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(YouTube)   Neil deGrasse Tyson: income equality doesn't matter. Access equality is the only thing that does   (youtube.com ) divider line
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3240 clicks; posted to Video » on 01 May 2014 at 9:28 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-01 08:28:26 AM  
so he agrees with republicans and disagrees with democrats - equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome?

for those scoring at home:

Tyson 1, Piketty 0

Tyson wins this round.
 
2014-05-01 08:34:17 AM  
Only the strawmen in the GOPs mind want equality of outcome.  Actual liberals just want equality of opportunity.  Right now the field is tilted so far in the favor of the already wealthy the middle and lower don't have a chance.

SlothB77:
Tyson 1, Piketty 0

Whay Tyson said and Piketty said are not incompatible.
 
2014-05-01 08:42:25 AM  
The problem is income inequality. A solution is access equality.
 
2014-05-01 09:09:27 AM  
I will be happy if no one ever uses the word 'blogosphere' again.
 
2014-05-01 09:22:41 AM  
Neil Degrasse Tyson always knows the way to answer best. No one can fark up O'Reilly like Tyson can
 
2014-05-01 09:27:25 AM  

EvilEgg: Only the strawmen in the GOPs mind want equality of outcome.  Actual liberals just want equality of opportunity.  Right now the field is tilted so far in the favor of the already wealthy the middle and lower don't have a chance.

SlothB77:
Tyson 1, Piketty 0

Whay Tyson said and Piketty said are not incompatible.


You're wasting your breath. He already won this thread.
 
2014-05-01 09:39:48 AM  

syrynxx: I will be happy if no one ever uses the word 'blogosphere' again.


Well, I'll help spread that meme around the 'postiverse'.
 
2014-05-01 10:13:18 AM  
Such a shame such a brilliant man is so misguided. I love him on a personal level but his world view means we can never be on the same page.
 
2014-05-01 10:14:33 AM  
Fark you, he has his.
 
2014-05-01 10:15:33 AM  

walkingtall: Such a shame such a brilliant man is so misguided. I love him on a personal level but his world view means we can never be on the same page.


It keeps him up at night.
 
2014-05-01 10:17:50 AM  

FormlessOne: It keeps him up at night


The consequences are a lot more severe if he is wrong and I am right I am afraid.
 
2014-05-01 10:22:20 AM  
Counterpoint: Income / wealth is a determinant of access.
 
2014-05-01 10:28:30 AM  

walkingtall: Such a shame such a brilliant man is so misguided.


"Misguided" implies he doesn't understand what he's espousing.  Let's go with "evil".
 
2014-05-01 10:41:46 AM  

SlothB77: so he agrees with republicans and disagrees with democrats - equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome?


It sounds to me like he makes up his mind on a per-issue basis. I think that deep down he doesn't feel a particular allegiance to either party. What did you really expect? He's a scientist.

In the past he's criticized the democrats for neglecting science funding.
 
2014-05-01 10:41:48 AM  

SlothB77: so he agrees with republicans and disagrees with democrats - equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome?


Spoken by a Negro man, that's tantamount to heresy.
 
2014-05-01 10:47:28 AM  

walkingtall: Such a shame such a brilliant man is so misguided. I love him on a personal level but his world view means we can never be on the same page.


DNWTFV, but you can make a strong argument that some income inequality is a good thing, you can't really argue that access equality can ever be a bad thing.

Perfect income equality is paying everyone the same regardless of their contribution or skill level. One way that we can drive people into high-demand and high-utility fields is by enticing them with money. I'm very highly trained and love my job, but if someone said I could have $30,000 a year with no strings attached, I'd probably quit to spend more time with family and on my own pursuits. If there was no money incentive, I would have stopped trying as hard as I do a long time ago.

Perfect access equality is giving everyone the chance to rise to the limit of their potential. Society does the best when everyone can succeed to their fullest.
 
2014-05-01 10:54:17 AM  
He contradicted himself at one point he is talking about how the republicans going to war on science is a self correcting problem because they like money and then by the end  of the interview he is talking about the history of how a whole civilization can collapse when people do what the republicans are doing.

I agree with his point that access is important and causes a bunch of people that might make significant contributions to never have a shot but there's also the bigger population of people that simply can't do more than whatever low wage  job they are doing and that is where wealth inequality trumps and access you could give those people, they just need to get paid more for stocking shelves or flipping burgers.
 
