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(Rome News-Tribune)   If you had three days after Georgia's "guns in bars" bill was signed for the first fatal shooting in a bar, come on up and collect your prize   (northwestgeorgianews.com) divider line 355
    More: Obvious, Floyd County, guns  
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11977 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Apr 2014 at 8:12 PM (47 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-27 09:30:05 PM  

Thingster: thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not a hell of a lot more.  I would like to see what the failure rate is for people that take the course to get the CHL.  If it is under 10% then they are just wasting everybody's time and they cancel the requirement.

What are the CCW application requirements in your state?

Dont be a felon.

oh and...no, thats all.

PA, not philadelphia?


Farking Texas, unfortunately.  I know, I konow "move!"  I plan to as soon I get a job in Colorado.
 
2014-04-27 09:30:06 PM  

jehovahs witness protection: theprinceofwands: bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.

No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

You mean like obamacare?
Yes...his BS is unconstitutional too.


Well, that's a whole different can of worms.

Yes, I think it's unconstitutional as well, however this is different. NO WHERE in the Constitution will you see an enumerated right to not have medical care, or to drive a car. There IS an enumerated right to bear arms. At both the federal, and almost all state levels.

Once you account for protection against economic disenfranchisement via the 14th, we're covered against insurance requirements.
 
2014-04-27 09:32:08 PM  

Flappyhead: theprinceofwands: bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.

No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

Suuuuure it would.  Turn down the hyperbole dial a little.


No hyperbole whatsoever. In fact, there are a number of militias that have included this in their 'bright line' statements.
 
2014-04-27 09:32:15 PM  

trekkiecougar: trekkiecougar: GORDON: Did the dude who got shot have it coming?  A lot of people in the world are figuratively begging to be shot, don't you think?

No! The shooter got kicked out of the club and was pissed off about it, so he got a gun (probably from his car) and went back in and started shooting randomly. The victim who died - who had just moved down here from PA a couple of weeks ago - was an innocent bystander, shot in the back of the head, fell with his hands still in his jeans pockets..........

/victim was my daughter's girlfriend's cousin.....the family is devastated.......

Repeating this for those who want to blame the victim.....


source?
 
2014-04-27 09:32:27 PM  

theorellior: [www.mindhuestudio.com image 600x337]


Cute.

But no.

You see, both guns and abortion are rights, neither should be subject to stupid restrictions.
 
2014-04-27 09:33:34 PM  

Deathfrogg: Hobodeluxe: GORDON: Did the dude who got shot have it coming?  A lot of people in the world are figuratively begging to be shot, don't you think?

just looking at his FB page I'd have to say yeah he probably had it coming.

I wonder about the other 3 injured though.

3am in a bar is no place to be any way.

Sez the guy who's probably never worked swing shift.


I've worked them all. 1st,2nd,3rd, 12 hour swings (popular in the carpet mills here in No Ga) Drove trucks for a while. and I know that hanging in one of these dive bars til closing time is just asking for trouble. People get drunk on their ass and they get pissed because their lives suck and they don't want to go home,or they didn't pick up anyone to take home,or they lost money shooting pool or they're just angry drunks.
 
2014-04-27 09:33:48 PM  

Hobodeluxe: GORDON: Did the dude who got shot have it coming?  A lot of people in the world are figuratively begging to be shot, don't you think?

just looking at his FB page I'd have to say yeah he probably had it coming.

I wonder about the other 3 injured though.

3am in a bar is no place to be any way.


Do you have any idea how many times I've gotten laid because I was in a bar at 3am?  The hell if it's no place to be.  It can be the best place to be.
 
2014-04-27 09:33:50 PM  

Thingster: PA, not philadelphia?


Pennsylvania has a municipal preemption law in regards to firearms. State law is the *only* law. The only difference in Philadelphia versus the rest of the state is that you must have a valid Pennsylvania concealed carry permit to open carry in Philadelphia County.
 
2014-04-27 09:35:10 PM  

HawgWild: theprinceofwands: 4. Regardless of our level of violence, we really don't have nearly as much freedom as we like to pretend (and it continues to decline).

Name a freedom you don't have anymore.


Freedom to not be forced to purchase insurance or pay a fine.
Freedom to speak and/or assemble peacefully (without undue burden at least).
Freedom from unwarranted search & seizure.
Freedom from unjust detention without speedy trial.

Those are just a couple off the top of my head...given the least inclination I could go on for quite a while (mostly without ever going beyond W's terms of office btw).
 
2014-04-27 09:35:11 PM  

DarkVader: theorellior: [www.mindhuestudio.com image 600x337]

Cute.

