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(Yahoo)   HBO lights a fire under George R.R. Martin's beard and says "Write faster" (possible spoilers)   (ca.celebrity.yahoo.com) divider line 270
    More: Followup, George R. R. Martin, Game of Thrones, HBO, respiratory rates  
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9275 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 28 Apr 2014 at 1:09 PM (51 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



270 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-04-28 12:40:43 PM  
He's farked. Unless he's been writing the last 2 simultaneously, there's no way he'll be done by 2018, which is when the show is slated to finish.
 
2014-04-28 12:45:24 PM  
They're planning to slowly transition into the Wheel of Time series over the next two seasons.
 
2014-04-28 12:56:55 PM  

James!: They're planning to slowly transition into the Wheel of Time series over the next two seasons.



I will tug the sh*t out of your braids if that happens.
 
2014-04-28 12:58:07 PM  

DamnYankees: He's farked. Unless he's been writing the last 2 simultaneously, there's no way he'll be done by 2018, which is when the show is slated to finish.


It's well known that Martin had to tell HBO and the showrunners where the show was going and how it would end.  The show could very well complete before the books come out as they will probably finish off of his outline.
 
2014-04-28 12:58:51 PM  

Blues_X: James!: They're planning to slowly transition into the Wheel of Time series over the next two seasons.


I will tug the sh*t out of your braids if that happens.


Seriously, it'll pick it up right in the middle of Lord of Chaos.
 
2014-04-28 01:11:17 PM  
Indeed. The gf keeps badgering me about reading the series, but all I can think of is Robert Jordan. Finish it and I'll read it.
 
2014-04-28 01:11:34 PM  

StrikitRich: It's well known that Martin had to tell HBO and the showrunners where the show was going and how it would end.  The show could very well complete before the books come out as they will probably finish off of his outline.


I thought he was 100% adamant against that happening, and may have contractual rights to prevent it. I thought the reason he told them the story was in case he died, not in case he wrote too slowly.
 
2014-04-28 01:13:09 PM  

DamnYankees: StrikitRich: It's well known that Martin had to tell HBO and the showrunners where the show was going and how it would end.  The show could very well complete before the books come out as they will probably finish off of his outline.

I thought he was 100% adamant against that happening, and may have contractual rights to prevent it. I thought the reason he told them the story was in case he died, not in case he wrote too slowly.


HBO is not above murdering a dude.
 
2014-04-28 01:13:35 PM  
the way he's going, he's going to die before he finishes anyway
 
2014-04-28 01:14:59 PM  

James!: DamnYankees: StrikitRich: It's well known that Martin had to tell HBO and the showrunners where the show was going and how it would end.  The show could very well complete before the books come out as they will probably finish off of his outline.

I thought he was 100% adamant against that happening, and may have contractual rights to prevent it. I thought the reason he told them the story was in case he died, not in case he wrote too slowly.

HBO is not above murdering a dude.


THIS.

/And HBO seems to be telling their own story, now...  and I'm OK with that.
 
2014-04-28 01:21:27 PM  
From what I hear, Winds of Winter is about 90% complete, and whatever book comes after is probably 40% done as well. He's reputed to be meticulous, prone to writer's block, someone distracted by shiny objects, and not much of a linear writer.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the next book out this fall some time, and the one after that (who can say if it's the last or not, but I'm guessing not, just based on the general sprawl) within 2-3 years.
 
2014-04-28 01:21:28 PM  
That ending...
It managed to give me some chills.
 
2014-04-28 01:21:41 PM  

mekkab: James!: DamnYankees: StrikitRich: It's well known that Martin had to tell HBO and the showrunners where the show was going and how it would end.  The show could very well complete before the books come out as they will probably finish off of his outline.

I thought he was 100% adamant against that happening, and may have contractual rights to prevent it. I thought the reason he told them the story was in case he died, not in case he wrote too slowly.

HBO is not above murdering a dude.

THIS.

/And HBO seems to be telling their own story, now...  and I'm OK with that.


We might get two stories out of this.
 
2014-04-28 01:22:14 PM  

mekkab: James!: DamnYankees: StrikitRich: It's well known that Martin had to tell HBO and the showrunners where the show was going and how it would end.  The show could very well complete before the books come out as they will probably finish off of his outline.

I thought he was 100% adamant against that happening, and may have contractual rights to prevent it. I thought the reason he told them the story was in case he died, not in case he wrote too slowly.

HBO is not above murdering a dude.

THIS.

/And HBO seems to be telling their own story, now...  and I'm OK with that.


Yeah, HBO is doing a good job of it.
Not that I wouldn't read the rest of the books once finished.
 
2014-04-28 01:23:34 PM  
I missed the last two episodes. Has Dumbledore been killed off yet?
 
2014-04-28 01:23:36 PM  
You didn't hear it from me, but in select literary circles the word is that book 6 is done and being edited. The release delay and 'panic hype' is simply to maximize the profit on the book and show.
 
2014-04-28 01:25:18 PM  

Jews for Hitler: I missed the last two episodes. Has Dumbledore been killed off yet?


Yep. He was strangled by Gandolf.

Oops! Spoilers!
 
2014-04-28 01:25:45 PM  

mekkab: James!: DamnYankees: StrikitRich: It's well known that Martin had to tell HBO and the showrunners where the show was going and how it would end.  The show could very well complete before the books come out as they will probably finish off of his outline.

I thought he was 100% adamant against that happening, and may have contractual rights to prevent it. I thought the reason he told them the story was in case he died, not in case he wrote too slowly.

HBO is not above murdering a dude.

THIS.

/And HBO seems to be telling their own story, now...  and I'm OK with that.


HAH! Would it be ironic that GRRM gets killed by his patron much akin to the politics and intrigue present in the book series he wrote?

//Playing Crusader Kings GoT mod right now...
 
2014-04-28 01:26:23 PM  

mekkab: /And HBO seems to be telling their own story, now...  and I'm OK with that.


I prefer it. I'll watch and read and decide which story was better. HBO is currently in the lead.
 
2014-04-28 01:27:03 PM  
I wish HBO's makeup artists/costume designers came up with something better than Ice Darth Maul for the Night's King.
 
2014-04-28 01:27:07 PM  
I'd guess the sixth book will be out by the end of the year -- it'll be a huge seller whenever it's released, but I can see the powers that be holding it until the holiday season for better sales.

No way that Martin lets the series overtake the books unless he's six feet under.
 
2014-04-28 01:28:25 PM  

Decillion: You didn't hear it from me, but in select literary circles the word is that book 6 is done and being edited. The release delay and 'panic hype' is simply to maximize the profit on the book and show.


No surprise here.
 
2014-04-28 01:29:55 PM  

Decillion: You didn't hear it from me, but in select literary circles the word is that book 6 is done and being edited. The release delay and 'panic hype' is simply to maximize the profit on the book and show.


That would explain why he hasn't mentioned it in months on his blog (previously he'd throw in a "got another chapter done" or something every once in a while). Instead every post has been about anthologies and that damn movie theatre he bought which sucks away so much good ASoIaF writing time!
 
2014-04-28 01:34:00 PM  
Is anyone else noticing that the show is actually starting to diverge from the books in important ways?

I could use a re-read of the book for a refresher but I'm still trying to wrap up the MalazanTale of the Fallen series, and people keep yelling at me to read the Wheel of Time.
 
2014-04-28 01:34:53 PM  
So... He's not my biatch but he's HBO's biatch?
 
2014-04-28 01:36:41 PM  

Decillion: You didn't hear it from me, but in select literary circles the word is that book 6 is done and being edited. The release delay and 'panic hype' is simply to maximize the profit on the book and show.


Well, his publisher is on record as stating it will not be published in 2014.

I thought I saw somewhere that the recently released Tyrion chapter would be the last one released, and for A Dance With Dragons the time between last chapter released and full book released was like eight months, so early 2015 seems to be a reasonable guess. That would put the show in Season 5. Assuming they go 7 seasons, he would need to get A Dream of Spring out two years later to beat the show...
 
2014-04-28 01:39:32 PM  

nocturnal001: Is anyone else noticing that the show is actually starting to diverge from the books in important ways?

I could use a re-read of the book for a refresher but I'm still trying to wrap up the MalazanTale of the Fallen series, and people keep yelling at me to read the Wheel of Time.


How is Malazan Tale of the Fallen? It's been on my radar for awhile but I've never got around to it...

I enjoyed the first and second Wheel of Time books, but by about book 5 they were so utterly frustrating and boring I just couldn't imagine reading the last four or eight or twenty or however many books that series went...
 
2014-04-28 01:42:57 PM  
24.media.tumblr.com
Don't worry! They're coming! Not just two pizzas, there's, there's gonna be five! And they're gonna be huge! You won't believe it!
 
2014-04-28 01:43:43 PM  
So in layman's terms, Game of Thrones is succumbing to Duke Nukem Syndrome?
 
2014-04-28 01:45:37 PM  
So, the article says both this:

<Quote>
The original HBO synopsis of "Game of Thrones" episode 404. (HBO via Reddit)
"A White Walker claims the baby and rides to a city of ice," the original synopsis read. "The child is presented at an altar, where the Night's King greets the infant and lays a finger on its cheek. The baby's eyes turn White Walker blue."

Realizing that they had slipped up, HBO quickly altered the synopsis, changing mention of the "Night's King" to simply "a Walker," but not before an eagle-eyed Reddit user could take a screen shot.
</Quote>

And This:

<Quote>
Just who was that <B>crowned</B> White Walker at the end of Sunday night's episode of "Game of Thrones"?
</Quote>

Which is the spoiler?
 
2014-04-28 01:47:43 PM  
So have Tavi gotten control of his fury's yet?

I haven't watched this season.
 
2014-04-28 01:48:19 PM  
Except the article doesn't say that.
 
2014-04-28 01:49:31 PM  

rjakobi: So in layman's terms, Game of Thrones is succumbing to Duke Nukem Syndrome?


I'm PRETTY sure that's still 'geek terms'
 
2014-04-28 01:51:21 PM  

Slow To Return: Which is the spoiler?


My lousy attempt at formatting didn't work, but my point is basically, "I see a white walker wearing a crown... who am I supposed to think it is?  The Night's QUEEN?"

I'm pretty sure the synopsis wasn't a spoiler.
 
2014-04-28 01:56:43 PM  

Slow To Return: Slow To Return: Which is the spoiler?

My lousy attempt at formatting didn't work, but my point is basically, "I see a white walker wearing a crown... who am I supposed to think it is?  The Night's QUEEN?"

I'm pretty sure the synopsis wasn't a spoiler.


The spoiler is that the name attributed to the white walker in the (since changed) HBO synopsis was used by GRRM in the books to refer to someone who was not (at least at the time) a white walker. So the implication is "that person GRRM mentioned became the King of the Night Walkers."

Of course, HBO could have removed the reference just because they realized the implication of what they wrote, not because the implication is true. So, it is just speculation, and relevant only to the book readers.
 
2014-04-28 01:56:45 PM  

Enlightened Liberal: I wish HBO's makeup artists/costume designers came up with something better than Ice Darth Maul for the Night's King.


It was either Darth Maul or the Lich King from Lord of the Rings. Which would you have preferred?
 
2014-04-28 01:56:57 PM  

mekkab: /And HBO seems to be telling their own story, now...  and I'm OK with that.


I don't really see how that's true. What in this episode is contradictory to the books in any meaningful way? AFAIK, the last scene isn't so much a different story from the books, as it just shows us a scene which isn't in the books.
 
2014-04-28 01:57:32 PM  

JolobinSmokin: So have Tavi gotten control of his fury's yet?

I haven't watched this season.


captainamerica.jpg

I get that reference
 
2014-04-28 01:58:06 PM  

error 303: nocturnal001: Is anyone else noticing that the show is actually starting to diverge from the books in important ways?

I could use a re-read of the book for a refresher but I'm still trying to wrap up the MalazanTale of the Fallen series, and people keep yelling at me to read the Wheel of Time.

How is Malazan Tale of the Fallen? It's been on my radar for awhile but I've never got around to it...

I enjoyed the first and second Wheel of Time books, but by about book 5 they were so utterly frustrating and boring I just couldn't imagine reading the last four or eight or twenty or however many books that series went...


WoT seems to get off track, but by the end of the series you'll go, "OOOOOOH" and realize that it was necessary.  It's not graceful, but it's necessary.
 
2014-04-28 02:00:18 PM  

Cheese eating surrender monkey: So... He's not my biatch but he's HBO's biatch?


How much are you paying him again?

/very few people will be your biatch for the price of a book, even a hard cover
//lots of people willing to be your biatch for HBO money
 
2014-04-28 02:00:55 PM  

DamnYankees: mekkab: /And HBO seems to be telling their own story, now...  and I'm OK with that.

I don't really see how that's true. What in this episode is contradictory to the books in any meaningful way? AFAIK, the last scene isn't so much a different story from the books, as it just shows us a scene which isn't in the books.


It's not contradictory, but if the TFA is to be believed and they did reveal who that was in the end of the episode, it's the one of the most, if not the most significant reveals of the entire series (books and show) to date.
 
2014-04-28 02:01:11 PM  

Sypad: Of course, HBO could have removed the reference just because they realized the implication of what they wrote, not because the implication is true. So, it is just speculation, and relevant only to the book readers.


It also just doesn't make much sense. Even a book reader who knows who the Night's King is, saying that the leader of the White Walkers is the same person is not really a eureka moment, it's more of a 'huh?'
 
2014-04-28 02:01:22 PM  

error 303: I enjoyed the first and second Wheel of Time books, but by about book 5 they were so utterly frustrating and boring I just couldn't imagine reading the last four or eight or twenty or however many books that series went...


Cliffnotes up to 11.  Read from there.  Because there's a 300 page chapter called "The Last Battle".  And it is exactly what it says on the tin.  And Sanderson is *really* good at thinking about "Ok, I have this tech, how would it affect my battle".

Ah, and then go back and CTRL-F "Cauthon".  Mat is an awesome, awesome character.
And possibly read Rand's chapters.  Because that's the main plot.

/And I don't care if you liked Perrin or not.  He does nothing from about Book 6 through Book 12.
 
2014-04-28 02:01:26 PM  

DamnYankees: mekkab: /And HBO seems to be telling their own story, now...  and I'm OK with that.

I don't really see how that's true. What in this episode is contradictory to the books in any meaningful way? AFAIK, the last scene isn't so much a different story from the books, as it just shows us a scene which isn't in the books.


Jon Snow going to capture or kill the defectors was not in the books. It did not go down that way.
 
2014-04-28 02:01:32 PM  

Ow! That was my feelings!: all I can think of is Robert Jordan. Finish it and I'll read it.


The crucial difference here is that the Wheel Of Time books were a huge pile of crap from the get-go, while the Game of Thrones books are each awesome as individual books.

If you don't read them because you're afraid there's a possibility that they won't get ended, then you are depriving yourself of at least 5 fantastic reads.

Also, you may want to not start watching any Star Wars movies.
 
2014-04-28 02:01:36 PM  

error 303: nocturnal001: Is anyone else noticing that the show is actually starting to diverge from the books in important ways?

I could use a re-read of the book for a refresher but I'm still trying to wrap up the MalazanTale of the Fallen series, and people keep yelling at me to read the Wheel of Time.

How is Malazan Tale of the Fallen? It's been on my radar for awhile but I've never got around to it...

I enjoyed the first and second Wheel of Time books, but by about book 5 they were so utterly frustrating and boring I just couldn't imagine reading the last four or eight or twenty or however many books that series went...



I like the series a lot. Very different than many other fantasy worlds (no dwarves or elves etc. ) and walks a nice path between realism and the fantastical. The author drops you right into the story line so it takes a bit to get adjusted, but after that it's all good. After the first couple books the major story arch is revealed with each booking having it's own fleshed out plot that maps to it. Plus it is a 10 book series that are all written so no fear of waiting years to find out what happens.
 
2014-04-28 02:02:08 PM  

drewsclues: It's not contradictory, but if the TFA is to be believed and they did reveal who that was in the end of the episode, it's the one of the most, if not the most significant reveals of the entire series (books and show) to date.


I'm not sure I agree with this. How is it meaningful to say that the leader of the White Walkers is the same person as the leader of the Night's Watch from a couple thousand years ago. Seems like a random connection to me, not anything insightful.
 
2014-04-28 02:02:47 PM  

Lando Lincoln: Jon Snow going to capture or kill the defectors was not in the books. It did not go down that way.


Yeah, but that's old news, and they are clearly just using that plot to stall for time.
 
2014-04-28 02:04:24 PM  

nocturnal001: and people keep yelling at me to read the Wheel of Time.



These people are not your friends.
 
2014-04-28 02:06:00 PM  
I think he's more than happy letting HBO finish the series.    He doesn't know how to.

Yes, I know he has some rough outline of the Point A to   Point Z endpoint in the plot line, but he doesn't know how to fill in the gaps and get there in any coherent and cohesive form of narrative storytelling (as evidenced by procrastination and the the constant rewrites).   He farked around and created more ancillary characters, needless side plots and loose ends than he knows how to tie up.
 
2014-04-28 02:07:08 PM  
I read the books and i have no idea what you all are talking about.
 
2014-04-28 02:07:20 PM  

error 303: How is Malazan Tale of the Fallen? It's been on my radar for awhile but I've never got around to it...


The Malazan series is easily my favorite piece of literature.  Martin's world building and politicking with Glen Cook's characterizations and dialog.  The first book is the worst book, which makes it hard to start, but it's amazing.
 
2014-04-28 02:08:06 PM  

DamnYankees: mekkab: /And HBO seems to be telling their own story, now...  and I'm OK with that.

I don't really see how that's true. What in this episode is contradictory to the books in any meaningful way? AFAIK, the last scene isn't so much a different story from the books, as it just shows us a scene which isn't in the books.


Well, all the stuff surrounding Craster's keep is new: Bran getting captured, Jon wanting to go bring the mutineers in, a servant of Roose Bolton tagging along.

I don't blame the series authors; they're having to make some new stuff up to account for the fact that almost nothing happens to some characters for the span of 2 books. People were already starting to complain heavily about Bran scenes.
 
2014-04-28 02:08:19 PM  
He is a fat guy.  Give him more food to write faster.
 
2014-04-28 02:08:28 PM  

DamnYankees: StrikitRich: It's well known that Martin had to tell HBO and the showrunners where the show was going and how it would end.  The show could very well complete before the books come out as they will probably finish off of his outline.

I thought he was 100% adamant against that happening, and may have contractual rights to prevent it. I thought the reason he told them the story was in case he died, not in case he wrote too slowly.


HBO also has to worry about keep all of their actors under contract, which would be extremely difficult to do if the show had to go on hiatus for any reason.

He didn't just tell them the rest of the story in case he died, in any case.  He had to tell them the rest of the story so that they would know how to refine it and show it on screen in a way the viewers understand.  From this point on, it's very possible that we start seeing things that aren't in the books yet.  The HBO execs would have never agreed to do the series if they felt like they would be hamstrung as far as finishing it by the author's own tardiness.
 
2014-04-28 02:08:29 PM  
Hey, wait a minute. Jon Snow wants to go capture or kill the Night's Watch defectors because he doesn't want them to blab to Mance Rayder about how few men are now guarding the Wall. But Mance was a member of the Night's Watch, so...how long ago did Mance leave the Night's Watch anyway? Did the Night's Watch take a serious dip in manpower since Mance left? Mance's raiders have killed other members of the Night's Watch recently, so why are we to assume that none of those members didn't already blab the information to Mance?
 
2014-04-28 02:09:36 PM  

bborchar: HBO also has to worry about keep all of their actors under contract, which would be extremely difficult to do if the show had to go on hiatus for any reason.


Not to mention that by that point Bran and Arya will be 25 years old.
 
2014-04-28 02:10:29 PM  

Lando Lincoln: Hey, wait a minute. Jon Snow wants to go capture or kill the Night's Watch defectors because he doesn't want them to blab to Mance Rayder about how few men are now guarding the Wall. But Mance was a member of the Night's Watch, so...how long ago did Mance leave the Night's Watch anyway? Did the Night's Watch take a serious dip in manpower since Mance left? Mance's raiders have killed other members of the Night's Watch recently, so why are we to assume that none of those members didn't already blab the information to Mance?


Um... Well... Shut up, that's why.
 
2014-04-28 02:11:32 PM  

BalugaJoe: He is a fat guy.  Give him more food to write faster.


Fatness does not work that way. Lock him in a cell and deny him ice cream and fried food until he finishes the book and you'll have that sixth book finished in no time.
 
