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(Hypable)   Will Danaerys sway the slaves of Meereen? Will Jaime undertake Cersei's quest? Where are Littlefinger and Sansa headed to? Find out tonight in Oathkeeper at 9PM ET on HBO. It's your Official Game of Thrones Discussion Thread   (hypable.com) divider line 216
    More: Cool, Cersei, 9PM ET, Sansa, Game of Thrones, Meereen, Khal Drogo, Tyrion  
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354 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 27 Apr 2014 at 8:30 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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kab
2014-04-28 07:09:59 PM  

stickindamud: Is anyone else getting bored with Danaerys and her quest to free slaves and then make them part of her army. Every week it's the same thing.


I was getting bored with Theo's current plight.   Fortunately, he was a no-show this week.
 
2014-04-28 07:39:02 PM  

stickindamud: Plus, how is she feeding all these freed slaves?


Why do you think they needed to free move slaves?

/soylent Meereen is people
 
2014-04-28 09:17:46 PM  
Also, why wouldn't Tywin, since he's well aware of  Danaerys and the danger her dragons possess, send someone to at least attempt to kill one or two before they grow larger?
 
2014-04-28 09:26:04 PM  

Will-Mun: Not to harp on  Brienne, cause I love me some Brienne, but has she actually been able to successfully keep to even one Oath?

I guess she did bring Jaime back to kings landing (mostly) intact... But that didn't get the Stark Girls free.


What do you think of Brienne in the show?  (I'm assuming you've read the books, because there's nothing lovable about the GoT Brienne.)

I found ASOIAF Brienne barely tollerable, so GoT Brienne is completely annoying for me.  I dread the time the show will spend on her hunt for Sansa.

In the books, she is somewhat sympathetic.  She doesn't fit in with what's expected of women in a society with very strict gender roles.  So many of her plans go to shiat even when there's no obvious actions she could have taken to get any better outcome.

In the books, when she reaches Kings Landing with Jaime and Sansa is already gone, you can understand the fire that burns in her, the quest for her honor, to uphold her oath the Catelyn.

In the show, I find the idea of Brienne going off to find Sansa a joke.  It's silly.  How long have they been back in KL?  At a week or two.  And all that time, does she do or say anything about her oath?  Is there any indication she said anything to Jaime, about his oath to Catelyn?

How do you feel about Brinne on the show?
 
2014-04-28 09:54:37 PM  

mcmnky: Will-Mun: Not to harp on  Brienne, cause I love me some Brienne, but has she actually been able to successfully keep to even one Oath?

I guess she did bring Jaime back to kings landing (mostly) intact... But that didn't get the Stark Girls free.

What do you think of Brienne in the show?  (I'm assuming you've read the books, because there's nothing lovable about the GoT Brienne.)

I found ASOIAF Brienne barely tollerable, so GoT Brienne is completely annoying for me.  I dread the time the show will spend on her hunt for Sansa.

In the books, she is somewhat sympathetic.  She doesn't fit in with what's expected of women in a society with very strict gender roles.  So many of her plans go to shiat even when there's no obvious actions she could have taken to get any better outcome.

In the books, when she reaches Kings Landing with Jaime and Sansa is already gone, you can understand the fire that burns in her, the quest for her honor, to uphold her oath the Catelyn.

In the show, I find the idea of Brienne going off to find Sansa a joke.  It's silly.  How long have they been back in KL?  At a week or two.  And all that time, does she do or say anything about her oath?  Is there any indication she said anything to Jaime, about his oath to Catelyn?

How do you feel about Brinne on the show?


In the show, when she and Jaime get back, Sansa is already married to Tyrion and Catelyn's dead.  What exactly is she supposed to do at that point?

She's leaving now, not because of her oath to Catelyn, but because Jaime has tasked her with it.
 
2014-04-28 10:15:06 PM  
Lots of comparison to Robert Jordan.  At least Martin didn't ask his crack dealer to name the characters.

/nine-eve?
//eegween?
///randalthor?
////Crazy Pills!
 
2014-04-28 10:25:43 PM  
bborchar:

In the show, when she and Jaime get back, Sansa is already married to Tyrion and Catelyn's dead.  What exactly is she supposed to do at that point?

