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(The New York Times)   In a move that nobody expected, the NYT calls to forgive $1.2 trillion in student loans   ( nytimes.com) divider line
    More: Scary  
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8326 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Apr 2014 at 9:03 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-04-29 08:27:24 AM  
We'll forgive your student loans if you join the Army and serve for at least 4 years including tours in Crimea, the Caucasus, Pakistan, and North Korea.

Because my "smite all those bastards who deserve it" policy has been suffering from a lack of manpower.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-04-29 08:35:34 AM  
OK, maybe I should have read the artice before commenting. If NYT is calling for prospective changes, requiring new contracts to more explicitly say "by the way, if anything happens you are so screwed", that seems like a good idea. Whether to accelerate the loan on death of a cosigner is simply a tradeoff between interest rate and risk.

We need a general principle of consumer contract law requiring a short summary of all important conditions, and anything in the fine print can only be used to resolve ambiguities in the first page. Like saying the interest rate is relative to prime right up front, and specifying that prime is as published on the Wall Street Journal on the first Monday of each month later.
 
2014-04-29 08:37:49 AM  
I read that as a call for higher interest rates, in exchange for slightly less limited consumer protections.
 
2014-04-29 08:38:11 AM  
Good luck with that, kiddos.
 
2014-04-29 08:40:12 AM  

rumpelstiltskin: I read that as a call for higher interest rates, in exchange for slightly less limited consumer protections.


That's exactly what I'm in favor of.  Make them dischargable in bankruptcy like they used to be.  The price of education has been artificially inflated by cheap money, and that is NOT a good thing.

/never had any student loans, thank god
//have seen them hound people forever
 
2014-04-29 08:53:07 AM  
Hahahaha!  Yeah.. let's forgive the student loans for all those dumb-f*cks who spent $40k / year going to Columbia's School of Journalism so they could take a $30k/year job writing stories about how taxpayers should pay for their bad decision making.
 
2014-04-29 08:57:45 AM  
How about instead, we cultivate a mindset that you don't HAVE to go to college directly from high school and you don't HAVE to be a full time student for 4 years straight.

Encourage people to take a year or so to work after high school, save up some money, and work their way through college part time.  It may take more than 4 years, but students will have considerably less debt, they'll appreciate their education more, and they wont be strapped with crippling debt after graduation.
 
2014-04-29 09:02:16 AM  
gretachristina.typepad.com

No one expects the Vanished Obligation!
 
2014-04-29 09:04:50 AM  

nekom: rumpelstiltskin: I read that as a call for higher interest rates, in exchange for slightly less limited consumer protections.

That's exactly what I'm in favor of.  Make them dischargable in bankruptcy like they used to be.  The price of education has been artificially inflated by cheap money, and that is NOT a good thing.

/never had any student loans, thank god
//have seen them hound people forever


The problem with making them dischargeable is that many students (especially today with over inflated tuition) are heavily in debt without a job right after graduation. It will make it much harder to get loans.

What we need is more emphasis on tech schools, higher standards for admission to colleges, and possibly tracked high schools to encourage .
 
2014-04-29 09:06:07 AM  

Lucky LaRue: Hahahaha!  Yeah.. let's forgive the student loans for all those dumb-f*cks who spent $40k / year going to Columbia's School of Journalism so they could take a $30k/year job writing stories about how taxpayers should pay for their bad decision making.


I thought that was the job of the government to make up for people's bad decisions, at least that's all I ever hear out of Democrats.
 
2014-04-29 09:07:32 AM  

Honest Bender: How about instead, we cultivate a mindset that you don't HAVE to go to college directly from high school and you don't HAVE to be a full time student for 4 years straight.

Meanwhile, secondary education is free in first-world countries.
 
2014-04-29 09:07:42 AM  
I wonder why student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy, but home mortgages are not.
 
2014-04-29 09:08:17 AM  
Jesus, is no one going to read the thing?  It's 360 words, none of them calling for loan forgiveness.
 
2014-04-29 09:12:58 AM  
whats with the new paywall on the times site?  I can't get to the article.
 
2014-04-29 09:13:37 AM  

DubtodaIll: Lucky LaRue: Hahahaha!  Yeah.. let's forgive the student loans for all those dumb-f*cks who spent $40k / year going to Columbia's School of Journalism so they could take a $30k/year job writing stories about how taxpayers should pay for their bad decision making.

I thought that was the job of the government to make up for people's bad decisions, at least that's all I ever hear out of Democrats.


To be fair, it was under Republican leadership that taxpayers bailed out the banks.
 
2014-04-29 09:14:07 AM  
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2014-04-29 09:15:16 AM  
We seem to forge foreign aid loans regularly. Can't see why we shouldn't put Americans first once in a while.

I'd rather see free education, but with way tougher standards where we didn't send everyone to college. Make it something you have to work for with entrance exams, etc.

Never happen though: colleges like to make money.
 
2014-04-29 09:15:51 AM  

Honest Bender: How about instead, we cultivate a mindset that you don't HAVE to go to college directly from high school and you don't HAVE to be a full time student for 4 years straight.

Encourage people to take a year or so to work after high school, save up some money, and work their way through college part time.  It may take more than 4 years, but students will have considerably less debt, they'll appreciate their education more, and they wont be strapped with crippling debt after graduation.


It's far less likely that people will be able to do that, and graduation rates will plummet.  The percentage of people who actually graduate with their degree going part time to school wile working in their later 20's is pretty terrible.  Those that hold off going to college tend to marry much younger, and put themselves in financial difficulty quickly.  In addition, you're losing a massive portion of prime earning time as an adult if you can't start your career until age 30 because you put off college until your mid 20's, then went part time through your curriculum while working a crap job.

I'm not saying that your idea doesn't have merit, I'm just pointing out that there are some pretty drastic consequences to doing so.  High school curriculum reform would go a long way to ensuring that 18 year olds were mentally and emotionally prepared for college.  And to paraphrase Warren - we should stop looking at students as profit centers.  Most modern countries can get their deserving students through college and on to productive careers without crippling (or often ANY) debt.  Let's go that way.
 
2014-04-29 09:15:52 AM  

Lucky LaRue: DubtodaIll: Lucky LaRue: Hahahaha!  Yeah.. let's forgive the student loans for all those dumb-f*cks who spent $40k / year going to Columbia's School of Journalism so they could take a $30k/year job writing stories about how taxpayers should pay for their bad decision making.

I thought that was the job of the government to make up for people's bad decisions, at least that's all I ever hear out of Democrats.

To be fair, it was under Republican leadership that taxpayers bailed out the banks.


Indeed; the abdication of personal responsibility for personal choices is not a partisan issue.
 
2014-04-29 09:15:53 AM  

dragonchild: Honest Bender: How about instead, we cultivate a mindset that you don't HAVE to go to college directly from high school and you don't HAVE to be a full time student for 4 years straight.
Meanwhile, secondary education is free in first-world countries.


Perhaps for the end user.
 
2014-04-29 09:17:00 AM  

Honest Bender: How about instead, we cultivate a mindset that you don't HAVE to go to college directly from high school and you don't HAVE to be a full time student for 4 years straight.

Encourage people to take a year or so to work after high school, save up some money, and work their way through college part time.  It may take more than 4 years, but students will have considerably less debt, they'll appreciate their education more, and they wont be strapped with crippling debt after graduation.


Let's add to that "If you don't have much money you need to pick a cheaper school"
 
2014-04-29 09:17:14 AM  
Some of these "students" are actually surprised that when a major piece of collateral (your mother) seizes to exist that the loan might come due immediately?

I suspect these "students" are not learning.
 
2014-04-29 09:18:04 AM  
Can we get Debtor's Prisons up and running again? Maybe indentured servitude?

I can imagine a building full of people forced to work for a bank, or maybe they could sell their marker and make'em work as customer service phone reps or something. You know, something useful.
 
2014-04-29 09:19:53 AM  

ZAZ: We'll forgive your student loans if you join the Army and serve for at least 4 years including tours in Crimea, the Caucasus, Pakistan, and North Korea.

Because my "smite all those bastards who deserve it" policy has been suffering from a lack of manpower.


Already did 24 years, so can I get my mortgage forgiven?
 
2014-04-29 09:20:02 AM  
Ok, somebody map out for me who gets screwed out of money with this plan, and let me know how I can ensoure I am in the group that gets the free money?
 
2014-04-29 09:20:08 AM  

edmo: We seem to forge foreign aid loans regularly. Can't see why we shouldn't put Americans first once in a while.

I'd rather see free education, but with way tougher standards where we didn't send everyone to college. Make it something you have to work for with entrance exams, etc.

Never happen though: colleges like to make money.


I say make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy just like most other debt and let the market absorb that however it will. ...but no more special legal protection of the bank's investment. Government grants can be provided to the brightest students from truly poor backgrounds.

If this leads to fewer degrees and more efficient colleges, so much the better.
 
2014-04-29 09:20:41 AM  
Let those who go into business or law pay their loans.  Those who are ground-level contributors to society should, after four or five years verifiably working in a high-need social area, should get a large portion of their loan forgiven.  It makes sense.  But the government HAS to follow through.

Virginia has a program that allowed elementary school teachers in impoverished counties to, after five years, get a payoff of 5 to 7,000 dollars on their student loan.  I worked in the area for three years, at which point the state abandoned the program entirely.

Thanks, guys.
 
2014-04-29 09:21:25 AM  
I am a liberal now. I actually firmly believe that a college education should be cheap, and heavily subsidized by the government.

However, I also think that the standards to get into college, and what you go for need to be drastically changed. Political indoctrination needs to be gotten rid of. Stupid majors need to be ditched. College should be for real students, who have real ambition, to train for real jobs.
 
2014-04-29 09:23:10 AM  

ArkAngel: nekom: rumpelstiltskin: I read that as a call for higher interest rates, in exchange for slightly less limited consumer protections.

That's exactly what I'm in favor of.  Make them dischargable in bankruptcy like they used to be.  The price of education has been artificially inflated by cheap money, and that is NOT a good thing.

/never had any student loans, thank god
//have seen them hound people forever


The problem with making them dischargeable is that many students (especially today with over inflated tuition) are heavily in debt without a job right after graduation. It will make it much harder to get loans.

What we need is more emphasis on tech schools, higher standards for admission to colleges, and possibly tracked high schools to encourage .

Student loans can be made dischargable only after a certain amount of time has passed since they were incurred (say 7 years) and in circumstances of "significant hardship."  Bankruptcy courts decide level of dischargability/modification on personal debts all the time, so they can certainly handle the "squishiness" that comes with a "significant hardship" standard.  The essential point is that there's no reason to hold a loan over an underemployed person's head indefinitely since that just encourages them to remain underemployed (at least anywhere near the margins).  This will likely reduce access to loan money at least until the dust settles and everyone has a good understanding of what constitutes significant hardship, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.  Less dollars available should lead to lower tuition (or at least a slowing of the rate of increase) overall (even if the elite institutions remain astronomically high.
 
2014-04-29 09:23:54 AM  
I've got a 6 figure debt, but a good job becuase of them.
I pay them, begrudgingly- but I pay them.

What really bothers me, is the interest rates on the federal loans.  The FED can give huge banks interest free loans, but not the citizens investing in an education.
Wipe out the interst on fed loans, dial back the BS on private loans.  That's how I would start.
 
2014-04-29 09:24:06 AM  

Thunderpipes: I am a liberal now. I actually firmly believe that a college education should be cheap, and heavily subsidized by the government.

However, I also think that the standards to get into college, and what you go for need to be drastically changed. Political indoctrination needs to be gotten rid of. Stupid majors need to be ditched. College should be for real students, who have real ambition, to train for real jobs.


Trade schools exist already, and they probably don't have liberal arts requirements (no pesky history classes, for instance). They're very practical.
 
2014-04-29 09:24:15 AM  

dragonchild: Honest Bender: How about instead, we cultivate a mindset that you don't HAVE to go to college directly from high school and you don't HAVE to be a full time student for 4 years straight.
Meanwhile, secondary education is free in first-world countries.


It's cute how you think "free" works.
 
2014-04-29 09:24:49 AM  

Lucky LaRue: DubtodaIll: Lucky LaRue: Hahahaha!  Yeah.. let's forgive the student loans for all those dumb-f*cks who spent $40k / year going to Columbia's School of Journalism so they could take a $30k/year job writing stories about how taxpayers should pay for their bad decision making.

I thought that was the job of the government to make up for people's bad decisions, at least that's all I ever hear out of Democrats.

To be fair, it was under Republican leadership that taxpayers bailed out the banks.


A lot of republicans, like myself, were against it.
 
2014-04-29 09:24:51 AM  

Pick: I wonder why student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy, but home mortgages are not.


The house can be sold to recoup some of the debt, where how do you return the knowledge placed in your head?  My bro is losing his house as part of bankruptcy, are the college grads willing to give back the degrees?
 
2014-04-29 09:24:58 AM  

hinten: Some of these "students" are actually surprised that when a major piece of collateral (your mother) seizes to exist that the loan might come due immediately?

I suspect these "students" are not learning.


I think you meant "ceases." When mocking "students," I recommend at least picking the correct homonym.
 
2014-04-29 09:25:21 AM  

Thunderpipes: I am a liberal now. I actually firmly believe that a college education should be cheap, and heavily subsidized by the government.

However, I also think that the standards to get into college, and what you go for need to be drastically changed. Political indoctrination needs to be gotten rid of. Stupid majors need to be ditched. College should be for real students, who have real ambition, to train for real jobs.


I'd subscribe to your newsletter.
 
2014-04-29 09:25:21 AM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: Let those who go into business or law pay their loans.  Those who are ground-level contributors to society should, after four or five years verifiably working in a high-need social area, should get a large portion of their loan forgiven.  It makes sense.  But the government HAS to follow through.

Virginia has a program that allowed elementary school teachers in impoverished counties to, after five years, get a payoff of 5 to 7,000 dollars on their student loan.  I worked in the area for three years, at which point the state abandoned the program entirely.

Thanks, guys.


This is beyond stupid. Why should a social worker or school teacher, who doesn't even need college to be honest, get a freebie, while a business owner have to pay the bills? That program you point out, gives taxpayer money, to people who will ultimately get a taxpayer pension, why are they more deserving? Education majors statistically do much worse in college as well.
 
2014-04-29 09:25:37 AM  

Thunderpipes: I am a liberal now. I actually firmly believe that a college education should be cheap, and heavily subsidized by the government.

However, I also think that the standards to get into college, and what you go for need to be drastically changed. Political indoctrination needs to be gotten rid of. Stupid majors need to be ditched. College should be for real students, who have real ambition, to train for real jobs.


