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(CBS News)   Ukraine protesters storm key buildings with baseball bats. First solid hit this year from a Curtis Granderson model   (cbsnews.com) divider line 60
    More: Scary, Vladimir Putin, Ukraine, storm key, objections, Cooperation in Europe, Yulia Tymoshenko, Organization for Security, OSCE  
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1655 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 May 2014 at 8:39 AM (39 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-01 08:35:02 AM  
Бейсбол Фурії
 
2014-05-01 08:41:38 AM  
IT'S PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME!
 
2014-05-01 08:42:23 AM  
Mr. Gunderson, ya don't say?
 
2014-05-01 08:45:47 AM  
Here is Istanbul, May Day is going as planned.  The police have completed cordned off Istiklal Avenue, and are not even letting in tourists. They get the whole street to themselves, drinking in cafes, chain smoking, and generally having a good time.
Every year, people march to this street on May 1, have a few chants and a parade, then go home.  This year, they were told it was illegal.
The police are gassing and beating people on their way to the same ol' rally on the same ol' street. Several apartments with children had to be evacuated because the gas was too strong.
 
2014-05-01 08:54:54 AM  
Media, stop calling these guys protestors. They aren't protestors, they are armed militia members..
 
2014-05-01 08:58:54 AM  
Well how many places are there that make keys in Ukraine?
 
2014-05-01 09:05:30 AM  

MindStalker: Media, stop calling these guys protesters. They aren't protesters, they are armed militia members..


They look more like uniformed soldiers.
I mean, they're wearing uniforms and badges and everything...

/Ukraine is showing alot more restraint than lack of security.
/Shooting these guys would be easy, but then we'd find out who their boss is two seconds later.
 
2014-05-01 09:34:59 AM  

MindStalker: Media, stop calling these guys protestors. They aren't protestors, they are armed militia members..


Russian operatives.

Basically a planned operation since Putin's puppet fled the country.
 
2014-05-01 09:41:13 AM  

LesserEvil: MindStalker: Media, stop calling these guys protestors. They aren't protestors, they are armed militia members..

Russian operatives.

Basically a planned operation since Putin's puppet fled the country.


Yeah, I was being nice. Your right, but to call them protestors is to sugar coat it to a level that is ridiculous. Why is CBS calling these guys protestors?
 
2014-05-01 09:43:06 AM  

SpdrJay: Well how many places are there that make keys in Ukraine?


Who are they, and how'd they get in there?
 
2014-05-01 09:49:23 AM  

UberDave: Бейсбол Фурії


www.buriedcinema.com

Я вижу, что вы сделали там.
 
2014-05-01 09:50:17 AM  
The first idiot to take a swing at a building and miss...will be added to the Cubs' batting order.

/Cubs fan
//cynic
///wrist
 
2014-05-01 09:54:02 AM  

MindStalker: LesserEvil: MindStalker: Media, stop calling these guys protestors. They aren't protestors, they are armed militia members..

Russian operatives.

Basically a planned operation since Putin's puppet fled the country.

Yeah, I was being nice. Your right, but to call them protestors is to sugar coat it to a level that is ridiculous. Why is CBS calling these guys protestors?


the funniest i've seen so far is graham phillips, an apparent sex tourist turned russia today "journalist" who, for reasons as yet unexplained (beyond the dictates of his employer), has taken extreme public exception to the use of the word "separatist"
WebRepcurrentVotenoRatingnoWeight
 
2014-05-01 09:55:06 AM  
Play a great deal of baseball in the Eastern Ukraine, do they?
 
2014-05-01 09:59:48 AM  
/not sure what "WebRepcurrentVotenoRatingnoWeight" is doing in my post! sorry about that
 
2014-05-01 10:07:57 AM  

MindStalker: LesserEvil: MindStalker: Media, stop calling these guys protestors. They aren't protestors, they are armed militia members..

Russian operatives.

Basically a planned operation since Putin's puppet fled the country.

Yeah, I was being nice. Your right, but to call them protestors is to sugar coat it to a level that is ridiculous. Why is CBS calling these guys protestors?


Look at CBS's coverage of the Bundy standoff and compare the language used to describe those militia personnel vs the way they describe the Russians in eastern Ukraine.

Which group is actually being violent?
 
2014-05-01 10:08:37 AM  
Who knew spetsnaz loved to play baseball when undercover?
 
