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(The New York Times)   In a move that nobody expected, the NYT calls to forgive $1.2 trillion in student loans   (nytimes.com) divider line 224
    More: Scary  
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8216 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Apr 2014 at 9:03 AM (43 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-29 10:04:20 AM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: Let those who go into business or law pay their loans.  Those who are ground-level contributors to society should, after four or five years verifiably working in a high-need social area, should get a large portion of their loan forgiven.  It makes sense.  But the government HAS to follow through.

Virginia has a program that allowed elementary school teachers in impoverished counties to, after five years, get a payoff of 5 to 7,000 dollars on their student loan.  I worked in the area for three years, at which point the state abandoned the program entirely.

Thanks, guys.


That exists and it's called the Public Service Loan Forgiveness plan, but it's only for federal loans.
 
2014-04-29 10:04:31 AM  

BgJonson79: If you pick a degree that a lot of people have, and up having skills that a lot of people have, doesn't that mean you'll get a job that a lot of people have, and therefore be on the wrong side of the supply/demand ratio when it comes to negotiating salary?

 
2014-04-29 10:05:28 AM  
So what do the 20-somethings who actually paid off their student loans ($40k here) get?
 
2014-04-29 10:06:06 AM  

BgJonson79: NickelP: Lucky LaRue: Sergeant Grumbles: Oh, it's this thread again.

"If you didn't go into the exact area of STEM I'm thinking of right now, and didn't predict what the market would be doing four years out, you deserve to be mired in debt for the rest of your life."

Each of us has a degree of personal responsibility that we need to own up to.  If you go to school for a psychology degree because you think that is your path to making a good living and (four years and $100k)  later find out you made a bad call, then you need to take responsibility for that and not expect society to give you a free do-over.

Not really. Bankruptcy doesn't work like that for anything else. That's one of the great things about this country. You can try things because if you fail hard enough there is a backstop that let's you reset and try again. Some of the most influential people tried and failed badly, but could go bankrupt and try again. Everyone benefits from that. It is bizarre that in this small instance of education we declare that your bad decision is permanent.

When you go bankrupt with other things, there are assets the creditor can get back.  What can they get back for a failed education?


Not all debt is secured. The student loan people and divy up whatever you have like the credit card people.
 
2014-04-29 10:06:42 AM  

mr lawson: first step is to get rid of federally backed student loans


I wonder what would happen if we did get rid of federal backing.  I am guessing that we'd have a situation similar to what I was ad-libbing about earlier - the banks would let accountants and actuarials decide which degrees are a good bet, which would be good, I suppose.  But, then all the liberal arts degrees (like English, History, Art, Music, Philosophy, etc.al) would be the realm of the wealthy who could afford university on their own, and I don't think I would want to live in a society so clearly delineated by the haves and the have-nots.
 
2014-04-29 10:06:53 AM  

Imperialism: So what do the 20-somethings who actually paid off their student loans ($40k here) get?


smugness and a hot cocoa box sampler
 
2014-04-29 10:08:04 AM  

Imperialism: So what do the 20-somethings who actually paid off their student loans ($40k here) get?


Well, you don't get to go through a bankruptcy. Just like the people who's businesses DIDN'T fail, and those people who DIDN'T lose their house.

You also get an economy where people aren't struggling to cover the loan first, and not spending money on anything else, like whatever good or service you provide.
 
2014-04-29 10:08:12 AM  

Lucky LaRue: But, then all the liberal arts degrees (like English, History, Art, Music, Philosophy, etc.al) would be the realm of the wealthy who could afford university on their own, and I don't think I would want to live in a society so clearly delineated by the haves and the have-nots.


self correcting...those jobs don't pay well, hence the haves will soon become the have nots.
 
2014-04-29 10:08:59 AM  

Lucky LaRue: mr lawson: first step is to get rid of federally backed student loans

I wonder what would happen if we did get rid of federal backing.  I am guessing that we'd have a situation similar to what I was ad-libbing about earlier - the banks would let accountants and actuarials decide which degrees are a good bet, which would be good, I suppose.  But, then all the liberal arts degrees (like English, History, Art, Music, Philosophy, etc.al) would be the realm of the wealthy who could afford university on their own, and I don't think I would want to live in a society so clearly delineated by the haves and the have-nots.