2014-04-28 02:12:10 PM  
I think when it comes to the books, there really are two kinds of readers:

1. Those who HAVE TO KNOW HOW IT ENDS. These are the ones most vocal about GRRM dicking around and not writing when HE SHOULD BE WRITING WHY ISN'T HE WRITING I HAVE TO KNOW HOW TYRION TURNS OUT!!!

2. Those who are just along for the ride. This is me. I honestly don't give a f*ck about how it's going to end. I love the world he created and the more time I spend in it following his characters around while they travel, eat and live, the happier I am.
 
2014-04-28 02:13:44 PM  

error 303: nocturnal001: Is anyone else noticing that the show is actually starting to diverge from the books in important ways?

I could use a re-read of the book for a refresher but I'm still trying to wrap up the MalazanTale of the Fallen series, and people keep yelling at me to read the Wheel of Time.

How is Malazan Tale of the Fallen? It's been on my radar for awhile but I've never got around to it...


It's good, what others have said is true. Gardens of the Moon drops you right into a giant story and you'll be WTF'ing for a while, but it's worth persevering. It's a *very* fleshed out world, and it's got a lot of ideas in it that will stick with you.

It manages to keep a Glen Cook level of humanity while at the same time interacting with near immortal beings.

Plus, it's,  you know, *done*.
 
2014-04-28 02:14:26 PM  

Lando Lincoln: Hey, wait a minute. Jon Snow wants to go capture or kill the Night's Watch defectors because he doesn't want them to blab to Mance Rayder about how few men are now guarding the Wall. But Mance was a member of the Night's Watch, so...how long ago did Mance leave the Night's Watch anyway? Did the Night's Watch take a serious dip in manpower since Mance left? Mance's raiders have killed other members of the Night's Watch recently, so why are we to assume that none of those members didn't already blab the information to Mance?


Well, I assume that the people who escaped probably said "We haven't seen Mance".  Hence the "hey, we should hurry up and do this".

If you want to be nitpicky, I would ask why the mutineers are keeping Ghost locked up instead of just killing him- but if it means that we get major carnage when Ghost gets out, I don't even mind that.
 
2014-04-28 02:14:33 PM  

Shostie: 2. Those who are just along for the ride. This is me. I honestly don't give a f*ck about how it's going to end. I love the world he created and the more time I spend in it following his characters around while they travel, eat and live, the happier I am.


That's because you're dumb.
 
2014-04-28 02:15:18 PM  

Shostie: 1. Those who HAVE TO KNOW HOW IT ENDS. These are the ones most vocal about GRRM dicking around and not writing when HE SHOULD BE WRITING WHY ISN'T HE WRITING I HAVE TO KNOW HOW TYRION TURNS OUT!!!

2. Those who are just along for the ride. This is me. I honestly don't give a f*ck about how it's going to end. I love the world he created and the more time I spend in it following his characters around while they travel, eat and live, the happier I am.


I don't think its that we have to know how it ends - I think people just want to be comforted that it WILL end, and they won't have to wait 10 years for it. That's not unreasonable, is it?
 
2014-04-28 02:15:26 PM  

Lando Lincoln: Hey, wait a minute. Jon Snow wants to go capture or kill the Night's Watch defectors because he doesn't want them to blab to Mance Rayder about how few men are now guarding the Wall. But Mance was a member of the Night's Watch, so...how long ago did Mance leave the Night's Watch anyway? Did the Night's Watch take a serious dip in manpower since Mance left? Mance's raiders have killed other members of the Night's Watch recently, so why are we to assume that none of those members didn't already blab the information to Mance?


Jon also suspects that Bran & co. would head to Craster's Keep since it is the only non-Wilding inhabitation around, not knowing it is in the hands of the mutineers. There was a scene with Jon and Sam looking at a map before the confrontation at the dining hall. His dire wolf is out there too.  So Jon has other reasons to go back there.
 
2014-04-28 02:15:56 PM  

Lando Lincoln: Shostie: 2. Those who are just along for the ride. This is me. I honestly don't give a f*ck about how it's going to end. I love the world he created and the more time I spend in it following his characters around while they travel, eat and live, the happier I am.

That's because you're dumb.


Yeah, I'm eating some chicken that I made from a recipe in my Song of Ice and Fire cookbook.

SO DUMB LIKE A CHICKEN GLAZED WITH HONEY AND DRIED FRUIT!
 
2014-04-28 02:16:14 PM  

DamnYankees: drewsclues: It's not contradictory, but if the TFA is to be believed and they did reveal who that was in the end of the episode, it's the one of the most, if not the most significant reveals of the entire series (books and show) to date.

I'm not sure I agree with this. How is it meaningful to say that the leader of the White Walkers is the same person as the leader of the Night's Watch from a couple thousand years ago. Seems like a random connection to me, not anything insightful.


We went from knowing almost nothing, to knowing a little, if the identity is true. The Others have motivation and are organized. That's the important part. Whether or not that's meaningful or random doesn't really matter.
 
2014-04-28 02:16:57 PM  

bhcompy: error 303: How is Malazan Tale of the Fallen? It's been on my radar for awhile but I've never got around to it...

The Malazan series is easily my favorite piece of literature.  Martin's world building and politicking with Glen Cook's characterizations and dialog.  The first book is the worst book, which makes it hard to start, but it's amazing.


Well said. Book 1 had me wondering what I was doing until halfway through. The Chain of Dogs was some of the most compelling stuff I've read. I absolutely hated the Edur vs Letheri war until about 2/3 through then I wound up really enjoying it.
 
2014-04-28 02:17:35 PM  

bhcompy: error 303: How is Malazan Tale of the Fallen? It's been on my radar for awhile but I've never got around to it...

The Malazan series is easily my favorite piece of literature.  Martin's world building and politicking with Glen Cook's characterizations and dialog.  The first book is the worst book, which makes it hard to start, but it's amazing.


Neat. Thanks. I'll make that my next big read. I had a hard time with the first 200 pages or so of Tad William's Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn books, but once it got going it became maybe my favorite fantasy series ever, so I don't mind a little confusing slog to start out with if the payoff is worth it.
 
2014-04-28 02:17:51 PM  

bborchar: Lando Lincoln: Hey, wait a minute. Jon Snow wants to go capture or kill the Night's Watch defectors because he doesn't want them to blab to Mance Rayder about how few men are now guarding the Wall. But Mance was a member of the Night's Watch, so...how long ago did Mance leave the Night's Watch anyway? Did the Night's Watch take a serious dip in manpower since Mance left? Mance's raiders have killed other members of the Night's Watch recently, so why are we to assume that none of those members didn't already blab the information to Mance?

Well, I assume that the people who escaped probably said "We haven't seen Mance".  Hence the "hey, we should hurry up and do this".

If you want to be nitpicky, I would ask why the mutineers are keeping Ghost locked up instead of just killing him- but if it means that we get major carnage when Ghost gets out, I don't even mind that.


How did they even catch Ghost in the first goddamn place?

"You there! Go catch that giant direwolf and stick him in a cage for no real reason!"
"Yeah, you can go fark yourself sideways, buddy."
 
2014-04-28 02:18:00 PM  

DamnYankees: Shostie: 1. Those who HAVE TO KNOW HOW IT ENDS. These are the ones most vocal about GRRM dicking around and not writing when HE SHOULD BE WRITING WHY ISN'T HE WRITING I HAVE TO KNOW HOW TYRION TURNS OUT!!!

2. Those who are just along for the ride. This is me. I honestly don't give a f*ck about how it's going to end. I love the world he created and the more time I spend in it following his characters around while they travel, eat and live, the happier I am.

I don't think its that we have to know how it ends - I think people just want to be comforted that it WILL end, and they won't have to wait 10 years for it. That's not unreasonable, is it?


It started as a trilogy and he's working on book six of allegedly seven. I'm reading through the series for the third time and I really don't see any way he can wrap this up in a timely fashion unless he cuts forward 10 years and spends the remaining book as an epilogue.
 
2014-04-28 02:18:15 PM  

Ow! That was my feelings!: Jews for Hitler: I missed the last two episodes. Has Dumbledore been killed off yet?

Yep. He was strangled by Gandolf.

Oops! Spoilers!


But it's OK; it turns out he is given a whole new set of regenerations.
 
2014-04-28 02:18:16 PM  

drewsclues: We went from knowing almost nothing, to knowing a little, if the identity is true. The Others have motivation and are organized. That's the important part. Whether or not that's meaningful or random doesn't really matter.


How can "whether its meaningful" not matter? That's literally the definition of meaningful.
 
2014-04-28 02:19:09 PM  

Shostie: It started as a trilogy and he's working on book six of allegedly seven. I'm reading through the series for the third time and I really don't see any way he can wrap this up in a timely fashion unless he cuts forward 10 years and spends the remaining book as an epilogue.


Ergo the worry. Keep in mind, people aren't just worried the writer will die before its over. They are worried the reader will!
 
2014-04-28 02:22:21 PM  

Shostie: I think when it comes to the books, there really are two kinds of readers:

1. Those who HAVE TO KNOW HOW IT ENDS. These are the ones most vocal about GRRM dicking around and not writing when HE SHOULD BE WRITING WHY ISN'T HE WRITING I HAVE TO KNOW HOW TYRION TURNS OUT!!!

2. Those who are just along for the ride. This is me. I honestly don't give a f*ck about how it's going to end. I love the world he created and the more time I spend in it following his characters around while they travel, eat and live, the happier I am.


That's the perk of being an author in the fantasy genre.  Almost no standards or expectations by your readers.

The downside?  Getting lost in the shuffle of an untold number of of amateur authors pumping out .99 cent e-Books cementing that standard.
 
2014-04-28 02:23:52 PM  

rjakobi: So in layman's terms, Game of Thrones is succumbing to Duke Nukem Syndrome?


Decillion: You didn't hear it from me, but in select literary circles the word is that book 6 is done and being edited. The release delay and 'panic hype' is simply to maximize the profit on the book and show.


Let's just hope that Axl Rose isn't G.R.R.M.'s editor.  Remember how long Chinese Democracy took to complete?
 
2014-04-28 02:26:02 PM  

DamnYankees: mekkab: /And HBO seems to be telling their own story, now...  and I'm OK with that.

I don't really see how that's true. What in this episode is contradictory to the books in any meaningful way? AFAIK, the last scene isn't so much a different story from the books, as it just shows us a scene which isn't in the books.


Yet.

My impression is that the HBO revealed a detail that hasn't YET been discussed in the books, but quite possibly was in the outline somewhere.  I didn't feel this was so much a different direction, as simply getting more into the White Walker story than the books have.

I found myself a bit frustrated that the White Walker story hasn't moved any farther in the books than it did.  Seemed like things were imminent in Book 2, yet....nothing really of substance.  It's possible HBO is (correctly IMO) trying to keep that story advancing for the TV viewers.  I think it's a good decision.

So I don't see that as a different direction, just information released earlier than in the books possibly.

The Bran/Craster's Keep stuff is a slightly different direction, but again, one probably made to help keep plots a little closer together than in the book.  I don't sense that Bran's journey will ultimately change, just that he gets there a bit differently.  It's just another small, probably meaningless change, that I think is better done than in the books.
 
2014-04-28 02:26:16 PM  
I think book 6 is the real turning point in the hope of GRRM finishing the series. Book 7 will be a series of climaxes that should nearly write themselves.

I just hope he keeps the books as vessels in the trope destructor fleet and doesn't take the easy way out.
 
2014-04-28 02:27:19 PM  

DamnYankees: drewsclues: We went from knowing almost nothing, to knowing a little, if the identity is true. The Others have motivation and are organized. That's the important part. Whether or not that's meaningful or random doesn't really matter.

How can "whether its meaningful" not matter? That's literally the definition of meaningful.


Sorry, that's just me dismissing your opinion without saying it. I should just say it. I'm of the opinion that some info is better than no info, and I don't look into, "what is all means." the info is there (maybe) and I'm happy to have it.
 
2014-04-28 02:28:58 PM  
George R. R. Martin, please write and write faster.
You're not going to get any younger, you know.
Winter is coming. I'm growing impatient, and you've still got two whole damn books left to go!
So write, George.  Write like the wind!

(link)
 
2014-04-28 02:33:22 PM  

recoil47: I found myself a bit frustrated that the White Walker story hasn't moved any farther in the books than it did.


It's a race to see who can move slower towards Westeros: White Walkers or Daenerys Targaryen.

"The White Walkers are moving strong! They are out of the box first in the first scene of the series! But wait! They've decided to do nothing for the rest of the season! This gives Daenerys plenty of time to catch up! But no! She decides to go in the opposite direction from Westeros! It's like neither of them want anything to do with Westeros after all!"
 
2014-04-28 02:33:33 PM  

Lando Lincoln: bborchar: Lando Lincoln: Hey, wait a minute. Jon Snow wants to go capture or kill the Night's Watch defectors because he doesn't want them to blab to Mance Rayder about how few men are now guarding the Wall. But Mance was a member of the Night's Watch, so...how long ago did Mance leave the Night's Watch anyway? Did the Night's Watch take a serious dip in manpower since Mance left? Mance's raiders have killed other members of the Night's Watch recently, so why are we to assume that none of those members didn't already blab the information to Mance?

Well, I assume that the people who escaped probably said "We haven't seen Mance".  Hence the "hey, we should hurry up and do this".

If you want to be nitpicky, I would ask why the mutineers are keeping Ghost locked up instead of just killing him- but if it means that we get major carnage when Ghost gets out, I don't even mind that.

How did they even catch Ghost in the first goddamn place?

"You there! Go catch that giant direwolf and stick him in a cage for no real reason!"
"Yeah, you can go fark yourself sideways, buddy."


Maybe they caught Ghost in a pit the same way they trapped Bran's wolf..................
 
2014-04-28 02:34:00 PM  

Lando Lincoln: Hey, wait a minute. Jon Snow wants to go capture or kill the Night's Watch defectors because he doesn't want them to blab to Mance Rayder about how few men are now guarding the Wall. But Mance was a member of the Night's Watch, so...how long ago did Mance leave the Night's Watch anyway? Did the Night's Watch take a serious dip in manpower since Mance left? Mance's raiders have killed other members of the Night's Watch recently, so why are we to assume that none of those members didn't already blab the information to Mance?


I thought Jon had ulterior motives for going to Craster's Keep that he didn't tell Thorne about?  Sam told him that Bran was north of the wall, and Jon figured that all the wildlings villages were abandoned, but Bran might stumble upon Craster's.

It's getting really hard to keep straight in my mind what's going on in the series with what I read in the books so long ago, especially with all the changes taking place these days.
 
2014-04-28 02:38:43 PM  

Lando Lincoln: Hey, wait a minute. Jon Snow wants to go capture or kill the Night's Watch defectors because he doesn't want them to blab to Mance Rayder about how few men are now guarding the Wall. But Mance was a member of the Night's Watch, so...how long ago did Mance leave the Night's Watch anyway? Did the Night's Watch take a serious dip in manpower since Mance left? Mance's raiders have killed other members of the Night's Watch recently, so why are we to assume that none of those members didn't already blab the information to Mance?


In the book, Mance mentions that he goes to Winterfell to see Robert Baratheon. Jon asks if he was worried about his uncle Benjen revealing him, but Mance says that he left the watch before Benjen joined shortly after Robert's Rebellion. Even if he didn't join for a few years, it's been the better part of 20 years since Mance was part of the NW.
 
2014-04-28 02:39:21 PM  

Sypad: The spoiler is that the name attributed to the white walker in the (since changed) HBO synopsis was used by GRRM in the books to refer to someone who was not (at least at the time) a white walker. So the implication is "that person GRRM mentioned became the King of the Night Walkers."Of course, HBO could have removed the reference just because they realized the implication of what they wrote, not because the implication is true. So, it is just speculation, and relevant only to the book readers.


So when you saw a white walker wearing a crown, you just thought, "Hey, that's weird."
 
2014-04-28 02:39:27 PM  

Lando Lincoln: "The White Walkers are moving strong! They are out of the box first in the first scene of the series! But wait! They've decided to do nothing for the rest of the season! This gives Daenerys plenty of time to catch up! But no! She decides to go in the opposite direction from Westeros! It's like neither of them want anything to do with Westeros after all!"


It's kind of like this, really:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRBkgshj8Cw
 
2014-04-28 02:43:36 PM  

Flying Code Monkey: George R. R. Martin, please write and write faster.
You're not going to get any younger, you know.
Winter is coming. I'm growing impatient, and you've still got two whole damn books left to go!
So write, George.  Write like the wind!

(link)


George RR Martin is not your biatch!
 
2014-04-28 02:53:42 PM  

James!: They're planning to slowly transition into the Wheel of Time series over the next two seasons.


You are bad and this comment is bad.

/flogs James! with a wet noodle
// ;)
 
2014-04-28 02:55:11 PM  
**************. Spoilers ***************

Who is Coldhands in all this mess?  Maybe this Night King is actually a Night Queen, it's hard to tell the gender of a white walker.  Coldhands calls Sam brother and wears Nights Watch blacks and is in fact dead but still walks around and has his own will.  Speculation...

************** End spoilers ***************
 
2014-04-28 02:57:04 PM  
HODOR!!!
 
2014-04-28 02:58:56 PM  

AnubisMan: **************. Spoilers ***************

Who is Coldhands in all this mess?  Maybe this Night King is actually a Night Queen, it's hard to tell the gender of a white walker.  Coldhands calls Sam brother and wears Nights Watch blacks and is in fact dead but still walks around and has his own will.  Speculation...

************** End spoilers ***************


Well, I'm actually starting to wonder if we are even going to see Coldhands in the show or not, because they've worked him out of the story so far.  If he doesn't show up, then we'll all know that he's not really anyone important, I guess.
 
2014-04-28 03:03:18 PM  

Lando Lincoln: recoil47: I found myself a bit frustrated that the White Walker story hasn't moved any farther in the books than it did.

It's a race to see who can move slower towards Westeros: White Walkers or Daenerys Targaryen.

"The White Walkers are moving strong! They are out of the box first in the first scene of the series! But wait! They've decided to do nothing for the rest of the season! This gives Daenerys plenty of time to catch up! But no! She decides to go in the opposite direction from Westeros! It's like neither of them want anything to do with Westeros after all!"


Yeah, I'm loving it but that's my biggest frustration with GoT. It's a swords and sorcery setting and there's a metric shiat-ton of swords (yay!) but very little sorcery (boo!). And by sorcery I just mean magic/fantastic stuff in general. There's a looooot of politics and scheming, but I'd really like to see more monsters and crazy magic shiat.

Mostly because they've teased so much about it. They show the White Walkers early in the show, and they've given you a glimpse or two here and there... but really they haven't done shiat. They're kind of a non-issue. The show woudn't be changed any if they were left out. So they're kind of a fantasy cock-tease. Dragons ahve been a little more involved... but still not a lot going on there either.
 
2014-04-28 03:03:37 PM  

AnubisMan: **************. Spoilers ***************

Who is Coldhands in all this mess?  Maybe this Night King is actually a Night Queen, it's hard to tell the gender of a white walker.  Coldhands calls Sam brother and wears Nights Watch blacks and is in fact dead but still walks around and has his own will.  Speculation...

************** End spoilers ***************


There's been speculation for a while that Coldhands is Benjen Stark.
 
2014-04-28 03:03:38 PM  

StrikitRich: It's well known that Martin had to tell HBO and the showrunners where the show was going and how it would end


cdn.screenrant.com

"And that, kids, is how I met your mother on the Iron Throne."
 
2014-04-28 03:05:16 PM  

error 303: Neat. Thanks. I'll make that my next big read. I had a hard time with the first 200 pages or so of Tad William's Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn books, but once it got going it became maybe my favorite fantasy series ever, so I don't mind a little confusing slog to start out with if the payoff is worth it.


Give it at least the first two books.  If you can't hang after the second book(which is one of the best in the series), then it's probably not going to work out.

nocturnal001: Well said. Book 1 had me wondering what I was doing until halfway through. The Chain of Dogs was some of the most compelling stuff I've read. I absolutely hated the Edur vs Letheri war until about 2/3 through then I wound up really enjoying it.


The Chain of Dogs is one of my favorite sequences in any book I've red.

And the Edur/Letherii war was just weird because it was a whole new world 5 books in.  Tehol Beddict is worth the price of admission, though, and without the war we wouldn't have Beak
 
2014-04-28 03:07:11 PM  

Skyrmion: DamnYankees: mekkab: /And HBO seems to be telling their own story, now...  and I'm OK with that.

I don't really see how that's true. What in this episode is contradictory to the books in any meaningful way? AFAIK, the last scene isn't so much a different story from the books, as it just shows us a scene which isn't in the books.

