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(Rome News-Tribune)   If you had three days after Georgia's "guns in bars" bill was signed for the first fatal shooting in a bar, come on up and collect your prize   (northwestgeorgianews.com) divider line 355
    More: Obvious, Floyd County, guns  
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11990 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Apr 2014 at 8:12 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



355 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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Archived thread
 
2014-04-27 06:20:35 PM  
Has the law even gone into effect yet?
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-04-27 06:21:51 PM  
The law goes into effect July 1, according to CNN.
 
2014-04-27 06:39:55 PM  
For the record, you have always been able to carry a gun into a bar in Pennsylvania. No blood in the streets.

I think people make a big deal about this because as a rule alcohol and guns do not mix. On the face of it that would be a reasonable conclusion. However, the only people allowed to carry guns in Pennsylvania have permits, and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns. I suspect that's the trend everywhere.

In the end it all cancels out.
 
2014-04-27 06:55:20 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns


Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.
 
2014-04-27 06:57:01 PM  
So the moral of the story is always be home by ten?
 
2014-04-27 07:08:12 PM  

Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.


Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.
 
2014-04-27 07:10:46 PM  
Violence is the price we pay for our freedom ...
 
2014-04-27 07:16:42 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.


Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.
 
2014-04-27 07:20:47 PM  

Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.


I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.
 
2014-04-27 07:23:35 PM  

ZAZ: The law goes into effect July 1, according to CNN.


Facts are not important when evaluating public safety policy.

/Whether the shooter had a valid concealed weapons permit is also irrelevant.
 
2014-04-27 07:30:53 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.


Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.
 
2014-04-27 07:34:00 PM  

Dimensio: ZAZ: The law goes into effect July 1, according to CNN.

Facts are not important when evaluating public safety policy.

/Whether the shooter had a valid concealed weapons permit is also irrelevant.


How does anyone in the bar know whether the guy is carrying legally or illegally? Until someone gets shot that is. Before if you saw a guy with a gun you call the cops, now you can't, because that would be harassment of a possibly law abiding citizen.

My solution is they have to wear their permits like badges.
 
2014-04-27 07:39:50 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.


It depends on the state.  Some states have unrestricted carry (no permit or application required).  The Shall-Issue states have some sort of licensing requirement.  It can be as simple as filling out a form, up to a minimum number of hours of a certified gun safety course.  There was a stink where some people were getting reciprocity CCW permits in one state, where it was something like you only had to watch an online safety video (which could be fast-forwarded) and that was it.

May-Issue states you have to demonstrate to your local local enforcement agency why you need a permit (hazardous job, crazy stalker ex, etc.)
 
2014-04-27 07:47:41 PM  

EvilEgg: My solution is they have to wear their permits like badges.


Kind of defeats the purpose of concealed carry, doesn't it?

/didn't think that one all the way through, did you?
 
2014-04-27 07:50:50 PM  

EvilEgg: Dimensio: ZAZ: The law goes into effect July 1, according to CNN.

Facts are not important when evaluating public safety policy.

/Whether the shooter had a valid concealed weapons permit is also irrelevant.

How does anyone in the bar know whether the guy is carrying legally or illegally? Until someone gets shot that is. Before if you saw a guy with a gun you call the cops, now you can't, because that would be harassment of a possibly law abiding citizen.


As the law does not take effect until July 1, 2014, any non law-enforcement individual who carries a firearm into a bar is carrying illegally.

After July 1, 2014, management of such establishments may choose to enact a prohibition on carrying firearms on the premises, to eliminate any ambiguity.

My solution is they have to wear their permits like badges.

Your proposal is unreasonable.
 
2014-04-27 08:14:45 PM  
Did the dude who got shot have it coming?  A lot of people in the world are figuratively begging to be shot, don't you think?
 
2014-04-27 08:16:11 PM  
Everyone sure loves their murder tools. Gotta have one with me at every moment, just in case there's a murder to be done.
 
2014-04-27 08:16:31 PM  
Oh, this is gonna be GOOOOOOD.
 
2014-04-27 08:16:38 PM  

EvilEgg: Dimensio: ZAZ: The law goes into effect July 1, according to CNN.

Facts are not important when evaluating public safety policy.

/Whether the shooter had a valid concealed weapons permit is also irrelevant.

How does anyone in the bar know whether the guy is carrying legally or illegally? Until someone gets shot that is. Before if you saw a guy with a gun you call the cops, now you can't, because that would be harassment of a possibly law abiding citizen.

My solution is they have to wear their permits like badges.


Why would you call the cops if you saw someone peacefully going about their business with a holstered gun?
 
2014-04-27 08:16:40 PM  

Pokey.Clyde: EvilEgg: My solution is they have to wear their permits like badges.

Kind of defeats the purpose of concealed carry, doesn't it?

/didn't think that one all the way through, did you?


Defeat the pupose of CCW? Kinda the point.

So who didn't think that through, now?
 
2014-04-27 08:16:50 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.


The number of repeat offenders pretty much disproves that.
 
2014-04-27 08:18:34 PM  
Oh yay. This sh*t again.

SPOONS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE.

WHAAAAAARGARBL MY RIGHTS SECOND AMENDMENT WAJALFJLEFJJF
 
2014-04-27 08:18:42 PM  
fusillade762 [TotalFark]

Has the law even gone into effect yet?

Subby is a typical ignorant. you can already legally carry in a bar in GA. Has been legal to do so for years.

The headline should be "Years after GA allows guns in bars, 1 person out of the hundreds libtards predicted got shot."

Same bullshiat as claiming 1 record high temp "proves" global warming.
 
2014-04-27 08:19:41 PM  

HawgWild: Violence is the price we pay for our freedom ...


They died FREE of jack-booted oppressive gun laws.

Are you a communist?
 
2014-04-27 08:20:08 PM  
Mugato [TotalFark]

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Why is it not at all surprising that the guy that supports the government restricting the First also hates the Second.

// Also not surprised you lie about the facts. A carry permit has nothing to do with gun-shows.
 
2014-04-27 08:20:23 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: For the record, you have always been able to carry a gun into a bar in Pennsylvania. No blood in the streets.

I think people make a big deal about this because as a rule alcohol and guns do not mix. On the face of it that would be a reasonable conclusion. However, the only people allowed to carry guns in Pennsylvania have permits, and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns. I suspect that's the trend everywhere.

In the end it all cancels out.


Plus most of the bans covered restaraunts in general. Not just bars. Plus its still illegal to carry while drinking in most places.
 
2014-04-27 08:21:18 PM  

bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.


For what purpose?
 
2014-04-27 08:21:33 PM  

"The Chevy Club was formerly known as the Cadillac Club. "


Just by those names I can tell that is one classy bar. Is it located near the Pinto Packy?

 
2014-04-27 08:22:38 PM  

Pokey.Clyde: EvilEgg: My solution is they have to wear their permits like badges.

Kind of defeats the purpose of concealed carry, doesn't it?

/didn't think that one all the way through, did you?


Also probably wouldn't be too hard to fake one well enough for most people.
 
2014-04-27 08:22:58 PM  
The Chevy Club was formerly known as the Cadillac Club.

*snert*
 
2014-04-27 08:23:00 PM  

DubtodaIll: EvilEgg: Dimensio: ZAZ: The law goes into effect July 1, according to CNN.

Facts are not important when evaluating public safety policy.

/Whether the shooter had a valid concealed weapons permit is also irrelevant.

How does anyone in the bar know whether the guy is carrying legally or illegally? Until someone gets shot that is. Before if you saw a guy with a gun you call the cops, now you can't, because that would be harassment of a possibly law abiding citizen.

My solution is they have to wear their permits like badges.

Why would you call the cops if you saw someone peacefully going about their business with a holstered gun?


Because he is an idiot.
 
2014-04-27 08:23:01 PM  
What a tragic turn of events, but really, who is psychic and could predict anything like this?

Still, what an unfortunate coincidence. Probably not enough people know about the law yet, or there would have been other responsible gun owners carrying there to shoot him to prevent any violence.
 
2014-04-27 08:23:09 PM  
EvilEgg [TotalFark]

How does anyone in the bar know whether the guy is carrying legally or illegally? Until someone gets shot that is. Before if you saw a guy with a gun you call the cops, now you can't, because that would be harassment of a possibly law abiding citizen.

My solution is they have to wear their permits like badges.

How does anyone know the laptop a guy is carrying is legally owned by him our not? We should call the cops on anyone with a laptop even if that would be harrasing a "possibly" law abiding citizen.

My solution is they have to pin all their receipts to their jacket.
 
2014-04-27 08:23:31 PM  
Chicago.

That is all.
 
2014-04-27 08:23:34 PM  
.... aaaaand, they're off !!
 
2014-04-27 08:23:57 PM  

OnlyM3: EvilEgg [TotalFark]

How does anyone in the bar know whether the guy is carrying legally or illegally? Until someone gets shot that is. Before if you saw a guy with a gun you call the cops, now you can't, because that would be harassment of a possibly law abiding citizen.

My solution is they have to wear their permits like badges.
How does anyone know the laptop a guy is carrying is legally owned by him our not? We should call the cops on anyone with a laptop even if that would be harrasing a "possibly" law abiding citizen.

My solution is they have to pin all their receipts to their jacket.


A laptop is hardly a deadly weapon that is frequently used in crime...
 
2014-04-27 08:25:17 PM  

mschwenk: bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.

For what purpose?


I was advised that I will be sued and to be prepared.
 
2014-04-27 08:26:06 PM  
This is the first time someone has ever been shot in a 'bar'.
 
2014-04-27 08:27:24 PM  
www.mindhuestudio.com
 
2014-04-27 08:27:27 PM  

OnlyM3: EvilEgg [TotalFark]

How does anyone in the bar know whether the guy is carrying legally or illegally? Until someone gets shot that is. Before if you saw a guy with a gun you call the cops, now you can't, because that would be harassment of a possibly law abiding citizen.

My solution is they have to wear their permits like badges.
How does anyone know the laptop a guy is carrying is legally owned by him our not? We should call the cops on anyone with a laptop even if that would be harrasing a "possibly" law abiding citizen.

My solution is they have to pin all their receipts to their jacket.


You should have gone with cars.  Cars kill more people and that's important in these arguments.
 
2014-04-27 08:27:40 PM  
Even if the law had gone into effect already and the guy had a carry permit, it's all moot unless there wasn't a single fatal shooting in a bar prior to the law's enactment.
 
2014-04-27 08:27:59 PM  

LaurenAguilera: OnlyM3: EvilEgg [TotalFark]

How does anyone in the bar know whether the guy is carrying legally or illegally? Until someone gets shot that is. Before if you saw a guy with a gun you call the cops, now you can't, because that would be harassment of a possibly law abiding citizen.

My solution is they have to wear their permits like badges.
How does anyone know the laptop a guy is carrying is legally owned by him our not? We should call the cops on anyone with a laptop even if that would be harrasing a "possibly" law abiding citizen.

My solution is they have to pin all their receipts to their jacket.

A laptop is hardly a deadly weapon that is frequently used in crime...


You'd be surprised at what is used as a deadly weapon to commit a crime.
 
2014-04-27 08:29:34 PM  

mschwenk: LaurenAguilera: OnlyM3: EvilEgg [TotalFark]

How does anyone in the bar know whether the guy is carrying legally or illegally? Until someone gets shot that is. Before if you saw a guy with a gun you call the cops, now you can't, because that would be harassment of a possibly law abiding citizen.

My solution is they have to wear their permits like badges.
How does anyone know the laptop a guy is carrying is legally owned by him our not? We should call the cops on anyone with a laptop even if that would be harrasing a "possibly" law abiding citizen.

My solution is they have to pin all their receipts to their jacket.

A laptop is hardly a deadly weapon that is frequently used in crime...

You'd be surprised at what is used as a deadly weapon to commit a crime.


The important word was "frequently," buddy
 
2014-04-27 08:29:42 PM  

baorao: The Chevy Club was formerly known as the Cadillac Club.

*snert*


25.media.tumblr.com

"Hi! I'm Chevy Club and you're not."
 
2014-04-27 08:30:22 PM  

phalamir: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who willinglygives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

The number of repeat offenders pretty much disproves that.


Let me fix that for OP. The states that release statistics on CCW arrests (TX, NC, MI, FL) off the top of my head show an arrest rate a small fraction of that for the general population. DUI was the most common arrest. Violent crime is pretty much negligible.
 
2014-04-27 08:30:57 PM  

soseussme: What a tragic turn of events, but really, who is psychic and could predict anything like this?

Still, what an unfortunate coincidence. Probably not enough people know about the law yet, or there would have been other responsible gun owners carrying there to shoot him to prevent any violence.


As has already been stated: the change in law is not effective until July 1, 2014.
 
2014-04-27 08:31:37 PM  

LaurenAguilera: mschwenk: LaurenAguilera: OnlyM3: EvilEgg [TotalFark]

How does anyone in the bar know whether the guy is carrying legally or illegally? Until someone gets shot that is. Before if you saw a guy with a gun you call the cops, now you can't, because that would be harassment of a possibly law abiding citizen.

My solution is they have to wear their permits like badges.
How does anyone know the laptop a guy is carrying is legally owned by him our not? We should call the cops on anyone with a laptop even if that would be harrasing a "possibly" law abiding citizen.

My solution is they have to pin all their receipts to their jacket.

A laptop is hardly a deadly weapon that is frequently used in crime...

You'd be surprised at what is used as a deadly weapon to commit a crime.

The important word was "frequently," buddy


And you would still be surprised.
 
2014-04-27 08:32:26 PM  
This is a picture of the club.

bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com

People don't always obey signs or laws.
 
2014-04-27 08:32:37 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.


Not a hell of a lot more.  I would like to see what the failure rate is for people that take the course to get the CHL.  If it is under 10% then they are just wasting everybody's time and they cancel the requirement.
 
2014-04-27 08:32:48 PM  

ZAZ: The law goes into effect July 1, according to CNN.


Liberals never let facts get in the way of their fascism.

If the law had been in effect, a good guy could have stopped him.
 
2014-04-27 08:33:23 PM  

redmid17: phalamir: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who willinglygives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

The number of repeat offenders pretty much disproves that.

Let me fix that for OP. The states that release statistics on CCW arrests (TX, NC, MI, FL) off the top of my head show an arrest rate a small fraction of that for the general population. DUI was the most common arrest. Violent crime is pretty much negligible.


I have been infromed by the Violence Policy Center that actual crime data regarding concealed weapons permit holders cannot be reasonably assessed because the National Rifle Association has worked to block states from releasing lists of the names and addresses of concealed weapons permit holders to anyone who asks.

However, the organization estimate that concealed weapons permit holders is much higher than claimed.
 
2014-04-27 08:33:52 PM  
and they should cancel the requirement.

FTFM
 
2014-04-27 08:33:58 PM  

Pokey.Clyde: EvilEgg: My solution is they have to wear their permits like badges.

Kind of defeats the purpose of concealed carry, doesn't it?

/didn't think that one all the way through, did you?


It's a way people who really don't like the idea of a particular right have to pretend that they're allowing it. Kind of like, "You have the right to free speech, so we've designated that fenced-in area way over there as the place for you to exercise it."
 
2014-04-27 08:34:23 PM  

thisisarepeat: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not a hell of a lot more.  I would like to see what the failure rate is for people that take the course to get the CHL.  If it is under 10% then they are just wasting everybody's time and they cancel the requirement.


What are the CCW application requirements in your state?
 
2014-04-27 08:35:25 PM  

Bullseyed: ZAZ: The law goes into effect July 1, according to CNN.

Liberals never let facts get in the way of their fascism.

If the law had been in effect, a good guy could have stopped him.


The only way to stop a bad drunk guy with a gun, is a good drunk guy with a gun.  Bystanders farked either way.
 
2014-04-27 08:36:02 PM  
And damnit what does counter clockwise have to do with gun right discussions??
 
2014-04-27 08:36:54 PM  

Bullseyed: ZAZ: The law goes into effect July 1, according to CNN.

Liberals never let facts get in the way of their fascism.

If the law had been in effect, a good guy could have stopped him.


You're dealing with hoplophobics.  They're irrational by their very nature.
 
2014-04-27 08:37:01 PM  

redmid17: thisisarepeat: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not a hell of a lot more.  I would like to see what the failure rate is for people that take the course to get the CHL.  If it is under 10% then they are just wasting everybody's time and they cancel the requirement.

What are the CCW application requirements in your state?


Dont be a felon.

oh and...no, thats all.
 
2014-04-27 08:37:31 PM  
I own guns and I like them but I'm not a fanatic. Like, I have no need for an assault weapon -- which isn't cheap to fire. I don't hunt so I don't require an over priced, precision cannon.

In my drinking days, I would bet bucks that at any given night, in any of the many bars I frequented, if you shook down the patrons, you'd find at least two guns. (I took one away from a drunk friend of mine, whisked it out of the bar, unloaded it and locked it in the car.)

Almost every Friday night, someone shot someone else in a bar. Especially in the many Country bars we had at the time. Even I was smart enough while drunk to not carry a gun into a bar. Booze tends to wipe out common sense and make folks quick to anger, which means that gun comes out a lot faster and they don't think of the consequences.

It's illegal in my state to carry a gun into a bar. It's illegal to carry a loaded gun on your person without a permit. Discharging a weapon in a residential area is illegal. You may carry a gun in your car, so long as it is like in the glove box and unloaded. It must take you three steps to get the gun and shoot it. You must also notify any police officer who stops you if you have a gun in the car.

Making it legal for folks to carry a weapon in a bar is just asking for a jump in the death toll. I've met a whole lot of folks in bars who I wouldn't trust with a rubber knife, let alone a loaded gun.
 
2014-04-27 08:37:36 PM  

thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not a hell of a lot more.  I would like to see what the failure rate is for people that take the course to get the CHL.  If it is under 10% then they are just wasting everybody's time and they cancel the requirement.

What are the CCW application requirements in your state?

Dont be a felon.

oh and...no, thats all.


Unless you live in an constitutional carry state, you're missing a few things there.
 
2014-04-27 08:39:21 PM  

redmid17: thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not a hell of a lot more.  I would like to see what the failure rate is for people that take the course to get the CHL.  If it is under 10% then they are just wasting everybody's time and they cancel the requirement.

What are the CCW application requirements in your state?

Dont be a felon.

oh and...no, thats all.

Unless you live in an constitutional carry state, you're missing a few things there.


Its a "shall issue" state.
 
2014-04-27 08:39:26 PM  

rzrwiresunrise: Defeat the pupose of CCW? Kinda the point.

So who didn't think that through, now?


You, apparently. There are plenty of reasons why concealed carry is much more widespread than open carry. One of those reasons is so that the panty-wetters like yourself don't run away screaming every time they see a gun. Concealed carry tends to alleviate that.

LaurenAguilera: A laptop is hardly a deadly weapon that is frequently used in crime...


Neither is something like, say, a Barrett .50 cal. But there are people out there that would do almost anything to make civilian ownership of one illegal.
 
2014-04-27 08:39:58 PM  

thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not a hell of a lot more.  I would like to see what the failure rate is for people that take the course to get the CHL.  If it is under 10% then they are just wasting everybody's time and they cancel the requirement.

What are the CCW application requirements in your state?

Dont be a felon.

oh and...no, thats all.

Unless you live in an constitutional carry state, you're missing a few things there.

Its a "shall issue" state.


Then you're missing still missing a few steps there.
 
2014-04-27 08:40:04 PM  

Dimensio: redmid17: phalamir: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who willinglygives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

The number of repeat offenders pretty much disproves that.

Let me fix that for OP. The states that release statistics on CCW arrests (TX, NC, MI, FL) off the top of my head show an arrest rate a small fraction of that for the general population. DUI was the most common arrest. Violent crime is pretty much negligible.

I have been infromed by the Violence Policy Center that actual crime data regarding concealed weapons permit holders cannot be reasonably assessed because the National Rifle Association has worked to block states from releasing lists of the names and addresses of concealed weapons permit holders to anyone who asks.

However, the organization estimate that concealed weapons permit holders is much higher than claimed.


A political organization estimates the data that doesn't agree with their policy goals actually does agree with their policy goals and blames a rival political organization?

Ya don't say?
 
2014-04-27 08:41:29 PM  
but it does have a reciprocity agreement with most of the other states.  Not Mayor Dailey's state or New York or California probably a few shiatty little north eastern states.
 
2014-04-27 08:42:08 PM  

redmid17: thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not a hell of a lot more.  I would like to see what the failure rate is for people that take the course to get the CHL.  If it is under 10% then they are just wasting everybody's time and they cancel the requirement.

What are the CCW application requirements in your state?

Dont be a felon.

oh and...no, thats all.

Unless you live in an constitutional carry state, you're missing a few things there.

Its a "shall issue" state.

Then you're missing still missing a few steps there.


I'll even amend that to say that even the states with open carry typically have more requirements if you want to get a permit (for carry in other states).
 
2014-04-27 08:43:22 PM  
Buy all the guns you want, just stop shooting people
 
2014-04-27 08:43:40 PM  

OnlyM3: EvilEgg [TotalFark]

How does anyone in the bar know whether the guy is carrying legally or illegally? Until someone gets shot that is. Before if you saw a guy with a gun you call the cops, now you can't, because that would be harassment of a possibly law abiding citizen.

My solution is they have to wear their permits like badges.
How does anyone know the laptop a guy is carrying is legally owned by him our not? We should call the cops on anyone with a laptop even if that would be harrasing a "possibly" law abiding citizen.

My solution is they have to pin all their receipts to their jacket.


Or better yet, sew special emblems onto them, so the receipts don't fall off.




i60.tinypic.com
 
2014-04-27 08:43:47 PM  

doglover: Dimensio: redmid17: phalamir: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who willinglygives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

The number of repeat offenders pretty much disproves that.

Let me fix that for OP. The states that release statistics on CCW arrests (TX, NC, MI, FL) off the top of my head show an arrest rate a small fraction of that for the general population. DUI was the most common arrest. Violent crime is pretty much negligible.

I have been infromed by the Violence Policy Center that actual crime data regarding concealed weapons permit holders cannot be reasonably assessed because the National Rifle Association has worked to block states from releasing lists of the names and addresses of concealed weapons permit holders to anyone who asks.

However, the organization estimate that concealed weapons permit holders is much higher than claimed.

A political organization estimates the data that doesn't agree with their policy goals actually does agree with their policy goals and blames a rival political organization?

Ya don't say?


I am certain that the maths employed by the Violence Policy Center to arrive at their estimates are just as credible and as fact-based as the maths employed by conservative organizations who question the reported number of healthcare exchange sign-ups.
 
2014-04-27 08:43:56 PM  

redmid17: thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not a hell of a lot more.  I would like to see what the failure rate is for people that take the course to get the CHL.  If it is under 10% then they are just wasting everybody's time and they cancel the requirement.

What are the CCW application requirements in your state?

Dont be a felon.

oh and...no, thats all.

Unless you live in an constitutional carry state, you're missing a few things there.

Its a "shall issue" state.

Then you're missing still missing a few steps there.


Sorry I misunderstood "application" for "sign up for course".  Its a two day "dont take your gun here, here or there and 20 min at the range.  If you qualify with a revolver you can only carry a revolver if you qualify with an semi-automatic you can carry either.
 
2014-04-27 08:44:04 PM  

rzrwiresunrise: Pokey.Clyde: EvilEgg: My solution is they have to wear their permits like badges.

Kind of defeats the purpose of concealed carry, doesn't it?

/didn't think that one all the way through, did you?

Defeat the pupose of CCW? Kinda the point.

So who didn't think that through, now?


The badge could say, "Please don't ask me about my concealed weapon.  It's totally a secret."
 
2014-04-27 08:44:42 PM  

ZAZ: The law goes into effect July 1, according to CNN.


Not that it matters, if the bar owners put up a sign that says "no guns allowed hee-ya" then it's illegal to carry one in, and possibly on, the property.

Say, a sign like this one that's in front of the bar in TFA:

bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com

"Foster was shot and killed earlier this morning during an incident that happened at 3:15 a.m "

Pretty sure bars close at 0200 per state law.
 
