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(The Mary Sue)   Marvel Comics president Joe Quesada says he rooted for Zod all through Man of Steel   (themarysue.com ) divider line
    More: Silly, Joe Quesada, marvel, Man of Steel, Marvel Entertainment, Inc., This Is Spinal Tap, Pa Kent, Jor-El, Krypton  
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2235 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 30 Apr 2014 at 4:09 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-05-01 12:20:31 AM  

MechaPyx: rocky_howard: MechaPyx: Also, when Superman is on their ship he loses his powers because he starts breathing the Kryptonian atmosphere and yet when the Kryptonians are running around in environmental suits they're breathing their own air but they still have superpowers? And he still has his powers when he's in space and not breathing anything at all so does the Earth's atmosphere give superpowers or not? I always thought it was the sun that gave him his power.

So you didn't watch the movie?

Sun and lower gravity gave them more strength.
Atmosphere and sun gave them heightened senses.

it's VERY damn clear.

If the atmosphere only affects their senses then why was he so weak after breathing the ship's atmo? And when Jor-El tweaks the ship's atmo back to Earth normal he regains his strength.


I assume that worked the same way you or I would react if we walked into an oppressively hot area. The air's thick with whatever - moisture, particulates, etc. - and being there would be such a shock to the system, especially if it was for any extended period of time.
 
2014-05-01 12:31:39 AM  

Clutch2013: MechaPyx: rocky_howard: MechaPyx: Also, when Superman is on their ship he loses his powers because he starts breathing the Kryptonian atmosphere and yet when the Kryptonians are running around in environmental suits they're breathing their own air but they still have superpowers? And he still has his powers when he's in space and not breathing anything at all so does the Earth's atmosphere give superpowers or not? I always thought it was the sun that gave him his power.

So you didn't watch the movie?

Sun and lower gravity gave them more strength.
Atmosphere and sun gave them heightened senses.

it's VERY damn clear.

If the atmosphere only affects their senses then why was he so weak after breathing the ship's atmo? And when Jor-El tweaks the ship's atmo back to Earth normal he regains his strength.

I assume that worked the same way you or I would react if we walked into an oppressively hot area. The air's thick with whatever - moisture, particulates, etc. - and being there would be such a shock to the system, especially if it was for any extended period of time.


You win a no-prize!

/you're dreaming if you think Snyder put a fraction of this much thought into it
 
2014-05-01 12:47:19 AM  
In the '78 version, the main bit of product placement was Ma Kent pointedly setting a box of Cheerios on the table for Clark's breakfast.  In Man of Steel, they have him swigging from a bottle of Budweiser.  I knew this version was going to be edgier but they might have gone too far.
 
2014-05-01 12:47:36 AM  

Clutch2013: MechaPyx: rocky_howard: MechaPyx: Also, when Superman is on their ship he loses his powers because he starts breathing the Kryptonian atmosphere and yet when the Kryptonians are running around in environmental suits they're breathing their own air but they still have superpowers? And he still has his powers when he's in space and not breathing anything at all so does the Earth's atmosphere give superpowers or not? I always thought it was the sun that gave him his power.

So you didn't watch the movie?

Sun and lower gravity gave them more strength.
Atmosphere and sun gave them heightened senses.

it's VERY damn clear.

If the atmosphere only affects their senses then why was he so weak after breathing the ship's atmo? And when Jor-El tweaks the ship's atmo back to Earth normal he regains his strength.

I assume that worked the same way you or I would react if we walked into an oppressively hot area. The air's thick with whatever - moisture, particulates, etc. - and being there would be such a shock to the system, especially if it was for any extended period of time.


Look folks, if you have to make shiat up to explain nonsense that lacked consistency within the continuity of a single movie, then the writers and director have done a poor job.
 
2014-05-01 12:48:30 AM  

Confabulat: nitefallz: Confabulat: Christopher Reeve's Superman also murdered Zod and his associates you know. I wonder why people forget that.

Also, Michael Keaton's Batman murdered Joker.

Remember that? Why so serious?

No, you're wrong.

But I'm not going to prove it for you.

Are you going to explain that when Reeve's Zod fell into the bottomless pit in the Fortress of Solitude that just magically sent him to the Phantom Zone or something?

Cause that's some bullshiat. Reeve's Superman straight up took their powers and killed all three in like a minute.


We've got people denying this in any and all recent Superman threads.. I don't get it.
 
2014-05-01 12:50:36 AM  

frestcrallen: In the '78 version, the main bit of product placement was Ma Kent pointedly setting a box of Cheerios on the table for Clark's breakfast.  In Man of Steel, they have him swigging from a bottle of Budweiser.  I knew this version was going to be edgier but they might have gone too far.


A part of me thought that too when I saw Routh drinking with Jimmy in Superman Returns, then I realized I was being ridiculous.
 
2014-05-01 01:06:55 AM  

frestcrallen: In the '78 version, the main bit of product placement was Ma Kent pointedly setting a box of Cheerios on the table for Clark's breakfast.  In Man of Steel, they have him swigging from a bottle of Budweiser.  I knew this version was going to be edgier but they might have gone too far.


That's how I felt when I saw him wearing a Jayhawks shirt.
 
2014-05-01 01:30:18 AM  

chewielouie: Confabulat: Christopher Reeve's Superman also murdered Zod and his associates you know. I wonder why people forget that.