Well, all the stuff surrounding Craster's keep is new: Bran getting captured, Jon wanting to go bring the mutineers in, a servant of Roose Bolton tagging along.

I don't blame the series authors; they're having to make some new stuff up to account for the fact that almost nothing happens to some characters for the span of 2 books. People were already starting to complain heavily about Bran scenes.


Additionally, the Cersei rape-ish scene is a completely different animal than what was in the book.  And I would argue that all these things together are bigger than just "oh, I miss Strong Belwas."

/it's ok to not agree with me, though.
 
2014-04-28 03:07:41 PM  

meyerkev: error 303: I enjoyed the first and second Wheel of Time books, but by about book 5 they were so utterly frustrating and boring I just couldn't imagine reading the last four or eight or twenty or however many books that series went...

Cliffnotes up to 11.  Read from there.  Because there's a 300 page chapter called "The Last Battle".  And it is exactly what it says on the tin.  And Sanderson is *really* good at thinking about "Ok, I have this tech, how would it affect my battle".

Ah, and then go back and CTRL-F "Cauthon".  Mat is an awesome, awesome character.
And possibly read Rand's chapters.  Because that's the main plot.

/And I don't care if you liked Perrin or not.  He does nothing from about Book 6 through Book 12.


This. A thousand times this.

And Perrin sucks.  They could have done something cool with the whole wolf thing and instead just made him sit outside an Aiel camp biatching about his wife forever.

Mat is pretty much the only character that realizes he's being led from point A to point B and being completely badass along the way.
 
2014-04-28 03:08:21 PM  

Shostie: AnubisMan: **************. Spoilers ***************

Who is Coldhands in all this mess?  Maybe this Night King is actually a Night Queen, it's hard to tell the gender of a white walker.  Coldhands calls Sam brother and wears Nights Watch blacks and is in fact dead but still walks around and has his own will.  Speculation...

************** End spoilers ***************

There's been speculation for a while that Coldhands is Benjen Stark.


Obviously he is Benjen Stark...raped by a White Walker.
 
2014-04-28 03:09:00 PM  

mongbiohazard: Yeah, I'm loving it but that's my biggest frustration with GoT. It's a swords and sorcery setting and there's a metric shiat-ton of swords (yay!) but very little sorcery (boo!). And by sorcery I just mean magic/fantastic stuff in general. There's a looooot of politics and scheming, but I'd really like to see more monsters and crazy magic shiat.

Mostly because they've teased so much about it. They show the White Walkers early in the show, and they've given you a glimpse or two here and there... but really they haven't done shiat. They're kind of a non-issue. The show woudn't be changed any if they were left out. So they're kind of a fantasy cock-tease. Dragons ahve been a little more involved... but still not a lot going on there either.


I think that's the point.  ASoIaF is a response to the really awful state fantasy was in in the 80s and 90s with Dragonlance, Feist, Goodkind, etc.  Making it more real and less magical is what sold people on the books initially.
 
2014-04-28 03:13:36 PM  

Ow! That was my feelings!: Indeed. The gf keeps badgering me about reading the series, but all I can think of is Robert Jordan. Finish it and I'll read it.


As someone who has read both series, he hasn't gone full Robert Jordan YET, his editor needs to cut more vigorously but it's not without hope.

When I read the end of the last book it seemed to me that the divergent storylines are going to come back together again.
 
2014-04-28 03:14:55 PM  

Lando Lincoln: DamnYankees: mekkab: /And HBO seems to be telling their own story, now...  and I'm OK with that.

I don't really see how that's true. What in this episode is contradictory to the books in any meaningful way? AFAIK, the last scene isn't so much a different story from the books, as it just shows us a scene which isn't in the books.

Jon Snow going to capture or kill the defectors was not in the books. It did not go down that way.


Coldhands kills them in the book and he's not in the TV show so gotta use somebody else.  Its just filler so they can push Mance's attack to episode 8 and doesn't diverge from the book by any real amount.  Now if Jon and Bran actually meet up then that actually changes the story

Most likely Bran and Co simply run out the back of the keep when Jon attacks and never actually see Jon
 
2014-04-28 03:15:18 PM  

DamnYankees: He's farked. Unless he's been writing the last 2 simultaneously, there's no way he'll be done by 2018, which is when the show is slated to finish.


Well, that may be what's happening after a fashion.  At a recent book signing Martin read from a history of Westeros, which he called "an ongoing project".  If such a thing exists, it could serve as an outline for the rest of the show either for the showrunners to work from or for ghostwriters to develop the next couple of novels.

Something similar exists in the Star Wars universe and it's thousands of pages long at this point.
 
2014-04-28 03:15:40 PM  

Shostie: AnubisMan: **************. Spoilers ***************

Who is Coldhands in all this mess?  Maybe this Night King is actually a Night Queen, it's hard to tell the gender of a white walker.  Coldhands calls Sam brother and wears Nights Watch blacks and is in fact dead but still walks around and has his own will.  Speculation...

************** End spoilers ***************

There's been speculation for a while that Coldhands is Benjen Stark.



A few theories have discussed why that doesn't make sense. That said, there should be some reason they Benjen was included in the series aside from being the guy who inspires Jon to join the watch.
 
2014-04-28 03:17:06 PM  

Slow To Return: Sypad: The spoiler is that the name attributed to the white walker in the (since changed) HBO synopsis was used by GRRM in the books to refer to someone who was not (at least at the time) a white walker. So the implication is "that person GRRM mentioned became the King of the Night Walkers."Of course, HBO could have removed the reference just because they realized the implication of what they wrote, not because the implication is true. So, it is just speculation, and relevant only to the book readers.

So when you saw a white walker wearing a crown, you just thought, "Hey, that's weird."


Most viewers (both book readers and not) would probably think, "Oh neat, so there is a chief white walker." The association with the term "the Night King" from the episode summary was identifying the chief walker with a pre-existing character.

I'm taking the maybe-spoiler with a pretty big grain of salt, though, based on my interpretation of the books. It'll be interesting to see how it turns out!

// Doesn't have HBO but reads episode reviews, has read all the books

bhcompy:

I think that's the point.  ASoIaF is a response to the really awful state fantasy was in in the 80s and 90s with Dragonlance, Feist, Goodkind, etc.  Making it more real and less magical is what sold people on the books initially.

A bit off topic, but I thought Feist's last trilogy (where he wrapped up the Riftwar Cycle that he'd been writing for 30 odd years) was one of his strongest. That won't matter if you're a "I never liked his stuff" reader, but if you are a "His early stuff was pretty good" reader, you might enjoy them.
 
2014-04-28 03:20:57 PM  

nocturnal001: Shostie: AnubisMan: **************. Spoilers ***************

Who is Coldhands in all this mess?  Maybe this Night King is actually a Night Queen, it's hard to tell the gender of a white walker.  Coldhands calls Sam brother and wears Nights Watch blacks and is in fact dead but still walks around and has his own will.  Speculation...

************** End spoilers ***************

There's been speculation for a while that Coldhands is Benjen Stark.


A few theories have discussed why that doesn't make sense. That said, there should be some reason they Benjen was included in the series aside from being the guy who inspires Jon to join the watch.


Isn't it implied that Coldhands has been around for a really long time? I forget the exact reference though.
 
2014-04-28 03:22:28 PM  

bhcompy: error 303: Neat. Thanks. I'll make that my next big read. I had a hard time with the first 200 pages or so of Tad William's Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn books, but once it got going it became maybe my favorite fantasy series ever, so I don't mind a little confusing slog to start out with if the payoff is worth it.

Give it at least the first two books.  If you can't hang after the second book(which is one of the best in the series), then it's probably not going to work out.

nocturnal001: Well said. Book 1 had me wondering what I was doing until halfway through. The Chain of Dogs was some of the most compelling stuff I've read. I absolutely hated the Edur vs Letheri war until about 2/3 through then I wound up really enjoying it.

The Chain of Dogs is one of my favorite sequences in any book I've red.

And the Edur/Letherii war was just weird because it was a whole new world 5 books in.  Tehol Beddict is worth the price of admission, though, and without the war we wouldn't have Beak



I wound up really liking how what we thought was a key plot point of the war was actually pretty inconsequential in the grand scheme of things and the Tehol/Bugg dialogue was awesome. 


*spoiler


It really chapped my @ss when Laseen pardoned Korbolo Dom and Mallick Rel while allowing the pogrom against the Wickans. Of course I haven't found out what what happens to Kalam after he got dumped in the Azath.
 
2014-04-28 03:24:07 PM  

AnubisMan: **************. Spoilers ***************

Who is Coldhands in all this mess?  Maybe this Night King is actually a Night Queen, it's hard to tell the gender of a white walker.  Coldhands calls Sam brother and wears Nights Watch blacks and is in fact dead but still walks around and has his own will.  Speculation...

************** End spoilers ***************


I don't miss Coldhands and I'm perfectly fine with him not being in the TV show. This whole "yeah...some people are undead and still walk around and do stuff but still have their faculties about them so now they're even more of a badass" thing is dumb and the less we see of it in the TV show the better. But I hate the warging thing more. Oh, look! He's a warg and he's a warg and every goddamn Stark is a warg! Sure, why not!
 
2014-04-28 03:26:50 PM  

Decillion: You didn't hear it from me, but in select literary circles the word is that book 6 is done and being edited. The release delay and 'panic hype' is simply to maximize the profit on the book and show.


Wait, he has an editor? You could have fooled me after the last two books. Almost two thousand pages of basically nothing happening save for a handful of events that were delayed for 90 chapters for no reason or were introduced right at the end. I'm not saying I want them to be a snappy read a la Hunger Games, but damn.
 
2014-04-28 03:27:12 PM  
You're all going to be pissed off at the end.

Jon Snow marries Daenerys Targaryen. The Others show up and kill everyone.

/It'll be called the White Wedding.
 
2014-04-28 03:27:16 PM  

Lando Lincoln: Hey, wait a minute. Jon Snow wants to go capture or kill the Night's Watch defectors because he doesn't want them to blab to Mance Rayder about how few men are now guarding the Wall. But Mance was a member of the Night's Watch, so...how long ago did Mance leave the Night's Watch anyway? Did the Night's Watch take a serious dip in manpower since Mance left? Mance's raiders have killed other members of the Night's Watch recently, so why are we to assume that none of those members didn't already blab the information to Mance?


Over 300 rangers went out and got slaughtered at Fist of the First Men and/or at the mutiny at Craster's Keep

Also, Jon lied and convinced Mance that Castle Black had over 1000 fighters.  In reality it barely has over 100 men and most of those aren't rangers.  Basically its an small force of mostly cooks, scribes and new recruits. That's why they have to make sure the mutineers can't blab about how basically every seasoned fighter at castle black is already dead
 
2014-04-28 03:28:01 PM  

bhcompy: mongbiohazard: Yeah, I'm loving it but that's my biggest frustration with GoT. It's a swords and sorcery setting and there's a metric shiat-ton of swords (yay!) but very little sorcery (boo!). And by sorcery I just mean magic/fantastic stuff in general. There's a looooot of politics and scheming, but I'd really like to see more monsters and crazy magic shiat.

Mostly because they've teased so much about it. They show the White Walkers early in the show, and they've given you a glimpse or two here and there... but really they haven't done shiat. They're kind of a non-issue. The show woudn't be changed any if they were left out. So they're kind of a fantasy cock-tease. Dragons ahve been a little more involved... but still not a lot going on there either.

I think that's the point.  ASoIaF is a response to the really awful state fantasy was in in the 80s and 90s with Dragonlance, Feist, Goodkind, etc.  Making it more real and less magical is what sold people on the books initially.


That's why I got into it. My favorite scenes in GOT usually involve the Lannisters being dicks to each other or others. I'd say the show has the right amount of fantasy for my tastes.
 
2014-04-28 03:28:01 PM  

ShadowKamui: Lando Lincoln: DamnYankees: mekkab: /And HBO seems to be telling their own story, now...  and I'm OK with that.

I don't really see how that's true. What in this episode is contradictory to the books in any meaningful way? AFAIK, the last scene isn't so much a different story from the books, as it just shows us a scene which isn't in the books.

Jon Snow going to capture or kill the defectors was not in the books. It did not go down that way.

Coldhands kills them in the book and he's not in the TV show so gotta use somebody else.  Its just filler so they can push Mance's attack to episode 8 and doesn't diverge from the book by any real amount.  Now if Jon and Bran actually meet up then that actually changes the story

Most likely Bran and Co simply run out the back of the keep when Jon attacks and never actually see Jon


Yeah, I don't think that Jon and Bran are going to meet.

Bran: "Jon! It's good to see you! Now if you'll excuse us, we have to travel further north."
Jon: "What?! You'll do nothing of the sort! I'm not going to let my crippled little brother go into the middle of White Walker Central!"
Bran: "But you don't understand. I have to. My dreams told me so. And this other weird kid you never met thinks I should too."
Jon: "Oh...well...in that case...good luck!"
 
2014-04-28 03:29:25 PM  

ShadowKamui: Lando Lincoln: DamnYankees: mekkab: /And HBO seems to be telling their own story, now...  and I'm OK with that.

I don't really see how that's true. What in this episode is contradictory to the books in any meaningful way? AFAIK, the last scene isn't so much a different story from the books, as it just shows us a scene which isn't in the books.

Jon Snow going to capture or kill the defectors was not in the books. It did not go down that way.

Coldhands kills them in the book and he's not in the TV show so gotta use somebody else.  Its just filler so they can push Mance's attack to episode 8 and doesn't diverge from the book by any real amount.  Now if Jon and Bran actually meet up then that actually changes the story

Most likely Bran and Co simply run out the back of the keep when Jon attacks and never actually see Jon


Could it be a case of Coldhands killing them all to save Bran & Co? I don't really remember but I think they've met Coldhands by this point in the books, so this could serve as his introduction. Have Jon Snow arrive on the aftermath etc.
 
2014-04-28 03:30:09 PM  

ShadowKamui: Over 300 rangers went out and got slaughtered at Fist of the First Men and/or at the mutiny at Craster's Keep


And not one of them were captured for information.

Yeah, that seems reasonable.
 
2014-04-28 03:31:45 PM  

SkittlesAreYum: Decillion: You didn't hear it from me, but in select literary circles the word is that book 6 is done and being edited. The release delay and 'panic hype' is simply to maximize the profit on the book and show.

Wait, he has an editor? You could have fooled me after the last two books. Almost two thousand pages of basically nothing happening save for a handful of events that were delayed for 90 chapters for no reason or were introduced right at the end. I'm not saying I want them to be a snappy read a la Hunger Games, but damn.


As much as people seem to love these books and the story, I find it every bit as tedious as the middle books of the Wheel of Time series, just sexed up and with less likable characters. The story just doesn't seem to be actually GOING anywhere... sure, Daenerys seems to be making her push but I can't bring myself to care. With the way the big Houses have treated others (not just the other Houses but the common folk), I'm not sure that the White Walkers shouldn't just kill everybody and be done with it.
 
2014-04-28 03:32:08 PM  

nocturnal001: It really chapped my @ss when Laseen pardoned Korbolo Dom and Mallick Rel while allowing the pogrom against the Wickans. Of course I haven't found out what what happens to Kalam after he got dumped in the Azath.


To the first sentence, if you haven't read Ian Cameron Esslemont's Malazan books, I would suggest doing so.  To the second, it sounds like you haven't read the whole series yet?
 
2014-04-28 03:34:30 PM  

DamnYankees: drewsclues: It's not contradictory, but if the TFA is to be believed and they did reveal who that was in the end of the episode, it's the one of the most, if not the most significant reveals of the entire series (books and show) to date.

I'm not sure I agree with this. How is it meaningful to say that the leader of the White Walkers is the same person as the leader of the Night's Watch from a couple thousand years ago. Seems like a random connection to me, not anything insightful.


Really? Immortality is not meaningful?
 
2014-04-28 03:34:45 PM  

Lando Lincoln: ShadowKamui: Over 300 rangers went out and got slaughtered at Fist of the First Men and/or at the mutiny at Craster's Keep

And not one of them were captured for information.

Yeah, that seems reasonable.


Uh, Jon was, essentially.  Also hard to capture a bunch of dead men.
 
2014-04-28 03:34:54 PM  

commisioner: ShadowKamui: Lando Lincoln: DamnYankees: mekkab: /And HBO seems to be telling their own story, now...  and I'm OK with that.

I don't really see how that's true. What in this episode is contradictory to the books in any meaningful way? AFAIK, the last scene isn't so much a different story from the books, as it just shows us a scene which isn't in the books.

Jon Snow going to capture or kill the defectors was not in the books. It did not go down that way.

Coldhands kills them in the book and he's not in the TV show so gotta use somebody else.  Its just filler so they can push Mance's attack to episode 8 and doesn't diverge from the book by any real amount.  Now if Jon and Bran actually meet up then that actually changes the story

Most likely Bran and Co simply run out the back of the keep when Jon attacks and never actually see Jon

Could it be a case of Coldhands killing them all to save Bran & Co? I don't really remember but I think they've met Coldhands by this point in the books, so this could serve as his introduction. Have Jon Snow arrive on the aftermath etc.


Yeah they meet him right after they cross the wall but he wanders off for a bit at some point.  He shows up again out side of Craster's killing the mutineers and then leads Bran to the cave.

The only way Coldhands shows up at this point is if he attacks the back door of Craster's and frees Bran while Jon is attacking the front.
 
2014-04-28 03:35:41 PM  

Herr Docktor Heinrich Wisenheimer: You're all going to be pissed off at the end.

Jon Snow marries Daenerys Targaryen. The Others show up and kill everyone.

/It'll be called the White Wedding.


If the show trailed off with David Bowie in the background I'd unplug my TV and never watch another show again out of fear of my head asploding.

bhcompy: nocturnal001: It really chapped my @ss when Laseen pardoned Korbolo Dom and Mallick Rel while allowing the pogrom against the Wickans. Of course I haven't found out what what happens to Kalam after he got dumped in the Azath.

To the first sentence, if you haven't read Ian Cameron Esslemont's Malazan books, I would suggest doing so.  To the second, it sounds like you haven't read the whole series yet?


No, I'm not done. Book 7 right now.
 
2014-04-28 03:35:54 PM  

bborchar: Lando Lincoln: ShadowKamui: Over 300 rangers went out and got slaughtered at Fist of the First Men and/or at the mutiny at Craster's Keep

And not one of them were captured for information.

Yeah, that seems reasonable.

Uh, Jon was, essentially.  Also hard to capture question a bunch of dead men.


FTFM
 
2014-04-28 03:40:38 PM  

nocturnal001: No, I'm not done. Book 7 right now.


Oh, well, shiat.  I suggest picking up the ICE books and fitting them in within the narrative, as the items in those books dramatically help with the books you're reading.

Night of Knives is meant to be read before The Bonehunters(there are some cameos.. you're fine reading now, but you miss some stuff having read Bonehunters already that would have helped with Bonehunters).
Return of the Crimson Guard before Toll the Hounds.
 
2014-04-28 03:43:14 PM  

Lando Lincoln: ShadowKamui: Over 300 rangers went out and got slaughtered at Fist of the First Men and/or at the mutiny at Craster's Keep

And not one of them were captured for information.

Yeah, that seems reasonable.


The white walkers don't take prisoners alive and outside of Jon, Sam and those 2 that showed up last week; anyone still alive from that group of 300+ is hanging out at Craster's

Hence why Jon going to kill them
 
2014-04-28 03:43:29 PM  

GardenWeasel: Really? Immortality is not meaningful?


In the form of a White Walker? I kind of assumed they were immortal.
 
2014-04-28 03:48:09 PM  

nocturnal001: No, I'm not done. Book 7 right now.


Also, book 7 is my favorite to reread.  Without spoiling anything(all separate items): Beak, the Drum, and Hood-damned demon farmers.  So much win

/also Shurq Elalle
 
2014-04-28 03:50:14 PM  

Lando Lincoln: ShadowKamui: Over 300 rangers went out and got slaughtered at Fist of the First Men and/or at the mutiny at Craster's Keep

And not one of them were captured for information.

Yeah, that seems reasonable.


Ummm ... they were slaughtered by zombies. They don't do a lot of capturing and/or interrogating.
 
2014-04-28 03:52:45 PM  
For those of you that are wondering, the Night's King thing is a big deal because he's mentioned in the mythological stories of Westeros and possibly appears in a vision Bran has later.  It's in between a lot of useless bits so people gloss over it, but (assuming that HBO did let the cat out of the bag) readers will know to pay special attention now.

By itself it's not a lot to go on, but when you start tying it into things GRRM has said and what seems to be be coming at the end of the book, only a few of these scenes could really give the book away before GRRM is ready to make his big reveals.
 