2014-04-27 08:45:10 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2014-04-27 08:45:48 PM  
Pokey.Clyde:

LaurenAguilera: A laptop is hardly a deadly weapon that is frequently used in crime...

Neither is something like, say, a Barrett .50 cal. But there are people out there that would do almost anything to make civilian ownership of one illegal.



True, but this discussion is not on gun rights in general, just on carrying guns into bars. Now I'll be worried about getting shot AND getting waking up next to a stranger the next morning.
 
2014-04-27 08:45:59 PM  

thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not a hell of a lot more.  I would like to see what the failure rate is for people that take the course to get the CHL.  If it is under 10% then they are just wasting everybody's time and they cancel the requirement.

What are the CCW application requirements in your state?

Dont be a felon.

oh and...no, thats all.

Unless you live in an constitutional carry state, you're missing a few things there.

Its a "shall issue" state.

Then you're missing still missing a few steps there.

Sorry I misunderstood "application" for "sign up for course".  Its a two day "dont take your gun here, here or there and 20 min at the range.  If you qualify with a revolver you can only carry a revolver if you qualify with an semi-automatic you can carry either.


You have to submit fingerprints along with undergoing a background check as well. That's what I was getting at.

Even if it isn't difficult, it's far more time consuming and more effort than favorited!ing down $50 at a gun show.
 
2014-04-27 08:46:28 PM  
Come on, who could have seen this coming?
 
2014-04-27 08:46:36 PM  

LaurenAguilera: Pokey.Clyde:

LaurenAguilera: A laptop is hardly a deadly weapon that is frequently used in crime...

Neither is something like, say, a Barrett .50 cal. But there are people out there that would do almost anything to make civilian ownership of one illegal.


True, but this discussion is not on gun rights in general, just on carrying guns into bars. Now I'll be worried about getting shot AND getting waking up next to a stranger the next morning.


My advice to you is to start drinking heavily.
 
2014-04-27 08:46:41 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.


When I got mine in Forstyh County, Georgia, it was $70, some paperwork, then a trip around the corner to get fingerprinted.  It came in the mail 9 days later.  I woulnd't be unhappy with a requirement for a class but I'm glad i didn't have to pay for all that.  I already knew how to shoot (pretty well if i do say so myself) and I'd just as soon have it never leave the holster except for range time and monthly cleanin.
 
2014-04-27 08:48:46 PM  

walktoanarcade: Come on, who could have seen this coming?


Are you asking who, exactly, would have predicted a shooting in a bar at a time when carrying a firearm into a bar was prohibited by state law?
 
2014-04-27 08:48:55 PM  
i have to ask, what do CCW holders hope to accomplish with a law like this?

Not even figuring in the intoxication factor, bars are often crowded, it's loud, it's dark, sometimes there's pushing and shoving. If they were suddenly faced with the "bad guy with a gun" scenario they get excited over, it seems they'd be more likely to shoot someone who had nothing to do with it. FFS, even Old West Saloons didn't want firearms inside.

It's the same reason guns in movie theaters is a horrible idea.
 
2014-04-27 08:49:40 PM  

Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.


We know, you hate guns and facts, fortunately for you, both will protect you.
 
2014-04-27 08:49:49 PM  

thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not a hell of a lot more.  I would like to see what the failure rate is for people that take the course to get the CHL.  If it is under 10% then they are just wasting everybody's time and they cancel the requirement.

What are the CCW application requirements in your state?

Dont be a felon.

oh and...no, thats all.


In Georgia?  There's a lot more.  Can't be convicted of any domestic violence case.  Can't be drug addict or have drug convictions.  Can't be subject to a Civil Restraining Order.  Prior mental health history may disqualify you also.
 
2014-04-27 08:50:47 PM  
It's OK that he's dead because he was going to drive home drunk from the bar the 6.5 miles to his home.
The gunman was just saving the busload of pregnant nuns and orphans on US 27

/amidoingitright
 
2014-04-27 08:50:48 PM  

GORDON: Did the dude who got shot have it coming?  A lot of people in the world are figuratively begging to be shot, don't you think?


No! The shooter got kicked out of the club and was pissed off about it, so he got a gun (probably from his car) and went back in and started shooting randomly. The victim who died - who had just moved down here from PA a couple of weeks ago - was an innocent bystander, shot in the back of the head, fell with his hands still in his jeans pockets..........

/victim was my daughter's girlfriend's cousin.....the family is devastated.......
 
2014-04-27 08:51:44 PM  

BravadoGT: thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not a hell of a lot more.  I would like to see what the failure rate is for people that take the course to get the CHL.  If it is under 10% then they are just wasting everybody's time and they cancel the requirement.

What are the CCW application requirements in your state?

Dont be a felon.

oh and...no, thats all.

In Georgia?  There's a lot more.  Can't be convicted of any domestic violence case.  Can't be drug addict or have drug convictions.  Can't be subject to a Civil Restraining Order.  Prior mental health history may disqualify you also.


Do you expect reasoned and educated individuals to believe that a person who is prohibited for one of those reasons could not simply obtain a permit without a background check through the concealed gun show loophole?
 
2014-04-27 08:52:35 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: For the record, you have always been able to carry a gun into a bar in Pennsylvania. No blood in the streets.

I think people make a big deal about this because as a rule alcohol and guns do not mix. On the face of it that would be a reasonable conclusion. However, the only people allowed to carry guns in Pennsylvania have permits, and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns. I suspect that's the trend everywhere.

In the end it all cancels out.


So I guess you missed this thread from two days ago:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/04/25/bride-30-killed-21-year-old-nie ce -during-wedding-party-police-say/?cmpid=sem_fkfn
 
2014-04-27 08:52:45 PM  
Dimensio: walktoanarcade: Come on, who could have seen this coming?

Are you asking who, exactly, would have predicted a shooting in a bar at a time when carrying a firearm into a bar was prohibited by state law?

I was making a joke about the illogical notion of bringing a bang bang into a bar bar. :|
 
2014-04-27 08:53:15 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: For the record, you have always been able to carry a gun into a bar in Pennsylvania. No blood in the streets.

I think people make a big deal about this because as a rule alcohol and guns do not mix. On the face of it that would be a reasonable conclusion. However, the only people allowed to carry guns in Pennsylvania have permits, and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns. I suspect that's the trend everywhere.

In the end it all cancels out.


Yup. There are dozens of states where carry in bars in legal (sometimes with permit, sometimes without), and in none is it a significant issue. Just like there are many states where it's legal to carry intoxicated, also without negative impacts beyond that of other states.

The bottom line is that firearms, or any types of weapons, have no causal relation to negative incidents, and never have. Unfortunately many seem unable to grasp this.
 
2014-04-27 08:53:26 PM  
New drinking game: someone gets shot ... do a shot.
 
2014-04-27 08:53:56 PM  

phalamir: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

The number of repeat offenders pretty much disproves that.


No, it doesn't. CCW holders give it to them voluntarily. Criminals get caught committing crimes. Apples and oranges.
 
2014-04-27 08:54:43 PM  

walktoanarcade: Dimensio: walktoanarcade: Come on, who could have seen this coming?

Are you asking who, exactly, would have predicted a shooting in a bar at a time when carrying a firearm into a bar was prohibited by state law?

I was making a joke about the illogical notion of bringing a bang bang into a bar bar. :|


As has been noted: carrying a firearm into a bar remains a crime in Georgia.
 
2014-04-27 08:55:20 PM  

HawgWild: Violence is the price we pay for our freedom ...

LaurenAguilera: Oh yay. This sh*t again.

SPOONS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE.

WHAAAAAARGARBL MY RIGHTS SECOND AMENDMENT WAJALFJLEFJJF


All we are asking for is the same enforcement they have with the 1st Amendment. Let us carry our weapons and if we use them incorrectly after the fact THEN hold us accountable.
 
2014-04-27 08:56:17 PM  

redmid17: thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not a hell of a lot more.  I would like to see what the failure rate is for people that take the course to get the CHL.  If it is under 10% then they are just wasting everybody's time and they cancel the requirement.

What are the CCW application requirements in your state?

Dont be a felon.

oh and...no, thats all.

Unless you live in an constitutional carry state, you're missing a few things there.

Its a "shall issue" state.

Then you're missing still missing a few steps there.

Sorry I misunderstood "application" for "sign up for course".  Its a two day "dont take your gun here, here or there and 20 min at the range.  If you qualify with a revolver you can only carry a revolver if you qualify with an semi-automatic you can carry either.

You have to submit fingerprints along with undergoing a background check as well. That's what I was getting at.

Even if it isn't difficult, it's far more time consuming and more effort than favorited!ing down $50 at a gun show.


Perhaps i'm a little jaded but the state has my dd214 on file, they issued me a license plate that has a purple heart on it and yet they want me to sit and listen to some farkwad ex cop lecture me on firearms safety and personal responsibility then require me to pay to be fingerprinted (when my fingerprints, palm prints, photo and DNA are already on file with the feds.
 
2014-04-27 08:56:29 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.


Not everywhere. In fact, In many states you don't even need to go through a permit process, and when you do it often requires nothing beyond forking over a few bucks and waiting on the basic background check. Some do require more, but not always.
 
2014-04-27 08:56:38 PM  

Dimensio: walktoanarcade: Dimensio: walktoanarcade: Come on, who could have seen this coming?

Are you asking who, exactly, would have predicted a shooting in a bar at a time when carrying a firearm into a bar was prohibited by state law?

I was making a joke about the illogical notion of bringing a bang bang into a bar bar. :|

As has been noted: carrying a firearm into a bar remains a crime in Georgia.


You must be a hit at parties.
 
2014-04-27 08:57:09 PM  
Georgia made it legal for men to fly to Mars without space ships.
Since that time, 6,000,000 people have left Earth and gone to space.
They all died and will vote for democrats in the next 27 elections.
 
2014-04-27 08:57:49 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.


Depends what state you're in.

Florida, they require a training class and fingerprints, background check, etc.

Alabama, I just applied, got approved and paid $40 for a CCW permit for 2 years.
 
2014-04-27 08:58:37 PM  

Pokey.Clyde: You, apparently. There are plenty of reasons why concealed carry is much more widespread than open carry. One of those reasons is so that the panty-wetters like yourself don't run away screaming every time they see a gun. Concealed carry tends to alleviate that.


I'm fine with the ability of people to carry weapons, provided they are properly licensed, trained, insured, and paid all appropriate taxes.

Can I still run away screaming, just for sh**s and giggles?
 
2014-04-27 08:58:53 PM  

EnderX: HawgWild: Violence is the price we pay for our freedom ...
LaurenAguilera: Oh yay. This sh*t again.

SPOONS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE.

WHAAAAAARGARBL MY RIGHTS SECOND AMENDMENT WAJALFJLEFJJF

All we are asking for is the same enforcement they have with the 1st Amendment. Let us carry our weapons and if we use them incorrectly after the fact THEN hold us accountable.


I suppose the problem with that is, if you've used it incorrectly to, say, harm someone else... that's a pretty sh*tty deal. I don't really care either way, I had enough of guns and things in the military. I don't like seeing horrible things in the news that could have been prevented with maybe a mental health check, or a background check.
 
2014-04-27 09:00:02 PM  

jehovahs witness protection: Georgia made it legal for men to fly to Mars without space ships.
Since that time, 6,000,000 people have left Earth and gone to space.
They all died and will vote for democrats in the next 27 elections.


This is actually kind of fun if you read it in 60's folk rock troubadour Donovan's voice
 
2014-04-27 09:00:06 PM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Adolf Oliver Nipples: For the record, you have always been able to carry a gun into a bar in Pennsylvania. No blood in the streets.

I think people make a big deal about this because as a rule alcohol and guns do not mix. On the face of it that would be a reasonable conclusion. However, the only people allowed to carry guns in Pennsylvania have permits, and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns. I suspect that's the trend everywhere.

In the end it all cancels out.

So I guess you missed this thread from two days ago:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/04/25/bride-30-killed-21-year-old-nie ce -during-wedding-party-police-say/?cmpid=sem_fkfn


If she didn't have a CCW permit it doesn't change my point even one iota.
 
2014-04-27 09:00:07 PM  

theprinceofwands: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not everywhere. In fact, In many states you don't even need to go through a permit process, and when you do it often requires nothing beyond forking over a few bucks and waiting on the basic background check. Some do require more, but not always.


We're talking about GA here.  Because it's a new thing.  Therefore, the media will concentrate on this because they're lazy shiatbags.

The simple fact is that when firearm restrictions are relaxed in the US, the streets never run red with blood. This stands in stark contrast to what idiots predict and clamor about.  Every Single Time it happens.  Relax the laws and people will die everywhere.

The fact that it never happens doesn't prevent idiots from spouting the same tired BS.
 
2014-04-27 09:01:40 PM  
Texas has a law making it a felony for anyone, even a CCP holder, to carry a gun into a bar.

It is one of the few laws in this State which make sense.
 
2014-04-27 09:01:46 PM  

EnderX: HawgWild: Violence is the price we pay for our freedom ...
LaurenAguilera: Oh yay. This sh*t again.

SPOONS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE.

WHAAAAAARGARBL MY RIGHTS SECOND AMENDMENT WAJALFJLEFJJF

All we are asking for is the same enforcement they have with the 1st Amendment. Let us carry our weapons and if we use them incorrectly after the fact THEN hold us accountable.


So... you want to be considered a militia but you don't want to be well-regulated you say?
 
2014-04-27 09:02:11 PM  

HawgWild: Violence is the price we pay for our freedom ...


Some, but not necessarily.

1. Our violence is WAY down, possibly even lower than comparable areas.
2. The vast majority (up to 75%, depending on study used) of our violence is criminal on criminal events.
3. The single greatest likely causal factor in violence is poverty - specifically without social safety net. This is the primary reason other developed nations (most of which are socialized) frequently have lower overall crime/violence rates.
4. Regardless of our level of violence, we really don't have nearly as much freedom as we like to pretend (and it continues to decline).
 
2014-04-27 09:02:51 PM  

KidneyStone: ZAZ: The law goes into effect July 1, according to CNN.

Not that it matters, if the bar owners put up a sign that says "no guns allowed hee-ya" then it's illegal to carry one in, and possibly on, the property.

Say, a sign like this one that's in front of the bar in TFA:



"Foster was shot and killed earlier this morning during an incident that happened at 3:15 a.m "

Pretty sure bars close at 0200 per state law.


Last call time is county to county in Georgia.
 
2014-04-27 09:02:54 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Adolf Oliver Nipples: For the record, you have always been able to carry a gun into a bar in Pennsylvania. No blood in the streets.

I think people make a big deal about this because as a rule alcohol and guns do not mix. On the face of it that would be a reasonable conclusion. However, the only people allowed to carry guns in Pennsylvania have permits, and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns. I suspect that's the trend everywhere.

In the end it all cancels out.

So I guess you missed this thread from two days ago:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/04/25/bride-30-killed-21-year-old-nie ce -during-wedding-party-police-say/?cmpid=sem_fkfn

If she didn't have a CCW permit it doesn't change my point even one iota.


Even if she did, it doesn't obviate the fact that CCW/CPL holders, as a group, don't commit firearm crimes to any statistically significant amount.  Anecdote isn't the plural of data.
 
2014-04-27 09:03:43 PM  

thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not a hell of a lot more.  I would like to see what the failure rate is for people that take the course to get the CHL.  If it is under 10% then they are just wasting everybody's time and they cancel the requirement.

What are the CCW application requirements in your state?

Dont be a felon.

oh and...no, thats all.

Unless you live in an constitutional carry state, you're missing a few things there.

Its a "shall issue" state.

Then you're missing still missing a few steps there.

Sorry I misunderstood "application" for "sign up for course".  Its a two day "dont take your gun here, here or there and 20 min at the range.  If you qualify with a revolver you can only carry a revolver if you qualify with an semi-automatic you can carry either.

You have to submit fingerprints along with undergoing a background check as well. That's what I was getting at.

Even if it isn't difficult, it's far more time consuming and more effort than favorited!ing down $50 at a gun show.

Perhaps i'm a little jaded but the state has my dd214 on file, they issued me a license plate that has a purple heart on it and yet they want me to sit and listen to some farkwad ex cop lecture me on firearms safety and personal responsibility then require me to pay to be fingerprinted (when my fingerprints, palm prints, photo and DNA are already on file with the feds.


That's a fair point. I could see an exception for honorably discharged soldiers being given a pass for a class as long as they pass the background check clean.
 
2014-04-27 09:03:47 PM  

bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.


No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.
 
2014-04-27 09:03:57 PM  

ronaprhys: Relax the laws and people will die everywhere.


No, relax the laws and it increases the probability (however small) that a farktard with more itchy trigger finger than sense will get a gun he or she would not otherwise have qualified for and use it to commit violence (intentional or unintentional violence)
 
2014-04-27 09:03:59 PM  

Dimensio: doglover: Dimensio: redmid17: phalamir: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who willinglygives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

The number of repeat offenders pretty much disproves that.

Let me fix that for OP. The states that release statistics on CCW arrests (TX, NC, MI, FL) off the top of my head show an arrest rate a small fraction of that for the general population. DUI was the most common arrest. Violent crime is pretty much negligible.

I have been infromed by the Violence Policy Center that actual crime data regarding concealed weapons permit holders cannot be reasonably assessed because the National Rifle Association has worked to block states from releasing lists of the names and addresses of concealed weapons permit holders to anyone who asks.

However, the organization estimate that concealed weapons permit holders is much higher than claimed.

A political organization estimates the data that doesn't agree with their policy goals actually does agree with their policy goals and blames a rival political organization?

Ya don't say?

I am certain that the maths employed by the Violence Policy Center to arrive at their estimates are just as credible and as fact-based as the maths employed by conservative organizations who question the reported number of healthcare exchange sign-ups.


As am I, to wit they're both full of shiat because research costs money, and political researchers tend to arrive at statistics that support their patrons' causes. Never has a group like MADD done a study where sober teenage girls with a cell phone are found to be more dangerous behind the wheel than drunk race car drivers.

But actuaries who have no skin in the political game have crunched the numbers objectively. And consequently insurance rates reflect actual risk more accurately than political "estimations"
 
2014-04-27 09:04:41 PM  

LaurenAguilera: EnderX: HawgWild: Violence is the price we pay for our freedom ...
LaurenAguilera: Oh yay. This sh*t again.

SPOONS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE.

WHAAAAAARGARBL MY RIGHTS SECOND AMENDMENT WAJALFJLEFJJF

All we are asking for is the same enforcement they have with the 1st Amendment. Let us carry our weapons and if we use them incorrectly after the fact THEN hold us accountable.

I suppose the problem with that is, if you've used it incorrectly to, say, harm someone else... that's a pretty sh*tty deal. I don't really care either way, I had enough of guns and things in the military. I don't like seeing horrible things in the news that could have been prevented with maybe a mental health check, or a background check.


Had your fill did you, Lauren?
 
2014-04-27 09:05:58 PM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: ronaprhys: Relax the laws and people will die everywhere.

No, relax the laws and it increases the probability (however small) that a farktard with more itchy trigger finger than sense will get a gun he or she would not otherwise have qualified for and use it to commit violence (intentional or unintentional violence)


Except that it doesn't happen to any statistically significant amount.  Ever.

Simple fact is that you're wrong.  Completely and utterly.  In fact, firearm crimes tend to decline or, at worst, stay constant.
 
2014-04-27 09:06:49 PM  

theorellior: [www.mindhuestudio.com image 600x337]


Hey, that kinda sounds like...  Oh, nevermind.  I like the graphic though.
 
2014-04-27 09:07:40 PM  

theprinceofwands: bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.

No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.


You mean like obamacare?
Yes...his BS is unconstitutional too.
 
2014-04-27 09:08:25 PM  

redmid17: phalamir: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who willinglygives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

The number of repeat offenders pretty much disproves that.

Let me fix that for OP. The states that release statistics on CCW arrests (TX, NC, MI, FL) off the top of my head show an arrest rate a small fraction of that for the general population. DUI was the most common arrest. Violent crime is pretty much negligible.


In fact several studies have showed that the rates of incident with permit holders is lower even than the rates for law enforcement personnel. Meaning there is no statistical support for restrictions on permit obtaining citizens that aren't first applied to the police.
 
2014-04-27 09:08:35 PM  

thisisarepeat: LaurenAguilera: EnderX: HawgWild: Violence is the price we pay for our freedom ...
LaurenAguilera: Oh yay. This sh*t again.

SPOONS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE.

WHAAAAAARGARBL MY RIGHTS SECOND AMENDMENT WAJALFJLEFJJF

All we are asking for is the same enforcement they have with the 1st Amendment. Let us carry our weapons and if we use them incorrectly after the fact THEN hold us accountable.

I suppose the problem with that is, if you've used it incorrectly to, say, harm someone else... that's a pretty sh*tty deal. I don't really care either way, I had enough of guns and things in the military. I don't like seeing horrible things in the news that could have been prevented with maybe a mental health check, or a background check.

Had your fill did you, Lauren?


Sure did, yo. Sure did. I still like the smell of gun oil, but no thanks for the actual guns. Didn't you get enough of them?
 
2014-04-27 09:12:06 PM  

ronaprhys: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: ronaprhys: Relax the laws and people will die everywhere.

No, relax the laws and it increases the probability (however small) that a farktard with more itchy trigger finger than sense will get a gun he or she would not otherwise have qualified for and use it to commit violence (intentional or unintentional violence)

Except that it doesn't happen to any statistically significant amount.  Ever.

Simple fact is that you're wrong.  Completely and utterly.  In fact, firearm crimes tend to decline or, at worst, stay constant.


I never said crime. I said violence. There is a huge difference.

Intentional violence is taking the same hypothetical farktard mentioned above, putting him in a situation that causes him to discharge the weapon voluntarily - like shooting an immediate threat.

Unintentional violence is the farktard leaving the gun loaded and easily available where a toddler finds it.

A proper vetting process with safety training, target proficiency, proof of insurance, and preferably a mental health evaluation helps minimize that aspect of the problem.
 
2014-04-27 09:12:25 PM  
It was Georgia. To be fair, he did look at him crossways.

i1.ytimg.com
 
2014-04-27 09:12:37 PM  

redmid17: thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not a hell of a lot more.  I would like to see what the failure rate is for people that take the course to get the CHL.  If it is under 10% then they are just wasting everybody's time and they cancel the requirement.

What are the CCW application requirements in your state?

Dont be a felon.

oh and...no, thats all.

Unless you live in an constitutional carry state, you're missing a few things there.

Its a "shall issue" state.

Then you're missing still missing a few steps there.

Sorry I misunderstood "application" for "sign up for course".  Its a two day "dont take your gun here, here or there and 20 min at the range.  If you qualify with a revolver you can only carry a revolver if you qualify with an semi-automatic you can carry either.

You have to submit fingerprints along with undergoing a background check as well. That's what I was getting at.

Even if it isn't difficult, it's far more time consuming and more effort than favorited!ing down $50 at a gun show.

Perhaps i'm a little jaded but the state has my dd214 on file, they issued me a license plate that has a purple heart on it and yet they want me to sit and listen to some farkwad ex cop lecture me on firearms safety and personal responsibility then require me to pay to be fingerprinted (when my fingerprints, palm prints, photo and DNA are already on file with the feds.

That's a fair point. I could see an exception for honorably discharged soldiers being given a pass for a class as long as they pass the background check clean.


Well i wouldn't say it was necessarily clean... but they are all misdemeanors and none of them are violent,  this likes the devil weed.  Ahhem! I mean I have been in possession of medical grade marijuana I use to treat my PTSD in a state that would rather I just be labenzomized or suffer rather than smoking some pot.
 
2014-04-27 09:12:38 PM  
As this happened at "  3:15 a.m. at the Chevy Club, 3365 Cave Spring Road, officials stated earlier. The Chevy Club was formerly known as the Cadillac Club."  and that no reason for the shooting, or who did what in that bar it's a little early to make assumptions.
It's quite possible the dead guy was the aggressor,and one of the others in the bar put him down.

Should wait for more info before making a fool of yourself over this incident...

 
2014-04-27 09:13:05 PM  

theprinceofwands: bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.