She's leaving now, not because of her oath to Catelyn, but because Jaime has tasked her with it.


She could have done something, which would have been better than the nothing she did.

If she pushed Jaime on the issue, what does he do?  "My hand is tied--KL is Tywin's world." So she goes to Tywin, and what would he do? "As Tyrion's wife, her place is by his side.  We're her family now."  So then she goes to Tyrion, and he reiterates Tywin's message.  "Perhaps when it's safer to travel we can visit the Tullys."

So the result is the same, in that Sansa is left in KL until the wedding.  But we learn a little about Brienne and her sense of honor.  But Brienne in the show has no honor.  She is an utterly unlikable character.  It is also a lost opportunity to show us something about the Lannisters.  Jaime made a promise on his family's behalf.  A promise they cannot keep.  How do they handle that?

As you say, she goes after Sansa because of Jaime, not her oath to Catelyn.  Why shouldn't we expect that as soon as she's out of sight of Kings Landing she'll find some other, new cause to pledge her allegiance?
 
2014-04-28 10:56:23 PM  

mcmnky: bborchar:

In the show, when she and Jaime get back, Sansa is already married to Tyrion and Catelyn's dead.  What exactly is she supposed to do at that point?

She's leaving now, not because of her oath to Catelyn, but because Jaime has tasked her with it.

She could have done something, which would have been better than the nothing she did.

If she pushed Jaime on the issue, what does he do?  "My hand is tied--KL is Tywin's world." So she goes to Tywin, and what would he do? "As Tyrion's wife, her place is by his side.  We're her family now."  So then she goes to Tyrion, and he reiterates Tywin's message.  "Perhaps when it's safer to travel we can visit the Tullys."

So the result is the same, in that Sansa is left in KL until the wedding.  But we learn a little about Brienne and her sense of honor.  But Brienne in the show has no honor.  She is an utterly unlikable character.  It is also a lost opportunity to show us something about the Lannisters.  Jaime made a promise on his family's behalf.  A promise they cannot keep.  How do they handle that?

As you say, she goes after Sansa because of Jaime, not her oath to Catelyn.  Why shouldn't we expect that as soon as she's out of sight of Kings Landing she'll find some other, new cause to pledge her allegiance?


Catelyn's dead; it's the sort of thing that absolves oaths. It's not as if Brienne would have been able to 'steal' Sansa away from the most powerful family in King's Landing, in any case. Brienne came back as Jaime's charge, not the other way around...she didn't have the standing to make and exchange.
 
2014-04-28 11:31:20 PM  

bborchar: mcmnky: bborchar:

In the show, when she and Jaime get back, Sansa is already married to Tyrion and Catelyn's dead.  What exactly is she supposed to do at that point?

She's leaving now, not because of her oath to Catelyn, but because Jaime has tasked her with it.

She could have done something, which would have been better than the nothing she did.

If she pushed Jaime on the issue, what does he do?  "My hand is tied--KL is Tywin's world." So she goes to Tywin, and what would he do? "As Tyrion's wife, her place is by his side.  We're her family now."  So then she goes to Tyrion, and he reiterates Tywin's message.  "Perhaps when it's safer to travel we can visit the Tullys."

So the result is the same, in that Sansa is left in KL until the wedding.  But we learn a little about Brienne and her sense of honor.  But Brienne in the show has no honor.  She is an utterly unlikable character.  It is also a lost opportunity to show us something about the Lannisters.  Jaime made a promise on his family's behalf.  A promise they cannot keep.  How do they handle that?

As you say, she goes after Sansa because of Jaime, not her oath to Catelyn.  Why shouldn't we expect that as soon as she's out of sight of Kings Landing she'll find some other, new cause to pledge her allegiance?

Catelyn's dead; it's the sort of thing that absolves oaths. It's not as if Brienne would have been able to 'steal' Sansa away from the most powerful family in King's Landing, in any case. Brienne came back as Jaime's charge, not the other way around...she didn't have the standing to make and exchange.


I agree there's no plausible way she leaves Kings Landing with Sansa.  But I disagree the death of Cat ends the commitment.  Sansa still has family in the North. Brienne could at least make a token effort, so at least it could be said she tried.

