If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(The New York Times)   In a move that nobody expected, the NYT calls to forgive $1.2 trillion in student loans   (nytimes.com) divider line 224
    More: Scary  
•       •       •

8182 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Apr 2014 at 9:03 AM (17 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



224 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | » | Last | Show all
 
2014-04-29 10:43:26 AM

Khellendros: BgJonson79: If you're smart enough to get into college, shouldn't you be smart enough to get a job that'll let you pay back your loans without issue?

Again, what's your definition of merit?  Because this statement has no relation to creating a meritocracy.


Intelligence, ability and talent?
 
2014-04-29 10:49:40 AM

BgJonson79: Khellendros: BgJonson79: If you're smart enough to get into college, shouldn't you be smart enough to get a job that'll let you pay back your loans without issue?

Again, what's your definition of merit?  Because this statement has no relation to creating a meritocracy.

Intelligence, ability and talent?


Now, go back to the statement you responded to with your meritocracy question.  An intelligent person studying art, history, philosophy, etc, may not be able to get a great job.  But should the cost of that education be so high that pursuit of humanities can ONLY be pursued by idle rich kids, because they can support it?  There's no merit in that.  And it leave the humanities to only those with money, not those with creative ability, talent, or intelligence.

So, in a real meritocracy, even the poor should be able to pursue the humanities if they have the talent and ability to do so, and not be crushed by debt and misery because of it.  Using students as profit centers is a model for intellectual disaster.
 
2014-04-29 10:59:35 AM

Khellendros: BgJonson79: Khellendros: BgJonson79: If you're smart enough to get into college, shouldn't you be smart enough to get a job that'll let you pay back your loans without issue?

Again, what's your definition of merit?  Because this statement has no relation to creating a meritocracy.

Intelligence, ability and talent?

Now, go back to the statement you responded to with your meritocracy question.  An intelligent person studying art, history, philosophy, etc, may not be able to get a great job.  But should the cost of that education be so high that pursuit of humanities can ONLY be pursued by idle rich kids, because they can support it?  There's no merit in that.  And it leave the humanities to only those with money, not those with creative ability, talent, or intelligence.

So, in a real meritocracy, even the poor should be able to pursue the humanities if they have the talent and ability to do so, and not be crushed by debt and misery because of it.  Using students as profit centers is a model for intellectual disaster.


Art, philosophy, history can all be studied in a person's spare time, at no cost. By their very nature, those topics should be studied alone.

I like drinking beer and riding dirt bikes. Should there be a college major devoted to those things, and me getting free cash to do it? Sadly, I have to not drink nearly enough beer and dirt bikes are sidelined right now, because of work and family. Not fair!
 
2014-04-29 11:00:43 AM
Why not discharge some/all debt to people that participate in something like americorps,peace corp or even the military, but then again most people in the military can use the GI Bill. Still think Mike Rowe should be stuff trade schools in our faces more and more. Wish I went to one.
 
2014-04-29 11:04:50 AM

groppet: Why not discharge some/all debt to people that participate in something like americorps,peace corp or even the military, but then again most people in the military can use the GI Bill. Still think Mike Rowe should be stuff trade schools in our faces more and more. Wish I went to one.


Because why? Why should the damn Peace Corp of all things be given cash? How about those that get a job, and pay positive federal taxes get a break for once? I had to pay my way, partial loans, partial out of pocket. because I was working and making too much money, I get no relief, cannot even deduct tuition expenses. But you want some Moonbeam hippie studying basketweaving to go teach basketball in Africa to get free money?

I think we should do the opposite. Those that get a job, become productive get a benefit, those that don't have to suffer. Maybe it will discourage stupid majors and career choices.
 
2014-04-29 11:07:31 AM
.

Mass forgiveness of student loans is a TERRIBLE idea.  The supply of loanable funds would disappear.


Lending for student loans (both public lending and private lending) would come to a complete halt.  Why would lenders want to lend when they know that the loan can just be forgiven and eliminated?  That adds HUGE risk for the lender and incentives students to borrow and never repay.