No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.


Suuuuure it would.  Turn down the hyperbole dial a little.
 
2014-04-27 09:13:58 PM  
Finally had some time to read this article.  So, if what I can read is correct, this shooting had absolutely nothing to do with the enacting of new legislation or CCW permits.  Yet, somehow, subby thinks their related and idiot mods decided to greenlight in an obvious attempt to gain clicks and revenue.

Sweet.
 
2014-04-27 09:15:23 PM  

Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.


Dang.  What gun shows are you going to?  That'd be awesome to pick up hardware for that cheap.
 
2014-04-27 09:16:32 PM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: I never said crime. I said violence. There is a huge difference.

Intentional violence is taking the same hypothetical farktard mentioned above, putting him in a situation that causes him to discharge the weapon voluntarily - like shooting an immediate threat.

Unintentional violence is the farktard leaving the gun loaded and easily available where a toddler finds it.

A proper vetting process with safety training, target proficiency, proof of insurance, and preferably a mental health evaluation helps minimize that aspect of the problem.


So, you attempt to limit your failed argument to something that's also failed? Prove that relaxing firearm laws actually leads to an increase in firearm violence.  Do so with actual facts and statistics.  Show a clear trend, not cherry picked anecdotes or logic that's been disproven by actual history.
 
2014-04-27 09:16:51 PM  

theorellior: [www.mindhuestudio.com image 600x337]


Everytown for Rampant BS supports this message.
 
2014-04-27 09:16:52 PM  

LaurenAguilera: thisisarepeat: LaurenAguilera: EnderX: HawgWild: Violence is the price we pay for our freedom ...
LaurenAguilera: Oh yay. This sh*t again.

SPOONS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE.

WHAAAAAARGARBL MY RIGHTS SECOND AMENDMENT WAJALFJLEFJJF

All we are asking for is the same enforcement they have with the 1st Amendment. Let us carry our weapons and if we use them incorrectly after the fact THEN hold us accountable.

I suppose the problem with that is, if you've used it incorrectly to, say, harm someone else... that's a pretty sh*tty deal. I don't really care either way, I had enough of guns and things in the military. I don't like seeing horrible things in the news that could have been prevented with maybe a mental health check, or a background check.

Had your fill did you, Lauren?

Sure did, yo. Sure did. I still like the smell of gun oil, but no thanks for the actual guns. Didn't you get enough of them?


Different world, I can leave my firearms in the safe when I take a shiat.
 
2014-04-27 09:17:30 PM  

redmid17: thisisarepeat: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not a hell of a lot more.  I would like to see what the failure rate is for people that take the course to get the CHL.  If it is under 10% then they are just wasting everybody's time and they cancel the requirement.

What are the CCW application requirements in your state?


I realize you aren't asking me, but as an example:

WA state

be 21+ years of age
be a us citizen, or have an AFC
provide picture id and submit to fingerprinting (2 sets)
pay $52.50
not have lost the right to firearms by being a felon, or under court ordered surrender of firearms
not have an outstanding arrest warrant, be out on bond/bail for a felony charge, or have certain types of restraining orders in effect against you
(the last two items are determined by a basic criminal background check)
 
2014-04-27 09:18:35 PM  
But yes, I was VERY relieved when I handed over that M4 for the last time.   I would like to have it back though.  For what the Army paid for it that is, not what they cost now.
 
2014-04-27 09:18:37 PM  

theprinceofwands: 4. Regardless of our level of violence, we really don't have nearly as much freedom as we like to pretend (and it continues to decline).


Name a freedom you don't have anymore.
 
2014-04-27 09:19:42 PM  
I like the writer's last name.  That's awesome.
 
2014-04-27 09:20:29 PM  
thisisarepeat:

Different world, I can leave my firearms in the safe when I take a shiat.

Haha, true. Very true.
 
2014-04-27 09:20:45 PM  

HawgWild: theprinceofwands: 4. Regardless of our level of violence, we really don't have nearly as much freedom as we like to pretend (and it continues to decline).

Name a freedom you don't have anymore.


Freedom from unreasonable surveillance.  Surveillance without a warrant.  Driving with a beer in hand (I'm over 40. It was legal when I was a kid).
 
2014-04-27 09:20:57 PM  

thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not a hell of a lot more.  I would like to see what the failure rate is for people that take the course to get the CHL.  If it is under 10% then they are just wasting everybody's time and they cancel the requirement.

What are the CCW application requirements in your state?

Dont be a felon.

oh and...no, thats all.


PA, not philadelphia?
 
2014-04-27 09:23:13 PM  

stoli n coke: i have to ask, what do CCW holders hope to accomplish with a law like this?

Not even figuring in the intoxication factor, bars are often crowded, it's loud, it's dark, sometimes there's pushing and shoving. If they were suddenly faced with the "bad guy with a gun" scenario they get excited over, it seems they'd be more likely to shoot someone who had nothing to do with it. FFS, even Old West Saloons didn't want firearms inside.

It's the same reason guns in movie theaters is a horrible idea.


Well for me it's a big pain in the butt to have to disarm every time I walk into someplace 21 and over. It can create panic when people see me pulling the gun out in the parking lot. It opens me to having it stolen if my vehicle is broken into. It creates an opportunity for an accident (like an accidental discharge).

Further, none of what you say has any factual, statistical backing. There are almost no accidental shootings from permit holders. A few, certainly, but its very VERY rare. It's simply not a reasonable issue. What's more, there have almost never been any significant events from lawful carry of any kind, only the rare random accident. Nearly all crime is, and always has been, from criminals intent on committing the crimes.
 
2014-04-27 09:23:14 PM  

ronaprhys: Finally had some time to read this article



This is fark... why would you do that?
 
2014-04-27 09:23:20 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: For the record, you have always been able to carry a gun into a bar in Pennsylvania. No blood in the streets.


So what exactly are you implying about Georgians?
 
2014-04-27 09:23:37 PM  

The Iron duke: As this happened at "  3:15 a.m. at the Chevy Club, 3365 Cave Spring Road, officials stated earlier. The Chevy Club was formerly known as the Cadillac Club."  and that no reason for the shooting, or who did what in that bar it's a little early to make assumptions.
It's quite possible the dead guy was the aggressor,and one of the others in the bar put him down.Should wait for more info before making a fool of yourself over this incident...


GORDON: Did the dude who got shot have it coming?  A lot of people in the world are figuratively begging to be shot, don't you think?

No! The shooter got kicked out of the club and was pissed off about it, so he got a gun (probably from his car) and went back in and started shooting randomly. The victim who died - who had just moved down here from PA a couple of weeks ago - was an innocent bystander, shot in the back of the head, fell with his hands still in his jeans pockets..........

/victim was my daughter's girlfriend's cousin.....the family is devastated.......



There was more information given earlier.  The dead guy was an innocent bystander and not the aggressor.  I'd also suggest looking for more info before making assumptions as well.  Saves a bit of headache.
 
2014-04-27 09:23:57 PM  

Flappyhead: theprinceofwands: bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.

No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

Suuuuure it would.  Turn down the hyperbole dial a little.


When Ogungrabberma  comes after the right a nationwide series of hi-tech hot air balloons will provide all the support the uprising needs. You fail to consider the idea that Smith & Wesson have developed a Mega Man (or Men) type robot series to effectively spot, reprogram and balloonify any invisible drone tanks Lockheed has made available to our heroic men and women in the US military. This is why the 2nd amendment is the only important amendment. It's the only one subtly authorizing software data banks that will subvert control of the power companies and allow the US Alliance for Freedom to weaponize the nation's reserves of McDonald's arches, Wal*Mart floral departments and Starbucks drive-thrus.
 
2014-04-27 09:24:52 PM  
So is this the thread where libtards try to prove that guns r bad, mmmmkay?
 
2014-04-27 09:25:11 PM  

way south: ronaprhys: Finally had some time to read this article


This is fark... why would you do that?


Boredom?  I'm watching two hockey teams I don't care about and had nothing better to do at the time.
 
2014-04-27 09:25:22 PM  
Then there's this guy.

I'm sure the NRA would just love to put him in their commercials.
 
2014-04-27 09:26:03 PM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: EnderX: HawgWild: Violence is the price we pay for our freedom ...
LaurenAguilera: Oh yay. This sh*t again.

SPOONS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE.

WHAAAAAARGARBL MY RIGHTS SECOND AMENDMENT WAJALFJLEFJJF

All we are asking for is the same enforcement they have with the 1st Amendment. Let us carry our weapons and if we use them incorrectly after the fact THEN hold us accountable.

So... you want to be considered a militia but you don't want to be well-regulated you say?


Since 'well-regulated' means only 'practiced', I don't see how that applies.
 
2014-04-27 09:26:25 PM  

GORDON: Did the dude who got shot have it coming?  A lot of people in the world are figuratively begging to be shot, don't you think?


just looking at his FB page I'd have to say yeah he probably had it coming.

I wonder about the other 3 injured though.

3am in a bar is no place to be any way.
 
2014-04-27 09:27:26 PM  

digistil: Adolf Oliver Nipples: For the record, you have always been able to carry a gun into a bar in Pennsylvania. No blood in the streets.

So what exactly are you implying about Georgians?


I'm implying that unless Georgia's citizens are barbarians the trend should hold there as well were that to be legalized, which refutes trollmitter's headline.
 
2014-04-27 09:27:27 PM  

bojon: insurance


You can actually get that now.  Insurance that gives you legal coverage if you have to use a gun in self defense.  Decently priced too.  Like Drivers Legal Plan for truckers.

Of course most of the time when people have used that line it's an excuse to strip peoples ability to exercise their civil rights.
 
2014-04-27 09:27:41 PM  

Hobodeluxe: GORDON: Did the dude who got shot have it coming?  A lot of people in the world are figuratively begging to be shot, don't you think?

just looking at his FB page I'd have to say yeah he probably had it coming.

I wonder about the other 3 injured though.

3am in a bar is no place to be any way.


Horseshiat.  3am and in a bar is winning.

Dick.
 
2014-04-27 09:28:24 PM  

Hobodeluxe: GORDON: Did the dude who got shot have it coming?  A lot of people in the world are figuratively begging to be shot, don't you think?

just looking at his FB page I'd have to say yeah he probably had it coming.

I wonder about the other 3 injured though.

3am in a bar is no place to be any way.


Sez the guy who's probably never worked swing shift.
 
2014-04-27 09:29:53 PM  

ronaprhys: Hobodeluxe: GORDON: Did the dude who got shot have it coming?  A lot of people in the world are figuratively begging to be shot, don't you think?

just looking at his FB page I'd have to say yeah he probably had it coming.

I wonder about the other 3 injured though.

3am in a bar is no place to be any way.

Horseshiat.  3am and in a bar is winning.

Dick.


nah in Ga. that's closing time. If you're still there that means you are a loser. or work there. but that's redundant.
 
2014-04-27 09:30:01 PM  

trekkiecougar: GORDON: Did the dude who got shot have it coming?  A lot of people in the world are figuratively begging to be shot, don't you think?

No! The shooter got kicked out of the club and was pissed off about it, so he got a gun (probably from his car) and went back in and started shooting randomly. The victim who died - who had just moved down here from PA a couple of weeks ago - was an innocent bystander, shot in the back of the head, fell with his hands still in his jeans pockets..........

/victim was my daughter's girlfriend's cousin.....the family is devastated.......


Repeating this for those who want to blame the victim.....
 
2014-04-27 09:30:05 PM  

Thingster: thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not a hell of a lot more.  I would like to see what the failure rate is for people that take the course to get the CHL.  If it is under 10% then they are just wasting everybody's time and they cancel the requirement.

What are the CCW application requirements in your state?

Dont be a felon.

oh and...no, thats all.

PA, not philadelphia?


Farking Texas, unfortunately.  I know, I konow "move!"  I plan to as soon I get a job in Colorado.
 
2014-04-27 09:30:06 PM  

jehovahs witness protection: theprinceofwands: bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.

No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

You mean like obamacare?
Yes...his BS is unconstitutional too.


Well, that's a whole different can of worms.

Yes, I think it's unconstitutional as well, however this is different. NO WHERE in the Constitution will you see an enumerated right to not have medical care, or to drive a car. There IS an enumerated right to bear arms. At both the federal, and almost all state levels.

Once you account for protection against economic disenfranchisement via the 14th, we're covered against insurance requirements.
 
2014-04-27 09:32:08 PM  

Flappyhead: theprinceofwands: bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.

No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

Suuuuure it would.  Turn down the hyperbole dial a little.


No hyperbole whatsoever. In fact, there are a number of militias that have included this in their 'bright line' statements.
 
2014-04-27 09:32:15 PM  

trekkiecougar: trekkiecougar: GORDON: Did the dude who got shot have it coming?  A lot of people in the world are figuratively begging to be shot, don't you think?

No! The shooter got kicked out of the club and was pissed off about it, so he got a gun (probably from his car) and went back in and started shooting randomly. The victim who died - who had just moved down here from PA a couple of weeks ago - was an innocent bystander, shot in the back of the head, fell with his hands still in his jeans pockets..........

/victim was my daughter's girlfriend's cousin.....the family is devastated.......

Repeating this for those who want to blame the victim.....


source?
 
2014-04-27 09:32:27 PM  

theorellior: [www.mindhuestudio.com image 600x337]


Cute.

But no.

You see, both guns and abortion are rights, neither should be subject to stupid restrictions.
 
2014-04-27 09:33:34 PM  

Deathfrogg: Hobodeluxe: GORDON: Did the dude who got shot have it coming?  A lot of people in the world are figuratively begging to be shot, don't you think?

just looking at his FB page I'd have to say yeah he probably had it coming.

I wonder about the other 3 injured though.

3am in a bar is no place to be any way.

Sez the guy who's probably never worked swing shift.


I've worked them all. 1st,2nd,3rd, 12 hour swings (popular in the carpet mills here in No Ga) Drove trucks for a while. and I know that hanging in one of these dive bars til closing time is just asking for trouble. People get drunk on their ass and they get pissed because their lives suck and they don't want to go home,or they didn't pick up anyone to take home,or they lost money shooting pool or they're just angry drunks.
 
2014-04-27 09:33:48 PM  

Hobodeluxe: GORDON: Did the dude who got shot have it coming?  A lot of people in the world are figuratively begging to be shot, don't you think?

just looking at his FB page I'd have to say yeah he probably had it coming.

I wonder about the other 3 injured though.

3am in a bar is no place to be any way.


Do you have any idea how many times I've gotten laid because I was in a bar at 3am?  The hell if it's no place to be.  It can be the best place to be.
 
2014-04-27 09:33:50 PM  

Thingster: PA, not philadelphia?


Pennsylvania has a municipal preemption law in regards to firearms. State law is the *only* law. The only difference in Philadelphia versus the rest of the state is that you must have a valid Pennsylvania concealed carry permit to open carry in Philadelphia County.
 
2014-04-27 09:35:10 PM  

HawgWild: theprinceofwands: 4. Regardless of our level of violence, we really don't have nearly as much freedom as we like to pretend (and it continues to decline).

Name a freedom you don't have anymore.


Freedom to not be forced to purchase insurance or pay a fine.
Freedom to speak and/or assemble peacefully (without undue burden at least).
Freedom from unwarranted search & seizure.
Freedom from unjust detention without speedy trial.

Those are just a couple off the top of my head...given the least inclination I could go on for quite a while (mostly without ever going beyond W's terms of office btw).
 
2014-04-27 09:35:11 PM  

DarkVader: theorellior: [www.mindhuestudio.com image 600x337]

Cute.

But no.

You see, both guns and abortion are rights, neither should be subject to stupid restrictions.


YOU!  are absolutely correct.
 
2014-04-27 09:36:45 PM  
okay my bad I thought the deceased was the shooter and they weren't releasing the victims. I misread it. Still the guy who got shot has a lot of "attitude" on his FB page.
 
2014-04-27 09:37:19 PM  

thisisarepeat: Thingster: thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not a hell of a lot more.  I would like to see what the failure rate is for people that take the course to get the CHL.  If it is under 10% then they are just wasting everybody's time and they cancel the requirement.

What are the CCW application requirements in your state?

Dont be a felon.

oh and...no, thats all.

PA, not philadelphia?

Farking Texas, unfortunately.  I know, I konow "move!"  I plan to as soon I get a job in Colorado.


Not saying move, just didn't know any state handed it CCWs like PA.

No prints, just an application, minimal record, no felonies, references.

You get your permit in 10ish days unless you're in Philadelphia. They fark everything up.
 
2014-04-27 09:37:21 PM  

HawgWild: Violence is the price we pay for our freedom ...


Horseshiat. There are plenty of less free places with more violence. And more free places with less violence.
 
2014-04-27 09:37:44 PM  
Deserve's got nothing to do with it...
 
2014-04-27 09:37:59 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.


Hmm well maybe we need to enforce that standard all around. Fingerprints, NICS check, photos, and all that stuff would definately weed out more people undeserving of owning a gun, more so than the simple 2 hour class and quick felony check.
 
2014-04-27 09:38:04 PM  

slykens1: Thingster: PA, not philadelphia?

Pennsylvania has a municipal preemption law in regards to firearms. State law is the *only* law. The only difference in Philadelphia versus the rest of the state is that you must have a valid Pennsylvania concealed carry permit to open carry in Philadelphia County.


With the exception of the open carry silly law, there's no good reason to prohibit a citizen who's not been clearly proven to be incapable of acting responsibly (i.e., no felonies, restraining orders related to violence, mental deficiency) from carrying concealed or openly.  Statistics and history clearly show that these people are not the problem.  In fact, if one state clears a person, they should have that right in all states.
 
2014-04-27 09:39:56 PM  
Well, I was chatting to the owner of the LGS the other day and got on the subject of selling guns to the mentally unstable, he said that he's been able to avoid that problem so far...as best as he knows, since the cops come to check sales records after a gun is recovered [small town].  I suggested that if we had a perfect way to tell who was unstable enough to use a gun to commit a crime, we would not need any gun laws, but we both laughed at the notion that such a perfect test would EVER be available.

I just think large crowds drinking generates enough problems, throwing loaded firearms into the mix does not seem like a way to HELP any.

Really, it's bad enough to see to macho's have to slug it out over some perceived insult that they won't even REMEMBER tomorrow, but at least both of them usually wake up.  Give one drunk macho a gun and then only one of 'em does maybe, or maybe some innocent bystanders get caught in a bunch of nitwits shooting...Sure it can happen anytime, but more guns just seems logically to mean it can happen more frequently.  This is not really a GUN issue, it's a people issue.
 
2014-04-27 09:40:21 PM  

theprinceofwands: jehovahs witness protection: theprinceofwands: bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.

No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

You mean like obamacare?
Yes...his BS is unconstitutional too.

Well, that's a whole different can of worms.

Yes, I think it's unconstitutional as well, however this is different. NO WHERE in the Constitution will you see an enumerated right to not have medical care, or to drive a car. There IS an enumerated right to bear arms. At both the federal, and almost all state levels.

Once you account for protection against economic disenfranchisement via the 14th, we're covered against insurance requirements.


I see some of you did not read my posts. Buying insurance is to protect you when you are sued, which you surely will be by the person you shot, their relatives, local, state or federal government. Legal fees are a bit expensive.
 
2014-04-27 09:42:13 PM  

theprinceofwands: Flappyhead: theprinceofwands: bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.

No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

Suuuuure it would.  Turn down the hyperbole dial a little.

No hyperbole whatsoever. In fact, there are a number of militias that have included this in their 'bright line' statements.


The "cold, dead hands" crowd are a bunch of phonies. If the government passed a law banning guns tomorrow there would be a very small number of holdouts. Acting tough is easy to do in the absence of any realistic chance that they will be put to the test. Put them to that test and they'll fold.
 
2014-04-27 09:42:34 PM  

theprinceofwands: stoli n coke: i have to ask, what do CCW holders hope to accomplish with a law like this?

Not even figuring in the intoxication factor, bars are often crowded, it's loud, it's dark, sometimes there's pushing and shoving. If they were suddenly faced with the "bad guy with a gun" scenario they get excited over, it seems they'd be more likely to shoot someone who had nothing to do with it. FFS, even Old West Saloons didn't want firearms inside.

It's the same reason guns in movie theaters is a horrible idea.

Well for me it's a big pain in the butt to have to disarm every time I walk into someplace 21 and over. It can create panic when people see me pulling the gun out in the parking lot. It opens me to having it stolen if my vehicle is broken into. It creates an opportunity for an accident (like an accidental discharge).

Further, none of what you say has any factual, statistical backing. There are almost no accidental shootings from permit holders. A few, certainly, but its very VERY rare. It's simply not a reasonable issue. What's more, there have almost never been any significant events from lawful carry of any kind, only the rare random accident. Nearly all crime is, and always has been, from criminals intent on committing the crimes.


So almost no accidental shootings from permit holders, except for those accidental shootings from permit holders?

I am simply wondering what is the point of going into a bar armed. One of the first rules you learn when you learn to shoot is to always know what is behind your target. Even if the "bad guy with a gun" scenario ever happens, it's a situation where the thing behind your target is likely to be another person. If you don't think that scenario is going to happen, what's the point of having it with you?

And what exactly is so difficult about putting the gun in the glove box before you pull into the bar parking lot?
 
2014-04-27 09:42:55 PM  

slykens1: Thingster: PA, not philadelphia?

Pennsylvania has a municipal preemption law in regards to firearms. State law is the *only* law. The only difference in Philadelphia versus the rest of the state is that you must have a valid Pennsylvania concealed carry permit to open carry in Philadelphia County.


I know, but philly levers the morality clause that everyone else ignores.

Philly will deny an ltcf over a dui if they don't like you.
 
2014-04-27 09:44:06 PM  

bojon: theprinceofwands: jehovahs witness protection: theprinceofwands: bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.

No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

You mean like obamacare?
Yes...his BS is unconstitutional too.

Well, that's a whole different can of worms.

Yes, I think it's unconstitutional as well, however this is different. NO WHERE in the Constitution will you see an enumerated right to not have medical care, or to drive a car. There IS an enumerated right to bear arms. At both the federal, and almost all state levels.

Once you account for protection against economic disenfranchisement via the 14th, we're covered against insurance requirements.

I see some of you did not read my posts. Buying insurance is to protect you when you are sued, which you surely will be by the person you shot, their relatives, local, state or federal government. Legal fees are a bit expensive.


Not with proper SYG protections in place. It is my sincere hope to soon see them applied at the national level in an omnibus 'self-defense' statute.
 
2014-04-27 09:45:54 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: The "cold, dead hands" crowd are a bunch of phonies. If the government passed a law banning guns tomorrow there would be a very small number of holdouts. Acting tough is easy to do in the absence of any realistic chance that they will be put to the test. Put them to that test and they'll fold.


I'm always amused when I hear those idiots talk about how easy it would be to overthrow a country.

They'd run like little girls.
 
2014-04-27 09:47:09 PM  

OnlyM3: fusillade762 [TotalFark]

Has the law even gone into effect yet?
Subby is a typical ignorant. you can already legally carry in a bar in GA. Has been legal to do so for years.

The headline should be "Years after GA allows guns in bars, 1 person out of the hundreds libtards predicted got shot."

Same bullshiat as claiming 1 record high temp "proves" global warming.


Hey, Captain Hyperbole, nobody has ever claimed any of straw man things you're making up here.

1) Headline says after the law was signed, and it's specifically in reference to the recently-passed HB 60, which specifically makes references to bars - so obviously there's some kind of change to the previous law, which can't have been as free-and-clear about guns in bars or HB 60 wouldn't have any "bar" related language in it.

2) Please do show us where anyone ever predicted hundreds of people would be shot in bars if this passed.

3) Please do show us where anyone ever said one record-high temp proves global warming. (And BTW, there are literally thousands of instances of people claiming one winter storm disproves global warming - just look at Facebook and Twitter from a few months ago.)

If you don't have anything of value to bring to the conversation, fark off.
 
2014-04-27 09:48:05 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.


It depends on the state, there are a couple states that'll basically just hand 'em to you.