2014-05-01 11:00:25 AM  

walkingtall: Such a shame such a brilliant man is so misguided. I love him on a personal level but his world view means we can never be on the same page.


I know. Using rational thought is bad when we can be emotional. Things must always conform to my expectations or it cannot be real
 
2014-05-01 11:02:29 AM  
Religion has it's own form of politics. It's weird to watch them try to suck science into the religious arena where it doesn't ever want to be........  (or inject religion into the science arena where it doesn't belong; is promptly rejected and then whine about it....)
 
2014-05-01 11:03:17 AM  
Hey, Neil.  Come over here a sec, need to tell you something.

Stick to what you know.  Physics?  Astronomy?  Yeah, do that.  Otherwise, stifle.

That is all.
 
2014-05-01 11:03:21 AM  
Headso:
...but there's also the bigger population of people that simply can't do more than whatever low wage  job they are doing and that is where wealth inequality trumps and access you could give those people, they just need to get paid more for stocking shelves or flipping burgers.

Not sure if serious.

So, they get paid more and...

Breed more future shelf stockers and burger flippers?
Buy more consumer goods and burgers?

Use the leisure time they bought with higher income to educate themselves better to change into an even more remunerative career?
 
2014-05-01 11:05:13 AM  

deeyablo: Hey, Neil.  Come over here a sec, need to tell you something.

Stick to what you know.  Physics?  Astronomy?  Yeah, do that.  Otherwise, stifle.

That is all.


Why? What is wrong with his logic?
 
2014-05-01 11:07:42 AM  

Kuta: Buy more consumer goods and burgers?


yep, in the capitalist society he is referring to consumer spending is what drive the economy.
 
2014-05-01 11:12:36 AM  

Headso: He contradicted himself at one point he is talking about how the republicans going to war on science is a self correcting problem because they like money and then by the end  of the interview he is talking about the history of how a whole civilization can collapse when people do what the republicans are doing.

I agree with his point that access is important and causes a bunch of people that might make significant contributions to never have a shot but there's also the bigger population of people that simply can't do more than whatever low wage  job they are doing and that is where wealth inequality trumps and access you could give those people, they just need to get paid more for stocking shelves or flipping burgers.


No, he didn't

He said "Educated Conservatives", not Conservatives in general. Listen closer.
 
2014-05-01 11:14:59 AM  

cman: Educated Conservatives


jumbo shrimp
 
2014-05-01 11:19:05 AM  

Headso: cman: Educated Conservatives

jumbo shrimp


You don't think there is a single one?

Is your superior complex that great?
 
2014-05-01 11:26:38 AM  

Headso: I agree with his point that access is important and causes a bunch of people that might make significant contributions to never have a shot but there's also the bigger population of people that simply can't do more than whatever low wage  job they are doing and that is where wealth inequality trumps and access you could give those people, they just need to get paid more for stocking shelves or flipping burgers.


There's a question of access and welfare.

Suppose everyone truly had equal access. You could rest comfortable that most of the people working at McDonalds, for whatever their reasons, had risen to the level of their potential. That's the harsh truth, but it is. It's also true that your potential can be limited through no fault of your own, and while that sucks, that's also the way the world works.

Maybe you even did everything right and you were one of the 0.0001% of teenagers who got pregnant while you were using birth control. Now you're a single mom. Through no fault of your own, your potential has been severely limited. Does it make sense for society to dump a bunch of resources on this person who is probably not going to make effective use? Probably not.

That might sound unfair, but life isn't fair. There are uncountable ways that someone can go from "that person could be a Fortune 500 CEO" to "that person might make assistant night shift manager if they work hard".
 
2014-05-01 11:32:04 AM  

cman: Headso: cman: Educated Conservatives

jumbo shrimp

You don't think there is a single one?

Is your superior complex that great?


I was just making a bit of a joke but seriously fiscal conservatives not a single one but  there's plenty of religious people that are.
 
2014-05-01 11:41:58 AM  

Fubini: Maybe you even did everything right and you were one of the 0.0001% of teenagers who got pregnant while you were using birth control. Now you're a single mom. Through no fault of your own, your potential has been severely limited. Does it make sense for society to dump a bunch of resources on this person who is probably not going to make effective use? Probably not.

That might sound unfair, but life isn't fair.


Except the beauty of being Human is that we have the ability to create Justice and Fairness in our world.

Apparently you think it would be a good thing to allow that person to fail, and to deny their children the opportunity to live a better life.  How amazingly horrible of you.
 