2014-05-01 10:16:37 AM  
Probably a silly question, but is baseball a thing over there? Where do they get the bats? You can order them online, obviously, but it seems a bit specific a thing.
 
2014-05-01 10:26:42 AM  

felching pen: The first idiot to take a swing at a building and miss...will be added to the Cubs' batting order.


Indeed, if Ukraine's government simply relocated everyone to Chicago, this sort of thing could never happen.
 
2014-05-01 11:13:20 AM  

Facetious_Speciest: Probably a silly question, but is baseball a thing over there? Where do they get the bats? You can order them online, obviously, but it seems a bit specific a thing.


Probably, they claims that baseball was invented in Russia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapta_%28game%29 based on a much older game they played called Lapta
 
2014-05-01 11:18:15 AM  
I had no idea. Huh.
 
2014-05-01 11:20:27 AM  

Facetious_Speciest: Probably a silly question, but is baseball a thing over there? Where do they get the bats? You can order them online, obviously, but it seems a bit specific a thing.


People use them to beat other people up with.

Soccer hooligans, gay bashers etc. I am sure there's a good market in Ukraine for them.
 
2014-05-01 11:29:46 AM  
possibly NSFW   https://twitter.com/RedHack_EN/status/461882151697653761

more kids being shot by the police
 
2014-05-01 11:31:23 AM  
scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net
 
2014-05-01 11:33:46 AM  
thanks for the updates, <b>agarista</b>
 
2014-05-01 11:47:42 AM  
While I respect that the Ukraine has tried to handle these terrorists without violence its time they act. They have two options as I see it. They let Putin erode Ukraine away piece by piece as he is doing or... They treat this as it is domestic terrorism and use lethal military force when these masked Russian soldiers won't surrender. Either way they will most likely lose their country. The better option to me would be to act and force Putin to send in troops and let history remember that it was an invasion not bs demonstrations as the lib media paints it.
 
2014-05-01 12:05:35 PM  

Heywood Jublowme: While I respect that the Ukraine has tried to handle these terrorists without violence its time they act. They have two options as I see it. They let Putin erode Ukraine away piece by piece as he is doing or... They treat this as it is domestic terrorism and use lethal military force when these masked Russian soldiers won't surrender. Either way they will most likely lose their country. The better option to me would be to act and force Putin to send in troops and let history remember that it was an invasion not bs demonstrations as the lib media paints it.


i think you're giving putin what he wants. at this point it is pretty clear that putin is happier with an escalation than a de-escalation whereby significant parts of ukraine don't come under de facto russian control.
 
2014-05-01 12:40:41 PM  

21-7-b: Heywood Jublowme: While I respect that the Ukraine has tried to handle these terrorists without violence its time they act. They have two options as I see it. They let Putin erode Ukraine away piece by piece as he is doing or... They treat this as it is domestic terrorism and use lethal military force when these masked Russian soldiers won't surrender. Either way they will most likely lose their country. The better option to me would be to act and force Putin to send in troops and let history remember that it was an invasion not bs demonstrations as the lib media paints it.

i think you're giving putin what he wants. at this point it is pretty clear that putin is happier with an escalation than a de-escalation whereby significant parts of ukraine don't come under de facto russian control.


Putin has engineered a scenario where he wins no matter what from a military standpoint.

The Ukraine really is in a Kobayashi Maru scenario here:  Either they back off (or do nothing), and Russia takes de facto control over their territory, or they crack down, and the Russians invade in order to "protect" ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine.

Either way, he wins.
 
2014-05-01 12:48:45 PM  

dittybopper: 21-7-b: Heywood Jublowme: While I respect that the Ukraine has tried to handle these terrorists without violence its time they act. They have two options as I see it. They let Putin erode Ukraine away piece by piece as he is doing or... They treat this as it is domestic terrorism and use lethal military force when these masked Russian soldiers won't surrender. Either way they will most likely lose their country. The better option to me would be to act and force Putin to send in troops and let history remember that it was an invasion not bs demonstrations as the lib media paints it.

i think you're giving putin what he wants. at this point it is pretty clear that putin is happier with an escalation than a de-escalation whereby significant parts of ukraine don't come under de facto russian control.

Putin has engineered a scenario where he wins no matter what from a military standpoint.

The Ukraine really is in a Kobayashi Maru scenario here:  Either they back off (or do nothing), and Russia takes de facto control over their territory, or they crack down, and the Russians invade in order to "protect" ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine.