If some of the federal subsidy was shifted to ability based scholarships it would help that. Let those that have demonstrated a gift for music or stage study the arts for example for free. If you barely slugged through hs then sorry you need to pay
 
2014-04-29 10:10:29 AM  
And how many people here really need those 4 years of college? I don't. I got my degree well after I made my way up the chain. It really is just a piece of paper. Most jobs, this is the case. You could learn more with 6 months of a real internship than 4 years of college.

I really wish we could get back to this system a little more. A teacher for instance, has to get more and more advanced degrees for pay raises? Why?

Do we need female studies, and stupid crap like that? Does an economics major need history, sociology, art? College is a racket, for the most part. But, you need that silly piece of paper.
 
2014-04-29 10:10:43 AM  

NickelP: Lucky LaRue: mr lawson: first step is to get rid of federally backed student loans

I wonder what would happen if we did get rid of federal backing.  I am guessing that we'd have a situation similar to what I was ad-libbing about earlier - the banks would let accountants and actuarials decide which degrees are a good bet, which would be good, I suppose.  But, then all the liberal arts degrees (like English, History, Art, Music, Philosophy, etc.al) would be the realm of the wealthy who could afford university on their own, and I don't think I would want to live in a society so clearly delineated by the haves and the have-nots.

If some of the federal subsidy was shifted to ability based scholarships it would help that. Let those that have demonstrated a gift for music or stage study the arts for example for free. If you barely slugged through hs then sorry you need to pay


If you barely slugged through HS history, why are you in higher education?
 
2014-04-29 10:12:22 AM  

BgJonson79: NickelP: Lucky LaRue: mr lawson: first step is to get rid of federally backed student loans

I wonder what would happen if we did get rid of federal backing.  I am guessing that we'd have a situation similar to what I was ad-libbing about earlier - the banks would let accountants and actuarials decide which degrees are a good bet, which would be good, I suppose.  But, then all the liberal arts degrees (like English, History, Art, Music, Philosophy, etc.al) would be the realm of the wealthy who could afford university on their own, and I don't think I would want to live in a society so clearly delineated by the haves and the have-nots.

If some of the federal subsidy was shifted to ability based scholarships it would help that. Let those that have demonstrated a gift for music or stage study the arts for example for free. If you barely slugged through hs then sorry you need to pay

If you barely slugged through HS history, why are you in higher education?


They probably shouldn't be but here we are.
 
2014-04-29 10:12:29 AM  

Thunderpipes: Does an economics major need history, sociology, art?


not the art part, but the other two would help a lot!
/B.S. Econ
 
2014-04-29 10:13:18 AM  
As an engineer, I'm not that wild about the idea of driving over a bridge that was designed by an engineer that otherwise would have been a journalism major but decided to go into engineering for the money.
 
2014-04-29 10:13:26 AM  

mr lawson: Imperialism: So what do the 20-somethings who actually paid off their student loans ($40k here) get?

smugness and a hot cocoa box sampler


You drive a hard bargain, sir, but I'll take it.
 
2014-04-29 10:13:37 AM  
BgJonson79:
When you go bankrupt with other things, there are assets the creditor can get back.  What can they get back for a failed education?

Sometimes there are.  But if you're a no asset case, you literally walk away from any and all debt.  Except student loans, taxes and I think certain kinds of lawsuits (i.e. a fatal DUI).  It doesn't matter if you owe $60,000 or $250,000.  Poof.  It's gone.
 
2014-04-29 10:15:20 AM  

Hollie Maea: As an engineer, I'm not that wild about the idea of driving over a bridge that was designed by an engineer that otherwise would have been a journalism major but decided to go into engineering for the money.


they still would have to pass the courses.
 