You sound lucid to me. Nurse, release this inpatient.
 
2014-04-29 09:26:09 AM  

Unemployedingreenland: ArkAngel: nekom: rumpelstiltskin: I read that as a call for higher interest rates, in exchange for slightly less limited consumer protections.

That's exactly what I'm in favor of.  Make them dischargable in bankruptcy like they used to be.  The price of education has been artificially inflated by cheap money, and that is NOT a good thing.

/never had any student loans, thank god
//have seen them hound people forever

The problem with making them dischargeable is that many students (especially today with over inflated tuition) are heavily in debt without a job right after graduation. It will make it much harder to get loans.

What we need is more emphasis on tech schools, higher standards for admission to colleges, and possibly tracked high schools to encourage .

Student loans can be made dischargable only after a certain amount of time has passed since they were incurred (say 7 years) and in circumstances of "significant hardship."  Bankruptcy courts decide level of dischargability/modification on personal debts all the time, so they can certainly handle the "squishiness" that comes with a "significant hardship" standard.  The essential point is that there's no reason to hold a loan over an underemployed person's head indefinitely since that just encourages them to remain underemployed (at least anywhere near the margins).  This will likely reduce access to loan money at least until the dust settles and everyone has a good understanding of what constitutes significant hardship, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.  Less dollars available should lead to lower tuition (or at least a slowing of the rate of increase) overall (even if the elite institutions remain astronomically high.


If students are so heavily in debt, maybe making huge loans harder to get is actually a *good thing*.
 
2014-04-29 09:26:19 AM  

Lucky LaRue: DubtodaIll: Lucky LaRue: Hahahaha!  Yeah.. let's forgive the student loans for all those dumb-f*cks who spent $40k / year going to Columbia's School of Journalism so they could take a $30k/year job writing stories about how taxpayers should pay for their bad decision making.

I thought that was the job of the government to make up for people's bad decisions, at least that's all I ever hear out of Democrats.

To be fair, it was under Republican leadership that taxpayers bailed out the banks.


To be even more fair, it was under a Republican President and a Democratic Party controlled House and Senate.
 
2014-04-29 09:28:59 AM  

Honest Bender: How about instead, we cultivate a mindset that you don't HAVE to go to college directly from high school and you don't HAVE to be a full time student for 4 years straight.

Encourage people to take a year or so to work after high school, save up some money, and work their way through college part time.  It may take more than 4 years, but students will have considerably less debt, they'll appreciate their education more, and they wont be strapped with crippling debt after graduation.


Pff, why do that when we could make them even more draconian than they already are.

Upon the age of 18 you are automatically signed up for no less than 80k in school loans that are non-dischargeable, even through service.

Now, I have to go listen to my Dad talk about the good old days of going through the schooling to become a dentist and not pay a dime.
 
2014-04-29 09:29:00 AM  
Yeah, because there is nothing we need more than yet another giant act to reinforce the notion that irresponsible behavior never eventually results in negative consequences.

Lost your job because you are loser, here, have 99999 weeks of unemployment.

Did something astonishingly stupid and hurt yourself, here have payments for your idiocy.

Murderer, here have cable tv and a basketball court.

Personal responsibility for the extinction!!
 
2014-04-29 09:29:27 AM  

Thunderpipes: I am a liberal now. I actually firmly believe that a college education should be cheap, and heavily subsidized by the government.

However, I also think that the standards to get into college, and what you go for need to be drastically changed. Political indoctrination needs to be gotten rid of. Stupid majors need to be ditched. College should be for real students, who have real ambition, to train for real jobs.


By political indoctrination do you perchance mean "Exposure to reality?"  I know how that stuff annoys you.

And stupid majors? Are you to decide which areas of learning are "worthy"?

If college was only meant to train you for a job it would be a trade school. NTTAWWT
 
2014-04-29 09:30:33 AM  
Ctrl-f "forgive"

Hmm. Fark must have linked to the wrong article?
 
2014-04-29 09:30:54 AM  
Hey, you're going to refund all the money *I* paid somewhat recently, right?  Oh, your interest rate is "too high".  My interest rate was maxed or nearly maxed @ 8.25 - 8.5% (until I later consolidated).  Public service forgiveness?  Nope.  Remind me again how horrible it is these days?
 
2014-04-29 09:31:08 AM  

nekom: rumpelstiltskin: I read that as a call for higher interest rates, in exchange for slightly less limited consumer protections.

That's exactly what I'm in favor of.  Make them dischargable in bankruptcy like they used to be.  The price of education has been artificially inflated by cheap money, and that is NOT a good thing.

/never had any student loans, thank god
//have seen them hound people forever


No. Convert them to equity. The bank gets 10% of the students salary for the 1st 10 years. If the student gets a good job, great. If he/she gets a bad job, too bad. If he/she doesn't get a job at all, sucks to be the bank. And after 10 years, the whole thing gets written off.

Going to college is a risk; the bank should share it with the student.
 
2014-04-29 09:31:26 AM  

Thunderpipes: This is beyond stupid. Why should a social worker or school teacher, who doesn't even need college to be honest, get a freebie, while a business owner have to pay the bills?


So your position is that the teachers who teach our children don't need college?

Really?!?
 
2014-04-29 09:31:30 AM  
Unemployedingreenland:
Student loans can be made dischargable only after a certain amount of time has passed since they were incurred (say 7 years) and in circumstances of "significant hardship."  Bankruptcy courts decide level of dischargability/modification on personal debts all the time, so they can certainly handle the "squishiness" that comes with a "significant hardship" standard.

Student loan debts can be discharged (without a bankruptcy too) but it is EXTREMELY difficult.  You basically have to prove that not only are you destitute, but you will absolutely always remain so no matter what you do.  They are nearly IMPOSSIBLE to shake since the changes in the 90s.
 
2014-04-29 09:31:41 AM  
I just read the article through twice and didn't see it call anywhere for loan forgiveness.

So either I have reading comprehension issues, or subby does.
 
2014-04-29 09:31:46 AM  

Thunderpipes: College should be for real students, who have real ambition, to train for real jobs.


That's what trade schools/apprenticeships are for.
 
2014-04-29 09:32:44 AM  

Thunderpipes: I am a liberal now. I actually firmly believe that a college education should be cheap, and heavily subsidized by the government.

However, I also think that the standards to get into college, and what you go for need to be drastically changed. Political indoctrination needs to be gotten rid of. Stupid majors need to be ditched. College should be for real students, who have real ambition, to train for real jobs.


As a conservative I say "This^"
 
2014-04-29 09:32:55 AM  
Why don't we scrap the whole idea of paying tuition to an institution, and instead tax graduates 10% of their income for 10 years and pay that to the institution that educated them? No crushing debt if you can't find a job, and schools will have a much stronger incentive to ensure graduates are employable when they leave.
 
2014-04-29 09:33:21 AM  

gochuck: hinten: Some of these "students" are actually surprised that when a major piece of collateral (your mother) seizes to exist that the loan might come due immediately?

I suspect these "students" are not learning.

I think you meant "ceases." When mocking "students," I recommend at least picking the correct homonym.


Ok, you pass the test.
insertIfailpicturehere.jpg
 
2014-04-29 09:33:44 AM  

SpectroBoy: Thunderpipes: This is beyond stupid. Why should a social worker or school teacher, who doesn't even need college to be honest, get a freebie, while a business owner have to pay the bills?

So your position is that the teachers who teach our children don't need college?

Really?!?


I think you're being trolled.  OTH, the lady that cut my hair yesterday was telling me she is homeschooling her child, even though she dropped out of high school and got her GED.
 
2014-04-29 09:35:44 AM  

SpectroBoy: Thunderpipes: This is beyond stupid. Why should a social worker or school teacher, who doesn't even need college to be honest, get a freebie, while a business owner have to pay the bills?

So your position is that the teachers who teach our children don't need college?

Really?!?


Trust me, they do not portray college level knowledge when teaching K-5 grade lessons.

Capo Del Bandito: Thunderpipes: College should be for real students, who have real ambition, to train for real jobs.

That's what trade schools/apprenticeships are for.


Really, that's your stance?  If you want a doc who went to trade school and apprenticed, you go right ahead.  Thunderpipes' point stands.
 
2014-04-29 09:37:13 AM  

pantojar: Jesus, is no one going to read the thing?  It's 360 words, none of them calling for loan forgiveness.


Finally, someone points that out.
 
2014-04-29 09:37:19 AM  

Saiga410: Thunderpipes: I am a liberal now. I actually firmly believe that a college education should be cheap, and heavily subsidized by the government.

However, I also think that the standards to get into college, and what you go for need to be drastically changed. Political indoctrination needs to be gotten rid of. Stupid majors need to be ditched. College should be for real students, who have real ambition, to train for real jobs.

As a conservative I say "This^"


Wait.  You want college to be a place where students train for real jobs?  Isn't that called VoTech?  And, if we get rid of political indoctrination, then what the hell is Bob Jones University and its like going to do?  And while I'm asking questions, what is a "stupid major" and who decides that without coloring the decision process with the political ideology that you seem to want to remove from those universities?
 
2014-04-29 09:37:28 AM  
yeah, subby, the article doesn't say that.
 
2014-04-29 09:38:09 AM  

nekom: That's exactly what I'm in favor of. Make them dischargable in bankruptcy like they used to be.


I think that's trickier than it sounds. The original idea was to make some government money available to poor kids, who had to meet poverty guidelines, because what bank is going to lend money to a kid with nothing who's relatives all have nothing as well? That's a nice idea, and we tried it for about 10 years, and realized in 1975 that we weren't really giving loans at all because too many people were just graduating and defaulting. I don't know why they were defaulting; maybe they all had good reasons. In any case, the question became, "Can we afford to just pay grants for poor kids' educations?" and the answer was no, or at least, maybe we can, but we don't want to.
A lot of student loans just look stupid to begin with. People borrow money to go to third tier law schools. Sure, they graduate, but they'll be lucky to get jobs as lawyers, and even if they do, they aren't going to be making white shoe bucks. And then you have those who borrow money to go to a trade school or the local Juco, and they probably won't graduate in the first place, and even if they do, they'll never make enough money to justify the cost.
Those sorts of loans would never exist if it weren't for government subsidies, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't exist because it isn't that easy to separate the stupid loans from the loans that give some kids a chance to escape the poverty we make for them. And the reason those government subsidies don't look like they cost anything, the reason we can make them without the conservatives trying to snatch them away like food from the mouths of hungry children, is because of complicated budget games that rely on the fact that eventually, the government is going to recover most of the money it guaranteed.
Rather than letting the loans be dischargeable in bankruptcy, I think we should first get rid of the middlemen making the risk free profit, and second, allow for various forms of forgiveness, such as working as a public defender, or a teacher, or whatever job might suck but need doing. We would see a spike in forgiveness, but we would also have something to show for it when the conservatives come a-snatching.
 
2014-04-29 09:39:15 AM  
C'mon, the 1% worked hard to enslave the next generation.

They're not going to let them off the hook that easy!
 
2014-04-29 09:40:39 AM  

Lucky LaRue: Hahahaha!  Yeah.. let's forgive the student loans for all those dumb-f*cks who spent $40k / year going to Columbia's School of Journalism so they could take a $30k/year job writing stories about how taxpayers should pay for their bad decision making.


Seriously.  fark these people.  They are walking proof that a college degree doesn't mean you aren't a dumbass.  Forgiving their debt doesn't make it go away, it means everybody else paid it off for them.
 
2014-04-29 09:41:12 AM  

Pick: I wonder why student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy, but home mortgages are not.


Primarily because the banks have a large and well-funded lobby.  They would have received these kinds of protections for other kinds of loans as well, but there are other moneyed interests that rely on relatively loose credit for home purchases.  Periodically this tug of war comes up with credit card debt as well.
 
2014-04-29 09:41:29 AM  

Lucky LaRue: SpectroBoy: Thunderpipes: This is beyond stupid. Why should a social worker or school teacher, who doesn't even need college to be honest, get a freebie, while a business owner have to pay the bills?

So your position is that the teachers who teach our children don't need college?

Really?!?

I think you're being trolled.  OTH, the lady that cut my hair yesterday was telling me she is homeschooling her child, even though she dropped out of high school and got her GED.


My wife has been told by several teachers that she should go back to school and get into teaching, others thought she was a teacher.  I've also met teachers, who were the dumbest people I ever met, I'm still not sure what teachers actually learn in college.
 
2014-04-29 09:41:53 AM  

Lucky LaRue: Saiga410: Thunderpipes: I am a liberal now. I actually firmly believe that a college education should be cheap, and heavily subsidized by the government.

However, I also think that the standards to get into college, and what you go for need to be drastically changed. Political indoctrination needs to be gotten rid of. Stupid majors need to be ditched. College should be for real students, who have real ambition, to train for real jobs.

As a conservative I say "This^"

Wait.  You want college to be a place where students train for real jobs?  Isn't that called VoTech?  And, if we get rid of political indoctrination, then what the hell is Bob Jones University and its like going to do?  And while I'm asking questions, what is a "stupid major" and who decides that without coloring the decision process with the political ideology that you seem to want to remove from those universities?


Meh axe the last line of Pipes statement.  There are some majors that are just dumb.  Kill the few majors that drive no marketable skill nor is challenging enough to prove to prospective employers that you are not a dumbass.
 
2014-04-29 09:41:56 AM  

Lucky LaRue: DubtodaIll: Lucky LaRue: Hahahaha!  Yeah.. let's forgive the student loans for all those dumb-f*cks who spent $40k / year going to Columbia's School of Journalism so they could take a $30k/year job writing stories about how taxpayers should pay for their bad decision making.

I thought that was the job of the government to make up for people's bad decisions, at least that's all I ever hear out of Democrats.

To be fair, it was under Republican leadership that taxpayers bailed out the banks.


What?  When that happened (2008), yes the president was Republican, but both the House and the Senate (and therefore, the majority of power) were both Democrat.
 
2014-04-29 09:42:14 AM  
FTFA: Private student loans from banks and other lenders typically come with variable interest rates, which means that borrowers who misunderstand the conditions of the loan can be shocked to find what they owe in the end.


I don't see why anyone who didn't read a contract before signing it is worth discussing. They don't need college anyway to support their McDonalds career.

/Cant fix stupid
 
2014-04-29 09:45:27 AM  
Here's a novel idea:  Instead of people just assuming they will be going to college right after high school, whether they can afford it or not, how about some more actual planning about it? I mean, if you can't afford it then wait. Or do what I did---go into the service for a couple of years and get the educational bonus (which is pretty high for certain MOS's). After you ETS and get into school, find a part time job to keep somewhat of a cash flow, maybe take out some SMALL loans (and apply for grants) and the next thing you know you'll be graduating with little (if any) debt and still be in your early 20's. It's not difficult...so long as you're willing to do a couple of years with Uncle Sam.