The reason that student loans are often NOT forgiven in bankruptcy is that the lender can't repossess any collateral.  If you go bankrupt, lenders can foreclose your home, repo your car, but they can't recoup losses from education loans.  They can't take away your college knowledge.
 
2014-04-29 11:08:20 AM
Education is an investment.  It irks me that I have to pay 8% to finance a graduate degree, all so I can get a better job which will put me in a higher tax bracket.  So I pay interest to the government in order to pay more in taxes to the government.

But how about this, next time the bakers screw up and we need to hand them a trillion bucks, let's horse trade for student loan forgiveness.  They're gonna get the money anyways, let's get at least something for the common man out of it.
 
2014-04-29 11:10:13 AM

Champion of the Sun


But how about this, next time the bakers screw up and we need to hand them a trillion bucks


That's a lot of bread.
 
2014-04-29 11:11:00 AM
Yeah lets teach kids that being irresponsible is a good thing.  Sure I am going to go out and get an education I cannot pay for.  Why not just get a house I cannot afford, while I am at it why not get a car I cannot afford.  Make the American people pay for luxuries I want but cannot afford.  HERE IS A HINT.  YOU are ruining America if you are getting things you cannot afford.
 
2014-04-29 11:14:04 AM

Thunderpipes: Art, philosophy, history can all be studied in a person's spare time, at no cost. By their very nature, those topics should be studied alone.


"By their very nature".... so glad we have you, the center of culture and education in the world today, to determine the "nature" of subjects that should be studied on your own in spare time.  How about if we do the same thing with science, math, engineering, business, and law?  You can get those from a book, too.  No reason to go to school for them.

Humanities and the arts are fundamental to society and civilization.  Funding them at their base level - schooling - is essential.  And this is coming from a guy with a physics degree that that works in the aerospace industry.  Just because you can't derive massive revenue streams from them on the first order doesn't mean they're not useful, nor should people attain higher degrees in them.
 
2014-04-29 11:15:27 AM
How about we just start off by making 100% of student loan interest tax deductible with no income caps?
 
2014-04-29 11:16:59 AM

Khellendros: Thunderpipes: Art, philosophy, history can all be studied in a person's spare time, at no cost. By their very nature, those topics should be studied alone.

"By their very nature".... so glad we have you, the center of culture and education in the world today, to determine the "nature" of subjects that should be studied on your own in spare time.  How about if we do the same thing with science, math, engineering, business, and law?  You can get those from a book, too.  No reason to go to school for them.

Humanities and the arts are fundamental to society and civilization.  Funding them at their base level - schooling - is essential.  And this is coming from a guy with a physics degree that that works in the aerospace industry.  Just because you can't derive massive revenue streams from them on the first order doesn't mean they're not useful, nor should people attain higher degrees in them.


Because Math, science, etc. will lead to, in general, people getting jobs and paying back into the system. I don't think the public should be funding people's hobbies.

Can shove culture up your butt, that doesn't pay the bills. That is just the stupid card that liberals pull because they want to think they are above others because they look at some nude paintings. Yes, I took philosophy and art, and it was interesting. But ultimately, who gives a crap?
 
2014-04-29 11:18:01 AM

Spudsy1: Yeah lets teach kids that being irresponsible is a good thing.  Sure I am going to go out and get an education I cannot pay for.  Why not just get a house I cannot afford, while I am at it why not get a car I cannot afford.  Make the American people pay for luxuries I want but cannot afford.  HERE IS A HINT.  YOU are ruining America if you are getting things you cannot afford.


It's simple - education shouldn't be set on economies of profit.  If you consider an education a "luxury", you're the problem.  It's not job training, it's not a revenue stream, it's the fundamental way a society advances itself.  And leaving that to capitalistic drivers is asking for disaster.

Nearly every other first world country has figured this out.  Why must we have such a large population that insists on education being the same as stock options?
 