But no.

You see, both guns and abortion are rights, neither should be subject to stupid restrictions.


YOU!  are absolutely correct.
 
2014-04-27 09:36:45 PM  
okay my bad I thought the deceased was the shooter and they weren't releasing the victims. I misread it. Still the guy who got shot has a lot of "attitude" on his FB page.
 
2014-04-27 09:37:19 PM  

thisisarepeat: Thingster: thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not a hell of a lot more.  I would like to see what the failure rate is for people that take the course to get the CHL.  If it is under 10% then they are just wasting everybody's time and they cancel the requirement.

What are the CCW application requirements in your state?

Dont be a felon.

oh and...no, thats all.

PA, not philadelphia?

Farking Texas, unfortunately.  I know, I konow "move!"  I plan to as soon I get a job in Colorado.


Not saying move, just didn't know any state handed it CCWs like PA.

No prints, just an application, minimal record, no felonies, references.

You get your permit in 10ish days unless you're in Philadelphia. They fark everything up.
 
2014-04-27 09:37:21 PM  

HawgWild: Violence is the price we pay for our freedom ...


Horseshiat. There are plenty of less free places with more violence. And more free places with less violence.
 
2014-04-27 09:37:44 PM  
Deserve's got nothing to do with it...
 
2014-04-27 09:37:59 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.


Hmm well maybe we need to enforce that standard all around. Fingerprints, NICS check, photos, and all that stuff would definately weed out more people undeserving of owning a gun, more so than the simple 2 hour class and quick felony check.
 
2014-04-27 09:38:04 PM  

slykens1: Thingster: PA, not philadelphia?

Pennsylvania has a municipal preemption law in regards to firearms. State law is the *only* law. The only difference in Philadelphia versus the rest of the state is that you must have a valid Pennsylvania concealed carry permit to open carry in Philadelphia County.


With the exception of the open carry silly law, there's no good reason to prohibit a citizen who's not been clearly proven to be incapable of acting responsibly (i.e., no felonies, restraining orders related to violence, mental deficiency) from carrying concealed or openly.  Statistics and history clearly show that these people are not the problem.  In fact, if one state clears a person, they should have that right in all states.
 
2014-04-27 09:39:56 PM  
Well, I was chatting to the owner of the LGS the other day and got on the subject of selling guns to the mentally unstable, he said that he's been able to avoid that problem so far...as best as he knows, since the cops come to check sales records after a gun is recovered [small town].  I suggested that if we had a perfect way to tell who was unstable enough to use a gun to commit a crime, we would not need any gun laws, but we both laughed at the notion that such a perfect test would EVER be available.

I just think large crowds drinking generates enough problems, throwing loaded firearms into the mix does not seem like a way to HELP any.

Really, it's bad enough to see to macho's have to slug it out over some perceived insult that they won't even REMEMBER tomorrow, but at least both of them usually wake up.  Give one drunk macho a gun and then only one of 'em does maybe, or maybe some innocent bystanders get caught in a bunch of nitwits shooting...Sure it can happen anytime, but more guns just seems logically to mean it can happen more frequently.  This is not really a GUN issue, it's a people issue.
 
2014-04-27 09:40:21 PM  

theprinceofwands: jehovahs witness protection: theprinceofwands: bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.

No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

You mean like obamacare?
Yes...his BS is unconstitutional too.

Well, that's a whole different can of worms.

Yes, I think it's unconstitutional as well, however this is different. NO WHERE in the Constitution will you see an enumerated right to not have medical care, or to drive a car. There IS an enumerated right to bear arms. At both the federal, and almost all state levels.

Once you account for protection against economic disenfranchisement via the 14th, we're covered against insurance requirements.


I see some of you did not read my posts. Buying insurance is to protect you when you are sued, which you surely will be by the person you shot, their relatives, local, state or federal government. Legal fees are a bit expensive.
 
2014-04-27 09:42:13 PM  

theprinceofwands: Flappyhead: theprinceofwands: bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.

No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

Suuuuure it would.  Turn down the hyperbole dial a little.

No hyperbole whatsoever. In fact, there are a number of militias that have included this in their 'bright line' statements.


The "cold, dead hands" crowd are a bunch of phonies. If the government passed a law banning guns tomorrow there would be a very small number of holdouts. Acting tough is easy to do in the absence of any realistic chance that they will be put to the test. Put them to that test and they'll fold.
 
2014-04-27 09:42:34 PM  

theprinceofwands: stoli n coke: i have to ask, what do CCW holders hope to accomplish with a law like this?