2014-05-01 11:47:29 AM  

deeyablo: Hey, Neil.  Come over here a sec, need to tell you something.

Stick to what you know.  Physics?  Astronomy?  Yeah, do that.  Otherwise, stifle.

That is all.


What are your qualifications to comment?
 
2014-05-01 11:50:23 AM  

Fubini: Maybe you even did everything right and you were one of the 0.0001% of teenagers who got pregnant while you were using birth control. Now you're a single mom. Through no fault of your own, your potential has been severely limited.


This is the problem with many people younger than I am, nothing is their fault.

You see this scenario as "no fault of your own"? She took a risk. It was a small risk but a risk nonetheless.
 
2014-05-01 11:53:10 AM  

Nonrepeating Rotating Binary: Apparently you think it would be a good thing to allow that person to fail, and to deny their children the opportunity to live a better life.  How amazingly horrible of you.


I said the exact opposite. Did you read my post?

Assume we live in a world where everyone has perfect access. They have, at any time, the tools and resources to better themselves. In such a world, if someone is working at McDonalds, they're working there because they have reached their potential. It's not allowing them to fail, it's allowing them to succeed as far as they may succeed. For that particular person, if their highest success is line cook, then good for them for making it there.

This is the amazing and terrifying thing about a world where everyone has access. The only thing holding you back is yourself.
 
2014-05-01 11:53:44 AM  

jst3p: deeyablo: Hey, Neil.  Come over here a sec, need to tell you something.

Stick to what you know.  Physics?  Astronomy?  Yeah, do that.  Otherwise, stifle.

That is all.

What are your qualifications to comment?


WELL, jst3p, given this is a public forum for the express purposes of commenting, I would have to say my possession of a user name and password for fark.  I think you were trying to equate my commentary with his.  That said, I am not presenting myself as an expert.  I am not using my accomplishments in unrelated fields to espouse (in this case, misguided) thoughts on a matter that, frankly, don't really involve his quality of life as directly as others.

Did you have any other questions?
 
2014-05-01 12:00:39 PM  

deeyablo: jst3p: deeyablo: Hey, Neil.  Come over here a sec, need to tell you something.

Stick to what you know.  Physics?  Astronomy?  Yeah, do that.  Otherwise, stifle.

That is all.

What are your qualifications to comment?

WELL, jst3p, given this is a public forum for the express purposes of commenting, I would have to say my possession of a user name and password for fark.  I think you were trying to equate my commentary with his.  That said, I am not presenting myself as an expert.  I am not using my accomplishments in unrelated fields to espouse (in this case, misguided) thoughts on a matter that, frankly, don't really involve his quality of life as directly as others.

Did you have any other questions?


I wasn't trying to equate your commentary to his, you made no commentary. I was trying to point out that your criticism of his lack of qualification to express opinions that you wish to undermine (because you disagree with them) is likely coming from a person just as unqualified. I believe I was successful.
 
2014-05-01 12:08:41 PM  

jst3p: You see this scenario as "no fault of your own"? She took a risk. It was a small risk but a risk nonetheless.


I do see it as "no fault of your own". If you use birth control correctly, it's effective well above 99% of the time. A reasonable person has every expectation of not getting pregnant in that situation.  It's true that she wouldn't have gotten pregnant without the sex, but it's also true that she took the proper steps so that any reasonable person would not consider pregnancy a possibility.
 
2014-05-01 12:11:37 PM  

Fubini: jst3p: You see this scenario as "no fault of your own"? She took a risk. It was a small risk but a risk nonetheless.

I do see it as "no fault of your own". If you use birth control correctly, it's effective well above 99% of the time. A reasonable person has every expectation of not getting pregnant in that situation.  It's true that she wouldn't have gotten pregnant without the sex, but it's also true that she took the proper steps so that any reasonable person would not consider pregnancy a possibility.


A very small chance is not the same as no chance. A reasonable person understands this. She got unlucky but to say it is through no fault of her own is false.
 
2014-05-01 12:13:33 PM  

walkingtall: Such a shame such a brilliant man is so misguided. I love him on a personal level but his world view means we can never be on the same page.



Yes, the poor man has been misguided by facts and evidence. If only he had been brainwashed by dogmatic tripe before such evil concepts had infected his brain.
 
2014-05-01 12:17:06 PM  

jst3p: A very small chance is not the same as no chance. A reasonable person understands this. She got unlucky but to say it is through no fault of her own is false.