2014-04-28 03:54:23 PM  

ShadowKamui: Lando Lincoln: ShadowKamui: Over 300 rangers went out and got slaughtered at Fist of the First Men and/or at the mutiny at Craster's Keep

And not one of them were captured for information.

Yeah, that seems reasonable.

The white walkers don't take prisoners alive and outside of Jon, Sam and those 2 that showed up last week; anyone still alive from that group of 300+ is hanging out at Craster's

Hence why Jon going to kill them


Sometimes I don't know why I bother.

Okay, so...let's assume for no real reason that no Night's Watch rangers have been taken prisoner by any of Mance's raiders in the past five years or so. Mance's raiders just suck that badly at this whole "gathering information" thing.

So...yeah...300 Crows come up north and this is a prime opportunity for Mance to grab two or three and get information out of them. But, again, Mance's raiders suck at this thing so in their lust for literally "eating Crow," they kill all of them except for a few that make it back to Craster's. And Jon Snow. Who they capture and one other guy, and Jon Snow kills the one other guy. The one other guy that they could corroborate information out of to verify that neither one was lying.

That seem pretty plausible to you?
 
2014-04-28 03:56:27 PM  

bborchar: Also hard to question a bunch of dead men.


Not in this world it's not. Well...it may be hard, but it's not impossible.
 
2014-04-28 04:00:56 PM  

Lando Lincoln: ShadowKamui: Lando Lincoln: ShadowKamui: Over 300 rangers went out and got slaughtered at Fist of the First Men and/or at the mutiny at Craster's Keep

And not one of them were captured for information.

Yeah, that seems reasonable.

The white walkers don't take prisoners alive and outside of Jon, Sam and those 2 that showed up last week; anyone still alive from that group of 300+ is hanging out at Craster's

Hence why Jon going to kill them

Sometimes I don't know why I bother.

Okay, so...let's assume for no real reason that no Night's Watch rangers have been taken prisoner by any of Mance's raiders in the past five years or so. Mance's raiders just suck that badly at this whole "gathering information" thing.

So...yeah...300 Crows come up north and this is a prime opportunity for Mance to grab two or three and get information out of them. But, again, Mance's raiders suck at this thing so in their lust for literally "eating Crow," they kill all of them except for a few that make it back to Craster's. And Jon Snow. Who they capture and one other guy, and Jon Snow kills the one other guy. The one other guy that they could corroborate information out of to verify that neither one was lying.

That seem pretty plausible to you?


Here's the difference:

These guys are mutineers.  They would easily betray the Night's Watch as they have nothing left to lose, especially if they were to be tortured.

Also, it's already established that Jon has an ulterior motive in wanting to find Bran if he can.  If Slynt and Thorne weren't so eager in trying to get rid of Snow, they would never have let him go.
 
2014-04-28 04:02:06 PM  
georgerrmartin.com
 
2014-04-28 04:02:22 PM  

bhcompy: nocturnal001: No, I'm not done. Book 7 right now.

Also, book 7 is my favorite to reread.  Without spoiling anything(all separate items): Beak, the Drum, and Hood-damned demon farmers.  So much win

/also Shurq Elalle


I'm currently on Toll the Hounds and book 7 was AWESOME.

If Beaks story line doesn't make you cry like a biatch, you're so dead inside I don't know why you keep on living.
 
2014-04-28 04:10:10 PM  

Lando Lincoln: That seem pretty plausible to you?


Kinda, yeah.

Mance has only just taken control of all the wildlings, it's likely before he took charge none of them bothered to take prisoners (wildlings don't seem to have much of a grasp of tactics). Add to that there hasn't been many rangings north of the wall recently and it's possible. Unlikely, but possible.
 
2014-04-28 04:11:27 PM  

Lando Lincoln: Okay, so...let's assume for no real reason that no Night's Watch rangers have been taken prisoner by any of Mance's raiders in the past five years or so. Mance's raiders just suck that badly at this whole "gathering information" thing.

So...yeah...300 Crows come up north and this is a prime opportunity for Mance to grab two or three and get information out of them. But, again, Mance's raiders suck at this thing so in their lust for literally "eating Crow," they kill all of them except for a few that make it back to Craster's. And Jon Snow. Who they capture and one other guy, and Jon Snow kills the one other guy. The one other guy that they could corroborate information out of to verify that neither one was lying.

That seem pretty plausible to you?


The wildlings had all pulled out and gathered in the valley which was no where near where Craster's or the Fist of the First Men. There was no opportunity for capture of crows.

When Thorin's party did approach the valley they were captured and interrogated ... but they did not know about the slaughter at the Fist and Jon lied about the numbers back at Castle Black.

So, unless they can teleport around to hunt down crows, it is not unreasonable that they only captured the ones that they were actually near.
 
2014-04-28 04:17:16 PM  

commisioner: JolobinSmokin: So have Tavi gotten control of his fury's yet?

I haven't watched this season.

captainamerica.jpg

I get that reference


As do I. And I'm stealing the joke someone else made about GOT just transitioning to WOT.
 
2014-04-28 04:19:10 PM  

nocturnal001: The Chain of Dogs was some of the most compelling stuff I've read.


The Chain of Dogs was awesome, and then I liked the story of the Bonehunters even more.
 
2014-04-28 04:21:15 PM  

Lando Lincoln: So...yeah...300 Crows come up north and this is a prime opportunity for Mance to grab two or three and get information out of them. But, again, Mance's raiders suck at this thing so in their lust for literally "eating Crow," they kill all of them except for a few that make it back to Craster's


mance's guys only found the ranger crew after the walkers had killed them. they never actually fought any of the nights watch. the guys who made it back to crastors are way ahead of the slow moving army of the wildlings
 
2014-04-28 04:22:30 PM  

EnormousGreenRageMonster: Decillion: You didn't hear it from me, but in select literary circles the word is that book 6 is done and being edited. The release delay and 'panic hype' is simply to maximize the profit on the book and show.

That would explain why he hasn't mentioned it in months on his blog (previously he'd throw in a "got another chapter done" or something every once in a while). Instead every post has been about anthologies and that damn movie theatre he bought which sucks away so much good ASoIaF writing time!


The other explanation would be that he just doesn't give a fark about finishing, which would fit in with all of the other evidence.  It doesn't seem like he's even writing at this point.  Even the most recent teaser chapter...wasn't that written like a decade ago?
 
2014-04-28 04:22:59 PM  

Lando Lincoln: ShadowKamui: Over 300 rangers went out and got slaughtered at Fist of the First Men and/or at the mutiny at Craster's Keep

And not one of them were captured for information.

Yeah, that seems reasonable.


They were attacked and killed by the Others, not the Wildlings.
 
2014-04-28 04:23:08 PM  

Superjew: Ow! That was my feelings!: all I can think of is Robert Jordan. Finish it and I'll read it.

The crucial difference here is that the Wheel Of Time books were a huge pile of crap from the get-go, while the Game of Thrones books are each awesome as individual books.

If you don't read them because you're afraid there's a possibility that they won't get ended, then you are depriving yourself of at least 5 fantastic reads.

Also, you may want to not start watching any Star Wars movies.


All you need to do is read the 5th book.  It mentions every single thing that happens in all the previous books and will waste much much less of your time.  Some of the events are actually retold in a near word for word copy and paste.

I can't remember if you will be spared the page after page of him actually talking about the roots of a tree growing. But if you are somehow a tree root fetishist, you could look it up.

Seriously, don't read the books.
 
2014-04-28 04:29:40 PM  

Tricky Chicken: Superjew: Ow! That was my feelings!: all I can think of is Robert Jordan. Finish it and I'll read it.

The crucial difference here is that the Wheel Of Time books were a huge pile of crap from the get-go, while the Game of Thrones books are each awesome as individual books.

If you don't read them because you're afraid there's a possibility that they won't get ended, then you are depriving yourself of at least 5 fantastic reads.

Also, you may want to not start watching any Star Wars movies.

All you need to do is read the 5th book.  It mentions every single thing that happens in all the previous books and will waste much much less of your time.  Some of the events are actually retold in a near word for word copy and paste.

I can't remember if you will be spared the page after page of him actually talking about the roots of a tree growing. But if you are somehow a tree root fetishist, you could look it up.

Seriously, don't read the books.


Are you talking about WoT?  I don't know why you'd skip the first books, those were some of the best, 1-3 certainly.  Skip the middle instead, 6-9 or something, just read the cliffnotes if you're tight on time.  I'm not sure they're that bad if you don't have to wait in between books though, I think a lot of the pain for me was waiting 2-3 years, then the book having very little actual progress towards anything.
 
2014-04-28 04:29:41 PM  

DamnYankees: Lando Lincoln: Jon Snow going to capture or kill the defectors was not in the books. It did not go down that way.

Yeah, but that's old news, and they are clearly just using that plot to stall for time.


That's what I don't get, clearly there are multiple wildling groups South of the wall, and no one gives two shiats? There was an urgency in the book with Jon Snow getting people at Castle Black ready for an attack. These guys just seem to be jerking each other off.
 
2014-04-28 04:32:41 PM  

Tricky Chicken: All you need to do is read the 5th book.  It mentions every single thing that happens in all the previous books and will waste much much less of your time.


Guess how I can tell you don't really like the act of reading all that much.
 
2014-04-28 04:34:18 PM  

akula: SkittlesAreYum: Decillion: You didn't hear it from me, but in select literary circles the word is that book 6 is done and being edited. The release delay and 'panic hype' is simply to maximize the profit on the book and show.

Wait, he has an editor? You could have fooled me after the last two books. Almost two thousand pages of basically nothing happening save for a handful of events that were delayed for 90 chapters for no reason or were introduced right at the end. I'm not saying I want them to be a snappy read a la Hunger Games, but damn.

As much as people seem to love these books and the story, I find it every bit as tedious as the middle books of the Wheel of Time series, just sexed up and with less likable characters. The story just doesn't seem to be actually GOING anywhere... sure, Daenerys seems to be making her push but I can't bring myself to care. With the way the big Houses have treated others (not just the other Houses but the common folk), I'm not sure that the White Walkers shouldn't just kill everybody and be done with it.


There's a direct corrolation between people's love of the books and the amount of time they spent on it.
Some folks can't admit that after Storm of Swords, GRRM ran out of gas.
If the quality of the last 2 books are any indication, I have no problem with HBO picking up the story and finishing it up.
 
2014-04-28 04:35:42 PM  

Abner Doon: Tricky Chicken: Superjew: Ow! That was my feelings!: all I can think of is Robert Jordan. Finish it and I'll read it.

The crucial difference here is that the Wheel Of Time books were a huge pile of crap from the get-go, while the Game of Thrones books are each awesome as individual books.

If you don't read them because you're afraid there's a possibility that they won't get ended, then you are depriving yourself of at least 5 fantastic reads.

Also, you may want to not start watching any Star Wars movies.

All you need to do is read the 5th book.  It mentions every single thing that happens in all the previous books and will waste much much less of your time.  Some of the events are actually retold in a near word for word copy and paste.

I can't remember if you will be spared the page after page of him actually talking about the roots of a tree growing. But if you are somehow a tree root fetishist, you could look it up.

Seriously, don't read the books.

Are you talking about WoT?  I don't know why you'd skip the first books, those were some of the best, 1-3 certainly.  Skip the middle instead, 6-9 or something, just read the cliffnotes if you're tight on time.  I'm not sure they're that bad if you don't have to wait in between books though, I think a lot of the pain for me was waiting 2-3 years, then the book having very little actual progress towards anything.


I got tired of the endless re-telling of the same scenes over and over. then there is the 5-10 pages he goes on and on about the bread they are eating that day. Or how many times do i have to be told how fresh the thrushes are on the floor of any given room? And will somebody please punch him once in the crotch for every time he uses half to describe anything? Half a man high, Shorter by half, Half a day. Half a month,
 
2014-04-28 04:39:04 PM  

pedobearapproved: DamnYankees: Lando Lincoln: Jon Snow going to capture or kill the defectors was not in the books. It did not go down that way.

Yeah, but that's old news, and they are clearly just using that plot to stall for time.

That's what I don't get, clearly there are multiple wildling groups South of the wall, and no one gives two shiats? There was an urgency in the book with Jon Snow getting people at Castle Black ready for an attack. These guys just seem to be jerking each other off.


In the books, Bowen Marsh fell for the feints and scattered the Watch out...but they've changed it now.  Now Jon won't be left in charge of the Wall because no one else is there...so it makes sense to make him leader of mission to show his leadership skills.  The leaders at Castle Black know they can't take the bait and leave to go after the Wildling bands (who will come to them, in any case).    Basically, they've changed the time frame from the book to the show to help span it out over the season.
 
2014-04-28 04:39:49 PM  

Dwight_Yeast: DamnYankees: He's farked. Unless he's been writing the last 2 simultaneously, there's no way he'll be done by 2018, which is when the show is slated to finish.

Well, that may be what's happening after a fashion.  At a recent book signing Martin read from a history of Westeros, which he called "an ongoing project".  If such a thing exists, it could serve as an outline for the rest of the show either for the showrunners to work from or for ghostwriters to develop the next couple of novels.

Something similar exists in the Star Wars universe and it's thousands of pages long at this point.


The one for Star Wars was recently set on fire, though.
 
2014-04-28 04:40:16 PM  

Superjew: Tricky Chicken: All you need to do is read the 5th book.  It mentions every single thing that happens in all the previous books and will waste much much less of your time.

Guess how I can tell you don't really like the act of reading all that much.


I love reading. I just don't love reading the same conversation over and over, or constant flashbacks so detailed, that you can skip whold books and not miss anything.

If you were to watch the DVDs like the books, you would have to watch them in this order
Disc 1
Disc 2
Half of Disc 1
Disc 3
Disc2
Disc 4
Disc 1
Disc 3
Disc 5
Disc 2
Disc 4
Half of disc 6
Disc 3
Disc 5
The rest of disc 6
Disc 4
Disc 3
Disc 7
 
2014-04-28 04:42:40 PM  

Abner Doon: Tricky Chicken: Superjew: Ow! That was my feelings!: all I can think of is Robert Jordan. Finish it and I'll read it.

The crucial difference here is that the Wheel Of Time books were a huge pile of crap from the get-go, while the Game of Thrones books are each awesome as individual books.

If you don't read them because you're afraid there's a possibility that they won't get ended, then you are depriving yourself of at least 5 fantastic reads.

Also, you may want to not start watching any Star Wars movies.

All you need to do is read the 5th book.  It mentions every single thing that happens in all the previous books and will waste much much less of your time.  Some of the events are actually retold in a near word for word copy and paste.

I can't remember if you will be spared the page after page of him actually talking about the roots of a tree growing. But if you are somehow a tree root fetishist, you could look it up.

Seriously, don't read the books.

Are you talking about WoT?  I don't know why you'd skip the first books, those were some of the best, 1-3 certainly.  Skip the middle instead, 6-9 or something, just read the cliffnotes if you're tight on time.  I'm not sure they're that bad if you don't have to wait in between books though, I think a lot of the pain for me was waiting 2-3 years, then the book having very little actual progress towards anything.


As somebody who recently read them mostly all at once (over a 9-month period, which is probably quickly for the series), I'd say that is partly right. If you are tight on time, most of the middle books, particularly 8 or 9, can be skipped, leaving the more exciting bookends to read. But OTOH, if you are tight on time, you probably shouldn't be reading the series at all. Part of the reason I read it was the sheer volume of writing it had, and if you have spare time you aren't quite sure what to do with, the series is a great way to burn it. It may be worth it, at least for the satisfying ways some of the minor plots tie in to The Last Battle.

The first book is one of those that make no sense upon the first reading, though, so be wary.

/I agree that either 8 or 9 is a huge timewaster where absolutely nothing of import, to either character development or plot occurred, and why it was even written. Most people complain that much of the stories consist of characters whining or walking in circles accomplishing nothing, and that book takes it up to 11.
 
2014-04-28 04:46:04 PM  

Lando Lincoln: ShadowKamui: Lando Lincoln: ShadowKamui: Over 300 rangers went out and got slaughtered at Fist of the First Men and/or at the mutiny at Craster's Keep

And not one of them were captured for information.

Yeah, that seems reasonable.

The white walkers don't take prisoners alive and outside of Jon, Sam and those 2 that showed up last week; anyone still alive from that group of 300+ is hanging out at Craster's

Hence why Jon going to kill them

Sometimes I don't know why I bother.

Okay, so...let's assume for no real reason that no Night's Watch rangers have been taken prisoner by any of Mance's raiders in the past five years or so. Mance's raiders just suck that badly at this whole "gathering information" thing.

So...yeah...300 Crows come up north and this is a prime opportunity for Mance to grab two or three and get information out of them. But, again, Mance's raiders suck at this thing so in their lust for literally "eating Crow," they kill all of them except for a few that make it back to Craster's. And Jon Snow. Who they capture and one other guy, and Jon Snow kills the one other guy. The one other guy that they could corroborate information out of to verify that neither one was lying.

That seem pretty plausible to you?


The Wildlings are south west of the Fist and treat that whole area as zombie infested no mans lands, they would never run into the Castle Black rangers.  Mance's whole army is hiding in the Frostfangs which means that any crows they would encounter would be from the Shadow Tower (like Halfhand's group).  The Shadow Tower folks really don't have that much detail on the daily happenings at Castle Black, and definitely don't know that pretty much every veteran at Castle Black is now dead.

Worst case a Shadow Tower crow would say Jon's exaggerating and its more like 500-600 rather than over a 1000 (assuming they could break a loyal crow).  Mances army isn't that good (just a lot of them) and they're attacking the Shadow Tower, Castle Black and Eastwatch.  If Mance knew how pathetic Castle Black was he either would send a smaller army at Castle Black and try to storm the other 2 w/ more men, or he would just send everything at Castle Black since it can quickly be steam rolled then take the other 2 later.
 
2014-04-28 04:46:59 PM  
Superjew:
If you don't read them because you're afraid there's a possibility that they won't get ended, then you are depriving yourself of at least 5 fantastic reads.

Two fantastic reads. Two good reads. One mediocre read.
 
2014-04-28 04:50:31 PM  

bhcompy: error 303: Neat. Thanks. I'll make that my next big read. I had a hard time with the first 200 pages or so of Tad William's Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn books, but once it got going it became maybe my favorite fantasy series ever, so I don't mind a little confusing slog to start out with if the payoff is worth it.

Give it at least the first two books.  If you can't hang after the second book(which is one of the best in the series), then it's probably not going to work out.

nocturnal001: Well said. Book 1 had me wondering what I was doing until halfway through. The Chain of Dogs was some of the most compelling stuff I've read. I absolutely hated the Edur vs Letheri war until about 2/3 through then I wound up really enjoying it.

The Chain of Dogs is one of my favorite sequences in any book I've red.

And the Edur/Letherii war was just weird because it was a whole new world 5 books in.  Tehol Beddict is worth the price of admission, though, and without the war we wouldn't have Beak


OK. I'll be that guy. Chain of Dogs and the Night of Knives sequence with Kalaam were great, but the rest of the Malazan books felt like a waste of time to me. There was no payoff to the story with 90% of the previous books becoming meaningless with the ending with the Crippled God.


As to ASoFaI, I read through Feast and gave it up. I have no confidence that GRRM knows how to get to any ending for the series. He gave an ending to the HBO people but has no clue how to get there with the novels.
 
2014-04-28 04:52:03 PM  

Lando Lincoln: Enlightened Liberal: I wish HBO's makeup artists/costume designers came up with something better than Ice Darth Maul for the Night's King.

It was either Darth Maul or the Lich King from Lord of the Rings. Which would you have preferred?


Lich King please.
 
2014-04-28 04:53:48 PM  

bborchar: Lando Lincoln: ShadowKamui: Lando Lincoln: ShadowKamui: Over 300 rangers went out and got slaughtered at Fist of the First Men and/or at the mutiny at Craster's Keep

And not one of them were captured for information.

Yeah, that seems reasonable.

The white walkers don't take prisoners alive and outside of Jon, Sam and those 2 that showed up last week; anyone still alive from that group of 300+ is hanging out at Craster's

Hence why Jon going to kill them

Sometimes I don't know why I bother.

Okay, so...let's assume for no real reason that no Night's Watch rangers have been taken prisoner by any of Mance's raiders in the past five years or so. Mance's raiders just suck that badly at this whole "gathering information" thing.

