTwin: OnlyM3: That's right, it's the cops fault nobody gets treated at the VA
An elderly blind veteran crying in pain spent four hours and 45 minutes in the emergency room of the VA Medical Center in North Las Vegas before seeing a doctor in October, but federal inspectors said in a report Wednesday that such long waits were not unusual for patients at the hospital.

/// bush's fault

But we made Iraq and Afghanistan "better" and got to spend a bunch if money we didn't have on military adventures that went in to all the "right" peoples' pockets. And all these jacked-up vets, well it's not like they could have been working here at home producing anything, that's what outsourcing is for.


Your point, what is it?
 
2014-05-02 07:41:02 AM  

Pattuq: The biggest problem (and flaw) with having a system wherein people represent and enforce laws is the people themselves.  Few people are utterly uncorruptable, noble and altruistic enough to be trusted as fair and impartial machines of justice.  Police robots will be beneficial, regardless of what science fiction has led Internet nerds to fear.


"YOU HAVE TEN SECONDS TO COMPLY"
 
2014-05-02 07:41:10 AM  

Pattuq: The biggest problem (and flaw) with having a system wherein people represent and enforce laws is the people themselves.  Few people are utterly uncorruptable, noble and altruistic enough to be trusted as fair and impartial machines of justice.  Police robots will be beneficial, regardless of what science fiction has led Internet nerds to fear.


We're not going to get autonomous police robots. We're going to get remote-presence police robots that let cops behave even worse but at zero personal risk.  Sorry.
 
2014-05-02 08:02:31 AM  
This story is too sensational to be 100% accurate.  There has got to be more to it.
 
2014-05-02 08:03:04 AM  

jso2897: hasty ambush: jso2897: Some blame the guy, and some blame the cops.How about some blame for the people who should have helped this guy, and the politicians who should have seen to it that there was funding and staff and facilities to help this guy?When it's reached the point that the police are having to deal with a sick person, somebody hasn't done their job.The oinkers aren't social workers or shrinks. They have to pick up the pieces after the social workers and shrinks have failed.
Funny how there is funding for the VA to have its own cops. Is there a Fedefal zgency without its own armed law enforcement?.  Lack of funding, as with most things government, is not the problem. It is how the funding is spent. How much do those cops cost the VA?

How much good could the VA done it the $300 million the Feds wasted here were redirected to the VA.
Government has plenty of revenue (approx. $5.7 TRILLION for FY2014 all levels of government combined) they just spend it stupidly.

Yep - wasteful military spending, subsidies for agriculture and business, lavish tax breaks for the rich - you are dead right, brother.  But wow, the VA got a WHOLE 300 million dollars? Big spending there - why that's almost half the price of a shiatty jet fighter that won't fly in the rain. Imagine wasting all that money on the low-class malingeres that are left over after out little adventures!
Frankly, if they were smart, they never would have gone into the service, and expected any gratitude once their usefulness to the ruling class was expended.

The VA budget for FY 2014 is about $160 BILLION  not $300 million.  That $300 million was an example of money wasted by OBAMACARE on Oregon's failed  website that could have been used for VA care, NASA  etc.


And you are right about Farm subsides (approx 35% of all farms) , a lot defense spending, but you can also include the waste fraud and abuse in every federal agency.  Include at least half of all Federal school lunch funding, MEDICARE, MEDICAID, GSA, etc, etc, etc.


But let us just look at the VA and then tell me again how they need more funding?


"A year after testifying that some executives received bonuses by manipulating appointment data for veterans needing mental health care, a former Department of Veterans Affairs hospital administrator said officials have avoided the issue "like the plague."

..

Overall, the VA paid out about $194 million in bonuses in 2011, according to testimony during the hearing."


Link
Congressmen from both sides of the aisle have ripped the Department of Veterans Affairs for spending at least $3 million on two training conferences in Florida last year where VA employees allegedly received gifts of watches, concert tickets, and spa treatments.

Some reports indicate the VA spent $5 million on the pair of conferences but had already appropriated another $4 million for additional programs. Filner put the amount spent between $3 million and $9 million.

The training programs now under the IG microscope were held last July and August. The IG was tipped off about the excessive costs and gift-giving through its hotline and began its investigation in April. That's when members of the HVAC were notified, according to Filner.

Link
WASHINGTON - Outside the Veterans Affairs Department, severely wounded veterans have faced financial hardship waiting for their first disability payment. Inside, money has been flowing in the form of $24 million in bonuses.

