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(WTOP)   Virginia's best and brightest leaders come together to discuss a solution for the bumper-to-bumper clusterfark that is I-66. Solution: TOLLS, TOLLS EVERYWHERE   (wtop.com) divider line 209
    More: Stupid, I-66, Virginia Department of Transportation, gridlocks, Loudoun, Capital Beltway, Transportation Secretary Aubrey Layne  
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4302 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Apr 2014 at 11:23 AM (12 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-04-28 08:59:34 AM
One possibility is adding new lanes, possibly with tolls.

HOT lanes are in fashion this past decade. In the previous decade BRT (bus rapid transit) was the thing to do. The feds are pushing GPS tracking for the next decade but not enough states are biting.
 
2014-04-28 09:21:48 AM
ah, the Garden State Parkway approach.  that is sure to be awesome.
 
2014-04-28 09:39:10 AM
Oh FFS.  That whole thing is so farked up, on a recent trip to NJ from FL we couldn't even find I-66.  It's like we slipped into the Negative Zone and emerged in a tunnel with signs for the Senate buildings.
 
2014-04-28 09:51:40 AM
One possibility is adding new lanes, possibly with tolls.

Adding more lanes just attracts more cars.  It doesn't reduce traffic one iota.  you had an extra lane, you are going to attract an additional lane's worth of new cars to the road.
 
2014-04-28 09:52:09 AM

Diogenes: Oh FFS.  That whole thing is so farked up, on a recent trip to NJ from FL we couldn't even find I-66.  It's like we slipped into the Negative Zone and emerged in a tunnel with signs for the Senate buildings.


What conceivable route from New Jersey to Florida would require one to get on 66?
 
2014-04-28 09:57:23 AM

Pocket Ninja: Diogenes: Oh FFS.  That whole thing is so farked up, on a recent trip to NJ from FL we couldn't even find I-66.  It's like we slipped into the Negative Zone and emerged in a tunnel with signs for the Senate buildings.

What conceivable route from New Jersey to Florida would require one to get on 66?


I think that's what we were looking for.  Isn't there a newish "I" that circumvents the district?  I thought that was 66.

Mom was navigating.  So there's a very strong possibility that was a large part of the problem.

But even with the rest of the beltway routes available, we still somehow ended up in the District at one point.  THAT I have no explanation for.  I worked in Crystal City for 6 years.  I did know my way around at one point.
 
2014-04-28 10:04:37 AM
66 circumvents nothing. It takes you on a beeline out through the exurbs and, finally, to the hinterlands. What you were looking for was 495 ("the beltway") around to 95. The fact that there is also a 395 and 295 in rather close proximity is what farks up all the through travelers.
 
2014-04-28 10:14:28 AM
Don't worry... there's more condos opening up soon.
That will cut down on all the traffic.
 
2014-04-28 10:15:05 AM

Pocket Ninja: 66 circumvents nothing. It takes you on a beeline out through the exurbs and, finally, to the hinterlands. What you were looking for was 495 ("the beltway") around to 95. The fact that there is also a 395 and 295 in rather close proximity is what farks up all the through travelers.


That does sound right.  I think Mom plotted the route on Mapquest based on a suggestion by my uncle that we could get on 66 for a short distance then hook around again.  Who knows?  It was use her directions, or try to teach her to my GPS on my phone while driving.

And he's always picking weird routes.  They used to drive down from NJ to visit my cousin at James Madison U.  So who knows what he was thinking.

I did OK on instinct.  But the constant construction makes it tough.
 
2014-04-28 10:23:27 AM
Pocket Ninja - better than Google Maps...
 
2014-04-28 10:27:16 AM

Pocket Ninja: Diogenes: Oh FFS.  That whole thing is so farked up, on a recent trip to NJ from FL we couldn't even find I-66.  It's like we slipped into the Negative Zone and emerged in a tunnel with signs for the Senate buildings.

What conceivable route from New Jersey to Florida would require one to get on 66?


I make the DC-to-NJ-to-DC drive all the time. Coming south, if you take 95 to the Beltway to the B-W Parkway to 50/NY Ave, you catch 395 South (at 4th St), which takes you past Senate building exits on your way past the Pentagon, Crystal City, and a metric fark-ton of construction that's been going on at least since I moved here almost 25 years ago.

Why you'd want to go that way, especially since you could stay with 50 to 301 South to bypass Fallout, is beyond me.
 
