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(Orlando Sentinel)   Residents, sick of Disney, Universal, and SeaWorld, rush to ride Florida's newest attraction: commuter rail   (thesent.nl) divider line 49
    More: Florida, SeaWorld, DeBary SunRail, Disney, commuters, Florida Department of Transportation, Church Street, De Bary  
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3174 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 May 2014 at 2:38 PM (13 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



49 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-05-01 01:13:12 PM
+1 on the headline.

And while it is funny about us locals, it does make me think of the tourists I see in the parks.  They spend god knows how much money to see the sights, go to shows, ride the rides, etc.  And yet they're fascinated by the dumbest, most common things.

They're are fixated on all the squirrels like they were farking unicorns.  Pretty much everyone has squirrels where they come from.

Them:  "Oh, look at the cute little tame squirrel!  Sylvia, take a picture!"

Me:  "Ahem."  [points to giant underwater tank]  "Whale!"
 
2014-05-01 01:22:54 PM
So it looks like it skips all of the theme parks as well as the airport. That'll do.
www.trbimg.com
 
2014-05-01 01:27:36 PM

stpauler: So it looks like it skips all of the theme parks as well as the airport. That'll do.
[www.trbimg.com image 668x1451]


Bet that pisses Disney off.

They've been trying for like forever to get a direct train line from the airport to their park.  The local transportation companies are like, "Um...no."

It's an interesting choice of route.  But it's nice to have something that serves the locals for a change.  What Phase I might assist with is some employment mobility.
 
2014-05-01 01:39:18 PM
glutenfreetastetest.com
 
2014-05-01 01:40:29 PM
Headline "Huge crowds"
Video Story:  7 people
 
2014-05-01 01:49:31 PM
The only rail I'm interested in at the moment in florida is the new seven dwarves mine ride at the Magic Kingdom.  Hopefully it'll be open to the public soon since they had a press event yesterday.
 
2014-05-01 01:59:07 PM

labman: The only rail I'm interested in at the moment in florida is the new seven dwarves mine ride at the Magic Kingdom.  Hopefully it'll be open to the public soon since they had a press event yesterday.


I hope it's better than the other "improvements" to Fantasy Land.  What a disappointing showing by Disney.
 
2014-05-01 02:10:07 PM
Maybe the speed rail that everyone voted for that Scott vetoed because he's a tea party douchebag could have helped.
 
2014-05-01 02:30:23 PM

Diogenes: labman: The only rail I'm interested in at the moment in florida is the new seven dwarves mine ride at the Magic Kingdom.  Hopefully it'll be open to the public soon since they had a press event yesterday.

I hope it's better than the other "improvements" to Fantasy Land.  What a disappointing showing by Disney.


POV here. Bear in mind, it's sorta supposed to be a notch below Big Thunder in terms of intensity, for maximum kid-friendliness.
 
2014-05-01 02:44:59 PM
Are they buying one-way tickets out?
 
2014-05-01 02:45:31 PM

Diogenes: +1 on the headline.

And while it is funny about us locals, it does make me think of the tourists I see in the parks.  They spend god knows how much money to see the sights, go to shows, ride the rides, etc.  And yet they're fascinated by the dumbest, most common things.

They're are fixated on all the squirrels like they were farking unicorns.  Pretty much everyone has squirrels where they come from.

Them:  "Oh, look at the cute little tame squirrel!  Sylvia, take a picture!"

Me:  "Ahem."  [points to giant underwater tank]  "Whale!"


My nephew came up MI to visit from FL with his GF.  She had never been North of the Mason/Dixon line.  The GF was fascinated by the gazillion rabbits we have running around our little corner of suburbia.  She thought they were cute; they're a farking pain in the ass.
 
2014-05-01 02:45:41 PM

Diogenes: stpauler: So it looks like it skips all of the theme parks as well as the airport. That'll do.
[www.trbimg.com image 668x1451]

Bet that pisses Disney off.

They've been trying for like forever to get a direct train line from the airport to their park.  The local transportation companies are like, "Um...no."

It's an interesting choice of route.  But it's nice to have something that serves the locals for a change.  What Phase I might assist with is some employment mobility.


Well, I don't imagine that Orlando businesses are all that keen on the idea of Disney getting to transport all their customers right through to Disney's gates and back to the airport once they're done.
 