2014-04-29 10:15:55 AM  

NickelP: Lucky LaRue: mr lawson: first step is to get rid of federally backed student loans

I wonder what would happen if we did get rid of federal backing.  I am guessing that we'd have a situation similar to what I was ad-libbing about earlier - the banks would let accountants and actuarials decide which degrees are a good bet, which would be good, I suppose.  But, then all the liberal arts degrees (like English, History, Art, Music, Philosophy, etc.al) would be the realm of the wealthy who could afford university on their own, and I don't think I would want to live in a society so clearly delineated by the haves and the have-nots.

If some of the federal subsidy was shifted to ability based scholarships it would help that. Let those that have demonstrated a gift for music or stage study the arts for example for free. If you barely slugged through hs then sorry you need to pay


Yeah - I agree that we need a lot more merit-based scholarship programs.  I'd go so far as to argue for a tiered-based primary and secondary education system.  If (for example) after grade 5 you demonstrate an ability to go to university, then you go to a secondary education system that prepares you for that.  If, on the other hand, your aptitude is more in line with auto repair, then you go through a secondary educational system that prepares you for that.

The drawback to this, of course, is that I would have been sent to ditch-digging school.
 
2014-04-29 10:17:38 AM  

Thunderpipes: And how many people here really need those 4 years of college? I don't. I got my degree well after I made my way up the chain. It really is just a piece of paper. Most jobs, this is the case. You could learn more with 6 months of a real internship than 4 years of college.

I really wish we could get back to this system a little more. A teacher for instance, has to get more and more advanced degrees for pay raises? Why?

Do we need female studies, and stupid crap like that? Does an economics major need history, sociology, art? College is a racket, for the most part. But, you need that silly piece of paper.


Don't you take home ec in 8th grade?
 
2014-04-29 10:17:49 AM  

Thunderpipes: And how many people here really need those 4 years of college? I don't. I got my degree well after I made my way up the chain. It really is just a piece of paper. Most jobs, this is the case. You could learn more with 6 months of a real internship than 4 years of college.

I really wish we could get back to this system a little more. A teacher for instance, has to get more and more advanced degrees for pay raises? Why?


Go one thread down and how HR depts are ....... full of challenged people.  A degree is a way for the HR dept to shift out the morans.  HR has gotten so lazy that they are unwilling to sort out the morans and are moving on to requiring more degrees to act as another level of sorting.
 
2014-04-29 10:18:35 AM  

Lucky LaRue: I don't think I would want to live in a society so clearly delineated by the haves and the have-nots.


You already are.  It's just those with a college education mortgaged their future to have one in the first place.
 
2014-04-29 10:18:47 AM  

mr lawson: Hollie Maea: As an engineer, I'm not that wild about the idea of driving over a bridge that was designed by an engineer that otherwise would have been a journalism major but decided to go into engineering for the money.

they still would have to pass the courses.


If they didn't, would you advocate forgiving the loans they incurred in their failed attempt? Because in this thread, everyone is saying people should become STEM majors so they can pay back their student loans.
 
2014-04-29 10:19:50 AM  

mr lawson: Thunderpipes: Does an economics major need history, sociology, art?

not the art part, but the other two would help a lot!
/B.S. Econ


Computer science here. I think about 30% of my courses were simple requirements that has to be checked off, that really had nothing to do with my major. I suspect this is the case everywhere. Maybe things have changed, but all the courses I took were all simple textbook learning stuff. Some helped, but most, no. Not nearly enough about the real world. I could walk into a college campus right now, and teach a computer science major more than any prof I ever encounter,ed by relating things that happen in a real job/company and what they will likely really need to know in a future job.

We need more courses and programs thought by actual people with experience in the job field. We need programs taught with that in mind. More partnerships with business.
 
2014-04-29 10:20:49 AM  

Hollie Maea: SpectroBoy: Thunderpipes: This is beyond stupid. Why should a social worker or school teacher, who doesn't even need college to be honest, get a freebie, while a business owner have to pay the bills?

So your position is that the teachers who teach our children don't need college?

Really?!?

This is Fark. Everyone knows that they only majors that should exist are the ones that lead to very high paying jobs.


Those and others that while not high paying have a tangible benefit to the tax payer are the only ones they should be on the tax payer should be on the hook for.  You want to follow your bliss do it on your dime.
 