2014-04-28 11:18:32 AM

SlothB77: One possibility is adding new lanes, possibly with tolls.

Adding more lanes just attracts more cars.  It doesn't reduce traffic one iota.  you had an extra lane, you are going to attract an additional lane's worth of new cars to the road.


Here in L.A. they are adding a lane on both sides of the 405. Its supposed to ease traffic and gridlock, but all it will do is add more cars to the freeway. So, so stupid and a waste of time and money. Should of just added a metro line instead. So I can relate. Oh, and our lovely local politicians suggested making the 405's carpool lanes toll lanes. Like THAT will help traffic.
 
2014-04-28 11:26:39 AM

He also touts the idea of building the Orange Line further west, although he allows that "as we've seen with the Silver Line, that's not something that happens overnight."


Thank you, Major Obvious.


He got promoted
 
2014-04-28 11:28:36 AM
This has nothing to do with easing traffic.  They build the toll lanes, sell them to private companies to operate for 40 years, and bathe in the "free" money.
 
2014-04-28 11:29:10 AM
img.ksl.com
 
2014-04-28 11:30:46 AM
static.guim.co.uk
 
2014-04-28 11:33:53 AM

elbandito: This has nothing to do with easing traffic.  They build the toll lanes, sell them to private companies to operate for 40 years, and bathe in the "free" money.


Yup. That's it exactly. Toll lanes won't solve the problem, and is a way for government to build roads or lanes without paying for it. But those toll roads do not solve the farking problem because the tolls serve to keep most people still using the congested routes while the few people who can afford them cruise along at ease.

These HOT toll lanes/roads are an example of government failure.
 
2014-04-28 11:34:11 AM
Here in CO they want to add toll lanes to things because there isn't enough tax revenue to actually get highway projects done.  So CDOT just tells private companies that have the capital up front that they can foot the construction cost and then charge tolls and maintain the road.  In short, a private company owning the road for 50 to 99 years or whatever it is.  During that time, the local government is signed into a non-compete agreement and is barred from improving any roads that serve the same route, thereby handing the private ownership of the public road a monopoly that can't be broken.

Lovely.

If you don't think there are a ton of bribes being paid over that then you're nuts.

Of course in CO taxes cannot be raised without passing a popular vote and there are too many nutballs in this state to ever get a tax passed so while population rises and the state needs more money to cover everything including our aging infrastructure, the citizenry as a whole refuses to give the state any more money.  Public school expenditures are rapidly approaching MS/LA/AR level, lots of roads are in sad shape, and nothing can be done about it.
 
2014-04-28 11:35:23 AM
Well, tolls are a perfect way to convert highways paid for by tax dollars into cushy kickback generators handed out to your favorite corporate donors. I'm surprised they haven't brought Rick Perry in for a consultation.
 
2014-04-28 11:36:44 AM
A. The governor believes that toll lanes are a good solution. B. The governor is a super-rich, flaming asshole.

Could there be more than a correlation here?

/No, both sides are not equally bad; there's NOBODY in the Republican party who doesn't want to give everything to rich people. But McAuliffe is still a dick.
//Raise the farking gas tax. This does two things -- discourages driving (lowering congestion and pollution) and gives you money to build extra lanes and mass transit. It also encourages people to buy higher-mileage cars; there is no downside to it for anyone other than people addicted to big SUVs, and fark them.
 
2014-04-28 11:37:48 AM
Want to ease congestion on 66?  Fire all of those government bureaucrats that live out in Gainesville and Manassas.  Its completely the fault of these turds and their excessive commutes that HOV starts at 2pm in the afternoon.  Try doing something useful where you actually live.

Add in the turds that come up the Greenway from Leesburg and further out and you have a shiat storm when everything merges together.
 
2014-04-28 11:38:23 AM
It's funny that all these years they've claimed they can't widen 66 because there's no room for the extra lanes...but of course now there's room for HOT lanes.  Total BS.

/Takes 66 to work
//yes I'm bitter
 
2014-04-28 11:38:47 AM
Could have been worse. They might have added railroads. And bike lanes. And horse carriageways. And walking paths with greenways, with ten-foot-deep water features in which to drown people who get flat tires.
 
2014-04-28 11:39:14 AM

Diogenes: Pocket Ninja: 66 circumvents nothing. It takes you on a beeline out through the exurbs and, finally, to the hinterlands. What you were looking for was 495 ("the beltway") around to 95. The fact that there is also a 395 and 295 in rather close proximity is what farks up all the through travelers.