So...yeah...300 Crows come up north and this is a prime opportunity for Mance to grab two or three and get information out of them. But, again, Mance's raiders suck at this thing so in their lust for literally "eating Crow," they kill all of them except for a few that make it back to Craster's. And Jon Snow. Who they capture and one other guy, and Jon Snow kills the one other guy. The one other guy that they could corroborate information out of to verify that neither one was lying.

That seem pretty plausible to you?

Here's the difference:

These guys are mutineers.  They would easily betray the Night's Watch as they have nothing left to lose, especially if they were to be tortured.

Also, it's already established that Jon has an ulterior motive in wanting to find Bran if he can.  If Slynt and Thorne weren't so eager in trying to get rid of Snow, they would never have let him go.


Wait a minute! Did Sam tell Jon about his brother? (Haven't watched this episode yet, read books)

In the books Sam doesn't because he promised Bran he wouldn't, I believe it's the same in the show as well unless Sam spilled the beans last night...

Now that is a change I don't like,
 
2014-04-28 04:56:13 PM  

Ow! That was my feelings!: Jews for Hitler: I missed the last two episodes. Has Dumbledore been killed off yet?

Yep. He was strangled by Gandolf.

Oops! Spoilers!


Strangled by Gandolf's dick maybe.
 
2014-04-28 04:56:23 PM  

Communist_Manifesto: bhcompy: nocturnal001: No, I'm not done. Book 7 right now.

Also, book 7 is my favorite to reread.  Without spoiling anything(all separate items): Beak, the Drum, and Hood-damned demon farmers.  So much win

/also Shurq Elalle

I'm currently on Toll the Hounds and book 7 was AWESOME.

If Beaks story line doesn't make you cry like a biatch, you're so dead inside I don't know why you keep on living.


Excellent, looks like I have some good stuff ahead.
 
2014-04-28 04:57:44 PM  

ShadowKamui: Lando Lincoln: ShadowKamui: Lando Lincoln: ShadowKamui: Over 300 rangers went out and got slaughtered at Fist of the First Men and/or at the mutiny at Craster's Keep

And not one of them were captured for information.

Yeah, that seems reasonable.

The white walkers don't take prisoners alive and outside of Jon, Sam and those 2 that showed up last week; anyone still alive from that group of 300+ is hanging out at Craster's

Hence why Jon going to kill them

Sometimes I don't know why I bother.

Okay, so...let's assume for no real reason that no Night's Watch rangers have been taken prisoner by any of Mance's raiders in the past five years or so. Mance's raiders just suck that badly at this whole "gathering information" thing.

So...yeah...300 Crows come up north and this is a prime opportunity for Mance to grab two or three and get information out of them. But, again, Mance's raiders suck at this thing so in their lust for literally "eating Crow," they kill all of them except for a few that make it back to Craster's. And Jon Snow. Who they capture and one other guy, and Jon Snow kills the one other guy. The one other guy that they could corroborate information out of to verify that neither one was lying.

That seem pretty plausible to you?

The Wildlings are south west of the Fist and treat that whole area as zombie infested no mans lands, they would never run into the Castle Black rangers.  Mance's whole army is hiding in the Frostfangs which means that any crows they would encounter would be from the Shadow Tower (like Halfhand's group).  The Shadow Tower folks really don't have that much detail on the daily happenings at Castle Black, and definitely don't know that pretty much every veteran at Castle Black is now dead.

Worst case a Shadow Tower crow would say Jon's exaggerating and its more like 500-600 rather than over a 1000 (assuming they could break a loyal crow).  Mances army isn't that good (just a lot of them) and they're attacking the Shadow Tower, Castl ...


I never understood why he didn't just send a bunch more people to scale the wall and hold the top while the other raiding parties try to take Castle Black. All the defense mounted by the NW are at the top of the wall. If they can't defeat the Castle Black garrison, they can at least prevent the nights watch from destroying the siege equipment Mance wants to use to assault the gates.
 
2014-04-28 04:59:04 PM  

commisioner: JolobinSmokin: So have Tavi gotten control of his fury's yet?

I haven't watched this season.

i1.ytimg.com

I get that reference




Gotta catch'em all!
 
2014-04-28 04:59:04 PM  

Jim from Saint Paul: Ow! That was my feelings!: Jews for Hitler: I missed the last two episodes. Has Dumbledore been killed off yet?

Yep. He was strangled by Gandolf.

Oops! Spoilers!

Strangled by Gandolf's dick maybe.


Heh, now. There will be a hockey thread shortly for your hate to flow through...
 
2014-04-28 05:02:45 PM  
DeathByGeekSquad:
WoT seems to get off track, but by the end of the series you'll go, "OOOOOOH" and realize that it was necessary.  It's not graceful, but it's necessary.

No. Just no. There is no farking way that many books where damn near nothing happened were necessary. book 6 or 7 through book 11 could have easily been 1 to 2 books.
 
2014-04-28 05:02:59 PM  
redmid17: .....
I never understood why he didn't just send a bunch more people to scale the wall and hold the top while the other raiding parties try to take Castle Black. All the defense mounted by the NW are at the top of the wall. If they can't defeat the Castle Black garrison, they can at least prevent the nights watch from destroying the siege equipment Mance wants to use to assault the gates.

Mance is a terrible commander, they should have just busted down the gates to the Night Fort, or was that a "hidden" gate?
 
2014-04-28 05:05:04 PM  

shortymac: bborchar: Lando Lincoln: ShadowKamui: Lando Lincoln: ShadowKamui: Over 300 rangers went out and got slaughtered at Fist of the First Men and/or at the mutiny at Craster's Keep

And not one of them were captured for information.

Yeah, that seems reasonable.

The white walkers don't take prisoners alive and outside of Jon, Sam and those 2 that showed up last week; anyone still alive from that group of 300+ is hanging out at Craster's

Hence why Jon going to kill them

Sometimes I don't know why I bother.

Okay, so...let's assume for no real reason that no Night's Watch rangers have been taken prisoner by any of Mance's raiders in the past five years or so. Mance's raiders just suck that badly at this whole "gathering information" thing.

So...yeah...300 Crows come up north and this is a prime opportunity for Mance to grab two or three and get information out of them. But, again, Mance's raiders suck at this thing so in their lust for literally "eating Crow," they kill all of them except for a few that make it back to Craster's. And Jon Snow. Who they capture and one other guy, and Jon Snow kills the one other guy. The one other guy that they could corroborate information out of to verify that neither one was lying.

That seem pretty plausible to you?

Here's the difference:

These guys are mutineers.  They would easily betray the Night's Watch as they have nothing left to lose, especially if they were to be tortured.

Also, it's already established that Jon has an ulterior motive in wanting to find Bran if he can.  If Slynt and Thorne weren't so eager in trying to get rid of Snow, they would never have let him go.

Wait a minute! Did Sam tell Jon about his brother? (Haven't watched this episode yet, read books)

In the books Sam doesn't because he promised Bran he wouldn't, I believe it's the same in the show as well unless Sam spilled the beans last night...

Now that is a change I don't like,


In the show, Sam never makes a promise to Bran that he won't tell Jon.  He just asks him to let them go.  We find out that Sam told Jon about Bran while Jon was on his sickbed, and Jon says that when he found out, he wanted to heal faster so that he could go after him (before he came to his senses about it).  It makes sense in this version.  Really, I never thought it made sense for Sam to keep it from Jon in the book version, either, promise or no promise.  I don't know what the ripple effect will be at this point, but it's definitely made it interesting.
 
2014-04-28 05:05:54 PM  

shortymac: bborchar: Lando Lincoln: ShadowKamui: Lando Lincoln: ShadowKamui: Over 300 rangers went out and got slaughtered at Fist of the First Men and/or at the mutiny at Craster's Keep

And not one of them were captured for information.

Yeah, that seems reasonable.

The white walkers don't take prisoners alive and outside of Jon, Sam and those 2 that showed up last week; anyone still alive from that group of 300+ is hanging out at Craster's

Hence why Jon going to kill them

Sometimes I don't know why I bother.

Okay, so...let's assume for no real reason that no Night's Watch rangers have been taken prisoner by any of Mance's raiders in the past five years or so. Mance's raiders just suck that badly at this whole "gathering information" thing.

So...yeah...300 Crows come up north and this is a prime opportunity for Mance to grab two or three and get information out of them. But, again, Mance's raiders suck at this thing so in their lust for literally "eating Crow," they kill all of them except for a few that make it back to Craster's. And Jon Snow. Who they capture and one other guy, and Jon Snow kills the one other guy. The one other guy that they could corroborate information out of to verify that neither one was lying.

That seem pretty plausible to you?

Here's the difference:

These guys are mutineers.  They would easily betray the Night's Watch as they have nothing left to lose, especially if they were to be tortured.

Also, it's already established that Jon has an ulterior motive in wanting to find Bran if he can.  If Slynt and Thorne weren't so eager in trying to get rid of Snow, they would never have let him go.

Wait a minute! Did Sam tell Jon about his brother? (Haven't watched this episode yet, read books)

In the books Sam doesn't because he promised Bran he wouldn't, I believe it's the same in the show as well unless Sam spilled the beans last night...

Now that is a change I don't like,


Yes.
 
2014-04-28 05:06:15 PM  

stoli n coke: akula: SkittlesAreYum: Decillion: You didn't hear it from me, but in select literary circles the word is that book 6 is done and being edited. The release delay and 'panic hype' is simply to maximize the profit on the book and show.

Wait, he has an editor? You could have fooled me after the last two books. Almost two thousand pages of basically nothing happening save for a handful of events that were delayed for 90 chapters for no reason or were introduced right at the end. I'm not saying I want them to be a snappy read a la Hunger Games, but damn.

As much as people seem to love these books and the story, I find it every bit as tedious as the middle books of the Wheel of Time series, just sexed up and with less likable characters. The story just doesn't seem to be actually GOING anywhere... sure, Daenerys seems to be making her push but I can't bring myself to care. With the way the big Houses have treated others (not just the other Houses but the common folk), I'm not sure that the White Walkers shouldn't just kill everybody and be done with it.

There's a direct corrolation between people's love of the books and the amount of time they spent on it.
Some folks can't admit that after Storm of Swords, GRRM ran out of gas.
If the quality of the last 2 books are any indication, I have no problem with HBO picking up the story and finishing it up.


Exactly. The first three were really, really good, especially SoS. After that...
 
2014-04-28 05:10:38 PM  

patrick767: DeathByGeekSquad:
WoT seems to get off track, but by the end of the series you'll go, "OOOOOOH" and realize that it was necessary.  It's not graceful, but it's necessary.

No. Just no. There is no farking way that many books where damn near nothing happened were necessary. book 6 or 7 through book 11 could have easily been 1 to 2 books.


the whole bowl of winds thing was completely pointless.  There was enough crap going on from the dark one trying to release himself you didn't need to add a couple books of finding and using it.  Sanderson pretty much had to go uhh... yeah and some of the minor characters sat around babysitting it in the last battle so random storms wouldn't screw everyone, NEXT!
 
2014-04-28 05:13:17 PM  

Tricky Chicken: Superjew: Ow! That was my feelings!: all I can think of is Robert Jordan. Finish it and I'll read it.

The crucial difference here is that the Wheel Of Time books were a huge pile of crap from the get-go, while the Game of Thrones books are each awesome as individual books.

If you don't read them because you're afraid there's a possibility that they won't get ended, then you are depriving yourself of at least 5 fantastic reads.

Also, you may want to not start watching any Star Wars movies.

All you need to do is read the 5th book.  It mentions every single thing that happens in all the previous books and will waste much much less of your time.  Some of the events are actually retold in a near word for word copy and paste.

I can't remember if you will be spared the page after page of him actually talking about the roots of a tree growing. But if you are somehow a tree root fetishist, you could look it up.

Seriously, don't read the books.


You people WISH Martin would pull a Jordan.

You know, leave the ending thoughly polotted out and mostly written?

Hire a competent writer in case you died to finish it?

Here's the bit, Bokks 7 and 8 AND 9 and 10 could both have been combined into 2 books. No doubt. The rest of the books are awesome, epic .... oh and COMPLETE.
 
2014-04-28 05:16:24 PM  

Ow! That was my feelings!: Jim from Saint Paul: Ow! That was my feelings!: Jews for Hitler: I missed the last two episodes. Has Dumbledore been killed off yet?

Yep. He was strangled by Gandolf.

Oops! Spoilers!

Strangled by Gandolf's dick maybe.

Heh, now. There will be a hockey thread shortly for your hate to flow through...


It was a gay joke, not a hate joke. ;)

Wild series is over even if they win tonight.

You can beat an average team and shiatty refs. You can be a good team with good refs. shiatty refs and Good Team is too much. Wild simply aren't talented enough to make that happen.

If we pull through, I won;t be all "HAHA IN YOUR FACE" because I'll be too busy sitting there flaberghasted.
 
2014-04-28 05:18:22 PM  

WhatFarkHandle: OK. I'll be that guy. Chain of Dogs and the Night of Knives sequence with Kalaam were great, but the rest of the Malazan books felt like a waste of time to me. There was no payoff to the story with 90% of the previous books becoming meaningless with the ending with the Crippled God.


I thought the ending wasn't as strong as other parts of the series, but I also felt satisfied.  More importantly, as Stephen King has noted multiple times, and I agree with him, it's the journey that matters.  Gesler and Stormy had me laughing for days.  Karsa had me hating the hell out of him and then loving the hell out of him.  Minor characters like Beak, Duiker, Korbal Broach/Bauchelain/Emancipor Reese, Itkovian, etc have positively added to my enjoyment and the color in my life.

Nearly ever book is ultimately meaningless, they're just words on paper with no consequence towards our existence.  The fact that things happened in a book that doesn't directly tie in to the ending doesn't bother me at all, because I enjoyed the entire journey.
 
2014-04-28 05:20:30 PM  

Lando Lincoln: ShadowKamui: Over 300 rangers went out and got slaughtered at Fist of the First Men and/or at the mutiny at Craster's Keep

And not one of them were captured for information.

Yeah, that seems reasonable.


They were killed by the White Walkers and/or each other, not by Wildlings.
 
2014-04-28 05:26:51 PM  

Verrai: Lando Lincoln: ShadowKamui: Over 300 rangers went out and got slaughtered at Fist of the First Men and/or at the mutiny at Craster's Keep

And not one of them were captured for information.

Yeah, that seems reasonable.

They were killed by the White Walkers and/or each other, not by Wildlings.


I'm gonna have to go back and watch that episode. I remember that Jon got lost and was captured. I remember that the other guy was also captured and the Wildlings just let them try to kill each other like a bunch of dumbasses. I remember that Sam was lost in the fog and was...let go?...by the White Walkers. Apparently, Sam was too fat to become a decent zombie and the White Walkers didn't feel like killing him. Or they're just so super badass and cocky that they wanted one to live to spread the word that the White Walkers were back in town. I dunno.
 
2014-04-28 05:27:34 PM  

Lando Lincoln: BalugaJoe: He is a fat guy.  Give him more food to write faster.

Fatness does not work that way. Lock him in a cell and deny him ice cream and fried food until he finishes the book and you'll have that sixth book finished in no time.


Yeah, but it would consist entirely of obsessively detailed meal descriptions.
 
2014-04-28 05:31:02 PM  

Tricky Chicken: Superjew: Tricky Chicken: All you need to do is read the 5th book.  It mentions every single thing that happens in all the previous books and will waste much much less of your time.

Guess how I can tell you don't really like the act of reading all that much.

I love reading. I just don't love reading the same conversation over and over, or constant flashbacks so detailed, that you can skip whold books and not miss anything.

If you were to watch the DVDs like the books, you would have to watch them in this order
Disc 1
Disc 2
Half of Disc 1
Disc 3
Disc2
Disc 4
Disc 1
Disc 3
Disc 5
Disc 2
Disc 4
Half of disc 6
Disc 3
Disc 5
The rest of disc 6
Disc 4
Disc 3
Disc 7


Yes, because TV and film never employ flashbacks and are linear only...
 
2014-04-28 05:33:46 PM  

Jim from Saint Paul: Ow! That was my feelings!: Jim from Saint Paul: Ow! That was my feelings!: Jews for Hitler: I missed the last two episodes. Has Dumbledore been killed off yet?

Yep. He was strangled by Gandolf.

Oops! Spoilers!

Strangled by Gandolf's dick maybe.

Heh, now. There will be a hockey thread shortly for your hate to flow through...

It was a gay joke, not a hate joke. ;)

Wild series is over even if they win tonight.

You can beat an average team and shiatty refs. You can be a good team with good refs. shiatty refs and Good Team is too much. Wild simply aren't talented enough to make that happen.

If we pull through, I won;t be all "HAHA IN YOUR FACE" because I'll be too busy sitting there flaberghasted.


C'mon. It's been a poorly officiated series for sure, but the Avs have gotten the ass too. Wild win tonight, unless Duchene's return ignites the PP, and we go to a game 7. Series is still a toss up.
 
2014-04-28 05:34:37 PM  

Lando Lincoln: Verrai: Lando Lincoln: ShadowKamui: Over 300 rangers went out and got slaughtered at Fist of the First Men and/or at the mutiny at Craster's Keep

And not one of them were captured for information.

Yeah, that seems reasonable.

They were killed by the White Walkers and/or each other, not by Wildlings.

I'm gonna have to go back and watch that episode. I remember that Jon got lost and was captured. I remember that the other guy was also captured and the Wildlings just let them try to kill each other like a bunch of dumbasses. I remember that Sam was lost in the fog and was...let go?...by the White Walkers. Apparently, Sam was too fat to become a decent zombie and the White Walkers didn't feel like killing him. Or they're just so super badass and cocky that they wanted one to live to spread the word that the White Walkers were back in town. I dunno.


The other guy was a Shadow Tower crow, they leave the Fist to go hunt down some Wildlings the Shadow Tower patrol saw when meeting up w/ the Castle Black army at the Fist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ghost_of_Harrenhal

The Castle Black rangers don't get attacked by white walkers till here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valar_Morghulis
 
2014-04-28 05:36:30 PM  

Blues_X: nocturnal001: and people keep yelling at me to read the Wheel of Time.


These people are not your friends.


THIS! STAY AWAY!

I read the rest of them after it got really boring because I just had to know how it turned out. I do not know why. Actually I finally gave up after book 10. I abandoned the series until Robert Jordan died and the second book that Brandon Sanderson wrote had come out. Then I finally read Jordan's last one and Sanderson's concluding books.
 
2014-04-28 05:36:47 PM  

jso2897: Lando Lincoln: BalugaJoe: He is a fat guy.  Give him more food to write faster.

Fatness does not work that way. Lock him in a cell and deny him ice cream and fried food until he finishes the book and you'll have that sixth book finished in no time.

Yeah, but it would consist entirely of obsessively detailed meal descriptions.


Good point.
 
2014-04-28 05:39:33 PM  
mongbiohazard:
Mostly because they've teased so much about it. They show the White Walkers early in the show, and they've given you a glimpse or two here and there... but really they haven't done shiat. They're kind of a non-issue. The show woudn't be changed any if they were left out. So they're kind of a fantasy cock-tease. Dragons ahve been a little more involved... but still not a lot going on there either.

The books are the same way. "Winter is coming..." in book 1. They have glimpses of the Walkers, talk about it, blah blah blah... five books are out and winter is still on the way. Farking hell.
 
2014-04-28 05:45:38 PM  

patrick767: mongbiohazard:
Mostly because they've teased so much about it. They show the White Walkers early in the show, and they've given you a glimpse or two here and there... but really they haven't done shiat. They're kind of a non-issue. The show woudn't be changed any if they were left out. So they're kind of a fantasy cock-tease. Dragons ahve been a little more involved... but still not a lot going on there either.

The books are the same way. "Winter is coming..." in book 1. They have glimpses of the Walkers, talk about it, blah blah blah... five books are out and winter is still on the way. Farking hell.


By the time Stannis marches on Winterfell, pretty safe to say winter is in full swing.

It's just easy to forget with all the Dorne nonsense thrown in there, plus whatever continent Dany is on, as they don't seem to get winter down there.

/fark Dorne
 
2014-04-28 05:48:43 PM  

Tricky Chicken: All you need to do is read the 5th book.  It mentions every single thing that happens in all the previous books and will waste much much less of your time.


So you're willing to accept quick summaries in lieu of well-written and engaging prose, then?  Just as happy to read the cliff notes as the novel?

Good to know I can safely ignore your opinions on literature in the future.
 
2014-04-28 05:52:02 PM  

Klivian: By the time Stannis marches on Winterfell, pretty safe to say winter is in full swing.


There's no farking way in hell am I going to live in a region that can get 60 goddamn feet of snow at a stretch and winter can last for years on end. Not even the hardiest of Icelandians would put up with that shiat.
 