And no whining about "but I'm a pacifist!" because, well,. so the fark what?
 
2014-04-29 09:46:12 AM  

ZAZ: We'll forgive your student loans if you join the Army and serve for at least 4 years including tours in Crimea, the Caucasus, Pakistan, and North Korea.

Because my "smite all those bastards who deserve it" policy has been suffering from a lack of manpower.


I say forgive student loans for those who obtain degrees in and work in field in the US in needed skills areas Medical STEM etc.

FREE Medical education for those who upon obtaining their degree in a needed military medical field serve 5 years in the military

All those with degrees in law, puppetry,  womyn and ethnic studies, holistic interpretive dance,, poly sci, pysch, speech, interpersonal communication, drama, theater etc pay up.

Or serve 4 years community service in Detroit, Appalachians, Compton etc.


No free lunches
 
2014-04-29 09:47:01 AM  

Itstoearly: Lucky LaRue: DubtodaIll: Lucky LaRue: Hahahaha!  Yeah.. let's forgive the student loans for all those dumb-f*cks who spent $40k / year going to Columbia's School of Journalism so they could take a $30k/year job writing stories about how taxpayers should pay for their bad decision making.

I thought that was the job of the government to make up for people's bad decisions, at least that's all I ever hear out of Democrats.

To be fair, it was under Republican leadership that taxpayers bailed out the banks.

What?  When that happened (2008), yes the president was Republican, but both the House and the Senate (and therefore, the majority of power) were both Democrat.


I forgot how he veto'd that
 
2014-04-29 09:47:18 AM  

Oliver Twisted: dragonchild: Honest Bender: How about instead, we cultivate a mindset that you don't HAVE to go to college directly from high school and you don't HAVE to be a full time student for 4 years straight.
Meanwhile, secondary education is free in first-world countries.

It's cute how you think "free" works.


A more educated workforce with more disposable income pays for itself in economic activity.
 
2014-04-29 09:48:10 AM  
First stupidmitter, headline has nothing to do with the article.  Second if the headline were correct, they can do that right after all my loans have been forgiven, cause they are much less than student loans are.
 
2014-04-29 09:48:26 AM  

Honest Bender: How about instead, we cultivate a mindset that you don't HAVE to go to college directly from high school and you don't HAVE to be a full time student for 4 years straight.


THIS

My own view is that we need a lot more short courses (like a year) that give people a foundation in a subject, or work placement. I know there's the whole "broadening of minds", but what employers in a lot of fields want is people with a good grounding. They don't want to spend thousands of pounds training someone how to code who will then leave, but they don't need people with a comp sci degree.

And if you just want to broaden your mind (but don't care about having a certificate saying so), just read books and talk to interesting people.
 
2014-04-29 09:48:27 AM  
single payer system for education!
 
2014-04-29 09:48:39 AM  

jshine: Thunderpipes: I am a liberal now. I actually firmly believe that a college education should be cheap, and heavily subsidized by the government.

However, I also think that the standards to get into college, and what you go for need to be drastically changed. Political indoctrination needs to be gotten rid of. Stupid majors need to be ditched. College should be for real students, who have real ambition, to train for real jobs.

Trade schools exist already, and they probably don't have liberal arts requirements (no pesky history classes, for instance). They're very practical.


The problem with that is that those jobs pay much less than most jobs that you can get with your degree.  The median wage for most tradesmen are between $40,000-$55,000.  The STARTING wage for people straight out of college is about $45,000.  Right out of the gate, recent grads make more than welders and are breathing down the neck of plumbers and electricians.  Considering we're comparing people just starting out to journeymen, it's easy to see why kids choose to go to college.  It all boils down to money.
 
2014-04-29 09:49:56 AM  

tricycleracer: Oliver Twisted: dragonchild: Honest Bender: How about instead, we cultivate a mindset that you don't HAVE to go to college directly from high school and you don't HAVE to be a full time student for 4 years straight.
Meanwhile, secondary education is free in first-world countries.

It's cute how you think "free" works.

A more educated workforce with more disposable income pays for itself in economic activity.


A more accurate statement would be those who are educated in meaningful and needed fields of study which pay well.
 
2014-04-29 09:50:06 AM  

Honest Bender: How about instead, we cultivate a mindset that you don't HAVE to go to college directly from high school and you don't HAVE to be a full time student for 4 years straight.

Encourage people to take a year or so to work after high school, save up some money, and work their way through college part time.  It may take more than 4 years, but students will have considerably less debt, they'll appreciate their education more, and they wont be strapped with crippling debt after graduation.


Every year spent flipping burgers is a year of higher salary lost. And that lost year isn't your entry level shiatty salary year (you'll still get one of those when you finally do start on your career track job, no matter when you start), it's the year just before retirement, when you should have accumulated promotions and raises.
 
2014-04-29 09:51:07 AM  

dragonchild: Honest Bender: How about instead, we cultivate a mindset that you don't HAVE to go to college directly from high school and you don't HAVE to be a full time student for 4 years straight.
Meanwhile, secondary education is free in first-world countries.


It is here, too.  *HIGHER* education still costs, and it should.
 
2014-04-29 09:51:17 AM  

rumpelstiltskin: nekom: That's exactly what I'm in favor of. Make them dischargable in bankruptcy like they used to be.

I think that's trickier than it sounds. The original idea was to make some government money available to poor kids, who had to meet poverty guidelines, because what bank is going to lend money to a kid with nothing who's relatives all have nothing as well? That's a nice idea, and we tried it for about 10 years, and realized in 1975 that we weren't really giving loans at all because too many people were just graduating and defaulting. I don't know why they were defaulting; maybe they all had good reasons. In any case, the question became, "Can we afford to just pay grants for poor kids' educations?" and the answer was no, or at least, maybe we can, but we don't want to.


Oh I get that it's tricky, and allowing disadvantaged students to make it to college is a nice goal.  The problem is all that federally backed money has greatly inflated education costs, and they promise kids the moon.  Yeah, I know personal responsibility and all that, but when you sell an 18 year old kid on a masters in cheese appreciation, oh and some extra money for dorm, meals, pizza, books, anything you need!  It's hard to place the blame solely on the kid for making a stupid decision.  So you get a class of people who are just farked six ways from Sunday with a useless degree, 6 figure debt and a collections industry that WILL get as much of that money back as possible.  It's not right.
 
2014-04-29 09:52:04 AM  

BgJonson79: *HIGHER* education still costs, and it should.


no it shouldn't
 
2014-04-29 09:53:04 AM  

llortcM_yllort: jshine: Thunderpipes: I am a liberal now. I actually firmly believe that a college education should be cheap, and heavily subsidized by the government.

However, I also think that the standards to get into college, and what you go for need to be drastically changed. Political indoctrination needs to be gotten rid of. Stupid majors need to be ditched. College should be for real students, who have real ambition, to train for real jobs.

Trade schools exist already, and they probably don't have liberal arts requirements (no pesky history classes, for instance). They're very practical.

The problem with that is that those jobs pay much less than most jobs that you can get with your degree.  The median wage for most tradesmen are between $40,000-$55,000.  The STARTING wage for people straight out of college is about $45,000.  Right out of the gate, recent grads make more than welders and are breathing down the neck of plumbers and electricians.  Considering we're comparing people just starting out to journeymen, it's easy to see why kids choose to go to college.  It all boils down to money.


Not to mention everyone has a hard on for killing unions and reducing apprenticeships.. trade schools are quickly replacing training you use to get paid to take. When you graduate the wages are less too.

some asshole here goes on the news like once a month biatching about how he can't hire welders etc and no one wants a job. Then he spouts off about his companies training program which involves you paying 10k to go to some shady tech school. When you graduate he gauranguarantees he will hire you foR nine an hour.
 
2014-04-29 09:53:29 AM  

Heraclitus: C'mon, the 1% worked hard to enslave the next generation.

They're not going to let them off the hook that easy!


Yup because the 1% forced them to assume $35k in debt for a degree in puppetry, $105K for a degree in speech and interpersonal communication

or $200,000 in debt for a degree in sociology
 
2014-04-29 09:53:30 AM  
Oh, it's this thread again.

"If you didn't go into the exact area of STEM I'm thinking of right now, and didn't predict what the market would be doing four years out, you deserve to be mired in debt for the rest of your life."
 
2014-04-29 09:54:22 AM  

mr lawson: BgJonson79: *HIGHER* education still costs, and it should.

no it shouldn't


Why not?  If you're smart enough to get into college, shouldn't you be smart enough to figure out a way to pay for it?
 
2014-04-29 09:54:33 AM  

nekom: rumpelstiltskin: nekom: That's exactly what I'm in favor of. Make them dischargable in bankruptcy like they used to be.

I think that's trickier than it sounds. The original idea was to make some government money available to poor kids, who had to meet poverty guidelines, because what bank is going to lend money to a kid with nothing who's relatives all have nothing as well? That's a nice idea, and we tried it for about 10 years, and realized in 1975 that we weren't really giving loans at all because too many people were just graduating and defaulting. I don't know why they were defaulting; maybe they all had good reasons. In any case, the question became, "Can we afford to just pay grants for poor kids' educations?" and the answer was no, or at least, maybe we can, but we don't want to.

Oh I get that it's tricky, and allowing disadvantaged students to make it to college is a nice goal.  The problem is all that federally backed money has greatly inflated education costs, and they promise kids the moon.  Yeah, I know personal responsibility and all that, but when you sell an 18 year old kid on a masters in cheese appreciation, oh and some extra money for dorm, meals, pizza, books, anything you need!  It's hard to place the blame solely on the kid for making a stupid decision.  So you get a class of people who are just farked six ways from Sunday with a useless degree, 6 figure debt and a collections industry that WILL get as much of that money back as possible.  It's not right.


How about we just let actuaries and accountants do the analysis?  If you are pursuing a degree that has a reasonable chance of allowing you to pay back your loans, then you get a loan.  If, on the other hand, you want a degree in Cheese Appreciation, then you are on your own.
 
2014-04-29 09:54:54 AM  

Skirl Hutsenreiter: Every year spent flipping burgers is a year of higher salary lost. And that lost year isn't your entry level shiatty salary year (you'll still get one of those when you finally do start on your career track job, no matter when you start), it's the year just before retirement, when you should have accumulated promotions and raises.


I don't know that I'm qualified to intelligently discuss economic theory, but I've played my fair share of 4x games.  An extra year of earning may or may not offset the cost of your loans, but will it offset the hit to your quality due to having lower effective income for years?
 
2014-04-29 09:55:12 AM  

ArkAngel: The problem with making them dischargeable is that many students (especially today with over inflated tuition) are heavily in debt without a job right after graduation. It will make it much harder to get loans.


That's a feature, not a bug.

When it becomes harder to get loans, shiatty schools stop selling useless degrees.
 
2014-04-29 09:56:00 AM  

mr lawson: BgJonson79: *HIGHER* education still costs, and it should.

no it shouldn't


Exactly why should the tax payers finance somebody getting a degree in holistic interpretive dance or Klingon literature?
 
2014-04-29 09:56:30 AM  

Lucky LaRue: Hahahaha!  Yeah.. let's forgive the student loans for all those dumb-f*cks who spent $40k / year going to Columbia's School of Journalism so they could take a $30k/year job writing stories about how taxpayers should pay for their bad decision making.


No, but I would be 100% in favor of ditching the bullshiat contracts that were written during the "privatized" years and setting all existing student loan debt to like a 2% fixed rate and loosen the deferment conditions a bit.
 
2014-04-29 09:57:16 AM  

Lucky LaRue: nekom: rumpelstiltskin: nekom: That's exactly what I'm in favor of. Make them dischargable in bankruptcy like they used to be.

I think that's trickier than it sounds. The original idea was to make some government money available to poor kids, who had to meet poverty guidelines, because what bank is going to lend money to a kid with nothing who's relatives all have nothing as well? That's a nice idea, and we tried it for about 10 years, and realized in 1975 that we weren't really giving loans at all because too many people were just graduating and defaulting. I don't know why they were defaulting; maybe they all had good reasons. In any case, the question became, "Can we afford to just pay grants for poor kids' educations?" and the answer was no, or at least, maybe we can, but we don't want to.

Oh I get that it's tricky, and allowing disadvantaged students to make it to college is a nice goal.  The problem is all that federally backed money has greatly inflated education costs, and they promise kids the moon.  Yeah, I know personal responsibility and all that, but when you sell an 18 year old kid on a masters in cheese appreciation, oh and some extra money for dorm, meals, pizza, books, anything you need!  It's hard to place the blame solely on the kid for making a stupid decision.  So you get a class of people who are just farked six ways from Sunday with a useless degree, 6 figure debt and a collections industry that WILL get as much of that money back as possible.  It's not right.

How about we just let actuaries and accountants do the analysis?  If you are pursuing a degree that has a reasonable chance of allowing you to pay back your loans, then you get a loan.  If, on the other hand, you want a degree in Cheese Appreciation, then you are on your own.


I'd like to see them link accredidation with income and job placement rates. Your psychology department can't manage to graduate people who can get decent jobs? Guess what you can't receive federal student loans anymore.
 
2014-04-29 09:57:20 AM  

hasty ambush: mr lawson: BgJonson79: *HIGHER* education still costs, and it should.

no it shouldn't

Exactly why should the tax payers finance somebody getting a degree in holistic interpretive dance or Klingon literature?


Why should those be considered higher education? ;-)
 
2014-04-29 09:57:22 AM  

hinten: Some of these "students" are actually surprised that when a major piece of collateral (your mother) seizes to exist that the loan might come due immediately?

I suspect these "students" are not learning.


Right, because it is very likely that a person whose parent dies will be unable to continue paying monthly installments but able to pay the whole amount at once.
 
2014-04-29 09:58:46 AM  
Lucky LaRue:
How about we just let actuaries and accountants do the analysis?  If you are pursuing a degree that has a reasonable chance of allowing you to pay back your loans, then you get a loan.  If, on the other hand, you want a degree in Cheese Appreciation, then you are on your own.

That would be pretty helpful, but as long as they are federally backed, fat chance getting the banks to care about them.  If the banks stood to lose money, they'd definitely do due diligence in making sure it's a degree likely to result in the loan getting paid back.
 
2014-04-29 09:59:14 AM  

Sergeant Grumbles: Oh, it's this thread again.