2014-05-01 02:47:21 PM

Muta: The GF was fascinated by the gazillion rabbits we have running around our little corner of suburbia.


Which we also have here in FL.
 
2014-05-01 02:49:25 PM

Infernalist: Well, I don't imagine that Orlando businesses are all that keen on the idea of Disney getting to transport all their customers right through to Disney's gates and back to the airport once they're done.


Exactly the point.  And it's more than transportation.  Hotels, stores, other attractions not on Disney property.

If we all have to suffer the tourists, we should all get whatever benefits come with them.  Or, you know, gouge them ;-)
 
2014-05-01 02:50:31 PM

Diogenes: stpauler: So it looks like it skips all of the theme parks as well as the airport. That'll do.
[www.trbimg.com image 668x1451]

Bet that pisses Disney off.

They've been trying for like forever to get a direct train line from the airport to their park.  The local transportation companies are like, "Um...no."

It's an interesting choice of route.  But it's nice to have something that serves the locals for a change.  What Phase I might assist with is some employment mobility.


Yeah, but Disney won't let it happen unless it goes directly to Disney, none of this stopping off at Universal or I-Drive stuff...which makes no sense geographically, unless it's a big circular route only for tourists. I moved here in '99 which was right when the light rail from downtown through I Drive was just getting killed off...Businesses there didn't want it to mess up traffic for a few years and some locals hated the fact that some tourists would use it, although that is a large part of our traffic problems.

This route was dictated by the fact the railroad was already there. Still costs millions, and... somehow... still no plans to run on the weekend, last I heard.
 
2014-05-01 02:52:33 PM

neon9: Still costs millions, and... somehow... still no plans to run on the weekend, last I heard.


So much for using it to get downtown for the bars.  At least for now.
 
2014-05-01 02:56:19 PM
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2001-10-31/news/0110310262_1_tran s portation-department-commissioners-mike-snyder
Can't find much else about the old light rail route (would have been faster, more frequent trains) but this says from Altamonte to Sea World.

IIRC Disney hated it once the route was shortened to exclude it, and even Universal wasn't crazy about it as it would draw people away from their 'Citywalk'.

And don't get me started on the car rental and taxi agencies...apparently you'd be surprised how much pull they have.
 
2014-05-01 02:58:10 PM
I thought it was funny that the crowds were so huge because it was free. Whenever I hear about something free like that I run as fast as I can in the other direction. I have seen morons in a 30 person line at dunkin donuts to get a free $1 donut.
 
2014-05-01 02:58:14 PM
SunRail pulled back four of its five trains when it switched from the peak morning service of every 30 minutes to two hours.

Two. Hours. Farking typical. They take something that could be incredibly useful (and props for making it for residents instead of tourists), and make it next to useless. Reminds me of several years ago when Lynx got a ton of money to improve the bus system, and instead of adding more routes and buses, spent it on "Miami Vice"-colored bus shelters that looked pretty, but offered little to no shelter whatsoever. Oh, and they upgraded the buses in the tourist areas to coach-like buses.
 
2014-05-01 03:04:15 PM

neon9: And don't get me started on the car rental and taxi agencies...apparently you'd be surprised how much pull they have.


In almost every city, viz PA PUC 'Cracks Down' on Uber/Lyft Drivers.
 
2014-05-01 03:04:25 PM

Diogenes: I hope it's better than the other "improvements" to Fantasy Land. What a disappointing showing by Disney.


I thought they did OK on that.  I mean, the little mermaid ride was a clone from california, but most people don't go to both coasts enough to really pick up on that.  I really like the 'Be our guest' restaurant, though.  The reservations for it were a pain, but I was a nice meal and the whole find you no matter where you are sitting was pretty cool, too.  Double Dumbo is a big who cares, but if you have kids not having to sit out in the sun waiting in line has got to be an improvement.

I still miss 20,000 leagues under the sea.  I hate that they pulled that out.  Bastards.
 
2014-05-01 03:18:54 PM

labman: The only rail I'm interested in at the moment in florida is the new seven dwarves mine ride at the Magic Kingdom.  Hopefully it'll be open to the public soon since they had a press event yesterday.


