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(CNN)   GOP to poor Americans: "Folks, we get it. We see now that we've been selling you out to Big Business and Big Oil. Well, no more. Today, we change. From here on, we represent YOU." Ha Got you. I'm kidding, they just blocked the minimum wage bill   (cnn.com) divider line 190
    More: Sad, GOP, Americans, Senate, Mark Pryor, nurse's aide, minimum wages  
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1164 clicks; posted to Politics » on 30 Apr 2014 at 5:38 PM (13 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-30 02:28:45 PM
"Democrats have portrayed the GOP as insensitive to the needs of low-wage workers."

Well sure, in the ME! ME! ME! language of politics in the US that line might work but there's every reason to believe that an artificially low minimum wage is depressing the economy as a whole. So congratulations to the GOP, you've farked over everyone in order to pay lip-service to ideology.
 
2014-04-30 02:35:29 PM
Sen. Susan Collins, Republican of Maine, also said she supports a reasonable increase in the minimum wage that could be debated.
"There's a huge area of compromise available here between $7.25 and $10.10. I think it speaks to what's wrong with Washington today -- that we're placed in a situation where it was 'take it or leave it' rather than trying to come together and offer amendments and offer a level that might be acceptable," she said after the vote.



Thank you, Senator Obvious.
 
2014-04-30 02:41:41 PM
www.libertyjuice.com


"A rising tide lifts all boats" only helps if you're rich enough to have a boat. Most people just drown.
 
2014-04-30 02:45:26 PM

Therion: "A rising tide lifts all boats" only helps if you're rich enough to have a boat. Most people just drown.


That's what's been happening, albeit slowly, since the 80's and we've reached a point where the water is at a lot of people's necks. Something needs to change.
 
2014-04-30 02:47:41 PM

Voiceofreason01: That's what's been happening, albeit slowly, since the 80's and we've reached a point where the water is at a lot of people's necks. Something needs to change.


Have you heard of wage stagnation?


Clearly not.
 
2014-04-30 04:13:02 PM
Nope. Not surprised.
 
2014-04-30 04:16:45 PM

Voiceofreason01: "Democrats have portrayed the GOP as insensitive to the needs of low-wage workers."

Well sure, in the ME! ME! ME! language of politics in the US that line might work but there's every reason to believe that an artificially low minimum wage is depressing the economy as a whole. So congratulations to the GOP, you've farked over everyone in order to pay lip-service to ideology.


THe sentence isn't even really accurate, the GOP has portrayed the GOP as insensitive to the needs of low-wage workers.  All the Democrats have done is say, "See that?  There they go again."
 
2014-04-30 04:19:35 PM

xanadian: Sen. Susan Collins, Republican of Maine, also said she supports a reasonable increase in the minimum wage that could be debated.
"There's a huge area of compromise available here between $7.25 and $10.10. I think it speaks to what's wrong with Washington today -- that we're placed in a situation where it was 'take it or leave it' rather than trying to come together and offer amendments and offer a level that might be acceptable," she said after the vote.


Thank you, Senator Obvious.


The $10.10 is already a compromise.  It really should be closer to $15.

The Democrats unfortunately go into negotiations asking for what they actually want.  They need to start out asking for something ridiculous, let the GOP lowball a counter offer, then meet in the middle where they wanted to be all along.
 
2014-04-30 04:20:26 PM
Instead of raising the minimum wage, we should *lower* it. That is the best thing for creating more jobs.
 
2014-04-30 04:21:41 PM

Rev.K: Voiceofreason01: That's what's been happening, albeit slowly, since the 80's and we've reached a point where the water is at a lot of people's necks. Something needs to change.

Have you heard of wage stagnation?


Clearly not.


Isn't that precisely what he's describing?
 
2014-04-30 04:28:55 PM
Remember what happened last time we raised the minimum wage (law signed 2007, last statutory increase was July 2009)? The whole world economy crashed. Is that what you want?
 
2014-04-30 04:29:09 PM
Because fark your need to afford such frivolous expenditures like FOOD.
 