"If you didn't go into the exact area of STEM I'm thinking of right now, and didn't predict what the market would be doing four years out, you deserve to be mired in debt for the rest of your life."


Each of us has a degree of personal responsibility that we need to own up to.  If you go to school for a psychology degree because you think that is your path to making a good living and (four years and $100k)  later find out you made a bad call, then you need to take responsibility for that and not expect society to give you a free do-over.
 
2014-04-29 09:59:58 AM  

BgJonson79: Why should those be considered higher education? ;-)


correct
 
2014-04-29 10:01:40 AM  
first step is to get rid of federally backed student loans
 
2014-04-29 10:01:56 AM  

Lucky LaRue: Sergeant Grumbles: Oh, it's this thread again.

"If you didn't go into the exact area of STEM I'm thinking of right now, and didn't predict what the market would be doing four years out, you deserve to be mired in debt for the rest of your life."

Each of us has a degree of personal responsibility that we need to own up to.  If you go to school for a psychology degree because you think that is your path to making a good living and (four years and $100k)  later find out you made a bad call, then you need to take responsibility for that and not expect society to give you a free do-over.


Not really. Bankruptcy doesn't work like that for anything else. That's one of the great things about this country. You can try things because if you fail hard enough there is a backstop that let's you reset and try again. Some of the most influential people tried and failed badly, but could go bankrupt and try again. Everyone benefits from that. It is bizarre that in this small instance of education we declare that your bad decision is permanent.
 
2014-04-29 10:02:27 AM  

Tricky Chicken: Ok, somebody map out for me who gets screwed out of money with this plan, and let me know how I can ensoure I am in the group that gets the free money?


Sallie Mae, mostly.

The issue is twofold

1) We aren't teaching teenagers any thing about finance, so they have no idea how a interest works, AND we're telling them they have to go to college or they'll end up in a ditch.

2) Banks will lend students $150,000 to study "undecided" because the student will pay on that loan until they die, and they know it.

So. Three suggestions:

1) Let's teach finance to high school students BEFORE they start looking at colleges, and encourage more students to do part time community college.

2)  Allow student loans to be dischargeable in bankruptcy starting 5 years after graduation.

3) Remove federal funding from any school who's Cohort Default Rate is over 20% for more than 5 years. I'm looking at you, University of Pheonix, with your 37% default rate for the last 15 years.
 
2014-04-29 10:02:29 AM  

Sergeant Grumbles: Oh, it's this thread again.

"If you didn't go into the exact area of STEM I'm thinking of right now, and didn't predict what the market would be doing four years out, you deserve to be mired in debt for the rest of your life."


If you pick a degree that a lot of people have, and up having skills that a lot of people have, doesn't that mean you'll get a job that a lot of people have, and therefore be on the wrong side of the supply/demand ratio when it comes to negotiating salary?
 
2014-04-29 10:03:09 AM  

SpectroBoy: Thunderpipes: This is beyond stupid. Why should a social worker or school teacher, who doesn't even need college to be honest, get a freebie, while a business owner have to pay the bills?

So your position is that the teachers who teach our children don't need college?

Really?!?


This is Fark. Everyone knows that they only majors that should exist are the ones that lead to very high paying jobs.
 
2014-04-29 10:03:28 AM  

NickelP: Lucky LaRue: Sergeant Grumbles: Oh, it's this thread again.

"If you didn't go into the exact area of STEM I'm thinking of right now, and didn't predict what the market would be doing four years out, you deserve to be mired in debt for the rest of your life."

Each of us has a degree of personal responsibility that we need to own up to.  If you go to school for a psychology degree because you think that is your path to making a good living and (four years and $100k)  later find out you made a bad call, then you need to take responsibility for that and not expect society to give you a free do-over.

Not really. Bankruptcy doesn't work like that for anything else. That's one of the great things about this country. You can try things because if you fail hard enough there is a backstop that let's you reset and try again. Some of the most influential people tried and failed badly, but could go bankrupt and try again. Everyone benefits from that. It is bizarre that in this small instance of education we declare that your bad decision is permanent.


When you go bankrupt with other things, there are assets the creditor can get back.  What can they get back for a failed education?
 
2014-04-29 10:04:20 AM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: Let those who go into business or law pay their loans.  Those who are ground-level contributors to society should, after four or five years verifiably working in a high-need social area, should get a large portion of their loan forgiven.  It makes sense.  But the government HAS to follow through.

Virginia has a program that allowed elementary school teachers in impoverished counties to, after five years, get a payoff of 5 to 7,000 dollars on their student loan.  I worked in the area for three years, at which point the state abandoned the program entirely.

Thanks, guys.


That exists and it's called the Public Service Loan Forgiveness plan, but it's only for federal loans.
 
2014-04-29 10:04:31 AM  

BgJonson79: If you pick a degree that a lot of people have, and up having skills that a lot of people have, doesn't that mean you'll get a job that a lot of people have, and therefore be on the wrong side of the supply/demand ratio when it comes to negotiating salary?

 
2014-04-29 10:05:28 AM  
So what do the 20-somethings who actually paid off their student loans ($40k here) get?
 
2014-04-29 10:06:06 AM  

BgJonson79: NickelP: Lucky LaRue: Sergeant Grumbles: Oh, it's this thread again.

"If you didn't go into the exact area of STEM I'm thinking of right now, and didn't predict what the market would be doing four years out, you deserve to be mired in debt for the rest of your life."

Each of us has a degree of personal responsibility that we need to own up to.  If you go to school for a psychology degree because you think that is your path to making a good living and (four years and $100k)  later find out you made a bad call, then you need to take responsibility for that and not expect society to give you a free do-over.

Not really. Bankruptcy doesn't work like that for anything else. That's one of the great things about this country. You can try things because if you fail hard enough there is a backstop that let's you reset and try again. Some of the most influential people tried and failed badly, but could go bankrupt and try again. Everyone benefits from that. It is bizarre that in this small instance of education we declare that your bad decision is permanent.

When you go bankrupt with other things, there are assets the creditor can get back.  What can they get back for a failed education?


Not all debt is secured. The student loan people and divy up whatever you have like the credit card people.
 
2014-04-29 10:06:42 AM  

mr lawson: first step is to get rid of federally backed student loans


I wonder what would happen if we did get rid of federal backing.  I am guessing that we'd have a situation similar to what I was ad-libbing about earlier - the banks would let accountants and actuarials decide which degrees are a good bet, which would be good, I suppose.  But, then all the liberal arts degrees (like English, History, Art, Music, Philosophy, etc.al) would be the realm of the wealthy who could afford university on their own, and I don't think I would want to live in a society so clearly delineated by the haves and the have-nots.
 
2014-04-29 10:06:53 AM  

Imperialism: So what do the 20-somethings who actually paid off their student loans ($40k here) get?


smugness and a hot cocoa box sampler
 
2014-04-29 10:08:04 AM  

Imperialism: So what do the 20-somethings who actually paid off their student loans ($40k here) get?


Well, you don't get to go through a bankruptcy. Just like the people who's businesses DIDN'T fail, and those people who DIDN'T lose their house.

You also get an economy where people aren't struggling to cover the loan first, and not spending money on anything else, like whatever good or service you provide.
 
2014-04-29 10:08:12 AM  

Lucky LaRue: But, then all the liberal arts degrees (like English, History, Art, Music, Philosophy, etc.al) would be the realm of the wealthy who could afford university on their own, and I don't think I would want to live in a society so clearly delineated by the haves and the have-nots.


self correcting...those jobs don't pay well, hence the haves will soon become the have nots.
 
2014-04-29 10:08:59 AM  

Lucky LaRue: mr lawson: first step is to get rid of federally backed student loans

I wonder what would happen if we did get rid of federal backing.  I am guessing that we'd have a situation similar to what I was ad-libbing about earlier - the banks would let accountants and actuarials decide which degrees are a good bet, which would be good, I suppose.  But, then all the liberal arts degrees (like English, History, Art, Music, Philosophy, etc.al) would be the realm of the wealthy who could afford university on their own, and I don't think I would want to live in a society so clearly delineated by the haves and the have-nots.


If some of the federal subsidy was shifted to ability based scholarships it would help that. Let those that have demonstrated a gift for music or stage study the arts for example for free. If you barely slugged through hs then sorry you need to pay
 
2014-04-29 10:10:29 AM  
And how many people here really need those 4 years of college? I don't. I got my degree well after I made my way up the chain. It really is just a piece of paper. Most jobs, this is the case. You could learn more with 6 months of a real internship than 4 years of college.

I really wish we could get back to this system a little more. A teacher for instance, has to get more and more advanced degrees for pay raises? Why?

Do we need female studies, and stupid crap like that? Does an economics major need history, sociology, art? College is a racket, for the most part. But, you need that silly piece of paper.
 
2014-04-29 10:10:43 AM  

NickelP: Lucky LaRue: mr lawson: first step is to get rid of federally backed student loans

I wonder what would happen if we did get rid of federal backing.  I am guessing that we'd have a situation similar to what I was ad-libbing about earlier - the banks would let accountants and actuarials decide which degrees are a good bet, which would be good, I suppose.  But, then all the liberal arts degrees (like English, History, Art, Music, Philosophy, etc.al) would be the realm of the wealthy who could afford university on their own, and I don't think I would want to live in a society so clearly delineated by the haves and the have-nots.

If some of the federal subsidy was shifted to ability based scholarships it would help that. Let those that have demonstrated a gift for music or stage study the arts for example for free. If you barely slugged through hs then sorry you need to pay


If you barely slugged through HS history, why are you in higher education?
 
2014-04-29 10:12:22 AM  

BgJonson79: NickelP: Lucky LaRue: mr lawson: first step is to get rid of federally backed student loans

I wonder what would happen if we did get rid of federal backing.  I am guessing that we'd have a situation similar to what I was ad-libbing about earlier - the banks would let accountants and actuarials decide which degrees are a good bet, which would be good, I suppose.  But, then all the liberal arts degrees (like English, History, Art, Music, Philosophy, etc.al) would be the realm of the wealthy who could afford university on their own, and I don't think I would want to live in a society so clearly delineated by the haves and the have-nots.

If some of the federal subsidy was shifted to ability based scholarships it would help that. Let those that have demonstrated a gift for music or stage study the arts for example for free. If you barely slugged through hs then sorry you need to pay

If you barely slugged through HS history, why are you in higher education?


They probably shouldn't be but here we are.
 
2014-04-29 10:12:29 AM  

Thunderpipes: Does an economics major need history, sociology, art?


not the art part, but the other two would help a lot!
/B.S. Econ
 
2014-04-29 10:13:18 AM  
As an engineer, I'm not that wild about the idea of driving over a bridge that was designed by an engineer that otherwise would have been a journalism major but decided to go into engineering for the money.
 
2014-04-29 10:13:26 AM  

mr lawson: Imperialism: So what do the 20-somethings who actually paid off their student loans ($40k here) get?

smugness and a hot cocoa box sampler


You drive a hard bargain, sir, but I'll take it.
 
2014-04-29 10:13:37 AM  
BgJonson79:
When you go bankrupt with other things, there are assets the creditor can get back.  What can they get back for a failed education?

Sometimes there are.  But if you're a no asset case, you literally walk away from any and all debt.  Except student loans, taxes and I think certain kinds of lawsuits (i.e. a fatal DUI).  It doesn't matter if you owe $60,000 or $250,000.  Poof.  It's gone.
 
2014-04-29 10:15:20 AM  

Hollie Maea: As an engineer, I'm not that wild about the idea of driving over a bridge that was designed by an engineer that otherwise would have been a journalism major but decided to go into engineering for the money.


they still would have to pass the courses.
 
2014-04-29 10:15:55 AM  

NickelP: Lucky LaRue: mr lawson: first step is to get rid of federally backed student loans

I wonder what would happen if we did get rid of federal backing.  I am guessing that we'd have a situation similar to what I was ad-libbing about earlier - the banks would let accountants and actuarials decide which degrees are a good bet, which would be good, I suppose.  But, then all the liberal arts degrees (like English, History, Art, Music, Philosophy, etc.al) would be the realm of the wealthy who could afford university on their own, and I don't think I would want to live in a society so clearly delineated by the haves and the have-nots.

If some of the federal subsidy was shifted to ability based scholarships it would help that. Let those that have demonstrated a gift for music or stage study the arts for example for free. If you barely slugged through hs then sorry you need to pay


Yeah - I agree that we need a lot more merit-based scholarship programs.  I'd go so far as to argue for a tiered-based primary and secondary education system.  If (for example) after grade 5 you demonstrate an ability to go to university, then you go to a secondary education system that prepares you for that.  If, on the other hand, your aptitude is more in line with auto repair, then you go through a secondary educational system that prepares you for that.

The drawback to this, of course, is that I would have been sent to ditch-digging school.
 
2014-04-29 10:17:38 AM  

Thunderpipes: And how many people here really need those 4 years of college? I don't. I got my degree well after I made my way up the chain. It really is just a piece of paper. Most jobs, this is the case. You could learn more with 6 months of a real internship than 4 years of college.

I really wish we could get back to this system a little more. A teacher for instance, has to get more and more advanced degrees for pay raises? Why?

Do we need female studies, and stupid crap like that? Does an economics major need history, sociology, art? College is a racket, for the most part. But, you need that silly piece of paper.


Don't you take home ec in 8th grade?
 
2014-04-29 10:17:49 AM  

Thunderpipes: And how many people here really need those 4 years of college? I don't. I got my degree well after I made my way up the chain. It really is just a piece of paper. Most jobs, this is the case. You could learn more with 6 months of a real internship than 4 years of college.

I really wish we could get back to this system a little more. A teacher for instance, has to get more and more advanced degrees for pay raises? Why?


Go one thread down and how HR depts are ....... full of challenged people.  A degree is a way for the HR dept to shift out the morans.  HR has gotten so lazy that they are unwilling to sort out the morans and are moving on to requiring more degrees to act as another level of sorting.
 
2014-04-29 10:18:35 AM  

Lucky LaRue: I don't think I would want to live in a society so clearly delineated by the haves and the have-nots.


You already are.  It's just those with a college education mortgaged their future to have one in the first place.
 
2014-04-29 10:18:47 AM  

mr lawson: Hollie Maea: As an engineer, I'm not that wild about the idea of driving over a bridge that was designed by an engineer that otherwise would have been a journalism major but decided to go into engineering for the money.

they still would have to pass the courses.


If they didn't, would you advocate forgiving the loans they incurred in their failed attempt? Because in this thread, everyone is saying people should become STEM majors so they can pay back their student loans.
 