It's a freakin' kiddie ride, not all that more intense than Flight of the Hippogriff at Harry Potter.  The "New" Fantasyland is a joke.

On the other hand, I rode the SunRail this morning avoiding my everyday pissed-off trek on I-4.  It was most-excellent.
 
2014-05-01 03:31:02 PM
labman:

I still miss 20,000 leagues under the sea.  I hate that they pulled that out.  Bastards.

Amen to that.  It was one of the best rides in the park.  "E ticket" for us geezers.
 
2014-05-01 03:37:54 PM
Mugato:
Maybe the speed rail that everyone voted for that Scott vetoed because he's a tea party douchebag it was really, really farking stupid could have helped.

The Orlando-Tampa high speed rail proposal was just. Flat. Stupid.

It ran through some bad land (they were talking about having to run pilings down several hundred feet through muck for some stretches), it was routed badly (too many sharp curves would have slowed the whole thing down a lot), and it wasn't going to be that fast (not a helluva lot faster than driving Interstate 4).

It was also going to cost a LOT. They tried to justify it with insanely inflated ridership estimates (they basically decided that ten to twenty times as many people per day would take the train - at $50 a pop, each way - as currently drive the interstate highway it was going to parallel.

They also left out the whole "how do you get around when you arrive?" issue - it would have cost a crazy amount to add in the new commuter mass transit systems to feed the thing.

Overall, using more realistic estimates, it would literally have been cheaper to rent cars for people to drive from Orlando to Tampa than to operate the train. And that was if they could manage to meet the budget (which would never have happened, with that plan).
 
2014-05-01 03:39:01 PM
Damn, Fark ate my strikethroughs.

Maybe the speed rail that everyone voted for that Scott vetoed because he's a tea party douchebag it was really, really farking stupid could have helped
 
2014-05-01 03:46:18 PM

A_fuente: labman: The only rail I'm interested in at the moment in florida is the new seven dwarves mine ride at the Magic Kingdom.  Hopefully it'll be open to the public soon since they had a press event yesterday.

It's a freakin' kiddie ride, not all that more intense than Flight of the Hippogriff at Harry Potter.  The "New" Fantasyland is a joke.

On the other hand, I rode the SunRail this morning avoiding my everyday pissed-off trek on I-4.  It was most-excellent.


Their target audiences is little kids. What did you expect them to put in, Top Thrill Dragster?

This is the kind of coaster I can ride with my younger nephew. (The older nephews are in college and taking them to theme parks like we used to is logistically difficult. They would prefer dragster, though.)
 
2014-05-01 03:55:03 PM
Infernalist: Well, I don't imagine that Orlando businesses are all that keen on the idea of Disney getting to transport all their customers right through to Disney's gates and back to the airport once they're done.

How do those people get from the airport to a Disney resort now?  I presume that it's shuttle bus or similar, which has exactly the same impact on the local businesses that they drive by but do not stop at.
 
2014-05-01 04:04:03 PM

cirby: They also left out the whole "how do you get around when you arrive?" issue - it would have cost a crazy amount to add in the new commuter mass transit systems to feed the thing.


You know, this is one of the BIG issues that no one mentions.

So you have a big awesome city center to city center transit thingy.

Let's say you've solved the problems of cost, headway, and speed.  It averages 150 MPH, runs once an hour, actually runs late at night, and is cheap (And isn't sucking up 100's of millions/billions in subsidies for this process that secretly make it cost more in higher taxes).

Ok, how do I GET to the burbs?

Because I'm from the midwest*, and let's be honest.

Only poor people or REALLY rich people live in the cities.  The middle-class, who sort of combine "numbers" with "Able and willing to drop $100 on a train ticket" live in the burbs (This is both changing and a gross generalization, but you get what I mean).  And if you want the ridership numbers, that means that you need to convince people to get to downtown, ride downtown - other downtown, and then ride from downtown to their final destination.  All on your transit schedules.  Or they can just get in the car and take the freeway with all the advantages thereof (and yes, they do exist).

Mind you, planes manage to pull that off, but that's because trains go 100 MPH literally on rails, and planes go 500 MPH in the air from any airport that exists to any other airport that exists, without stopping at every podunk town along the way.