2014-04-30 04:32:02 PM
Problems with everything, solutions for nothing

/Go Team Sh*tstain
 
2014-04-30 04:34:26 PM

xanadian: Sen. Susan Collins, Republican of Maine, also said she supports a reasonable increase in the minimum wage that could be debated.
"There's a huge area of compromise available here between $7.25 and $10.10. I think it speaks to what's wrong with Washington today -- that we're placed in a situation where it was 'take it or leave it' rather than trying to come together and offer amendments and offer a level that might be acceptable," she said after the vote.


Thank you, Senator Obvious.


She has a point, at least for people in Congress. A nickel an hour is more than she or any of her colleagues are worth.
 
2014-04-30 04:35:43 PM

vernonFL: Instead of raising the minimum wage, we should *lower* it. That is the best thing for creating more jobs.


Robots are still cheaper long-term.
 
2014-04-30 04:37:09 PM
democrats want to raise the minimum wage, republicans want to repeal obamacare.
translation: democrats want to help people, republicans want to hurt people.
 
2014-04-30 04:40:34 PM

vernonFL: Instead of raising the minimum wage, we should *lower* it. That is the best thing for creating more jobs.


Which will ultimately result in less available jobs since more people will need two jobs in order to survive.
 
2014-04-30 04:49:56 PM
To be fair, not passing the bill is a massive net gain to:

Everyone not making minimum wage (Well, technically new_wage>current_pay>=old_wage, but *shrug*) who would've paid higher prices.
The 500K folks who would've been fired after their productive worth to their company fell below the new minimum wage.

And a massive loss to:

The people making minimum wage
Slumlords renting to people making minimum wage plus welfare.
Computer Programmers who would've written a bunch of programs to replace those 500K people.


Of course, all those lists are partial.

It's not exactly working for the entire American people.  It's a major screwing to certain people and a major unscrewing of other people.  Whether or not that's a net gain in your eyes...*shrug*.

/Besides, it's not like the Hispanics work for minimum wage to begin with, so it only makes the legals even LESS competitive with the illegals and China.
//So if you want to do some protectionism and forced deportation, we can chat.  I'm still probably against it, but less so.
 
2014-04-30 04:54:27 PM

meyerkev: To be fair, not passing the bill is a massive net gain to:

Everyone not making minimum wage (Well, technically new_wage>current_pay>=old_wage, but *shrug*) who would've paid higher prices.
The 500K folks who would've been fired after their productive worth to their company fell below the new minimum wage.


Disagree entirely. I think any increase in prices due to minimum wage would be small compared to how the economy as a whole would benefit from more people having more buying power in general. More money circulating and more goods and services being purchased as minimum wage workers get more breathing room for actually buying things would probably lead to wages going up across the board in general, and the half million dollar figure seems spurious.
 
2014-04-30 04:58:21 PM
i58.tinypic.com
 
2014-04-30 05:00:02 PM

FlashHarry: democrats want to raise the minimum wage, republicans want to repeal obamacare.
translation: democrats want to help people, republicans want to hurt people.


It  easier than that. Democrats are evil. Republicans are evil. Vote Republican.
 
2014-04-30 05:02:05 PM

vernonFL: Instead of raising the minimum wage, we should *lower* it. That is the best thing for creating more jobs.


In fact, we should abolish it entirely, let anyone who wants to work negotiate themselves with the employer. And if the employer wants to pay in company scrip, hey, at least the employees have a store they can shop at and a roof over their head.
 
2014-04-30 05:03:25 PM

meyerkev: The 500K folks who would've been fired after their productive worth to their company fell below the new minimum wage.


The who in the what now?
 
2014-04-30 05:07:46 PM

vernonFL: Instead of raising the minimum wage, we should *lower* it. That is the best thing for creating more jobs.


That's the GOP stance. And they're "compromising" by leaving it at the current rate. See how concessionary they are? It's the Democrats who are unwilling to bend.
 
2014-04-30 05:12:03 PM
And millions of Americans will continue to vote for them just to stick it to the libs
 
2014-04-30 05:20:35 PM

Soup4Bonnie: meyerkev: The 500K folks who would've been fired after their productive worth to their company fell below the new minimum wage.

The who in the what now?


Employee E makes wage W, requires S to even bother getting out of bed in the morning, and provides value V to the company.

By definition, if E is employed, W>S and as an average, V>W.  Of course, this is an average.  There's plenty of overpaid and WAY underpaid people, but if you hire enough people E>V, then you go under.   That's the definition of value-add and producer/consumer surplus.

