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(Sports Illustrated)   "Gordon taps a grounder to second, rounds first, and slides in safely with an infield double." Wait, what??   (mlb.si.com) divider line 31
    More: Cool, Dee Gordon, ground ball, Yasiel Puig, infielder, Justin Morneau, DJ LeMahieu, Jordan Lyles, stolen base  
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1662 clicks; posted to Sports » on 26 Apr 2014 at 2:58 PM (33 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



31 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-04-26 10:56:34 AM  
He hit it to first. Just because the second baseman fielded(well tried to anyway) the ball does not mean that he hit it to second.
 
2014-04-26 11:26:47 AM  
I would score that as an E4.

You could *maybe* score that as a single, with an extra base due to error.  There is no way you score that as a 2B.
 
2014-04-26 01:17:28 PM  

Rustico: I would score that as an E4.

You could *maybe* score that as a single, with an extra base due to error.  There is no way you score that as a 2B.


Apparently, you're mistaken.  There appears to be a way.
 
2014-04-26 01:26:35 PM  
Cool, indeed, submitter. Reminds me of Lofton scoring from second on a PB.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv3uVVz_7nQ
 
2014-04-26 01:53:39 PM  

Relatively Obscure: Rustico: I would score that as an E4.

You could *maybe* score that as a single, with an extra base due to error.  There is no way you score that as a 2B.

Apparently, you're mistaken.  There appears to be a way.


Me too. I would have thought that the 2nd baseman getting his glove on the ball like that would have made it technically an error, but no. Granted, if he had fielded it cleanly it would have been a heck of a play itself. Remarkable base running in any event.
 
2014-04-26 01:54:28 PM  

Relatively Obscure: Apparently, you're mistaken.  There appears to be a way.


Sure enough, the MLB box-scores have it as a hit, and a double at that.  That's a pretty generous score-keeper they have there in LA.
 
2014-04-26 02:23:51 PM  

Rustico: Relatively Obscure: Apparently, you're mistaken.  There appears to be a way.

Sure enough, the MLB box-scores have it as a hit, and a double at that.  That's a pretty generous score-keeper they have there in LA.


Yeah, I'm on the single plus error team.  A very generous score-keeper.
 
2014-04-26 02:46:20 PM  
Should have been fielded by the first baseman. Probably still wouldn't have got him at first but at least he wouldn't have advanced to second.

And yeah, that was an error.
 
2014-04-26 02:50:58 PM  
MLB rules (10.12 deals with errors specifically, but the same verbiage is used all through the rulebook) state that an error is to be charged when in the scorer's judgment a player making "ordinary effort" would have made the play.

As DrBenway pointed out, it would have been a heck of a play if the second baseman had made it, and it certainly would have, but that would indicate that "ordinary effort" would not have made the play. The fact that it caromed off the player's glove is immaterial.
 
2014-04-26 02:53:03 PM  

CruiserTwelve: Should have been fielded by the first baseman. Probably still wouldn't have got him at first but at least he wouldn't have advanced to second.

And yeah, that was an error.


The first baseman's job in that scenario was to cover first base.
 
2014-04-26 03:03:14 PM  

Gecko Gingrich: MLB rules (10.12 deals with errors specifically, but the same verbiage is used all through the rulebook) state that an error is to be charged when in the scorer's judgment a player making "ordinary effort" would have made the play.

As DrBenway pointed out, it would have been a heck of a play if the second baseman had made it, and it certainly would have, but that would indicate that "ordinary effort" would not have made the play. The fact that it caromed off the player's glove is immaterial.


I think where the thought that getting leather on the ball lent itself to an error ruling came from (for me, anyway) is that there's been a bit of a complaint over the years with error scoring -- that fielders with a greater range are sometimes penalized for misplaying balls that lesser players wouldn't have gotten to at all.

Gecko Gingrich: CruiserTwelve: Should have been fielded by the first baseman. Probably still wouldn't have got him at first but at least he wouldn't have advanced to second.

And yeah, that was an error.

The first baseman's job in that scenario was to cover first base.


This.
 
2014-04-26 03:08:21 PM  

Gecko Gingrich: MLB rules (10.12 deals with errors specifically, but the same verbiage is used all through the rulebook) state that an error is to be charged when in the scorer's judgment a player making "ordinary effort" would have made the play.