2014-04-28 05:55:43 PM  

Lando Lincoln: Klivian: By the time Stannis marches on Winterfell, pretty safe to say winter is in full swing.

There's no farking way in hell am I going to live in a region that can get 60 goddamn feet of snow at a stretch and winter can last for years on end. Not even the hardiest of Icelandians would put up with that shiat.


Yeah, there's a term for lands that have 10-year-winters, and that term is "uninhabitable". Not sure why any human gives a shiat about keeping the northern lands in Westeros.
 
2014-04-28 05:56:26 PM  

Lando Lincoln: Klivian: By the time Stannis marches on Winterfell, pretty safe to say winter is in full swing.

There's no farking way in hell am I going to live in a region that can get 60 goddamn feet of snow at a stretch and winter can last for years on end. Not even the hardiest of Icelandians would put up with that shiat.


How much does it actually snow in Iceland?
 
2014-04-28 05:58:18 PM  

redmid17: Lando Lincoln: Klivian: By the time Stannis marches on Winterfell, pretty safe to say winter is in full swing.

There's no farking way in hell am I going to live in a region that can get 60 goddamn feet of snow at a stretch and winter can last for years on end. Not even the hardiest of Icelandians would put up with that shiat.

How much does it actually snow in Iceland?


"Not even the hardiest Inuits..."

Better?
 
2014-04-28 06:23:24 PM  

Abner Doon: The other explanation would be that he just doesn't give a fark about finishing, which would fit in with all of the other evidence. It doesn't seem like he's even writing at this point.


http://www.iswintercoming.com/ucp.php?mode=register

We'd love to have you.

Even the most recent teaser chapter...wasn't that written like a decade ago?

Yes, back when he was still planning on a five-year-gap between books three and four.   He ditched the gap but didn't change anything else about the chapter.  So what was originally a 17-year-old girl doing sexual things with a much older adult became a 12-year-old girl doing sexual things with a much older adult.
 
2014-04-28 06:23:35 PM  

Flying Code Monkey: George R. R. Martin, please write and write faster.
You're not going to get any younger, you know.
Winter is coming. I'm growing impatient, and you've still got two whole damn books left to go!
So write, George.  Write like the wind!

(link)


Came for this, satisfied, etc.
 
2014-04-28 06:24:09 PM  

Klivian: /fark Dorne


gaygamer.net

"Oh, we have pretty much farked all of Dorne."
 
2014-04-28 06:35:03 PM  

patrick767: redmid17: Lando Lincoln: Klivian: By the time Stannis marches on Winterfell, pretty safe to say winter is in full swing.

There's no farking way in hell am I going to live in a region that can get 60 goddamn feet of snow at a stretch and winter can last for years on end. Not even the hardiest of Icelandians would put up with that shiat.

How much does it actually snow in Iceland?

"Not even the hardiest Inuits..."

Better?


Yup.  There's no rational reason for people to live within the Arctic Circle or in the Gobi Desert, yet there are people there, all the same.
 
2014-04-28 06:53:56 PM  

Dwight_Yeast: There's no rational reason for people to live within the Arctic Circle or in the Gobi Desert,


Up until about 300 years ago: Well, if the evil people from the other tribe who pushed you into the desert in the first place (whether by food shortage or defeat in battle) would die off, you could move back.

/We shouldn't build modern cities in the desert or Arctic Circle.
//A very small number of people can survive.  As shown by the fact that they're not dead.
 
2014-04-28 06:55:23 PM  
Given how much the last two books generally sucked (minus a few viewpoint characters), I think it's a great thing to be diverging from them.

Obviously you don't want to go too far abroad from the original text, but I'm totally okay if we never hear from Edric Storm, Aegon, or Darkstar. GRRM really loves his sprawl, but it just doesn't work for TV. Consolidate where you can and strengthen characters we already like, like having Bronn replace both Bywater and Illyn Payne in different settings.
 
2014-04-28 06:55:44 PM  
The smaller stories are more interesting than the grand plot, just like CKII, but I do wonder how the general fans of the show will react to the more outthere fantasy elements. Has Mother Stark turned up undead yet?
 
2014-04-28 06:58:28 PM  

Strolpol: Given how much the last two books generally sucked (minus a few viewpoint characters), I think it's a great thing to be diverging from them.

Obviously you don't want to go too far abroad from the original text, but I'm totally okay if we never hear from Edric Storm, Aegon, or Darkstar. GRRM really loves his sprawl, but it just doesn't work for TV. Consolidate where you can and strengthen characters we already like, like having Bronn replace both Bywater and Illyn Payne in different settings.


FWIW I still hope we see Payne come back to help Jaime relearn swordsmanship in future seasons.
 
2014-04-28 07:04:38 PM  

redmid17: Strolpol: Given how much the last two books generally sucked (minus a few viewpoint characters), I think it's a great thing to be diverging from them.

Obviously you don't want to go too far abroad from the original text, but I'm totally okay if we never hear from Edric Storm, Aegon, or Darkstar. GRRM really loves his sprawl, but it just doesn't work for TV. Consolidate where you can and strengthen characters we already like, like having Bronn replace both Bywater and Illyn Payne in different settings.

FWIW I still hope we see Payne come back to help Jaime relearn swordsmanship in future seasons.


The actor's suffering pancreatic cancer, so it's probably not gonna happen.

Just as well, since it'd be kinda boring to watch Jaime spar with a mute guy.
 
2014-04-28 07:32:18 PM  
Would GRRM really go for the "prophecy" ending? What with dragons burning white walkers?
One question I have is how much you can write about dragons burning things before you're sick of it? How many synonyms for "cold" is the next book going to need?

Also, how do you carry on a coherent narrative when so many people are going to die or be cut off from one another during winter?

Personally I hope he kills Daenarys and has her dragons set loose amongst Westeros....

Oh yeah and did anyone else find Cersei's downfall a little underwhelming? I was hoping for that to involve Jaime in a tragic kind of way. Still room to maneuver though.
 
2014-04-28 07:56:21 PM  

spamdog: Also, how do you carry on a coherent narrative when so many people are going to die or be cut off from one another during winter?


Actually most of the story paths point towards very few geographic areas, so there will be convergence rather than separation.
 
2014-04-28 07:59:26 PM  
Gimme Dark Tower, HBO
 
2014-04-28 08:00:52 PM  

meyerkev: Dwight_Yeast: There's no rational reason for people to live within the Arctic Circle or in the Gobi Desert,

Up until about 300 years ago: Well, if the evil people from the other tribe who pushed you into the desert in the first place (whether by food shortage or defeat in battle) would die off, you could move back.

/We shouldn't build modern cities in the desert or Arctic Circle.
//A very small number of people can survive.  As shown by the fact that they're not dead.


We're still pushing people around.  It's just that we now house them in "refugee camps."

From what I understand, the Arctic people of North America have all pretty much moved south and live in year-round housing.  When asked why the answer is some version of "It's farking cold and bleak up here".

On the other hand, the Saudis are having a hell of a time trying to get the  nomadic people of the Empty Quarter to settle down (they're seen as a potential political problem for a number of reasons).  The Saudis are willing to build them good-quality housing but they have no reason to settle and are used to the nomadic lifestyle.
 
2014-04-28 08:12:05 PM  

Ow! That was my feelings!: Jews for Hitler: I missed the last two episodes. Has Dumbledore been killed off yet?

Yep. He was strangled by Gandolf.

Oops! Spoilers!


It wasn't Gandalf, it was Magneto.
 
2014-04-28 08:23:21 PM  

spamdog: One question I have is how much you can write about dragons burning things before you're sick of it? How many synonyms for "cold" is the next book going to need?


You're talking about an author who writes 10 meandering pages detailing what a character has for breakfast and spends multiple books with a POV character aimlessly wandering around in a circle.    He doesn't give a fark.
 
2014-04-28 08:27:36 PM  

yeager: Gimme Dark Tower, HBO


And people biatched about the end to the Sopranos...
 
2014-04-28 08:36:29 PM  

nocturnal001: bhcompy: error 303: How is Malazan Tale of the Fallen? It's been on my radar for awhile but I've never got around to it...

The Malazan series is easily my favorite piece of literature.  Martin's world building and politicking with Glen Cook's characterizations and dialog.  The first book is the worst book, which makes it hard to start, but it's amazing.

Well said. Book 1 had me wondering what I was doing until halfway through. The Chain of Dogs was some of the most compelling stuff I've read. I absolutely hated the Edur vs Letheri war until about 2/3 through then I wound up really enjoying it.


Book 1 was originally written as a screen play, so that is why it is a bit rough around the edges.  Still enjoyed it but it takes first couple hundred to get caught up.
 
2014-04-28 08:40:34 PM  

Sypad: Slow To Return: Sypad: The spoiler is that the name attributed to the white walker in the (since changed) HBO synopsis was used by GRRM in the books to refer to someone who was not (at least at the time) a white walker. So the implication is "that person GRRM mentioned became the King of the Night Walkers."Of course, HBO could have removed the reference just because they realized the implication of what they wrote, not because the implication is true. So, it is just speculation, and relevant only to the book readers.

So when you saw a white walker wearing a crown, you just thought, "Hey, that's weird."

Most viewers (both book readers and not) would probably think, "Oh neat, so there is a chief white walker." The association with the term "the Night King" from the episode summary was identifying the chief walker with a pre-existing character.

I'm taking the maybe-spoiler with a pretty big grain of salt, though, based on my interpretation of the books. It'll be interesting to see how it turns out!

// Doesn't have HBO but reads episode reviews, has read all the books

bhcompy:

I think that's the point.  ASoIaF is a response to the really awful state fantasy was in in the 80s and 90s with Dragonlance, Feist, Goodkind, etc.  Making it more real and less magical is what sold people on the books initially.

A bit off topic, but I thought Feist's last trilogy (where he wrapped up the Riftwar Cycle that he'd been writing for 30 odd years) was one of his strongest. That won't matter if you're a "I never liked his stuff" reader, but if you are a "His early stuff was pretty good" reader, you might enjoy them.


yeeeeeah, It is the same damn trilogy written yet again. He is as bad as David Eddings.
 
2014-04-28 08:41:54 PM  

InmanRoshi: spamdog: One question I have is how much you can write about dragons burning things before you're sick of it? How many synonyms for "cold" is the next book going to need?

You're talking about an author who writes 10 meandering pages detailing what a character has for breakfast and spends multiple books with a POV character aimlessly wandering around in a circle.    He doesn't give a fark.


Hey it's that guy! Good thing you're here to shiat on everything, this discussion was way to civil and entertaining. We needed some dishonest hyperbole and poutrage to round this puppy into shape. You're doing the gods work, GoT troll. The gods work.

/we get it, you don't like fantasy, or Martin, or anything but whatever niche genre hipster shiat you're into, feel free to gtfo and go discuss that with someone else
 
2014-04-28 08:45:05 PM  

Rozotorical: nocturnal001: bhcompy: error 303: How is Malazan Tale of the Fallen? It's been on my radar for awhile but I've never got around to it...

The Malazan series is easily my favorite piece of literature.  Martin's world building and politicking with Glen Cook's characterizations and dialog.  The first book is the worst book, which makes it hard to start, but it's amazing.

Well said. Book 1 had me wondering what I was doing until halfway through. The Chain of Dogs was some of the most compelling stuff I've read. I absolutely hated the Edur vs Letheri war until about 2/3 through then I wound up really enjoying it.

Book 1 was originally written as a screen play, so that is why it is a bit rough around the edges.  Still enjoyed it but it takes first couple hundred to get caught up.


I didn't enjoy the first book. I couldn't connect with anybody in it and found the writing and characters flat. But I read the second book because everybody said, "Oh, the first one isn't so good, but they get better."

Then I read the second one and really liked it.

So I read the third and it was back to solid meh again. But I forced myself on because I'd been told, again, that they got better.

Then I got into the fourth and it was great again for the first third, then trailed away into something so bad I couldn't finish it and I gave up on the series.

Alot of people love these books, but I'm not one of them. I started figuring out I could waste alot of time finishing the series when I could better spend my reading time on other books.
 
2014-04-28 08:45:17 PM  

Semper IvXx: /we get it, you don't like fantasy, or Martin, or anything but whatever niche genre hipster shiat you're into, feel free to gtfo and go discuss that with someone else


can you not, please
 
2014-04-28 08:48:42 PM  

Semper IvXx: InmanRoshi: spamdog: One question I have is how much you can write about dragons burning things before you're sick of it? How many synonyms for "cold" is the next book going to need?

You're talking about an author who writes 10 meandering pages detailing what a character has for breakfast and spends multiple books with a POV character aimlessly wandering around in a circle.    He doesn't give a fark.

Hey it's that guy! Good thing you're here to shiat on everything, this discussion was way to civil and entertaining. We needed some dishonest hyperbole and poutrage to round this puppy into shape. You're doing the gods work, GoT troll. The gods work.

/we get it, you don't like fantasy, or Martin, or anything but whatever niche genre hipster shiat you're into, feel free to gtfo and go discuss that with someone else


Seconded.

I've loved reading every word of every one of the books and can't wait for the next one to come out.

I guess as always, haters gonna hate.

/TV show is fantastic too
 
2014-04-28 09:14:23 PM  

Semper IvXx: Good thing you're here to shiat on everything, this discussion was way to civil and entertaining.


Cymbal: haters gonna hate


Why do we need to do this fascist fanboy thing?
It's possible to be a big fan of something and also be a very vocal critic.
If frank discussion of a creative work offends you so, perhaps you should stop going on discussion forums and stick to consuming the marketing and advertising instead?
 
2014-04-28 09:22:20 PM  

bborchar: Well, I'm actually starting to wonder if we are even going to see Coldhands in the show or not, because they've worked him out of the story so far. If he doesn't show up, then we'll all know that he's not really anyone important, I guess.


And yet they complain that the show is going to end too soon. If they'd stop cutting important shiat and stop trying to turn it into every other cinematic adaptation by incessantly making shiat up to compensate for the shiat they cut, they wouldn't find themselves in a pickle.

//but of course the show is better because someone's actually going to listen to exposition when there are fake lesbians on screen
 
2014-04-28 09:24:55 PM  

Superjew: Tricky Chicken: All you need to do is read the 5th book.  It mentions every single thing that happens in all the previous books and will waste much much less of your time.

So you're willing to accept quick summaries in lieu of well-written and engaging prose, then?  Just as happy to read the cliff notes as the novel?

Good to know I can safely ignore your opinions on literature in the future.


But of course. He knows you can skip book X because he knows how it ends and what happens next.
 
2014-04-28 09:30:19 PM  
The dragons are coming I swear
And I've just ordered two...no three pizzas...South Park was dead on about this guy
 
2014-04-28 09:32:10 PM  

Herr Docktor Heinrich Wisenheimer: You're all going to be pissed off at the end.

Jon Snow marries Daenerys Targaryen. The Others show up and kill everyone.

/It'll be called the White Wedding.


Billy idol is gonna be pissed
 
2014-04-28 09:37:54 PM  

error 303: nocturnal001: Is anyone else noticing that the show is actually starting to diverge from the books in important ways?

I could use a re-read of the book for a refresher but I'm still trying to wrap up the MalazanTale of the Fallen series, and people keep yelling at me to read the Wheel of Time.

How is Malazan Tale of the Fallen? It's been on my radar for awhile but I've never got around to it...

I enjoyed the first and second Wheel of Time books, but by about book 5 they were so utterly frustrating and boring I just couldn't imagine reading the last four or eight or twenty or however many books that series went...

The Tale of the Fallen rocks. Quite a few books in the series and sometimes frusterating to read...Different authors have worked on the series. These are  imho, better than a few of the main books.
 
2014-04-28 09:42:48 PM  

moothemagiccow: bborchar: Well, I'm actually starting to wonder if we are even going to see Coldhands in the show or not, because they've worked him out of the story so far. If he doesn't show up, then we'll all know that he's not really anyone important, I guess.

And yet they complain that the show is going to end too soon. If they'd stop cutting important shiat and stop trying to turn it into every other cinematic adaptation by incessantly making shiat up to compensate for the shiat they cut, they wouldn't find themselves in a pickle.

//but of course the show is better because someone's actually going to listen to exposition when there are fake lesbians on screen


...Who the hell is complaining about that?  Coldhands wasn't that damn important in the book- people have just made him way more important than he actually is by surmising that he's Benjen or the Night's King.  Well, he could never have been Benjen (he's too old) and by all accounts, we've now seen the Night's King, so what's left for Coldhands to do that can't be done by other means and give Bran something interesting to do for once?  It makes sense that the Night's Watch would want to get the mutineers, it makes sense that Bran would be near the keep, and it makes sense that Jon would want to see if he could find Bran there.  Bran already knows where he has to go, so what does adding in one more superfluous character add to a story that is already full of them?

In any case, if you don't like the show, no one is forcing you to watch it.  Unless you like to whine in public forums about shows you don't like.
 
2014-04-28 09:47:02 PM  

bborchar: ...Who the hell is complaining about that?


...you were
 
2014-04-28 09:47:48 PM  
Reddit users laugh at the concept of government surveillance as "lazy".
 
2014-04-28 09:51:08 PM  

moothemagiccow: bborchar: ...Who the hell is complaining about that?

...you were


You must have absolutely terrible reading comprehension.
 
2014-04-28 09:52:24 PM  

JolobinSmokin: So have Tavi gotten control of his fury's yet?

I haven't watched this season.


You magnificent bastard! I liked that series muchly.
 
2014-04-28 10:09:39 PM  

Leosmom1: The dragons are coming I swear
And I've just ordered two...no three pizzas...South Park was dead on about this guy


We've had dragons, And the vast and massive city was pretty awesome two episodes ago.

What people don't understand is that HBO is bigger than GRRM.  They've contracted for a series and they will get an ending, which is why Martin has admitted it may not be the ending to the books.

/they learned that lesson with that hooplehead Milch.
 
2014-04-28 10:59:48 PM  
img2.wikia.nocookie.net

HAI GUYZ...


OH...You meant "Nights King"...Not....Uhmm...Nevermind.
 
2014-04-28 11:13:41 PM  

Superjew: Ow! That was my feelings!: all I can think of is Robert Jordan. Finish it and I'll read it.

The crucial difference here is that the Wheel Of Time books were a huge pile of crap from the get-go, while the Game of Thrones books are each awesome as individual books.

If you don't read them because you're afraid there's a possibility that they won't get ended, then you are depriving yourself of at least 5 fantastic reads.

Also, you may want to not start watching any Star Wars movies.


It's generally accepted that the first 3 books are classics but the last 2 books are crap.
 
2014-04-29 12:10:41 AM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Superjew: Ow! That was my feelings!: all I can think of is Robert Jordan. Finish it and I'll read it.

The crucial difference here is that the Wheel Of Time books were a huge pile of crap from the get-go, while the Game of Thrones books are each awesome as individual books.

If you don't read them because you're afraid there's a possibility that they won't get ended, then you are depriving yourself of at least 5 fantastic reads.

Also, you may want to not start watching any Star Wars movies.

It's generally accepted that the first 3 books are classics but the last 2 books are crap.


I think the four and five are going to seem better once (if) the series is complete. So much happened in book three that the next book had to build the action up again. And four and five are really just one big book. One big book that could have used some trimming, true, but the slower pace was necessary.
 
2014-04-29 12:23:33 AM  
Given the pace of the show vs the pace of Martin's writing, my money is on the show finishing the story first, followed by not-so-subtle hints that the final book plays out differently than the show, making for crazy book sales when it comes out later. Win-win for everybody.
 
2014-04-29 01:20:43 AM  

Ow! That was my feelings!: Indeed. The gf keeps badgering me about reading the series, but all I can think of is Robert Jordan. Finish it and I'll read it.


This is why I hate the douches who act like everyone who hasn't read the books is illiterate.  I haven't read the books.  They started coming out in '96, after I'd already read Tolkien, The Belgariad, Tad Williams, and a bunch of other doorstoppers.  I didn't want to read Game of Thrones until the series was done.  Now its almost twenty years later and I feel like I made the right decision, especially in light of Jordan's death.   Now that the books are a TV series, I'd rather just watch the show and not spoil myself with the books, especially since they're still not finished.
 
2014-04-29 01:45:43 AM  

Superjew: well-written and engaging prose


blog.angelatung.com
 
2014-04-29 02:22:16 AM  
quizzical: but the slower pace was necessary.

There's no such thing. If the readers need a "breather", it's because they're idiots.  You ever done the thing where you stopped reading for 5 seconds to digest?

No?

May I suggest you go back to Dr. Seuss?