In scathing reports this week, the VA's inspector general said thousands of technology office employees at the VA received the bonuses over a two-year period, some under questionable circumstances. It also detailed abuses ranging from nepotism to an inappropriate relationship between two VA employees.

The inspector general accused one recently retired VA official of acting "as if she was given a blank checkbook" as awards and bonuses were distributed to employees of the Office of Information and Technology in 2007 and 2008. In some cases the justification for the bonuses was inadequate or questionable, the IG said.

Link

Despite backlogs, VA disability claims processors get bonuses
In 2011, a year in which the claims backlog ballooned by 155 percent, more than two-thirds of claims processors shared $5.5 million in bonuses, according to salary data from the Office of Personnel Management.

"There are many, many employees who are exceeding their minimum standards, and they deserve to be recognized for that," she said.

The Baltimore office, which has the longest wait times in the country, gave bonuses averaging $1,100 each to 40 percent of its workforce. The Oakland, Calif., office, which shut its doors to retrain underperforming employees, awarded nine out of every 10 workers a total of about $33,000

In Sioux Falls, S.D., claims workers processed claims four times as fast as those in Oakland and Baltimore but less than one in 10 there received extra pay last year.


Link
 
2014-05-02 08:10:25 AM  

hasty ambush: But let us just look at the VA and then tell me again how they need more funding?


I do not presume to know whether the VA has "enough" funding. I would be a fool to do so.
So would anybody else on these forums.
It's good to remember that taking care of what's left of the people who fight our mostly frivolous wars is an extremely expensive, long term business - and the same assholes who are always in a big fat hurry to get us into one are always reluctant when it comes to paying for the collateral damage.
Maybe we should give it a good hard think the next time some shiathead wants us to jump on our big white charger and go "save" (I.E - reduse to rubble) some turd world shiathole on the other side of the planet. .
 
2014-05-02 08:10:44 AM  
Difficult call here, dude sounds like a bit of a dick, but, he is there to receive care for whatever his problems are, including alcoholism. Having him abused by uniformed thugs is not right.
 
2014-05-02 08:22:07 AM  

hasty ambush: "There are many, many employees who are exceeding their minimum standards, and they deserve to be recognized for that," she said.


You recognize people who exceed their minimium standards by not firing them.

You recognize people who do above average (or above a certain %) for the orginization with bonuses.

hasty ambush: The Oakland, Calif., office, which shut its doors to retrain underperforming employees, awarded nine out of every 10 workers a total of about $33,000

In Sioux Falls, S.D., claims workers processed claims four times as fast as those in Oakland and Baltimore but less than one in 10 there received extra pay last year


This upsets me to no end.

There are people in the govt who know how to do it better.

Why is the management in Baltimore and Oakland not following what is done in SD?
 
2014-05-02 08:29:42 AM  

Bslim: Difficult call here, dude sounds like a bit of a dick, but, he is there to receive care for whatever his problems are, including alcoholism. Having him abused by uniformed thugs is not right.


Well, cops suck at this kind of thing. The failure point was where this guy's problems were allowed to escalate to the point that they called the cops on him. At that point, the day was already lost - a couple of GEDs whose skillset consists of keeping the public order are, unsurprisingly, ill equipped to deal with the mentally ill. It's a tragedy that gets repeated all over the country every day.
 
2014-05-02 08:44:06 AM  

liam76: hasty ambush: "There are many, many employees who are exceeding their minimum standards, and they deserve to be recognized for that," she said.

You recognize people who exceed their minimium standards by not firing them.

You recognize people who do above average (or above a certain %) for the orginization with bonuses.

hasty ambush: The Oakland, Calif., office, which shut its doors to retrain underperforming employees, awarded nine out of every 10 workers a total of about $33,000

In Sioux Falls, S.D., claims workers processed claims four times as fast as those in Oakland and Baltimore but less than one in 10 there received extra pay last year

This upsets me to no end.

There are people in the govt who know how to do it better.

Why is the management in Baltimore and Oakland not following what is done in SD?



I suspect VA's answer would be that every region has differing amounts of caseload, case complexity, and such, so it'd be unfair to judge all regional offices off the same metric.  They also most likely use a shifting time window to average case completion time, to compensate for differing workloads in the same region throughout the year.  Tie that in with the Feds slavish devotion to the regs and rules, and you have an easy to manipulate system.

The only way I can work it out, is VA has something like a percent improvement in case completion time from last reporting window, to qualify for bonuses.  If Region X is at the top end of completion ability, they'll never hit that percent improvement metric to qualify for bonuses.  last month 30 cases a day, this month 31 a day, not good enough.