Why do some people keep saying this? Even without knowing a scene were deleted, I never got the impression that Zod and company died when I saw the movie in theaters. I don't think anyone with at least half a brain got that impression.


I have a brain, and I never heard anyone claim they survived until a year or so ago.
 
2014-05-01 01:31:47 AM  
The Kryptonians in MoS are some of the dumbest military folks in movie history. There's at least a dozen of them on Zod's ship, yet they only throw two of them at Clark in Smallville. Clark leaves his mom behind at the farm when he tackles Zod into the center of a small town, but they never use her as a hostage. Faora absolutely refuses to use her super-speed against Colonel Hardy, even when it would have stopped him from sending her fellow Kryptonians back to the Phantom Zone. What happened to that fancy EMP weapon that the Kryptonians used to shut down technology all over the planet during the "You are not alone" bit? Why weren't the Kryptonian ships launched to protect Zod's ship the second the World Engine went boom? What happened to the giant Kryptonian guy after the battle of Smallville? For people bred from birth to be warriors, they seem to be completely incompetent when it comes to matters of war
 
2014-05-01 01:34:32 AM  

Fafai: Clutch2013: MechaPyx: rocky_howard: MechaPyx: Also, when Superman is on their ship he loses his powers because he starts breathing the Kryptonian atmosphere and yet when the Kryptonians are running around in environmental suits they're breathing their own air but they still have superpowers? And he still has his powers when he's in space and not breathing anything at all so does the Earth's atmosphere give superpowers or not? I always thought it was the sun that gave him his power.

So you didn't watch the movie?

Sun and lower gravity gave them more strength.
Atmosphere and sun gave them heightened senses.

it's VERY damn clear.

If the atmosphere only affects their senses then why was he so weak after breathing the ship's atmo? And when Jor-El tweaks the ship's atmo back to Earth normal he regains his strength.

I assume that worked the same way you or I would react if we walked into an oppressively hot area. The air's thick with whatever - moisture, particulates, etc. - and being there would be such a shock to the system, especially if it was for any extended period of time.

You win a no-prize!

/you're dreaming if you think Snyder put a fraction of this much thought into it


Dingleberry Dickwad: Clutch2013: MechaPyx: rocky_howard: MechaPyx: Also, when Superman is on their ship he loses his powers because he starts breathing the Kryptonian atmosphere and yet when the Kryptonians are running around in environmental suits they're breathing their own air but they still have superpowers? And he still has his powers when he's in space and not breathing anything at all so does the Earth's atmosphere give superpowers or not? I always thought it was the sun that gave him his power.

So you didn't watch the movie?

Sun and lower gravity gave them more strength.
Atmosphere and sun gave them heightened senses.

it's VERY damn clear.

If the atmosphere only affects their senses then why was he so weak after breathing the ship's atmo? And when Jor-El tweaks the ship's atmo back to Earth normal he regains his strength.

I assume that worked the same way you or I would react if we walked into an oppressively hot area. The air's thick with whatever - moisture, particulates, etc. - and being there would be such a shock to the system, especially if it was for any extended period of time.

Look folks, if you have to make shiat up to explain nonsense that lacked consistency within the continuity of a single movie, then the writers and director have done a poor job.


imageshack.com

For fark's sake.

I...you know what?  No.  I probably should argue this with you, but every time I come up with a response, it's immediately followed by this flashing in my head:

farm2.staticflickr.com

And that about sums it up.  I can't even muster up enough dickishness to be a proper asshole about it - that's how tired this argument has become.  Man of Steel arguments are like the gun threads of the Entertainment tab - 5-10% actual, proper debating, and the rest is just pure bullshiat.
 
2014-05-01 01:43:37 AM  

frestcrallen: In the '78 version, the main bit of product placement was Ma Kent pointedly setting a box of Cheerios on the table for Clark's breakfast.  In Man of Steel, they have him swigging from a bottle of Budweiser.  I knew this version was going to be edgier but they might have gone too far.


In Superman II, Supes threw Zod threw a gigantic Coke neon sign. And then Supes got thrown threw a big Malboro truck.

So, yeah ... It's Superman. They put product placement in all that shiat.
 
2014-05-01 01:45:37 AM  

HawgWild: frestcrallen: In the '78 version, the main bit of product placement was Ma Kent pointedly setting a box of Cheerios on the table for Clark's breakfast.  In Man of Steel, they have him swigging from a bottle of Budweiser.  I knew this version was going to be edgier but they might have gone too far.

In Superman II, Supes threw Zod threw a gigantic Coke neon sign. And then Supes got thrown through a big Malboro truck.

So, yeah ... It's Superman. They put product placement in all that shiat.


FTFM
 
2014-05-01 02:34:01 AM  

palladiate: Blues_X: So he watched a different movie?

Who knows. I've watched the movie three times and I'm still lost on what the movie was trying to say.

It SEEMED like a normal Superman story, where Supes was facing down a complex moral issue bounded on one side by massive devastation, uncountable death tolls, and genocide, and on the other by a tragic figure who was raised from birth and built with tailored DNA to achieve one thing, the continuation of his people by any means necessary.

Superman's struggle should have been "how do I resolve this without complete destruction of half the planet in a giant battle royale and likely killing the last Kryptonians because they're rather dead-set on their plans?" Except he didn't really struggle with this. That's the exact option he chose, because Snyder thinks that just looking heroic and good makes you heroic and good. Superman knows the difference.