That does sound right.  I think Mom plotted the route on Mapquest based on a suggestion by my uncle that we could get on 66 for a short distance then hook around again.  Who knows?  It was use her directions, or try to teach her to my GPS on my phone while driving.

And he's always picking weird routes.  They used to drive down from NJ to visit my cousin at James Madison U.  So who knows what he was thinking.

I did OK on instinct.  But the constant construction makes it tough.


Ahhh - sounds like he wanted to take 66 to 81? Or maybe just cut through the city, and take the short stint of 66 inside the beltway to 495. I agree that getting onto 66 West from inside the district is... rather confusing.
 
2014-04-28 11:39:27 AM

ZAZ: One possibility is adding new lanes, possibly with tolls.

HOT lanes are in fashion this past decade. In the previous decade BRT (bus rapid transit) was the thing to do. The feds are pushing GPS tracking for the next decade but not enough states are biting.


HOT and BRT are the same to me,  For $7 each way I take a Bus from Leesburg that goes down the Dulles Greenway ($5.50 toll each way)   Then gets to use the "airport traffic only" lanes of the Dulles toll road ($2.50 each way) and only ever really encounters traffic when it hits Rt 66 in the morning.  If they put in a few special lanes there my commute would improve by about 20 mins and cost me nothing.

That said, philosophically t I still HATE the idea of HOT lanes.  You are letting private companies do, for a profit, the things that the basic essential functions of government, and you are doing it in the name of political cowardice.   You don;t have the balls to ask, upfront for the tax dollars you need to run this state properly, so you sneak regressive taxes like tolls on people and slam the poorest hardest.  (when you make $7/hr,  $15/day in tolls is a hell of a bite)
 
2014-04-28 11:39:29 AM
It'd be better (economically, at least) if the whole road had a small toll rather than just specific lanes.  That way the cost of using the public resource would be at least partially borne by the people using the resource as opposed to a "tragedy of the commons"-type situation ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons#Modern_commons ).
 
2014-04-28 11:39:40 AM
Back in my day, tolling meant something.
 
2014-04-28 11:40:47 AM
If you can't solve the misery, add to it.
 
2014-04-28 11:41:40 AM
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2014-04-28 11:42:02 AM
Move out of the sticks, gentlemen.
 
2014-04-28 11:43:21 AM
Fairfax County Supervisor Jeff McKay points to the success that the HOT Lanes have had in relieving congestion on the Beltway.

Which is fine if you can afford to pay for the HOT lanes asshole... Nothing like paying upwards of $8.00 for a one way trip during rush hour.
 
2014-04-28 11:43:59 AM

LandOfChocolate: Want to ease congestion on 66?  Fire all of those government bureaucrats that live out in Gainesville and Manassas.  Its completely the fault of these turds and their excessive commutes that HOV starts at 2pm in the afternoon.  Try doing something useful where you actually live.

Add in the turds that come up the Greenway from Leesburg and further out and you have a shiat storm when everything merges together.


There is a lot of truth to that.  On Federal holidays the traffic is basically cut in half on 66 and 495.  Almost makes for a pleasant commute, almost.
 
2014-04-28 11:44:19 AM

LazyMedia: A. The governor believes that toll lanes are a good solution. B. The governor is a super-rich, flaming asshole.

Could there be more than a correlation here?

/No, both sides are not equally bad; there's NOBODY in the Republican party who doesn't want to give everything to rich people. But McAuliffe is still a dick.
//Raise the farking gas tax. This does two things -- discourages driving (lowering congestion and pollution) and gives you money to build extra lanes and mass transit. It also encourages people to buy higher-mileage cars; there is no downside to it for anyone other than people addicted to big SUVs, and fark them.


Virginia has not raised there gas taxes in so long that VDOT  is becoming very close to being a repair only organization.  This has been forecast for some time, but as usual polticians bury there head in the sand, and the people riot about higher taxes always wanting something for nothing.
 
2014-04-28 11:45:18 AM
Remember this is Virginia.  Any new toll roads will be leased to private firms for 80 years if it's done like the beltway HOT lanes has been done.  So, if public needs change, too bad.

