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(The New York Times)   In a move that nobody expected, the NYT calls to forgive $1.2 trillion in student loans   (nytimes.com) divider line 224
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8249 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Apr 2014 at 9:03 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-29 12:49:32 PM  

keypusher: College students who borrow from private lenders often assume that private and federal student loans work the same way. The two could not be more different.

Sorry to be the "let 'em crash" guy, but is it too much to ask someone borrowing tens of thousands of dollars to read the application?


No, you see, if you don't read the contract and just assume that the deal has terms you prefer, then your uninformed assumptions should be honored as a binding agreement.
 
2014-04-29 12:53:33 PM  

Thunderpipes: Because Math, science, etc. will lead to, in general, people getting jobs and paying back into the system. I don't think the public should be funding people's hobbies.

Can shove culture up your butt, that doesn't pay the bills. That is just the stupid card that liberals pull because they want to think they are above others because they look at some nude paintings. Yes, I took philosophy and art, and it was interesting. But ultimately, who gives a crap?


So because YOU were unable to derive the benefit of a more rounded education you assume that everybody else has the same deficit in ability?
 
2014-04-29 01:01:01 PM  

CokeBear: keypusher: drewsclues: all loans 0% interest and repayment of which is in no way tied to credit score. repayment is automatic if you work, it's just garnished from your check, in reasonable amounts for up to 20 years. After that, it's wiped off the books. You can choose to pay it back in full at any time with no penalties.

Why would anyone make that loan?

Government would make that loan in order to ensure an educated workforce. Get the private sector out of it, they've clearly FUBAR'd it


The government doesn't even make loans like that now, even if you have a house to secure it with.  I mean, come on.  We run annual deficits in the hundreds of billions of dollars, we've got a lot of genuinely poor people for whom college is not even a prospect, but we're supposed to divert much more money to relatively well-off young people?  Besides, flooding the universities with essentially free money (free for the universities, that is) would just drive tuition up.  No thanks.
 
2014-04-29 01:04:08 PM  

Thunderpipes: Because Math, science, etc. will lead to, in general, people getting jobs and paying back into the system. I don't think the public should be funding people's hobbies.

Can shove culture up your butt, that doesn't pay the bills. That is just the stupid card that liberals pull because they want to think they are above others because they look at some nude paintings. Yes, I took philosophy and art, and it was interesting. But ultimately, who gives a crap?


Why should engineers and scientists study art and design?

www.blogcdn.com

www.selectism.com

upload.wikimedia.org


I guess to you these are no better than

upload.wikimedia.org

vaporizer-info.com
upload.wikimedia.org


I have hired a LOT of engineers over the years. I wouldn't even consider one that dissed his fine arts classes. Why? See above.
 
2014-04-29 01:05:04 PM  

Khellendros: It's simple - education shouldn't be set on economies of profit.  If you consider an education a "luxury", you're the problem.  It's not job training, it's not a revenue stream, it's the fundamental way a society advances itself.



THIS


Make people better and the rest will follow. Invest in people!
 
kgf
2014-04-29 01:09:15 PM  

Lucky LaRue: DubtodaIll: Lucky LaRue: Hahahaha!  Yeah.. let's forgive the student loans for all those dumb-f*cks who spent $40k / year going to Columbia's School of Journalism so they could take a $30k/year job writing stories about how taxpayers should pay for their bad decision making.

I thought that was the job of the government to make up for people's bad decisions, at least that's all I ever hear out of Democrats.

To be fair, it was under Republican leadership that taxpayers bailed out the banks.


Democrats take your money and give it to the poor.
Republicans take your money and give it to the rich.
Your choice.
 
2014-04-29 01:09:29 PM  

Thallone1: No. people go to college for idiotic crap all the time. Just because you can get a degree in a field of knowledge does not mean that someone will pay you for that knowledge. If you get a degree in anime art appreciation (no an actual art degree where you can draw), it is unlikely that you'll find anyone to pay you to look at cartoon porn.


Do you morons really have to invent idiotic majors just to prove your point that college bad and graduates deserve debt slavery?
It sounds like a jab at Art History, but why not just farking say that? You don't have to invent underwater basketweaving or lesbian poetry to make the point that there are some educations you don't value.
 
2014-04-29 01:09:46 PM  

Thunderpipes: Khellendros: Thunderpipes: You have tor remember, our "poor" live better than almost everyone in the world. How is our education system unequal? All get the same public school options, poor people get free cash to go to school.

If you believe that, you're clinically insane.

Show me where I am wrong? Must have data. Poor doing bad at school does not mean there is inequality in anything but poor people not trying.



I live in a small affluent town in CT. My kids get unlimited access to computers, equipment, iPads, books, and other supplies at. The class sizes are small and all of the teachers are top notch.