Not even figuring in the intoxication factor, bars are often crowded, it's loud, it's dark, sometimes there's pushing and shoving. If they were suddenly faced with the "bad guy with a gun" scenario they get excited over, it seems they'd be more likely to shoot someone who had nothing to do with it. FFS, even Old West Saloons didn't want firearms inside.

It's the same reason guns in movie theaters is a horrible idea.

Well for me it's a big pain in the butt to have to disarm every time I walk into someplace 21 and over. It can create panic when people see me pulling the gun out in the parking lot. It opens me to having it stolen if my vehicle is broken into. It creates an opportunity for an accident (like an accidental discharge).

Further, none of what you say has any factual, statistical backing. There are almost no accidental shootings from permit holders. A few, certainly, but its very VERY rare. It's simply not a reasonable issue. What's more, there have almost never been any significant events from lawful carry of any kind, only the rare random accident. Nearly all crime is, and always has been, from criminals intent on committing the crimes.


So almost no accidental shootings from permit holders, except for those accidental shootings from permit holders?

I am simply wondering what is the point of going into a bar armed. One of the first rules you learn when you learn to shoot is to always know what is behind your target. Even if the "bad guy with a gun" scenario ever happens, it's a situation where the thing behind your target is likely to be another person. If you don't think that scenario is going to happen, what's the point of having it with you?

And what exactly is so difficult about putting the gun in the glove box before you pull into the bar parking lot?
 
2014-04-27 09:42:55 PM  

slykens1: Thingster: PA, not philadelphia?

Pennsylvania has a municipal preemption law in regards to firearms. State law is the *only* law. The only difference in Philadelphia versus the rest of the state is that you must have a valid Pennsylvania concealed carry permit to open carry in Philadelphia County.


I know, but philly levers the morality clause that everyone else ignores.

Philly will deny an ltcf over a dui if they don't like you.
 
2014-04-27 09:44:06 PM  

bojon: theprinceofwands: jehovahs witness protection: theprinceofwands: bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.

No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

You mean like obamacare?
Yes...his BS is unconstitutional too.

Well, that's a whole different can of worms.

Yes, I think it's unconstitutional as well, however this is different. NO WHERE in the Constitution will you see an enumerated right to not have medical care, or to drive a car. There IS an enumerated right to bear arms. At both the federal, and almost all state levels.

Once you account for protection against economic disenfranchisement via the 14th, we're covered against insurance requirements.

I see some of you did not read my posts. Buying insurance is to protect you when you are sued, which you surely will be by the person you shot, their relatives, local, state or federal government. Legal fees are a bit expensive.


Not with proper SYG protections in place. It is my sincere hope to soon see them applied at the national level in an omnibus 'self-defense' statute.
 
2014-04-27 09:45:54 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: The "cold, dead hands" crowd are a bunch of phonies. If the government passed a law banning guns tomorrow there would be a very small number of holdouts. Acting tough is easy to do in the absence of any realistic chance that they will be put to the test. Put them to that test and they'll fold.


I'm always amused when I hear those idiots talk about how easy it would be to overthrow a country.

They'd run like little girls.
 
2014-04-27 09:47:09 PM  

OnlyM3: fusillade762 [TotalFark]

Has the law even gone into effect yet?
Subby is a typical ignorant. you can already legally carry in a bar in GA. Has been legal to do so for years.

The headline should be "Years after GA allows guns in bars, 1 person out of the hundreds libtards predicted got shot."

Same bullshiat as claiming 1 record high temp "proves" global warming.


Hey, Captain Hyperbole, nobody has ever claimed any of straw man things you're making up here.

1) Headline says after the law was signed, and it's specifically in reference to the recently-passed HB 60, which specifically makes references to bars - so obviously there's some kind of change to the previous law, which can't have been as free-and-clear about guns in bars or HB 60 wouldn't have any "bar" related language in it.

2) Please do show us where anyone ever predicted hundreds of people would be shot in bars if this passed.

3) Please do show us where anyone ever said one record-high temp proves global warming. (And BTW, there are literally thousands of instances of people claiming one winter storm disproves global warming - just look at Facebook and Twitter from a few months ago.)

If you don't have anything of value to bring to the conversation, fark off.
 
2014-04-27 09:48:05 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.


It depends on the state, there are a couple states that'll basically just hand 'em to you.

However, GA's CCP has reciprocity with TX (in both directions, I think), so I can guarantee you that they require the 8-hour legal course + conflict resolution training (literally police refresher training in most cases) and the range-based proficiency demonstration at minimum.