And uh, once again, midwest, there is no possible world in which rich suburbanites let you build mass transit out to their rich enclaves that poor people can ride.  And even if you DO, unless you REALLY have good cops (Read: Throw half the city of Detroit in jail), they're definitely not getting out of their cars onto your buses if the mass transit isn't safe.

So lets' spend the next 20 years implementing The Plan nationwide, gentrifying the inner cities, kicking the ghetto folks way out to the hinterlands (poor is fine, ghetto is not) via Section 8, and creating the *city-regional* mass transit networks that you can then hook the *national* and *regional-regional* stuff up to.

*Detroit, which is a bit of a real world reductio ad absurdum.
 
2014-05-01 04:05:21 PM
Infernalist:
Well, I don't imagine that Orlando businesses are all that keen on the idea of Disney getting to transport all their customers right through to Disney's gates and back to the airport once they're done.

unyon:
How do those people get from the airport to a Disney resort now? I presume that it's shuttle bus or similar, which has exactly the same impact on the local businesses that they drive by but do not stop at.

When people talk about "Orlando businesses" in this, they mean, basically, Mears Transportation. There are others, but that's the big one, and the one that pushes back against any sort of rail connections to Disney. The rental car companies are also against it, but they're not as... vehement.
 
2014-05-01 04:05:42 PM

cirby: Mugato:


The Orlando-Tampa high speed rail proposal was just. Flat. Stupid.


THIS!
 
2014-05-01 04:13:27 PM

cirby: Overall, using more realistic estimates, it would literally have been cheaper to rent cars for people to drive from Orlando to Tampa than to operate the train. And that was if they could manage to meet the budget (which would never have happened, with that plan).


Everyone voted for it.  Scott clearly said he voted it down for political reasons, because he's a Tea Partier and din't want to accept Federal money. It was all paid for and Miami was going to extend it but it was nixed for political reasons. Scott didn't even try to deny that.
 
2014-05-01 04:13:41 PM

cirby: Infernalist:
Well, I don't imagine that Orlando businesses are all that keen on the idea of Disney getting to transport all their customers right through to Disney's gates and back to the airport once they're done.

unyon:
How do those people get from the airport to a Disney resort now? I presume that it's shuttle bus or similar, which has exactly the same impact on the local businesses that they drive by but do not stop at.

When people talk about "Orlando businesses" in this, they mean, basically, Mears Transportation. There are others, but that's the big one, and the one that pushes back against any sort of rail connections to Disney. The rental car companies are also against it, but they're not as... vehement.


I always just assumed all the cab services rolled up to Mears.  I've taken some less-obviously-labeled cabs that turned out to be Mears.
 
2014-05-01 04:15:09 PM

Angela Lansbury's Merkin: Headline "Huge crowds"
Video Story:  7 people


You watched the video?  You're not supposed to watch it.  You're supposed to biatch about auto-play and tell us how you'd rather read the article.
 
2014-05-01 05:12:06 PM
Mugato:
Everyone voted for it.

Well, a lot of people voted for it in 2000 - at a bit less than 2:1 ratio. But then a lot of other people voted in 2004 to repeal the original version from 2000. Then, in 2009, with the promise of a huge pile of Federal money, the Florida legislature voted for the new attempt at building HSR.

That's when it went sour. The "high speed" part only turned out to be the first lie. The trip from the Orlando station to the Tampa station would have taken just over an hour because of the many stops along the way - and the drive from point to point only takes an hour and a half, at worst. The rest of the thing was insane (ridership estimates were laughably overinflated for the $50 one-way fare) or underestimated (costs were never going to be anywhere near the promised $2.5 billion).

Scott clearly said he voted it down for political reasons,

False, of course. Actually, he said he vetoed it because of cost overruns and long-term operating costs, along with the inflated ridership estimates that nobody in their right mind would accept. I know that translates to "political reasons" to a lot of Democrats, but that's the reason, not whatever you make up as you go along.

You also have to remember that, while the Feds were promising a lot of cash for this, any overruns from the original estimates were going to come out of Florida's pockets - and it was going to run over.

"The truth is that this project would be far too costly to taxpayers and I believe the risk far outweighs the benefits," according to Scott.

He was right.
 