As DrBenway pointed out, it would have been a heck of a play if the second baseman had made it, and it certainly would have, but that would indicate that "ordinary effort" would not have made the play. The fact that it caromed off the player's glove is immaterial.


I think that "ordinary effort" would have left him with a single.

/Single plus error camp
 
2014-04-26 03:20:54 PM  
Meh. Who cares? Proof that you gotta be a mod or a favorite son to get a greenlight here.
 
2014-04-26 03:25:40 PM  

Gecko Gingrich: The first baseman's job in that scenario was to cover first base.


You see the pitcher running over to cover first? The first baseman should have fielded the ball and thrown to the pitcher covering.
 
2014-04-26 03:33:40 PM  

CruiserTwelve: Gecko Gingrich: The first baseman's job in that scenario was to cover first base.

You see the pitcher running over to cover first? The first baseman should have fielded the ball and thrown to the pitcher covering.


You see that thing on the first baseman's left hand? That's a glove. You want him to make a running, cross-body snag on a hard hit ground ball against a very fast runner and make a spinning throw to a likely moving target at first base?

/The pitcher is running over to back up the first baseman.
 
2014-04-26 03:35:30 PM  
it's pronounced gor-don
 
2014-04-26 03:35:52 PM  

Gecko Gingrich: MLB rules (10.12 deals with errors specifically, but the same verbiage is used all through the rulebook) state that an error is to be charged when in the scorer's judgment a player making "ordinary effort" would have made the play.

As DrBenway pointed out, it would have been a heck of a play if the second baseman had made it, and it certainly would have, but that would indicate that "ordinary effort" would not have made the play. The fact that it caromed off the player's glove is immaterial.


For the single, sure.  But had he gotten the ball ("ordinary effort" says that he should have), Gordon would have never gone for second base. Thus, a single plus an E4.
 
2014-04-26 03:38:30 PM  

IlGreven: Gecko Gingrich: MLB rules (10.12 deals with errors specifically, but the same verbiage is used all through the rulebook) state that an error is to be charged when in the scorer's judgment a player making "ordinary effort" would have made the play.

As DrBenway pointed out, it would have been a heck of a play if the second baseman had made it, and it certainly would have, but that would indicate that "ordinary effort" would not have made the play. The fact that it caromed off the player's glove is immaterial.

For the single, sure.  But had he gotten the ball ("ordinary effort" says that he should have), Gordon would have never gone for second base. Thus, a single plus an E4.


I think the scorer decided that had the ball gotten past the second baseman (which it would have, save for extra-ordinary effort, which the second baseman *almost* mustered) the batter would have made it safely to second. Again, the fact that it hit his glove doesn't factor into the decision.
 
2014-04-26 03:40:54 PM  
To back up my claim of a double had the ball gotten through the shift, look where the right fielder was playing.

Heck, it may have been a triple.
 
2014-04-26 03:44:47 PM  

kidakita: Meh. Who cares? Proof that you gotta be a mod or a favorite son to get a greenlight here.


Aw, punkin.
 
2014-04-26 04:11:32 PM  

Rustico: I would score that as an E4.

You could *maybe* score that as a single, with an extra base due to error.  There is no way you score that as a 2B.


I agree. Technically, it's a "scorer's call" because there is an arguable case that the ball was not able to be fielded with ordinary effort. I personally would not have scored that a double.
 
2014-04-26 04:31:17 PM  
DrBenway: I think where the thought that getting leather on the ball lent itself to an error ruling came from (for me, anyway) is that there's been a bit of a complaint over the years with error scoring -- that fielders with a greater range are sometimes penalized for misplaying balls that lesser players wouldn't have gotten to at all.

I've been swayed by similar arguments re: Golden Gloves. The argument being that the guy who makes the highlight worthy diving catch to save the extra-base hit is actually a worse player than the guy who played the hit correctly and was under the ball before it got there.
 
2014-04-26 04:33:07 PM  

kidakita: Meh. Who cares? Proof that you gotta be a mod or a favorite son to get a greenlight here.


Ehhh not true, I have one and I'm hated by most mods and posters for that matter.

Gif wouldn't play but the way its being described sounds like a hit and error or could be an error all around.
 
2014-04-26 05:19:49 PM  

kidakita: Meh. Who cares? Proof that you gotta be a mod or a favorite son to get a greenlight here.