Also, it's most likely still illegal to carry while  intoxicated, I don't think there's a state in the union where that's not a felony, frequently one harsh enough to carry jail time.


theprinceofwands: Well for me it's a big pain in the butt to have to disarm every time I walk into someplace 21 and over. It can create panic when people see me pulling the gun out in the parking lot. It opens me to having it stolen if my vehicle is broken into. It creates an opportunity for an accident (like an accidental discharge).


Look, I have some degree of sympathy with your annoyance, but you really have to understand that that's all that it is... annoyance.  Handle the gun properly, in this case by removing it from the holster before exiting the vehicle and stowing it somewhere that it isn't visible, and don't ever draw it with your dumbass finger on the farking trigger in any situation you're not actually trying to shoot something, and literally none of that is any kind of real hazard at all.

I've disarmed hundreds of times outside no-CC areas (I work in one) and never once have I even come close to being careless enough that any of those things were a possibility.  If there's any non-negligible chance of accidental discharge when you disarm, especially, you're bad enough at handling the weapon that you're a danger to yourself and others just from having it and should probably stop carrying altogether.

That is not hyperbole or a joke: if there is some potential for a negligent discharge to occur in the course of pulling your piece out of a holster and sticking it into a concealed auto compartment (or I suppose seat holder) then you  should not be in the possession of a firearm.

// If you seriously got to the age where you can possess a CCP without once doing something stupid or dangerously clumsy in the "barely avoided injury" sense... then you're a damned liar, of course you have.  And thus you understand damned well why the gun should not go into the bar.  Even if you're not inebriated you're someone else's drunken stumble plus some bad luck from a hole in the proprietor's nice bar stools.
 
2014-04-27 09:48:07 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: theprinceofwands: Flappyhead: theprinceofwands: bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.

No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

Suuuuure it would.  Turn down the hyperbole dial a little.

No hyperbole whatsoever. In fact, there are a number of militias that have included this in their 'bright line' statements.

The "cold, dead hands" crowd are a bunch of phonies. If the government passed a law banning guns tomorrow there would be a very small number of holdouts. Acting tough is easy to do in the absence of any realistic chance that they will be put to the test. Put them to that test and they'll fold.


I'll put my money on 10-30 million active participants, with up to 150-200 million siding with them. Remember that ~85% of citizens object to even handgun bans, and that's what's responsible for ~75% of violence. As evidence I would remind you that many of us already joined the military, often during a time of war, demonstrating that we are fully prepared to kill or die for what we believe in.

Further, it wouldn't matter since a large percent of 'the state' would refuse to participate against citizens, rendering the need for active engagement irrelevant.
 
2014-04-27 09:48:24 PM  

Thingster: thisisarepeat: Thingster: thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not a hell of a lot more.  I would like to see what the failure rate is for people that take the course to get the CHL.  If it is under 10% then they are just wasting everybody's time and they cancel the requirement.

What are the CCW application requirements in your state?

Dont be a felon.

oh and...no, thats all.

PA, not philadelphia?

Farking Texas, unfortunately.  I know, I konow "move!"  I plan to as soon I get a job in Colorado.

Not saying move, just didn't know any state handed it CCWs like PA.

No prints, just an application, minimal record, no felonies, references.

You get your permit in 10ish days unless you're in Philadelphia. They fark everything up.


Texas requires fingerprinting.  I let my permit expire, not because of the indignity of being told "dont help" by a sheriffs deputy that looks like he just waddled off the set of "My 600 lb Life" but because its legal to have a loaded firearm in your vehicle and they only place I go where I feel like I need to carry anything is when I go to the V.A. hospital in Dallas and when I get into the parking lot I don't really feel like I need it anymore.
 
2014-04-27 09:49:37 PM  

100 Watt Walrus: 2) Please do show us where anyone ever predicted hundreds of people would be shot in bars if this passed.


It was implied in trollmitter's headline, with his "What, only three days?" schtick, which intimates that wow, it sure didn't take very long so more should be expected.
 
2014-04-27 09:49:48 PM  

theprinceofwands: Flappyhead: theprinceofwands: bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.

No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

Suuuuure it would.  Turn down the hyperbole dial a little.

No hyperbole whatsoever. In fact, there are a number of militias that have included this in their 'bright line' statements.


Yes because those redneck yokels represent the entire country.  You know what would have happened in Nevada had government officers called the bluff of those nitwits?  A lot of pants shiatting and a stampede of 40somethings running as fast as they could in the opposite direction.
 