2014-04-29 10:19:50 AM  

mr lawson: Thunderpipes: Does an economics major need history, sociology, art?

not the art part, but the other two would help a lot!
/B.S. Econ


Computer science here. I think about 30% of my courses were simple requirements that has to be checked off, that really had nothing to do with my major. I suspect this is the case everywhere. Maybe things have changed, but all the courses I took were all simple textbook learning stuff. Some helped, but most, no. Not nearly enough about the real world. I could walk into a college campus right now, and teach a computer science major more than any prof I ever encounter,ed by relating things that happen in a real job/company and what they will likely really need to know in a future job.

We need more courses and programs thought by actual people with experience in the job field. We need programs taught with that in mind. More partnerships with business.
 
2014-04-29 10:20:49 AM  

Hollie Maea: SpectroBoy: Thunderpipes: This is beyond stupid. Why should a social worker or school teacher, who doesn't even need college to be honest, get a freebie, while a business owner have to pay the bills?

So your position is that the teachers who teach our children don't need college?

Really?!?

This is Fark. Everyone knows that they only majors that should exist are the ones that lead to very high paying jobs.


Those and others that while not high paying have a tangible benefit to the tax payer are the only ones they should be on the tax payer should be on the hook for.  You want to follow your bliss do it on your dime.
 
2014-04-29 10:22:50 AM  

Lucky LaRue: mr lawson: first step is to get rid of federally backed student loans

I wonder what would happen if we did get rid of federal backing.  I am guessing that we'd have a situation similar to what I was ad-libbing about earlier - the banks would let accountants and actuarials decide which degrees are a good bet, which would be good, I suppose.  But, then all the liberal arts degrees (like English, History, Art, Music, Philosophy, etc.al) would be the realm of the wealthy who could afford university on their own, and I don't think I would want to live in a society so clearly delineated by the haves and the have-nots.


So, no meritocracies then?
 
2014-04-29 10:23:35 AM  

lack of warmth: I've also met teachers, who were the dumbest people I ever met, I'm still not sure what teachers actually learn in college.


I've met doctors and lawyers who were amongst the dumbest people I've ever met.  Stupidity holds no occupational bounds.
 
2014-04-29 10:23:36 AM  

llortcM_yllort: jshine: Thunderpipes: I am a liberal now. I actually firmly believe that a college education should be cheap, and heavily subsidized by the government.

However, I also think that the standards to get into college, and what you go for need to be drastically changed. Political indoctrination needs to be gotten rid of. Stupid majors need to be ditched. College should be for real students, who have real ambition, to train for real jobs.

Trade schools exist already, and they probably don't have liberal arts requirements (no pesky history classes, for instance). They're very practical.

The problem with that is that those jobs pay much less than most jobs that you can get with your degree.  The median wage for most tradesmen are between $40,000-$55,000.  The STARTING wage for people straight out of college is about $45,000.  Right out of the gate, recent grads make more than welders and are breathing down the neck of plumbers and electricians.  Considering we're comparing people just starting out to journeymen, it's easy to see why kids choose to go to college.  It all boils down to money.



The changes that Thunderpipes proposed basically amounted to turning universities into trade schools.  Those schools already exist.  If the market has decided that the pay in those professions is where you say it is, then that's just the free market making its decisions.  If having the word "university" appended to the name on the degree (as opposed to the diversified curriculum itself) really is what makes the difference in salary, then there's nothing stopping any school from naming themselves anything they want today.
 
2014-04-29 10:25:39 AM  

hasty ambush: Hollie Maea: SpectroBoy: Thunderpipes: This is beyond stupid. Why should a social worker or school teacher, who doesn't even need college to be honest, get a freebie, while a business owner have to pay the bills?

So your position is that the teachers who teach our children don't need college?

Really?!?

This is Fark. Everyone knows that they only majors that should exist are the ones that lead to very high paying jobs.

Those and others that while not high paying have a tangible benefit to the tax payer are the only ones they should be on the tax payer should be on the hook for.  You want to follow your bliss do it on your dime.


The problem is that a good half of the country consists of idiots who think that things like social workers are useless.
 
2014-04-29 10:27:28 AM  

Hollie Maea: hasty ambush: Hollie Maea: SpectroBoy: Thunderpipes: This is beyond stupid. Why should a social worker or school teacher, who doesn't even need college to be honest, get a freebie, while a business owner have to pay the bills?

So your position is that the teachers who teach our children don't need college?

Really?!?

This is Fark. Everyone knows that they only majors that should exist are the ones that lead to very high paying jobs.

Those and others that while not high paying have a tangible benefit to the tax payer are the only ones they should be on the tax payer should be on the hook for.  You want to follow your bliss do it on your dime.

The problem is that a good half of the country consists of idiots who think that things like social workers are useless.


Should social work be a four-year degree?
 
2014-04-29 10:27:50 AM  
nicholasjacob.files.wordpress.com
24.media.tumblr.com
 
2014-04-29 10:28:17 AM  

BgJonson79: Lucky LaRue: mr lawson: first step is to get rid of federally backed student loans

I wonder what would happen if we did get rid of federal backing.  I am guessing that we'd have a situation similar to what I was ad-libbing about earlier - the banks would let accountants and actuarials decide which degrees are a good bet, which would be good, I suppose.  But, then all the liberal arts degrees (like English, History, Art, Music, Philosophy, etc.al) would be the realm of the wealthy who could afford university on their own, and I don't think I would want to live in a society so clearly delineated by the haves and the have-nots.

So, no meritocracies then?


What's your definition of merit?  Because if you're equating a family having money with their merit, you need your head examined.
 
2014-04-29 10:29:36 AM  

Khellendros: BgJonson79: Lucky LaRue: mr lawson: first step is to get rid of federally backed student loans

I wonder what would happen if we did get rid of federal backing.  I am guessing that we'd have a situation similar to what I was ad-libbing about earlier - the banks would let accountants and actuarials decide which degrees are a good bet, which would be good, I suppose.  But, then all the liberal arts degrees (like English, History, Art, Music, Philosophy, etc.al) would be the realm of the wealthy who could afford university on their own, and I don't think I would want to live in a society so clearly delineated by the haves and the have-nots.

So, no meritocracies then?

What's your definition of merit?  Because if you're equating a family having money with their merit, you need your head examined.


If you're smart enough to get into college, shouldn't you be smart enough to get a job that'll let you pay back your loans without issue?
 
2014-04-29 10:29:49 AM  

BgJonson79: Should social work be a four-year degree?


That depends on whether you want to teach your social workers "do this" vs. "do this, because of these reasons".  In the former case, probably not; in the latter case, probably yes.

/ I'm not saying there's a right & wrong answer.  It's a judgement-call.
 
2014-04-29 10:30:52 AM  

BgJonson79: If you're smart enough to get into college, shouldn't you be smart enough to get a job that'll let you pay back your loans without issue?


Strangely enough, it's far easier to acquire debt than it is to pay it off.  Who'd a thunk it?
 
2014-04-29 10:30:54 AM  

Thunderpipes: mr lawson: Thunderpipes: Does an economics major need history, sociology, art?

not the art part, but the other two would help a lot!
/B.S. Econ

Computer science here. I think about 30% of my courses were simple requirements that has to be checked off, that really had nothing to do with my major. I suspect this is the case everywhere. Maybe things have changed, but all the courses I took were all simple textbook learning stuff. Some helped, but most, no. Not nearly enough about the real world. I could walk into a college campus right now, and teach a computer science major more than any prof I ever encounter,ed by relating things that happen in a real job/company and what they will likely really need to know in a future job.

We need more courses and programs thought by actual people with experience in the job field. We need programs taught with that in mind. More partnerships with business.


I agree 100%.  The best professors I had were the adjuncts that did that shiat for a living and wanted to teach a class or so because they enjoyed it.  Meanwhile they always got pissed on for promotions etc in favor of people who hated teaching, had 0 experience, but could write obscure theoretical papers about shiat that is 5 layers removed from anything that happens in the real world.

I'm not saying don't teach theory, but the people who are teaching theory need to be able to relate it back to how things really are done.  That seems particularly lacking a lot of the time.
 
2014-04-29 10:32:12 AM  
NO!!!  I don't think they know what "forgive" means...    I want someone to forgive my mortgage payments!
 
2014-04-29 10:32:56 AM  
BgJonson79:

Should social work be a four-year degree?

Yeah, it should.  A bad social worker is worse than no social worker.

Of course most people on here think that being a social worker is a "no brainer" that only requires "common sense", but that's only because they are idiots.
 
2014-04-29 10:33:19 AM  

jshine: BgJonson79: If you're smart enough to get into college, shouldn't you be smart enough to get a job that'll let you pay back your loans without issue?

Strangely enough, it's far easier to acquire debt than it is to pay it off.  Who'd a thunk it?


True story ;-)
 
2014-04-29 10:34:18 AM  

Hollie Maea: BgJonson79:

Should social work be a four-year degree?

Yeah, it should.  A bad social worker is worse than no social worker.

Of course most people on here think that being a social worker is a "no brainer" that only requires "common sense", but that's only because they are idiots.


I have serious doubts it's harder than fluid dynamics or differential equations.  That said, I 100% agree with your first sentence.
 
2014-04-29 10:34:58 AM  

jshine: BgJonson79: Should social work be a four-year degree?

That depends on whether you want to teach your social workers "do this" vs. "do this, because of these reasons".  In the former case, probably not; in the latter case, probably yes.

/ I'm not saying there's a right & wrong answer.  It's a judgement-call.


I absolutely agree RE: judgement call.
 
2014-04-29 10:37:16 AM  

jshine: llortcM_yllort: jshine: Thunderpipes: I am a liberal now. I actually firmly believe that a college education should be cheap, and heavily subsidized by the government.

However, I also think that the standards to get into college, and what you go for need to be drastically changed. Political indoctrination needs to be gotten rid of. Stupid majors need to be ditched. College should be for real students, who have real ambition, to train for real jobs.

Trade schools exist already, and they probably don't have liberal arts requirements (no pesky history classes, for instance). They're very practical.

The problem with that is that those jobs pay much less than most jobs that you can get with your degree.  The median wage for most tradesmen are between $40,000-$55,000.  The STARTING wage for people straight out of college is about $45,000.  Right out of the gate, recent grads make more than welders and are breathing down the neck of plumbers and electricians.  Considering we're comparing people just starting out to journeymen, it's easy to see why kids choose to go to college.  It all boils down to money.


The changes that Thunderpipes proposed basically amounted to turning universities into trade schools.  Those schools already exist.  If the market has decided that the pay in those professions is where you say it is, then that's just the free market making its decisions.  If having the word "university" appended to the name on the degree (as opposed to the diversified curriculum itself) really is what makes the difference in salary, then there's nothing stopping any school from naming themselves anything they want today.


No, the difference is that, for a variety of reasons, the pay of office jobs and jobs that require degrees have outpaced the trades.  It's not that trade schools don't call themselves "universities," it's just that programmers get paid more than electricians so lo and behold more people become programmers.  Like you said, the free market has made it's choice and students are responding by avoiding the trades.

People don't go to trade schools because the money isn't there.  More people flocking to those schools certainly won't help that.
 
2014-04-29 10:37:23 AM  

BgJonson79: If you're smart enough to get into college, shouldn't you be smart enough to get a job that'll let you pay back your loans without issue?


Again, what's your definition of merit?  Because this statement has no relation to creating a meritocracy.
 
2014-04-29 10:37:25 AM  

NickelP: Thunderpipes: mr lawson: Thunderpipes: Does an economics major need history, sociology, art?

not the art part, but the other two would help a lot!
/B.S. Econ

Computer science here. I think about 30% of my courses were simple requirements that has to be checked off, that really had nothing to do with my major. I suspect this is the case everywhere. Maybe things have changed, but all the courses I took were all simple textbook learning stuff. Some helped, but most, no. Not nearly enough about the real world. I could walk into a college campus right now, and teach a computer science major more than any prof I ever encounter,ed by relating things that happen in a real job/company and what they will likely really need to know in a future job.

We need more courses and programs thought by actual people with experience in the job field. We need programs taught with that in mind. More partnerships with business.

I agree 100%.  The best professors I had were the adjuncts that did that shiat for a living and wanted to teach a class or so because they enjoyed it.  Meanwhile they always got pissed on for promotions etc in favor of people who hated teaching, had 0 experience, but could write obscure theoretical papers about shiat that is 5 layers removed from anything that happens in the real world.

I'm not saying don't teach theory, but the people who are teaching theory need to be able to relate it back to how things really are done.  That seems particularly lacking a lot of the time.


Heh, my college's motto was German for "theory and practice."
 
2014-04-29 10:38:38 AM  

llortcM_yllort: jshine: llortcM_yllort: jshine: Thunderpipes: I am a liberal now. I actually firmly believe that a college education should be cheap, and heavily subsidized by the government.

However, I also think that the standards to get into college, and what you go for need to be drastically changed. Political indoctrination needs to be gotten rid of. Stupid majors need to be ditched. College should be for real students, who have real ambition, to train for real jobs.

Trade schools exist already, and they probably don't have liberal arts requirements (no pesky history classes, for instance). They're very practical.

The problem with that is that those jobs pay much less than most jobs that you can get with your degree.  The median wage for most tradesmen are between $40,000-$55,000.  The STARTING wage for people straight out of college is about $45,000.  Right out of the gate, recent grads make more than welders and are breathing down the neck of plumbers and electricians.  Considering we're comparing people just starting out to journeymen, it's easy to see why kids choose to go to college.  It all boils down to money.


The changes that Thunderpipes proposed basically amounted to turning universities into trade schools.  Those schools already exist.  If the market has decided that the pay in those professions is where you say it is, then that's just the free market making its decisions.  If having the word "university" appended to the name on the degree (as opposed to the diversified curriculum itself) really is what makes the difference in salary, then there's nothing stopping any school from naming themselves anything they want today.

No, the difference is that, for a variety of reasons, the pay of office jobs and jobs that require degrees have outpaced the trades.  It's not that trade schools don't call themselves "universities," it's just that programmers get paid more than electricians so lo and behold more people become programmers.  Like you said, the free market has ...


I agree.
 
2014-04-29 10:39:09 AM  

Honest Bender: How about instead, we cultivate a mindset that you don't HAVE to go to college directly from high school and you don't HAVE to be a full time student for 4 years straight.

Encourage people to take a year or so to work after high school, save up some money, and work their way through college part time.  It may take more than 4 years, but students will have considerably less debt, they'll appreciate their education more, and they wont be strapped with crippling debt after graduation.


padresteve.files.wordpress.com
/dnrtfa
/know what you are signing & pay your freaking bills - just like farmer Bundy should pay his bills too.
/third & unrelated slashie
 
2014-04-29 10:39:19 AM  

BgJonson79: Hollie Maea: BgJonson79:

Should social work be a four-year degree?