Now, if Region Y is a bunch of dirtbags, and only clears 3 cases a reporting period, goes to training, and suddenly is clearing 6 cases a period, that's an "amazing" improvement! Bonus time.

In my compensation re-eval, my file sat for almost 10 months without a doctors appt made. All of a sudden, I had eval appointments and testing every other day, and the rater had a decision down on paper and delivered before I'd even finished all the doctor ordered tests.  Found out a few weeks later that regional office had gotten bonuses for an "amazing reduction in average resolution times".
 
2014-05-02 08:56:11 AM  
So it's ok that he was a dick to his doctor who probably told him "yea, your excessive drinking is contributing to your blood issues so please stop". He doesn't like that answer and becomes more of a dick and she has to call security because she too feared for her safety. So you Farkers focus on how bad the cops are? Sounds about right.
 
2014-05-02 08:57:07 AM  

Endive Wombat: This story is too sensational to be 100% accurate.  There has got to be more to it.


Ding ding ding!  We have a winner.  The article reads like a heavily edited version of only one side of the story.  Back in the days when there were actual journalistic standards, the cops and the doctor would be given a chance to tell their side of the story.  Where's the "The VA cops refused to comment" or "the doctor declined an interview."

Reading the link in TFA tells me this guy is also a convicted felon currently on probation, something Reason couldn't be bothered to tell us I guess.
 
2014-05-02 08:57:40 AM  

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: I suspect VA's answer would be that every region has differing amounts of caseload, case complexity, and such, so it'd be unfair to judge all regional offices off the same metric.


Wellt hey shoudl be all judged off the same metric, not saying case load alone is perfect for that, but it shoudl be the same. If you are going to factor in complexity, great but do it the same everywhere. I was assuming the quoted VA official was correct, and in no organization shoudl simply meetingt he minimium be rewarded.


IsThatYourFinalAnswer: The only way I can work it out, is VA has something like a percent improvement in case completion time from last reporting window, to qualify for bonuses. If Region X is at the top end of completion ability, they'll never hit that percent improvement metric to qualify for bonuses. last month 30 cases a day, this month 31 a day, not good enough.


I could be wrong, but knowing the fed I doubt the rewards scheme is that complex.

Even if that is true they system needs an overhaul if the shiat performers are getting more than the good ones.
 
2014-05-02 09:00:21 AM  

KeelingLovesCornholes: So it's ok that he was a dick to his doctor who probably told him "yea, your excessive drinking is contributing to your blood issues so please stop". He doesn't like that answer and becomes more of a dick and she has to call security because she too feared for her safety, but then tells the cops they can leave because he calmed down. Then the cops lie or demonstrate their incometentcy by saying he can't have hsi service dog wihtout a muzzle in the hospital. Then the cops lie or demonstrate their incomeptency a secodn time by saying he can't record them. So you Farkers focus on how bad the cops are? Sounds about right.


FTFY.

Of course your omission soulds abotu right for a boot licker who think cops should be able to mkae up bs and harass peopel just because they weren't polite to them.
 
2014-05-02 09:08:54 AM  
The difference in rewards is rather simple.


Uncle sam throws money at problems, not at things that work as intended.
 
2014-05-02 09:09:19 AM  
late to the party yaddayadda yah. I am a veteran. I have been through the whole sheebang. VA cops are mostly vets themselves so most of them know how to treat vets etc. That being said its usually the newbie civilians that have the most issues with vets and tend to be rather quick on the panic button. Once the panic button is pressed the cops must make out a report and they must make sure the person who pressed it isn't saying its OK go away under duress. Some vets are under the influence and need the cops to come in and quiet things down. some don't. Frustration with the system is the biggest issue anyone has with the system and a lot of the workers do nothing to alleviate that stress and frustration. I award points to both sides for bad behavior.
 
2014-05-02 09:11:44 AM  

Persnickety: Endive Wombat: This story is too sensational to be 100% accurate.  There has got to be more to it.

Ding ding ding!  We have a winner.  The article reads like a heavily edited version of only one side of the story.  Back in the days when there were actual journalistic standards, the cops and the doctor would be given a chance to tell their side of the story.  Where's the "The VA cops refused to comment" or "the doctor declined an interview."

Reading the link in TFA tells me this guy is also a convicted felon currently on probation, something Reason couldn't be bothered to tell us I guess.


Unfortunately for the cops, they rarely do much press commentary in cases that could turn into an investigation. But even with that, there are other witnesses the reporters can question.
 