2014-04-29 10:22:50 AM  

Lucky LaRue: mr lawson: first step is to get rid of federally backed student loans

I wonder what would happen if we did get rid of federal backing.  I am guessing that we'd have a situation similar to what I was ad-libbing about earlier - the banks would let accountants and actuarials decide which degrees are a good bet, which would be good, I suppose.  But, then all the liberal arts degrees (like English, History, Art, Music, Philosophy, etc.al) would be the realm of the wealthy who could afford university on their own, and I don't think I would want to live in a society so clearly delineated by the haves and the have-nots.


So, no meritocracies then?
 
2014-04-29 10:23:35 AM  

lack of warmth: I've also met teachers, who were the dumbest people I ever met, I'm still not sure what teachers actually learn in college.


I've met doctors and lawyers who were amongst the dumbest people I've ever met.  Stupidity holds no occupational bounds.
 
2014-04-29 10:23:36 AM  

llortcM_yllort: jshine: Thunderpipes: I am a liberal now. I actually firmly believe that a college education should be cheap, and heavily subsidized by the government.

However, I also think that the standards to get into college, and what you go for need to be drastically changed. Political indoctrination needs to be gotten rid of. Stupid majors need to be ditched. College should be for real students, who have real ambition, to train for real jobs.

Trade schools exist already, and they probably don't have liberal arts requirements (no pesky history classes, for instance). They're very practical.

The problem with that is that those jobs pay much less than most jobs that you can get with your degree.  The median wage for most tradesmen are between $40,000-$55,000.  The STARTING wage for people straight out of college is about $45,000.  Right out of the gate, recent grads make more than welders and are breathing down the neck of plumbers and electricians.  Considering we're comparing people just starting out to journeymen, it's easy to see why kids choose to go to college.  It all boils down to money.



The changes that Thunderpipes proposed basically amounted to turning universities into trade schools.  Those schools already exist.  If the market has decided that the pay in those professions is where you say it is, then that's just the free market making its decisions.  If having the word "university" appended to the name on the degree (as opposed to the diversified curriculum itself) really is what makes the difference in salary, then there's nothing stopping any school from naming themselves anything they want today.
 
2014-04-29 10:25:39 AM  

hasty ambush: Hollie Maea: SpectroBoy: Thunderpipes: This is beyond stupid. Why should a social worker or school teacher, who doesn't even need college to be honest, get a freebie, while a business owner have to pay the bills?

So your position is that the teachers who teach our children don't need college?

Really?!?

This is Fark. Everyone knows that they only majors that should exist are the ones that lead to very high paying jobs.

Those and others that while not high paying have a tangible benefit to the tax payer are the only ones they should be on the tax payer should be on the hook for.  You want to follow your bliss do it on your dime.


The problem is that a good half of the country consists of idiots who think that things like social workers are useless.
 
2014-04-29 10:27:28 AM  

Hollie Maea: hasty ambush: Hollie Maea: SpectroBoy: Thunderpipes: This is beyond stupid. Why should a social worker or school teacher, who doesn't even need college to be honest, get a freebie, while a business owner have to pay the bills?

So your position is that the teachers who teach our children don't need college?

Really?!?

This is Fark. Everyone knows that they only majors that should exist are the ones that lead to very high paying jobs.

Those and others that while not high paying have a tangible benefit to the tax payer are the only ones they should be on the tax payer should be on the hook for.  You want to follow your bliss do it on your dime.

The problem is that a good half of the country consists of idiots who think that things like social workers are useless.


Should social work be a four-year degree?
 
2014-04-29 10:27:50 AM  
nicholasjacob.files.wordpress.com
24.media.tumblr.com
 
2014-04-29 10:28:17 AM  

BgJonson79: Lucky LaRue: mr lawson: first step is to get rid of federally backed student loans

I wonder what would happen if we did get rid of federal backing.  I am guessing that we'd have a situation similar to what I was ad-libbing about earlier - the banks would let accountants and actuarials decide which degrees are a good bet, which would be good, I suppose.  But, then all the liberal arts degrees (like English, History, Art, Music, Philosophy, etc.al) would be the realm of the wealthy who could afford university on their own, and I don't think I would want to live in a society so clearly delineated by the haves and the have-nots.