Is it your position that it is the same way in the poorest and most crowded cities in my state? Do you suppose if I walked in to an inner city school I would see comparable class sizes?

Let's see if you are intellectually honest enough to answer.

Maybe the nay sayers are right and you are just a troll after all.
 
2014-04-29 01:15:54 PM  
Steps to success;
1 Crown a King; declare national emergency, all normal rules subject to change
2 declare Jubilee [all debts, public and private cancelled, no exceptions]
3 end all current tax schemes
4 endow each citizen with a year's supply of savings.
5 freeze prices and match all wages to a new scale [no more than a 50% spread]
6 all citizens 7 yrs and older must work, even if it is hoeing from a wheel chair, or picking up trash.
7 End the stock market, loans, bonds, mortgages, etc; all money comes from work alone.
8 all citizens have the right to a half acre, real estate may be traded, not sold.
9 those who grow food, may have up to 20 acres, obligated to farm it.
10 End hollywood and the rest of the entertainment industry, mega sports [incl magazines, tv and broadcast music] A bible in every home.
11 Reproduction by marriage only, requires a 4 year course to qualify.

All that would cost less than the annual interest on current debt, and we would also be debt free. Money printing would become unnecessary. Gold, silver and precious stones could back currency.
The world would beg to join us.

This is part of what i would do when i am King
See why monarchy is superior to democracy?

Currently we are ruled by the votes of women, children, imbeciles, and those too old to survive on their own.
Small wonder the result is what we have today, only one hand out of the grave.

Now, y'all forgive those debts,
Lest someone comes in and does it for you;
and a whole lot more!
 
2014-04-29 02:04:51 PM  

ArkAngel: What we need is more emphasis on tech schools, higher standards for admission to colleges, and possibly tracked high schools to encourage .


What we need is for employers not to insist on a four year degree for a job shuffling papers and getting coffee.

I really don't know why all the blame is being heaped on the students, the graduates and the schools when all of them are simply reacting to the "invisible hand" of the market. Potential students realize that if they do not have those degrees they will not get the jobs they want, and universities realize that their expenses (passed to students) rise with the addition of more students with the same facilities and number of instructors.

Cutting people out of a college degree by "raising standards" (making it more difficult to get in) does not help when it is the part of the market they cannot control - employers - that influence demand for their degrees. "Tracked high schools" and more tech schools won't help either, if those tracks aren't what employers are asking for. There need to be jobs at the end of those tracks.
 
2014-04-29 02:06:15 PM  

SpectroBoy: I have hired a LOT of engineers over the years. I wouldn't even consider one that dissed his fine arts classes. Why? See above.


Is that still a thing?  Are we still doing that?
 
2014-04-29 02:12:30 PM  

kgf: Lucky LaRue: DubtodaIll: Lucky LaRue: Hahahaha!  Yeah.. let's forgive the student loans for all those dumb-f*cks who spent $40k / year going to Columbia's School of Journalism so they could take a $30k/year job writing stories about how taxpayers should pay for their bad decision making.

I thought that was the job of the government to make up for people's bad decisions, at least that's all I ever hear out of Democrats.

To be fair, it was under Republican leadership that taxpayers bailed out the banks.

Democrats take your money and give it to the poor.
Republicans take your money and give it to the rich.
Your choice.


FTFY
 
2014-04-29 02:27:03 PM  

rewind2846: What we need is for employers not to insist on a four year degree for a job shuffling papers and getting coffee.


Employers have too much power, period.
They've managed to offload most of their training costs onto the graduate and the taxpayer. If there isn't a college program churning out the EXACT cog to fit their machine, it's "no qualified applicants" and off to find an H1B they can lord over and pay less, even when the regular wage wouldn't even be enough to pay for the degree they're asking for.
 
2014-04-29 02:32:15 PM  

nekom: rumpelstiltskin: I read that as a call for higher interest rates, in exchange for slightly less limited consumer protections.

That's exactly what I'm in favor of.  Make them dischargable in bankruptcy like they used to be.  The price of education has been artificially inflated by cheap money, and that is NOT a good thing.

/never had any student loans, thank god
//have seen them hound people forever


Private student loans should be dis-chargeable in bankruptcy. Fed ones shouldn't but have a very hard max limit of say 30k max.

In-State University shouldn't cost 20k a year.

Will it ever happen, I doubt it, because the money is being funneled to boomer admins making tons of money.
 
2014-04-29 02:43:28 PM  

Thunderpipes: yet, people here do better in school, less crime. How could this be? Get this, property taxes are 30% of what they are in VT!


Speaking as someone who grew up in an area like the one you describe, I can tell you that those kids do better in school because they learn about 30% of what the city slickers' kids do.  It's called "low expectations."