2014-04-29 11:19:19 AM

Thunderpipes: Because Math, science, etc. will lead to, in general, people getting jobs and paying back into the system. I don't think the public should be funding people's hobbies.

Can shove culture up your butt, that doesn't pay the bills. That is just the stupid card that liberals pull because they want to think they are above others because they look at some nude paintings. Yes, I took philosophy and art, and it was interesting. But ultimately, who gives a crap?


It's nice to be able to identify those that are erosive to civilization.  You don't even need to wear a badge.
 
2014-04-29 11:20:05 AM

Thunderpipes: Yes, I took philosophy and art, and it was interesting. But ultimately, who gives a crap?


American and Chinese engineers study the same math courses.  American engineering students also need to take philosophy and art classes.  One group is innovative and resourceful, the other group just steals the ideas of the first.  I wonder if their education makes a difference?
 
2014-04-29 11:20:30 AM
Largely, college costs have gone up not because it's more expensive to educate students, but because State's have significantly reduced their funding for higher education and Federal loans have replaced Federal grants.

As long as we see higher education as a market commodity and not a public good, I don't know that any meaningful change will come to the system.

/only two years of loans left :D
 
2014-04-29 11:21:18 AM

Khellendros: Nearly every other first world country has figured this out. Why must we have such a large population that insists on education being the same as stock options?


America has way too many poor people to be considered a first-world nation.

Oh, and our education system is too unequal as well.

Well, that's a bit of an eyebrow-raising correlation.
 
2014-04-29 11:21:45 AM

lack of warmth: Pick: I wonder why student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy, but home mortgages are not.

The house can be sold to recoup some of the debt, where how do you return the knowledge placed in your head?  My bro is losing his house as part of bankruptcy, are the college grads willing to give back the degrees?


I would. They've been pretty useless, and I haven't been able to find a job with them. I've been trying for three years now and I'm tired/discouraged/frustrated. Take them back. I need the money for other things.
 
2014-04-29 11:22:11 AM

mr lawson


smugness and a hot cocoa box sampler


*facepalm*

That's "hot cocoa sampler box". It's nice that you want to use an oldish reference but it would be better if you got it right.
 
2014-04-29 11:22:32 AM

Champion of the Sun: Thunderpipes: Yes, I took philosophy and art, and it was interesting. But ultimately, who gives a crap?

American and Chinese engineers study the same math courses.  American engineering students also need to take philosophy and art classes.  One group is innovative and resourceful, the other group just steals the ideas of the first.  I wonder if their education makes a difference?


Curious to see who you think is the innovative group.
 
2014-04-29 11:27:10 AM

Hollie Maea: hinten: Some of these "students" are actually surprised that when a major piece of collateral (your mother) seizes to exist that the loan might come due immediately?

I suspect these "students" are not learning.

Right, because it is very likely that a person whose parent dies will be unable to continue paying monthly installments but able to pay the whole amount at once.


Do Commies not read contracts before they sign?
 
2014-04-29 11:27:30 AM
In a move that nobody expected, the NYT calls to forgive $1.2 trillion in student loans

Why should we expect what from who?  I have no idea what this is supposed to mean or what sort of expectation I should have of the NYT.  And further more, I don't hang around the kind of people who have the NYT all figured out enough to make such a statement.  I would guess enough of the "over-burden myself with debt" generation journalism majors have made their way into NYT employment.  And a few days ago they got bored/stoned.
 
2014-04-29 11:28:48 AM

dragonchild: Khellendros: Nearly every other first world country has figured this out. Why must we have such a large population that insists on education being the same as stock options?

America has way too many poor people to be considered a first-world nation.

Oh, and our education system is too unequal as well.

Well, that's a bit of an eyebrow-raising correlation.


You have tor remember, our "poor" live better than almost everyone in the world. How is our education system unequal? All get the same public school options, poor people get free cash to go to school.
 