Either way, he wins.


de-escalation is a third way
 
2014-05-01 12:50:26 PM  

21-7-b: Heywood Jublowme: While I respect that the Ukraine has tried to handle these terrorists without violence its time they act. They have two options as I see it. They let Putin erode Ukraine away piece by piece as he is doing or... They treat this as it is domestic terrorism and use lethal military force when these masked Russian soldiers won't surrender. Either way they will most likely lose their country. The better option to me would be to act and force Putin to send in troops and let history remember that it was an invasion not bs demonstrations as the lib media paints it.

i think you're giving putin what he wants. at this point it is pretty clear that putin is happier with an escalation than a de-escalation whereby significant parts of ukraine don't come under de facto russian control.


A government that won't protect its authority with military force loses to a foreign enemy. Right to rule comes at the point of a gun. Everything else is touchy feeling.

We know this has two outcomes. Either Ukraine does nothing and collapses, or they fight back with the help of Poland and others in the area.

Russia can't win that fight. Ukraine is not isolated... so long as they make a stand. Nobody will help them until they do.

I sincerely believe that the moment Poland sends its military across the border, Russia loses. They will lose Kaliningrad, they will lose the Crimea, and they will probably lose Chechnya. Or Putin proves himself truly crazy and nukes everyone because his army collapses, in which case Russia still loses but prevents anyone else from winning.
 
2014-05-01 12:52:47 PM  

21-7-b: dittybopper: 21-7-b: Heywood Jublowme: While I respect that the Ukraine has tried to handle these terrorists without violence its time they act. They have two options as I see it. They let Putin erode Ukraine away piece by piece as he is doing or... They treat this as it is domestic terrorism and use lethal military force when these masked Russian soldiers won't surrender. Either way they will most likely lose their country. The better option to me would be to act and force Putin to send in troops and let history remember that it was an invasion not bs demonstrations as the lib media paints it.

i think you're giving putin what he wants. at this point it is pretty clear that putin is happier with an escalation than a de-escalation whereby significant parts of ukraine don't come under de facto russian control.

Putin has engineered a scenario where he wins no matter what from a military standpoint.

The Ukraine really is in a Kobayashi Maru scenario here:  Either they back off (or do nothing), and Russia takes de facto control over their territory, or they crack down, and the Russians invade in order to "protect" ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine.

Either way, he wins.

de-escalation is a third way


See my bolded part above.
 
2014-05-01 01:00:26 PM  
de-escalation isn't doing nothing, but even if we do simplify de-escalation to doing nothing, then at the very least doing nothing is challenging the russian narrative, and, once you factor in time, doing nothing doesn't mean nothing happens - especially given the coming presidential election that we hope will happen at the end of the month, which will go some way to repositioning the issue of legitimacy.
 
2014-05-01 01:26:44 PM  

21-7-b: de-escalation isn't doing nothing, but even if we do simplify de-escalation to doing nothing, then at the very least doing nothing is challenging the russian narrative, and, once you factor in time, doing nothing doesn't mean nothing happens - especially given the coming presidential election that we hope will happen at the end of the month, which will go some way to repositioning the issue of legitimacy.


Thank you Neville Chamberlain.

You know, right now ol' Vladimir Vladimirovich is laughing his ass off knowing that there are people like you actually saying crap like that.

He's got all the time in the world and pretty much zero incentive to back off.   While you talk about 'de-escalation', he's infiltrating more troops into the area disguised as "protesters" and local "militia" who all seem to be much better and more uniformly armed and accoutered than any militia in the United States, not to mention younger and in what appears to be good physical shape.

All he's got to do is wait and let yammerheads talk about de-escalation and the like, while quietly consolidating his gains and backing up those gains with the threat of force (ie., invasion).
 
2014-05-01 01:28:54 PM  

dittybopper: 21-7-b: de-escalation isn't doing nothing, but even if we do simplify de-escalation to doing nothing, then at the very least doing nothing is challenging the russian narrative, and, once you factor in time, doing nothing doesn't mean nothing happens - especially given the coming presidential election that we hope will happen at the end of the month, which will go some way to repositioning the issue of legitimacy.

Thank you Neville Chamberlain.

You know, right now ol' Vladimir Vladimirovich is laughing his ass off knowing that there are people like you actually saying crap like that.