So, no meritocracies then?


What's your definition of merit?  Because if you're equating a family having money with their merit, you need your head examined.
 
2014-04-29 10:29:36 AM  

Khellendros: BgJonson79: Lucky LaRue: mr lawson: first step is to get rid of federally backed student loans

I wonder what would happen if we did get rid of federal backing.  I am guessing that we'd have a situation similar to what I was ad-libbing about earlier - the banks would let accountants and actuarials decide which degrees are a good bet, which would be good, I suppose.  But, then all the liberal arts degrees (like English, History, Art, Music, Philosophy, etc.al) would be the realm of the wealthy who could afford university on their own, and I don't think I would want to live in a society so clearly delineated by the haves and the have-nots.

So, no meritocracies then?

What's your definition of merit?  Because if you're equating a family having money with their merit, you need your head examined.


If you're smart enough to get into college, shouldn't you be smart enough to get a job that'll let you pay back your loans without issue?
 
2014-04-29 10:29:49 AM  

BgJonson79: Should social work be a four-year degree?


That depends on whether you want to teach your social workers "do this" vs. "do this, because of these reasons".  In the former case, probably not; in the latter case, probably yes.

/ I'm not saying there's a right & wrong answer.  It's a judgement-call.
 
2014-04-29 10:30:52 AM  

BgJonson79: If you're smart enough to get into college, shouldn't you be smart enough to get a job that'll let you pay back your loans without issue?


Strangely enough, it's far easier to acquire debt than it is to pay it off.  Who'd a thunk it?
 
2014-04-29 10:30:54 AM  

Thunderpipes: mr lawson: Thunderpipes: Does an economics major need history, sociology, art?

not the art part, but the other two would help a lot!
/B.S. Econ

Computer science here. I think about 30% of my courses were simple requirements that has to be checked off, that really had nothing to do with my major. I suspect this is the case everywhere. Maybe things have changed, but all the courses I took were all simple textbook learning stuff. Some helped, but most, no. Not nearly enough about the real world. I could walk into a college campus right now, and teach a computer science major more than any prof I ever encounter,ed by relating things that happen in a real job/company and what they will likely really need to know in a future job.

We need more courses and programs thought by actual people with experience in the job field. We need programs taught with that in mind. More partnerships with business.


I agree 100%.  The best professors I had were the adjuncts that did that shiat for a living and wanted to teach a class or so because they enjoyed it.  Meanwhile they always got pissed on for promotions etc in favor of people who hated teaching, had 0 experience, but could write obscure theoretical papers about shiat that is 5 layers removed from anything that happens in the real world.

I'm not saying don't teach theory, but the people who are teaching theory need to be able to relate it back to how things really are done.  That seems particularly lacking a lot of the time.
 
2014-04-29 10:32:12 AM  
NO!!!  I don't think they know what "forgive" means...    I want someone to forgive my mortgage payments!
 
2014-04-29 10:32:56 AM  
BgJonson79:

Should social work be a four-year degree?

Yeah, it should.  A bad social worker is worse than no social worker.

Of course most people on here think that being a social worker is a "no brainer" that only requires "common sense", but that's only because they are idiots.
 
2014-04-29 10:33:19 AM  

jshine: BgJonson79: If you're smart enough to get into college, shouldn't you be smart enough to get a job that'll let you pay back your loans without issue?

Strangely enough, it's far easier to acquire debt than it is to pay it off.  Who'd a thunk it?


True story ;-)
 
2014-04-29 10:34:18 AM  

Hollie Maea: BgJonson79:

Should social work be a four-year degree?

Yeah, it should.  A bad social worker is worse than no social worker.

Of course most people on here think that being a social worker is a "no brainer" that only requires "common sense", but that's only because they are idiots.


I have serious doubts it's harder than fluid dynamics or differential equations.  That said, I 100% agree with your first sentence.
 
2014-04-29 10:34:58 AM  

jshine: BgJonson79: Should social work be a four-year degree?