Superman was always compelling when his skillset was worthless to the problems at hand. And frankly, how often is the ability to punch a bad guy in the fast faster than the speed of sound all that handy? He's famously bemoaned the fact that his natural physical potential is in fact a major limitation, the best depiction was the "World of Cardboard" speech from the Justice League cartoon.

I'm not a huge fan of Supes, but he's more than a dumb brute whose only gift is wrecking a world made of cardboard, filled with McGuffins that let him stomp around it like Godzilla. That's why the movie sucked and so many people can't recall the finer plot points that tied those McGuffins together.


All of that. And I am a huge fan of Supes.
 
2014-05-01 02:34:26 AM  

scottydoesntknow: Confabulat: I thought his plan was to murder every person on Earth. But maybe I was drunk.

Yea, not sure where Quesada is coming from. Zod flat out states (after being asked what would happen to earth if Superman surrendered): "A foundation has to be built on something. Even your father recognized that." and then they showed a vision with millions of human skeletons all over the ground and Superman does a big "NOOOOO".

A lot of problems with that movie, but Zod's intentions were to exterminate the human race and terraform earth to Krypton standards.


Joe must have went to get popcorn during that part. Zod never gave Clark the option of them leaving and letting Earth be. Humans were insects to him.
 
2014-05-01 02:37:48 AM  
You know what bugs me about Lois killing the Kryptonians while escaping from Zod's ship? She headshots a Kryptonian and kills him, but he's clearly wearing a breather mask. Zod's breather mask took plenty of punches from Superman without breaking and Faora's mask takes similar punishment, but the Kryptonian guard gets killed by one shot from Lois's sidearm...why?
 
2014-05-01 02:38:32 AM  
as for the sun and the atmosphere....I think they have to be able to absorb a certain amount of yellow sun radiation before the atmosphere doesn't give them a bad reaction.
 
2014-05-01 02:39:41 AM  

Clutch2013: Man of Steel arguments are like the gun threads of the Entertainment tab - 5-10% actual, proper debating, and the rest is just pure bullshiat.


Dingleberry and I brought up that it is a movie created by people who are not flawless beings. This is 'bullshiat' to people who think Superman had no other choice as though his free will was real and the plot of the movie was not pretermined. Fine. I'll argue to the point as though the movie were real.

Clutch2013: MechaPyx: If the atmosphere only affects their senses then why was he so weak after breathing the ship's atmo? And when Jor-El tweaks the ship's atmo back to Earth normal he regains his strength.

I assume that worked the same way you or I would react if we walked into an oppressively hot area. The air's thick with whatever - moisture, particulates, etc. - and being there would be such a shock to the system, especially if it was for any extended period of time.


You're saying the atmosphere didn't take away his strength, but it was thick enough to suppress it? This atmopshere is playing havok on his entire system, without affecting the super strength he got from soaking in the sun, despite it being the natural atmosphere he was born to breathe as a Kryptonian? I call BS.
 
2014-05-01 02:42:10 AM  

Sweet Chin Music: You know what bugs me about Lois killing the Kryptonians while escaping from Zod's ship? She headshots a Kryptonian and kills him, but he's clearly wearing a breather mask. Zod's breather mask took plenty of punches from Superman without breaking and Faora's mask takes similar punishment, but the Kryptonian guard gets killed by one shot from Lois's sidearm...why?


Because they give ensign Ricky the cheap mask. Gimme my no-prize.
 
2014-05-01 02:51:03 AM  
Well Man of Steel was the better non Batman DC movies to come out but nothing will ever top the first Superman for me. The Donner cut of Supes II is pretty great too.

Its got to just drive DC nuts that Marvel is doing so well even without its two largest comics moneymakers in Spiderman and The X-Men. That would be like Time/Warner not having Supes and Bats to make movies with.

But then I might be biased. DC lost me since the reboot. Well since the new head took over and let Dan Didio off the leash a year or so before the NuDC..
 
2014-05-01 04:02:48 AM  
In rare instances (in fiction), killing can be morally correct.

thescifichristian.com

In this story, Superman travels to an alternate universe where Zod, Non, and Ursa have killed everyone and are threatening to find a way to kill even more. He even used the gold kryptonite first to strip their superpowers, but they said they'd eventually reverse that somehow.
 
2014-05-01 06:15:46 AM  

hammer85: Fafai: chewielouie: Confabulat: Christopher Reeve's Superman also murdered Zod and his associates you know. I wonder why people forget that.

Why do some people keep saying this? Even without knowing a scene were deleted, I never got the impression that Zod and company died when I saw the movie in theaters. I don't think anyone with at least half a brain got that impression.

It's Man of Steel fans who keep saying this, so you're right about the half a brain thing. Without Man of Steel we wouldn't be talking about this. It's only brought up now as a cheap attempt at addressing the neck snap in a film 30 years later. "Well Reeves did it too so what's the problem?" No. No he didn't.

I've said it before but there's nothing about the tone of that scene that suggests he killed them. No body, no death. They disappear under some mist. It's ambiguous what happened, but they automatically jump to murder. Even with a deleted scene they still won't budge. They're trying to argue the merits of Man of Steel but since it has none beyond 'looks pretty' they have to resort to shiatting on an entirely different movie.