That's why I'm anti-tolling in Virginia.  If the state retained the lanes, they might not be as economically efficient, but they'll be able to change tolling regimes to meet changing needs.  For example, if you want to encourage adoption of self-driving cars, a toll discount would be useful.  But the Commonwealth isn't going to spend money on lanes, so we're stuck with 80 year giveaways to the private sector.
 
2014-04-28 11:45:31 AM
TFA:

McKay says, "Everybody seems to want to extend Metro here, there and everywhere," but he cautions that there's only so much more capacity you can build onto Metro before "the system fails."

He suggests a circulating bus that brings people to the Vienna Metro station.


You fu*king idiot.
If you honestly believe there aren't enough trains in the system to replace the vehicle traffic to the point where the train system is failing; then what the hell would a bus taking more people to the train station accomplish? What do you expect them to do once they get there? Punt?
 
2014-04-28 11:45:45 AM

mongbiohazard: elbandito: This has nothing to do with easing traffic.  They build the toll lanes, sell them to private companies to operate for 40 years, and bathe in the "free" money.

Yup. That's it exactly. Toll lanes won't solve the problem, and is a way for government to build roads or lanes without paying for it. But those toll roads do not solve the farking problem because the tolls serve to keep most people still using the congested routes while the few people who can afford them cruise along at ease.

These HOT toll lanes/roads are an example of government failure.


Poor people deserve to be stuck in traffic. Only the 1%ers that can afford toll tags will be able to drive in these new wider luxury lanes, traffic free.

The poors will be prosecuted for even looking at the those lanes and summarily beaten.
 
2014-04-28 11:45:54 AM
I want to smack anyone who says "Let's extend the Orange Line." If you want to build an entirely new line, with it's own tunnel under the river, then we'll talk.
 
2014-04-28 11:46:58 AM

LazyMedia: A. The governor believes that toll lanes are a good solution. B. The governor is a super-rich, flaming asshole.

Could there be more than a correlation here?

/No, both sides are not equally bad; there's NOBODY in the Republican party who doesn't want to give everything to rich people. But McAuliffe is still a dick.
//Raise the farking gas tax. This does two things -- discourages driving (lowering congestion and pollution) and gives you money to build extra lanes and mass transit. It also encourages people to buy higher-mileage cars; there is no downside to it for anyone other than people addicted to big SUVs, and fark them.


Fark you, raise the gas tax. Some of us have jobs we have to commute too and children we have to see to school. The price of gas is THREE TIMES what it was about 15 years ago and sometimes during that peroiod is QUADRIPLED. You bike to work and you reuse your trashbags. Congrats. Reduce your footprint for those who don't. But don't start trying to legislate "discouraging driving" until you've invested enough in public transportation, which we KNOW hasn't happened. We all don't live walking distance from our jobs.
 
2014-04-28 11:47:00 AM

mongbiohazard: elbandito: This has nothing to do with easing traffic.  They build the toll lanes, sell them to private companies to operate for 40 years, and bathe in the "free" money.

Yup. That's it exactly. Toll lanes won't solve the problem, and is a way for government to build roads or lanes without paying for it. But those toll roads do not solve the farking problem because the tolls serve to keep most people still using the congested routes while the few people who can afford them cruise along at ease.

These HOT toll lanes/roads are an example of government failure.


HOT toll lanes are an example of a poor tax.
 
2014-04-28 11:47:47 AM

Magorn: so you sneak regressive taxes like tolls on people and slam the poorest hardest.  (when you make $7/hr,  $15/day in tolls is a hell of a bite)


These "poor" people have cars! How can they be poor? Hurr durr derpidy derp

/also 99.9342% of them have refrigerators too
 
2014-04-28 11:48:42 AM
So, the bailout traffic will clog 50 and 29..Even more
 
2014-04-28 11:50:42 AM
1. Rip out the seats in the Orange and soon-to-open Silver lines and install a single row of seats facing in on each side to instantly boost metro capacity.

2. Get to work with expanding parking at the suburban metro stations.

3. Add a metro line out through Annadale into Fairfax, don't hook it up to the Blue/Orange tracks as those are going to be running at capacity if the Silver Line ever opens.

With some luck the Silver Line will ease up 66, every three fully loaded metro trains per hour is about equivalent to a highway lane operating at peak capacity, so you'd expect it to have some decent impact.
 
2014-04-28 11:50:54 AM

DROxINxTHExWIND: Fark you, raise the gas tax. Some of us have jobs we have to commute too and children we have to see to school.