He's got all the time in the world and pretty much zero incentive to back off.   While you talk about 'de-escalation', he's infiltrating more troops into the area disguised as "protesters" and local "militia" who all seem to be much better and more uniformly armed and accoutered than any militia in the United States, not to mention younger and in what appears to be good physical shape.

All he's got to do is wait and let yammerheads talk about de-escalation and the like, while quietly consolidating his gains and backing up those gains with the threat of force (ie., invasion).


and out come the ad hominems.
 
2014-05-01 01:32:35 PM  
what you need to do is jump in to the next security council meeting, explain to them about this neville guy you've heard about, tell them how all of them have got it wrong but you've had a think about it and have the answer and they have to do what you say when you say it and we'll be out of this mess in a flash
 
2014-05-01 01:39:46 PM  
you can honestly contribute to the discussion by saying "i believe abc for reason mno and so would recommend xyz but i don't know enough about 123456789 to fully take those into account" but the moment you assume that you know more than the assembled security apparatus of the west you're not worth listening to
 
2014-05-01 01:57:36 PM  

21-7-b: and out come the ad hominems.


OK, the Neville Chamberlain thing was below the belt, but I stand by this:

He's got all the time in the world and pretty much zero incentive to back off.   While you talk about 'de-escalation', he's infiltrating more troops into the area disguised as "protesters" and local "militia" who all seem to be much better and more uniformly armed and accoutered than any militia in the United States, not to mention younger and in what appears to be good physical shape.
 
2014-05-01 02:01:41 PM  

21-7-b: what you need to do is jump in to the next security council meeting, explain to them about this neville guy you've heard about, tell them how all of them have got it wrong but you've had a think about it and have the answer and they have to do what you say when you say it and we'll be out of this mess in a flash


If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.  - Winston Churchill.

The Ukraine should have been a bit more willing to fight, though I understand their circumspection.

Also, the Security Council?  Please.  Russia has a permanent seat, and veto power, which basically means the Security Council can't do squat.
 
rpl
2014-05-01 02:54:04 PM  

way south: MindStalker: Media, stop calling these guys protesters. They aren't protesters, they are armed militia members..

They look more like uniformed soldiers.
I mean, they're wearing uniforms and badges and everything...

/Ukraine is showing alot more restraint than lack of security.
/Shooting these guys would be easy, but then we'd find out who their boss is two seconds later.


dyvys.info

the maidan guys had uniforms and badges and everything. Same modus operandi too; take over government buildings. If that was a spontaneous organization of like-minded free spirits scraping by on the goodwill of its supporting population, why can't this be one, too?
 
2014-05-01 04:23:05 PM  

rpl: the maidan guys had uniforms and badges and everything. Same modus operandi too; take over government buildings. If that was a spontaneous organization of like-minded free spirits scraping by on the goodwill of its supporting population, why can't this be one, too?


Are you seriously claiming "the maidan guys" were working for another country that's trying to carve off a piece of Ukraine? Really?
 
2014-05-01 04:38:23 PM  
For those who wants Ukraine to "stop being nice" - Ukraine isn't. Ukraine, so far, have sent police, special forces of 3 kinds and the army to deal with separatists and protesters.

Police doesn't even pretend to following orders. Special forces tried, both sides lost some guys in resulting shootouts, special forces said to Kiev "go to hell, you want take them, take them yourselves." Army tried, and you all have seen what happened (for those who haven't seen, separatists now have tanks of their own, surrendered to them by Ukrainian Army).

It's not that Kiev doesn't want to kill all the separatists. It's just that current Ukrainian powers have no actual power in their own country.
 
2014-05-01 04:39:15 PM  
dittybopper

afaik there hasn't been an exodus of military people in the know trotting off to the press with their thoughts after resigning in disgust over what was previously forwarded as the west's chamberlain-like appeasement, even though they could score huge political points by doing so and it would allow them to forward their narrative. most of the serious current commentators i have read, by very far, favor de-escalation

i believe putin is up to no good, and i am well aware of a number of the reasons that control of ukraine is important to putin. i think his desire to control ukraine is beyond doubt and i think that he is trying to do so is also beyond doubt. i think he is prepared to take out those who oppose him, by a variety of means. i am well aware that, at the moment, he wants the world to know he believes he has a strong hand and may try to play it how he sees fit when he sees fit. i am more than willing to back measures that aim to resist his intention. however, i am quite sure that western leaders are doing everything they think they can get away with politically to reduce the evident risk putin is determined to pose