So...you're going to agree that no one died in the attack on Metropolis other than some soldiers?

After all...no bodies, no death.


Just like the Viet cong...
 
2014-05-01 07:49:06 AM  

jrodr018: shut_it_down: You know what I never understood?  Krypton was falling apart everybody knew it.  Yet, they sent the insurrectionists to a safe place instead of... I don't know... absolutely anybody else.  You really want to punish Zod?  Doom him to die on the planet along with everyone else.  Send some nice Kryptonians to netherspace or whatever it's called so that they can survive.

Seems like they were way too myopic for such a civilized race. Seriously, did they only have one scientist and the council did not even listen to their one scientist? And what kind of planet just falls apart so quick? either Jor-El dropped the ball and found out waaaaay too late. Which will mean he sucked as a scientist (he was a good fighter though).

And do not get me started on Pa Kent.


It's obviously a burn against those climate change and/or fracking deniers. An Inconvenient Kryptonian Truth.
 
2014-05-01 07:53:20 AM  
Also, I miss Joe Quesada: Comic Book Artist.

I always loved his art style and still have some posters of Xmen characters with art deco touches that I like.  Some great detail and line work, in my opinion.  If he was an artist on a book I'd always be sure to preorder it.

Then he became the big cheese somehow, and no more art.

Then he was going to draw a book again! Daredevil I think it was?  He was trying to out-Frank Miller Frank Miller and it was nothing like his decent work.  That was the last time I knew of that he tried to get back to being an artist.

That's my tale, bold readers.
 
2014-05-01 08:43:42 AM  

Confabulat: nitefallz: In the script and a deleted scene they were arrested.  They lost their powers but didn't fall into nothingness.

Well I don't watch early versions of scripts. Otherwise we'd be here talking about Anakin Starkiller today.


That's fair.  But if you're going to insist on a strict adherence to what happened on screen, then you don't know that they were killed any more than I know that they weren't.  We saw them fall a distance that wouldn't seriously injure anybody, and then... we don't know.  If you are insisting that they died, and that Superman just callously let them fall to their deaths, then that's entirely on  you.  Me, I tend to believe that the fog indicates some kind of cryogenic stasis field.  On my side I have the entire tone of the movie and the fact that Superman spent the whole movie (and the one before) showing that he values life.  What is it on your side that leads you to your conclusion?
 
2014-05-01 08:47:16 AM  

Gawain: What is it on your side that leads you to your conclusion?


The online debates about a different movie that was made 33 years later.
 
2014-05-01 09:07:24 AM  

Gawain: Confabulat: nitefallz: In the script and a deleted scene they were arrested.  They lost their powers but didn't fall into nothingness.

Well I don't watch early versions of scripts. Otherwise we'd be here talking about Anakin Starkiller today.

That's fair.  But if you're going to insist on a strict adherence to what happened on screen, then you don't know that they were killed any more than I know that they weren't.  We saw them fall a distance that wouldn't seriously injure anybody, and then... we don't know.  If you are insisting that they died, and that Superman just callously let them fall to their deaths, then that's entirely on  you.  Me, I tend to believe that the fog indicates some kind of cryogenic stasis field.  On my side I have the entire tone of the movie and the fact that Superman spent the whole movie (and the one before) showing that he values life.  What is it on your side that leads you to your conclusion?


We didn't see Zod buried.  It's possible Superman just Reeve'ed him.  I mean that's the arguments you are making to try and argue that Superman didn't intend to kill them/leave them to die.  Hell, I can argue Pa Kent is still alive.  After all, no body, no death.  They never found his body from the tornado, if you noticed he disappeared as soon as the tornado ran over him.  I believe that he was sent to Earth-2.

And the side that leads me to the conclusion is that you have 3 Krpyto-humans and Lex in a room that have been very naughty.  You break one of the Kyrpto-humans hands, then toss all of them into a pit o death.  Then take Lex to prison.  This kind and caring superman then immediately flies over and beats up a trucker for being mean to him earlier.

Which is why the Donner cut makes no sense.  So he threw Zod and Co into the pit to later be picked up by artic police...why wouldn't he have done that to Lex too?  And if he was just turning him over to police, why wouldn't he just take zod and co with lex to prison?
 
2014-05-01 09:15:05 AM  

Gawain: Superman spent the whole movie (and the one before) showing that he values life.


Except the trucker whom he let break his hand punching him, spun him to sickness, humiliated him by sticking his ass on a the counter in a plate of mashed potatoes and then threw him into a pinball machine (possibly causing back problems and at the very least lacerations from the broken glass, but this part is of course speculation)
 
2014-05-01 09:19:11 AM  

hammer85: Then take Lex to prison


I was going to ask what exactly did Lex do that was illegal but then I remember he busted out of prison earlier so nevermind.

I thought Superman just left Lex there. But like I said, there's apparently civilization less than a mile away from the North Pole or else powerless Clark and Lois would have frozen to death before they got to the diner. And apparently one of them knows how to hot wire a car.
 
2014-05-01 09:23:09 AM  

Gawain: Me, I tend to believe that the fog indicates some kind of cryogenic stasis field.


What in the movie lead you to believe that, rather than just the more obvious conclusion that he dumped them to their deaths? I can't imagine having to make up an alternate version of what I saw on screen.