2014-04-27 09:50:37 PM  

100 Watt Walrus: OnlyM3: fusillade762 [TotalFark]

Has the law even gone into effect yet?
Subby is a typical ignorant. you can already legally carry in a bar in GA. Has been legal to do so for years.

The headline should be "Years after GA allows guns in bars, 1 person out of the hundreds libtards predicted got shot."

Same bullshiat as claiming 1 record high temp "proves" global warming.

Hey, Captain Hyperbole, nobody has ever claimed any of straw man things you're making up here.

1) Headline says after the law was signed, and it's specifically in reference to the recently-passed HB 60, which specifically makes references to bars - so obviously there's some kind of change to the previous law, which can't have been as free-and-clear about guns in bars or HB 60 wouldn't have any "bar" related language in it.

2) Please do show us where anyone ever predicted hundreds of people would be shot in bars if this passed.

3) Please do show us where anyone ever said one record-high temp proves global warming. (And BTW, there are literally thousands of instances of people claiming one winter storm disproves global warming - just look at Facebook and Twitter from a few months ago.)

If you don't have anything of value to bring to the conversation, fark off.


The point is clear.  One thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Linking the two is nothing more than pure idiocy.  Subby engaged in it, the mods supported it.  The new laws have nothing to do with this shooting.
 
2014-04-27 09:51:00 PM  

Pokey.Clyde: EvilEgg: My solution is they have to wear their permits like badges.

Kind of defeats the purpose of concealed carry, doesn't it?

/didn't think that one all the way through, did you?


And, if you are truly a respectable conceal carry owner, no one shoul be able to tell you have a weapon on you. That's the basis for it. You don't show it off or tell anyone you have it. Best case scenario: you are packing a concealed carry weapon, you go to a public establishment that allows it, have fun or whatever, then leave without anyone ever knowing or suspecting you had a gun at all. If there's an outrage about someone having a concealed weapon in a place that allows it then they abviously aren't adhering to the "concealed" part and are either careless or just stupidly flashing their weapon. Trust me, no one would know i had my gun on me unless I wanted them to and yet I can draw it in an instant i need be.
 
2014-04-27 09:51:11 PM  

Jim_Callahan: Also, it's most likely still illegal to carry while intoxicated, I don't think there's a state in the union where that's not a felony, frequently one harsh enough to carry jail time.


It's not a felony in Pennsylvania. You can get as drunk as you want to. If it's not forbidden in the Uniform Firearms Code it's not forbidden anywhere thanks to preemption.
 
2014-04-27 09:53:25 PM  

Bullseyed: ZAZ: The law goes into effect July 1, according to CNN.

Liberals never let facts get in the way of their fascism.

If the law had been in effect, a good guy could have stopped him.


Yeah, I came here to say:  If everyone in the bar had been carrying, none of this would have happened.
 
2014-04-27 09:53:42 PM  

theprinceofwands: Adolf Oliver Nipples: theprinceofwands: Flappyhead: theprinceofwands: bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.

No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

Suuuuure it would.  Turn down the hyperbole dial a little.

No hyperbole whatsoever. In fact, there are a number of militias that have included this in their 'bright line' statements.

The "cold, dead hands" crowd are a bunch of phonies. If the government passed a law banning guns tomorrow there would be a very small number of holdouts. Acting tough is easy to do in the absence of any realistic chance that they will be put to the test. Put them to that test and they'll fold.

I'll put my money on 10-30 million active participants, with up to 150-200 million siding with them. Remember that ~85% of citizens object to even handgun bans, and that's what's responsible for ~75% of violence. As evidence I would remind you that many of us already joined the military, often during a time of war, demonstrating that we are fully prepared to kill or die for what we believe in.

Further, it wouldn't matter since a large percent of 'the state' would refuse to participate against citizens, rendering the need for active engagement irrelevant.


I have a hard time believing you typed that with a straight face.
 
2014-04-27 09:56:37 PM  

ronaprhys: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: I never said crime. I said violence. There is a huge difference.

Intentional violence is taking the same hypothetical farktard mentioned above, putting him in a situation that causes him to discharge the weapon voluntarily - like shooting an immediate threat.

Unintentional violence is the farktard leaving the gun loaded and easily available where a toddler finds it.

A proper vetting process with safety training, target proficiency, proof of insurance, and preferably a mental health evaluation helps minimize that aspect of the problem.

So, you attempt to limit your failed argument to something that's also failed? Prove that relaxing firearm laws actually leads to an increase in firearm violence.  Do so with actual facts and statistics.  Show a clear trend, not cherry picked anecdotes or logic that's been disproven by actual history.


http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_04.pdf

2010 numbers.