Crappy writing is crappy. No one needs hundreds of pages of nothing happening. We have a word for that, and the word is "boring". No, I don't give a shiat about her dress. Or her braids. If I did, I'd be reading a primer on medieval fashion.

I'm here for betrayal, sex, intestines, more sex, dragonfire, politics (did I mention betrayal?), chickens, revenge, hot redheaded wildlings,

/Currently reading "The Arms of Krupp"
//fark you, my book collection is more obscure than yours
///Read one Eddings trilogy, and realised I'd read them all
 
2014-04-29 02:35:41 AM  

GloomCookie613: JolobinSmokin: So have Tavi gotten control of his fury's yet?

I haven't watched this season.

You magnificent bastard! I liked that series muchly.


The problem with that series was that th e"power curve" got way out of whack, way fast. By the end of it, the power levels of the principles were just absurd. I truly fear that's where his other, much more popular series is headed, but at least the ramp up has been much more gradual.
 
2014-04-29 04:37:25 AM  

GrendelMk1: There's no such thing. If the readers need a "breather", it's because they're idiots.


It's called the scene/sequel format, and pretty much every writer uses whether they realize it or not (Dean Koontz deliberately tried to avoid it with his thriller  Intensity, the only successful aversion I can think of). You need the occasional slower scene to contrast with the faster paced stuff - if you just have exciting scenes and no slower scenes the pacing feels off and after a while the exciting scenes stop being exciting and start being obnoxious.

It's something taught in every Creative Writing 101 course in the country. Saying there's "no such thing" makes me suspect you don't know a lot about writing.
 
2014-04-29 05:25:06 AM  

Dwight_Yeast: Yup.  There's no rational reason for people to live within the Arctic Circle or in the Gobi Desert, yet there are people there, all the same.


It is annoying when people are driven off the fringes of habitable land and persist on living.  Jesus, why don't they make A-bombs from snow or mustard gas from cacti so they get better real estate?
 
2014-04-29 05:35:41 AM  

Dead for Tax Reasons: the way he's going, he's going to die before he finishes anyway


I've heard similar sentiments expressed in these threads here. I know absolutely nothing about the guy, is he terminally ill or on some epic years long bender or something?
 
2014-04-29 05:36:26 AM  

Medic Zero: I know absolutely nothing about the guy, is he terminally ill or on some epic years long bender or something?


He's 65 and very fat. You don't see a lot of old, fat people for a reason.
 
KIA
2014-04-29 06:03:17 AM  
Book 6 will be released with the beginning of Season 5 - for sales and marketing.  That means April, 2015

Season 6 will be released April, 2016

The first half of Book 7 (which needs to be split - for marketing!) will be released with Season 7 in April 2017.

The second half of Book 7 will be released with the feature-length movie finale in Summer, 2018 - for marketing!
 
2014-04-29 06:57:43 AM  

Gunther: Lando Lincoln: That seem pretty plausible to you?

Kinda, yeah.

Mance has only just taken control of all the wildlings, it's likely before he took charge none of them bothered to take prisoners (wildlings don't seem to have much of a grasp of tactics). Add to that there hasn't been many rangings north of the wall recently and it's possible. Unlikely, but possible.


+1

Hell, Wildings may have captured a ranger fairly recently, and the information never made it to Mance, because, as you say, he's only just recently taken control of the wildlings.
 
2014-04-29 07:52:50 AM  

moothemagiccow: Superjew: Tricky Chicken: All you need to do is read the 5th book.  It mentions every single thing that happens in all the previous books and will waste much much less of your time.

So you're willing to accept quick summaries in lieu of well-written and engaging prose, then?  Just as happy to read the cliff notes as the novel?

Good to know I can safely ignore your opinions on literature in the future.

But of course. He knows you can skip book X because he knows how it ends and what happens next.


No, for different reasons, I read them in the order 1, 2, 5, 3, 4.  I found that going back and reading books 3 and 4 added very little of value aside for a more complete version of the red wedding, and some of the happenings at the wall.  If I were to be thorough, I would recommend reading book 1, then I would cherry pick about half of the chapters in the following books.  Easily 60-70% of these books should have ended up on the cutting room floor. How many pages of roots growing around Bran do you need?
 
2014-04-29 08:05:43 AM  

Rectum damn near killed em: Tricky Chicken: Superjew: Tricky Chicken: All you need to do is read the 5th book.  It mentions every single thing that happens in all the previous books and will waste much much less of your time.

Guess how I can tell you don't really like the act of reading all that much.

I love reading. I just don't love reading the same conversation over and over, or constant flashbacks so detailed, that you can skip whold books and not miss anything.

If you were to watch the DVDs like the books, you would have to watch them in this order
Disc 1
Disc 2
Half of Disc 1
Disc 3
Disc2
Disc 7

Yes, because TV and film never employ flashbacks and are linear only...


I like flashbacks when used to fill in things you don't know about a character's past.  But martin employs near copy and paste insertions of events in other books.  These aren't flashbacks as much as they are re-runs.
 
2014-04-29 08:07:43 AM  

Semper IvXx: Hey it's that guy! Good thing you're here to shiat on everything, this discussion was way to civil and entertaining. We needed some dishonest hyperbole and poutrage to round this puppy into shape. You're doing the gods work, GoT troll. The gods work.

/we get it, you don't like fantasy, or Martin, or anything but whatever niche genre hipster shiat you're into, feel free to gtfo and go discuss that with someone else


wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net


So you're saying that books 4 and 5 were AH-MAH-ZING?
 
2014-04-29 08:17:01 AM  

Tricky Chicken: moothemagiccow: Superjew: Tricky Chicken: All you need to do is read the 5th book.  It mentions every single thing that happens in all the previous books and will waste much much less of your time.

So you're willing to accept quick summaries in lieu of well-written and engaging prose, then?  Just as happy to read the cliff notes as the novel?

Good to know I can safely ignore your opinions on literature in the future.

But of course. He knows you can skip book X because he knows how it ends and what happens next.

No, for different reasons, I read them in the order 1, 2, 5, 3, 4.  I found that going back and reading books 3 and 4 added very little of value aside for a more complete version of the red wedding, and some of the happenings at the wall.  If I were to be thorough, I would recommend reading book 1, then I would cherry pick about half of the chapters in the following books.  Easily 60-70% of these books should have ended up on the cutting room floor. How many pages of roots growing around Bran do you need?


Where, in Book 5 , does it mention any of the stuff that happened above and on the Wall? Or what really happened in the Purple Wedding?

If you purposely skip over the 3rd book thinking that you haven't 'missed much', you might as well not bother reading it at all, since it is easily the best paced and most exciting book in the series.
 
2014-04-29 08:43:23 AM  

bborchar: Tricky Chicken: moothemagiccow: Superjew: Tricky Chicken: All you need to do is read the 5th book.  It mentions every single thing that happens in all the previous books and will waste much much less of your time.

So you're willing to accept quick summaries in lieu of well-written and engaging prose, then?  Just as happy to read the cliff notes as the novel?

Good to know I can safely ignore your opinions on literature in the future.

But of course. He knows you can skip book X because he knows how it ends and what happens next.

No, for different reasons, I read them in the order 1, 2, 5, 3, 4.  I found that going back and reading books 3 and 4 added very little of value aside for a more complete version of the red wedding, and some of the happenings at the wall.  If I were to be thorough, I would recommend reading book 1, then I would cherry pick about half of the chapters in the following books.  Easily 60-70% of these books should have ended up on the cutting room floor. How many pages of roots growing around Bran do you need?

Where, in Book 5 , does it mention any of the stuff that happened above and on the Wall? Or what really happened in the Purple Wedding?

If you purposely skip over the 3rd book thinking that you haven't 'missed much', you might as well not bother reading it at all, since it is easily the best paced and most exciting book in the series.


I did not skip over the 3rd book figuring I wouldn't miss much.  I was looking for something else that is missing from the series that never shows up. I went back to books 3 and 4 to see if it was somehow in those, but it wasn't there either.  I admit, the things going on at the wall and the red wedding are valuable parts of books 3 and 4.  But the other half of those two books should be thrown out and merged into one book.

Actually, this whole soap opera should be edited down to two books plus a little bit.  Most of it goes nowhere and adds no value.
 
2014-04-29 08:46:44 AM  

Lando Lincoln: ShadowKamui: Lando Lincoln: ShadowKamui: Over 300 rangers went out and got slaughtered at Fist of the First Men and/or at the mutiny at Craster's Keep

And not one of them were captured for information.

Yeah, that seems reasonable.

The white walkers don't take prisoners alive and outside of Jon, Sam and those 2 that showed up last week; anyone still alive from that group of 300+ is hanging out at Craster's

Hence why Jon going to kill them

Sometimes I don't know why I bother.

Okay, so...let's assume for no real reason that no Night's Watch rangers have been taken prisoner by any of Mance's raiders in the past five years or so. Mance's raiders just suck that badly at this whole "gathering information" thing.

So...yeah...300 Crows come up north and this is a prime opportunity for Mance to grab two or three and get information out of them. But, again, Mance's raiders suck at this thing so in their lust for literally "eating Crow," they kill all of them except for a few that make it back to Craster's. And Jon Snow. Who they capture and one other guy, and Jon Snow kills the one other guy. The one other guy that they could corroborate information out of to verify that neither one was lying.

That seem pretty plausible to you?


Are you watching the same show?  The white walkers killed the 300 crows, minus the ones that made it back to Crasters.  Try to keep up here.
 
2014-04-29 09:08:30 AM  

Strolpol: Given how much the last two books generally sucked (minus a few viewpoint characters), I think it's a great thing to be diverging from them.

Obviously you don't want to go too far abroad from the original text, but I'm totally okay if we never hear from Edric Storm, Aegon, or Darkstar. GRRM really loves his sprawl, but it just doesn't work for TV. Consolidate where you can and strengthen characters we already like, like having Bronn replace both Bywater and Illyn Payne in different settings.


Glad you're not running the show, cause I liked all the stuff you talk about and cannot wait to see it on the show.  Probably cause I don't have ADD.
 
2014-04-29 09:11:00 AM  

amoral: Superjew:
If you don't read them because you're afraid there's a possibility that they won't get ended, then you are depriving yourself of at least 5 fantastic reads.

Two fantastic reads. Two good reads. One mediocre read.


Nope, he had it right.
 
2014-04-29 09:20:15 AM  

Tricky Chicken: bborchar: Tricky Chicken: moothemagiccow: Superjew: Tricky Chicken: All you need to do is read the 5th book.  It mentions every single thing that happens in all the previous books and will waste much much less of your time.

So you're willing to accept quick summaries in lieu of well-written and engaging prose, then?  Just as happy to read the cliff notes as the novel?

Good to know I can safely ignore your opinions on literature in the future.

But of course. He knows you can skip book X because he knows how it ends and what happens next.

No, for different reasons, I read them in the order 1, 2, 5, 3, 4.  I found that going back and reading books 3 and 4 added very little of value aside for a more complete version of the red wedding, and some of the happenings at the wall.  If I were to be thorough, I would recommend reading book 1, then I would cherry pick about half of the chapters in the following books.  Easily 60-70% of these books should have ended up on the cutting room floor. How many pages of roots growing around Bran do you need?

Where, in Book 5 , does it mention any of the stuff that happened above and on the Wall? Or what really happened in the Purple Wedding?

If you purposely skip over the 3rd book thinking that you haven't 'missed much', you might as well not bother reading it at all, since it is easily the best paced and most exciting book in the series.

I did not skip over the 3rd book figuring I wouldn't miss much.  I was looking for something else that is missing from the series that never shows up. I went back to books 3 and 4 to see if it was somehow in those, but it wasn't there either.  I admit, the things going on at the wall and the red wedding are valuable parts of books 3 and 4.  But the other half of those two books should be thrown out and merged into one book.

Actually, this whole soap opera should be edited down to two books plus a little bit.  Most of it goes nowhere and adds no value.



I wouldn't actually throw out all the material written, but a lot of what's in books 4 and 5 belong in an appendix or a Silmarillion type book.  GRRM was an admirer of JRRT and seems to want to follow in his footsteps, especially, it would seem, the part where he writes all the back history and intricate details of various minor plots first before finishing the current story.  The difference is that Tolkein was wise enough not to include all that stuff in the main narrative.
 
2014-04-29 09:29:10 AM  

Persnickety: I wouldn't actually throw out all the material written, but a lot of what's in books 4 and 5 belong in an appendix or a Silmarillion type book. GRRM was an admirer of JRRT and seems to want to follow in his footsteps, especially, it would seem, the part where he writes all the back history and intricate details of various minor plots first before finishing the current story. The difference is that Tolkein was wise enough not to include all that stuff in the main narrative.


Tolkein's main story was about the one ring.  The fate of that ring had serious ramifications for the entire world.  Early in the first book, you knew what needed to happen to it, and what the ramifications of failure were.

Please tell me, what is the main story of Martin's work? What ramifications are there for success or failure? How will anything in this world change one way or another?
 
2014-04-29 09:53:31 AM  

Tricky Chicken: Persnickety: I wouldn't actually throw out all the material written, but a lot of what's in books 4 and 5 belong in an appendix or a Silmarillion type book. GRRM was an admirer of JRRT and seems to want to follow in his footsteps, especially, it would seem, the part where he writes all the back history and intricate details of various minor plots first before finishing the current story. The difference is that Tolkein was wise enough not to include all that stuff in the main narrative.

Tolkein's main story was about the one ring.  The fate of that ring had serious ramifications for the entire world.  Early in the first book, you knew what needed to happen to it, and what the ramifications of failure were.

Please tell me, what is the main story of Martin's work? What ramifications are there for success or failure? How will anything in this world change one way or another?


Main Story:

White Walkers are coming back, and the fight over the Iron Throne has made it much easier for the bad guys to come and take over everything.  3 heroes are prophecies to rise and defeat them.

It's not really that hard to figure out or even summarize.
 
2014-04-29 10:18:02 AM  

bborchar: Tricky Chicken: Persnickety: I wouldn't actually throw out all the material written, but a lot of what's in books 4 and 5 belong in an appendix or a Silmarillion type book. GRRM was an admirer of JRRT and seems to want to follow in his footsteps, especially, it would seem, the part where he writes all the back history and intricate details of various minor plots first before finishing the current story. The difference is that Tolkein was wise enough not to include all that stuff in the main narrative.

Tolkein's main story was about the one ring.  The fate of that ring had serious ramifications for the entire world.  Early in the first book, you knew what needed to happen to it, and what the ramifications of failure were.

Please tell me, what is the main story of Martin's work? What ramifications are there for success or failure? How will anything in this world change one way or another?

Main Story:

White Walkers are coming back, and the fight over the Iron Throne has made it much easier for the bad guys to come and take over everything.  3 heroes are prophecies to rise and defeat them.

It's not really that hard to figure out or even summarize.


Yeah, I get that storyline somewhat, but it is underplayed. And there is very little if anything paid to that storyline in the early books.  Mostly, the story is presented as 'there are monsters on the other side of the wall'.  They are sort of an enigmatic threat like the existence of orcs in Tolkein.  It is more of a condition of the world in general than a driving issue.  The prophecies get much less attention than the descriptions of meals and killing.  And I am sure I missed what the heroes are supposed to actually do. What do they need to do to defeat the walkers (not a snark, I just missed it)?
 
2014-04-29 10:24:11 AM  

Tricky Chicken: bborchar: Tricky Chicken: Persnickety: I wouldn't actually throw out all the material written, but a lot of what's in books 4 and 5 belong in an appendix or a Silmarillion type book. GRRM was an admirer of JRRT and seems to want to follow in his footsteps, especially, it would seem, the part where he writes all the back history and intricate details of various minor plots first before finishing the current story. The difference is that Tolkein was wise enough not to include all that stuff in the main narrative.

Tolkein's main story was about the one ring.  The fate of that ring had serious ramifications for the entire world.  Early in the first book, you knew what needed to happen to it, and what the ramifications of failure were.

Please tell me, what is the main story of Martin's work? What ramifications are there for success or failure? How will anything in this world change one way or another?

Main Story:

White Walkers are coming back, and the fight over the Iron Throne has made it much easier for the bad guys to come and take over everything.  3 heroes are prophecies to rise and defeat them.

It's not really that hard to figure out or even summarize.

Yeah, I get that storyline somewhat, but it is underplayed. And there is very little if anything paid to that storyline in the early books.  Mostly, the story is presented as 'there are monsters on the other side of the wall'.  They are sort of an enigmatic threat like the existence of orcs in Tolkein.  It is more of a condition of the world in general than a driving issue.  The prophecies get much less attention than the descriptions of meals and killing.  And I am sure I missed what the heroes are supposed to actually do. What do they need to do to defeat the walkers (not a snark, I just missed it)?


Sam discovered that they can be killed pretty easily if you use an obsidian weapon. (I'm guessing that the black stone spear tip he used to kill that WW was obsidian). Whatever else they do, they'll probably want to use obsidian weapons.
 
2014-04-29 10:24:23 AM  

Tricky Chicken: What do they need to do to defeat the walkers (not a snark, I just missed it)?


Stop playing the damn Game and unite against a common foe.

The main story is Westeros. That's it. The continent is the main character. The other people, walkers, dragons, etc. are just a means to tell this particular slice of Westerosi history.

There are ramifications if the continent cannot survive for one reason or another. It could be another Long Winter. On the other hand, should Westeros survive, it could be a short winter with another long summer. The titles of the next two books give us a little bit of clue. Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring. Winter is coming and spring is but a dream.

I rambled a bit there, but that's my opinion.
 
2014-04-29 11:11:17 AM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: Tricky Chicken: What do they need to do to defeat the walkers (not a snark, I just missed it)?

Stop playing the damn Game and unite against a common foe.


That.

If they'd united and send all their troops north when Ned Stark tried to get them to, instead of fighting amongst themselves they'd have the Wall armed, the forts repaired and more than enough troops to fight off the Wildlings and the Walkers.

Instead we get the story we've all been watching, which is far more interesting.
 
2014-04-29 12:33:25 PM  

Dwight_Yeast: The_Six_Fingered_Man: Tricky Chicken: What do they need to do to defeat the walkers (not a snark, I just missed it)?

Stop playing the damn Game and unite against a common foe.

That.

If they'd united and send all their troops north when Ned Stark tried to get them to, instead of fighting amongst themselves they'd have the Wall armed, the forts repaired and more than enough troops to fight off the Wildlings and the Walkers.

Instead we get the story we've all been watching, which is far more interesting.


This.  It would have been a short book if everyone's focus had been on their common enemy instead of gaining power.  Just like it would have been a short book if Gandalf had asked more questions about Bilbo's ring before Sauron came back in force.  Sometimes the side stories are the most interesting stories of all.
 
2014-04-29 12:37:29 PM  

Communist_Manifesto: bhcompy: nocturnal001: No, I'm not done. Book 7 right now.

Also, book 7 is my favorite to reread.  Without spoiling anything(all separate items): Beak, the Drum, and Hood-damned demon farmers.  So much win

/also Shurq Elalle

I'm currently on Toll the Hounds and book 7 was AWESOME.

If Beaks story line doesn't make you cry like a biatch, you're so dead inside I don't know why you keep on living.


//SPOILER\\

I was fine until I got to the chapter with Hood's point of view of Beak. Then I cried like a little biatch.

\\ END SPOILER//
 
2014-04-29 01:30:15 PM  

Gunther: GrendelMk1: There's no such thing. If the readers need a "breather", it's because they're idiots.

It's called the scene/sequel format, and pretty much every writer uses whether they realize it or not (Dean Koontz deliberately tried to avoid it with his thriller  Intensity, the only successful aversion I can think of). You need the occasional slower scene to contrast with the faster paced stuff - if you just have exciting scenes and no slower scenes the pacing feels off and after a while the exciting scenes stop being exciting and start being obnoxious.

It's something taught in every Creative Writing 101 course in the country. Saying there's "no such thing" makes me suspect you don't know a lot about writing.


However, no story needs close to 2,000 pages of slow build-up. I don't care how many plot lines there are. Robert Jordan ended up being far worse than Martin about that and even when book 10 came out and almost nothing happened in it, just like books 7-9, he still had fanboys claiming that the slow pace was "necessary" to set things up.
 
2014-04-29 01:34:22 PM  

patrick767: Gunther: GrendelMk1: There's no such thing. If the readers need a "breather", it's because they're idiots.

It's called the scene/sequel format, and pretty much every writer uses whether they realize it or not (Dean Koontz deliberately tried to avoid it with his thriller  Intensity, the only successful aversion I can think of). You need the occasional slower scene to contrast with the faster paced stuff - if you just have exciting scenes and no slower scenes the pacing feels off and after a while the exciting scenes stop being exciting and start being obnoxious.