No one thought it was particularly shocking for Superman to kill people in the 70s. We were a harder people then, I guess.
 
2014-05-01 09:54:57 AM  

hammer85: Which is why the Donner cut makes no sense. So he threw Zod and Co into the pit to later be picked up by artic police...why wouldn't he have done that to Lex too? And if he was just turning him over to police, why wouldn't he just take zod and co with lex to prison?


Clearly Supes and Lex have a secret thing for each other. In the first Spider-Man movie, he saves MJ at the fair, has a perfect chance to put her down safely and go after the goblin, but instead he takes his time and swings leisurely to a nice pretty rooftop because he wants to show off and spend some along time with her. Same thing.

And you're only proving my point by talking about Zod's dead body and Pa Kent in Man of Steel before anything else when answering a question about why you think Reeves killed anyone in Superman 2. Do you see what I mean? You guys can't talk about one movie without the other. You make it this weird contest. You come across as quite rabid. It's just movies. It's ok.

I don't think anyone is saying that Superman wasn't a jerk to the trucker, but he did throw the first punch. And that violence, like a lot of it in the film, was light-hearted and slapsticky. Cartoonish. Because it's essentially an adaptation of a cartoon. Dropping guys down a "pit of death" is not light-hearted and cartoonish. It doesn't fit with the rest of the film.

Mugato: But like I said, there's apparently civilization less than a mile away from the North Pole or else powerless Clark and Lois would have frozen to death before they got to the diner.


This is what I'm saying. Any kind of danger or violence or catastrophe is downplayed throughout the entire movie (even the deadly Arctic weather conditions), except for when the plot needs it to be serious when Zod and Ursa pick up the bus full of people. Even Zod, the main villain, didn't seem to want to hurt anybody, he just had this weird thing about everyone kneeling to him. He could have been a great ruler for all we know.

But in a movie where everything is kept light and fun except where absolutely necessary by the plot, and the worst the bad guys do is kill an astronaut or two just to show the audience they're badass before going on their pathetic rampage of blowing up empty cars, making a guy levitate before dropping him ten feet onto the ground, and then insisting everyone kneel, we're supposed to believe the hero murdered them in cold blood and then smiled and chuckled with his girlfriend about it without any hint of mania or sadism as this heroic music plays in the background. Seems legit.
 
2014-05-01 10:05:11 AM  

Fafai: Even Zod, the main villain, didn't seem to want to hurt anybody, he just had this weird thing about everyone kneeling to him. He could have been a great ruler for all we know.


I've always said that. Once he took over, he didn't really fark with anyone. They all just sat around the White House, bored. And unlike Superman, Zod wouldn't put up with any terrorism shiat or countries invading each other or nuclear war.

/hail Zod
 
2014-05-01 10:29:11 AM  
If they had just one scene of Superman removing the wreckage, helping to rescue the injured or recovering the dead from the collapsed buildings - anything like this at the end of the movie, it would have substantially curtailed the sting of watching all the carnage beforehand.  Instead the very next scene we have after Lois' comforts him after killing Zod is Superman destroying a twenty million dollar surveillance satellite.  Joy.
 
2014-05-01 10:45:12 AM  
I really enjoyed Man of Steel. It's definitely not perfect, but most of the arguments people have against it can be solved with a little bit of "Pay farking attention next time" and a fair amount of "I want to enjoy my time at the theater so I'll give it the benefit of the doubt." The only argument that holds weight is "I just didn't like it," because most everything else can be debated, and you can't really argue opinion. All the Internet bantering in the world won't make someone who likes it hate it, or make someone who hates it like it.

But it's fun to be a dick and make fun of stuff. It's not a perfect movie, maybe not even a great movie. But it's the closest thing I've seen to the Superman movie I wanted to see, and I'm excited about the next one.
 
2014-05-01 10:56:07 AM  

ExcedrinHeadache: I really enjoyed Man of Steel. It's definitely not perfect, but most of the arguments people have against it can be solved with a little bit of "Pay farking attention next time" and a fair amount of "I want to enjoy my time at the theater so I'll give it the benefit of the doubt." The only argument that holds weight is "I just didn't like it," because most everything else can be debated, and you can't really argue opinion. All the Internet bantering in the world won't make someone who likes it hate it, or make someone who hates it like it.

But it's fun to be a dick and make fun of stuff. It's not a perfect movie, maybe not even a great movie. But it's the closest thing I've seen to the Superman movie I wanted to see, and I'm excited about the next one.


It's one thing to suspend your disbelief to enjoy a movie.  it's another when you still do it but the movie then decides to say "FARK YOUR DISBELIEF!" (i.e. Pa Kent's death)

That was Man of Steel's problem.  I'm all for what you stated, but when the movie decides to take said viewer's disbelief and spit it back in your face, then the movie loses it's credibility.
 
2014-05-01 10:57:41 AM  

Rwa2play: ExcedrinHeadache: I really enjoyed Man of Steel. It's definitely not perfect, but most of the arguments people have against it can be solved with a little bit of "Pay farking attention next time" and a fair amount of "I want to enjoy my time at the theater so I'll give it the benefit of the doubt." The only argument that holds weight is "I just didn't like it," because most everything else can be debated, and you can't really argue opinion. All the Internet bantering in the world won't make someone who likes it hate it, or make someone who hates it like it.