but i don't know enough about a multitude of things that are relevant to the discussion. for example, i know a fair bit, effectively from my own research on google, through relevant news media, as well as through reading serious work on the current and past state of affairs, about the way people in ukraine lean, where, why, how much and what problems there are that are relevant to the discussion. but, compared to specialized analysts and planners with effectively unlimited budgets working night and day on this, what i know i have to admit is superficial and i believe it would be foolish for me to think otherwise. i would wager i know far more that is relevant to the discussion than over 99% of the population, but, for example again, i would also wager that the whole of ukraine, including the security apparatus, is riddled with russian agents and others easily bought off or who won't fight russia or separatist ukrainians, but i don't have any worthwhile data to make even the slightest assumption about what that actually really would result in in practice

i have no idea what overall scenarios are being given weight by the politicians, nor why, nor how much weight. i wouldn't expect a politician to come out and say exactly the ways they are thinking this can play out, the chances they are arriving at, the finer, or even the broader, details of their game plan, nor publish every bit of data available for those of us interested to weigh in on

but, to me, it's quite clear, as i said, that putin is determined to pose a problem for ukraine as it is. that seems to be the root of it that, those of us who do not think the west is the problem, can agree upon given the information available. and then there is something to be said for the idea that, if you recognize putin as the problem for ukraine as it is, he is so also for russia, neighboring states, and even the world. so you can argue that that problem deserves to be met militarily; but even if you agree with that, you could argue that making threats to that end could be counter-productive

because of putin we are trying to deal with a lot of problems in ukraine, but we are also trying to deal with problems he presents on numerous other fronts. "stopping putin," outside of the most extreme scenarios, goes far beyond the next couple of months. although it would escalate the situation, i don't believe for one moment that the pronouncement of a threat of military force, from anywhere, in response to a russian invasion to "protect russians" would stop putin's ambition to control ukraine, and the threat of turning ukraine into iraq in the mouths of the propagandists and minds of the people could well turn more people towards russia as a safer bet. also, i don't believe that an armed assault on the separatists, from anywhere, would stop putin's ambition to control ukraine, but again, it would escalate the situation and could turn more people to russia as a safer bet. that doesn't rule out a military response against the separatists or in the actual event of a russian invasion, but simply flags up that neither carries with it anything like a guarantee of a net positive result regarding popular support, and everybody knows this, so selling either as the core of your position is not a great idea when legitimacy is already being challenged.

you rightly mention the issue of putin using the continuing passing of time to bolster his position. there's no doubt about that. and you rightly mention the issue of control of territory relating to sovereignty. and, of course, as time passes and the territory remains in the control of the separatists their legitimacy increases, and their ability to intimidate or buy off people that present a problem for them increases; and that represents a real problem, because the real issues now are the need to contain the separatists so far as possible, limit their legitimacy, limit russian involvement and increase central legitimacy. i think cracking down on the separatists runs a very high risk of negatively, from our point of view, impacting each of those

like i say, though, i'm just an observer

rousing stuff from churchill. unfortunately, i'm not aware of a churchillian figure rallying the people in ukraine as per our man during ww2. that would certainly add something to the mix, although i would imagine if there was someone making such statements it would be used as evidence of the very reincarnation of hitler by russia! but, joking aside, great words, but not necessarily words that should be applied with no further comment in equal measure to every situation

i give you a quote in return, from the utility of force, the art of war in the modern world, by rupert smith (bio here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Smith), somewhat more modern and hopefully more to the question of which we are interested

For the rule of law to be supported and enhanced such that the people support it, the military measures must be focused on the lawbreakers. This demands good information and intelligence, precision in the attack or arrest, and a successful prosecution. Every time the innocent, even if they support the lawbreaker, are attacked or arrested, killed or imprisoned, the law is diminished and the ultimate objective of the people's will to support it is made more difficult to achieve. The more the measures to impose order involve terrorising the population the more the position of the opponent as their defender is enhanced - and the less likely you are to gain the strategic objective, the will of the people.

my opinion, is that, quite aside from the likely event of a russian invasion following it, given the facts on the ground, an attempt by the central government to effectively crack down on the separatists at this time would lead to problems suggested by the quote - not least because even the armed separatists are, somewhat to my amazement, often considered civilians by the propagandists, and then beyond that core, of course, are many, many others who would get in the way or take a beating for mother russia. i think it would be a disaster and is exactly what putin wants - not only to justify an invasion, but also for the support it would give pro-russians and the legitimacy it would deny pro-ukrainians - i.e. the escalation that i feel it would bring about
 
rpl
2014-05-01 05:50:40 PM  

Wooly Bully: rpl: the maidan guys had uniforms and badges and everything. Same modus operandi too; take over government buildings. If that was a spontaneous organization of like-minded free spirits scraping by on the goodwill of its supporting population, why can't this be one, too?