2014-05-01 05:19:01 PM

cirby: False, of course. Actually, he said he vetoed it because of cost overruns and long-term operating costs, along with the inflated ridership estimates that nobody in their right mind would accept


Actually it was completely budgeted by the Fed and would have created $30,000 jobs. Miami was down with extending it to them, which would have made a great transit system and other states are laughing their ass off that we turned it down.
 
2014-05-01 05:23:24 PM
www.progarchives.com

I would think they were already sick of Disney, et al.
 
2014-05-01 05:27:47 PM
Mugato:

Actually it was completely budgeted by the Fed and would have created $30,000 jobs. Miami was down with extending it to them, which would have made a great transit system and other states are laughing their ass off that we turned it down.

Florida's money ended up going to California.  They *already* have more problems creating their system and it will be a black hole for cash, and of course, nobody's ever gonna ride the thing.  Scott did the absolute correct thing.
 
2014-05-01 05:34:45 PM

Infernalist: Diogenes: stpauler: So it looks like it skips all of the theme parks as well as the airport. That'll do.
[www.trbimg.com image 668x1451]

Bet that pisses Disney off.

They've been trying for like forever to get a direct train line from the airport to their park.  The local transportation companies are like, "Um...no."

It's an interesting choice of route.  But it's nice to have something that serves the locals for a change.  What Phase I might assist with is some employment mobility.

Well, I don't imagine that Orlando businesses are all that keen on the idea of Disney getting to transport all their customers right through to Disney's gates and back to the airport once they're done.


Disney already has their own bus line that runs to the airport. It's free if you're staying on property.
 
2014-05-01 05:36:30 PM

Mugato: cirby: False, of course. Actually, he said he vetoed it because of cost overruns and long-term operating costs, along with the inflated ridership estimates that nobody in their right mind would accept

Actually it was completely budgeted by the Fed and would have created $30,000 jobs. Miami was down with extending it to them, which would have made a great transit system and other states are laughing their ass off that we turned it down.


So the mass transit from Orlando to Miami was going to go through Tampa?  And it wasn't going to be all that fast, and it was going to lack the regional mass transit that actually makes this stuff sorta work?

Ooh, and through the Everglades.  Have fun with the environmentalists on that one.

Have you maybe considered that this is why people laugh at mass transit?

/Seriously, the only thing worse than no mass transit is shiatty mass transit that's half done and poorly concieved.
 
2014-05-01 05:36:33 PM

A_fuente: Mugato:

Actually it was completely budgeted by the Fed and would have created $30,000 jobs. Miami was down with extending it to them, which would have made a great transit system and other states are laughing their ass off that we turned it down.

Florida's money ended up going to California.  They *already* have more problems creating their system and it will be a black hole for cash, and of course, nobody's ever gonna ride the thing.  Scott did the absolute correct thing.


Wow, you really believe that, after everything he said as to why he shut it down. I guess even someone like Scott has to have some supporters out there.
 
2014-05-01 06:03:07 PM

Infernalist: Diogenes: stpauler: So it looks like it skips all of the theme parks as well as the airport. That'll do.
[www.trbimg.com image 668x1451]

Bet that pisses Disney off.

They've been trying for like forever to get a direct train line from the airport to their park.  The local transportation companies are like, "Um...no."

It's an interesting choice of route.  But it's nice to have something that serves the locals for a change.  What Phase I might assist with is some employment mobility.

Well, I don't imagine that Orlando businesses are all that keen on the idea of Disney getting to transport all their customers right through to Disney's gates and back to the airport once they're done.


Except they already do that ever since they created the Magical Express bus lines. Bus people straight from and to the airport, no need for them to rent a car, and they stay on Disney property for their entire vacation.. It's taken this huge surge thanks for Harry Potterland at Universal to make a dent in that business model as people go..hey I want to check that out and it's not in Disney....
 
2014-05-01 06:05:32 PM
east/west would've been nice though.. airport, UCF, anything like that...  Heck how about a Tampa-Orlando-Cocoa express line.

/Cue massive thunderstorm washing out the track on its first day.
 
2014-05-01 06:22:48 PM

Muta: Diogenes: +1 on the headline.

And while it is funny about us locals, it does make me think of the tourists I see in the parks.  They spend god knows how much money to see the sights, go to shows, ride the rides, etc.  And yet they're fascinated by the dumbest, most common things.