Yeah, it should.  A bad social worker is worse than no social worker.

Of course most people on here think that being a social worker is a "no brainer" that only requires "common sense", but that's only because they are idiots.

I have serious doubts it's harder than fluid dynamics or differential equations.  That said, I 100% agree with your first sentence.


its just not the same kind of work.  It is hard in a different way.  While an engineer may be use to working on problems that have logical paths that require a great deal of education to get the correct answer, many other fields have no correct answer.  That doesn't indicate more education and preparation wouldn't let the workers achieve better answers and results though.
 
2014-04-29 10:39:20 AM  

BgJonson79: Heh, my college's motto was German for "theory and practice."


In theory, theory & practice are the same, but in practice they're not.
 
2014-04-29 10:40:24 AM  

BgJonson79: Hollie Maea: BgJonson79:

Should social work be a four-year degree?

Yeah, it should.  A bad social worker is worse than no social worker.

Of course most people on here think that being a social worker is a "no brainer" that only requires "common sense", but that's only because they are idiots.

I have serious doubts it's harder than fluid dynamics or differential equations.  That said, I 100% agree with your first sentence.


Oh, it's definitely not harder than those. But there is enough that you need to know to do it right that it warrants a four year degree. In general, the last two years is mostly practicum anyway.

I'm an engineer, not a social worker.  I just brought up social worker because it a good example of a degree that Farkers love to characterize as useless.  The "puppetry" and "underwater basket weaving" degrees are just strawman that are not worth responding to.
 
2014-04-29 10:41:12 AM  

dragonchild: Honest Bender: How about instead, we cultivate a mindset that you don't HAVE to go to college directly from high school and you don't HAVE to be a full time student for 4 years straight.
Meanwhile, secondary education is free in first-world countries.


meanwhile, fark you. pay your freaking bills.
 
2014-04-29 10:41:55 AM  

BgJonson79: Thunderpipes: And how many people here really need those 4 years of college? I don't. I got my degree well after I made my way up the chain. It really is just a piece of paper. Most jobs, this is the case. You could learn more with 6 months of a real internship than 4 years of college.

I really wish we could get back to this system a little more. A teacher for instance, has to get more and more advanced degrees for pay raises? Why?

Do we need female studies, and stupid crap like that? Does an economics major need history, sociology, art? College is a racket, for the most part. But, you need that silly piece of paper.

Don't you take home ec in 8th grade?


I did, we learned how to make cookies and sew a gym bag together. Neither of which I need or could not have learned at home.
 
2014-04-29 10:43:26 AM  

Khellendros: BgJonson79: If you're smart enough to get into college, shouldn't you be smart enough to get a job that'll let you pay back your loans without issue?

Again, what's your definition of merit?  Because this statement has no relation to creating a meritocracy.


Intelligence, ability and talent?
 
2014-04-29 10:49:40 AM  

BgJonson79: Khellendros: BgJonson79: If you're smart enough to get into college, shouldn't you be smart enough to get a job that'll let you pay back your loans without issue?

Again, what's your definition of merit?  Because this statement has no relation to creating a meritocracy.

Intelligence, ability and talent?


Now, go back to the statement you responded to with your meritocracy question.  An intelligent person studying art, history, philosophy, etc, may not be able to get a great job.  But should the cost of that education be so high that pursuit of humanities can ONLY be pursued by idle rich kids, because they can support it?  There's no merit in that.  And it leave the humanities to only those with money, not those with creative ability, talent, or intelligence.

So, in a real meritocracy, even the poor should be able to pursue the humanities if they have the talent and ability to do so, and not be crushed by debt and misery because of it.  Using students as profit centers is a model for intellectual disaster.
 
2014-04-29 10:59:35 AM  

Khellendros: BgJonson79: Khellendros: BgJonson79: If you're smart enough to get into college, shouldn't you be smart enough to get a job that'll let you pay back your loans without issue?

Again, what's your definition of merit?  Because this statement has no relation to creating a meritocracy.

Intelligence, ability and talent?

Now, go back to the statement you responded to with your meritocracy question.  An intelligent person studying art, history, philosophy, etc, may not be able to get a great job.  But should the cost of that education be so high that pursuit of humanities can ONLY be pursued by idle rich kids, because they can support it?  There's no merit in that.  And it leave the humanities to only those with money, not those with creative ability, talent, or intelligence.

So, in a real meritocracy, even the poor should be able to pursue the humanities if they have the talent and ability to do so, and not be crushed by debt and misery because of it.  Using students as profit centers is a model for intellectual disaster.


Art, philosophy, history can all be studied in a person's spare time, at no cost. By their very nature, those topics should be studied alone.

I like drinking beer and riding dirt bikes. Should there be a college major devoted to those things, and me getting free cash to do it? Sadly, I have to not drink nearly enough beer and dirt bikes are sidelined right now, because of work and family. Not fair!
 
2014-04-29 11:00:43 AM  
Why not discharge some/all debt to people that participate in something like americorps,peace corp or even the military, but then again most people in the military can use the GI Bill. Still think Mike Rowe should be stuff trade schools in our faces more and more. Wish I went to one.
 
2014-04-29 11:04:50 AM  

groppet: Why not discharge some/all debt to people that participate in something like americorps,peace corp or even the military, but then again most people in the military can use the GI Bill. Still think Mike Rowe should be stuff trade schools in our faces more and more. Wish I went to one.


Because why? Why should the damn Peace Corp of all things be given cash? How about those that get a job, and pay positive federal taxes get a break for once? I had to pay my way, partial loans, partial out of pocket. because I was working and making too much money, I get no relief, cannot even deduct tuition expenses. But you want some Moonbeam hippie studying basketweaving to go teach basketball in Africa to get free money?

I think we should do the opposite. Those that get a job, become productive get a benefit, those that don't have to suffer. Maybe it will discourage stupid majors and career choices.
 
2014-04-29 11:07:31 AM  
.

Mass forgiveness of student loans is a TERRIBLE idea.  The supply of loanable funds would disappear.


Lending for student loans (both public lending and private lending) would come to a complete halt.  Why would lenders want to lend when they know that the loan can just be forgiven and eliminated?  That adds HUGE risk for the lender and incentives students to borrow and never repay.

The reason that student loans are often NOT forgiven in bankruptcy is that the lender can't repossess any collateral.  If you go bankrupt, lenders can foreclose your home, repo your car, but they can't recoup losses from education loans.  They can't take away your college knowledge.
 
2014-04-29 11:08:20 AM  
Education is an investment.  It irks me that I have to pay 8% to finance a graduate degree, all so I can get a better job which will put me in a higher tax bracket.  So I pay interest to the government in order to pay more in taxes to the government.

But how about this, next time the bakers screw up and we need to hand them a trillion bucks, let's horse trade for student loan forgiveness.  They're gonna get the money anyways, let's get at least something for the common man out of it.
 
2014-04-29 11:10:13 AM  

Champion of the Sun


But how about this, next time the bakers screw up and we need to hand them a trillion bucks


That's a lot of bread.
 
2014-04-29 11:11:00 AM  
Yeah lets teach kids that being irresponsible is a good thing.  Sure I am going to go out and get an education I cannot pay for.  Why not just get a house I cannot afford, while I am at it why not get a car I cannot afford.  Make the American people pay for luxuries I want but cannot afford.  HERE IS A HINT.  YOU are ruining America if you are getting things you cannot afford.
 
2014-04-29 11:14:04 AM  

Thunderpipes: Art, philosophy, history can all be studied in a person's spare time, at no cost. By their very nature, those topics should be studied alone.


"By their very nature".... so glad we have you, the center of culture and education in the world today, to determine the "nature" of subjects that should be studied on your own in spare time.  How about if we do the same thing with science, math, engineering, business, and law?  You can get those from a book, too.  No reason to go to school for them.

Humanities and the arts are fundamental to society and civilization.  Funding them at their base level - schooling - is essential.  And this is coming from a guy with a physics degree that that works in the aerospace industry.  Just because you can't derive massive revenue streams from them on the first order doesn't mean they're not useful, nor should people attain higher degrees in them.
 
2014-04-29 11:15:27 AM  
How about we just start off by making 100% of student loan interest tax deductible with no income caps?
 
2014-04-29 11:16:59 AM  

Khellendros: Thunderpipes: Art, philosophy, history can all be studied in a person's spare time, at no cost. By their very nature, those topics should be studied alone.

"By their very nature".... so glad we have you, the center of culture and education in the world today, to determine the "nature" of subjects that should be studied on your own in spare time.  How about if we do the same thing with science, math, engineering, business, and law?  You can get those from a book, too.  No reason to go to school for them.

Humanities and the arts are fundamental to society and civilization.  Funding them at their base level - schooling - is essential.  And this is coming from a guy with a physics degree that that works in the aerospace industry.  Just because you can't derive massive revenue streams from them on the first order doesn't mean they're not useful, nor should people attain higher degrees in them.


Because Math, science, etc. will lead to, in general, people getting jobs and paying back into the system. I don't think the public should be funding people's hobbies.

Can shove culture up your butt, that doesn't pay the bills. That is just the stupid card that liberals pull because they want to think they are above others because they look at some nude paintings. Yes, I took philosophy and art, and it was interesting. But ultimately, who gives a crap?
 
2014-04-29 11:18:01 AM  

Spudsy1: Yeah lets teach kids that being irresponsible is a good thing.  Sure I am going to go out and get an education I cannot pay for.  Why not just get a house I cannot afford, while I am at it why not get a car I cannot afford.  Make the American people pay for luxuries I want but cannot afford.  HERE IS A HINT.  YOU are ruining America if you are getting things you cannot afford.


It's simple - education shouldn't be set on economies of profit.  If you consider an education a "luxury", you're the problem.  It's not job training, it's not a revenue stream, it's the fundamental way a society advances itself.  And leaving that to capitalistic drivers is asking for disaster.

Nearly every other first world country has figured this out.  Why must we have such a large population that insists on education being the same as stock options?
 
2014-04-29 11:19:19 AM  

Thunderpipes: Because Math, science, etc. will lead to, in general, people getting jobs and paying back into the system. I don't think the public should be funding people's hobbies.

Can shove culture up your butt, that doesn't pay the bills. That is just the stupid card that liberals pull because they want to think they are above others because they look at some nude paintings. Yes, I took philosophy and art, and it was interesting. But ultimately, who gives a crap?


It's nice to be able to identify those that are erosive to civilization.  You don't even need to wear a badge.
 
2014-04-29 11:20:05 AM  

Thunderpipes: Yes, I took philosophy and art, and it was interesting. But ultimately, who gives a crap?


American and Chinese engineers study the same math courses.  American engineering students also need to take philosophy and art classes.  One group is innovative and resourceful, the other group just steals the ideas of the first.  I wonder if their education makes a difference?
 
2014-04-29 11:20:30 AM  
Largely, college costs have gone up not because it's more expensive to educate students, but because State's have significantly reduced their funding for higher education and Federal loans have replaced Federal grants.

As long as we see higher education as a market commodity and not a public good, I don't know that any meaningful change will come to the system.

/only two years of loans left :D
 
2014-04-29 11:21:18 AM  

Khellendros: Nearly every other first world country has figured this out. Why must we have such a large population that insists on education being the same as stock options?


America has way too many poor people to be considered a first-world nation.

Oh, and our education system is too unequal as well.

Well, that's a bit of an eyebrow-raising correlation.
 
2014-04-29 11:21:45 AM  

lack of warmth: Pick: I wonder why student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy, but home mortgages are not.

The house can be sold to recoup some of the debt, where how do you return the knowledge placed in your head?  My bro is losing his house as part of bankruptcy, are the college grads willing to give back the degrees?


I would. They've been pretty useless, and I haven't been able to find a job with them. I've been trying for three years now and I'm tired/discouraged/frustrated. Take them back. I need the money for other things.
 
2014-04-29 11:22:11 AM  

mr lawson


smugness and a hot cocoa box sampler


*facepalm*

That's "hot cocoa sampler box". It's nice that you want to use an oldish reference but it would be better if you got it right.
 
2014-04-29 11:22:32 AM  

Champion of the Sun: Thunderpipes: Yes, I took philosophy and art, and it was interesting. But ultimately, who gives a crap?

American and Chinese engineers study the same math courses.  American engineering students also need to take philosophy and art classes.  One group is innovative and resourceful, the other group just steals the ideas of the first.  I wonder if their education makes a difference?


Curious to see who you think is the innovative group.
 
2014-04-29 11:27:10 AM  

Hollie Maea: hinten: Some of these "students" are actually surprised that when a major piece of collateral (your mother) seizes to exist that the loan might come due immediately?

I suspect these "students" are not learning.

Right, because it is very likely that a person whose parent dies will be unable to continue paying monthly installments but able to pay the whole amount at once.


Do Commies not read contracts before they sign?
 
2014-04-29 11:27:30 AM  
In a move that nobody expected, the NYT calls to forgive $1.2 trillion in student loans

Why should we expect what from who?  I have no idea what this is supposed to mean or what sort of expectation I should have of the NYT.  And further more, I don't hang around the kind of people who have the NYT all figured out enough to make such a statement.  I would guess enough of the "over-burden myself with debt" generation journalism majors have made their way into NYT employment.  And a few days ago they got bored/stoned.
 
2014-04-29 11:28:48 AM  

dragonchild: Khellendros: Nearly every other first world country has figured this out. Why must we have such a large population that insists on education being the same as stock options?

America has way too many poor people to be considered a first-world nation.

Oh, and our education system is too unequal as well.

Well, that's a bit of an eyebrow-raising correlation.


You have tor remember, our "poor" live better than almost everyone in the world. How is our education system unequal? All get the same public school options, poor people get free cash to go to school.
 
2014-04-29 11:30:35 AM  

Thunderpipes: You have tor remember, our "poor" live better than almost everyone in the world. How is our education system unequal? All get the same public school options, poor people get free cash to go to school.


If you believe that, you're clinically insane.
 
2014-04-29 11:31:22 AM  

Englebert Slaptyback: That's "hot cocoa sampler box". It's nice that you want to use an oldish reference but it would be better if you got it right.


oh shut up! I only had one cup of coffee and very little sleep last nite riding out tornado warnings all nite
 
2014-04-29 11:32:02 AM  

Spudsy1: Yeah lets teach kids that being irresponsible is a good thing.  Sure I am going to go out and get an education I cannot pay for.  Why not just get a house I cannot afford, while I am at it why not get a car I cannot afford.  Make the American people pay for luxuries I want but cannot afford.  HERE IS A HINT.  YOU are ruining America if you are getting things you cannot afford.