That depends on whether you want to teach your social workers "do this" vs. "do this, because of these reasons".  In the former case, probably not; in the latter case, probably yes.

/ I'm not saying there's a right & wrong answer.  It's a judgement-call.


I absolutely agree RE: judgement call.
 
2014-04-29 10:37:16 AM  

jshine: llortcM_yllort: jshine: Thunderpipes: I am a liberal now. I actually firmly believe that a college education should be cheap, and heavily subsidized by the government.

However, I also think that the standards to get into college, and what you go for need to be drastically changed. Political indoctrination needs to be gotten rid of. Stupid majors need to be ditched. College should be for real students, who have real ambition, to train for real jobs.

Trade schools exist already, and they probably don't have liberal arts requirements (no pesky history classes, for instance). They're very practical.

The problem with that is that those jobs pay much less than most jobs that you can get with your degree.  The median wage for most tradesmen are between $40,000-$55,000.  The STARTING wage for people straight out of college is about $45,000.  Right out of the gate, recent grads make more than welders and are breathing down the neck of plumbers and electricians.  Considering we're comparing people just starting out to journeymen, it's easy to see why kids choose to go to college.  It all boils down to money.


The changes that Thunderpipes proposed basically amounted to turning universities into trade schools.  Those schools already exist.  If the market has decided that the pay in those professions is where you say it is, then that's just the free market making its decisions.  If having the word "university" appended to the name on the degree (as opposed to the diversified curriculum itself) really is what makes the difference in salary, then there's nothing stopping any school from naming themselves anything they want today.


No, the difference is that, for a variety of reasons, the pay of office jobs and jobs that require degrees have outpaced the trades.  It's not that trade schools don't call themselves "universities," it's just that programmers get paid more than electricians so lo and behold more people become programmers.  Like you said, the free market has made it's choice and students are responding by avoiding the trades.

People don't go to trade schools because the money isn't there.  More people flocking to those schools certainly won't help that.
 
2014-04-29 10:37:23 AM  

BgJonson79: If you're smart enough to get into college, shouldn't you be smart enough to get a job that'll let you pay back your loans without issue?


Again, what's your definition of merit?  Because this statement has no relation to creating a meritocracy.
 
2014-04-29 10:37:25 AM  

NickelP: Thunderpipes: mr lawson: Thunderpipes: Does an economics major need history, sociology, art?

not the art part, but the other two would help a lot!
/B.S. Econ

Computer science here. I think about 30% of my courses were simple requirements that has to be checked off, that really had nothing to do with my major. I suspect this is the case everywhere. Maybe things have changed, but all the courses I took were all simple textbook learning stuff. Some helped, but most, no. Not nearly enough about the real world. I could walk into a college campus right now, and teach a computer science major more than any prof I ever encounter,ed by relating things that happen in a real job/company and what they will likely really need to know in a future job.

We need more courses and programs thought by actual people with experience in the job field. We need programs taught with that in mind. More partnerships with business.

I agree 100%.  The best professors I had were the adjuncts that did that shiat for a living and wanted to teach a class or so because they enjoyed it.  Meanwhile they always got pissed on for promotions etc in favor of people who hated teaching, had 0 experience, but could write obscure theoretical papers about shiat that is 5 layers removed from anything that happens in the real world.

I'm not saying don't teach theory, but the people who are teaching theory need to be able to relate it back to how things really are done.  That seems particularly lacking a lot of the time.


Heh, my college's motto was German for "theory and practice."
 
2014-04-29 10:38:38 AM  

llortcM_yllort: jshine: llortcM_yllort: jshine: Thunderpipes: I am a liberal now. I actually firmly believe that a college education should be cheap, and heavily subsidized by the government.

However, I also think that the standards to get into college, and what you go for need to be drastically changed. Political indoctrination needs to be gotten rid of. Stupid majors need to be ditched. College should be for real students, who have real ambition, to train for real jobs.

Trade schools exist already, and they probably don't have liberal arts requirements (no pesky history classes, for instance). They're very practical.