2014-04-29 11:30:35 AM

Thunderpipes: You have tor remember, our "poor" live better than almost everyone in the world. How is our education system unequal? All get the same public school options, poor people get free cash to go to school.


If you believe that, you're clinically insane.
 
2014-04-29 11:31:22 AM

Englebert Slaptyback: That's "hot cocoa sampler box". It's nice that you want to use an oldish reference but it would be better if you got it right.


oh shut up! I only had one cup of coffee and very little sleep last nite riding out tornado warnings all nite
 
2014-04-29 11:32:02 AM

Spudsy1: Yeah lets teach kids that being irresponsible is a good thing.  Sure I am going to go out and get an education I cannot pay for.  Why not just get a house I cannot afford, while I am at it why not get a car I cannot afford.  Make the American people pay for luxuries I want but cannot afford.  HERE IS A HINT.  YOU are ruining America if you are getting things you cannot afford.


Settle down, Gramps.  You'll give yourself another stroke.
 
2014-04-29 11:32:42 AM

brobdiggy: That adds HUGE risk for the lender and incentives students to borrow and never repay.


That's kindda the point skippy.
 
2014-04-29 11:34:05 AM

mr lawson


Englebert Slaptyback: That's "hot cocoa sampler box". It's nice that you want to use an oldish reference but it would be better if you got it right.

oh shut up! I only had one cup of coffee and very little sleep last nite riding out tornado warnings all nite


I hope you and your trailer are okay.
 
2014-04-29 11:36:20 AM

Englebert Slaptyback: I hope you and your trailer are okay.


were fine...still trying to get all the coon dogs out from under the front porch.
 
2014-04-29 11:39:34 AM
all loans 0% interest and repayment of which is in no way tied to credit score. repayment is automatic if you work, it's just garnished from your check, in reasonable amounts for up to 20 years. After that, it's wiped off the books. You can choose to pay it back in full at any time with no penalties.
 
2014-04-29 11:40:57 AM

Khellendros: Thunderpipes: You have tor remember, our "poor" live better than almost everyone in the world. How is our education system unequal? All get the same public school options, poor people get free cash to go to school.

If you believe that, you're clinically insane.


Show me where I am wrong? Must have data. Poor doing bad at school does not mean there is inequality in anything but poor people not trying.
 
2014-04-29 11:41:46 AM

drewsclues: all loans 0% interest and repayment of which is in no way tied to credit score. repayment is automatic if you work, it's just garnished from your check, in reasonable amounts for up to 20 years. After that, it's wiped off the books. You can choose to pay it back in full at any time with no penalties.


And any amount written off is paid tax-free from the government to a rich white man.  It's the only way we'll get something like that passed.
 
2014-04-29 11:42:25 AM

Thunderpipes: Poor doing bad at school does not mean there is inequality in anything but poor people not trying.


Noted - troll.
 
2014-04-29 11:46:19 AM

Khellendros: Thunderpipes: Poor doing bad at school does not mean there is inequality in anything but poor people not trying.

Noted - troll.


Noted, I am correct. Only the weak minded can not argue a point, like you just did.

The difference in this country, is we have a massive population of fat lazy, "poor" people who get everything handed to them. The school systems are fine. The "poor" culture is not something government can change by throwing money at it, quite the opposite. Make the lazy bastards suffer real poverty, then, and only then will they get off their asses.

We spend more per pupil than almost every nation on earth, but are slipping year by year. So don't lie and say money is the problem. Democratic voters are.
 
2014-04-29 11:46:41 AM

Thunderpipes: Khellendros: Thunderpipes: You have tor remember, our "poor" live better than almost everyone in the world. How is our education system unequal? All get the same public school options, poor people get free cash to go to school.

If you believe that, you're clinically insane.

Show me where I am wrong? Must have data. Poor doing bad at school does not mean there is inequality in anything but poor people not trying.


It depends where you live.  That's true in some states (free tuition for top students) but it's the exception rather than the norm.
 