Strong disparity in death for young (under 44) men of African-American and Hispanic races versus white or female rates. Crime problem - can be attacked by changing stance on drugs and better anti poverty measures.

Noticeable spike in injuries and death per capita of firearm discharge in areas with large urban centers (DC) and in extremely remote areas (Wyoming, Alaska, New Mexico) leading to the conclusion that gun deaths happen more frequently where large percentages of the population have access to firearms (legal and illegal).
 
2014-04-27 09:56:44 PM  

Jim_Callahan: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

It depends on the state, there are a couple states that'll basically just hand 'em to you.

However, GA's CCP has reciprocity with TX (in both directions, I think), so I can guarantee you that they require the 8-hour legal course + conflict resolution training (literally police refresher training in most cases) and the range-based proficiency demonstration at minimum.

Also, it's most likely still illegal to carry while  intoxicated, I don't think there's a state in the union where that's not a felony, frequently one harsh enough to carry jail time.


theprinceofwands: Well for me it's a big pain in the butt to have to disarm every time I walk into someplace 21 and over. It can create panic when people see me pulling the gun out in the parking lot. It opens me to having it stolen if my vehicle is broken into. It creates an opportunity for an accident (like an accidental discharge).

Look, I have some degree of sympathy with your annoyance, but you really have to understand that that's all that it is... annoyance.  Handle the gun properly, in this case by removing it from the holster before exiting the vehicle and stowing it somewhere that it isn't visible, and don't ever draw it with your dumbass finger on the farking trigger in any situation you're not actually trying to shoot something, and literally none of that is any kind of real hazard at all.

I've disarmed hundreds of times outside no-CC areas (I work in one) and never once have I even come close to being careless enough that any of those things were a possibility.  If there's any non-negligible chance of accidental discharge when you disarm, especially, you're bad enough at handling the weapon that you're a danger to yourself and others just from having it and should probably stop carrying altogether.

That is not hyperbole or a joke: if there is some potential for a negligent discharge to occur in the ...


I'd submit that it depends on the bar.  In both states where I hold a CPL or CCW, the laws are slightly different.  In MI, it's a place where the primary income is liquor.  In Ohio, it's allowable in bars.  However, in neither is it allowable to have a drink while carrying.  So, if I'm going into a sparsely-populated bar, it's really no different than a restaurant.  In fact, if I've a decent holster, the drunk falling into me is a negligible issue.

I'm not saying I'd necessarily carry into a bar - but that should be a personal choice, not a legislative one.
 
2014-04-27 09:56:56 PM  

stoli n coke: theprinceofwands: stoli n coke: i have to ask, what do CCW holders hope to accomplish with a law like this?

Not even figuring in the intoxication factor, bars are often crowded, it's loud, it's dark, sometimes there's pushing and shoving. If they were suddenly faced with the "bad guy with a gun" scenario they get excited over, it seems they'd be more likely to shoot someone who had nothing to do with it. FFS, even Old West Saloons didn't want firearms inside.

It's the same reason guns in movie theaters is a horrible idea.

Well for me it's a big pain in the butt to have to disarm every time I walk into someplace 21 and over. It can create panic when people see me pulling the gun out in the parking lot. It opens me to having it stolen if my vehicle is broken into. It creates an opportunity for an accident (like an accidental discharge).

Further, none of what you say has any factual, statistical backing. There are almost no accidental shootings from permit holders. A few, certainly, but its very VERY rare. It's simply not a reasonable issue. What's more, there have almost never been any significant events from lawful carry of any kind, only the rare random accident. Nearly all crime is, and always has been, from criminals intent on committing the crimes.

So almost no accidental shootings from permit holders, except for those accidental shootings from permit holders?

I am simply wondering what is the point of going into a bar armed. One of the first rules you learn when you learn to shoot is to always know what is behind your target. Even if the "bad guy with a gun" scenario ever happens, it's a situation where the thing behind your target is likely to be another person. If you don't think that scenario is going to happen, what's the point of having it with you?

And what exactly is so difficult about putting the gun in the glove box before you pull into the bar parking lot?


There are tens of millions of people carrying weapons legally in the US. Having a handful experience accidents is a statistical imperative, but also wholly irrelevant. The numbers are simply too small to matter in any way, shape or form.

The point is the same as being armed anywhere - readiness for defense when essential. Your right to protect yourself doesn't expire when you walk into a bar or other off-limits location (or at least it shouldn't).

It certainly wouldn't be an ideal shooting environment, however in a serious event when the alternative is almost certain death or injury it's probably better to do your best and hope. The right to defense is, or should, trump the potential for possible accident stemming from exercising that absolute right.