However, GA's CCP has reciprocity with TX (in both directions, I think), so I can guarantee you that they require the 8-hour legal course + conflict resolution training (literally police refresher training in most cases) and the range-based proficiency demonstration at minimum.

Also, it's most likely still illegal to carry while  intoxicated, I don't think there's a state in the union where that's not a felony, frequently one harsh enough to carry jail time.


theprinceofwands: Well for me it's a big pain in the butt to have to disarm every time I walk into someplace 21 and over. It can create panic when people see me pulling the gun out in the parking lot. It opens me to having it stolen if my vehicle is broken into. It creates an opportunity for an accident (like an accidental discharge).


Look, I have some degree of sympathy with your annoyance, but you really have to understand that that's all that it is... annoyance.  Handle the gun properly, in this case by removing it from the holster before exiting the vehicle and stowing it somewhere that it isn't visible, and don't ever draw it with your dumbass finger on the farking trigger in any situation you're not actually trying to shoot something, and literally none of that is any kind of real hazard at all.

I've disarmed hundreds of times outside no-CC areas (I work in one) and never once have I even come close to being careless enough that any of those things were a possibility.  If there's any non-negligible chance of accidental discharge when you disarm, especially, you're bad enough at handling the weapon that you're a danger to yourself and others just from having it and should probably stop carrying altogether.

That is not hyperbole or a joke: if there is some potential for a negligent discharge to occur in the course of pulling your piece out of a holster and sticking it into a concealed auto compartment (or I suppose seat holder) then you  should not be in the possession of a firearm.

// If you seriously got to the age where you can possess a CCP without once doing something stupid or dangerously clumsy in the "barely avoided injury" sense... then you're a damned liar, of course you have.  And thus you understand damned well why the gun should not go into the bar.  Even if you're not inebriated you're someone else's drunken stumble plus some bad luck from a hole in the proprietor's nice bar stools.
 
2014-04-27 09:48:07 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: theprinceofwands: Flappyhead: theprinceofwands: bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.

No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

Suuuuure it would.  Turn down the hyperbole dial a little.

No hyperbole whatsoever. In fact, there are a number of militias that have included this in their 'bright line' statements.

The "cold, dead hands" crowd are a bunch of phonies. If the government passed a law banning guns tomorrow there would be a very small number of holdouts. Acting tough is easy to do in the absence of any realistic chance that they will be put to the test. Put them to that test and they'll fold.


I'll put my money on 10-30 million active participants, with up to 150-200 million siding with them. Remember that ~85% of citizens object to even handgun bans, and that's what's responsible for ~75% of violence. As evidence I would remind you that many of us already joined the military, often during a time of war, demonstrating that we are fully prepared to kill or die for what we believe in.

Further, it wouldn't matter since a large percent of 'the state' would refuse to participate against citizens, rendering the need for active engagement irrelevant.
 
2014-04-27 09:48:24 PM  

Thingster: thisisarepeat: Thingster: thisisarepeat: redmid17: thisisarepeat: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not a hell of a lot more.  I would like to see what the failure rate is for people that take the course to get the CHL.  If it is under 10% then they are just wasting everybody's time and they cancel the requirement.

What are the CCW application requirements in your state?

Dont be a felon.

oh and...no, thats all.

PA, not philadelphia?

Farking Texas, unfortunately.  I know, I konow "move!"  I plan to as soon I get a job in Colorado.

Not saying move, just didn't know any state handed it CCWs like PA.

No prints, just an application, minimal record, no felonies, references.

You get your permit in 10ish days unless you're in Philadelphia. They fark everything up.


Texas requires fingerprinting.  I let my permit expire, not because of the indignity of being told "dont help" by a sheriffs deputy that looks like he just waddled off the set of "My 600 lb Life" but because its legal to have a loaded firearm in your vehicle and they only place I go where I feel like I need to carry anything is when I go to the V.A. hospital in Dallas and when I get into the parking lot I don't really feel like I need it anymore.
 
2014-04-27 09:49:37 PM  

100 Watt Walrus: 2) Please do show us where anyone ever predicted hundreds of people would be shot in bars if this passed.


It was implied in trollmitter's headline, with his "What, only three days?" schtick, which intimates that wow, it sure didn't take very long so more should be expected.
 
2014-04-27 09:49:48 PM  

theprinceofwands: Flappyhead: theprinceofwands: bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.

No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

Suuuuure it would.  Turn down the hyperbole dial a little.

No hyperbole whatsoever. In fact, there are a number of militias that have included this in their 'bright line' statements.


Yes because those redneck yokels represent the entire country.  You know what would have happened in Nevada had government officers called the bluff of those nitwits?  A lot of pants shiatting and a stampede of 40somethings running as fast as they could in the opposite direction.
 
2014-04-27 09:50:37 PM  

100 Watt Walrus: OnlyM3: fusillade762 [TotalFark]

Has the law even gone into effect yet?
Subby is a typical ignorant. you can already legally carry in a bar in GA. Has been legal to do so for years.

The headline should be "Years after GA allows guns in bars, 1 person out of the hundreds libtards predicted got shot."

Same bullshiat as claiming 1 record high temp "proves" global warming.

Hey, Captain Hyperbole, nobody has ever claimed any of straw man things you're making up here.

1) Headline says after the law was signed, and it's specifically in reference to the recently-passed HB 60, which specifically makes references to bars - so obviously there's some kind of change to the previous law, which can't have been as free-and-clear about guns in bars or HB 60 wouldn't have any "bar" related language in it.

2) Please do show us where anyone ever predicted hundreds of people would be shot in bars if this passed.

3) Please do show us where anyone ever said one record-high temp proves global warming. (And BTW, there are literally thousands of instances of people claiming one winter storm disproves global warming - just look at Facebook and Twitter from a few months ago.)

If you don't have anything of value to bring to the conversation, fark off.


The point is clear.  One thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Linking the two is nothing more than pure idiocy.  Subby engaged in it, the mods supported it.  The new laws have nothing to do with this shooting.
 
2014-04-27 09:51:00 PM  

Pokey.Clyde: EvilEgg: My solution is they have to wear their permits like badges.

Kind of defeats the purpose of concealed carry, doesn't it?

/didn't think that one all the way through, did you?


And, if you are truly a respectable conceal carry owner, no one shoul be able to tell you have a weapon on you. That's the basis for it. You don't show it off or tell anyone you have it. Best case scenario: you are packing a concealed carry weapon, you go to a public establishment that allows it, have fun or whatever, then leave without anyone ever knowing or suspecting you had a gun at all. If there's an outrage about someone having a concealed weapon in a place that allows it then they abviously aren't adhering to the "concealed" part and are either careless or just stupidly flashing their weapon. Trust me, no one would know i had my gun on me unless I wanted them to and yet I can draw it in an instant i need be.
 
2014-04-27 09:51:11 PM  

Jim_Callahan: Also, it's most likely still illegal to carry while intoxicated, I don't think there's a state in the union where that's not a felony, frequently one harsh enough to carry jail time.


It's not a felony in Pennsylvania. You can get as drunk as you want to. If it's not forbidden in the Uniform Firearms Code it's not forbidden anywhere thanks to preemption.
 
2014-04-27 09:53:25 PM  

Bullseyed: ZAZ: The law goes into effect July 1, according to CNN.

Liberals never let facts get in the way of their fascism.

If the law had been in effect, a good guy could have stopped him.


Yeah, I came here to say:  If everyone in the bar had been carrying, none of this would have happened.
 
2014-04-27 09:53:42 PM  

theprinceofwands: Adolf Oliver Nipples: theprinceofwands: Flappyhead: theprinceofwands: bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.

No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

Suuuuure it would.  Turn down the hyperbole dial a little.

No hyperbole whatsoever. In fact, there are a number of militias that have included this in their 'bright line' statements.

The "cold, dead hands" crowd are a bunch of phonies. If the government passed a law banning guns tomorrow there would be a very small number of holdouts. Acting tough is easy to do in the absence of any realistic chance that they will be put to the test. Put them to that test and they'll fold.

I'll put my money on 10-30 million active participants, with up to 150-200 million siding with them. Remember that ~85% of citizens object to even handgun bans, and that's what's responsible for ~75% of violence. As evidence I would remind you that many of us already joined the military, often during a time of war, demonstrating that we are fully prepared to kill or die for what we believe in.

Further, it wouldn't matter since a large percent of 'the state' would refuse to participate against citizens, rendering the need for active engagement irrelevant.


I have a hard time believing you typed that with a straight face.
 
2014-04-27 09:56:37 PM  

ronaprhys: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: I never said crime. I said violence. There is a huge difference.

Intentional violence is taking the same hypothetical farktard mentioned above, putting him in a situation that causes him to discharge the weapon voluntarily - like shooting an immediate threat.

Unintentional violence is the farktard leaving the gun loaded and easily available where a toddler finds it.

A proper vetting process with safety training, target proficiency, proof of insurance, and preferably a mental health evaluation helps minimize that aspect of the problem.

So, you attempt to limit your failed argument to something that's also failed? Prove that relaxing firearm laws actually leads to an increase in firearm violence.  Do so with actual facts and statistics.  Show a clear trend, not cherry picked anecdotes or logic that's been disproven by actual history.


http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_04.pdf

2010 numbers.

Strong disparity in death for young (under 44) men of African-American and Hispanic races versus white or female rates. Crime problem - can be attacked by changing stance on drugs and better anti poverty measures.

Noticeable spike in injuries and death per capita of firearm discharge in areas with large urban centers (DC) and in extremely remote areas (Wyoming, Alaska, New Mexico) leading to the conclusion that gun deaths happen more frequently where large percentages of the population have access to firearms (legal and illegal).
 
2014-04-27 09:56:44 PM  

Jim_Callahan: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

It depends on the state, there are a couple states that'll basically just hand 'em to you.

However, GA's CCP has reciprocity with TX (in both directions, I think), so I can guarantee you that they require the 8-hour legal course + conflict resolution training (literally police refresher training in most cases) and the range-based proficiency demonstration at minimum.

Also, it's most likely still illegal to carry while  intoxicated, I don't think there's a state in the union where that's not a felony, frequently one harsh enough to carry jail time.


theprinceofwands: Well for me it's a big pain in the butt to have to disarm every time I walk into someplace 21 and over. It can create panic when people see me pulling the gun out in the parking lot. It opens me to having it stolen if my vehicle is broken into. It creates an opportunity for an accident (like an accidental discharge).

Look, I have some degree of sympathy with your annoyance, but you really have to understand that that's all that it is... annoyance.  Handle the gun properly, in this case by removing it from the holster before exiting the vehicle and stowing it somewhere that it isn't visible, and don't ever draw it with your dumbass finger on the farking trigger in any situation you're not actually trying to shoot something, and literally none of that is any kind of real hazard at all.

I've disarmed hundreds of times outside no-CC areas (I work in one) and never once have I even come close to being careless enough that any of those things were a possibility.  If there's any non-negligible chance of accidental discharge when you disarm, especially, you're bad enough at handling the weapon that you're a danger to yourself and others just from having it and should probably stop carrying altogether.

That is not hyperbole or a joke: if there is some potential for a negligent discharge to occur in the ...


I'd submit that it depends on the bar.  In both states where I hold a CPL or CCW, the laws are slightly different.  In MI, it's a place where the primary income is liquor.  In Ohio, it's allowable in bars.  However, in neither is it allowable to have a drink while carrying.  So, if I'm going into a sparsely-populated bar, it's really no different than a restaurant.  In fact, if I've a decent holster, the drunk falling into me is a negligible issue.

I'm not saying I'd necessarily carry into a bar - but that should be a personal choice, not a legislative one.
 
2014-04-27 09:56:56 PM  

stoli n coke: theprinceofwands: stoli n coke: i have to ask, what do CCW holders hope to accomplish with a law like this?

Not even figuring in the intoxication factor, bars are often crowded, it's loud, it's dark, sometimes there's pushing and shoving. If they were suddenly faced with the "bad guy with a gun" scenario they get excited over, it seems they'd be more likely to shoot someone who had nothing to do with it. FFS, even Old West Saloons didn't want firearms inside.

It's the same reason guns in movie theaters is a horrible idea.

Well for me it's a big pain in the butt to have to disarm every time I walk into someplace 21 and over. It can create panic when people see me pulling the gun out in the parking lot. It opens me to having it stolen if my vehicle is broken into. It creates an opportunity for an accident (like an accidental discharge).

Further, none of what you say has any factual, statistical backing. There are almost no accidental shootings from permit holders. A few, certainly, but its very VERY rare. It's simply not a reasonable issue. What's more, there have almost never been any significant events from lawful carry of any kind, only the rare random accident. Nearly all crime is, and always has been, from criminals intent on committing the crimes.

So almost no accidental shootings from permit holders, except for those accidental shootings from permit holders?

I am simply wondering what is the point of going into a bar armed. One of the first rules you learn when you learn to shoot is to always know what is behind your target. Even if the "bad guy with a gun" scenario ever happens, it's a situation where the thing behind your target is likely to be another person. If you don't think that scenario is going to happen, what's the point of having it with you?

And what exactly is so difficult about putting the gun in the glove box before you pull into the bar parking lot?


There are tens of millions of people carrying weapons legally in the US. Having a handful experience accidents is a statistical imperative, but also wholly irrelevant. The numbers are simply too small to matter in any way, shape or form.

The point is the same as being armed anywhere - readiness for defense when essential. Your right to protect yourself doesn't expire when you walk into a bar or other off-limits location (or at least it shouldn't).

It certainly wouldn't be an ideal shooting environment, however in a serious event when the alternative is almost certain death or injury it's probably better to do your best and hope. The right to defense is, or should, trump the potential for possible accident stemming from exercising that absolute right.

You want me to sit forward, reach under my coat/shirt, free my sidearm, open the glove compartment (or in my case my gun safe), and safely stow my weapon WHILE driving??? I think the police and the NHTSA might have something to say about that. Never mind the fact that one should NEVER disarm until absolutely required by law as it creates a 'helpless zone' where you are open to harm.
 
2014-04-27 09:57:53 PM  

OnlyM3: Mugato [TotalFark]

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.
Why is it not at all surprising that the guy that supports the government restricting the First also hates the Second.

// Also not surprised you lie about the facts. A carry permit has nothing to do with gun-shows.


Don't let facts get in the way of a good spin?? how dare you!
 
2014-04-27 09:58:22 PM  

Deathfrogg: Then there's this guy.

I'm sure the NRA would just love to put him in their commercials.


Oh, no one cares about the Georgia gun owner who repelled an angry mob all by himself without firing a shot.
 
2014-04-27 09:59:37 PM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: ronaprhys: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: I never said crime. I said violence. There is a huge difference.

Intentional violence is taking the same hypothetical farktard mentioned above, putting him in a situation that causes him to discharge the weapon voluntarily - like shooting an immediate threat.

Unintentional violence is the farktard leaving the gun loaded and easily available where a toddler finds it.

A proper vetting process with safety training, target proficiency, proof of insurance, and preferably a mental health evaluation helps minimize that aspect of the problem.

So, you attempt to limit your failed argument to something that's also failed? Prove that relaxing firearm laws actually leads to an increase in firearm violence.  Do so with actual facts and statistics.  Show a clear trend, not cherry picked anecdotes or logic that's been disproven by actual history.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_04.pdf

2010 numbers.

Strong disparity in death for young (under 44) men of African-American and Hispanic races versus white or female rates. Crime problem - can be attacked by changing stance on drugs and better anti poverty measures.

Noticeable spike in injuries and death per capita of firearm discharge in areas with large urban centers (DC) and in extremely remote areas (Wyoming, Alaska, New Mexico) leading to the conclusion that gun deaths happen more frequently where large percentages of the population have access to firearms (legal and illegal).


Dammit, son.  Learn2Read.

We're talking about places where firearm laws are relaxed.  DC doesn't really qualify as that's drug-related or gang-related crime.  Those other places have their own issues.  Specifically called out was a change in the rate of firearm-related problems when the laws were relaxed.

Pay attention, eh,  hoser.
 
2014-04-27 10:00:42 PM  

theprinceofwands: Freedom to not be forced to purchase insurance or pay a fine.
Freedom to speak and/or assemble peacefully (without undue burden at least).
Freedom from unwarranted search & seizure.
Freedom from unjust detention without speedy trial.


That's a tax. Supreme Court says so. And I think we still have the 1st and 4th Amendments, as well as habeas corpus.

So ... yeah, no.
 
2014-04-27 10:01:17 PM  

Jim_Callahan: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

It depends on the state, there are a couple states that'll basically just hand 'em to you.

However, GA's CCP has reciprocity with TX (in both directions, I think), so I can guarantee you that they require the 8-hour legal course + conflict resolution training (literally police refresher training in most cases) and the range-based proficiency demonstration at minimum.

Also, it's most likely still illegal to carry while  intoxicated, I don't think there's a state in the union where that's not a felony, frequently one harsh enough to carry jail time.


theprinceofwands: Well for me it's a big pain in the butt to have to disarm every time I walk into someplace 21 and over. It can create panic when people see me pulling the gun out in the parking lot. It opens me to having it stolen if my vehicle is broken into. It creates an opportunity for an accident (like an accidental discharge).

Look, I have some degree of sympathy with your annoyance, but you really have to understand that that's all that it is... annoyance.  Handle the gun properly, in this case by removing it from the holster before exiting the vehicle and stowing it somewhere that it isn't visible, and don't ever draw it with your dumbass finger on the farking trigger in any situation you're not actually trying to shoot something, and literally none of that is any kind of real hazard at all.

I've disarmed hundreds of times outside no-CC areas (I work in one) and never once have I even come close to being careless enough that any of those things were a possibility.  If there's any non-negligible chance of accidental discharge when you disarm, especially, you're bad enough at handling the weapon that you're a danger to yourself and others just from having it and should probably stop carrying altogether.

That is not hyperbole or a joke: if there is some potential for a negligent discharge to occur in the ...


It's more than an annoyance when I get slammed onto a patrol car because some ignorant biatch calls the police when they see me legally stowing my weapon (yes, it's happened, though fortunately not to me). Even if the responding officers handle it correctly, it's time and stress I shouldn't have to endure.

No matter how careful you are, there's ALWAYS the potential for an accident. Therefore you should do everything possible to reduce the frequency of exposure (ie don't handle it more than twice - once to put it on, once to take it off).
 
2014-04-27 10:01:50 PM  

KidneyStone: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

When I got mine in Forstyh County, Georgia, it was $70, some paperwork, then a trip around the corner to get fingerprinted.  It came in the mail 9 days later.  I woulnd't be unhappy with a requirement for a class but I'm glad i didn't have to pay for all that.  I already knew how to shoot (pretty well if i do say so myself) and I'd just as soon have it never leave the holster except for range time and monthly cleanin.


Yeah.  What's up with that?  It used to be $16.  I almost didn't renew.  Forsyth.
 
2014-04-27 10:02:09 PM  
theprinceofwands: You want me to sit forward, reach under my coat/shirt, free my sidearm, open the glove compartment (or in my case my gun safe), and safely stow my weapon WHILE driving??? I think the police and the NHTSA might have something to say about that. Never mind the fact that one should NEVER disarm until absolutely required by law as it creates a 'helpless zone' where you are open to harm.

You feel "helpless" in your own car unless you're armed? You're a real manly man, ain't ya?

I guess being surrounded by 2 tons of steel that can outrun anyone wishing harm on you in less than four seconds just isn't security enough.
 
2014-04-27 10:02:20 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.


In my state it's $10 to the police, and a 10 day waitin period.
 
2014-04-27 10:03:15 PM  

stoli n coke: theprinceofwands: You want me to sit forward, reach under my coat/shirt, free my sidearm, open the glove compartment (or in my case my gun safe), and safely stow my weapon WHILE driving??? I think the police and the NHTSA might have something to say about that. Never mind the fact that one should NEVER disarm until absolutely required by law as it creates a 'helpless zone' where you are open to harm.

You feel "helpless" in your own car unless you're armed? You're a real manly man, ain't ya?

I guess being surrounded by 2 tons of steel that can outrun anyone wishing harm on you in less than four seconds just isn't security enough.


So, in lieu of an actual argument, you resort to nonsense?

A winnar is you.
 
2014-04-27 10:03:43 PM  
Drunk people + guns= Darwin is going to be very happy.
 
2014-04-27 10:05:28 PM  

Flappyhead: theprinceofwands: Flappyhead: theprinceofwands: bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.

No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

Suuuuure it would.  Turn down the hyperbole dial a little.

No hyperbole whatsoever. In fact, there are a number of militias that have included this in their 'bright line' statements.

Yes because those redneck yokels represent the entire country.  You know what would have happened in Nevada had government officers called the bluff of those nitwits?  A lot of pants shiatting and a stampede of 40somethings running as fast as they could in the opposite direction.


More likely it would have been government agents murdering people, like in so many other 'standoff' situations. Not that it was a clear violation situation...that one was tenuous at best.

A ban of firearms (even using an endaround like insurance requirements) would be obvious and immediate, making every government employee immoral/unlawful by default thereby resulting in an entirely different situation. Remember also that large numbers of government employees would refuse to participate in such actions against otherwise lawful citizens, reducing the likelihood of encounter.
 
2014-04-27 10:05:55 PM  

stoli n coke: theprinceofwands: You want me to sit forward, reach under my coat/shirt, free my sidearm, open the glove compartment (or in my case my gun safe), and safely stow my weapon WHILE driving??? I think the police and the NHTSA might have something to say about that. Never mind the fact that one should NEVER disarm until absolutely required by law as it creates a 'helpless zone' where you are open to harm.

You feel "helpless" in your own car unless you're armed? You're a real manly man, ain't ya?

I guess being surrounded by 2 tons of steel that can outrun anyone wishing harm on you in less than four seconds just isn't security enough.


Was it for that kid that got shot for playing loud music?

Come on, man. Not every discussion has to turn to "manliness" or some otherwise unquantifiable machismo. And that goes for everybody. There are enough facts to have a discussion without stupid rhetoric.
 
2014-04-27 10:06:15 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Jim_Callahan: Also, it's most likely still illegal to carry while intoxicated, I don't think there's a state in the union where that's not a felony, frequently one harsh enough to carry jail time.

It's not a felony in Pennsylvania. You can get as drunk as you want to. If it's not forbidden in the Uniform Firearms Code it's not forbidden anywhere thanks to preemption.


There are MANY states where you can carry while intoxicated. Washington is one.
 
2014-04-27 10:07:26 PM  

Dimensio: ZAZ: The law goes into effect July 1, according to CNN.

Facts are not important when evaluating public safety policy.

/Whether the shooter had a valid concealed weapons permit is also irrelevant.


Well the bigger story is the last club at this location had its license pulled for violence, some clubs just have issues and LEGAL guns have never been the issue.
 
2014-04-27 10:07:42 PM  

Flappyhead: theprinceofwands: Adolf Oliver Nipples: theprinceofwands: Flappyhead: theprinceofwands: bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.

No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

Suuuuure it would.  Turn down the hyperbole dial a little.

No hyperbole whatsoever. In fact, there are a number of militias that have included this in their 'bright line' statements.

The "cold, dead hands" crowd are a bunch of phonies. If the government passed a law banning guns tomorrow there would be a very small number of holdouts. Acting tough is easy to do in the absence of any realistic chance that they will be put to the test. Put them to that test and they'll fold.

I'll put my money on 10-30 million active participants, with up to 150-200 million siding with them. Remember that ~85% of citizens object to even handgun bans, and that's what's responsible for ~75% of violence. As evidence I would remind you that many of us already joined the military, often during a time of war, demonstrating that we are fully prepared to kill or die for what we believe in.

Further, it wouldn't matter since a large percent of 'the state' would refuse to participate against citizens, rendering the need for active engagement irrelevant.

I have a hard time believing you typed that with a straight face.


Former military, highly intelligent, highly educated in related social science fields, focus on this and related issues for most of my professional life - I assure you I'm completely serious.
 
2014-04-27 10:09:20 PM  

theprinceofwands: More likely it would have been government agents murdering people, like in so many other 'standoff' situations. Not that it was a clear violation situation...that one was tenuous at best.