But it's fun to be a dick and make fun of stuff. It's not a perfect movie, maybe not even a great movie. But it's the closest thing I've seen to the Superman movie I wanted to see, and I'm excited about the next one.

It's one thing to suspend your disbelief to enjoy a movie.  it's another when you still do it but the movie then decides to say "FARK YOUR DISBELIEF!" (i.e. Pa Kent's death)

That was Man of Steel's problem.  I'm all for what you stated, but when the movie decides to take said viewer's disbelief and spit it back in your face, then the movie loses it's credibility.


FTFM.
 
2014-05-01 11:39:59 AM  

Rwa2play: It's one thing to suspend your disbelief to enjoy a movie. it's another when you still do it but the movie then decides to say "FARK YOUR DISBELIEF!" (i.e. Pa Kent's death)

That was Man of Steel's problem. I'm all for what you stated, but when the movie decides to take said viewer's disbelief and spit it back in your face, then the movie loses it's credibility.


But Pa Kent's action were 100% in line with his character in the film. He didn't want Clark to be found out, so he told him not to help. Clark obeyed, and then spent years dealing with the consequence of that. He even farking says that in the film.

"I let my father die because I trusted him. Because he was convinced that I had to wait. That the world was not ready. What do you think?  "
 
2014-05-01 12:00:24 PM  

Hebalo: Rwa2play: It's one thing to suspend your disbelief to enjoy a movie. it's another when you still do it but the movie then decides to say "FARK YOUR DISBELIEF!" (i.e. Pa Kent's death)

That was Man of Steel's problem. I'm all for what you stated, but when the movie decides to take said viewer's disbelief and spit it back in your face, then the movie loses it's credibility.

But Pa Kent's action were 100% in line with his character in the film. He didn't want Clark to be found out, so he told him not to help. Clark obeyed, and then spent years dealing with the consequence of that. He even farking says that in the film.

"I let my father die because I trusted him. Because he was convinced that I had to wait. That the world was not ready. What do you think?  "


This. Whether it was a great moment or not, it was consistent with his character. Pa Kent would rather die than risk Clark being found out... which he would have, with all those people watching when it happened. To save his dad, Clark would have had to show off his super-speed and his invulnerability to tornado-force winds... all of which still might not have saved his dad, since he couldn't fly at that point and would have been picked up and tossed about by the tornado, anyway.

Pa Kent knew that if he was found out, Clark's life would never be the same. The government might be after him, religious people might camp out outside the house, but no matter what, he wouldn't be able to live a life pretending to be normal. Pete's mom proved that after the bus incident. Pa Kent's whole move was, "You can't do these things, because people will find out, and they can't handle it." Clark even says, "You mean I should let people die?" and Kent goes, "Maybe?" His death answers that question, at least in Kent's eyes.

I agree it's a tenuous scene at best, but it's not inconsistent, unless you're allowing previous versions of Pa Kent and the Superman story to color your comprehension of this film. But this is another point at which paying attention will answer the Whys of it, even if you might not like the result.
 
2014-05-01 12:08:14 PM  

Hebalo: Rwa2play: It's one thing to suspend your disbelief to enjoy a movie. it's another when you still do it but the movie then decides to say "FARK YOUR DISBELIEF!" (i.e. Pa Kent's death)

That was Man of Steel's problem. I'm all for what you stated, but when the movie decides to take said viewer's disbelief and spit it back in your face, then the movie loses it's credibility.

But Pa Kent's action were 100% in line with his character in the film. He didn't want Clark to be found out, so he told him not to help. Clark obeyed, and then spent years dealing with the consequence of that. He even farking says that in the film.

"I let my father die because I trusted him. Because he was convinced that I had to wait. That the world was not ready. What do you think?  "


Except no rational human being would let it happen; that's where my bone of contention lies.  It would've made more sense to have Clark off-screen saving someone while the tornado makes an abrupt shift towards Pa and he had no time to react.

And it would've been a great callback to "S:TM" where Clark couldn't save Pa after he suffered a heart attack.
 
2014-05-01 12:12:33 PM  

ExcedrinHeadache: Hebalo: Rwa2play: It's one thing to suspend your disbelief to enjoy a movie. it's another when you still do it but the movie then decides to say "FARK YOUR DISBELIEF!" (i.e. Pa Kent's death)

That was Man of Steel's problem. I'm all for what you stated, but when the movie decides to take said viewer's disbelief and spit it back in your face, then the movie loses it's credibility.

But Pa Kent's action were 100% in line with his character in the film. He didn't want Clark to be found out, so he told him not to help. Clark obeyed, and then spent years dealing with the consequence of that. He even farking says that in the film.

"I let my father die because I trusted him. Because he was convinced that I had to wait. That the world was not ready. What do you think?  "

This. Whether it was a great moment or not, it was consistent with his character. Pa Kent would rather die than risk Clark being found out... which he would have, with all those people watching when it happened. To save his dad, Clark would have had to show off his super-speed and his invulnerability to tornado-force winds... all of which still might not have saved his dad, since he couldn't fly at that point and would have been picked up and tossed about by the tornado, anyway.