Instead, all that can be said is she...well, what has she done?  As you point out, it was Jaime that brings her back to KL, not the other way around, so she hasn't even accomplished that half of her task.
 
2014-04-28 11:48:03 PM  

mcmnky: bborchar: mcmnky: bborchar:

In the show, when she and Jaime get back, Sansa is already married to Tyrion and Catelyn's dead.  What exactly is she supposed to do at that point?

She's leaving now, not because of her oath to Catelyn, but because Jaime has tasked her with it.

She could have done something, which would have been better than the nothing she did.

If she pushed Jaime on the issue, what does he do?  "My hand is tied--KL is Tywin's world." So she goes to Tywin, and what would he do? "As Tyrion's wife, her place is by his side.  We're her family now."  So then she goes to Tyrion, and he reiterates Tywin's message.  "Perhaps when it's safer to travel we can visit the Tullys."

So the result is the same, in that Sansa is left in KL until the wedding.  But we learn a little about Brienne and her sense of honor.  But Brienne in the show has no honor.  She is an utterly unlikable character.  It is also a lost opportunity to show us something about the Lannisters.  Jaime made a promise on his family's behalf.  A promise they cannot keep.  How do they handle that?

As you say, she goes after Sansa because of Jaime, not her oath to Catelyn.  Why shouldn't we expect that as soon as she's out of sight of Kings Landing she'll find some other, new cause to pledge her allegiance?

Catelyn's dead; it's the sort of thing that absolves oaths. It's not as if Brienne would have been able to 'steal' Sansa away from the most powerful family in King's Landing, in any case. Brienne came back as Jaime's charge, not the other way around...she didn't have the standing to make and exchange.

I agree there's no plausible way she leaves Kings Landing with Sansa.  But I disagree the death of Cat ends the commitment.  Sansa still has family in the North. Brienne could at least make a token effort, so at least it could be said she tried.

Instead, all that can be said is she...well, what has she done?  As you point out, it was Jaime that brings her back to KL, not the other way around, so she hasn't even accomplished that half of her task.


Well, circumstances change. She was given charge of the most wanted man in the North, it's not as if she just gave up on her oaths...she was given a damn-near impossible task and nearly died a few times trying to carry it out.

I put Brienne's failures down more to bad luck than anything else.
 
2014-04-29 12:40:35 AM  

bborchar: mcmnky: bborchar: mcmnky: bborchar:

In the show, when she and Jaime get back, Sansa is already married to Tyrion and Catelyn's dead.  What exactly is she supposed to do at that point?

She's leaving now, not because of her oath to Catelyn, but because Jaime has tasked her with it.

She could have done something, which would have been better than the nothing she did.

If she pushed Jaime on the issue, what does he do?  "My hand is tied--KL is Tywin's world." So she goes to Tywin, and what would he do? "As Tyrion's wife, her place is by his side.  We're her family now."  So then she goes to Tyrion, and he reiterates Tywin's message.  "Perhaps when it's safer to travel we can visit the Tullys."

So the result is the same, in that Sansa is left in KL until the wedding.  But we learn a little about Brienne and her sense of honor.  But Brienne in the show has no honor.  She is an utterly unlikable character.  It is also a lost opportunity to show us something about the Lannisters.  Jaime made a promise on his family's behalf.  A promise they cannot keep.  How do they handle that?

As you say, she goes after Sansa because of Jaime, not her oath to Catelyn.  Why shouldn't we expect that as soon as she's out of sight of Kings Landing she'll find some other, new cause to pledge her allegiance?

Catelyn's dead; it's the sort of thing that absolves oaths. It's not as if Brienne would have been able to 'steal' Sansa away from the most powerful family in King's Landing, in any case. Brienne came back as Jaime's charge, not the other way around...she didn't have the standing to make and exchange.

I agree there's no plausible way she leaves Kings Landing with Sansa.  But I disagree the death of Cat ends the commitment.  Sansa still has family in the North. Brienne could at least make a token effort, so at least it could be said she tried.

Instead, all that can be said is she...well, what has she done?  As you point out, it was Jaime that brings her back to KL, not the other way around, so she hasn't even accomplished that half of her task.