So when you take an entire class of people making wage W, and force them to make Wnew, then by definition, there's going to be somebody where Wnew>V.  A lot of somebodies.
 
2014-04-30 05:21:09 PM
www.motherjones.com

How do all these other countries keep their economies from collapsing?
 
2014-04-30 05:31:01 PM

nmrsnr: vernonFL: Instead of raising the minimum wage, we should *lower* it. That is the best thing for creating more jobs.

In fact, we should abolish it entirely, let anyone who wants to work negotiate themselves with the employer. And if the employer wants to pay in company scrip, hey, at least the employees have a store they can shop at and a roof over their head.


And if that employee needs a little extra scrip before the next pay day, they can owe the company store. A shiatty idea that has been tried before.
 
2014-04-30 05:39:48 PM

Bloody William: meyerkev: To be fair, not passing the bill is a massive net gain to:

Everyone not making minimum wage (Well, technically new_wage>current_pay>=old_wage, but *shrug*) who would've paid higher prices.
The 500K folks who would've been fired after their productive worth to their company fell below the new minimum wage.

Disagree entirely. I think any increase in prices due to minimum wage would be small compared to how the economy as a whole would benefit from more people having more buying power in general. More money circulating and more goods and services being purchased as minimum wage workers get more breathing room for actually buying things would probably lead to wages going up across the board in general, and the half million dollar figure seems spurious.


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/02/18/cbo-minimum-w ag e-jobs/5582779/ - 500K jobs.  CBO says it, I'm in no way qualified to say whether they're idiots.

But the problem is that I don't buy this for a second.

Think of the cost of an item as priced in labor-hours by type.   Every single thing that has "Minimum wage labor" in it just had its price go up.  Every last thing.

A) Now IF you're a minimum wage worker, this is great.  Your wage went up.  Sure, prices went up not quite as much, but screw it.

B) If you're not a minimum wage worker, that sucks.  Because your wage didn't go up and the price of everything you buy did.

And my point is that I think that A matters, B also matters.

Imagine that the USA was nothing but a giant factory with 2 types of Workers, A and B, where every single need was met by Widget W.   So the price of a widget is at minimum the total labor cost.

Widget W takes 1 hour of A and 1 hour of B.  So W's price is A + B.

If A makes half of what B makes, A needs to work 3 hours to afford W, and B needs to work 1.5.  (Plus there's some value-add profit in there).

If A gets a pay raise to make what B makes, A can now afford it in 2 hours, but B just took a paycut to 2 hours.  All because A got a raise.  So there's an advantage to A, but a disadvantage to B, and  we aren't actually producing more widgets.

Now the best way to truly raise the standard of living is to raise the productivity.   Drop the price of W to .5A + .5B, and hey, everyone just doubled their salary.  (Of course, since Corporation C wants their cut, they'll probably hold the price of W constant until C2 shows up and charges less money, while giving their A's and B's a pay increase.  Because C's share is surplus that you can attack).

/And of course, this entire thing assumes that the Asian growth model doesn't exist.
//Seriously, that farking thing has done more damage to the West than both World Wars.  Even Germany's using it to fark over the rest of the EU.
 
2014-04-30 05:40:36 PM

fusillade762: [www.motherjones.com image 600x353]

How do all these other countries keep their economies from collapsing?


http://www.forbes.com/sites/jessecolombo/2014/03/05/why-the-worst-is -s till-ahead-for-turkeys-bubble-economy/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/9914644/Unemployment-in -F rance-hits-14-year-high.html
http://www.economist.com/node/15838029 - The PIIGS that won't fly.
I'm never going to count Eastern Europe as non-collapsed economies just as a class.  (Better than they were, but half a century of Communism was not kind).  Call them a null point, because of the Communism issue.
And Belgium has 0% capital gains taxes.


So of the left half of your graph, I'm going to say that only 3 of them are doing all that well.  New Zealand and Australia (British cultural norms in a beautiful setting) and Israel (hard-working religious nuts under existential threat every day they live there).

/And oh hey, we're right next to Japan.  Fine, lost decades, but that's been because of 2 decades of rebalancing.
 
2014-04-30 05:41:58 PM
That headline could have used some minimum words.
 