2014-05-02 09:33:06 AM  
kinda sounds like the setup for a bad joke.

two dicks walk into a doctor's office...
 
2014-05-02 09:44:26 AM  
So, cops are allowed to deny access to medical treatment to somebody who needs it ? Seriously ?

It doesn't matter if the guy was or wasn't a giant a-hole, for the cops to deny him his medical appointment is just unconscionable. To do it for completely invented charges should be a crime.

"Witness what can happen when government and healthcare collides in the worse way."

Let me see if I understand this statement: the cops acted badly, therefore governement healthcare is bad. Did I understand correctly ?
 
2014-05-02 09:58:45 AM  
Pimparoo:  Neither the cops nor the vet have their hands clean.

That is status quo for the Police and Military in every country with a private central bank.
 
2014-05-02 10:02:10 AM  
If he had access to Marijuana this never would have happened.
 
2014-05-02 10:57:26 AM  
Doktor_Zhivago
So the dude was a giant dick to everybody at the hospital and the cops told him to f*ck off
THIS IS AN OUTRAGE


Actually he told the cop to fark off and tried to record the cop. Then he was moved to be given a disorderly conduct summons and then asked by the cop why his service dog was not muzzled.

Where is being a dick illegal? I suppose there is the contempt of cop law.

Two douches going at it I suppose.
 
2014-05-02 11:36:59 AM  

Doktor_Zhivago: So the dude was a giant dick to everybody at the hospital and the cops told him to f*ck off

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE


Which would have been fine. But ambushing the dude and harassing him about his dog, and trying to eject him from the premises a week after the initial incident is wrong, and also a crime under TN state law.
 
2014-05-02 12:00:45 PM  
This douche deserved to get arrested, non story.

On a side note about VA healthcare, I have had many awesome doctors at the VA, sadly they don't tend to stay long and head off to greener pastures. The last good one I had she was with the VA for 7 months before she left. When I inquired about her departure she pretty much told me it was a nightmare working for the VA, the regulations and restrictions imposed on them, the ridiculous time frames for anything to happen. She told me to just get a primary outside the VA system and to stay away from the VA if at all possible. Told her I have always had a primary outside the VA but just go to the VA for service connected issues to keep the documentation going. Hopefully with the new healthcare law we don't start to see the private sector starting to mirror the issues that the VA has.
 
2014-05-02 12:11:38 PM  

hasty ambush: but you can also include the waste fraud and abuse in every federal agency


One of the first supervisors I had in federal service outside of the military was quasi demoted by being forced to transferred to another state in a different position due to him saving our sector over 600k a year two years in a row. Guess he got a chewing out the first year, told not to do it again and after the second year it was transfer time. Was my first introduction to not letting your budget not get used in the federal system, better to spend that money on not needed things over you possibly having your budget shrink.
 
2014-05-02 12:22:05 PM  

xanadian: So this story has government healthcare, police abuse, and the war on terror.

That's a three-fer.  I think we get high taxes and gay marriage involved, and I'll get the BINGO.


I had gun control and Animal Abuse on my card, so BINGO!!!!

What do I win?
 
2014-05-02 12:48:42 PM  
Cops harassing Vets. Where have I seen that before?

www.screeninsults.com

That's what happens when you draw first blood.
 
2014-05-02 01:05:33 PM  

dropdfun: hasty ambush: but you can also include the waste fraud and abuse in every federal agency

One of the first supervisors I had in federal service outside of the military was quasi demoted by being forced to transferred to another state in a different position due to him saving our sector over 600k a year two years in a row. Guess he got a chewing out the first year, told not to do it again and after the second year it was transfer time. Was my first introduction to not letting your budget not get used in the federal system, better to spend that money on not needed things over you possibly having your budget shrink.


Lots of medical facilities and government agencies create budgets for the next year based on what was spent over the last year.
So, if all of a sudden you NEED more money for improvements or more patients coming into your facility, you have no cash and have to apply for additional money, which in reality, doesn't get handed to you until the next fiscal year.

What should happen instead of only allowing for operating costs alone, is to have a 25% addition onto the budget to allow for such situations, but then you run into USPS problems i.e.

Fund Supplier: "You're making too much money- you have this pool of money just left over wallowing collecting interest; you have to do something with it- we MANDATE you have to put it into your Retirement funds"
Fund User: "Well, yes we have some money free, but we need to update the fleet of trucks with new tires this year, and we were hoping to also save that money, so we can add new postalfacilities to the following counties as we've gotten complaints form some consumers" *Fund Supplier has ignored your financial planning arguments*

The other side is the corrupt officials who just want that money to hang around, end up "saving 10% across the board" this year, and getting a kickback bonus as a result, when they could have saved 45%, but ended up not getting a scaled bonus for that, and losing being able to claim that money on next year's budget.
 