Well, circumstances change. She was given charge of the most wanted man in the North, it's not as if she just gave up on her oaths...she was given a damn-near impossible task and nearly died a few times trying to carry it out.

I put Brienne's failures down more to bad luck than anything else.


Once (Renly) is bad luck, twice (Catelyn) is coincidence, thrice (Jaime) is what? If Brienne fails at the task Jaime had given her, what does that say about Brienne?

I think the writers are failing to give Brienne a chance to be all she can be.
 
2014-04-29 01:00:49 AM  
Lots of rape-rape at Craster's this episode... whar the outrage?
 
2014-04-29 03:33:05 AM  

ThatBillmanGuy: stickindamud: Is anyone else getting bored with Danaerys and her quest to free slaves and then make them part of her army. Every week it's the same thing.

Yeah, her story makes me tune out now. It's just been 3 seasons of walking for her. She's supposed to be the awesome/kind ruler in the future or something, right? She just seems to be out for revenge on the common people and is letting it get to her head. Which is good. Even her "perfectness" is a gray area morally. But it's been the same thing, over and over and over.


This is her "Queen Training" period. She's going through a process of learning how to conquer and govern, and she's going to make a lot of mistakes but at least she'll make them in Essos and not Westeros (and this is leaving out the dragons -- she also has to learn how to control them). We've already seen what a person who is completely unfit to rule yet sits the Iron Throne is like, and we are all very glad he is gone.
 
2014-04-29 03:38:32 AM  

cevarius: Lots of rape-rape at Craster's this episode... whar the outrage?


Nobody cares about extras.
 
2014-04-29 03:41:23 AM  

cevarius: Lots of rape-rape at Craster's this episode... whar the outrage?


Because it's contextually accurate?  I suppose people could have felt it was unnecessary but as a reader of a lot of high fantasy, meh, rape happened in the times that high fantasy mimics.  A lot.  Especially during war.  Rape is dehumanising and degrading and I think they portrayed that pretty well.

I'm sure plenty of people have me favourited it "screaming harpy feminist" or "misandrist" and I do harp on about sexual assault and sexism a lot (in my defence, dealing with sexual assault victims is my actual job), but I didn't give two craps about the rape last week.  I haven't read the books, so they didn't "ruin" any characters for me.  I interpreted Cersei's "it's not right" to mean "yes but not now and not here next to our dead son's body" not "absolutely no".

People were more upset by the "it was consensual by the end" comment because that's a tricky thing to say in a society where there are plenty of men who still believe "she says she doesn't want it but she's lying" and there's an active effort to try and get people (men) to properly appreciate the simple issue of consent.  He would have done better to keep his mouth shut.

/"it was consensual by the end" is the definition of sex in just about every "historical romance" ever written
//Most noncon/dubcon fiction is written by women, that doesn't change the fact "no means no"
 
2014-04-29 08:30:46 AM  

silvervial: ThatBillmanGuy: stickindamud: Is anyone else getting bored with Danaerys and her quest to free slaves and then make them part of her army. Every week it's the same thing.

Yeah, her story makes me tune out now. It's just been 3 seasons of walking for her. She's supposed to be the awesome/kind ruler in the future or something, right? She just seems to be out for revenge on the common people and is letting it get to her head. Which is good. Even her "perfectness" is a gray area morally. But it's been the same thing, over and over and over.

This is her "Queen Training" period. She's going through a process of learning how to conquer and govern, and she's going to make a lot of mistakes but at least she'll make them in Essos and not Westeros (and this is leaving out the dragons -- she also has to learn how to control them). We've already seen what a person who is completely unfit to rule yet sits the Iron Throne is like, and we are all very glad he is gone.


Daenerys isn't doing much better, though. She's good at sacking cities, but she doesn't listen to the advice of those around her and believes that vengeance is the same as justice. She's also freed all of these slaves without giving one thought to how they will be able to live as free people. She also refuses to listen to (or believe) those who would try to tell her what really happened during the rebellion. When Selmy tries to tell her that Ned Stark was a good man who tried to save her from Robert, she doesn't believe him and parrots what her brother always told her about them.

At this point, even in the books, she is not qualified to rule Westeros. She knows nothing about it expect for what Viserys has told her, and he knew little more. And it's because of her pride.
 
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