I graduated at the top of my HS class in Podunk, Kansas, then went to college as an engineering major.  I still remember my first week in Calc 101.  I thought I'd wandered into a Greek class by mistake.
 
2014-04-29 02:54:25 PM  

hinten: Some of these "students" are actually surprised that when a major piece of collateral (your mother) seizes to exist that the loan might come due immediately?

I suspect these "students" are not learning.


To be fair, they sign before learning.
To be fairer, this is a lesson that is being learned.
The gift of education keeps giving.
 
2014-04-29 02:54:34 PM  

Thunderpipes: I just moved from a wealthy VT little town to a pretty poor rural town in VA. Teachers here make drastically less money. But you know what? Students here do better. There is less crime, more achievement, and the average family income here is $15,000 below VT town.

How could this be? According to liberals, the only factor in school performance is how much money you spend.


What is the town in VT?  What is the town in VA?

There may be a poor rural Virginia town with smarter kids and better schools than in a small wealthy town in Vermont.  There may be an Easter Bunny too.  But it's not a good bet.
 
2014-04-29 03:31:13 PM  

BgJonson79: NickelP: Lucky LaRue: Sergeant Grumbles: Oh, it's this thread again.

"If you didn't go into the exact area of STEM I'm thinking of right now, and didn't predict what the market would be doing four years out, you deserve to be mired in debt for the rest of your life."

Each of us has a degree of personal responsibility that we need to own up to.  If you go to school for a psychology degree because you think that is your path to making a good living and (four years and $100k)  later find out you made a bad call, then you need to take responsibility for that and not expect society to give you a free do-over.

Not really. Bankruptcy doesn't work like that for anything else. That's one of the great things about this country. You can try things because if you fail hard enough there is a backstop that let's you reset and try again. Some of the most influential people tried and failed badly, but could go bankrupt and try again. Everyone benefits from that. It is bizarre that in this small instance of education we declare that your bad decision is permanent.

When you go bankrupt with other things, there are assets the creditor can get back.  What can they get back for a failed education?


Not credit cards.   Since there is no colateral, they charge a higher interest to account for the inevitable uncollectable debt.  That's why they charge a higher interest.   Certain private loans charge a higher interest AND are non-dischargeable.  Which gave certain banks an unfair advantage.

Problem is that Sallie Mae wasn't smart about it and got very sloppy with their lending standards for a few years.   Now they're stuck with bad debt that they'll probably never collect, but don't wnat to write off either. I suspect that's why they split off their student loan division into a separate company.
 
2014-04-29 03:56:52 PM  

SevenizGud: Yeah, because there is nothing we need more than yet another giant act to reinforce the notion that irresponsible behavior never eventually results in negative consequences.

Lost your job because you are loser, here, have 99999 weeks of unemployment.

Did something astonishingly stupid and hurt yourself, here have payments for your idiocy.

Murderer, here have cable tv and a basketball court.

Personal responsibility for the extinction!!


If you're a private lender and you disregard lending standards issue a bad loan to a unqualified borrower, don't worry, Congress will protect you from bankrupcty filings!

In the current system, all the responsibility is placed on the borrower and removed from the private lender.   That's not a balanced or effective system.   But by all means, lets keep this unnecessary drag on our economy in place just so 18 year-old borrowers can have a bitter life esson a few years down the road.
 
2014-04-29 04:08:54 PM  

Hollie Maea: hinten: Some of these "students" are actually surprised that when a major piece of collateral (your mother) seizes to exist that the loan might come due immediately?

I suspect these "students" are not learning.

Right, because it is very likely that a person whose parent dies will be unable to continue paying monthly installments but able to pay the whole amount at once.


I've been wondering about the thought process that went into this contract clause.  I can only guess that they assume that the co-signer's estate would be used to settle the debt in one lump sum.   Otherwise, I can't understand how it benefits the company to default a loan that's in good standing.
 
2014-04-29 04:18:38 PM  

brobdiggy: .

Mass forgiveness of student loans is a TERRIBLE idea.  The supply of loanable funds would disappear.

Lending for student loans (both public lending and private lending) would come to a complete halt.  Why would lenders want to lend when they know that the loan can just be forgiven and eliminated?  That adds HUGE risk for the lender and incentives students to borrow and never repay.

The reason that student loans are often NOT forgiven in bankruptcy is that the lender can't repossess any collateral.  If you go bankrupt, lenders can foreclose your home, repo your car, but they can't recoup losses from education loans.  They can't take away your college knowledge.


GOOD.

The current system is completely farked and it has to be re-set with major controls if it's going to work moving forward. So many people my age have forgoed buying a house, marriage, and kids because they are shackled to student loans.