Settle down, Gramps.  You'll give yourself another stroke.
 
2014-04-29 11:32:42 AM  

brobdiggy: That adds HUGE risk for the lender and incentives students to borrow and never repay.


That's kindda the point skippy.
 
2014-04-29 11:34:05 AM  

mr lawson


Englebert Slaptyback: That's "hot cocoa sampler box". It's nice that you want to use an oldish reference but it would be better if you got it right.

oh shut up! I only had one cup of coffee and very little sleep last nite riding out tornado warnings all nite


I hope you and your trailer are okay.
 
2014-04-29 11:36:20 AM  

Englebert Slaptyback: I hope you and your trailer are okay.


were fine...still trying to get all the coon dogs out from under the front porch.
 
2014-04-29 11:39:34 AM  
all loans 0% interest and repayment of which is in no way tied to credit score. repayment is automatic if you work, it's just garnished from your check, in reasonable amounts for up to 20 years. After that, it's wiped off the books. You can choose to pay it back in full at any time with no penalties.
 
2014-04-29 11:40:57 AM  

Khellendros: Thunderpipes: You have tor remember, our "poor" live better than almost everyone in the world. How is our education system unequal? All get the same public school options, poor people get free cash to go to school.

If you believe that, you're clinically insane.


Show me where I am wrong? Must have data. Poor doing bad at school does not mean there is inequality in anything but poor people not trying.
 
2014-04-29 11:41:46 AM  

drewsclues: all loans 0% interest and repayment of which is in no way tied to credit score. repayment is automatic if you work, it's just garnished from your check, in reasonable amounts for up to 20 years. After that, it's wiped off the books. You can choose to pay it back in full at any time with no penalties.


And any amount written off is paid tax-free from the government to a rich white man.  It's the only way we'll get something like that passed.
 
2014-04-29 11:42:25 AM  

Thunderpipes: Poor doing bad at school does not mean there is inequality in anything but poor people not trying.


Noted - troll.
 
2014-04-29 11:46:19 AM  

Khellendros: Thunderpipes: Poor doing bad at school does not mean there is inequality in anything but poor people not trying.

Noted - troll.


Noted, I am correct. Only the weak minded can not argue a point, like you just did.

The difference in this country, is we have a massive population of fat lazy, "poor" people who get everything handed to them. The school systems are fine. The "poor" culture is not something government can change by throwing money at it, quite the opposite. Make the lazy bastards suffer real poverty, then, and only then will they get off their asses.

We spend more per pupil than almost every nation on earth, but are slipping year by year. So don't lie and say money is the problem. Democratic voters are.
 
2014-04-29 11:46:41 AM  

Thunderpipes: Khellendros: Thunderpipes: You have tor remember, our "poor" live better than almost everyone in the world. How is our education system unequal? All get the same public school options, poor people get free cash to go to school.

If you believe that, you're clinically insane.

Show me where I am wrong? Must have data. Poor doing bad at school does not mean there is inequality in anything but poor people not trying.


It depends where you live.  That's true in some states (free tuition for top students) but it's the exception rather than the norm.
 
2014-04-29 11:48:05 AM  

BgJonson79: Khellendros: BgJonson79: Lucky LaRue: mr lawson: first step is to get rid of federally backed student loans

I wonder what would happen if we did get rid of federal backing.  I am guessing that we'd have a situation similar to what I was ad-libbing about earlier - the banks would let accountants and actuarials decide which degrees are a good bet, which would be good, I suppose.  But, then all the liberal arts degrees (like English, History, Art, Music, Philosophy, etc.al) would be the realm of the wealthy who could afford university on their own, and I don't think I would want to live in a society so clearly delineated by the haves and the have-nots.

So, no meritocracies then?

What's your definition of merit?  Because if you're equating a family having money with their merit, you need your head examined.

If you're smart enough to get into college, shouldn't you be smart enough to get a job that'll let you pay back your loans without issue?


No. people go to college for idiotic crap all the time. Just because you can get a degree in a field of knowledge does not mean that someone will pay you for that knowledge. If you get a degree in anime art appreciation (no an actual art degree where you can draw), it is unlikely that you'll find anyone to pay you to look at cartoon porn.
 
2014-04-29 11:49:50 AM  

jshine: Thunderpipes: I am a liberal now. I actually firmly believe that a college education should be cheap, and heavily subsidized by the government.

However, I also think that the standards to get into college, and what you go for need to be drastically changed. Political indoctrination needs to be gotten rid of. Stupid majors need to be ditched. College should be for real students, who have real ambition, to train for real jobs.

Trade schools exist already, and they probably don't have liberal arts requirements (no pesky history classes, for instance). They're very practical.


This.
 
2014-04-29 11:51:15 AM  

jshine: Thunderpipes: Khellendros: Thunderpipes: You have tor remember, our "poor" live better than almost everyone in the world. How is our education system unequal? All get the same public school options, poor people get free cash to go to school.

If you believe that, you're clinically insane.

Show me where I am wrong? Must have data. Poor doing bad at school does not mean there is inequality in anything but poor people not trying.

It depends where you live.  That's true in some states (free tuition for top students) but it's the exception rather than the norm.


Federal grants are available for all.

Until we address the real problem, lazy, freeloading people having kids as fast as they can and raising them the same way, nothing will ever fix it. Artificially trying to change outcomes will just waste more money.
 
2014-04-29 11:51:44 AM  

Thunderpipes: Noted, I am correct. Only the weak minded can not argue a point, like you just did.


You made a blind assertion that poor people, as a demographic group, don't try.  With no data to back it up, I might add.  You then tried to make it a political issue.

Much like the bearded guy on the corner that throws feces at traffic or the chicken playing chess, you're not having a useful or productive conversation, and should be ignored.  Enjoy.
 
2014-04-29 11:55:53 AM  
I just moved from a wealthy VT little town to a pretty poor rural town in VA. Teachers here make drastically less money. But you know what? Students here do better. There is less crime, more achievement, and the average family income here is $15,000 below VT town.

How could this be? According to liberals, the only factor in school performance is how much money you spend.
 
2014-04-29 11:59:34 AM  

Thunderpipes: According to liberals, the only factor in school performance is how much money you spend.


(Citation needed)
 
2014-04-29 12:01:32 PM  

mr lawson


were fine...still trying to get all the coon dogs out from under the front porch.


Well, lookit Mr. Fancy Pants here with his fancy porch!

I just have an old BMW.

:-)
 
2014-04-29 12:02:24 PM  
Correction, $19,000 less family income. 59k in Georgia, VT compared to 40k where I am now.

We don't have heroin needles littering the roadside.
People here are religious (I am not), drive ATVs, drive crappy pick-ups, talk with a southern accent. Basically, liberal hell. yet, people here do better in school, less crime. How could this be? Get this, property taxes are 30% of what they are in VT!
 
2014-04-29 12:14:57 PM  

hasty ambush: Heraclitus: C'mon, the 1% worked hard to enslave the next generation.

They're not going to let them off the hook that easy!

Yup because the 1% forced them to assume $35k in debt for a degree in puppetry, $105K for a degree in speech and interpersonal communication or $200,000 in debt for a degree in sociology


I believe that would be the exception not the rule.

Are you saying that Americans should not hold a competitive edge in the sciences?

Why do you hate America?
 
2014-04-29 12:15:03 PM  

Thunderpipes: I just moved from a wealthy VT little town to a pretty poor rural town in VA. Teachers here make drastically less money. But you know what? Students here do better. There is less crime, more achievement, and the average family income here is $15,000 below VT town.

How could this be? According to liberals, the only factor in school performance is how much money you spend.


Money is far from the only determinant, though all other things being equal, money helps.  (Also, income is relative.  I'm working in Minnesota now and making less than I did in California last year, but my standard of living is actually quite a bit higher since the cost-of-living is lower.)

It'd be worthwhile studying what causes the difference in educational outcome.  Well, first, start with determining whether that difference is real or not.  It's easy to give out more A's in school, but do the students actually fare better on their ACT/SATs and graduate from universities at the same rates?  If the answer is still "yes, VA is better", then it's worth determining why.  Are the teachers better motivated in spite of being paid less?  Are parents more involved?  Do families value education more?  Etc., etc.
 
2014-04-29 12:16:16 PM  

Thunderpipes: whizbangthedirtfarmer: Let those who go into business or law pay their loans.  Those who are ground-level contributors to society should, after four or five years verifiably working in a high-need social area, should get a large portion of their loan forgiven.  It makes sense.  But the government HAS to follow through.

Virginia has a program that allowed elementary school teachers in impoverished counties to, after five years, get a payoff of 5 to 7,000 dollars on their student loan.  I worked in the area for three years, at which point the state abandoned the program entirely.

Thanks, guys.

This is beyond stupid. Why should a social worker or school teacher, who doesn't even need college to be honest, get a freebie, while a business owner have to pay the bills? That program you point out, gives taxpayer money, to people who will ultimately get a taxpayer pension, why are they more deserving? Education majors statistically do much worse in college as well.


It's not beyond stupid, it's completely logical.  Business majors (that you say teachers and social workers don't need college is alarming enough), make enough money, generally speaking, to be able to pay back their loans and then some.  However, the "high need" positions that many states NEED workers in, which include education, social work, and so on, can be lured a bit with the promise of some portion of the money off of their tuition.

It's the same concept that drives colleges differential tuition.  Not hard to comprehend.  So long as the state and federal governments continue to completely deemphasize education funding, then this is what you'll get.

\that many other successful countries offer very low-cost to free college is very telling
 
2014-04-29 12:37:53 PM  
College students who borrow from private lenders often assume that private and federal student loans work the same way. The two could not be more different.

Sorry to be the "let 'em crash" guy, but is it too much to ask someone borrowing tens of thousands of dollars to read the application?
 
2014-04-29 12:44:00 PM  

drewsclues: all loans 0% interest and repayment of which is in no way tied to credit score. repayment is automatic if you work, it's just garnished from your check, in reasonable amounts for up to 20 years. After that, it's wiped off the books. You can choose to pay it back in full at any time with no penalties.


Why would anyone make that loan?
 
2014-04-29 12:46:36 PM  

keypusher: drewsclues: all loans 0% interest and repayment of which is in no way tied to credit score. repayment is automatic if you work, it's just garnished from your check, in reasonable amounts for up to 20 years. After that, it's wiped off the books. You can choose to pay it back in full at any time with no penalties.

Why would anyone make that loan?


Government would make that loan in order to ensure an educated workforce. Get the private sector out of it, they've clearly FUBAR'd it
 
2014-04-29 12:49:21 PM  

Thunderpipes: Art, philosophy, history can all be studied in a person's spare time, at no cost. By their very nature, those topics should be studied alone.


Well, I can see my days of not taking you opinion on higher education seriously have come to a middle.
 
2014-04-29 12:49:32 PM  

keypusher: College students who borrow from private lenders often assume that private and federal student loans work the same way. The two could not be more different.

Sorry to be the "let 'em crash" guy, but is it too much to ask someone borrowing tens of thousands of dollars to read the application?


No, you see, if you don't read the contract and just assume that the deal has terms you prefer, then your uninformed assumptions should be honored as a binding agreement.
 
2014-04-29 12:53:33 PM  

Thunderpipes: Because Math, science, etc. will lead to, in general, people getting jobs and paying back into the system. I don't think the public should be funding people's hobbies.

Can shove culture up your butt, that doesn't pay the bills. That is just the stupid card that liberals pull because they want to think they are above others because they look at some nude paintings. Yes, I took philosophy and art, and it was interesting. But ultimately, who gives a crap?


So because YOU were unable to derive the benefit of a more rounded education you assume that everybody else has the same deficit in ability?
 
2014-04-29 01:01:01 PM  

CokeBear: keypusher: drewsclues: all loans 0% interest and repayment of which is in no way tied to credit score. repayment is automatic if you work, it's just garnished from your check, in reasonable amounts for up to 20 years. After that, it's wiped off the books. You can choose to pay it back in full at any time with no penalties.

Why would anyone make that loan?

Government would make that loan in order to ensure an educated workforce. Get the private sector out of it, they've clearly FUBAR'd it


The government doesn't even make loans like that now, even if you have a house to secure it with.  I mean, come on.  We run annual deficits in the hundreds of billions of dollars, we've got a lot of genuinely poor people for whom college is not even a prospect, but we're supposed to divert much more money to relatively well-off young people?  Besides, flooding the universities with essentially free money (free for the universities, that is) would just drive tuition up.  No thanks.
 
2014-04-29 01:04:08 PM  

Thunderpipes: Because Math, science, etc. will lead to, in general, people getting jobs and paying back into the system. I don't think the public should be funding people's hobbies.

Can shove culture up your butt, that doesn't pay the bills. That is just the stupid card that liberals pull because they want to think they are above others because they look at some nude paintings. Yes, I took philosophy and art, and it was interesting. But ultimately, who gives a crap?


Why should engineers and scientists study art and design?

www.blogcdn.com

www.selectism.com

upload.wikimedia.org


I guess to you these are no better than

upload.wikimedia.org

vaporizer-info.com
upload.wikimedia.org


I have hired a LOT of engineers over the years. I wouldn't even consider one that dissed his fine arts classes. Why? See above.
 
2014-04-29 01:05:04 PM  

Khellendros: It's simple - education shouldn't be set on economies of profit.  If you consider an education a "luxury", you're the problem.  It's not job training, it's not a revenue stream, it's the fundamental way a society advances itself.



THIS


Make people better and the rest will follow. Invest in people!
 
kgf
2014-04-29 01:09:15 PM  

Lucky LaRue: DubtodaIll: Lucky LaRue: Hahahaha!  Yeah.. let's forgive the student loans for all those dumb-f*cks who spent $40k / year going to Columbia's School of Journalism so they could take a $30k/year job writing stories about how taxpayers should pay for their bad decision making.

I thought that was the job of the government to make up for people's bad decisions, at least that's all I ever hear out of Democrats.

To be fair, it was under Republican leadership that taxpayers bailed out the banks.


Democrats take your money and give it to the poor.
Republicans take your money and give it to the rich.
Your choice.
 
2014-04-29 01:09:29 PM  

Thallone1: No. people go to college for idiotic crap all the time. Just because you can get a degree in a field of knowledge does not mean that someone will pay you for that knowledge. If you get a degree in anime art appreciation (no an actual art degree where you can draw), it is unlikely that you'll find anyone to pay you to look at cartoon porn.