2014-05-02 01:43:35 PM  

dropdfun: This douche deserved to get arrested, non story.

On a side note about VA healthcare, I have had many awesome doctors at the VA, sadly they don't tend to stay long and head off to greener pastures. The last good one I had she was with the VA for 7 months before she left. When I inquired about her departure she pretty much told me it was a nightmare working for the VA, the regulations and restrictions imposed on them, the ridiculous time frames for anything to happen. She told me to just get a primary outside the VA system and to stay away from the VA if at all possible. Told her I have always had a primary outside the VA but just go to the VA for service connected issues to keep the documentation going. Hopefully with the new healthcare law we don't start to see the private sector starting to mirror the issues that the VA has.


On what basis ?
 
2014-05-02 01:49:54 PM  

BobTheHamster: The cop ordered him off the hospital under threat of trespass arrest, which caused MacRae to miss his weekly appointment for his blood tests that enables him to survive despite having more than 20 pieces of metal in his neck.

That's right. He will die now because he didn't get his blood drawn. Thanks cops.

As soon as people start over-exaggerating it makes me think that they aren't being very honest about the whole situation.


The blood tests are probably about monitoring the level of some critical medicine with a narrow therapeutic range.
 
2014-05-02 01:51:13 PM  
Contempt of cop is not a crime.
 
2014-05-02 01:59:52 PM  

washington-babylon: Doktor_Zhivago: So the dude was a giant dick to everybody at the hospital and the cops told him to f*ck off

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE

Which would have been fine. But ambushing the dude and harassing him about his dog, and trying to eject him from the premises a week after the initial incident is wrong, and also a crime under TN state law.


Still don't have the full story, who is to say this mans demeanor and attitude was not directed at someone else earlier and complaints were made before the VA police officer arrived on the scene for his interwebs film debut? Also I don't know why anyone would want to be VA police, they don't even get government law enforcement pay, just regular GS scale.
 
2014-05-02 02:24:44 PM  

Doktor_Zhivago: So the dude was a giant dick to everybody at the hospital and the cops told him to f*ck off

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE


This. The guy was out of line.

Also, Reason has it slightly wrong: the VA is not Tennessee property, it is a federal reservation, just like a military post. State law doesn't apply; federal law does.

Having said that, I have no idea what federal law is regarding the photographing/recording of LEOs on the job is.

I have gotten away with telling doctors at the VA to fark off, and with coming out of my chair--however, those doctors were well known to be provocative (I also have a TBI and PTSD, so that gets me a little more slack, but that doesn't excuse me from bad behavior, either--and anyone who uses it as an excuse is wrong for doing so). One was older than dirt and thought women should not be veterans--and told us that to our faces, and one caused me to miscarry, did not follow up, and several months later, I had to have a hysterectomy because of her malpractice. After the surgery, I learned from the patient advocate that I was not the first female veteran she had done that to. She was barred from practicing on female veterans. I feel bad for the male veterans...

The VA cops were wrong for harassing him about his dog because the dog is fully permitted under federal law. But the guy is a douche and is being treated like one. No story here.
 
2014-05-02 03:06:01 PM  

OnlyM3: That's right, it's the cops fault nobody gets treated at the VA
An elderly blind veteran crying in pain spent four hours and 45 minutes in the emergency room of the VA Medical Center in North Las Vegas before seeing a doctor in October, but federal inspectors said in a report Wednesday that such long waits were not unusual for patients at the hospital.

/// bush's fault


The first pathetic troll to rush in to the defense of another lunatic also off his meds, shocking!
 
2014-05-02 03:11:40 PM  

Aigoo: Doktor_Zhivago: So the dude was a giant dick to everybody at the hospital and the cops told him to f*ck off

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE

This. The guy was out of line.

Also, Reason has it slightly wrong: the VA is not Tennessee property, it is a federal reservation, just like a military post. State law doesn't apply; federal law does.

Having said that, I have no idea what federal law is regarding the photographing/recording of LEOs on the job is.

I have gotten away with telling doctors at the VA to fark off, and with coming out of my chair--however, those doctors were well known to be provocative (I also have a TBI and PTSD, so that gets me a little more slack, but that doesn't excuse me from bad behavior, either--and anyone who uses it as an excuse is wrong for doing so). One was older than dirt and thought women should not be veterans--and told us that to our faces, and one caused me to miscarry, did not follow up, and several months later, I had to have a hysterectomy because of her malpractice. After the surgery, I learned from the patient advocate that I was not the first female veteran she had done that to. She was barred from practicing on female veterans. I feel bad for the male veterans...