Are you seriously claiming "the maidan guys" were working for another country that's trying to carve off a piece of Ukraine? Really?


I'm saying that Ukraine is the kind of place where spontaneous protests seem to quickly evolve into groups of well equipped and outfitted armed men in uniforms with a clear hierarchy and goals. Maybe it's the climate, I dunno. Either way, I personally don't see a difference between them.

(for the record; the shields on my pic say "the 14th self-defense hundred". Not bad, huh?)
 
Al!
2014-05-01 06:47:19 PM  
dittybopper:


You do yourself and your position a great disservice by continually referring to Ukraine as "The" Ukraine, a title that was a shortened version of "The Ukrainian SSR," which was dropped decades ago, along with all other ties to Soviet rule.  It is as incorrect as calling Bangladesh "East Pakistan."
 
2014-05-01 07:37:48 PM  

Wooly Bully: rpl: the maidan guys had uniforms and badges and everything. Same modus operandi too; take over government buildings. If that was a spontaneous organization of like-minded free spirits scraping by on the goodwill of its supporting population, why can't this be one, too?

Are you seriously claiming "the maidan guys" were working for another country that's trying to carve off a piece of Ukraine? Really?


Clearly that is a spontaneous group of "protesters" - Thanks for clearing that up for us. I can see how it is an absolute crazy stretch to think they were somehow organized troops, equipped with uniforms, weapons, face masks and militarily trained.. just a crazy stretch. Somebody would have to be completely insane to think that.


/The part about them just being "protesters" that is, or even believing they are actually Ukrainians.
 
2014-05-01 08:09:57 PM  

LesserEvil: Clearly that is a spontaneous group of "protesters" - Thanks for clearing that up for us. I can see how it is an absolute crazy stretch to think they were somehow organized troops, equipped with uniforms, weapons, face masks and militarily trained.. just a crazy stretch. Somebody would have to be completely insane to think that.


/The part about them just being "protesters" that is, or even believing they are actually Ukrainians.


Go on, tell us who "the maidan guys" really are! I can hardly wait, this should be good.
 
2014-05-01 10:03:07 PM  
#sloviansk
 
2014-05-01 10:06:32 PM  

Wooly Bully: LesserEvil: Clearly that is a spontaneous group of "protesters" - Thanks for clearing that up for us. I can see how it is an absolute crazy stretch to think they were somehow organized troops, equipped with uniforms, weapons, face masks and militarily trained.. just a crazy stretch. Somebody would have to be completely insane to think that.


/The part about them just being "protesters" that is, or even believing they are actually Ukrainians.

Go on, tell us who "the maidan guys" really are! I can hardly wait, this should be good.


I'm not the one who happily believes everything RT reports on in the Ukraine as the untainted truth. I'm not quite sure why you are so happy to slobber all over Putin's knob... the guy is only about a hair to the left of a certain German National Socialist and following the playbook to the letter.
 
Esn
2014-05-02 02:51:58 AM  

21-7-b: but, to me, it's quite clear, as i said, that putin is determined to pose a problem for ukraine as it is.


You know, I think Western commentary has it wrong, focusing so much on Putin. Putin cannot capitulate to the West's demands right now, because it would cause him huge political difficulties at home if he did. He does not have a free hand to do anything he wants. If it sometimes looks like it, it's because he's very good at navigating the political currents. That anti-Putin uprising in 2011? Putin defeated it in the end, but he didn't get away Scott-free, he had to improve salaries, pensions and social programs.

You say that this is all about "might is right", but that's not true - the justifications matter, because they're what will determine whether the Ukrainian army battalions sent to fight the Easterners will actually fight them, or refuse to obey orders, or even join the rebels. Fighting a war in a place where the local population is totally against you is very difficult, and that is true for both sides!