You want me to sit forward, reach under my coat/shirt, free my sidearm, open the glove compartment (or in my case my gun safe), and safely stow my weapon WHILE driving??? I think the police and the NHTSA might have something to say about that. Never mind the fact that one should NEVER disarm until absolutely required by law as it creates a 'helpless zone' where you are open to harm.
 
2014-04-27 09:57:53 PM  

OnlyM3: Mugato [TotalFark]

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.
Why is it not at all surprising that the guy that supports the government restricting the First also hates the Second.

// Also not surprised you lie about the facts. A carry permit has nothing to do with gun-shows.


Don't let facts get in the way of a good spin?? how dare you!
 
2014-04-27 09:58:22 PM  

Deathfrogg: Then there's this guy.

I'm sure the NRA would just love to put him in their commercials.


Oh, no one cares about the Georgia gun owner who repelled an angry mob all by himself without firing a shot.
 
2014-04-27 09:59:37 PM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: ronaprhys: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: I never said crime. I said violence. There is a huge difference.

Intentional violence is taking the same hypothetical farktard mentioned above, putting him in a situation that causes him to discharge the weapon voluntarily - like shooting an immediate threat.

Unintentional violence is the farktard leaving the gun loaded and easily available where a toddler finds it.

A proper vetting process with safety training, target proficiency, proof of insurance, and preferably a mental health evaluation helps minimize that aspect of the problem.

So, you attempt to limit your failed argument to something that's also failed? Prove that relaxing firearm laws actually leads to an increase in firearm violence.  Do so with actual facts and statistics.  Show a clear trend, not cherry picked anecdotes or logic that's been disproven by actual history.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_04.pdf

2010 numbers.

Strong disparity in death for young (under 44) men of African-American and Hispanic races versus white or female rates. Crime problem - can be attacked by changing stance on drugs and better anti poverty measures.

Noticeable spike in injuries and death per capita of firearm discharge in areas with large urban centers (DC) and in extremely remote areas (Wyoming, Alaska, New Mexico) leading to the conclusion that gun deaths happen more frequently where large percentages of the population have access to firearms (legal and illegal).


Dammit, son.  Learn2Read.

We're talking about places where firearm laws are relaxed.  DC doesn't really qualify as that's drug-related or gang-related crime.  Those other places have their own issues.  Specifically called out was a change in the rate of firearm-related problems when the laws were relaxed.

Pay attention, eh,  hoser.
 
2014-04-27 10:00:42 PM  

theprinceofwands: Freedom to not be forced to purchase insurance or pay a fine.
Freedom to speak and/or assemble peacefully (without undue burden at least).
Freedom from unwarranted search & seizure.
Freedom from unjust detention without speedy trial.


That's a tax. Supreme Court says so. And I think we still have the 1st and 4th Amendments, as well as habeas corpus.

So ... yeah, no.
 
2014-04-27 10:01:17 PM  

Jim_Callahan: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

It depends on the state, there are a couple states that'll basically just hand 'em to you.

However, GA's CCP has reciprocity with TX (in both directions, I think), so I can guarantee you that they require the 8-hour legal course + conflict resolution training (literally police refresher training in most cases) and the range-based proficiency demonstration at minimum.

Also, it's most likely still illegal to carry while  intoxicated, I don't think there's a state in the union where that's not a felony, frequently one harsh enough to carry jail time.


theprinceofwands: Well for me it's a big pain in the butt to have to disarm every time I walk into someplace 21 and over. It can create panic when people see me pulling the gun out in the parking lot. It opens me to having it stolen if my vehicle is broken into. It creates an opportunity for an accident (like an accidental discharge).

Look, I have some degree of sympathy with your annoyance, but you really have to understand that that's all that it is... annoyance.  Handle the gun properly, in this case by removing it from the holster before exiting the vehicle and stowing it somewhere that it isn't visible, and don't ever draw it with your dumbass finger on the farking trigger in any situation you're not actually trying to shoot something, and literally none of that is any kind of real hazard at all.

I've disarmed hundreds of times outside no-CC areas (I work in one) and never once have I even come close to being careless enough that any of those things were a possibility.  If there's any non-negligible chance of accidental discharge when you disarm, especially, you're bad enough at handling the weapon that you're a danger to yourself and others just from having it and should probably stop carrying altogether.

That is not hyperbole or a joke: if there is some potential for a negligent discharge to occur in the ...


It's more than an annoyance when I get slammed onto a patrol car because some ignorant biatch calls the police when they see me legally stowing my weapon (yes, it's happened, though fortunately not to me). Even if the responding officers handle it correctly, it's time and stress I shouldn't have to endure.