Murdering people? Aiming weapons at law enforcement officers properly executing their duties is a crime. If they were killed under those circumstances it wouldn't qualify as murder under any definition.

Bundy is wrong, he has been wrong for a long time, and he will continue to be wrong until he starts obeying the law. That the law hasn't been enforced for a long time doesn't mean that he wasn't breaking it. We are a nation of laws. An armed mob preventing enforcement is not consistent with that.
 
2014-04-27 10:09:30 PM  

stoli n coke: You feel "helpless" in your own car unless you're armed? You're a real manly man, ain't ya?


Name calling on an anonymous internet board? Might want to take a look in the mirror.
 
2014-04-27 10:10:35 PM  
theprinceofwands:

More likely it would have been government agents murdering people, like in so many other 'standoff' situations. Not that it was a clear violation situation...that one was tenuous at best.

Armed people walking onto government property to interfere with the legal removal of cattle trespassing on the land isn't a clear violation?  Yep, red is a nice color for you.
 
2014-04-27 10:11:06 PM  

HawgWild: theprinceofwands: Freedom to not be forced to purchase insurance or pay a fine.
Freedom to speak and/or assemble peacefully (without undue burden at least).
Freedom from unwarranted search & seizure.
Freedom from unjust detention without speedy trial.

That's a tax. Supreme Court says so. And I think we still have the 1st and 4th Amendments, as well as habeas corpus.

So ... yeah, no.


The supreme court also said we had to return slaves, separate but equal was ok, japanese internment was acceptable, corporations are people with unlimited political funding options, etc. Just because the court says something doesn't actually make it true...merely accepted.

We have empty amendments - ask anyone in Gitmo, ask the people having their data mined, etc, etc, etc.

So, yeah, yes.

I'm not saying we're nazi germany (YET), but neither do we retain the freedoms we once held. Period. Any attempt to suggest otherwise is ignorance, or intentional evil.
 
2014-04-27 10:11:20 PM  

ronaprhys: DC doesn't really qualify as that's drug-related or gang-related crime. Those other places have their own issues. Specifically called out was a change in the rate of firearm-related problems when the laws were relaxed.


So the goalposts got moved because drug or gang related crime doesn't count.

And the second part of my previous response: A rise in gun death and injuries in areas where large percentages of the population have access to firearms, a statistic directly derived from making it easier to acquire firearms.

I don't support a ban. I think confiscation is an implausible idea that dumb people wank to. I'm saying that projectile launchers capable of ending a human life, either through malice or negligence, are under-regulated for the potential harm one could do with it. I also believe responsible, intelligent gun owners are the majority (like any hobby group - the 10% asstard demographic gets undue attention relative to their size).

Cars, alcohol, weaponry, and especially drugs need a serious re-evaluation on policy goals.
 
2014-04-27 10:13:30 PM  

stoli n coke: theprinceofwands: You want me to sit forward, reach under my coat/shirt, free my sidearm, open the glove compartment (or in my case my gun safe), and safely stow my weapon WHILE driving??? I think the police and the NHTSA might have something to say about that. Never mind the fact that one should NEVER disarm until absolutely required by law as it creates a 'helpless zone' where you are open to harm.

You feel "helpless" in your own car unless you're armed? You're a real manly man, ain't ya?

I guess being surrounded by 2 tons of steel that can outrun anyone wishing harm on you in less than four seconds just isn't security enough.


You're an idiot. Lemme see you 'outrun' anything in rush hour traffic, or in Geo anywhere. You fail to understand what being prepared is, and why people choose to be so. It's your right to be ignorant, of course, but don't waste my time with your stupidity.
 
2014-04-27 10:13:40 PM  

theprinceofwands: Former military, highly intelligent, highly educated in related social science fields, focus on this and related issues for most of my professional life - I assure you I'm completely serious.


I'm sure you are serious. Were we talking about a revolution it would probably happen that way. A potential repeal of the 2nd Amendment, properly ratified, or even a state or local ordinance, would not be the catalyst for revolution. The government would demand the weapons and the 2nd Amendment absolutists would largely line up and turn them in.
 
2014-04-27 10:14:21 PM  
Wow. This is just getting silly.
 
2014-04-27 10:14:22 PM  

ronaprhys: stoli n coke: theprinceofwands: You want me to sit forward, reach under my coat/shirt, free my sidearm, open the glove compartment (or in my case my gun safe), and safely stow my weapon WHILE driving??? I think the police and the NHTSA might have something to say about that. Never mind the fact that one should NEVER disarm until absolutely required by law as it creates a 'helpless zone' where you are open to harm.

You feel "helpless" in your own car unless you're armed? You're a real manly man, ain't ya?

I guess being surrounded by 2 tons of steel that can outrun anyone wishing harm on you in less than four seconds just isn't security enough.

So, in lieu of an actual argument, you resort to nonsense?

A winnar is you.


The "helpless zone" is nonsense. By that logic, the law forces hunters into a helpless zone every time they have to stow their weapons.
 
2014-04-27 10:15:45 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: theprinceofwands: More likely it would have been government agents murdering people, like in so many other 'standoff' situations. Not that it was a clear violation situation...that one was tenuous at best.

Murdering people? Aiming weapons at law enforcement officers properly executing their duties is a crime. If they were killed under those circumstances it wouldn't qualify as murder under any definition.

Bundy is wrong, he has been wrong for a long time, and he will continue to be wrong until he starts obeying the law. That the law hasn't been enforced for a long time doesn't mean that he wasn't breaking it. We are a nation of laws. An armed mob preventing enforcement is not consistent with that.


That's the key right there. Not to invoke Godwin, but by your definitions you should have been shot if you'd tried to hide Jews in Germany...after all, they were legally carrying out their duty. That's why you're wrong, and a terrible person.

Doing what you believe to be right is the ONLY law that matters. Ever. It's how/why this nation exists, and is a requirement to name yourself among its citizens in my opinion.
 
2014-04-27 10:16:22 PM  

theprinceofwands: HawgWild: theprinceofwands: Freedom to not be forced to purchase insurance or pay a fine.
Freedom to speak and/or assemble peacefully (without undue burden at least).
Freedom from unwarranted search & seizure.
Freedom from unjust detention without speedy trial.

That's a tax. Supreme Court says so. And I think we still have the 1st and 4th Amendments, as well as habeas corpus.

So ... yeah, no.

The supreme court also said we had to return slaves, separate but equal was ok, japanese internment was acceptable, corporations are people with unlimited political funding options, etc. Just because the court says something doesn't actually make it true...merely accepted.

We have empty amendments - ask anyone in Gitmo, ask the people having their data mined, etc, etc, etc.

So, yeah, yes.

I'm not saying we're nazi germany (YET), but neither do we retain the freedoms we once held. Period. Any attempt to suggest otherwise is ignorance, or intentional evil.


Holy crap, dude. The government boogey man ain't out to get you.
 
2014-04-27 10:16:32 PM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: ronaprhys: DC doesn't really qualify as that's drug-related or gang-related crime. Those other places have their own issues. Specifically called out was a change in the rate of firearm-related problems when the laws were relaxed.

So the goalposts got moved because drug or gang related crime doesn't count.

And the second part of my previous response: A rise in gun death and injuries in areas where large percentages of the population have access to firearms, a statistic directly derived from making it easier to acquire firearms.

I don't support a ban. I think confiscation is an implausible idea that dumb people wank to. I'm saying that projectile launchers capable of ending a human life, either through malice or negligence, are under-regulated for the potential harm one could do with it. I also believe responsible, intelligent gun owners are the majority (like any hobby group - the 10% asstard demographic gets undue attention relative to their size).

Cars, alcohol, weaponry, and especially drugs need a serious re-evaluation on policy goals.


No, idiot.  I talked about an increase in firearm-related violence due to the relaxation of laws.  You tried to move the goalposts and use places where laws have not changed, have had a long history of firearm crimes, etc.  That's basically lying on your part.
 
2014-04-27 10:16:36 PM  

theprinceofwands: stoli n coke: theprinceofwands: You want me to sit forward, reach under my coat/shirt, free my sidearm, open the glove compartment (or in my case my gun safe), and safely stow my weapon WHILE driving??? I think the police and the NHTSA might have something to say about that. Never mind the fact that one should NEVER disarm until absolutely required by law as it creates a 'helpless zone' where you are open to harm.

You feel "helpless" in your own car unless you're armed? You're a real manly man, ain't ya?

I guess being surrounded by 2 tons of steel that can outrun anyone wishing harm on you in less than four seconds just isn't security enough.

You're an idiot. Lemme see you 'outrun' anything in rush hour traffic, or in Geo anywhere. You fail to understand what being prepared is, and why people choose to be so. It's your right to be ignorant, of course, but don't waste my time with your stupidity.


Do you really think you're going to get carjacked during rush hour? Either you're moving or you're stuck in traffic, which makes the thief's getaway impossible.
 
2014-04-27 10:17:20 PM  

stoli n coke: ronaprhys: stoli n coke: theprinceofwands: You want me to sit forward, reach under my coat/shirt, free my sidearm, open the glove compartment (or in my case my gun safe), and safely stow my weapon WHILE driving??? I think the police and the NHTSA might have something to say about that. Never mind the fact that one should NEVER disarm until absolutely required by law as it creates a 'helpless zone' where you are open to harm.

You feel "helpless" in your own car unless you're armed? You're a real manly man, ain't ya?

I guess being surrounded by 2 tons of steel that can outrun anyone wishing harm on you in less than four seconds just isn't security enough.

So, in lieu of an actual argument, you resort to nonsense?

A winnar is you.

The "helpless zone" is nonsense. By that logic, the law forces hunters into a helpless zone every time they have to stow their weapons.


A winnar is you.
 
2014-04-27 10:18:04 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: theprinceofwands: Former military, highly intelligent, highly educated in related social science fields, focus on this and related issues for most of my professional life - I assure you I'm completely serious.

I'm sure you are serious. Were we talking about a revolution it would probably happen that way. A potential repeal of the 2nd Amendment, properly ratified, or even a state or local ordinance, would not be the catalyst for revolution. The government would demand the weapons and the 2nd Amendment absolutists would largely line up and turn them in.


We have a fundamental disagreement that cannot be resolved. Fortunately we're both allowed to continue to hold those beliefs and just see how it turns out in the end. Fortunately I sincerely doubt it will ever come to that. As dumb as politicians are I can't believe they'd ever risk it.
 
2014-04-27 10:21:33 PM  

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Deathfrogg: Then there's this guy.

I'm sure the NRA would just love to put him in their commercials.

Oh, no one cares about the Georgia gun owner who repelled an angry mob all by himself without firing a shot.


Heh..."THE CHILDREN!!!11!!1!!"
 
2014-04-27 10:21:42 PM  

stoli n coke: theprinceofwands: stoli n coke: theprinceofwands: You want me to sit forward, reach under my coat/shirt, free my sidearm, open the glove compartment (or in my case my gun safe), and safely stow my weapon WHILE driving??? I think the police and the NHTSA might have something to say about that. Never mind the fact that one should NEVER disarm until absolutely required by law as it creates a 'helpless zone' where you are open to harm.

You feel "helpless" in your own car unless you're armed? You're a real manly man, ain't ya?

I guess being surrounded by 2 tons of steel that can outrun anyone wishing harm on you in less than four seconds just isn't security enough.

You're an idiot. Lemme see you 'outrun' anything in rush hour traffic, or in Geo anywhere. You fail to understand what being prepared is, and why people choose to be so. It's your right to be ignorant, of course, but don't waste my time with your stupidity.

Do you really think you're going to get carjacked during rush hour? Either you're moving or you're stuck in traffic, which makes the thief's getaway impossible.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/police-investigate-more-bu mp -and-run-carjackings/2013/10/11/dc242aca-32a2-11e3-8627-c5d7de0a046b_s tory.html

Or the one in colorado recently where the kid was in the back?

Is it likely to happen? No. DOES it EVER happen? Yes.
 
2014-04-27 10:22:51 PM  

stoli n coke: i have to ask, what do CCW holders hope to accomplish with a law like this?

Not even figuring in the intoxication factor, bars are often crowded, it's loud, it's dark, sometimes there's pushing and shoving. If they were suddenly faced with the "bad guy with a gun" scenario they get excited over, it seems they'd be more likely to shoot someone who had nothing to do with it. FFS, even Old West Saloons didn't want firearms inside.

It's the same reason guns in movie theaters is a horrible idea.


It's not really that anyone thinks that they are going to need to be in a gun fight in a bar, or anywhere else for that matter, it's more so that you don't have to leave your weapon in a car semi-secured.  Thieves here target trucks looking for guns.  For CCW permit holders, it's pretty much a hassle to have to think "can I take my weapon in this place"?  I can promise that before the law, and even now, there are lots of guns in prohibited places for this reason, and know one knows.....because it's concealed.

I always laugh at these threads simply because everyone gets so worked up.  If you don't like the laws, get them changed.  Good luck to you.
 
2014-04-27 10:23:01 PM  

Danger Avoid Death: baorao: The Chevy Club was formerly known as the Cadillac Club.

*snert*

[25.media.tumblr.com image 500x313]

"Hi! I'm Chevy Club and you're not."


This is what I came here for. Let's have more humor and less "second amendment is best amendment" wank, whaddaya say, Internet?
 
2014-04-27 10:23:02 PM  

theprinceofwands: Doing what you believe to be right is the ONLY law that matters. Ever. It's how/why this nation exists, and is a requirement to name yourself among its citizens in my opinion.


No, that's not correct. The Constitution establishes a framework to enact change. The states provide a framework to enact change. Local governments? The same. You most decidedly do NOT have the right to decide what laws you will or will not obey. Let's say that I believe abortion is murder and I take it upon myself to rescue unborn children from their murderers. Does that give me the affirmative right to shoot up an abortion clinic? How about if I determine that I have an absolute right to defend every inch of my property and plant a minefield to keep people out?

Every right has a limit, and the reason is that we cannot all agree on what those rights should be. Therefore, we have reasonable limits that are duly ratified by people we choose to represent us, perhaps satisfying nobody but representing the best compromise we can make at the time. What you are suggesting is anarchy, that we can and should determine individually what laws we should obey. No society can endure under those conditions.
 
2014-04-27 10:24:42 PM  

theprinceofwands: You want me to sit forward, reach under my coat/shirt, free my sidearm, open the glove compartment (or in my case my gun safe), and safely stow my weapon WHILE driving??? I think the police and the NHTSA might have something to say about that. Never mind the fact that one should NEVER disarm until absolutely required by law as it creates a 'helpless zone' where you are open to harm.


Wow dude, a gun is not your identity.

 
2014-04-27 10:29:01 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: theprinceofwands: Doing what you believe to be right is the ONLY law that matters. Ever. It's how/why this nation exists, and is a requirement to name yourself among its citizens in my opinion.

No, that's not correct. The Constitution establishes a framework to enact change. The states provide a framework to enact change. Local governments? The same. You most decidedly do NOT have the right to decide what laws you will or will not obey. Let's say that I believe abortion is murder and I take it upon myself to rescue unborn children from their murderers. Does that give me the affirmative right to shoot up an abortion clinic? How about if I determine that I have an absolute right to defend every inch of my property and plant a minefield to keep people out?

Every right has a limit, and the reason is that we cannot all agree on what those rights should be. Therefore, we have reasonable limits that are duly ratified by people we choose to represent us, perhaps satisfying nobody but representing the best compromise we can make at the time. What you are suggesting is anarchy, that we can and should determine individually what laws we should obey. No society can endure under those conditions.


Disagree. Again, see previous examples. You cannot work 'within' a system when that system has been corrupted. You can only 'abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.' You'll notice the US wasn't formed by petitioning Parliament.

You are correct that people have differences of opinion. That's why no nation should ever consider itself sacred and/or immutable. Instead, we must be fluid, allowing the dynamic adjustment of state to accommodate shifts in citizen beliefs and preferences. If some people don't want firearms, for instance, they should be free to create a nation with that as a foundation. Meanwhile the rest of us should be free to continue to enjoy our freedoms in this regard. Compromise is merely the great destroyer, ensuring no one has a situation they can live with.
 
2014-04-27 10:30:26 PM  
eeehhhhh, maybe there should mandatory abortions for a couples first borne...Hear me out, much like the sand mandala, maybe it would prepare couples for how little everybody else cares about their slobbery, pants shiatting, sticky handed, squalling crotch fruit.
 
2014-04-27 10:30:32 PM  

Bear151556: theprinceofwands: You want me to sit forward, reach under my coat/shirt, free my sidearm, open the glove compartment (or in my case my gun safe), and safely stow my weapon WHILE driving??? I think the police and the NHTSA might have something to say about that. Never mind the fact that one should NEVER disarm until absolutely required by law as it creates a 'helpless zone' where you are open to harm.


Wow dude, a gun is not your identity.


You are correct. In fact, I don't even much like them.

The RIGHT to them, however, IS my identity. As an American citizen, and a free man.
 
2014-04-27 10:30:54 PM  

Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.


Yes, that's how you get a carry permit.

Nothing about this story appears to be related to the new law.

I have to assume that prior to the passing of the law, no was ever shot at a club/bar ever in Georgia.
 
2014-04-27 10:38:04 PM  

theprinceofwands: Bear151556: theprinceofwands: You want me to sit forward, reach under my coat/shirt, free my sidearm, open the glove compartment (or in my case my gun safe), and safely stow my weapon WHILE driving??? I think the police and the NHTSA might have something to say about that. Never mind the fact that one should NEVER disarm until absolutely required by law as it creates a 'helpless zone' where you are open to harm.


Wow dude, a gun is not your identity.

You are correct. In fact, I don't even much like them.

The RIGHT to them, however, IS my identity. As an American citizen, and a free man.


This solves a lot of logistical problems

www.gumcreekcustoms.com
 
2014-04-27 10:41:06 PM  

BravadoGT: theprinceofwands: Bear151556: theprinceofwands: You want me to sit forward, reach under my coat/shirt, free my sidearm, open the glove compartment (or in my case my gun safe), and safely stow my weapon WHILE driving??? I think the police and the NHTSA might have something to say about that. Never mind the fact that one should NEVER disarm until absolutely required by law as it creates a 'helpless zone' where you are open to harm.


Wow dude, a gun is not your identity.

You are correct. In fact, I don't even much like them.

The RIGHT to them, however, IS my identity. As an American citizen, and a free man.

This solves a lot of logistical problems

[www.gumcreekcustoms.com image 850x637]


While I am a big fan of Springfields, that still leaves it relatively plain view for any criminal, leading to the potential for theft.  And at $600 a pop, that's a pain in the ass.
 
2014-04-27 10:43:10 PM  

Pokey.Clyde: EvilEgg: My solution is they have to wear their permits like badges.

Kind of defeats the purpose of concealed carry, doesn't it?

/didn't think that one all the way through, did you?


I'm 100% against concealed carry. They should be visible. After all, isn't the wet dream wank fantasy that you'll use the gun to save the day instead of shoot yourself in the ass? Might as well make it visible so everyone knows you're a total badass, amirite????
 
2014-04-27 10:45:45 PM  

BravadoGT: theprinceofwands: Bear151556: theprinceofwands: You want me to sit forward, reach under my coat/shirt, free my sidearm, open the glove compartment (or in my case my gun safe), and safely stow my weapon WHILE driving??? I think the police and the NHTSA might have something to say about that. Never mind the fact that one should NEVER disarm until absolutely required by law as it creates a 'helpless zone' where you are open to harm.


Wow dude, a gun is not your identity.

You are correct. In fact, I don't even much like them.

The RIGHT to them, however, IS my identity. As an American citizen, and a free man.

This solves a lot of logistical problems

[www.gumcreekcustoms.com image 850x637]


Illegal in this state, but pretty darn cool.
 
2014-04-27 10:49:36 PM  
www.zinzins.net

This sucks. The founding fathers did not intend for our rights to limited like this. Screw this anti-nuclear-weapon legislation.

Everyone should have nuclear weapons. We would all be safer.
 
2014-04-27 10:51:59 PM  

OnlyM3: fusillade762 [TotalFark]

Has the law even gone into effect yet?
Subby is a typical ignorant. you can already legally carry in a bar in GA. Has been legal to do so for years.

The headline should be "Years after GA allows guns in bars, 1 person out of the hundreds libtards predicted got shot."

Same bullshiat as claiming 1 record high temp "proves" global warming.


A monkey jetting out ABC magnets through its ass onto a Frigidaire door would create a more cogent argument. I mean, "libtard?" That usage pretty much defines one as a knuckle-breathing mouth-dragger at this point. Try harder.
 
2014-04-27 10:58:01 PM  
I was going to ask why the hell anyone would need to walk around carrying a gun, not including cops and other professionals, but theprinceofwands answered it just fine. Dude, how often have you actually need to have "readiness for defense"? You don't think the phrase "never disarm until absolutely required by law" makes you sound the slightest bit unhinged? I have no problem with CCW or other gun ownership issues, but you sound like the potheads who say there is no ill effects from smoking weed. That may be true, but you are not helping.
 
2014-04-27 10:58:03 PM  
Adolf Oliver Nipples: I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Like road rage and DUIs. Only people without licenses are ever involved in those kinds of things.
 
2014-04-27 11:02:14 PM  

EvilEgg: My solution is they have to wear their permits like badges.


Heinlein had something like that in an early novel, Beyond this Horizon.  At one point a bartender says, "If you want me to serve you again, I'll have to ask for your badge."  The main character decides that in that case, it's probably time he headed home.
 
2014-04-27 11:07:53 PM  

TwistedFark: I'm 100% against concealed carry. They should be visible. After all, isn't the wet dream wank fantasy that you'll use the gun to save the day instead of shoot yourself in the ass? Might as well make it visible so everyone knows you're a total badass, amirite????


Not even close, dipstick. I do not have a CCW permit, and about the only time any of my guns leave the house is if I'm going to the range. And it has nothing to do with being a badass, you little troll. I've never pointed any kind of a gun (outside of a paintball gun as a teen) at anything living. And I hope I never have reason to. But keep on spewing your crap, Trolly McTroll.
 
2014-04-27 11:18:12 PM  
Responsible gun owner #58,203
 
2014-04-27 11:19:45 PM  

roc6783: I was going to ask why the hell anyone would need to walk around carrying a gun, not including cops and other professionals, but theprinceofwands answered it just fine. Dude, how often have you actually need to have "readiness for defense"? You don't think the phrase "never disarm until absolutely required by law" makes you sound the slightest bit unhinged? I have no problem with CCW or other gun ownership issues, but you sound like the potheads who say there is no ill effects from smoking weed. That may be true, but you are not helping.


Obama could be coming to knock down his door AT ANY MOMENT and force him to gay marry someone.
Got to be ready.
 
2014-04-27 11:29:20 PM  

flondrix: EvilEgg: My solution is they have to wear their permits like badges.

Heinlein had something like that in an early novel, Beyond this Horizon.  At one point a bartender says, "If you want me to serve you again, I'll have to ask for your badge."  The main character decides that in that case, it's probably time he headed home.


The opposite, the unarmed wore the "Brassard of Peace", meaning they were pussies, thus unarmed.  One of the few really dumb things in his early works.
 
2014-04-27 11:31:55 PM  
The "everyone is safe if everyone is armed" argument loses its appeal when you hear stories about people shooting each other of trivial arguments.
 
2014-04-27 11:34:21 PM  

roc6783: I was going to ask why the hell anyone would need to walk around carrying a gun, not including cops and other professionals, but theprinceofwands answered it just fine. Dude, how often have you actually need to have "readiness for defense"? You don't think the phrase "never disarm until absolutely required by law" makes you sound the slightest bit unhinged? I have no problem with CCW or other gun ownership issues, but you sound like the potheads who say there is no ill effects from smoking weed. That may be true, but you are not helping.


Outside of work reasons I've only had to draw a couple times...once to stop a mugging, and once due to an animal attack on girlfriend's dog. There was also one incident when I was younger that could have used a firearm, but I was too young to carry and made do with a sword I was lucky enough to have there. Not bad over 42 years of life. Fortunately I've always lived in fairly good areas.