It's something taught in every Creative Writing 101 course in the country. Saying there's "no such thing" makes me suspect you don't know a lot about writing.

However, no story needs close to 2,000 pages of slow build-up. I don't care how many plot lines there are. Robert Jordan ended up being far worse than Martin about that and even when book 10 came out and almost nothing happened in it, just like books 7-9, he still had fanboys claiming that the slow pace was "necessary" to set things up.


I can give you EVERYTHING that you need to know about Book 10 in 3 lines in reasonably spoiler-free fashion.

Her: "Have you seen Hawkwing's face, Toy".
Him: "No" *Is totally lying*
Her: *Knows he's totally lying.  This will pay off at the end of Book 11*

That's IT.  NOTHING HAPPENS.  A 900 page book in 3 lines.  NOTHING HAPPENS.
 
2014-04-29 02:08:32 PM  

meyerkev: patrick767: Gunther: GrendelMk1: There's no such thing. If the readers need a "breather", it's because they're idiots.

It's called the scene/sequel format, and pretty much every writer uses whether they realize it or not (Dean Koontz deliberately tried to avoid it with his thriller  Intensity, the only successful aversion I can think of). You need the occasional slower scene to contrast with the faster paced stuff - if you just have exciting scenes and no slower scenes the pacing feels off and after a while the exciting scenes stop being exciting and start being obnoxious.

It's something taught in every Creative Writing 101 course in the country. Saying there's "no such thing" makes me suspect you don't know a lot about writing.

However, no story needs close to 2,000 pages of slow build-up. I don't care how many plot lines there are. Robert Jordan ended up being far worse than Martin about that and even when book 10 came out and almost nothing happened in it, just like books 7-9, he still had fanboys claiming that the slow pace was "necessary" to set things up.

I can give you EVERYTHING that you need to know about Book 10 in 3 lines in reasonably spoiler-free fashion.

Her: "Have you seen Hawkwing's face, Toy".
Him: "No" *Is totally lying*
Her: *Knows he's totally lying.  This will pay off at the end of Book 11*

That's IT.  NOTHING HAPPENS.  A 900 page book in 3 lines.  NOTHING HAPPENS.


****WHEEL OF TIME BOOK 10 SPOILERS IN SPECTACULAR FASHION****

Keep in mind, I am not telling you to like the book AND I think books 9 and 10 could be condensed iunto 1 book (ala Matrin and books 4 and 5 of his series) I *AM* pointing out that it's character development that happens. The big event at Shador Logoth being the finale of book 9.

Mat and Tuon are courting. You are reading a mating dance. happened in books 3 and 4 with Perrin and Faile (and various books with Rand and his harem). Perrin scouting out the Shaido and in the course of this and book 11 becoming the leader he needs to be for his people.

It's the least eventful no doubt. It's all about whether you enjoy the world at that point and want to see character development without key plot points being 100% resolved.
 
2014-04-29 02:15:09 PM  

Jim from Saint Paul: It's the least eventful no doubt. It's all about whether you enjoy the world at that point and want to see character development without key plot points being 100% resolved.


The problem is that the prior 6 books were nearly as slow at the same time.
 
2014-04-29 02:16:23 PM  
The entire Wheel of Time series should be considered a rough draft. It should be edited down and released as a 5 book series. The original releases should be forgotten.
 
2014-04-29 02:20:07 PM  

meyerkev: patrick767: Gunther: GrendelMk1: There's no such thing. If the readers need a "breather", it's because they're idiots.

It's called the scene/sequel format, and pretty much every writer uses whether they realize it or not (Dean Koontz deliberately tried to avoid it with his thriller  Intensity, the only successful aversion I can think of). You need the occasional slower scene to contrast with the faster paced stuff - if you just have exciting scenes and no slower scenes the pacing feels off and after a while the exciting scenes stop being exciting and start being obnoxious.

It's something taught in every Creative Writing 101 course in the country. Saying there's "no such thing" makes me suspect you don't know a lot about writing.

However, no story needs close to 2,000 pages of slow build-up. I don't care how many plot lines there are. Robert Jordan ended up being far worse than Martin about that and even when book 10 came out and almost nothing happened in it, just like books 7-9, he still had fanboys claiming that the slow pace was "necessary" to set things up.

I can give you EVERYTHING that you need to know about Book 10 in 3 lines in reasonably spoiler-free fashion.

Her: "Have you seen Hawkwing's face, Toy".
Him: "No" *Is totally lying*
Her: *Knows he's totally lying.  This will pay off at the end of Book 11*

That's IT.  NOTHING HAPPENS.  A 900 page book in 3 lines.  NOTHING HAPPENS.


Are you talking about Crossroads of Twilight, oh yeah that is where I gave up.
 
2014-04-29 02:21:17 PM  

bhcompy: Jim from Saint Paul: It's the least eventful no doubt. It's all about whether you enjoy the world at that point and want to see character development without key plot points being 100% resolved.

The problem is that the prior 6 books were nearly as slow at the same time.


Disagreed. Books 4,5 and 6 for sure had key set pieces that moved the plot and characters along fine. 7/9 and 9/10 with proper editng could ave been one book a piece. Path of Daggers and Winters Heart were both very good books that had key plotlines moved along as well. It's books 7 and 10 that dragged. Heck, even Jordan said he was trying to basically do what Martin did because he had to (split the books around and goof with the timeline) on purpose because he thought it would work. He admitted it didn;t work nearly as well as he liked.(not finding citation on that though...)
 
2014-04-29 02:28:41 PM  

shortymac: meyerkev: patrick767: Gunther: GrendelMk1: There's no such thing. If the readers need a "breather", it's because they're idiots.

It's called the scene/sequel format, and pretty much every writer uses whether they realize it or not (Dean Koontz deliberately tried to avoid it with his thriller  Intensity, the only successful aversion I can think of). You need the occasional slower scene to contrast with the faster paced stuff - if you just have exciting scenes and no slower scenes the pacing feels off and after a while the exciting scenes stop being exciting and start being obnoxious.

It's something taught in every Creative Writing 101 course in the country. Saying there's "no such thing" makes me suspect you don't know a lot about writing.

However, no story needs close to 2,000 pages of slow build-up. I don't care how many plot lines there are. Robert Jordan ended up being far worse than Martin about that and even when book 10 came out and almost nothing happened in it, just like books 7-9, he still had fanboys claiming that the slow pace was "necessary" to set things up.

I can give you EVERYTHING that you need to know about Book 10 in 3 lines in reasonably spoiler-free fashion.

Her: "Have you seen Hawkwing's face, Toy".
Him: "No" *Is totally lying*
Her: *Knows he's totally lying.  This will pay off at the end of Book 11*

That's IT.  NOTHING HAPPENS.  A 900 page book in 3 lines.  NOTHING HAPPENS.

Are you talking about Crossroads of Twilight, oh yeah that is where I gave up.


Go back in. 11 is where the plot started moving again.

And then Sanderson took over and it got good.

Though skip Perrin until 13 and Egwene until 12.
 
2014-04-29 02:42:47 PM  

Gunther: It's called the scene/sequel format, and pretty much every writer uses whether they realize it or not


That sounds more like the sort of nonsense they teach in film writing (like the three-act structure).  Yes, Some potboiler authors alternate fast and slow, but really good novelists can amp up the intensity... or just let the book carry you along, like floating in a stream (Ray Bardbury was amazing at that in his later novels).
 
2014-04-29 03:01:30 PM  

meyerkev: shortymac: meyerkev: patrick767: Gunther: GrendelMk1: There's no such thing. If the readers need a "breather", it's because they're idiots.

It's called the scene/sequel format, and pretty much every writer uses whether they realize it or not (Dean Koontz deliberately tried to avoid it with his thriller  Intensity, the only successful aversion I can think of). You need the occasional slower scene to contrast with the faster paced stuff - if you just have exciting scenes and no slower scenes the pacing feels off and after a while the exciting scenes stop being exciting and start being obnoxious.

It's something taught in every Creative Writing 101 course in the country. Saying there's "no such thing" makes me suspect you don't know a lot about writing.

However, no story needs close to 2,000 pages of slow build-up. I don't care how many plot lines there are. Robert Jordan ended up being far worse than Martin about that and even when book 10 came out and almost nothing happened in it, just like books 7-9, he still had fanboys claiming that the slow pace was "necessary" to set things up.

I can give you EVERYTHING that you need to know about Book 10 in 3 lines in reasonably spoiler-free fashion.

Her: "Have you seen Hawkwing's face, Toy".
Him: "No" *Is totally lying*
Her: *Knows he's totally lying.  This will pay off at the end of Book 11*

That's IT.  NOTHING HAPPENS.  A 900 page book in 3 lines.  NOTHING HAPPENS.

Are you talking about Crossroads of Twilight, oh yeah that is where I gave up.

Go back in. 11 is where the plot started moving again.

And then Sanderson took over and it got good.

Though skip Perrin until 13 and Egwene until 12.


Skip Perrin till 13? So don;t read half of 11 and the Shaido camp bit? Really?
 
2014-04-29 03:45:08 PM  

meyerkev: shortymac: meyerkev: patrick767: Gunther: GrendelMk1: There's no such thing. If the readers need a "breather", it's because they're idiots.

It's called the scene/sequel format, and pretty much every writer uses whether they realize it or not (Dean Koontz deliberately tried to avoid it with his thriller  Intensity, the only successful aversion I can think of). You need the occasional slower scene to contrast with the faster paced stuff - if you just have exciting scenes and no slower scenes the pacing feels off and after a while the exciting scenes stop being exciting and start being obnoxious.

It's something taught in every Creative Writing 101 course in the country. Saying there's "no such thing" makes me suspect you don't know a lot about writing.

However, no story needs close to 2,000 pages of slow build-up. I don't care how many plot lines there are. Robert Jordan ended up being far worse than Martin about that and even when book 10 came out and almost nothing happened in it, just like books 7-9, he still had fanboys claiming that the slow pace was "necessary" to set things up.

I can give you EVERYTHING that you need to know about Book 10 in 3 lines in reasonably spoiler-free fashion.

Her: "Have you seen Hawkwing's face, Toy".
Him: "No" *Is totally lying*
Her: *Knows he's totally lying.  This will pay off at the end of Book 11*

That's IT.  NOTHING HAPPENS.  A 900 page book in 3 lines.  NOTHING HAPPENS.

Are you talking about Crossroads of Twilight, oh yeah that is where I gave up.

Go back in. 11 is where the plot started moving again.

And then Sanderson took over and it got good.

Though skip Perrin until 13 and Egwene until 12.


Quite frankly I'm scared to read it again, I love Jordan's world but book 10 just dragged on so much I gave up.

Also, as a chick Jordan's portrayal of women started to tick me off a bit, it seems like they never matured. Especially Egwene's storyline, why the hell did she do what she did at the end of 10?

If you are a leader you just don't do that shiat.
 
2014-04-29 03:50:25 PM  

Strik3r: Sam discovered that they can be killed pretty easily if you use an obsidian weapon. (I'm guessing that the black stone spear tip he used to kill that WW was obsidian). Whatever else they do, they'll probably want to use obsidian weapons.


Oh?  How is obsidian made?
 
2014-04-29 04:07:19 PM  

Slow To Return: Strik3r: Sam discovered that they can be killed pretty easily if you use an obsidian weapon. (I'm guessing that the black stone spear tip he used to kill that WW was obsidian). Whatever else they do, they'll probably want to use obsidian weapons.

Oh?  How is obsidian made?


Obsidian is a naturally occurring Volcanic glass formed as an extrusive igneous rock.
 
2014-04-29 04:29:48 PM  

shortymac: meyerkev: shortymac: meyerkev: patrick767: Gunther: GrendelMk1: There's no such thing. If the readers need a "breather", it's because they're idiots.

It's called the scene/sequel format, and pretty much every writer uses whether they realize it or not (Dean Koontz deliberately tried to avoid it with his thriller  Intensity, the only successful aversion I can think of). You need the occasional slower scene to contrast with the faster paced stuff - if you just have exciting scenes and no slower scenes the pacing feels off and after a while the exciting scenes stop being exciting and start being obnoxious.

It's something taught in every Creative Writing 101 course in the country. Saying there's "no such thing" makes me suspect you don't know a lot about writing.

However, no story needs close to 2,000 pages of slow build-up. I don't care how many plot lines there are. Robert Jordan ended up being far worse than Martin about that and even when book 10 came out and almost nothing happened in it, just like books 7-9, he still had fanboys claiming that the slow pace was "necessary" to set things up.

I can give you EVERYTHING that you need to know about Book 10 in 3 lines in reasonably spoiler-free fashion.

Her: "Have you seen Hawkwing's face, Toy".
Him: "No" *Is totally lying*
Her: *Knows he's totally lying.  This will pay off at the end of Book 11*

That's IT.  NOTHING HAPPENS.  A 900 page book in 3 lines.  NOTHING HAPPENS.

Are you talking about Crossroads of Twilight, oh yeah that is where I gave up.

Go back in. 11 is where the plot started moving again.

And then Sanderson took over and it got good.

Though skip Perrin until 13 and Egwene until 12.

Quite frankly I'm scared to read it again, I love Jordan's world but book 10 just dragged on so much I gave up.

Also, as a chick Jordan's portrayal of women started to tick me off a bit, it seems like they never matured. Especially Egwene's storyline, why the hell did she do what she did at the end of 10?

If you are ...


Women of power in that world are just like the majority of men in other series. They are oafish, barely ever mature within the series and are still totally in charge.

Ancd Egwene did it because she's an egotistical 19 year old who is considered the leader of the free world to tens of thousands of people. She screwed up.
 
2014-04-29 04:38:04 PM  

Strik3r: Slow To Return: Strik3r: Sam discovered that they can be killed pretty easily if you use an obsidian weapon. (I'm guessing that the black stone spear tip he used to kill that WW was obsidian). Whatever else they do, they'll probably want to use obsidian weapons.

Oh?  How is obsidian made?

Obsidian is a naturally occurring Volcanic glass formed as an extrusive igneous rock.


Why do I recall reading that the only fire hot enough to create obsidian is the breath of dragons?
 
2014-04-29 04:41:03 PM  

Slow To Return: Strik3r: Slow To Return: Strik3r: Sam discovered that they can be killed pretty easily if you use an obsidian weapon. (I'm guessing that the black stone spear tip he used to kill that WW was obsidian). Whatever else they do, they'll probably want to use obsidian weapons.

Oh?  How is obsidian made?

Obsidian is a naturally occurring Volcanic glass formed as an extrusive igneous rock.

Why do I recall reading that the only fire hot enough to create obsidian is the breath of dragons?


Oh.......  How is obsidian made in the book?
 
2014-04-29 04:43:08 PM  

Slow To Return: Strik3r: Slow To Return: Strik3r: Sam discovered that they can be killed pretty easily if you use an obsidian weapon. (I'm guessing that the black stone spear tip he used to kill that WW was obsidian). Whatever else they do, they'll probably want to use obsidian weapons.

Oh?  How is obsidian made?

Obsidian is a naturally occurring Volcanic glass formed as an extrusive igneous rock.

Why do I recall reading that the only fire hot enough to create obsidian is the breath of dragons?


Because you did read it.
 
2014-04-29 05:02:41 PM  

Strik3r: Oh....... How is obsidian made in the book?


Yea, in the spirit of answering this question:

And I am sure I missed what the heroes are supposed to actually do. What do they need to do to defeat the walkers (not a snark, I just missed it)?

I am just kind of wondering if making a bunch of dragonglass might be on someone's to-do list.
 
2014-04-29 05:18:04 PM  

Jim from Saint Paul: Slow To Return: Strik3r: Slow To Return: Strik3r: Sam discovered that they can be killed pretty easily if you use an obsidian weapon. (I'm guessing that the black stone spear tip he used to kill that WW was obsidian). Whatever else they do, they'll probably want to use obsidian weapons.

Oh?  How is obsidian made?

Obsidian is a naturally occurring Volcanic glass formed as an extrusive igneous rock.

Why do I recall reading that the only fire hot enough to create obsidian is the breath of dragons?

Because you did read it.


Your link doesn't say what you think it says.

"Obsidian. Forged in the fires of the gods, far below the earth. The hunted with that, thousands of years ago. The children worked no metal . . . In place of swords, they carried blades of obsidian."
-Maester Luwin

The only place we know of that has obsidian veins is Dragonstone, which is an active island volcano.
 
2014-04-29 05:21:21 PM  

redmid17: Jim from Saint Paul: Slow To Return: Strik3r: Slow To Return: Strik3r: Sam discovered that they can be killed pretty easily if you use an obsidian weapon. (I'm guessing that the black stone spear tip he used to kill that WW was obsidian). Whatever else they do, they'll probably want to use obsidian weapons.

Oh?  How is obsidian made?

Obsidian is a naturally occurring Volcanic glass formed as an extrusive igneous rock.

Why do I recall reading that the only fire hot enough to create obsidian is the breath of dragons?

Because you did read it.

Your link doesn't say what you think it says.

"Obsidian. Forged in the fires of the gods, far below the earth. The hunted with that, thousands of years ago. The children worked no metal . . . In place of swords, they carried blades of obsidian."
-Maester Luwin

The only place we know of that has obsidian veins is Dragonstone, which is an active island volcano.


My apologies for not being clear. I was suggesting that the poster had read it before, not that he was correct. I can see how an extra sentence would have made that clear.

At best, it's unclear if dragons can do it. It's probably unfounded rumor, nothing more.
 
2014-04-29 06:56:18 PM  

Jim from Saint Paul: meyerkev: patrick767: Gunther: GrendelMk1: There's no such thing. If the readers need a "breather", it's because they're idiots.

It's called the scene/sequel format, and pretty much every writer uses whether they realize it or not (Dean Koontz deliberately tried to avoid it with his thriller  Intensity, the only successful aversion I can think of). You need the occasional slower scene to contrast with the faster paced stuff - if you just have exciting scenes and no slower scenes the pacing feels off and after a while the exciting scenes stop being exciting and start being obnoxious.

It's something taught in every Creative Writing 101 course in the country. Saying there's "no such thing" makes me suspect you don't know a lot about writing.

However, no story needs close to 2,000 pages of slow build-up. I don't care how many plot lines there are. Robert Jordan ended up being far worse than Martin about that and even when book 10 came out and almost nothing happened in it, just like books 7-9, he still had fanboys claiming that the slow pace was "necessary" to set things up.

I can give you EVERYTHING that you need to know about Book 10 in 3 lines in reasonably spoiler-free fashion.

Her: "Have you seen Hawkwing's face, Toy".
Him: "No" *Is totally lying*
Her: *Knows he's totally lying.  This will pay off at the end of Book 11*

That's IT.  NOTHING HAPPENS.  A 900 page book in 3 lines.  NOTHING HAPPENS.

****WHEEL OF TIME BOOK 10 SPOILERS IN SPECTACULAR FASHION****

Keep in mind, I am not telling you to like the book AND I think books 9 and 10 could be condensed iunto 1 book (ala Matrin and books 4 and 5 of his series) I *AM* pointing out that it's character development that happens. The big event at Shador Logoth being the finale of book 9.

Mat and Tuon are courting. You are reading a mating dance. happened in books 3 and 4 with Perrin and Faile (and various books with Rand and his harem). Perrin scouting out the Shaido and in the course of this and book 11 becoming ...


So it's a romance novel in a fantasy setting? I'm not sure that's a selling point...
 
2014-04-29 07:29:28 PM  

Jim from Saint Paul: redmid17: Jim from Saint Paul: Slow To Return: Strik3r: Slow To Return: Strik3r: Sam discovered that they can be killed pretty easily if you use an obsidian weapon. (I'm guessing that the black stone spear tip he used to kill that WW was obsidian). Whatever else they do, they'll probably want to use obsidian weapons.

Oh?  How is obsidian made?

Obsidian is a naturally occurring Volcanic glass formed as an extrusive igneous rock.

Why do I recall reading that the only fire hot enough to create obsidian is the breath of dragons?

Because you did read it.

Your link doesn't say what you think it says.

"Obsidian. Forged in the fires of the gods, far below the earth. The hunted with that, thousands of years ago. The children worked no metal . . . In place of swords, they carried blades of obsidian."
-Maester Luwin

The only place we know of that has obsidian veins is Dragonstone, which is an active island volcano.

My apologies for not being clear. I was suggesting that the poster had read it before, not that he was correct. I can see how an extra sentence would have made that clear.

At best, it's unclear if dragons can do it. It's probably unfounded rumor, nothing more.


Ah sorry I clearly did not catch that.
 
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