2014-04-29 11:48:05 AM

BgJonson79: Khellendros: BgJonson79: Lucky LaRue: mr lawson: first step is to get rid of federally backed student loans

I wonder what would happen if we did get rid of federal backing.  I am guessing that we'd have a situation similar to what I was ad-libbing about earlier - the banks would let accountants and actuarials decide which degrees are a good bet, which would be good, I suppose.  But, then all the liberal arts degrees (like English, History, Art, Music, Philosophy, etc.al) would be the realm of the wealthy who could afford university on their own, and I don't think I would want to live in a society so clearly delineated by the haves and the have-nots.

So, no meritocracies then?

What's your definition of merit?  Because if you're equating a family having money with their merit, you need your head examined.

If you're smart enough to get into college, shouldn't you be smart enough to get a job that'll let you pay back your loans without issue?


No. people go to college for idiotic crap all the time. Just because you can get a degree in a field of knowledge does not mean that someone will pay you for that knowledge. If you get a degree in anime art appreciation (no an actual art degree where you can draw), it is unlikely that you'll find anyone to pay you to look at cartoon porn.
 
2014-04-29 11:49:50 AM

jshine: Thunderpipes: I am a liberal now. I actually firmly believe that a college education should be cheap, and heavily subsidized by the government.

However, I also think that the standards to get into college, and what you go for need to be drastically changed. Political indoctrination needs to be gotten rid of. Stupid majors need to be ditched. College should be for real students, who have real ambition, to train for real jobs.

Trade schools exist already, and they probably don't have liberal arts requirements (no pesky history classes, for instance). They're very practical.


This.
 
2014-04-29 11:51:15 AM

jshine: Thunderpipes: Khellendros: Thunderpipes: You have tor remember, our "poor" live better than almost everyone in the world. How is our education system unequal? All get the same public school options, poor people get free cash to go to school.

If you believe that, you're clinically insane.

Show me where I am wrong? Must have data. Poor doing bad at school does not mean there is inequality in anything but poor people not trying.

It depends where you live.  That's true in some states (free tuition for top students) but it's the exception rather than the norm.


Federal grants are available for all.

Until we address the real problem, lazy, freeloading people having kids as fast as they can and raising them the same way, nothing will ever fix it. Artificially trying to change outcomes will just waste more money.
 
2014-04-29 11:51:44 AM

Thunderpipes: Noted, I am correct. Only the weak minded can not argue a point, like you just did.


You made a blind assertion that poor people, as a demographic group, don't try.  With no data to back it up, I might add.  You then tried to make it a political issue.

Much like the bearded guy on the corner that throws feces at traffic or the chicken playing chess, you're not having a useful or productive conversation, and should be ignored.  Enjoy.
 
2014-04-29 11:55:53 AM
I just moved from a wealthy VT little town to a pretty poor rural town in VA. Teachers here make drastically less money. But you know what? Students here do better. There is less crime, more achievement, and the average family income here is $15,000 below VT town.

How could this be? According to liberals, the only factor in school performance is how much money you spend.
 
2014-04-29 11:59:34 AM

Thunderpipes: According to liberals, the only factor in school performance is how much money you spend.


(Citation needed)
 
2014-04-29 12:01:32 PM

mr lawson


were fine...still trying to get all the coon dogs out from under the front porch.


Well, lookit Mr. Fancy Pants here with his fancy porch!

I just have an old BMW.

:-)
 
2014-04-29 12:02:24 PM
Correction, $19,000 less family income. 59k in Georgia, VT compared to 40k where I am now.

We don't have heroin needles littering the roadside.
People here are religious (I am not), drive ATVs, drive crappy pick-ups, talk with a southern accent. Basically, liberal hell. yet, people here do better in school, less crime. How could this be? Get this, property taxes are 30% of what they are in VT!
 
2014-04-29 12:14:57 PM

hasty ambush: Heraclitus: C'mon, the 1% worked hard to enslave the next generation.

They're not going to let them off the hook that easy!