However it's not just about the actual need, it's about knowing I'm prepared just in case. While crime & violence are fairly rare, they DO occur, and knowing I'm prepared to deal with it allows me to go about my business without worry. When I hear a sound at night I can investigate without fear. When things go crazy around me I never have to think 'oh no, what am I going to do if this gets bad'. It's already been taken care of by being responsible enough to prepare ahead of time.

Now, you're free to feel differently. You're simply not free to tell me how I 'should' feel, nor to keep me from taking these reasonable and perfectly safe precautions.
 
2014-04-27 11:41:29 PM  

HawgWild: theprinceofwands: Freedom to not be forced to purchase insurance or pay a fine.
Freedom to speak and/or assemble peacefully (without undue burden at least).
Freedom from unwarranted search & seizure.
Freedom from unjust detention without speedy trial.

That's a tax. Supreme Court says so. And I think we still have the 1st and 4th Amendments, as well as habeas corpus.

So ... yeah, no.


4th amendment died about 10 years ago broham
 
2014-04-27 11:57:24 PM  

HawgWild: theprinceofwands: Freedom to not be forced to purchase insurance or pay a fine.
Freedom to speak and/or assemble peacefully (without undue burden at least).
Freedom from unwarranted search & seizure.
Freedom from unjust detention without speedy trial.

That's a tax. Supreme Court says so. And I think we still have the 1st and 4th Amendments, as well as habeas corpus.

So ... yeah, no.



Oh and habeus corpus -> guantanamo bay? Seriously are you posting from 1995?
 
2014-04-28 12:00:53 AM  
Haven't read the comments, but I just want to say Rome, GA represent!

Glad we could make Fark.

/wish it wasn't for a shooting
 
2014-04-28 12:10:33 AM  

tjfly: Chicago.

That is all.


Absolutely, I lived there for 10 years, crime is practically nil.   right off  26th and wallace, very pleasant neighborhood.
 
2014-04-28 12:12:37 AM  
this entire thread is dildos
 
2014-04-28 12:43:07 AM  
Dimensio:

Do you expect reasoned and educated individuals to believe that a person who is prohibited for one of those reasons could not simply obtain a permit without a background check through the concealed gun show loophole?

I would expect that a reasoned and educated individual would know that Carry Permits are issued by the State, after they conduct a background check.

They are not issued at gun shows.

/I don't even know what a concealed gun show is.
 
2014-04-28 12:48:09 AM  
@princeofwands (sorry can't quote on phone) first, I am free to tell you how you should feel, just not free from the consequences of that speech. Second, if arms are determined to no longer be necessary to the security of the state, then would you agree that you no longer have a right to them as described in the 2nd Amendment? Especially if said determination was made through a national ratification process?
 
2014-04-28 12:48:12 AM  
Because nobody has ever been shot in a bar in Georgia, ever before, not once in over two centuries, right?
 
2014-04-28 12:52:29 AM  
Typical responsible Fark headline submitter.
 
2014-04-28 01:10:27 AM  
If you walk into a bar, you deserve everything you get, including that overpriced garbage you're drinking.

Same for your useless coffee shops!
 
2014-04-28 01:18:02 AM  

Terrible Old Man: If you walk into a bar, you deserve everything you get, including that overpriced garbage you're drinking.

Same for your useless coffee shops!


Hey, some people are trying to pick up drunk sluts.
 
2014-04-28 01:30:10 AM  
No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

Suuuuure it would.  Turn down the hyperbole dial a little.

No hyperbole whatsoever. In fact, there are a number of militias that have included this in their 'bright line' statements.

The "cold, dead hands" crowd are a bunch of phonies. If the government passed a law banning guns tomorrow there would be a very small number of holdouts. Acting tough is easy to do in the absence of any realistic chance that they will be put to the test. Put them to that test and they'll fold.

I'll put my money on 10-30 million active participants, with up to 150-200 million siding with them. Remember that ~85% of citizens object to even handgun bans, and that's what's responsible for ~75% of violence. As evidence I would remind you that many of us already joined the military, often during a time of war, demonstrating that we are fully prepared to kill or die for what we believe in.

Further, it wouldn't matter since a large percent of 'the state' would refuse to participate against citizens, rendering the need for active engagement irrelevant.

I have a hard time believing you typed that with a straight face.


Former military, highly intelligent, highly educated in related social science fields, focus on this and related issues for most of my professional life - I assure you I'm completely serious.

It seems your education skipped over the Bonus Army, Shay's Rebellion, the Whiskey Rebellion and at least dozen other instances of people who were just positive that their interpretation of the Constitution and their cause would rally the public and the military to their cause and that the government would fall like a house of cards.  Many of them died and all of them failed.
 
2014-04-28 01:32:43 AM  

lewismarktwo: Terrible Old Man: If you walk into a bar, you deserve everything you get, including that overpriced garbage you're drinking.

Same for your useless coffee shops!

Hey, some people are trying to pick up drunk sluts.


Which is what you deserve. We went over this.
 
2014-04-28 01:35:50 AM  

stan unusual: No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

Suuuuure it would.  Turn down the hyperbole dial a little.

No hyperbole whatsoever. In fact, there are a number of militias that have included this in their 'bright line' statements.

The "cold, dead hands" crowd are a bunch of phonies. If the government passed a law banning guns tomorrow there would be a very small number of holdouts. Acting tough is easy to do in the absence of any realistic chance that they will be put to the test. Put them to that test and they'll fold.

I'll put my money on 10-30 million active participants, with up to 150-200 million siding with them. Remember that ~85% of citizens object to even handgun bans, and that's what's responsible for ~75% of violence. As evidence I would remind you that many of us already joined the military, often during a time of war, demonstrating that we are fully prepared to kill or die for what we believe in.

Further, it wouldn't matter since a large percent of 'the state' would refuse to participate against citizens, rendering the need for active engagement irrelevant.

I have a hard time believing you typed that with a straight face.

Former military, highly intelligent, highly educated in related social science fields, focus on this and related issues for most of my professional life - I assure you I'm completely serious.

It seems your education skipped over the Bonus Army, Shay's Rebellion, the Whiskey Rebellion and at least dozen other instances of people who were just positive that their interpretation of the Constitution and their cause would rally the public and the military to their cause and that the government would fall like a house of cards.  Many of them died and all of them failed.


Sure, all of the ones you listed. That's why you listed them. There has been successful armed resistance against (even democratically elected) governments on American soil and many others throughout history. It's happening all the time. Obama even sends guns to people in other countries to fend off the despot du jour. Do you think he does that because it doesn't work?
 
2014-04-28 01:37:46 AM  

fnordest: Dimensio:

Do you expect reasoned and educated individuals to believe that a person who is prohibited for one of those reasons could not simply obtain a permit without a background check through the concealed gun show loophole?

I would expect that a reasoned and educated individual would know that Carry Permits are issued by the State, after they conduct a background check.

They are not issued at gun shows.

/I don't even know what a concealed gun show is.


A gun show with camouflage over the entrance?
 
2014-04-28 01:46:38 AM  
Wangiss:  Sure, all of the ones you listed. That's why you listed them. There has been successful armed resistance against (even democratically elected) governments on American soil and many others throughout history. It's happening all the time. Obama even sends guns to people in other countries to fend off the despot du jour. Do you think he does that because it doesn't work?

None of the listed rebellions were successful unless you count more deaths among the rebels than the military and a failure to generate the anticipated revolt within the military and the public as "success."   The closest any rebellion has come to that was the Confederacy and newsflash from 1865, they lost.
 
2014-04-28 02:25:20 AM  

ronaprhys: The new laws have nothing to do with this shooting.


And yet, instead of just saying that, OnlyM3 has to be a dick about it - which I suppose really should come as no surprise from a guy who has claimed in previous threads that the KKK & Nazis were "liberal."
 
2014-04-28 02:30:28 AM  
If concealed-carry is what requires the strong background checks (in some jurisdictions), why isn't open carry more legal?

I'm weird, since I'm in favor of relaxed gun laws in some ways and tighter laws in other ways. Needing a license to own a gun seems like mostly a good idea to me, but other laws like allowing guns in bars is just dumb.
 
2014-04-28 03:11:06 AM  

ronaprhys: BravadoGT: theprinceofwands: Bear151556: theprinceofwands: You want me to sit forward, reach under my coat/shirt, free my sidearm, open the glove compartment (or in my case my gun safe), and safely stow my weapon WHILE driving??? I think the police and the NHTSA might have something to say about that. Never mind the fact that one should NEVER disarm until absolutely required by law as it creates a 'helpless zone' where you are open to harm.


Wow dude, a gun is not your identity.

You are correct. In fact, I don't even much like them.

The RIGHT to them, however, IS my identity. As an American citizen, and a free man.

This solves a lot of logistical problems

[www.gumcreekcustoms.com image 850x637]

While I am a big fan of Springfields, that still leaves it relatively plain view for any criminal, leading to the potential for theft.  And at $600 a pop, that's a pain in the ass.


It's not just the loss of the value of the gun...if some asswipe stole one of my guns and shot somebody with it I'd feel at least partially responsible.

It's deadly shiat, you can't just leave guns lying around. Or in easy view through your driver's side window.
 
2014-04-28 03:23:56 AM  

ultraholland: this entire thread is dildos


Fark gun threads usually are.
 
2014-04-28 05:50:45 AM  

PainInTheASP: So the moral of the story is always be home by ten?


Yep. Except for Bert. Bert be home Blyleven.
 
2014-04-28 06:02:07 AM  
LOL.  Was it an AK47?

img577.imageshack.us

Just in case someone forgot to post this.

Please continue.
 
2014-04-28 06:42:53 AM  

wedun: The "everyone is safe if everyone is armed" argument loses its appeal when you hear stories about people shooting each other of trivial arguments.


20X as many shootings occur by criminals in Chicago every week.  Millions of legal gun owners go their entire lives without shooting anyone for any reason.

The statistics do not support your position.
 
2014-04-28 07:09:21 AM  
EvilEgg:

My solution is they have to wear their permits like badges.
Make them wear special clothes, so other people will know they have a gun.
And a cool hat.

4.bp.blogspot.com

And they only get 1 bullet.


news.kjosy.com
 
2014-04-28 07:56:33 AM  

roc6783: @princeofwands (sorry can't quote on phone) first, I am free to tell you how you should feel, just not free from the consequences of that speech. Second, if arms are determined to no longer be necessary to the security of the state, then would you agree that you no longer have a right to them as described in the 2nd Amendment? Especially if said determination was made through a national ratification process?


Fair enough, so long as we also establish that what you tell me has no inherent truth or necessity. It is nothing but words, same as any others.

Of course not, for several reasons.

1. It is not only the Federal Constitution which enumerates the right to arms. Most states also have provisions, many with no mention of a free state or similar. There are further statutory guarantees as well.

2. The initial suggestion for the Amendment was:

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person. "

Notice the lack of dependency? Further, the basis of the Amendment is the English Bill of Rights upon which Blackstone comments:

"The fifth and last auxiliary right of the subject, that I shall at present mention, is that of having arms for their defence, suitable to their condition and degree, and such as are allowed by law. Which is also declared by the same statute I W. & M. st.2. c.2. and is indeed a public allowance, under due restrictions, of the natural right of resistance and self-preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression. "

3. US v. Cruikshank points out that the Constitution doesn't grant the right to arms, and that right is not dependent upon that document. It merely enumerates an already existing and unassailable right.

4. As previously noted, just because some body says something is to be allowed or perceived as ______, doesn't mean that is the correct or moral interpretation. It is incumbent upon every individual to become learned enough to reach reasonable decision of his own with regards to matters which may affect him, and to abide only his/her conscious as final arbiter in all things.
 
2014-04-28 08:01:35 AM  

Sgt Otter: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

It depends on the state.  Some states have unrestricted carry (no permit or application required).  The Shall-Issue states have some sort of licensing requirement.  It can be as simple as filling out a form, up to a minimum number of hours of a certified gun safety course.  There was a stink where some people were getting reciprocity CCW permits in one state, where it was something like you only had to watch an online safety video (which could be fast-forwarded) and that was it.

May-Issue states you have to demonstrate to your local local enforcement agency why you need a permit (hazardous job, crazy stalker ex, Politically connected, big party donor, friend of county supervisor, etc.)


FTFY
 
2014-04-28 08:04:18 AM  

OnlyM3: Mugato [TotalFark]

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.
Why is it not at all surprising that the guy that supports the government restricting the First also hates the Second.

// Also not surprised you lie about the facts. A carry permit has nothing to do with gun-shows.


WTF are you going on about?
 
2014-04-28 08:05:49 AM  

stan unusual: No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

Suuuuure it would.  Turn down the hyperbole dial a little.

No hyperbole whatsoever. In fact, there are a number of militias that have included this in their 'bright line' statements.

The "cold, dead hands" crowd are a bunch of phonies. If the government passed a law banning guns tomorrow there would be a very small number of holdouts. Acting tough is easy to do in the absence of any realistic chance that they will be put to the test. Put them to that test and they'll fold.

I'll put my money on 10-30 million active participants, with up to 150-200 million siding with them. Remember that ~85% of citizens object to even handgun bans, and that's what's responsible for ~75% of violence. As evidence I would remind you that many of us already joined the military, often during a time of war, demonstrating that we are fully prepared to kill or die for what we believe in.

Further, it wouldn't matter since a large percent of 'the state' would refuse to participate against citizens, rendering the need for active engagement irrelevant.

I have a hard time believing you typed that with a straight face.

Former military, highly intelligent, highly educated in related social science fields, focus on this and related issues for most of my professional life - I assure you I'm completely serious.

It seems your education skipped over the Bonus Army, Shay's Rebellion, the Whiskey Rebellion and at least dozen other instances of people who were just positive that their interpretation of the Constitution and their cause would rally the public and the military to their cause and that the government would fall like a house of cards.  Many of them died and all of them failed.


You're talking about mostly fairly minor rebellions, not all-out revolutions, and nothing with the kind of popular support and centrality of culture firearm ownership enjoys in the US (we're talking 80-100 million owners at least, and ~85%+ support).

But if you want to talk successful revolutions:

French Revolution, US Revolution, Haitian slave rebellion, Cuban revolution, greek war of independence, the february revolution...I can go all day since one of my degrees was history/poli-sci.
 
2014-04-28 08:20:26 AM  

moothemagiccow: Buy all the guns you want, just stop shooting people


I must not have got the memo, I never heard that I could start shooting people.

Not much information in that article, initially: we don't have anything to say, updated to : we'll make a statement later. then to: if you have any information please contact us. So stretching to attach the incident to a law that has been passed but doesn't go into effect for another couple of months sounds a lot like bed wetting. Chicago is now issuing CCW permits and we've just had a weekend, how many people got shot there? How many of the offenders were from Texas? How many were legally carrying a gun?
 
2014-04-28 08:21:16 AM  

ZAZ: The law goes into effect July 1, according to CNN.


so basically, December 15th
 
2014-04-28 08:36:23 AM  
well: in a thorough manner

regulate: to make rules or laws that control (something)

militia: generally is an army or other fighting force that is composed of non-professional fighters; citizens of a nation or subjects of a state or government that can be called upon to enter a combat situation, as opposed to a professional force of regular, full-time military personnel.


Altogether now:

Make thorough rules or laws that control a fighting force that is composed of citizens subject of a state or government that can be called upon to enter a combat situation.
 
2014-04-28 08:43:26 AM  
"First" subby? Hardly
 
2014-04-28 08:46:15 AM  

mrshowrules: well: in a thorough manner

regulate: to make rules or laws that control (something)

militia: generally is an army or other fighting force that is composed of non-professional fighters; citizens of a nation or subjects of a state or government that can be called upon to enter a combat situation, as opposed to a professional force of regular, full-time military personnel.


Altogether now:

Make thorough rules or laws that control a fighting force that is composed of citizens subject of a state or government that can be called upon to enter a combat situation.


c1.staticflickr.com

He doesn't use citations
He takes things out of context
He is easily confused by late 17th century sentence structure and syntax
He thinks a militia is the same thing as an army
He still doesn't understand what "regulated" means in this context
 
2014-04-28 08:51:00 AM  

Myria: If concealed-carry is what requires the strong background checks (in some jurisdictions), why isn't open carry more legal?

I'm weird, since I'm in favor of relaxed gun laws in some ways and tighter laws in other ways. Needing a license to own a gun seems like mostly a good idea to me, but other laws like allowing guns in bars is just dumb.


Some tittay bars here in Philly have metal detectors and permit or not don't allow guns in the place. Maybe it is not the booze but the women causing the problems?
 
2014-04-28 09:07:59 AM  

trekkiecougar: GORDON: Did the dude who got shot have it coming?  A lot of people in the world are figuratively begging to be shot, don't you think?

No! The shooter got kicked out of the club and was pissed off about it, so he got a gun (probably from his car) and went back in and started shooting randomly. The victim who died - who had just moved down here from PA a couple of weeks ago - was an innocent bystander, shot in the back of the head, fell with his hands still in his jeans pockets..........

/victim was my daughter's girlfriend's cousin.....the family is devastated.......


That was about 10 times more informative than the article. Sad but had nothing to do with the law subby would like to blame for it.
 
2014-04-28 09:08:22 AM  

Frank N Stein: mrshowrules: well: in a thorough manner

regulate: to make rules or laws that control (something)

militia: generally is an army or other fighting force that is composed of non-professional fighters; citizens of a nation or subjects of a state or government that can be called upon to enter a combat situation, as opposed to a professional force of regular, full-time military personnel.


Altogether now:

Make thorough rules or laws that control a fighting force that is composed of citizens subject of a state or government that can be called upon to enter a combat situation.

[c1.staticflickr.com image 640x496]

He doesn't use citations
He takes things out of context
He is easily confused by late 17th century sentence structure and syntax
He thinks a militia is the same thing as an army
He still doesn't understand what "regulated" means in this context


Which of my definitions would you challenge and request a citation for?  The post as a whole expresses an opinion (of common sense I believe) so your counterpoints don't really apply.
 
2014-04-28 09:31:26 AM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: theprinceofwands: Flappyhead: theprinceofwands: bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.

No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

Suuuuure it would.  Turn down the hyperbole dial a little.

No hyperbole whatsoever. In fact, there are a number of militias that have included this in their 'bright line' statements.

The "cold, dead hands" crowd are a bunch of phonies. If the government passed a law banning guns tomorrow there would be a very small number of holdouts. Acting tough is easy to do in the absence of any realistic chance that they will be put to the test. Put them to that test and they'll fold.


You mean like the estimated 300,000 in Connecticut? Or the 1,000,000 + in New York? Most of whom aren't really the "Cold Dead Hands" type, just normal people who are fed up with the Nanny State and the Transnational Progressive agenda.
 
2014-04-28 09:46:20 AM  

mrshowrules: well: in a thorough manner

regulate: to make rules or laws that control (something)

militia: generally is an army or other fighting force that is composed of non-professional fighters; citizens of a nation or subjects of a state or government that can be called upon to enter a combat situation, as opposed to a professional force of regular, full-time military personnel.


Altogether now:

Make thorough rules or laws that control a fighting force that is composed of citizens subject of a state or government that can be called upon to enter a combat situation.


Except that's not what the Supreme Court says anymore.  As of 2008, the right to keep and bear arms is an individual right to possess a firearm for self-defense and any other lawful purpose.  It has nothing to do with a militia in any way shape or form.

Sorry.
 
2014-04-28 09:48:37 AM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: theprinceofwands: More likely it would have been government agents murdering people, like in so many other 'standoff' situations. Not that it was a clear violation situation...that one was tenuous at best.

Murdering people? Aiming weapons at law enforcement officers properly executing their duties is a crime. If they were killed under those circumstances it wouldn't qualify as murder under any definition.

Bundy is wrong, he has been wrong for a long time, and he will continue to be wrong until he starts obeying the law. That the law hasn't been enforced for a long time doesn't mean that he wasn't breaking it. We are a nation of laws. An armed mob preventing enforcement is not consistent with that.


This hasn't been a "nation of laws" for a long time. When the enforcement of "Laws" is totally arbitrary and having money or fame or political connections means you are immune from the law or laws are passed that only apply to select groups then the law is immoral. The Department of "Just Us" has done more to undermine "respect for the law" than either Obama or Bush. There was a time in this country when people mostly followed the law because it was the right thing to do but that was lots of years and thousands of Laws ago. Now it is merely a matter of people keeping their heads down and hoping not to be noticed and singled out as examples. In Nature animals that keep their heads down get eaten.
 
2014-04-28 09:53:32 AM  

ex-nuke: There was a time in this country when people mostly followed the law because it was the right thing to do


There's been unjust laws since the founding of the country.
 
2014-04-28 10:06:44 AM  

jehovahs witness protection: theprinceofwands: bojon: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. I had to take a class for a couple hours, not have a felony on my record, I guess the same training as any cop has to take.

I had to give fingerprints, photographs, and references (which they check), and undergo a NICS check. Someone who gives the police everything they need to identify them in the event of a crime isn't likely to commit any.

Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.

No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

You mean like obamacare?
Yes...his BS is unconstitutional too.


I've got five people who disagree with you and I'm pretty sure they overrule you.
 
2014-04-28 10:06:52 AM  
Just because one crazy person shoots up a bar doesn't mean we should ban ALL crazy people from shooting up bars.
 
2014-04-28 10:10:39 AM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.


Not really. In Georgia, you go down to the courthouse and hand them $75, then go over to the police department and get fingerprinted. They check to make sure you have no felony record, and a couple months later you get your CCW. No training requirement.

Not that CCWs have anything to do with bar shootings; the kind of people who shoot other people in bars couldn't give a crap about the law on concealed carry.
 
2014-04-28 10:22:29 AM  

LazyMedia: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. In Georgia, you go down to the courthouse and hand them $75, then go over to the police department and get fingerprinted. They check to make sure you have no felony record, and a couple months later you get your CCW. No training requirement.

Not that CCWs have anything to do with bar shootings; the kind of people who shoot other people in bars couldn't give a crap about the law on concealed carry.


So in what way is a one-step no verification process even remotely close to the multiple step process you just laid out?
 
2014-04-28 10:30:12 AM  

theprinceofwands: No hyperbole whatsoever. In fact, there are a number of militias that have included this in their 'bright line' statements.


There is never going to be "another" armed revolution in the United States. Never. No matter how much the gun nuts masturbate to the thought of some sort of an uprising against their own government, it is not going to happen, no matter what the government does.

Enjoy your guns, I enjoy mine. But don't pretend that you're preparing for some day when you and your buddies have to take up arms against the United States military. So have another Budweiser, go to the range and pray that someone breaks into your house so you get to legally shoot a real person like a good gun nut. Because the revolution isn't happening.
 
2014-04-28 11:22:54 AM  

stan unusual: No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

Suuuuure it would.  Turn down the hyperbole dial a little.

No hyperbole whatsoever. In fact, there are a number of militias that have included this in their 'bright line' statements.

The "cold, dead hands" crowd are a bunch of phonies. If the government passed a law banning guns tomorrow there would be a very small number of holdouts. Acting tough is easy to do in the absence of any realistic chance that they will be put to the test. Put them to that test and they'll fold.

I'll put my money on 10-30 million active participants, with up to 150-200 million siding with them. Remember that ~85% of citizens object to even handgun bans, and that's what's responsible for ~75% of violence. As evidence I would remind you that many of us already joined the military, often during a time of war, demonstrating that we are fully prepared to kill or die for what we believe in.

Further, it wouldn't matter since a large percent of 'the state' would refuse to participate against citizens, rendering the need for active engagement irrelevant.

I have a hard time believing you typed that with a straight face.

Former military, highly intelligent, highly educated in related social science fields, focus on this and related issues for most of my professional life - I assure you I'm completely serious.

It seems your education skipped over the Bonus Army, Shay's Rebellion, the Whiskey Rebellion and at least dozen other instances of people who were just positive that their interpretation of the Constitution and their cause would rally the public and the military to their cause and that the government would fall like a house of cards.  Many of them died and all of them failed.


There are literally tens, if not hundreds of thousands of "holdouts" just in new york and Connecticut right now...    People are refusing to register their "assault" rifles....     