2014-04-30 05:42:36 PM
The GOP will keep driving nails into it's coffin as long as it has the strength to hate.
 
2014-04-30 05:43:41 PM

meyerkev: Now the best way to truly raise the standard of living is to raise the productivity.


Like workers have been for 60 years? Now they'd like the money to go with it.
 
2014-04-30 05:45:08 PM
So, anyway. Tomorrow is May Day.

May 1st is a public holiday in 80 countries, but not in the United States because Republicans hate workers.

Maybe Fark could ignore anything the GOP shills post for one day tomorrow. Moderators, I know you know who they are. Just a suggestion.
 
2014-04-30 05:46:05 PM

meyerkev: A) Now IF you're a minimum wage worker, this is great.  Your wage went up.  Sure, prices went up not quite as much, but screw it.

B) If you're not a minimum wage worker, that sucks.  Because your wage didn't go up and the price of everything you buy did.


This is already on ridiculously shaky logical ground. The minimum wage going up puts upward pressure on the wages of those already making more than the minimum wage, or employers risk losing them to less demanding jobs that now command similar pay.

You're also ignoring the fact that this would function as a stimulus to the overall economy, since poor people tend to spend more of what they earn because they still have many unmet needs.
 
2014-04-30 05:46:24 PM

Delay: So, anyway. Tomorrow is May Day.

May 1st is a public holiday in 80 countries, but not in the United States because Republicans hate workers.

Maybe Fark could ignore anything the GOP shills post for one day tomorrow. Moderators, I know you know who they are. Just a suggestion.


We should be in the streets demanding a labor day!
 
2014-04-30 05:46:57 PM

fusillade762: [www.motherjones.com image 600x353]

How do all these other countries keep their economies from collapsing?


Not much to derive from that graph. It could either mean a low min wage, or a high median wage (see Luxembourg).
 
2014-04-30 05:47:35 PM

Cletus C.: Delay: So, anyway. Tomorrow is May Day.

May 1st is a public holiday in 80 countries, but not in the United States because Republicans hate workers.

Maybe Fark could ignore anything the GOP shills post for one day tomorrow. Moderators, I know you know who they are. Just a suggestion.

We should be in the streets demanding a labor day concessions!


Yeah, probably.
 
2014-04-30 05:49:01 PM

meyerkev: Employee E makes wage W, requires S to even bother getting out of bed in the morning, and provides value V to the company.

By definition, if E is employed, W>S and as an average, V>W.  Of course, this is an average.  There's plenty of overpaid and WAY underpaid people, but if you hire enough people E>V, then you go under.   That's the definition of value-add and producer/consumer surplus.

So when you take an entire class of people making wage W, and force them to make Wnew, then by definition, there's going to be somebody where Wnew>V.  A lot of somebodies.


Thanks, Human Computing Machine.  Where did you get your "500K folks" from, Mr. Roboto?
 
2014-04-30 05:49:52 PM

meyerkev: Now the best way to truly raise the standard of living is to raise the productivity.


The gains from increased productivity have all gone to the rich, while working people's real compensation has actually declined.

Were you joking when you typed that?
 
2014-04-30 05:50:58 PM
There the Democrats go, trying to buy poor people off with entitlements  Again.

Who says that anyone should be "entitled" to make money for doing unskilled work?  Capitalism is about trade, and the poor have nothing of value to offer.

On the same token, it makes no sense  politically for Democrats to court the poors.  I mean, they know that poor people don't have any money, right?  No money, no power.  Who cares if they're unhappy?  Their opinions don't even matter!
 
2014-04-30 05:51:29 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: meyerkev: Now the best way to truly raise the standard of living is to raise the productivity.

Like workers have been for 60 years? Now they'd like the money to go with it.


The worst thing that ever happened to the American economy was Nixon going to China,and the rise of the Asian growth model.   http://blog.mpettis.com/2014/03/economic-consequences-of-income-inequ a lity/

/Read the link.  It's actually relevant.
//Oh, and illegal immigration as well as chain immigration.
 
2014-04-30 05:52:06 PM

Wooly Bully: meyerkev: Now the best way to truly raise the standard of living is to raise the productivity.

The gains from increased productivity have all gone to the rich, while working people's real compensation has actually declined.

Were you joking when you typed that?