The VA cops were wrong for harassing him about his dog because the dog is fully permitted under federal law. But the guy is a douche and is being treated like one. No story here.


With the owner's behavior I wouldn't be surprised if the dog went from calm to aggressive, taking its cue from the old blowhard.
 
2014-05-02 03:20:07 PM  
Smackledorfer:

With the owner's behavior I wouldn't be surprised if the dog went from calm to aggressive, taking its cue from the old blowhard.


In fairness, that's what a dog is supposed to do; support his/her owner, regardless.
 
2014-05-02 03:22:40 PM  

hasty ambush: But let us just look at the VA and then tell me again how they need more funding?


hasty ambush: The VA budget for FY 2014 is about $160 BILLION



There are over 5.5 million disabled veterans according to data I found from 2008. The number is much higher today.

Going by 2008 numbers, that is a yearly budget of $28,000 for each hospital to care for each of them, and provide medical care to any veteran. Total number of veterans is over 23.2 million. 65 and older veterans are over 9 million in total. All these people receive care at VA hospitals that are funded by the number you provided.

Why do you think only 160 billion is enough money to provide adequate care to such a large number? Do you really think they can not only hire enough qualified doctors nurses and support staff, but also fund the huge bureaucracy required to process applications?
 
2014-05-02 03:44:55 PM  

spiritplumber: Smackledorfer:

With the owner's behavior I wouldn't be surprised if the dog went from calm to aggressive, taking its cue from the old blowhard.


In fairness, that's what a dog is supposed to do; support his/her owner, regardless.


Agreed. Not knocking the dog at all.
 
2014-05-02 05:09:19 PM  

Bob Robert: hasty ambush: But let us just look at the VA and then tell me again how they need more funding?

hasty ambush: The VA budget for FY 2014 is about $160 BILLION


There are over 5.5 million disabled veterans according to data I found from 2008. The number is much higher today.

Going by 2008 numbers, that is a yearly budget of $28,000 for each hospital to care for each of them, and provide medical care to any veteran. Total number of veterans is over 23.2 million. 65 and older veterans are over 9 million in total. All these people receive care at VA hospitals that are funded by the number you provided.

Why do you think only 160 billion is enough money to provide adequate care to such a large number? Do you really think they can not only hire enough qualified doctors nurses and support staff, but also fund the huge bureaucracy required to process applications?



Part of the problem is that you think of it as only $160 billion dollars. that is a lot of money-plenty of money.

Look at it this way . The UK National Heath Service (NHS) plans on spending about $163 billion dollars or a little less than $3000 per capita on health care in 2014. (depending conversion rate from pounds to dollars I use 1=1.5)


Link


Not all veterans receive care from the VA. I am veteran and the only veteran benefits I have used was the Old GI Bill and buying land through the Stare of Texas Veterans program. I managed to escape without in permanent service connected injuries or illnesses and I have adequate insurance so I don't need to burden the VA. I could use it if I wanted to but better those resources go to a Vet that really needs them.


I know some older WWII- Korea-Vietnam types who do for minor stuff like hearing aids and eyeglasses
.For the most part they prefer the private sector care for the major stuff if they want to be seen quickly.using Tricare-Medicare depending on their circumstances. I know most of the younger ones who have it prefer their private insurance for any non-service connected stuff that comes up.
Other than some Meds and checkups most them are not using your $28,000 worth of care either.

A disable vet can be anybody with a light but qualifying hearing loss to the truly disabled. So that money is not spread around equally per vet.


Ii would also mention that we are, sadly, losing our WWII and Korea vets at a high rate so the biggest work load on the VA health system will be decreasing since veterans are becoming a smaller and smaller part of the population.
 
2014-05-02 05:19:18 PM  
 All I need to know is that both people had sworn to defend and uphold the constitution and one of them was not doing that.

That aside the guy sounds like a complete lunatic and I feel sorry for anyone without a phd in psychiatry that has to deal with him.
 
2014-05-02 05:22:01 PM  

hasty ambush: plenty of money


You have done nothing to show it is plenty of money. I showed that it is not enough to properly cover millions of veterans with disabilities who require expensive long term care.

Your one example is the British NHS, I find it hilarious that now conservatives are championing the NHS, how self serving.

hasty ambush: So that money is not spread around equally per vet.