The problem with that is that those jobs pay much less than most jobs that you can get with your degree.  The median wage for most tradesmen are between $40,000-$55,000.  The STARTING wage for people straight out of college is about $45,000.  Right out of the gate, recent grads make more than welders and are breathing down the neck of plumbers and electricians.  Considering we're comparing people just starting out to journeymen, it's easy to see why kids choose to go to college.  It all boils down to money.


The changes that Thunderpipes proposed basically amounted to turning universities into trade schools.  Those schools already exist.  If the market has decided that the pay in those professions is where you say it is, then that's just the free market making its decisions.  If having the word "university" appended to the name on the degree (as opposed to the diversified curriculum itself) really is what makes the difference in salary, then there's nothing stopping any school from naming themselves anything they want today.

No, the difference is that, for a variety of reasons, the pay of office jobs and jobs that require degrees have outpaced the trades.  It's not that trade schools don't call themselves "universities," it's just that programmers get paid more than electricians so lo and behold more people become programmers.  Like you said, the free market has ...


I agree.
 
2014-04-29 10:39:09 AM  

Honest Bender: How about instead, we cultivate a mindset that you don't HAVE to go to college directly from high school and you don't HAVE to be a full time student for 4 years straight.

Encourage people to take a year or so to work after high school, save up some money, and work their way through college part time.  It may take more than 4 years, but students will have considerably less debt, they'll appreciate their education more, and they wont be strapped with crippling debt after graduation.


padresteve.files.wordpress.com
/dnrtfa
/know what you are signing & pay your freaking bills - just like farmer Bundy should pay his bills too.
/third & unrelated slashie
 
2014-04-29 10:39:19 AM  

BgJonson79: Hollie Maea: BgJonson79:

Should social work be a four-year degree?

Yeah, it should.  A bad social worker is worse than no social worker.

Of course most people on here think that being a social worker is a "no brainer" that only requires "common sense", but that's only because they are idiots.

I have serious doubts it's harder than fluid dynamics or differential equations.  That said, I 100% agree with your first sentence.


its just not the same kind of work.  It is hard in a different way.  While an engineer may be use to working on problems that have logical paths that require a great deal of education to get the correct answer, many other fields have no correct answer.  That doesn't indicate more education and preparation wouldn't let the workers achieve better answers and results though.
 
2014-04-29 10:39:20 AM  

BgJonson79: Heh, my college's motto was German for "theory and practice."


In theory, theory & practice are the same, but in practice they're not.
 
2014-04-29 10:40:24 AM  

BgJonson79: Hollie Maea: BgJonson79:

Should social work be a four-year degree?

Yeah, it should.  A bad social worker is worse than no social worker.

Of course most people on here think that being a social worker is a "no brainer" that only requires "common sense", but that's only because they are idiots.

I have serious doubts it's harder than fluid dynamics or differential equations.  That said, I 100% agree with your first sentence.


Oh, it's definitely not harder than those. But there is enough that you need to know to do it right that it warrants a four year degree. In general, the last two years is mostly practicum anyway.

I'm an engineer, not a social worker.  I just brought up social worker because it a good example of a degree that Farkers love to characterize as useless.  The "puppetry" and "underwater basket weaving" degrees are just strawman that are not worth responding to.
 
2014-04-29 10:41:12 AM  

dragonchild: Honest Bender: How about instead, we cultivate a mindset that you don't HAVE to go to college directly from high school and you don't HAVE to be a full time student for 4 years straight.
Meanwhile, secondary education is free in first-world countries.


meanwhile, fark you. pay your freaking bills.
 
2014-04-29 10:41:55 AM  

BgJonson79: Thunderpipes: And how many people here really need those 4 years of college? I don't. I got my degree well after I made my way up the chain. It really is just a piece of paper. Most jobs, this is the case. You could learn more with 6 months of a real internship than 4 years of college.

I really wish we could get back to this system a little more. A teacher for instance, has to get more and more advanced degrees for pay raises? Why?

Do we need female studies, and stupid crap like that? Does an economics major need history, sociology, art? College is a racket, for the most part. But, you need that silly piece of paper.

Don't you take home ec in 8th grade?


I did, we learned how to make cookies and sew a gym bag together. Neither of which I need or could not have learned at home.
 
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