Seriously, Americans are some of the most productive workers on the planet and it's done f*ck all for the average worker here.
 
2014-04-30 05:52:47 PM

Voiceofreason01: "Democrats have portrayed the GOP as insensitive to the needs of low-wage workers."

Well sure, in the ME! ME! ME! language of politics in the US that line might work but there's every reason to believe that an artificially low minimum wage is depressing the economy as a whole. So congratulations to the GOP, you've farked over everyone in order to pay lip-service to ideology.


I would say that with prominent Republicans calling for repealing the minimum wage, it's the GOP portraying itself as insensitive to low-wage workers. That and cutting unemployment benefits and food stamps while supporting all kinds of "incentives" to rich businessmen and corporations.

In short, that's kinda like Chis Christie saying his jeans make his ass look fat.
 
2014-04-30 05:53:55 PM
And the only reason is because democcrats amd Obama are for it.
 
2014-04-30 05:54:52 PM

UrukHaiGuyz: meyerkev: A) Now IF you're a minimum wage worker, this is great.  Your wage went up.  Sure, prices went up not quite as much, but screw it.

B) If you're not a minimum wage worker, that sucks.  Because your wage didn't go up and the price of everything you buy did.

This is already on ridiculously shaky logical ground. The minimum wage going up puts upward pressure on the wages of those already making more than the minimum wage, or employers risk losing them to less demanding jobs that now command similar pay.

You're also ignoring the fact that this would function as a stimulus to the overall economy, since poor people tend to spend more of what they earn because they still have many unmet needs.


Ok, but then you're right back where you started except a bunch of inflation later.

And we're not arguing my original point.

My original point was that raising the minimum wage was a mixed bag.  There were some people it would hurt and some people it would help.  Whether or not the latter beat the former depended on your personal inclinations.

And of course, since you wouldn't have actually increased the average tradeoff between capital/labor and widgets, then there was no way that this would lead to rising standards of living across the board*.

You've increased the amount of money in everyone's pockets, but go ask Zimbabwe how well that's working out for them.

* Unless there is, at which point I'm legitimately curious.
 
2014-04-30 05:55:18 PM

fusillade762: [www.motherjones.com image 600x353]

How do all these other countries keep their economies from collapsing?


USA pays for their defense? and or foreign aid?
 
2014-04-30 05:55:28 PM

Cletus C.: Delay: So, anyway. Tomorrow is May Day.

May 1st is a public holiday in 80 countries, but not in the United States because Republicans hate workers.

Maybe Fark could ignore anything the GOP shills post for one day tomorrow. Moderators, I know you know who they are. Just a suggestion.

We should be in the streets demanding a labor day!


No, that is not what I suggested. May 1st is set aside as a day for workers, not Republican shills. What I suggest is that Fark moderators pitch the well known right wing pay-for-click folks for just one day. I know Fark needs to pay its bills, but why not exclude them for just one day? And, seriously, I pay for Fark as you can see above.
 
2014-04-30 05:55:41 PM

meyerkev: So when you take an entire class of people making wage W, and force them to make Wnew, then by definition, there's going to be somebody where Wnew>V.  A lot of somebodies.


Except you're assuming that V doesn't increase. I don't think that's correct, except in the short term. V should increase if the value of the employee's contribution to the company also increases.

Take a sales job, for example. In the first month, let's say the first quarter just for room to argue, people making the higher wage will probably be paying off debt or stocking the larder. After some basic necessities are caught up on, some of that additional wage will find its way into circulation (stocking up also contributes to the economy, but you're not going to make a lot off of basic staples). If more people are buying the goods or services that the employee offers for sale, then his value to the company will also increase, and your breakpoint changes.
 
2014-04-30 05:56:17 PM

meyerkev: Dusk-You-n-Me: meyerkev: Now the best way to truly raise the standard of living is to raise the productivity.

Like workers have been for 60 years? Now they'd like the money to go with it.

The worst thing that ever happened to the American economy was Nixon going to China,and the rise of the Asian growth model.   http://blog.mpettis.com/2014/03/economic-consequences-of-income-inequ a lity/

/Read the link.  It's actually relevant.
//Oh, and illegal immigration as well as chain immigration.


Reading.

Actually pretty interesting so far.  He doesn't go cuckoo at the end, I hope.
 
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