Where did I claim it was?

hasty ambush: Ii would also mention that we are, sadly, losing our WWII and Korea vets at a high rate so the biggest work load on the VA health system will be decreasing since veterans are becoming a smaller and smaller part of the population.


The opposite is true, veterans of todays wars are getting older, and all those people you claim don't need the VA, like here:

hasty ambush: Not all veterans receive care from the VA.


Is going to change drastically when all of the 20-30 year old veterans start getting close to retirement age.
 
2014-05-02 05:34:44 PM  
I bet those cops feel like big men pushing around a disabled vet. Someone should send their pussy asses into war and see how friendly they are after being wounded and confined to a wheelchair.
 
2014-05-02 05:48:03 PM  

Bob Robert: hasty ambush: plenty of money

You have done nothing to show it is plenty of money. I showed that it is not enough to properly cover millions of veterans with disabilities who require expensive long term care.

Your one example is the British NHS, I find it hilarious that now conservatives are championing the NHS, how self serving.

hasty ambush: So that money is not spread around equally per vet.

Where did I claim it was?

hasty ambush: Ii would also mention that we are, sadly, losing our WWII and Korea vets at a high rate so the biggest work load on the VA health system will be decreasing since veterans are becoming a smaller and smaller part of the population.

The opposite is true, veterans of todays wars are getting older, and all those people you claim don't need the VA, like here:

hasty ambush: Not all veterans receive care from the VA.

Is going to change drastically when all of the 20-30 year old veterans start getting close to retirement age.


1. I am not "championing it" merely but point out that  the UK funds care for far more people with roughly the same amount of money.  Comparing government health care to government health care.


2.Today's war veterans will be getting older but their are far fewer of them compared to WWII or even the cold war.  Look at the size of today's military compared to that of 1945, 1968, 1992.  Veterans are not increasing in number numerically or as percentage of the population as a whole.  The inverse is true.

WWII veterans are dying  at the rate of about 670 a day, there are only about 1.7 million left out of a total of 16 million WWII veterans as of last year.. There are not even 1.7 million  active duty military personnel right now.  The work load for the VA is going to decrease over time-simple demographics.will mean not only fewer veterans but the need to shift resources as the in terms of care and locations as the veteran facilities in once heavy veteran populated areas and opening new ones in areas that have more.
 
2014-05-02 06:00:42 PM  

hasty ambush: 1. I am not "championing it" merely but point out that the UK funds care for far more people with roughly the same amount of money. Comparing government health care to government health care.


The NHS budget is much larger than the tax revenues taken from citizens. It relies mostly on charities to give care and fund hospitals. The budget is mostly for procedures and prescriptions.

hasty ambush: 2.Today's war veterans will be getting older but their are far fewer of them compared to WWII or even the cold war. Look at the size of today's military compared to that of 1945, 1968, 1992. Veterans are not increasing in number numerically or as percentage of the population as a whole. The inverse is true.


There are larger percentages of disabled veterans today than there were in previous years.

hasty ambush: WWII veterans are dying at the rate of about 670 a day, there are only about 1.7 million left out of a total of 16 million WWII veterans as of last year.. There are not even 1.7 million active duty military personnel right now. The work load for the VA is going to decrease over time-simple demographics.will mean not only fewer veterans but the need to shift resources as the in terms of care and locations as the veteran facilities in once heavy veteran populated areas and opening new ones in areas that have more.


The WWII veterans still alive have not been sitting on disability for over 70 years. They were the healthy ones.

The workload may decrease over time, but we are talking about proper funding TODAY to take care of veterans. You continue to provide no evidence that their budget is "big enough"
 
2014-05-02 06:30:00 PM  

Bob Robert: hasty ambush: 1. I am not "championing it" merely but point out that the UK funds care for far more people with roughly the same amount of money. Comparing government health care to government health care.

The NHS budget is much larger than the tax revenues taken from citizens. It relies mostly on charities to give care and fund hospitals. The budget is mostly for procedures and prescriptions.

hasty ambush: 2.Today's war veterans will be getting older but their are far fewer of them compared to WWII or even the cold war. Look at the size of today's military compared to that of 1945, 1968, 1992. Veterans are not increasing in number numerically or as percentage of the population as a whole. The inverse is true.