Pa Kent knew that if he was found out, Clark's life would never be the same. The government might be after him, religious people might camp out outside the house, but no matter what, he wouldn't be able to live a life pretending to be normal. Pete's mom proved that after the bus incident. Pa Kent's whole move was, "You can't do these things, because people will find out, and they can't handle it." Clark even says, "You mean I should let people die?" and Kent goes, "Maybe?" His death answers that question, at least in Kent's eyes.

I agree it's a tenuous scene at best, but it's not inconsistent, unless you're allowing previous versions of Pa Kent and the Superman story to color your comprehension of this film. But this is another ...


Problem is it doesn't make sense.  Say you were given a gift like that and saw a loved one in peril but said loved one said "Don't do it because people will look at you different," would you just stand there and do nothing?

IMHO it makes Clark look less human instead of more human.
 
2014-05-01 12:16:19 PM  

Rwa2play: Problem is it doesn't make sense.  Say you were given a gift like that and saw a loved one in peril but said loved one said "Don't do it because people will look at you different," would you just stand there and do nothing?

IMHO it makes Clark look less human instead of more human.


Forgot to add:  It also damages Clark's psyche and IMHO makes Pa Kent sound cold to me.  Why would you condemn your child to the trauma of seeing you die and you telling him he should do nothing about it?

That's some real stupid shiat there.
 
2014-05-01 12:24:47 PM  

Alphax: chewielouie: Confabulat: Christopher Reeve's Superman also murdered Zod and his associates you know. I wonder why people forget that.

Why do some people keep saying this? Even without knowing a scene were deleted, I never got the impression that Zod and company died when I saw the movie in theaters. I don't think anyone with at least half a brain got that impression.

I have a brain, and I never heard anyone claim they survived until a year or so ago.


So, you thought Lois was a murderer as well? Nice "brain" you got there.
 
2014-05-01 12:33:10 PM  

chewielouie: Alphax: chewielouie: Confabulat: Christopher Reeve's Superman also murdered Zod and his associates you know. I wonder why people forget that.

Why do some people keep saying this? Even without knowing a scene were deleted, I never got the impression that Zod and company died when I saw the movie in theaters. I don't think anyone with at least half a brain got that impression.

I have a brain, and I never heard anyone claim they survived until a year or so ago.

So, you thought Lois was a murderer as well? Nice "brain" you got there.


(eyeroll)
 
2014-05-01 12:41:10 PM  

The_Sponge: Screw the hate....I liked the movie.


Agreed.
 
2014-05-01 12:46:03 PM  

Rwa2play: And it would've been a great callback to "S:TM" where Clark couldn't save Pa after he suffered a heart attack.


Jonathan Kent dying of a heart attack is critical to the development of Superman for a very specific reason. A reason that stupidly dying in a tornado can't hope to replicate. The tornado thing is stupid enough on the face of it, and it totally misses the point.

Clark's father dying of a heart attack is crucial because it's so ordinary. It wasn't a meteor from space or a mugger in a dark alley - Clark could stop those. Johnathan Kent dies because he's weak and frail. Johnathan Kent dies because he's human.

And with all the gifts Clark has, he can do nothing to prevent it.

This creates a pivotal moment in the development of Clark Kent becoming Superman. It welds him to humanity like nothing else could possibly do. It creates in him a drive to protect humanity from its own frailty.

A stupid tornado doesn't do that.
 
2014-05-01 12:48:57 PM  

PIP_the_TROLL: Rwa2play: And it would've been a great callback to "S:TM" where Clark couldn't save Pa after he suffered a heart attack.

Jonathan Kent dying of a heart attack is critical to the development of Superman for a very specific reason. A reason that stupidly dying in a tornado can't hope to replicate. The tornado thing is stupid enough on the face of it, and it totally misses the point.

Clark's father dying of a heart attack is crucial because it's so ordinary. It wasn't a meteor from space or a mugger in a dark alley - Clark could stop those. Johnathan Kent dies because he's weak and frail. Johnathan Kent dies because he's human.

And with all the gifts Clark has, he can do nothing to prevent it.

This creates a pivotal moment in the development of Clark Kent becoming Superman. It welds him to humanity like nothing else could possibly do. It creates in him a drive to protect humanity from its own frailty.

A stupid tornado doesn't do that.


Well, damn. We all knew it felt wrong and argued for months but this is the best breakdown so far.

You sir, are god damn right.
 
2014-05-01 12:52:56 PM  

PIP_the_TROLL: Rwa2play: And it would've been a great callback to "S:TM" where Clark couldn't save Pa after he suffered a heart attack.

Jonathan Kent dying of a heart attack is critical to the development of Superman for a very specific reason. A reason that stupidly dying in a tornado can't hope to replicate. The tornado thing is stupid enough on the face of it, and it totally misses the point.

Clark's father dying of a heart attack is crucial because it's so ordinary. It wasn't a meteor from space or a mugger in a dark alley - Clark could stop those. Johnathan Kent dies because he's weak and frail. Johnathan Kent dies because he's human.

And with all the gifts Clark has, he can do nothing to prevent it.

This creates a pivotal moment in the development of Clark Kent becoming Superman. It welds him to humanity like nothing else could possibly do. It creates in him a drive to protect humanity from its own frailty.

A stupid tornado doesn't do that.


BINGO~!  Also, if people start spouting off about some guy flying through the air at incredible speed to save his dad, what do you think the EMTs/cops respond to that?