No matter how careful you are, there's ALWAYS the potential for an accident. Therefore you should do everything possible to reduce the frequency of exposure (ie don't handle it more than twice - once to put it on, once to take it off).
 
2014-04-27 10:01:50 PM  

KidneyStone: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

When I got mine in Forstyh County, Georgia, it was $70, some paperwork, then a trip around the corner to get fingerprinted.  It came in the mail 9 days later.  I woulnd't be unhappy with a requirement for a class but I'm glad i didn't have to pay for all that.  I already knew how to shoot (pretty well if i do say so myself) and I'd just as soon have it never leave the holster except for range time and monthly cleanin.


Yeah.  What's up with that?  It used to be $16.  I almost didn't renew.  Forsyth.
 
2014-04-27 10:02:09 PM  
theprinceofwands: You want me to sit forward, reach under my coat/shirt, free my sidearm, open the glove compartment (or in my case my gun safe), and safely stow my weapon WHILE driving??? I think the police and the NHTSA might have something to say about that. Never mind the fact that one should NEVER disarm until absolutely required by law as it creates a 'helpless zone' where you are open to harm.

You feel "helpless" in your own car unless you're armed? You're a real manly man, ain't ya?

I guess being surrounded by 2 tons of steel that can outrun anyone wishing harm on you in less than four seconds just isn't security enough.
 
2014-04-27 10:02:20 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.


In my state it's $10 to the police, and a 10 day waitin period.
 
2014-04-27 10:03:15 PM  

stoli n coke: theprinceofwands: You want me to sit forward, reach under my coat/shirt, free my sidearm, open the glove compartment (or in my case my gun safe), and safely stow my weapon WHILE driving??? I think the police and the NHTSA might have something to say about that. Never mind the fact that one should NEVER disarm until absolutely required by law as it creates a 'helpless zone' where you are open to harm.

You feel "helpless" in your own car unless you're armed? You're a real manly man, ain't ya?

I guess being surrounded by 2 tons of steel that can outrun anyone wishing harm on you in less than four seconds just isn't security enough.


So, in lieu of an actual argument, you resort to nonsense?

A winnar is you.
 
2014-04-27 10:03:43 PM  
Drunk people + guns= Darwin is going to be very happy.
 
2014-04-27 10:05:28 PM  

Flappyhead: theprinceofwands: Flappyhead: theprinceofwands: bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.

No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

Suuuuure it would.  Turn down the hyperbole dial a little.

No hyperbole whatsoever. In fact, there are a number of militias that have included this in their 'bright line' statements.

Yes because those redneck yokels represent the entire country.  You know what would have happened in Nevada had government officers called the bluff of those nitwits?  A lot of pants shiatting and a stampede of 40somethings running as fast as they could in the opposite direction.


More likely it would have been government agents murdering people, like in so many other 'standoff' situations. Not that it was a clear violation situation...that one was tenuous at best.

A ban of firearms (even using an endaround like insurance requirements) would be obvious and immediate, making every government employee immoral/unlawful by default thereby resulting in an entirely different situation. Remember also that large numbers of government employees would refuse to participate in such actions against otherwise lawful citizens, reducing the likelihood of encounter.
 
2014-04-27 10:05:55 PM  

stoli n coke: theprinceofwands: You want me to sit forward, reach under my coat/shirt, free my sidearm, open the glove compartment (or in my case my gun safe), and safely stow my weapon WHILE driving??? I think the police and the NHTSA might have something to say about that. Never mind the fact that one should NEVER disarm until absolutely required by law as it creates a 'helpless zone' where you are open to harm.

You feel "helpless" in your own car unless you're armed? You're a real manly man, ain't ya?

I guess being surrounded by 2 tons of steel that can outrun anyone wishing harm on you in less than four seconds just isn't security enough.


Was it for that kid that got shot for playing loud music?

Come on, man. Not every discussion has to turn to "manliness" or some otherwise unquantifiable machismo. And that goes for everybody. There are enough facts to have a discussion without stupid rhetoric.
 
2014-04-27 10:06:15 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Jim_Callahan: Also, it's most likely still illegal to carry while intoxicated, I don't think there's a state in the union where that's not a felony, frequently one harsh enough to carry jail time.

It's not a felony in Pennsylvania. You can get as drunk as you want to. If it's not forbidden in the Uniform Firearms Code it's not forbidden anywhere thanks to preemption.


There are MANY states where you can carry while intoxicated. Washington is one.
 
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