There are larger percentages of disabled veterans today than there were in previous years.

hasty ambush: WWII veterans are dying at the rate of about 670 a day, there are only about 1.7 million left out of a total of 16 million WWII veterans as of last year.. There are not even 1.7 million active duty military personnel right now. The work load for the VA is going to decrease over time-simple demographics.will mean not only fewer veterans but the need to shift resources as the in terms of care and locations as the veteran facilities in once heavy veteran populated areas and opening new ones in areas that have more.

The WWII veterans still alive have not been sitting on disability for over 70 years. They were the healthy ones.

The workload may decrease over time, but we are talking about proper funding TODAY to take care of veterans. You continue to provide no evidence that their budget is "big enough"

 


1.



1.NHS citation?

2.Those 70 years old are not so healthy now. The VA is not just treating service connected injuries and illness but almost everything else as well

One of my suggested quick fixes for the VA til it gets it act together (probably never) is that it treat only service connected injuries and illnesses.

If a veteran upon leaving the service becomes overweight , does not exercise, smokes 4 packs a day, drinks too much etc, etc, why should the tax payers be stuck the care costs? Those resources would be better utilized by taking care of veterans with service connected problems.


3. Casualty rates both injuries and death are way down from previous wars

During World War II the daily losses (wounded and Killed) per American division were usually over a hundred a day in combat and remained about the same in Korea and Vietnam

In the first Gulf War there were 12 American casualties a day per division.

In 2004, there were 4.5 casualties per division per day, in 2005, that went down to about 3.5. The casualty rate was lower in Afghanistan.

Link

3.Projected Veteran Population 2010 to 2040

4. There is plenty of proof that the VA is inefficient corrupt and wasteful (I have posted examples) You have offered no proof it is underfunded.. The evidence points not to a funding problem but a fraud, waste and corruption problem
 
2014-05-02 07:05:14 PM  
"McRae got upset his doctor didn't accept his answer to a question about his drinking habits."

I know almost exactly the feeling.  I've been to a few psychological screenings for employment (law enforcement) and there is always, ALWAYS a part where the shrink you go to see does an alcohol screen in either oral or written questions.  100% of the time they always circle back and want to argue with me that my answers are wrong.  It always ends up with me coming very close to screaming "WHAT PART OF I DON'T DRINK DO YOU FAIL TO UNDERSTAND?!"
 
2014-05-02 10:26:38 PM  
Argh it didn't post my reply. Here is a quick one

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHS_foundation_trust

2. Barely any of those older vets are disabled, and they are all covered under other health care like medicare.

3. Where did I comopare casualty rates? the disabled today are 20-30 year olds, that is expensive to take care of them

4.You have given zero examples of waste
 
2014-05-02 10:47:40 PM  

mrmopar5287: "McRae got upset his doctor didn't accept his answer to a question about his drinking habits."

I know almost exactly the feeling.  I've been to a few psychological screenings for employment (law enforcement) and there is always, ALWAYS a part where the shrink you go to see does an alcohol screen in either oral or written questions.  100% of the time they always circle back and want to argue with me that my answers are wrong.  It always ends up with me coming very close to screaming "WHAT PART OF I DON'T DRINK DO YOU FAIL TO UNDERSTAND?!"


Yes, you sound exactly like the level-headed sober person I'd like to have in a law enforcement position.

Frankly, I'd rather have a calm drunk than an angry teetotaler as a cop.
 
2014-05-03 11:35:07 AM  

Lsherm: mrmopar5287: "McRae got upset his doctor didn't accept his answer to a question about his drinking habits."

I know almost exactly the feeling.  I've been to a few psychological screenings for employment (law enforcement) and there is always, ALWAYS a part where the shrink you go to see does an alcohol screen in either oral or written questions.  100% of the time they always circle back and want to argue with me that my answers are wrong.  It always ends up with me coming very close to screaming "WHAT PART OF I DON'T DRINK DO YOU FAIL TO UNDERSTAND?!"

Yes, you sound exactly like the level-headed sober person I'd like to have in a law enforcement position.

Frankly, I'd rather have a calm drunk than an angry teetotaler as a cop.


It's not an anger issue.  As I said, I come *close* to screaming, but I keep it in check because it is just internally frustrating when people fail to listen.

It goes like this in my current position: I do not tolerate second guessing of my answers from my superiors, peers, or subordinates.  If someone is asking me a question it is because they are not a mind reader, need me to answer, and when I give an answer I have expectations that my answers will be heard clearly and not questioned.  Simple as that.  I don't go about tolerating people asking me the equivalent of "Are you sure?" because that is a question that insults my honesty and integrity.  It is calling me a liar to my face, and if people are going to do that they they should not have hired and promoted me to my current position if they intend to question anything that I say.
 
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