"Sir/Ma'am, you're experiencing shock because of a traumatic event that you just experienced."
 
2014-05-01 01:13:17 PM  

PIP_the_TROLL: Rwa2play: And it would've been a great callback to "S:TM" where Clark couldn't save Pa after he suffered a heart attack.

Jonathan Kent dying of a heart attack is critical to the development of Superman for a very specific reason. A reason that stupidly dying in a tornado can't hope to replicate. The tornado thing is stupid enough on the face of it, and it totally misses the point.

Clark's father dying of a heart attack is crucial because it's so ordinary. It wasn't a meteor from space or a mugger in a dark alley - Clark could stop those. Johnathan Kent dies because he's weak and frail. Johnathan Kent dies because he's human.

And with all the gifts Clark has, he can do nothing to prevent it.

This creates a pivotal moment in the development of Clark Kent becoming Superman. It welds him to humanity like nothing else could possibly do. It creates in him a drive to protect humanity from its own frailty.

A stupid tornado doesn't do that.


Now, see this? This. Makes. Sense. I love this answer. None of this "Zack Snyder can EABOD" shiat that's posing as token criticism. I can look at this and go, "Hmm. I've never thought of it that way. But now that I have, that actually lines up very well."

Thank you for that. I'm dead serious.

Next question: Superman vs. Zod - what's your take (in case I've missed it)? I feel that all of these "move the battle elsewhere" comments wouldn't pan out, especially given how viciously insane Zod was at that point.
 
2014-05-01 01:23:56 PM  

PIP_the_TROLL: Rwa2play: And it would've been a great callback to "S:TM" where Clark couldn't save Pa after he suffered a heart attack.

Jonathan Kent dying of a heart attack is critical to the development of Superman for a very specific reason. A reason that stupidly dying in a tornado can't hope to replicate. The tornado thing is stupid enough on the face of it, and it totally misses the point.

Clark's father dying of a heart attack is crucial because it's so ordinary. It wasn't a meteor from space or a mugger in a dark alley - Clark could stop those. Johnathan Kent dies because he's weak and frail. Johnathan Kent dies because he's human.

And with all the gifts Clark has, he can do nothing to prevent it.

This creates a pivotal moment in the development of Clark Kent becoming Superman. It welds him to humanity like nothing else could possibly do. It creates in him a drive to protect humanity from its own frailty.

A stupid tornado doesn't do that.


"All those things I could do. All those powers. And there was nothing I could do to save him."

It's a powerful moment in that film.

What bothers me most about Jonathan Kent's death in MoS is that it plays more like a suicide.
 
2014-05-01 01:28:26 PM  

Clutch2013: PIP_the_TROLL: Rwa2play: And it would've been a great callback to "S:TM" where Clark couldn't save Pa after he suffered a heart attack.

Jonathan Kent dying of a heart attack is critical to the development of Superman for a very specific reason. A reason that stupidly dying in a tornado can't hope to replicate. The tornado thing is stupid enough on the face of it, and it totally misses the point.

Clark's father dying of a heart attack is crucial because it's so ordinary. It wasn't a meteor from space or a mugger in a dark alley - Clark could stop those. Johnathan Kent dies because he's weak and frail. Johnathan Kent dies because he's human.

And with all the gifts Clark has, he can do nothing to prevent it.

This creates a pivotal moment in the development of Clark Kent becoming Superman. It welds him to humanity like nothing else could possibly do. It creates in him a drive to protect humanity from its own frailty.

A stupid tornado doesn't do that.

Now, see this? This. Makes. Sense. I love this answer. None of this "Zack Snyder can EABOD" shiat that's posing as token criticism. I can look at this and go, "Hmm. I've never thought of it that way. But now that I have, that actually lines up very well."

Thank you for that. I'm dead serious.

Next question: Superman vs. Zod - what's your take (in case I've missed it)? I feel that all of these "move the battle elsewhere" comments wouldn't pan out, especially given how viciously insane Zod was at that point.


I'm totally going to give Pip credit if someone starts up trying to rationalize Pa Kent's death.  He nailed it.
 
2014-05-01 01:30:19 PM  

peterthx: PIP_the_TROLL: Rwa2play: And it would've been a great callback to "S:TM" where Clark couldn't save Pa after he suffered a heart attack.

Jonathan Kent dying of a heart attack is critical to the development of Superman for a very specific reason. A reason that stupidly dying in a tornado can't hope to replicate. The tornado thing is stupid enough on the face of it, and it totally misses the point.

Clark's father dying of a heart attack is crucial because it's so ordinary. It wasn't a meteor from space or a mugger in a dark alley - Clark could stop those. Johnathan Kent dies because he's weak and frail. Johnathan Kent dies because he's human.

And with all the gifts Clark has, he can do nothing to prevent it.

This creates a pivotal moment in the development of Clark Kent becoming Superman. It welds him to humanity like nothing else could possibly do. It creates in him a drive to protect humanity from its own frailty.

A stupid tornado doesn't do that.

"All those things I could do. All those powers. And there was nothing I could do to save him."

It's a powerful moment in that film.

What bothers me most about Jonathan Kent's death in MoS is that it plays more like a suicide.


And farking up Clark's mind at the same time~!  Think about it: you're watching your parent die right in front of you and s/he just told you to do nothing about it~!

That's not going to screw up his upbringing?! Really?!
 
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