Right now, the West is losing the PR battle in much of the world, including China, India and South America. Even in their own countries, where there is a media blackout on intelligent analysts from the pro-Russian side (with rare exceptions), there seems to be dissent among the public, who may not like Putin but can see the shaky moral positioning of the West.

Putin has PhD-holding professors of history making some very convincing arguments in support of his actions (I highly recommend that link, btw). Just because folks like that are never allowed to be heard in the West doesn't mean that the population of Eastern Ukraine doesn't hear those voices - they can and they do, and with every passing day they become more convinced by them.
 
2014-05-02 03:55:01 AM  

Esn: 21-7-b: but, to me, it's quite clear, as i said, that putin is determined to pose a problem for ukraine as it is.

You know, I think Western commentary has it wrong, focusing so much on Putin. Putin cannot capitulate to the West's demands right now, because it would cause him huge political difficulties at home if he did. He does not have a free hand to do anything he wants. If it sometimes looks like it, it's because he's very good at navigating the political currents. That anti-Putin uprising in 2011? Putin defeated it in the end, but he didn't get away Scott-free, he had to improve salaries, pensions and social programs.

You say that this is all about "might is right", but that's not true - the justifications matter, because they're what will determine whether the Ukrainian army battalions sent to fight the Easterners will actually fight them, or refuse to obey orders, or even join the rebels. Fighting a war in a place where the local population is totally against you is very difficult, and that is true for both sides!

Right now, the West is losing the PR battle in much of the world, including China, India and South America. Even in their own countries, where there is a media blackout on intelligent analysts from the pro-Russian side (with rare exceptions), there seems to be dissent among the public, who may not like Putin but can see the shaky moral positioning of the West.

Putin has PhD-holding professors of history making some very convincing arguments in support of his actions (I highly recommend that link, btw). Just because folks like that are never allowed to be heard in the West doesn't mean that the population of Eastern Ukraine doesn't hear those voices - they can and they do, and with every passing day they become more convinced by them.

 forbes rated putin the most powerful man in the world, yet he is in charge of a country with the gdp of italy. this is because within that country he has taken ever-increasing control of social, political, military, legal, economic and media power - all to an entirely unhealthy degree. he has been in charge for 15 years and has set himself up for at least another 10. the man is a dictator. now he has decided that neighboring sovereign states will only be allowed to exist when they submit to what he considers his territorial power.
putin has always had a choice - to facilitate the effective sharing of power under his control, or to take more of it for himself. he has always chosen to take more of it for himself. and there is only one person to blame for the fact he finds himself in a corneri can tell you that i have something magnificent in a box with something extremely ordinary in, and if you're gullible and desperate you might believe me. then i can shut down your ability to find out what is in that box for yourself. but it's still very much less than magnificent and one day you are going to open the box and find out. that's the position putin is very much in. rather than spending his energy on creating something magnificent and putting it in the box, he spends his energy on getting hold of the magnificent things for himself and taking measures to stop you looking in the box. trouble is, as the world evolves, people always find a way of looking in the box in the end. and so we arrive at the point when, rather than taking measures to share power and strengthen the rule of law and democracy in russia, to create an informed electorate, and integrate russia into the world community - as he surely ought to do and as we all want him to do for the good of russia - he instead decides that he should distract from his own problems by pumping the people full of even more bullshiat and forcing himself upon ukraine. and that is exactly what he is doing.you think putin is winning the pr war? let's look at who supported russia, with a gdp the size of italy (2 trillion usd), at the un recently, after much lobbying from russia, regarding russia'sbehavior towards crimea: belarus (0.06 trillion usd gdp), north korea (0.01), cuba (0.07), syria (0.05), venezuela (0.4), sudan (0.05), zimbabwe (0.001), bolivia (0.03), armenia (0.001) and nicaragua (0.001)compare that to those most opposed to russia that putin is bringing closer together - the us, europe, japan, canada, and australia alone 40 trillion+ usdputin isn't winning any war. he's got brainwashed nashi and rt viewers and morons longing for a return to the soviet union, but all they'll do is tell you how the box you've already seen in contains something it doesn't. china and india have their eye on russia, for sure, for when they need a biatch. putin is lord of the flies, because what is in that box is a turdsensible people want russia to become a genuine, worthwhile partner in world affairs, not an adversary. but the sad fact is that putin needs russia to have adversaries to justify his own rule and the course he continues to take. the soviet union lost the cold war. putin seems to be trying to lose it a second time
 
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