Subby here.  Just my fourth green light...in 12-13 years.  You mad, bro?

As it is, you don't score that play an error.  Imagine instead the second baseman dove instead of stretched for the ball, which very well could have happened.  He dives and the ball caroms off his glove and trickles into foul territory.  Not unusual.  Gordon stretches it into a double.  Do you score that an error?  No, or course not.  It goes back to the "ordinary effort" clause in the rule book.

Gordon's fast.  I'd love to see a foot race between him and Billy Hamilton.
 
2014-04-26 06:48:36 PM  

Cubs300: kidakita: Meh. Who cares? Proof that you gotta be a mod or a favorite son to get a greenlight here.

Subby here.  Just my fourth green light...in 12-13 years.  You mad, bro?

As it is, you don't score that play an error.  Imagine instead the second baseman dove instead of stretched for the ball, which very well could have happened.  He dives and the ball caroms off his glove and trickles into foul territory.  Not unusual.  Gordon stretches it into a double.  Do you score that an error?  No, or course not.  It goes back to the "ordinary effort" clause in the rule book.

Gordon's fast.  I'd love to see a foot race between him and Billy Hamilton.


That would be an error in any other park, hell if the second baseman doesn't stumble he's close to out anyways. Either way at worst its a hit and an error allowing him to take second base.
 
2014-04-26 07:22:18 PM  

Gecko Gingrich: MLB rules (10.12 deals with errors specifically, but the same verbiage is used all through the rulebook) state that an error is to be charged when in the scorer's judgment a player making "ordinary effort" would have made the play.

As DrBenway pointed out, it would have been a heck of a play if the second baseman had made it, and it certainly would have, but that would indicate that "ordinary effort" would not have made the play. The fact that it caromed off the player's glove is immaterial.


The error was made by the 1st baseman when he failed to attempt to field the ball that was clearly his responsibility. He should have fielded it and thrown to the pitcher who should have beat the runner to 1st.

I doubt you can score that as an error, but that was an error of judgement, and was the real error that was made.
 
2014-04-26 08:13:45 PM  
Single plus error.
 
2014-04-26 09:04:35 PM  

arentol: Gecko Gingrich: MLB rules (10.12 deals with errors specifically, but the same verbiage is used all through the rulebook) state that an error is to be charged when in the scorer's judgment a player making "ordinary effort" would have made the play.

As DrBenway pointed out, it would have been a heck of a play if the second baseman had made it, and it certainly would have, but that would indicate that "ordinary effort" would not have made the play. The fact that it caromed off the player's glove is immaterial.

The error was made by the 1st baseman when he failed to attempt to field the ball that was clearly his responsibility. He should have fielded it and thrown to the pitcher who should have beat the runner to 1st.

I doubt you can score that as an error, but that was an error of judgement, and was the real error that was made.


No what everyone else has been saying that others aren't grasping is you can score it a hit but an error on the advance to second but there is no way that's a double.
 
2014-04-26 10:32:50 PM  

Gecko Gingrich: You want him to make a running, cross-body snag on a hard hit ground ball against a very fast runner and make a spinning throw to a likely moving target at first base?


Todd Helton would have done it.
 
2014-04-26 11:25:17 PM  

Gecko Gingrich: DrBenway: I think where the thought that getting leather on the ball lent itself to an error ruling came from (for me, anyway) is that there's been a bit of a complaint over the years with error scoring -- that fielders with a greater range are sometimes penalized for misplaying balls that lesser players wouldn't have gotten to at all.

I've been swayed by similar arguments re: Golden Gloves. The argument being that the guy who makes the highlight worthy diving catch to save the extra-base hit is actually a worse player than the guy who played the hit correctly and was under the ball before it got there.


It depends. When that big tub o' home runs stumbles into a great looking diving catch that a top defender could have snagged easily, sure. When that top defender make a diving catch that the other guy would never get close to, then it isn't true.
 
2014-04-27 12:18:57 AM  
Single plus error. Then again, I think that a tapped ball to the first base side of the mound that is picked up by the pitcher, then dropped, then thrown to first is an error not a hit. The official scorer in Pittsburgh does not agree, and robbed C.C. Sabathia and the Brewers of a no hitter, the farking douchebag. Never forgive, never forget.
 
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