College costs have skyrocketed because of all that money being pumped into the system, you have college presidents making obscene amounts of money and levels of bureaucracy.

Federal loans should be capped to 30k max for undergrad and private loans should be dischargeable.

The money flow would dry up considerably, forcing colleges to re-think their strategies and finally put an end to increasing tuition.
 
2014-04-29 04:42:40 PM  

shortymac: GOOD.

The current system is completely farked and it has to be re-set with major controls if it's going to work moving forward. So many people my age have forgoed buying a house, marriage, and kids because they are shackled to student loans.

College costs have skyrocketed because of all that money being pumped into the system, you have college presidents making obscene amounts of money and levels of bureaucracy.

Federal loans should be capped to 30k max for undergrad and private loans should be dischargeable.

The money flow would dry up considerably, forcing colleges to re-think their strategies and finally put an end to increasing tuition.



Indeed.  The current situation is a gravy train, and everyone from the bankers to the universities are taking a free ride.  Ultimately the students are the ones getting stuck with the bill ... which, as the least-powerful players involved, should surprise no one.
 
2014-04-29 04:55:17 PM  

Thunderpipes: Khellendros: Thunderpipes: Art, philosophy, history can all be studied in a person's spare time, at no cost. By their very nature, those topics should be studied alone.

"By their very nature".... so glad we have you, the center of culture and education in the world today, to determine the "nature" of subjects that should be studied on your own in spare time.  How about if we do the same thing with science, math, engineering, business, and law?  You can get those from a book, too.  No reason to go to school for them.

Humanities and the arts are fundamental to society and civilization.  Funding them at their base level - schooling - is essential.  And this is coming from a guy with a physics degree that that works in the aerospace industry.  Just because you can't derive massive revenue streams from them on the first order doesn't mean they're not useful, nor should people attain higher degrees in them.

Because Math, science, etc. will lead to, in general, people getting jobs and paying back into the system. I don't think the public should be funding people's hobbies.

Can shove culture up your butt, that doesn't pay the bills. That is just the stupid card that liberals pull because they want to think they are above others because they look at some nude paintings. Yes, I took philosophy and art, and it was interesting. But ultimately, who gives a crap?


History majors aren't just memorizing dates and facts.   They are taught how to do research, to think critically, to write, to develop a theory and present a valid argument.   And history majors do well in the job market because they have basic skills that work in a lot of industries.   Four of our current supreme court justices were history majors. Seven presidents studied history.  Lee Iaccoca, CEO of Chrysler, studied history.
 
2014-04-29 05:59:06 PM  

SpectroBoy: Thunderpipes: Because Math, science, etc. will lead to, in general, people getting jobs and paying back into the system. I don't think the public should be funding people's hobbies.

Can shove culture up your butt, that doesn't pay the bills. That is just the stupid card that liberals pull because they want to think they are above others because they look at some nude paintings. Yes, I took philosophy and art, and it was interesting. But ultimately, who gives a crap?

I have hired a LOT of engineers over the years. I wouldn't even consider one that dissed his fine arts classes. Why? See above.


(pictures of really good examples)

I guess to you these are no better than

(pictures of examples that suck)

THIS^^^

So many dipwads take good design for granted because there enough good engineers who actually paid attention in their art and design classes. We have artists and designers (like myself) whose job is to design with total disregard for engineering, but the best designers are also the ones who paid attention in their math and science classes.

Point is that no matter what your job or who you are, there's always something you can learn that can be used later. Only an ignorant moron would believe otherwise.

Thundermouth reminds me of Danny DeVito's character in "Matilda". Take a peek at that kid's movie to see how they think.

Zinnia Wormwood: Look, Miss Snit, a girl does not get anywhere by acting intelligent! I mean, take a look at you and me. You chose books - I chose looks. I have a nice house, a wonderful husband... and you are slaving away teaching snot-nosed children their ABCs. You want Matilda to go to college? Ha, ha, ha, ha...
Harry Wormwood: College?
[scoffs]
Harry Wormwood: I didn't go to college. I don't know anybody who did. Bunch of hippies and cesspool salesmen, ha ha ha ha...
Jenny: [insulted] Don't sneer at educated people, Mr. Wormwood. If you became ill, heaven forbid, your doctor would be a college graduate.
Harry Wormwood: Yeah...
Jenny: Or - or say you were sued for selling a faulty car. The lawyer who defended you would have gone to college, too.
Harry Wormwood: What car? Sued by who? Who you been talking to?
Jenny: N-nobody.
[sighs]
Jenny: I can see we're not going to agree, are we?


Harry Wormwood: A book? What do you want a book for?
Matilda: To read.
Harry Wormwood: To read? Why would you want to read when you got the television set sitting right in front of you? There's nothing you can get from a book that you can't get from a television faster.
 
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