Do people actually think that everyone across the US is going to wimp out and just say "here you go uncle sam" when they can't even get the guns registered in the liberal bastions of NY and Conn?
 
2014-04-28 11:24:48 AM  

Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.


Know how i know you have no farking clue what you are talking about?
 
2014-04-28 11:26:12 AM  

nhdjoseywales: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Know how i know you have no farking clue what you are talking about?


No, I don't, sorry.
 
2014-04-28 11:27:09 AM  
Typical gun owner.
 
2014-04-28 11:31:42 AM  

mrshowrules: well: in a thorough manner

regulate: to make rules or laws that control (something)

militia: generally is an army or other fighting force that is composed of non-professional fighters; citizens of a nation or subjects of a state or government that can be called upon to enter a combat situation, as opposed to a professional force of regular, full-time military personnel.


Altogether now:

Make thorough rules or laws that control a fighting force that is composed of citizens subject of a state or government that can be called upon to enter a combat situation.


Wrong.

See also:
2.To adjust to a particular specification or requirement:  regulate temperature.
3.To adjust (a mechanism) for accurate and proper functioning.
4.To put or maintain in order:  regulate one's eating habits.
 

Well regulated = well practiced.  Well adjusted.  Well maintained. 

Militia is made of the people..  for the people... by the people... not by the Govt. or for the Govt.

Also, watch this vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KydSAKywdE
 
2014-04-28 11:36:30 AM  

Mugato: nhdjoseywales: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Know how i know you have no farking clue what you are talking about?

No, I don't, sorry.



First off because anyone who thinks you can go pick up a gun for $50 is delusional.

The cheapest of cheap POS guns are going to set you back more than $50....    more like $200....  and most are more like $500.
 
2014-04-28 11:38:30 AM  

Mr.BobDobalita: Mugato: nhdjoseywales: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Know how i know you have no farking clue what you are talking about?

No, I don't, sorry.


First off because anyone who thinks you can go pick up a gun for $50 is delusional.

The cheapest of cheap POS guns are going to set you back more than $50....    more like $200....  and most are more like $500.



Oh I see. You didn't read the thread.
 
2014-04-28 11:44:17 AM  

Mugato: theprinceofwands: No hyperbole whatsoever. In fact, there are a number of militias that have included this in their 'bright line' statements.

There is never going to be "another"armed revolution in the United States. Never. No matter how much the gun nuts masturbate to the thought of some sort of an uprising against their own government, it is not going to happen, no matter what the government does.


Did you watch the same Cliven Bundy shiat I did?

There won't be a coup or a revolutionary take over, that's for certain.  I won't discount the possibility of a regional armed insurrection, though.
 
2014-04-28 11:49:22 AM  

theprinceofwands: But if you want to talk successful revolutions:

French Revolution, US Revolution, Haitian slave rebellion, Cuban revolution, greek war of independence, the february revolution...I can go all day since one of my degrees was history/poli-sci.


None of which had anything to do with the government taking away guns, which is the premise of your mythical revolution in modern America.
 
2014-04-28 12:07:01 PM  
Princeofwands:  You're talking about mostly fairly minor rebellions, not all-out revolutions, and nothing with the kind of popular support and centrality of culture firearm ownership enjoys in the US (we're talking 80-100 million owners at least, and ~85%+ support).

But if you want to talk successful revolutions:

French Revolution, US Revolution, Haitian slave rebellion, Cuban revolution, greek war of independence, the february revolution...I can go all day since one of my degrees was history/poli-sci.


And all of the minor rebellions I mentioned were led by folks, who like you, were certain that they were the vanguard of a successful revolution, and all of them were wrong in their predictions.  Sorry to spoil your gun absolutist wankfest with a dose of reality but total disarmament isn't the goal of gun regulation supporters and even the most ardent Second Amendment jurist Justice Scalia doesn't believe that the Second Amendment grants an unlimited personal right to carry or possess whatever firearms you want wherever you want.  Successful revolutions in the twenty-first century require either the tacit approval of or actual participation of the majority of the nation's military as well as widespread popular support (collapse of the Soviet Union and the failed counter coup there, the DDR, Poland, Czechoslovakia and the rest of the former Warsaw Pact nations,Tunisia) or military intervention from another country- (Libya, for example).  There is little to no chance of the bulk f the U.S. military to defect to your militia fantasy (see Australia's response to stricter gun regulation) and absolutely none of foreign military intervention in the U.S. for it.
 
2014-04-28 12:17:00 PM  

redmid17: LazyMedia: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. In Georgia, you go down to the courthouse and hand them $75, then go over to the police department and get fingerprinted. They check to make sure you have no felony record, and a couple months later you get your CCW. No training requirement.

Not that CCWs have anything to do with bar shootings; the kind of people who shoot other people in bars couldn't give a crap about the law on concealed carry.

So in what way is a one-step no verification process even remotely close to the multiple step process you just laid out?


Well, your scenario is basically a fantasy. No unlicensed collector is selling $50 handguns at a gun show. If you're a licensed gun dealer (as 90+ percent of the tables at gun shows are), you have to do the same background check at a gun show that you do at your store. The few collectors that are there with tables are generally selling expensive vintage guns, because renting a table isn't cheap. About the only $50 guns out there are garbage derringers made out of pot metal, and those are mostly sold by pawn shops. Which do background checks.

Getting a CCW in Georgia is slightly more onerous than just buying a gun, but it's not like getting a handgun permit in somewhere like New York. And the more people have them, the more irresponsible tools are going to have them.
 
2014-04-28 12:24:19 PM  

LazyMedia: redmid17: LazyMedia: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not really. In Georgia, you go down to the courthouse and hand them $75, then go over to the police department and get fingerprinted. They check to make sure you have no felony record, and a couple months later you get your CCW. No training requirement.

Not that CCWs have anything to do with bar shootings; the kind of people who shoot other people in bars couldn't give a crap about the law on concealed carry.

So in what way is a one-step no verification process even remotely close to the multiple step process you just laid out?

Well, your scenario is basically a fantasy. No unlicensed collector is selling $50 handguns at a gun show. If you're a licensed gun dealer (as 90+ percent of the tables at gun shows are), you have to do the same background check at a gun show that you do at your store. The few collectors that are there with tables are generally selling expensive vintage guns, because renting a table isn't cheap. About the only $50 guns out there are garbage derringers made out of pot metal, and those are mostly sold by pawn shops. Which do background checks.

Getting a CCW in Georgia is slightly more onerous than just buying a gun, but it's not like getting a handgun permit in somewhere like New York. And the more people have them, the more irresponsible tools are going to have them.


That's not my scenario hoss, and you didn't answer my question at all.
 
2014-04-28 12:27:58 PM  

LazyMedia: No unlicensed collector is selling $50 handguns at a gun show


No one said anything about $50 handguns.
 
2014-04-28 12:39:20 PM  

Mr.BobDobalita: Mugato: nhdjoseywales: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Know how i know you have no farking clue what you are talking about?

No, I don't, sorry.


First off because anyone who thinks you can go pick up a gun for $50 is delusional.

The cheapest of cheap POS guns are going to set you back more than $50....    more like $200....  and most are more like $500.


He's saying you can get a gun permitat a gun show for 50 bucks. So, he's even more delusional than you think.

/the dreaded gun show loophole rears its ugly Putin-like head yet again!
 
2014-04-28 12:54:05 PM  

theprinceofwands: stoli n coke: i have to ask, what do CCW holders hope to accomplish with a law like this?

Not even figuring in the intoxication factor, bars are often crowded, it's loud, it's dark, sometimes there's pushing and shoving. If they were suddenly faced with the "bad guy with a gun" scenario they get excited over, it seems they'd be more likely to shoot someone who had nothing to do with it. FFS, even Old West Saloons didn't want firearms inside.

It's the same reason guns in movie theaters is a horrible idea.

Well for me it's a big pain in the butt to have to disarm every time I walk into someplace 21 and over. It can create panic when people see me pulling the gun out in the parking lot. It opens me to having it stolen if my vehicle is broken into. It creates an opportunity for an accident (like an accidental discharge).

Further, none of what you say has any factual, statistical backing. There are almost no accidental shootings from permit holders. A few, certainly, but its very VERY rare. It's simply not a reasonable issue. What's more, there have almost never been any significant events from lawful carry of any kind, only the rare random accident. Nearly all crime is, and always has been, from criminals intent on committing the crimes.


If you know you're going to a bar, just leave the thing at home in the safe.  What part of responsible gun ownership involves you carrying while drinking anyway?
 
2014-04-28 01:00:17 PM  

theorellior: [www.mindhuestudio.com image 600x337]


Gun shops are a bit much for that. Change that to "shooting ranges."
 
2014-04-28 01:31:49 PM  

nhdjoseywales: Know how i know you have no farking clue what you are talking about?


You read his username?
 
2014-04-28 01:56:19 PM  

theorellior: Everyone sure loves their murder tools. Gotta have one with me at every moment, just in case there's a murder to be done.


So what kind of car do you drive???
 
2014-04-28 02:02:17 PM  

thisisarepeat: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Getting a CCW permit is a lot more than forking $50 over to someone at a gun show.

Not a hell of a lot more.  I would like to see what the failure rate is for people that take the course to get the CHL.  If it is under 10% then they are just wasting everybody's time and they cancel the requirement.


Is that why you had to repeat 1st grade?
 
2014-04-28 02:19:18 PM  

Pokey.Clyde: nhdjoseywales: Know how i know you have no farking clue what you are talking about?

You read his username?


I didn't say anything that wasn't true. It's not my fault some moron can't read the thread before posting.
 
2014-04-28 02:27:21 PM  

tulax: theprinceofwands: stoli n coke: i have to ask, what do CCW holders hope to accomplish with a law like this?

Not even figuring in the intoxication factor, bars are often crowded, it's loud, it's dark, sometimes there's pushing and shoving. If they were suddenly faced with the "bad guy with a gun" scenario they get excited over, it seems they'd be more likely to shoot someone who had nothing to do with it. FFS, even Old West Saloons didn't want firearms inside.

It's the same reason guns in movie theaters is a horrible idea.

Well for me it's a big pain in the butt to have to disarm every time I walk into someplace 21 and over. It can create panic when people see me pulling the gun out in the parking lot. It opens me to having it stolen if my vehicle is broken into. It creates an opportunity for an accident (like an accidental discharge).

Further, none of what you say has any factual, statistical backing. There are almost no accidental shootings from permit holders. A few, certainly, but its very VERY rare. It's simply not a reasonable issue. What's more, there have almost never been any significant events from lawful carry of any kind, only the rare random accident. Nearly all crime is, and always has been, from criminals intent on committing the crimes.

If you know you're going to a bar, just leave the thing at home in the safe.  What part of responsible gun ownership involves you carrying while drinking anyway?


As concealed carry laws become more permissive and permits become cheaper, the old "permit holders are more responsible" logic goes out the window.  In many states any non felon can get a carry permit for around $150 and an afternoon's time commitment. The other thing about bars is this:  Even if YOU are sober, and responsible, and totally in control that doesn't mean that the guy next to you is.  Unless we, as a society, are saying that I can carry a gun into a bar and shoot any UNARMED person that gets out of hand, this is a recipe for murder.  Finally, a four hour gun safety class does not make anyone a trained law enforcement officer, or even a good shooter.  Knowing when not to pull the trigger is half the battle, and anyone that can't be bothered to put their gun away before they start drinking obviously hasn't mastered common sense - let alone life and death crisis response.
 
2014-04-28 02:35:21 PM  

IvyLady: As concealed carry laws become more permissive and permits become cheaper, the old "permit holders are more responsible" logic goes out the window.  In many states any non felon can get a carry permit for around $150 and an afternoon's time commitment. The other thing about bars is this:  Even if YOU are sober, and responsible, and totally in control that doesn't mean that the guy next to you is.  Unless we, as a society, are saying that I can carry a gun into a bar and shoot any UNARMED person that gets out of hand, this is a recipe for murder.  Finally, a four hour gun safety class does not make anyone a trained law enforcement officer, or even a good shooter.  Knowing when not to pull the trigger is half the battle, and anyone that can't be bothered to put their gun away before they start drinking obviously hasn't mastered common sense - let alone life and death crisis response


Oh my god!  You are absolutely right!

No wait.  That's not it.  Retarded.  I meant to say retarded.

We have 20 years of statistics to back up the propensity of a concealed carrier to commit a violent crime.  The simple fact is that you are more likely to be shot by a police officer than a concealed carrier.  In fact, a concealed weapons licensee is less likely to commit crimes of any kind than any other segment of the population.  It's almost like they are law abiding citizens.  All 20-30 million of them.

You people can fantasize all you want about the "blood in the streets" scenario.  It simply does not happen.
 
2014-04-28 03:14:06 PM  
Right, because concealed carry permits used to be very limited in most jurisdictions- you had to have a good reason to have one. That's why, generally, the folks who held them had more training and were more responsible than your average yahoo.  Not so with more permissive regimes.
 
2014-04-28 03:18:00 PM  

IvyLady: Right, because concealed carry permits used to be very limited in most jurisdictions- you had to have a good reason to have one. That's why, generally, the folks who held them had more training and were more responsible than your average yahoo.  Not so with more permissive regimes.


It's impressive to keep repeating the same largely disproven or unprovable talking points in the face of overwhelming contrary evidence.
 
2014-04-28 03:34:04 PM  

Mugato: I didn't say anything that wasn't true. It's not my fault some moron can't read the thread before posting.


You most certainly did. $50 at a gun show most definitely does not get you a CCW permit.
 
2014-04-28 03:40:02 PM  

Pokey.Clyde: Mugato: I didn't say anything that wasn't true. It's not my fault some moron can't read the thread before posting.

You most certainly did. $50 at a gun show most definitely does not get you a CCW permit.


Speak for your own state.
 
2014-04-28 03:46:21 PM  

Mugato: Pokey.Clyde: Mugato: I didn't say anything that wasn't true. It's not my fault some moron can't read the thread before posting.

You most certainly did. $50 at a gun show most definitely does not get you a CCW permit.

Speak for your own state.


Were you able to walk into a gun show in your state, pay $50, and walk out with a CCW permit?
 
2014-04-28 03:51:40 PM  

mrshowrules: well: in a thorough manner

regulate: to make rules or laws that control (something)

militia: generally is an army or other fighting force that is composed of non-professional fighters; citizens of a nation or subjects of a state or government that can be called upon to enter a combat situation, as opposed to a professional force of regular, full-time military personnel.


Altogether now:

Make thorough rules or laws that control a fighting force that is composed of citizens subject of a state or government that can be called upon to enter a combat situation.


You are incorrect, as academics proved and the supreme court affirmed. Well regulated, as used at the time of writing the Constitution, meant, practiced or trained. That's it. Period. There is no question or debate on this point, except by people who have no clue what they're talking about. Thanks for playing though.
 
2014-04-28 03:55:07 PM  

Mugato: theprinceofwands: No hyperbole whatsoever. In fact, there are a number of militias that have included this in their 'bright line' statements.

There is never going to be "another" armed revolution in the United States. Never. No matter how much the gun nuts masturbate to the thought of some sort of an uprising against their own government, it is not going to happen, no matter what the government does.

Enjoy your guns, I enjoy mine. But don't pretend that you're preparing for some day when you and your buddies have to take up arms against the United States military. So have another Budweiser, go to the range and pray that someone breaks into your house so you get to legally shoot a real person like a good gun nut. Because the revolution isn't happening.


And when proved incapable of winning the debate, ad hominem?
 
2014-04-28 04:00:10 PM  

Flappyhead: theprinceofwands: But if you want to talk successful revolutions:

French Revolution, US Revolution, Haitian slave rebellion, Cuban revolution, greek war of independence, the february revolution...I can go all day since one of my degrees was history/poli-sci.

None of which had anything to do with the government taking away guns, which is the premise of your mythical revolution in modern America.


No revolution has, as far as I know. That's not the point. The point is that when an issue is serious enough, and shared by enough people, they can (and HAVE) revolt against the government and form a new one.

Remember also that I stated clearly it would never happen because politicians aren't stupid enough to push us that far, knowing that there are 225,000,000-275,000,000 people in the country who disagree with such a course, and may take punitive actions (even if only electorally, or financially). I merely pointed out that if it ever DID happen it would cause open revolt, which it would. For god's sake, paying tax on grazing is enough to get some people worked up, and this is just a tad more important and universal, no?
 
2014-04-28 04:00:34 PM  

theprinceofwands: ad hominem


What ad hominem, I was describing two good friends of mine.
 
2014-04-28 04:05:36 PM  

stan unusual: Princeofwands:  You're talking about mostly fairly minor rebellions, not all-out revolutions, and nothing with the kind of popular support and centrality of culture firearm ownership enjoys in the US (we're talking 80-100 million owners at least, and ~85%+ support).

But if you want to talk successful revolutions:

French Revolution, US Revolution, Haitian slave rebellion, Cuban revolution, greek war of independence, the february revolution...I can go all day since one of my degrees was history/poli-sci.

And all of the minor rebellions I mentioned were led by folks, who like you, were certain that they were the vanguard of a successful revolution, and all of them were wrong in their predictions.  Sorry to spoil your gun absolutist wankfest with a dose of reality but total disarmament isn't the goal of gun regulation supporters and even the most ardent Second Amendment jurist Justice Scalia doesn't believe that the Second Amendment grants an unlimited personal right to carry or possess whatever firearms you want wherever you want.  Successful revolutions in the twenty-first century require either the tacit approval of or actual participation of the majority of the nation's military as well as widespread popular support (collapse of the Soviet Union and the failed counter coup there, the DDR, Poland, Czechoslovakia and the rest of the former Warsaw Pact nations,Tunisia) or military intervention from another country- (Libya, for example).  There is little to no chance of the bulk f the U.S. military to defect to your militia fantasy (see Australia's response to stricter gun regulation) and absolutely none of foreign military intervention in the U.S. for it.


Actually you're incorrect. Most revolutions occur with less than 50% popular support, and less than 10% active participation. See - all of the examples you mentioned, as well as all I mentioned.

Further, having been in the military and had these discussions at length with those around me (nearly all of whom were officers since I was stationed at comnavsurflant), the bulk of the military would NOT engage against its citizens in such an event. Study after study conducted by the military has shown this. Most would rebel, or at least refuse to engage. At least in the long term. This is shown true when looking at other nations whose militaries chose similarly, like many that you mentioned. The military, especially in the US, is merely citizens, not a separate entity, and they would almost certainly not engage in a domestic suppression so widescale.
 
2014-04-28 04:07:33 PM  

redmid17: Mugato: Pokey.Clyde: Mugato: I didn't say anything that wasn't true. It's not my fault some moron can't read the thread before posting.

You most certainly did. $50 at a gun show most definitely does not get you a CCW permit.

Speak for your own state.

Were you able to walk into a gun show in your state, pay $50, and walk out with a CCW permit?


No, I had to send for it of course but it gave me all I needed to get one

When I got it, it was only $50, my bad.
 
2014-04-28 04:10:05 PM  

tulax: theprinceofwands: stoli n coke: i have to ask, what do CCW holders hope to accomplish with a law like this?

Not even figuring in the intoxication factor, bars are often crowded, it's loud, it's dark, sometimes there's pushing and shoving. If they were suddenly faced with the "bad guy with a gun" scenario they get excited over, it seems they'd be more likely to shoot someone who had nothing to do with it. FFS, even Old West Saloons didn't want firearms inside.

It's the same reason guns in movie theaters is a horrible idea.

Well for me it's a big pain in the butt to have to disarm every time I walk into someplace 21 and over. It can create panic when people see me pulling the gun out in the parking lot. It opens me to having it stolen if my vehicle is broken into. It creates an opportunity for an accident (like an accidental discharge).

Further, none of what you say has any factual, statistical backing. There are almost no accidental shootings from permit holders. A few, certainly, but its very VERY rare. It's simply not a reasonable issue. What's more, there have almost never been any significant events from lawful carry of any kind, only the rare random accident. Nearly all crime is, and always has been, from criminals intent on committing the crimes.

If you know you're going to a bar, just leave the thing at home in the safe.  What part of responsible gun ownership involves you carrying while drinking anyway?


Leaving it at home removes the protection/preparedness it offers. It removes the POINT of having it in the first place. While not all permit holders carry universally, many do and there are fairly strong arguments for why this is preferable.

I never said I'd be drinking, I said going into places off limits to persons under 21. For instance, stop by Red Robin for a burger and the only open seats are in the restricted area. However, there is nothing in any way irresponsible about carrying while having a drink, so long as one is not drinking to the point of impairment. Even then I can make a fairly solid argument for the continuing right to defense. That's why so many states allow carry while intoxicated.
 
2014-04-28 04:11:31 PM  

Mugato: redmid17: Mugato: Pokey.Clyde: Mugato: I didn't say anything that wasn't true. It's not my fault some moron can't read the thread before posting.

You most certainly did. $50 at a gun show most definitely does not get you a CCW permit.

Speak for your own state.

Were you able to walk into a gun show in your state, pay $50, and walk out with a CCW permit?

No, I had to send for it of course but it gave me all I needed to get one

When I got it, it was only $50, my bad.


Pretty sweet how you omitted all the other steps like the background check, fingerprinting. The fact you tried to correct the cost and failed says a lot too.

I can understand preferring or wanting more stringent requirements for carrying with regards to training, but it doesn't need you mean to outright lie about it.
 
2014-04-28 04:15:52 PM  

IvyLady: tulax: theprinceofwands: stoli n coke: i have to ask, what do CCW holders hope to accomplish with a law like this?

Not even figuring in the intoxication factor, bars are often crowded, it's loud, it's dark, sometimes there's pushing and shoving. If they were suddenly faced with the "bad guy with a gun" scenario they get excited over, it seems they'd be more likely to shoot someone who had nothing to do with it. FFS, even Old West Saloons didn't want firearms inside.

It's the same reason guns in movie theaters is a horrible idea.

Well for me it's a big pain in the butt to have to disarm every time I walk into someplace 21 and over. It can create panic when people see me pulling the gun out in the parking lot. It opens me to having it stolen if my vehicle is broken into. It creates an opportunity for an accident (like an accidental discharge).

Further, none of what you say has any factual, statistical backing. There are almost no accidental shootings from permit holders. A few, certainly, but its very VERY rare. It's simply not a reasonable issue. What's more, there have almost never been any significant events from lawful carry of any kind, only the rare random accident. Nearly all crime is, and always has been, from criminals intent on committing the crimes.

If you know you're going to a bar, just leave the thing at home in the safe.  What part of responsible gun ownership involves you carrying while drinking anyway?

As concealed carry laws become more permissive and permits become cheaper, the old "permit holders are more responsible" logic goes out the window.  In many states any non felon can get a carry permit for around $150 and an afternoon's time commitment. The other thing about bars is this:  Even if YOU are sober, and responsible, and totally in control that doesn't mean that the guy next to you is.  Unless we, as a society, are saying that I can carry a gun into a bar and shoot any UNARMED person that gets out of hand, this is a recipe for murder.   ...


I believe you are correct on the first part, but wrong on the second and third parts.

In many states all you actually need is to not have lost your rights...no permit or other factors exist. In MANY others you just need to pay the $50 and pass the basic background verification. Only a few require larger sums or any real process beyond that.

On the last part, you have already been proved incorrect through hundreds of years of data collection. The fact is that there is no elevated incident of crime/violence/accident from any form of allowance with regards to weapons, nor any reduced negative impacts from any form of gun control, as shown by repeated studies and analysis by Harvard, the CDC, the NAS, etc.

What's more, there remains the question of inherent rights (not to mention enumerated rights), which many would argue trump your baseless fears. In other words, regardless of potential dangers, the fact remains that many embrace the idea of individual over collective.
 
2014-04-28 04:18:07 PM  

IvyLady: Right, because concealed carry permits used to be very limited in most jurisdictions- you had to have a good reason to have one. That's why, generally, the folks who held them had more training and were more responsible than your average yahoo.  Not so with more permissive regimes.


Even though I agree with the overall sentiment of your earlier statement, he is correct that over the last 60 years of increasing permissiveness and saturation of concealed carry not only have things not gotten worse, they've continued to get better.