They're are fixated on all the squirrels like they were farking unicorns.  Pretty much everyone has squirrels where they come from.

Them:  "Oh, look at the cute little tame squirrel!  Sylvia, take a picture!"

Me:  "Ahem."  [points to giant underwater tank]  "Whale!"

My nephew came up MI to visit from FL with his GF.  She had never been North of the Mason/Dixon line.  The GF was fascinated by the gazillion rabbits we have running around our little corner of suburbia.  She thought they were cute; they're a farking pain in the ass.


I once went to Arizona near the peak of summer and went for a run at dusk. I counted something like 70 little wee rabbits, one or two per lawn, on the course of a 4 or 5 mile run. They were hella cute but I'm sure most homeowners hated them for eating that precious grass.

No sympathy, cuz grass in the desert is stupid, of course.
 
2014-05-01 06:28:36 PM

almandot: Infernalist: Diogenes: stpauler: So it looks like it skips all of the theme parks as well as the airport. That'll do.
[www.trbimg.com image 668x1451]

Bet that pisses Disney off.

They've been trying for like forever to get a direct train line from the airport to their park.  The local transportation companies are like, "Um...no."

It's an interesting choice of route.  But it's nice to have something that serves the locals for a change.  What Phase I might assist with is some employment mobility.

Well, I don't imagine that Orlando businesses are all that keen on the idea of Disney getting to transport all their customers right through to Disney's gates and back to the airport once they're done.

Except they already do that ever since they created the Magical Express bus lines. Bus people straight from and to the airport, no need for them to rent a car, and they stay on Disney property for their entire vacation.. It's taken this huge surge thanks for Harry Potterland at Universal to make a dent in that business model as people go..hey I want to check that out and it's not in Disney....


I'll be heading out to WDW in a few days, and I'll be using the Magical Express transit. The major partnership for that ride is Disney and...Mears Transportation.
 
2014-05-01 06:48:38 PM
Can you see George Zimmerman's old house from it?
 
2014-05-01 07:16:29 PM
When I traveled through Tucson last week, they had streetcar tracks but no streetcars.

Go figure.
 
2014-05-01 07:48:51 PM
Makes me think of who else got the trains to run on time...
 
2014-05-01 08:38:07 PM
Mugato:
Actually it was completely budgeted by the Fed and would have created $30,000 jobs.

In reality (not Federal budgeting) it was allocated only for the initial estimate ($2.4 billion), and would have created a lot fewer jobs. Going by normal Federal budget underestimations, it would have cost the state of Florida at least a billion, and probably a lot more. Some estimates showed the project doubling in cost (they grossly understimated the price of running train tracks across several-hundred-feet-deep muck, for example), and land acquisition was already starting to balloon in cost.

For comparison, the California HSR system was originally budgeted for about 1/3 of its current estimate ($33 billion versus $91.5 billion).

For another hilarious comparison, when the project was originally proposed in 2009, the cost to Florida was supposedly only $280 million. That ballooned to $1 billion in just two years.

Even after being built, the system was going to be a money loser every year, forever. The ridership estimates were hilariously bad, to start.
 
2014-05-01 08:58:30 PM
meyerkev:
So the mass transit from Orlando to Miami was going to go through Tampa? And it wasn't going to be all that fast, and it was going to lack the regional mass transit that actually makes this stuff sorta work?

Ooh, and through the Everglades. Have fun with the environmentalists on that one.


Oh, this line wasn't going anywhere NEAR Miami. It was just Orlando-Tampa, with a bunch of stops in between. They talked about running a line to Miami, but it would have cost at least $10 billion to do that.

The Miami line was supposedly going a whole different direction, and not through the Everglades itself. Different swamp altogether.

On the other hand, there's a private company (All Aboard Florida) that's getting ready to run a high-ish speed rail service (less than 125 MPH, about the speed of the Acela) from Orlando to Miami. It's going to cost about $1.5 billion, will go twice as far as the cancelled Orlando/Tampa run, will actually end up connecting Tampa (for a LOT less money than the cancelled system), and will connect to Orlando International Airport and the SunRail system (eventually).

They're going to start service in 2015/16 - about the time the government-run HSR system would have finished buying up land to start construction.
 
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