Yup because the 1% forced them to assume $35k in debt for a degree in puppetry, $105K for a degree in speech and interpersonal communication or $200,000 in debt for a degree in sociology


I believe that would be the exception not the rule.

Are you saying that Americans should not hold a competitive edge in the sciences?

Why do you hate America?
 
2014-04-29 12:15:03 PM

Thunderpipes: I just moved from a wealthy VT little town to a pretty poor rural town in VA. Teachers here make drastically less money. But you know what? Students here do better. There is less crime, more achievement, and the average family income here is $15,000 below VT town.

How could this be? According to liberals, the only factor in school performance is how much money you spend.


Money is far from the only determinant, though all other things being equal, money helps.  (Also, income is relative.  I'm working in Minnesota now and making less than I did in California last year, but my standard of living is actually quite a bit higher since the cost-of-living is lower.)

It'd be worthwhile studying what causes the difference in educational outcome.  Well, first, start with determining whether that difference is real or not.  It's easy to give out more A's in school, but do the students actually fare better on their ACT/SATs and graduate from universities at the same rates?  If the answer is still "yes, VA is better", then it's worth determining why.  Are the teachers better motivated in spite of being paid less?  Are parents more involved?  Do families value education more?  Etc., etc.
 
2014-04-29 12:16:16 PM

Thunderpipes: whizbangthedirtfarmer: Let those who go into business or law pay their loans.  Those who are ground-level contributors to society should, after four or five years verifiably working in a high-need social area, should get a large portion of their loan forgiven.  It makes sense.  But the government HAS to follow through.

Virginia has a program that allowed elementary school teachers in impoverished counties to, after five years, get a payoff of 5 to 7,000 dollars on their student loan.  I worked in the area for three years, at which point the state abandoned the program entirely.

Thanks, guys.

This is beyond stupid. Why should a social worker or school teacher, who doesn't even need college to be honest, get a freebie, while a business owner have to pay the bills? That program you point out, gives taxpayer money, to people who will ultimately get a taxpayer pension, why are they more deserving? Education majors statistically do much worse in college as well.


It's not beyond stupid, it's completely logical.  Business majors (that you say teachers and social workers don't need college is alarming enough), make enough money, generally speaking, to be able to pay back their loans and then some.  However, the "high need" positions that many states NEED workers in, which include education, social work, and so on, can be lured a bit with the promise of some portion of the money off of their tuition.

It's the same concept that drives colleges differential tuition.  Not hard to comprehend.  So long as the state and federal governments continue to completely deemphasize education funding, then this is what you'll get.

\that many other successful countries offer very low-cost to free college is very telling
 
2014-04-29 12:37:53 PM
College students who borrow from private lenders often assume that private and federal student loans work the same way. The two could not be more different.

Sorry to be the "let 'em crash" guy, but is it too much to ask someone borrowing tens of thousands of dollars to read the application?
 
2014-04-29 12:44:00 PM

drewsclues: all loans 0% interest and repayment of which is in no way tied to credit score. repayment is automatic if you work, it's just garnished from your check, in reasonable amounts for up to 20 years. After that, it's wiped off the books. You can choose to pay it back in full at any time with no penalties.


Why would anyone make that loan?
 
2014-04-29 12:46:36 PM

keypusher: drewsclues: all loans 0% interest and repayment of which is in no way tied to credit score. repayment is automatic if you work, it's just garnished from your check, in reasonable amounts for up to 20 years. After that, it's wiped off the books. You can choose to pay it back in full at any time with no penalties.

Why would anyone make that loan?


Government would make that loan in order to ensure an educated workforce. Get the private sector out of it, they've clearly FUBAR'd it
 
2014-04-29 12:49:21 PM

Thunderpipes: Art, philosophy, history can all be studied in a person's spare time, at no cost. By their very nature, those topics should be studied alone.


Well, I can see my days of not taking you opinion on higher education seriously have come to a middle.
 
Displayed 50 of 224 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report