I think your dilution argument holds, but only when taken to the extreme...FAR FAR FAR beyond where it currently exists, despite almost universal allowance for carry.
 
2014-04-28 04:18:29 PM  

redmid17: Pretty sweet how you omitted all the other steps like the background check, fingerprinting. The fact you tried to correct the cost and failed says a lot too.


Yes, I said when I got it it was $50 and now it's $59, holy shiat what a liar I am. If you read my post I mentioned the class and not being a felon. WTF point are you trying to make? My original point is that none of that is going to make anyone more responsible or less likely to shoot someone. People in this thread were acting like having a CC gives one 00 status,
 
2014-04-28 04:26:38 PM  

theprinceofwands: However, there is nothing in any way irresponsible about carrying while having a drink, so long as one is not drinking to the point of impairment. Even then I can make a fairly solid argument for the continuing right to defense. That's why so many states allow carry while intoxicated.


Seriously? Which ones?

I can't see how that makes any sense... You're not allowed to operate a motor vehicle while intoxicated, so I certainly wouldn't think you should be allowed to operate a farking gun while intoxicated! Or, are you just saying you can "carry" it, but not actually use it? In which case, it would seem completely useless to carry it at all...
 
2014-04-28 04:30:47 PM  

Mugato: redmid17: Pretty sweet how you omitted all the other steps like the background check, fingerprinting. The fact you tried to correct the cost and failed says a lot too.

Yes, I said when I got it it was $50 and now it's $59, holy shiat what a liar I am. If you read my post I mentioned the class and not being a felon. WTF point are you trying to make? My original point is that none of that is going to make anyone more responsible or less likely to shoot someone. People in this thread were acting like having a CC gives one 00 status,


Keep moving those goalposts, jefe. If you had wanted to make that point, you wouldn't have lied in the first place.
 
2014-04-28 04:41:42 PM  

redmid17: Keep moving those goalposts, jefe. If you had wanted to make that point, you wouldn't have lied in the first place.


Dude, everything I said was consistent. Either show my where I lied or get off my dick.
 
2014-04-28 04:43:38 PM  

Mugato: redmid17: Keep moving those goalposts, jefe. If you had wanted to make that point, you wouldn't have lied in the first place.

Dude, everything I said was consistent. Either show my where I lied or get off my dick.


Your Boobies in the thread, which a dozen people called bullshiat on?

http://www.fark.com/comments/8238195/90541998#c90541998
 
2014-04-28 04:44:56 PM  

Bullseyed: Liberals never let facts get in the way of their fascism.


Liberal fascism? What the fark does that even mean?
 
2014-04-28 04:44:57 PM  

RobSeace: theprinceofwands: However, there is nothing in any way irresponsible about carrying while having a drink, so long as one is not drinking to the point of impairment. Even then I can make a fairly solid argument for the continuing right to defense. That's why so many states allow carry while intoxicated.

Seriously? Which ones?

I can't see how that makes any sense... You're not allowed to operate a motor vehicle while intoxicated, so I certainly wouldn't think you should be allowed to operate a farking gun while intoxicated! Or, are you just saying you can "carry" it, but not actually use it? In which case, it would seem completely useless to carry it at all...


So you want people to just leave their gun on the ground when they start drinking? Little Bobby-Sue could pick it up and accidentally kill his entire family!

Think of the children you heartless bastard.
 
2014-04-28 04:46:29 PM  

redmid17: Mugato: redmid17: Keep moving those goalposts, jefe. If you had wanted to make that point, you wouldn't have lied in the first place.

Dude, everything I said was consistent. Either show my where I lied or get off my dick.

Your Boobies in the thread, which a dozen people called bullshiat on?

http://www.fark.com/comments/8238195/90541998#c90541998


...and?
 
2014-04-28 04:50:08 PM  

Mugato: redmid17: Mugato: redmid17: Keep moving those goalposts, jefe. If you had wanted to make that point, you wouldn't have lied in the first place.

Dude, everything I said was consistent. Either show my where I lied or get off my dick.

Your Boobies in the thread, which a dozen people called bullshiat on?

http://www.fark.com/comments/8238195/90541998#c90541998

...and?


"So what" or "and?" are always great responses when someone points out where you went wrong. Yeoman's work at trolling the thread.
 
2014-04-28 05:00:37 PM  

RobSeace: theprinceofwands: However, there is nothing in any way irresponsible about carrying while having a drink, so long as one is not drinking to the point of impairment. Even then I can make a fairly solid argument for the continuing right to defense. That's why so many states allow carry while intoxicated.

Seriously? Which ones?

I can't see how that makes any sense... You're not allowed to operate a motor vehicle while intoxicated, so I certainly wouldn't think you should be allowed to operate a farking gun while intoxicated! Or, are you just saying you can "carry" it, but not actually use it? In which case, it would seem completely useless to carry it at all...


Almost half of them. Washington for instance. I have the list on my home system, but no access to it from here.

It's legal to use a gun for defense in all 50 states. You can ALWAYS defend yourself (providing you meet the burden for self-defense). It's just not always legal to carry it (which is obviously as bad, or worse, than the other way around from a logic standpoint).
 
2014-04-28 05:05:53 PM  

Bob Robert: Bullseyed: Liberals never let facts get in the way of their fascism.

Liberal fascism? What the fark does that even mean?


I think it's where a 14-year old girl should be allowed to decide to get an abortion at will without parental consent because she can do whatever she wants with her body, but a 30-year old veteran who successfully undergoes a criminal and psychological background check has no reason to own a firearm for self-defense even if he is purchasing it to protect his own life and those of his family.
 
2014-04-28 05:07:41 PM  
princeofwands: Actually you're incorrect. Most revolutions occur with less than 50% popular support, and less than 10% active participation. See - all of the examples you mentioned, as well as all I mentioned.

"Widespread" does not equal >50% and you ignore what those percentages include the military.

Further, having been in the military and had these discussions at length with those around me (nearly all of whom were officers since I was stationed at comnavsurflant), the bulk of the military would NOT engage against its citizens in such an event. Study after study conducted by the military has shown this. Most would rebel, or at least refuse to engage. At least in the long term. This is shown true when looking at other nations whose militaries chose similarly, like many that you mentioned. The military, especially in the US, is merely citizens, not a separate entity, and they would almost certainly not engage in a domestic suppression so widescale.

Billy Mitchell used Martin B-1's to provide recon for arial bombing of UMW strikers in West Virginia.  George Patton lead an attack on veterans in the Bonus Army at the direct order of Douglas Mac Arthur.  The Colorado National Guard participated in the Ludlow Massacre.  The US military  conducted the internment of Japanese Americans in WWII.  The Ohio National Guard fired on protesters at Kent State. The willingness of both National Guard and regular military units to fire on their fellow citizens  is well established once they are labeled as law breakers threatening law and order.

Most importantly, your scenario depends upon a paranoid fantasy- that the goal of gun laws is total disarmament of the public. The goal of gun laws have been regulating the type of weapons permissible for civilian ownership, keeping weapons out of the hands of the mentally ill, felons and domestic abusers and finally regulating where and when weapons may be possessed and limiting or outright banning the carrying of concealed weapons all of which Justice Scalia expressly excluded from the prohibition set forth in the Second Amendment in part III of his opinion in D.C. v Heller: Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.  For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis of the scope of the Second Amendment here nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.He goes on to acknowledge in the next paragraph that neither does the Second Amendment  extend to prohibition of the possession or use of "dangerous or unusual weapons."
 
2014-04-28 05:20:39 PM  

AngryDragon: but a 30-year old veteran who successfully undergoes a criminal and psychological background check has no reason to own a firearm for self-defense even if he is purchasing it to protect his own life and those of his family.


Who was claiming this? Was it your strawman you have to use when making arguments because you can't use logic? Good job throwing in veteran and family though, great appeals to emotion.
 
2014-04-28 05:27:19 PM  

theprinceofwands: RobSeace: theprinceofwands: However, there is nothing in any way irresponsible about carrying while having a drink, so long as one is not drinking to the point of impairment. Even then I can make a fairly solid argument for the continuing right to defense. That's why so many states allow carry while intoxicated.

Seriously? Which ones?

I can't see how that makes any sense... You're not allowed to operate a motor vehicle while intoxicated, so I certainly wouldn't think you should be allowed to operate a farking gun while intoxicated! Or, are you just saying you can "carry" it, but not actually use it? In which case, it would seem completely useless to carry it at all...

Almost half of them. Washington for instance. I have the list on my home system, but no access to it from here.

It's legal to use a gun for defense in all 50 states. You can ALWAYS defend yourself (providing you meet the burden for self-defense). It's just not always legal to carry it (which is obviously as bad, or worse, than the other way around from a logic standpoint).


Yes, but the point is that a truly intoxicated person is no longer thinking clearly and their senses are dulled... What they might think is a threat might not be one in reality... Or, it might be a real threat, but in their drunken state they can't hit the target, but instead hit a bunch of innocent bystanders... Or, since they're drunk, maybe they just think it's a really funny idea to pull out the gun and point it at random people... Drunk people aren't known for their great thinking skills...

It just sounds to me like a really, really horrible idea to allow drunk people to walk around armed with a gun... I'm not talking about "had a drink or two"; I'm talking about drunk... If places really allow that, well I'm surprised, and I hope to avoid being around drunk people in those states...
 
2014-04-28 06:08:25 PM  

theprinceofwands: Flappyhead: theprinceofwands: But if you want to talk successful revolutions:

French Revolution, US Revolution, Haitian slave rebellion, Cuban revolution, greek war of independence, the february revolution...I can go all day since one of my degrees was history/poli-sci.

None of which had anything to do with the government taking away guns, which is the premise of your mythical revolution in modern America.

No revolution has, as far as I know. That's not the point. The point is that when an issue is serious enough, and shared by enough people, they can (and HAVE) revolt against the government and form a new one.


Which in the case you were describing was...

theprinceofwands:
No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

Your entire premise was people being required to carry insurance for a firearm would result in immediate, total revolution.
 
2014-04-28 06:16:46 PM  

Bob Robert: AngryDragon: but a 30-year old veteran who successfully undergoes a criminal and psychological background check has no reason to own a firearm for self-defense even if he is purchasing it to protect his own life and those of his family.

Who was claiming this? Was it your strawman you have to use when making arguments because you can't use logic? Good job throwing in veteran and family though, great appeals to emotion.


Really?  The liberal Democratic plank in the US is basically pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, anti-gun.  It's really not a stretch unless you're being willfully blind.
 
2014-04-28 06:26:51 PM  

AngryDragon: Really? The liberal Democratic plank in the US is basically pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, anti-gun. It's really not a stretch unless you're being willfully blind.


Why not just go full-retard and say "anti-life"?

How many real life people have you really encountered actually arguing in favor of women have more abortions? Like they're a great thing we should be encouraging, maybe even making mandatory!

Also, total "anti-gun" stances are pretty rare... Yes, some of them want to basically repeal the Second Amendment, but I wouldn't say it's a major Democratic platform... Lots of them want more gun control, yes, but very few want to completely ban all guns... And, yes, many of their ideas for gun control are really, really stupid and pointless and do nothing at all to stop gun voilence and crime... So, yes, by all means complain about their stupidity, but there's no need to be disingenuous and imply they want to ban all guns while forcing all mothers to abort their unborn children...
 
2014-04-28 06:31:36 PM  

RobSeace: theprinceofwands: RobSeace: theprinceofwands: However, there is nothing in any way irresponsible about carrying while having a drink, so long as one is not drinking to the point of impairment. Even then I can make a fairly solid argument for the continuing right to defense. That's why so many states allow carry while intoxicated.

Seriously? Which ones?

I can't see how that makes any sense... You're not allowed to operate a motor vehicle while intoxicated, so I certainly wouldn't think you should be allowed to operate a farking gun while intoxicated! Or, are you just saying you can "carry" it, but not actually use it? In which case, it would seem completely useless to carry it at all...

Almost half of them. Washington for instance. I have the list on my home system, but no access to it from here.

It's legal to use a gun for defense in all 50 states. You can ALWAYS defend yourself (providing you meet the burden for self-defense). It's just not always legal to carry it (which is obviously as bad, or worse, than the other way around from a logic standpoint).

Yes, but the point is that a truly intoxicated person is no longer thinking clearly and their senses are dulled... What they might think is a threat might not be one in reality... Or, it might be a real threat, but in their drunken state they can't hit the target, but instead hit a bunch of innocent bystanders... Or, since they're drunk, maybe they just think it's a really funny idea to pull out the gun and point it at random people... Drunk people aren't known for their great thinking skills...

It just sounds to me like a really, really horrible idea to allow drunk people to walk around armed with a gun... I'm not talking about "had a drink or two"; I'm talking about drunk... If places really allow that, well I'm surprised, and I hope to avoid being around drunk people in those states...


Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on your view), it doesn't matter. The law doesn't require an ACTUAL threat to use self defense. It merely requires a perceived threat on the part of the actor. So long as 12 people say 'it would have been reasonable to feel threatened', self-defense is authorized.

I agree that it'd be dangerous for completely wiped people, but completely wiped people aren't able or willing to obey laws anyway (or even comprehend them), and therefore the laws themselves accomplish nothing. It all comes down to basic competence and responsibility, neither of which can ever be tested for.

What it hinges on is a basic concept: can you do anything not explicitly forbidden by law, or can you only do what is explicitly allowed by law? If you are in the first mindset then in roughly half the states you can be drunk with a gun because there is no law forbidding it. If you are in the second mindset then you cannot carry and drink anywhere because there is no law explicitly allowing it. Fortunately, the US utilizes the first mindset in legal matters (usually). Most important to this discussion is knowing that there is no significant correlation regarding this factor, rendering such laws irrelevant anyway.
 
2014-04-28 06:35:28 PM  

stan unusual: princeofwands: Actually you're incorrect. Most revolutions occur with less than 50% popular support, and less than 10% active participation. See - all of the examples you mentioned, as well as all I mentioned.

"Widespread" does not equal >50% and you ignore what those percentages include the military.

Further, having been in the military and had these discussions at length with those around me (nearly all of whom were officers since I was stationed at comnavsurflant), the bulk of the military would NOT engage against its citizens in such an event. Study after study conducted by the military has shown this. Most would rebel, or at least refuse to engage. At least in the long term. This is shown true when looking at other nations whose militaries chose similarly, like many that you mentioned. The military, especially in the US, is merely citizens, not a separate entity, and they would almost certainly not engage in a domestic suppression so widescale.

Billy Mitchell used Martin B-1's to provide recon for arial bombing of UMW strikers in West Virginia.  George Patton lead an attack on veterans in the Bonus Army at the direct order of Douglas Mac Arthur.  The Colorado National Guard participated in the Ludlow Massacre.  The US military  conducted the internment of Japanese Americans in WWII.  The Ohio National Guard fired on protesters at Kent State. The willingness of both National Guard and regular military units to fire on their fellow citizens  is well established once they are labeled as law breakers threatening law and order.

Most importantly, your scenario depends upon a paranoid fantasy- that the goal of gun laws is total disarmament of the public. The goal of gun laws have been regulating the type of weapons permissible for civilian ownership, keeping weapons out of the hands of the mentally ill, felons and domestic abusers and finally regulating where and when weapons may be possessed and limiting or outright banning the carrying of concealed weapons al ...


Oh I'm well aware that it happens. In the American revolution a large number of English patriots actively resisted as well. However, there are numerous factors that make such acts unsustainable, or unwise at least, in the long term. This is all beyond the point of this thread however.

We disagree on your second point. The goal of MANY anti-gun nazis IS total disarmament (at least effectively). Many are completely open on this issue. There are probably far more who are moderate, however, as you suggest. That doesn't change the reality of the others however. This too, however, isn't relevant to the topic.

I appreciate the rational discourse however. 8-)
 
2014-04-28 06:40:07 PM  

Flappyhead: theprinceofwands: Flappyhead: theprinceofwands: But if you want to talk successful revolutions:

French Revolution, US Revolution, Haitian slave rebellion, Cuban revolution, greek war of independence, the february revolution...I can go all day since one of my degrees was history/poli-sci.

None of which had anything to do with the government taking away guns, which is the premise of your mythical revolution in modern America.

No revolution has, as far as I know. That's not the point. The point is that when an issue is serious enough, and shared by enough people, they can (and HAVE) revolt against the government and form a new one.

Which in the case you were describing was...

theprinceofwands:
No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.

Your entire premise was people being required to carry insurance for a firearm would result in immediate, total revolution.


If it somehow passed muster (which it wouldn't, due to aforementioned 14th amendment issues), then yes. People would rally and draw a bright line. Again, the government likely wouldn't cross it. 'Revolution' doesn't require firing weapons at people however. Organizing widespread strikes, refusing to pay taxes, and pursuing removal of officials are all valid methods.
 
2014-04-28 07:19:32 PM  

AngryDragon: Bob Robert: AngryDragon: but a 30-year old veteran who successfully undergoes a criminal and psychological background check has no reason to own a firearm for self-defense even if he is purchasing it to protect his own life and those of his family.

Who was claiming this? Was it your strawman you have to use when making arguments because you can't use logic? Good job throwing in veteran and family though, great appeals to emotion.

Really?  The liberal Democratic plank in the US is basically pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, anti-gun.  It's really not a stretch unless you're being willfully blind.



Too little effort in your trolling. "It's not a stretch to go from restrictions on gun ownership to complete and total federal bans" that is the scare tactic you need to remind yourself every time you go vote. What a scary concept.
 
2014-04-28 07:50:46 PM  

Mugato: nhdjoseywales: Mugato: Adolf Oliver Nipples: and statistics have shown that permit holders are far less likely than the general population to commit violent crimes with guns

Yeah, giving $50 to some guy at a gun show makes you a responsible gun owner.

Know how i know you have no farking clue what you are talking about?

No, I don't, sorry.


I'm willing to wager my home and car you didn't hand a guy $50 and get a gun permit at a gun show. I excitedly await your evidence. Oh wait, you don't have any because either you don't understand the problem with saying "X" when you mean "Y" or you are just a liar. Maybe some of both?
 
2014-04-28 07:53:55 PM  

nhdjoseywales: 'm willing to wager my home and car you didn't hand a guy $50 and get a gun permit at a gun show. I excitedly await your evidence. Oh wait, you don't have any because either you don't understand the problem with saying "X" when you mean "Y" or you are just a liar. Maybe some of both?


Just read the Goddamned thread.

Jesus you people are tiresome.
 
2014-04-28 07:55:50 PM  

RobSeace: AngryDragon: Really? The liberal Democratic plank in the US is basically pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, anti-gun. It's really not a stretch unless you're being willfully blind.

Why not just go full-retard and say "anti-life"?

How many real life people have you really encountered actually arguing in favor of women have more abortions? Like they're a great thing we should be encouraging, maybe even making mandatory!

Also, total "anti-gun" stances are pretty rare... Yes, some of them want to basically repeal the Second Amendment, but I wouldn't say it's a major Democratic platform... Lots of them want more gun control, yes, but very few want to completely ban all guns... And, yes, many of their ideas for gun control are really, really stupid and pointless and do nothing at all to stop gun voilence and crime... So, yes, by all means complain about their stupidity, but there's no need to be disingenuous and imply they want to ban all guns while forcing all mothers to abort their unborn children...


I don't care about abortion in any way.  I do resent the hypocrisy that supports abortion because a woman can do with her body as she pleases, but denigrates firearms ownership which is me protecting my person as I please.

It's hypocritical.
 
2014-04-28 08:11:40 PM  
theprinceofwands:

If it somehow passed muster (which it wouldn't, due to aforementioned 14th amendment issues), then yes. People would rally and draw a bright line. Again, the government likely wouldn't cross it. 'Revolution' doesn't require firing weapons at people however. Organizing widespread strikes, refusing to pay taxes, and pursuing removal of officials are all valid methods.

If you keep moving those goalposts you're going to wind up walking into traffic.
 
2014-04-28 08:34:09 PM  

Flappyhead: theprinceofwands:

If it somehow passed muster (which it wouldn't, due to aforementioned 14th amendment issues), then yes. People would rally and draw a bright line. Again, the government likely wouldn't cross it. 'Revolution' doesn't require firing weapons at people however. Organizing widespread strikes, refusing to pay taxes, and pursuing removal of officials are all valid methods.

If you keep moving those goalposts you're going to wind up walking into traffic.


Nice attempted distraction, but I have moved nothing.
 
2014-04-28 09:30:57 PM  

theprinceofwands: Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on your view), it doesn't matter. The law doesn't require an ACTUAL threat to use self defense. It merely requires a perceived threat on the part of the actor. So long as 12 people say 'it would have been reasonable to feel threatened', self-defense is authorized.


Yeah, but would a "reasonable" person be thinking like someone who is drunk? If a drunk person pulled a gun on a random person because they thought they looked like satan, would a reasonable person find that a real threat?

AngryDragon: I don't care about abortion in any way. I do resent the hypocrisy that supports abortion because a woman can do with her body as she pleases, but denigrates firearms ownership which is me protecting my person as I please.


I do too... I'm generally liberal in my ideology, but I'm a pretty firm supporter of the constitution, including the second amendment... I think it's theoretically possible some restrictions might be useful, like universal background checks, but yeah I'll lean towards the pro-gun side more than the anti-gun side most of the time...

I just don't think you need to invent strawmen to make your point... It's not valid to say all liberals are "anti-gun" and "pro-abortion"...
 
2014-04-28 09:42:00 PM  

Mugato: nhdjoseywales: 'm willing to wager my home and car you didn't hand a guy $50 and get a gun permit at a gun show. I excitedly await your evidence. Oh wait, you don't have any because either you don't understand the problem with saying "X" when you mean "Y" or you are just a liar. Maybe some of both?

Just read the Goddamned thread.

Jesus you people are tiresome.


Seems like I underestimated. 13 and counting
 
2014-04-28 10:12:12 PM  

theprinceofwands:

Nice attempted distraction, but I have moved nothing.

You what's nice about slapping a color on someone?  It makes it easier to find their posts in a large thread.  See you started with this

theprinceofwands: bojon:
Add in a 50K insurance policy to be on the safe side.

No requirements for insurance can be held lawful/constitutional. Attempts to require it would result in immediate, total revolution.


Your response to me on this matter was

No hyperbole whatsoever. In fact, there are a number of militias that have included this in their 'bright line' statements.

And

I'll put my money on 10-30 million active participants, with up to 150-200 million siding with them. Remember that ~85% of citizens object to even handgun bans, and that's what's responsible for ~75% of violence. As evidence I would remind you that many of us already joined the military, often during a time of war, demonstrating that we are fully prepared to kill or die for what we believe in.

When people began pointing out how silly this was(with historical events to support it) you started on about the French Revolution and other violent overthrows of oppressive leaders.  When it's shown that this has nothing to do with your original statement all of a sudden it's

'Revolution' doesn't require firing weapons at people however. Organizing widespread strikes, refusing to pay taxes, and pursuing removal of officials are all valid methods.

Your approach changes every time your position is challenged.  That's moving the goalposts.
 
2014-04-29 02:45:46 AM  

TwistedFark: Pokey.Clyde: EvilEgg: My solution is they have to wear their permits like badges.

Kind of defeats the purpose of concealed carry, doesn't it?

/didn't think that one all the way through, did you?

I'm 100% against concealed carry. They should be visible. After all, isn't the wet dream wank fantasy that you'll use the gun to save the day instead of shoot yourself in the ass? Might as well make it visible so everyone knows you're a total badass, amirite????


Good post.
(if you are willing to ignore the fact that you dont have a god-damned clue what you are talking about.. and it wasnt near as clever as you thought it was...)
 
2014-04-29 05:30:11 AM  

AngryDragon: 20X as many shootings occur by criminals in Chicago every week. Millions of legal gun owners go their entire lives without shooting anyone for any reason.The statistics do not support your position.


So you're saying that for every old white guy who shoots a  42 year old father in a movie theatre for texting with his cell phone during the previews, there are twenty times as many "criminals in Chicago" who kill people, therefore everyone in society would be safer if everyone was armed?

I am intrigued by this line of reasoning.
 
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