I think we're using different notions of 'fault'. To each their own.
 
2014-05-01 12:32:50 PM  
13:07

Moyers:  So inequality matters.
Tyson:  Yes
 
2014-05-01 12:44:27 PM  

walkingtall: Such a shame such a brilliant man is so misguided. I love him on a personal level but his world view means we can never be on the same page.


That's a lot of pretty words to describe your thoughts about the man when "Uncle Tom" would have summed it up nicely.
 
2014-05-01 12:58:56 PM  

GoldSpider: walkingtall: Such a shame such a brilliant man is so misguided.

"Misguided" implies he doesn't understand what he's espousing.  Let's go with "evil".

Oh, no, you don't want to drag this into the calling him "evil" hole. That would be bad. You would be un-popular.
 
2014-05-01 01:01:02 PM  

walkingtall: Such a shame such a brilliant man is so misguided. I love him on a personal level but his world view means we can never be on the same page.


It's because he's black isn't it?
 
2014-05-01 01:01:59 PM  
The intro listing all the contributors was too long and I didn't watch the...hey! A fire truck!
 
2014-05-01 01:19:12 PM  

BenJammin: 13:07

Moyers:  So inequality matters.
Tyson:  Yes


A Fark headline not matching the article?

WHAT IS THIS MADNESS?
 
2014-05-01 01:25:25 PM  

red5ish: The intro listing all the contributors was too long and I didn't watch the...hey! A fire truck!


If only there was some way to control the playback so as to "skip" such unwanted things.
 
2014-05-01 01:43:11 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: It's because he's black isn't it?


No but thx for being THAT guy.
 
2014-05-01 01:45:08 PM  
Yes, the poor man has been misguided by facts and evidence. If only he had been brainwashed by dogmatic tripe before such evil concepts had infected his brain.

There is such a thing as truth if you are willing to find it and accept it wherever it might lead you. Having a preconceived idea of how the world is and fitting everything into that idea isn't truth.
 
2014-05-01 02:03:22 PM  

Fubini: I think we're using different notions of 'fault'. To each their own.


You're using different notions of reasonable person. He's chosen to stake out a completely unreasonable definition of the term reasonable so that he can fly his argument on the rigid pole of technicality with complete indifference to the larger realities of social and legal context.

His argument essentially boils down to "nothing can ever be 100%, therefore everyone should be held accountable for the outlier". Thankfully no practical facet of human life actually works like that in practice.
 
2014-05-01 02:04:11 PM  

walkingtall: Yes, the poor man has been misguided by facts and evidence. If only he had been brainwashed by dogmatic tripe before such evil concepts had infected his brain.

There is such a thing as truth if you are willing to find it and accept it wherever it might lead you. Having a preconceived idea of how the world is and fitting everything into that idea isn't truth.




And the Yannomamo know the Truth!

In this myth, the Yanomamo account for the creation of human beings and for their ferocity. The myth is told by the shaman Dedeheiwa.

Long ago, when people "like us" lived in a village "over there," Moon lived there too, and ate the souls of children. The villagers became very angry, especially because when Moon descended to consume the ashes of children, hanging from the roof in gourds, he crunched and chanted as he gloated over his evil tricks. So the ancestor Suhirina, who was very beautiful and tall, shot the moon with a bamboo-tipped arrow, and Moon's blood spilled all over the earth. Human beings came from this blood: strong and fierce people from the center where the most blood spilled, and weaker people from the Moon's droplets. You are from true blood, Dedeheiwa tells Chagnon, because there are many of you; my own village is weak, as we are descended from the droplets. It is because of Moon's blood, explains the shaman, that men fight and kill each other.
 
2014-05-01 02:06:06 PM  

Fubini: Nonrepeating Rotating Binary: Apparently you think it would be a good thing to allow that person to fail, and to deny their children the opportunity to live a better life.  How amazingly horrible of you.

I said the exact opposite. Did you read my post?

Assume we live in a world where everyone has perfect access. They have, at any time, the tools and resources to better themselves. In such a world, if someone is working at McDonalds, they're working there because they have reached their potential. It's not allowing them to fail, it's allowing them to succeed as far as they may succeed. For that particular person, if their highest success is line cook, then good for them for making it there.

This is the amazing and terrifying thing about a world where everyone has access. The only thing holding you back is yourself.


So you're proposing a world modeled on Zombo.com?
 
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