Net time, buy a small, old house in Falls Church rather than a big, new one in Haymarket.
 
2014-04-28 11:51:23 AM

Phelon Hardtimes: LandOfChocolate: Want to ease congestion on 66?  Fire all of those government bureaucrats that live out in Gainesville and Manassas.  Its completely the fault of these turds and their excessive commutes that HOV starts at 2pm in the afternoon.  Try doing something useful where you actually live.

Add in the turds that come up the Greenway from Leesburg and further out and you have a shiat storm when everything merges together.

There is a lot of truth to that.  On Federal holidays the traffic is basically cut in half on 66 and 495.  Almost makes for a pleasant commute, almost.


You've never driven 66 on a  sunny weekend afternoon, then. Swear that road should be re-signed 6-66.
 
2014-04-28 11:52:09 AM
Adding lanes to any interstate is not the solution for traffic problems. In order to address interstate traffic problems one must build other options for motorist to take to reach their destination. Interstates should not be used by motorist who are only commuting a few miles, but in many areas there is no other options then to enter the interstate only to exit a few miles later. There is also the lack of driving skill to address where people enter the instate and move to the far left lane only to go a few miles and then stop/slow down to attempt to move back into the far right to exit the interstate.
 
2014-04-28 11:52:10 AM

Datanerd: Remember this is Virginia.  Any new toll roads will be leased to private firms for 80 years if it's done like the beltway HOT lanes has been done.  So, if public needs change, too bad.

That's why I'm anti-tolling in Virginia.  If the state retained the lanes, they might not be as economically efficient, but they'll be able to change tolling regimes to meet changing needs.  For example, if you want to encourage adoption of self-driving cars, a toll discount would be useful.  But the Commonwealth isn't going to spend money on lanes, so we're stuck with 80 year giveaways to the private sector.


Let also not forget that in the Beltway contract the company that built the HOT lanes also snuck in an "anti-competition clause" in their contract that effectively forbids VA from building new roads or lanes to help alleviate beltway congestion and make those lanes less necessary
 
2014-04-28 11:53:10 AM

Wellon Dowd: DROxINxTHExWIND: Fark you, raise the gas tax. Some of us have jobs we have to commute too and children we have to see to school.

Net time, buy a small, old house in Falls Church rather than a big, new one in Haymarket.


Pretty sure he lives in Maryland which means he is a problem on the road no matter which way he is heading.
 
2014-04-28 11:53:24 AM

Sim Tree: TFA:

McKay says, "Everybody seems to want to extend Metro here, there and everywhere," but he cautions that there's only so much more capacity you can build onto Metro before "the system fails."

He suggests a circulating bus that brings people to the Vienna Metro station.

You fu*king idiot.
If you honestly believe there aren't enough trains in the system to replace the vehicle traffic to the point where the train system is failing; then what the hell would a bus taking more people to the train station accomplish? What do you expect them to do once they get there? Punt?


They should make a line that runs under the entire Beltway and be done with it. Having the spokes is nice, but having the wheel with them might be nicer.

// and then build out the concentric-rings idea for 3 Beltways
 
2014-04-28 11:53:34 AM

maudibjr: Virginia has not raised there gas taxes in so long that VDOT  is becoming very close to being a repair only organization.  This has been forecast for some time, but as usual polticians bury there head in the sand, and the people riot about higher taxes always wanting something for nothing.


Eh? Virginia recently raised sales taxes to improve funding for infrastructure. We'll have to see if it offsets the gas-tax cut but it's not like they're not trying anything.
 
2014-04-28 11:53:56 AM
This nonsense gets me fired up everytime I see it.  The government makes more on a gallon of gas through their taxes then any other person in the fuel pipeline.  They're supposed to use that money to build and maintain the roads.  Government has found its really easy to take the money from the transportation pot and use it anywhere they want. In Maryland they cleaned it out and now road work simply cant be done.  Make it so that income from gas tax can only be used for road construction and maintenance. We wouldnt see the need for tolls on roads that we've already paid for.  I'll get flamed for this next comment, but it hit me the other day when I couldnt use 66 because it was during the HOV-3 period. People who car pool are paying less per mile to use the roads then I am, since the gas cost is divided by 3. Get rid of the HOV lanes, get rid of the toll roads and let the govt actually do one of the things they're supposed to do, and provide services based on the income they receive specifically for that reason.
 
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