Do you morons really have to invent idiotic majors just to prove your point that college bad and graduates deserve debt slavery?
It sounds like a jab at Art History, but why not just farking say that? You don't have to invent underwater basketweaving or lesbian poetry to make the point that there are some educations you don't value.
 
2014-04-29 01:09:46 PM  

Thunderpipes: Khellendros: Thunderpipes: You have tor remember, our "poor" live better than almost everyone in the world. How is our education system unequal? All get the same public school options, poor people get free cash to go to school.

If you believe that, you're clinically insane.

Show me where I am wrong? Must have data. Poor doing bad at school does not mean there is inequality in anything but poor people not trying.



I live in a small affluent town in CT. My kids get unlimited access to computers, equipment, iPads, books, and other supplies at. The class sizes are small and all of the teachers are top notch.

Is it your position that it is the same way in the poorest and most crowded cities in my state? Do you suppose if I walked in to an inner city school I would see comparable class sizes?

Let's see if you are intellectually honest enough to answer.

Maybe the nay sayers are right and you are just a troll after all.
 
2014-04-29 01:15:54 PM  
Steps to success;
1 Crown a King; declare national emergency, all normal rules subject to change
2 declare Jubilee [all debts, public and private cancelled, no exceptions]
3 end all current tax schemes
4 endow each citizen with a year's supply of savings.
5 freeze prices and match all wages to a new scale [no more than a 50% spread]
6 all citizens 7 yrs and older must work, even if it is hoeing from a wheel chair, or picking up trash.
7 End the stock market, loans, bonds, mortgages, etc; all money comes from work alone.
8 all citizens have the right to a half acre, real estate may be traded, not sold.
9 those who grow food, may have up to 20 acres, obligated to farm it.
10 End hollywood and the rest of the entertainment industry, mega sports [incl magazines, tv and broadcast music] A bible in every home.
11 Reproduction by marriage only, requires a 4 year course to qualify.

All that would cost less than the annual interest on current debt, and we would also be debt free. Money printing would become unnecessary. Gold, silver and precious stones could back currency.
The world would beg to join us.

This is part of what i would do when i am King
See why monarchy is superior to democracy?

Currently we are ruled by the votes of women, children, imbeciles, and those too old to survive on their own.
Small wonder the result is what we have today, only one hand out of the grave.

Now, y'all forgive those debts,
Lest someone comes in and does it for you;
and a whole lot more!
 
2014-04-29 02:04:51 PM  

ArkAngel: What we need is more emphasis on tech schools, higher standards for admission to colleges, and possibly tracked high schools to encourage .


What we need is for employers not to insist on a four year degree for a job shuffling papers and getting coffee.

I really don't know why all the blame is being heaped on the students, the graduates and the schools when all of them are simply reacting to the "invisible hand" of the market. Potential students realize that if they do not have those degrees they will not get the jobs they want, and universities realize that their expenses (passed to students) rise with the addition of more students with the same facilities and number of instructors.

Cutting people out of a college degree by "raising standards" (making it more difficult to get in) does not help when it is the part of the market they cannot control - employers - that influence demand for their degrees. "Tracked high schools" and more tech schools won't help either, if those tracks aren't what employers are asking for. There need to be jobs at the end of those tracks.
 
2014-04-29 02:06:15 PM  

SpectroBoy: I have hired a LOT of engineers over the years. I wouldn't even consider one that dissed his fine arts classes. Why? See above.


Is that still a thing?  Are we still doing that?
 
2014-04-29 02:12:30 PM  

kgf: Lucky LaRue: DubtodaIll: Lucky LaRue: Hahahaha!  Yeah.. let's forgive the student loans for all those dumb-f*cks who spent $40k / year going to Columbia's School of Journalism so they could take a $30k/year job writing stories about how taxpayers should pay for their bad decision making.

I thought that was the job of the government to make up for people's bad decisions, at least that's all I ever hear out of Democrats.

To be fair, it was under Republican leadership that taxpayers bailed out the banks.

Democrats take your money and give it to the poor.
Republicans take your money and give it to the rich.
Your choice.


FTFY
 
2014-04-29 02:27:03 PM  

rewind2846: What we need is for employers not to insist on a four year degree for a job shuffling papers and getting coffee.


Employers have too much power, period.
They've managed to offload most of their training costs onto the graduate and the taxpayer. If there isn't a college program churning out the EXACT cog to fit their machine, it's "no qualified applicants" and off to find an H1B they can lord over and pay less, even when the regular wage wouldn't even be enough to pay for the degree they're asking for.
 
2014-04-29 02:32:15 PM  

nekom: rumpelstiltskin: I read that as a call for higher interest rates, in exchange for slightly less limited consumer protections.

That's exactly what I'm in favor of.  Make them dischargable in bankruptcy like they used to be.  The price of education has been artificially inflated by cheap money, and that is NOT a good thing.

/never had any student loans, thank god
//have seen them hound people forever


Private student loans should be dis-chargeable in bankruptcy. Fed ones shouldn't but have a very hard max limit of say 30k max.

In-State University shouldn't cost 20k a year.

Will it ever happen, I doubt it, because the money is being funneled to boomer admins making tons of money.
 
2014-04-29 02:43:28 PM  

Thunderpipes: yet, people here do better in school, less crime. How could this be? Get this, property taxes are 30% of what they are in VT!


Speaking as someone who grew up in an area like the one you describe, I can tell you that those kids do better in school because they learn about 30% of what the city slickers' kids do.  It's called "low expectations."

I graduated at the top of my HS class in Podunk, Kansas, then went to college as an engineering major.  I still remember my first week in Calc 101.  I thought I'd wandered into a Greek class by mistake.
 
2014-04-29 02:54:25 PM  

hinten: Some of these "students" are actually surprised that when a major piece of collateral (your mother) seizes to exist that the loan might come due immediately?

I suspect these "students" are not learning.


To be fair, they sign before learning.
To be fairer, this is a lesson that is being learned.
The gift of education keeps giving.
 
2014-04-29 02:54:34 PM  

Thunderpipes: I just moved from a wealthy VT little town to a pretty poor rural town in VA. Teachers here make drastically less money. But you know what? Students here do better. There is less crime, more achievement, and the average family income here is $15,000 below VT town.

How could this be? According to liberals, the only factor in school performance is how much money you spend.


What is the town in VT?  What is the town in VA?

There may be a poor rural Virginia town with smarter kids and better schools than in a small wealthy town in Vermont.  There may be an Easter Bunny too.  But it's not a good bet.
 
2014-04-29 03:31:13 PM  

BgJonson79: NickelP: Lucky LaRue: Sergeant Grumbles: Oh, it's this thread again.

"If you didn't go into the exact area of STEM I'm thinking of right now, and didn't predict what the market would be doing four years out, you deserve to be mired in debt for the rest of your life."

Each of us has a degree of personal responsibility that we need to own up to.  If you go to school for a psychology degree because you think that is your path to making a good living and (four years and $100k)  later find out you made a bad call, then you need to take responsibility for that and not expect society to give you a free do-over.

Not really. Bankruptcy doesn't work like that for anything else. That's one of the great things about this country. You can try things because if you fail hard enough there is a backstop that let's you reset and try again. Some of the most influential people tried and failed badly, but could go bankrupt and try again. Everyone benefits from that. It is bizarre that in this small instance of education we declare that your bad decision is permanent.

When you go bankrupt with other things, there are assets the creditor can get back.  What can they get back for a failed education?


Not credit cards.   Since there is no colateral, they charge a higher interest to account for the inevitable uncollectable debt.  That's why they charge a higher interest.   Certain private loans charge a higher interest AND are non-dischargeable.  Which gave certain banks an unfair advantage.

Problem is that Sallie Mae wasn't smart about it and got very sloppy with their lending standards for a few years.   Now they're stuck with bad debt that they'll probably never collect, but don't wnat to write off either. I suspect that's why they split off their student loan division into a separate company.
 
2014-04-29 03:56:52 PM  

SevenizGud: Yeah, because there is nothing we need more than yet another giant act to reinforce the notion that irresponsible behavior never eventually results in negative consequences.

Lost your job because you are loser, here, have 99999 weeks of unemployment.

Did something astonishingly stupid and hurt yourself, here have payments for your idiocy.

Murderer, here have cable tv and a basketball court.

Personal responsibility for the extinction!!


If you're a private lender and you disregard lending standards issue a bad loan to a unqualified borrower, don't worry, Congress will protect you from bankrupcty filings!

In the current system, all the responsibility is placed on the borrower and removed from the private lender.   That's not a balanced or effective system.   But by all means, lets keep this unnecessary drag on our economy in place just so 18 year-old borrowers can have a bitter life esson a few years down the road.
 
2014-04-29 04:08:54 PM  

Hollie Maea: hinten: Some of these "students" are actually surprised that when a major piece of collateral (your mother) seizes to exist that the loan might come due immediately?

I suspect these "students" are not learning.

Right, because it is very likely that a person whose parent dies will be unable to continue paying monthly installments but able to pay the whole amount at once.


I've been wondering about the thought process that went into this contract clause.  I can only guess that they assume that the co-signer's estate would be used to settle the debt in one lump sum.   Otherwise, I can't understand how it benefits the company to default a loan that's in good standing.
 
2014-04-29 04:18:38 PM  

brobdiggy: .

Mass forgiveness of student loans is a TERRIBLE idea.  The supply of loanable funds would disappear.

Lending for student loans (both public lending and private lending) would come to a complete halt.  Why would lenders want to lend when they know that the loan can just be forgiven and eliminated?  That adds HUGE risk for the lender and incentives students to borrow and never repay.

The reason that student loans are often NOT forgiven in bankruptcy is that the lender can't repossess any collateral.  If you go bankrupt, lenders can foreclose your home, repo your car, but they can't recoup losses from education loans.  They can't take away your college knowledge.


GOOD.

The current system is completely farked and it has to be re-set with major controls if it's going to work moving forward. So many people my age have forgoed buying a house, marriage, and kids because they are shackled to student loans.

College costs have skyrocketed because of all that money being pumped into the system, you have college presidents making obscene amounts of money and levels of bureaucracy.

Federal loans should be capped to 30k max for undergrad and private loans should be dischargeable.

The money flow would dry up considerably, forcing colleges to re-think their strategies and finally put an end to increasing tuition.
 
2014-04-29 04:42:40 PM  

shortymac: GOOD.

The current system is completely farked and it has to be re-set with major controls if it's going to work moving forward. So many people my age have forgoed buying a house, marriage, and kids because they are shackled to student loans.

College costs have skyrocketed because of all that money being pumped into the system, you have college presidents making obscene amounts of money and levels of bureaucracy.

Federal loans should be capped to 30k max for undergrad and private loans should be dischargeable.

The money flow would dry up considerably, forcing colleges to re-think their strategies and finally put an end to increasing tuition.



Indeed.  The current situation is a gravy train, and everyone from the bankers to the universities are taking a free ride.  Ultimately the students are the ones getting stuck with the bill ... which, as the least-powerful players involved, should surprise no one.
 
2014-04-29 04:55:17 PM  

Thunderpipes: Khellendros: Thunderpipes: Art, philosophy, history can all be studied in a person's spare time, at no cost. By their very nature, those topics should be studied alone.

"By their very nature".... so glad we have you, the center of culture and education in the world today, to determine the "nature" of subjects that should be studied on your own in spare time.  How about if we do the same thing with science, math, engineering, business, and law?  You can get those from a book, too.  No reason to go to school for them.

Humanities and the arts are fundamental to society and civilization.  Funding them at their base level - schooling - is essential.  And this is coming from a guy with a physics degree that that works in the aerospace industry.  Just because you can't derive massive revenue streams from them on the first order doesn't mean they're not useful, nor should people attain higher degrees in them.

Because Math, science, etc. will lead to, in general, people getting jobs and paying back into the system. I don't think the public should be funding people's hobbies.

Can shove culture up your butt, that doesn't pay the bills. That is just the stupid card that liberals pull because they want to think they are above others because they look at some nude paintings. Yes, I took philosophy and art, and it was interesting. But ultimately, who gives a crap?


History majors aren't just memorizing dates and facts.   They are taught how to do research, to think critically, to write, to develop a theory and present a valid argument.   And history majors do well in the job market because they have basic skills that work in a lot of industries.   Four of our current supreme court justices were history majors. Seven presidents studied history.  Lee Iaccoca, CEO of Chrysler, studied history.
 
2014-04-29 05:59:06 PM  

SpectroBoy: Thunderpipes: Because Math, science, etc. will lead to, in general, people getting jobs and paying back into the system. I don't think the public should be funding people's hobbies.

Can shove culture up your butt, that doesn't pay the bills. That is just the stupid card that liberals pull because they want to think they are above others because they look at some nude paintings. Yes, I took philosophy and art, and it was interesting. But ultimately, who gives a crap?

I have hired a LOT of engineers over the years. I wouldn't even consider one that dissed his fine arts classes. Why? See above.


(pictures of really good examples)

I guess to you these are no better than

(pictures of examples that suck)

THIS^^^

So many dipwads take good design for granted because there enough good engineers who actually paid attention in their art and design classes. We have artists and designers (like myself) whose job is to design with total disregard for engineering, but the best designers are also the ones who paid attention in their math and science classes.

Point is that no matter what your job or who you are, there's always something you can learn that can be used later. Only an ignorant moron would believe otherwise.

Thundermouth reminds me of Danny DeVito's character in "Matilda". Take a peek at that kid's movie to see how they think.

Zinnia Wormwood: Look, Miss Snit, a girl does not get anywhere by acting intelligent! I mean, take a look at you and me. You chose books - I chose looks. I have a nice house, a wonderful husband... and you are slaving away teaching snot-nosed children their ABCs. You want Matilda to go to college? Ha, ha, ha, ha...
Harry Wormwood: College?
[scoffs]
Harry Wormwood: I didn't go to college. I don't know anybody who did. Bunch of hippies and cesspool salesmen, ha ha ha ha...
Jenny: [insulted] Don't sneer at educated people, Mr. Wormwood. If you became ill, heaven forbid, your doctor would be a college graduate.
Harry Wormwood: Yeah...
Jenny: Or - or say you were sued for selling a faulty car. The lawyer who defended you would have gone to college, too.
Harry Wormwood: What car? Sued by who? Who you been talking to?
Jenny: N-nobody.
[sighs]
Jenny: I can see we're not going to agree, are we?


Harry Wormwood: A book? What do you want a book for?
Matilda: To read.
Harry Wormwood: To read? Why would you want to read when you got the television set sitting right in front of you? There's nothing you can get from a book that you can't get from a television faster.
 
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