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(Opposing Views)   Problem: Returning soldier finds two squatters in his home, police refuse to throw them out. Solution: A motorcycle gang of military veterans roll by and "peacefully make the squatters uncomfortable"   (opposingviews.com) divider line 290
    More: Hero, squatters, squatters uncomfortable, veterans, refuses, New Port Richey, soldiers, motorcycles  
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23292 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Apr 2014 at 3:34 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



290 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-04-25 04:23:09 PM  

hardinparamedic: I'm not saying he's not right, or that he shouldn't be able to. What I am saying is that the law would be completely on their side if what you suggest actually went down.


I know you're not defending the squatters.

If he didn't call the cops(who in then turn made an official note of it) he could have brutally fixed the situation, was my point.That's what I'd expect any thinking and effective warrior to do anyway.

I do agree fully that if he broke in, owning to Florida's bad laws, they most likely would have walked had they pumped him full o' lead.   My guess is that they may have stood a worse chance against him, but thn again his neutered actions suggest otherwise.

I sure hope someone more war-like takes his place in the Army, that's for sure.
 
2014-04-25 04:24:04 PM  

tricycleracer: Duke Energy crews came to the house to investigate how the squatters got electricity at the house.

Stealing a meter will get your ass arrested.


The homeowner probably never turned it off...
 
2014-04-25 04:24:14 PM  
He gave up any chance of OWNING the property, which is the goal of adverse possession, when he claimed he had permission from an agent of the owner to be there.  You see, that claim acknowledges ownership.  IANAL.  His best chance to stay would be to fight eviction, and numerous potential bikers.
 
2014-04-25 04:25:11 PM  

Mugato: walktoanarcade: I think it's more about Florida's ridiculous laws concerning verbal/oral agreements.

How do you prove an oral agreement unless it's recorded?


That's my point; the verbal/oral agreement is stupid, passe and should be abolished everywhere.
 
2014-04-25 04:25:19 PM  
Sharkey's friend, who was overseeing the home while the soldier and his wife were gone.

Did a piss poor job of that.
 
2014-04-25 04:25:34 PM  
I hate those "I've been serving my country" people.
 
2014-04-25 04:25:35 PM  

walktoanarcade: I sure hope someone more war-like takes his place in the Army, that's for sure.


Yeah, Hawaii is a war zone.
 
2014-04-25 04:25:39 PM  
Headso:  That sounds dangerous, how about just show up with a truck and run it all night with a hose going from the tailpipe in to a window of the home.

You take all the fun out of it. Plus, what am I going to do with the meat saws and field dressing kit that I bought now?
the bone saw adapter I made for the 18 volt Ryobi reciprocating saw is itching to see action.
 
2014-04-25 04:26:13 PM  

hardinparamedic: lennavan: This is Florida and Florida has Stand Your Ground laws.  A perfectly lawful solution would have been for the soldier to break down his own front door, because it's his door and he can do with it what he wants, and in finding intruders in his home, so he goes right ahead and stands his ground.

Uh, you do realize that the law considers them residents of the property, and had he done that, they would have been legally justified in shooting him the moment he kicked the door in and forced entry.

They would have been standing their ground against an attacker.


Only if they were actually residents.

It turns on whether they were actually given permission to stay on the property (duration is less important).  If they were either guests or tenants, then they are/were residents and have to be evicted even if the permissible period of residency is long up.  If they were never guests or tenants, they they were and are trespassing.

Assuming they were trespassing (and the facts seem to lean that way for sure), the real problem I see with lennavan's stand your ground strategy is that the whole thing falls apart if you go in with the intention of shooting them.

A much better strategy is to simply wait till they leave and then toss their stuff out and change the locks back.  If you're right and they aren't residents, they can't do anything, and if you're wrong, no one is being charged with murder, though you might be getting sued.
 
2014-04-25 04:27:14 PM  

walktoanarcade: Mugato: walktoanarcade: I think it's more about Florida's ridiculous laws concerning verbal/oral agreements.

How do you prove an oral agreement unless it's recorded?

That's my point; the verbal/oral agreement is stupid, passe and should be abolished everywhere.


That is patently retarded.  Commerce would come to a stand still if every contract had to be reduced to a writing.
 
2014-04-25 04:27:37 PM  

walktoanarcade: bunner: This is a very interesting exercise into the notions of what does and does not construe property ownership.

Disagree. I think it's more about Florida's ridiculous laws concerning verbal/oral agreements.

If there was an oral agreement, the cops would be very right to back off. They do not want to get sued and lose.   Since Florida law is stupid and leans towards the liars leaving the burden off "proof" upon the real homeowner to go to court and prove they own what they own.

You cannot legally in any way steal some else's home.


Um, nobody said you could. Only that there are applicable laws and a process has to be followed. Which, for those with legalistic minds, provides an interesting exercise in what Farker bunner said.

Or one could try your method, which seems to be "yell at clouds."
 
2014-04-25 04:28:44 PM  

hardinparamedic: Gonz: But there are most certainly ways to gain ownership of a piece of property without paying anything other than court costs.

As a side note, I hope his property taxes are all paid up.


Adverse possession of real property takes 30 years. A couple of years of back due property taxes won't change that, and I doubt the city would seize the property and sell it that quickly.
 
2014-04-25 04:29:04 PM  

SauronWasFramed: duhmass


It's pronounced "Doo-Mah".

evilsquirrelsnest.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-04-25 04:29:30 PM  

hardinparamedic: Mugato: Then without written documentation of that agreement, the burden would have to be on the squatter. Otherwise again, this would happen whenever someone finds out that a family is going away for a couple weeks.

It's a little more complicated than that, Mugato. In this case, it was more than simple break-in. They were living there - they had furniture and possessions there. More importantly, they had a working key to the house, and had been there more than a few days. They had a circumstantial case for tenancy and residency at that property.

This is the same reason why if I agreed to let you stay with me in exchange for working on my property that I can't just call the cops up and have you removed any time I want.


I think the whole "agreed to" thing is kind of an important distinction.
 
2014-04-25 04:29:41 PM  

Gonz: walktoanarcade: You cannot legally in any way steal some else's home.

You vastly underestimate the power of the courts. Except, if you do it legally, you're not really "stealing" the home, because stealing implies illegal.

But there are most certainly ways to gain ownership of a piece of property without paying anything other than court costs.


You're right, I do underestimate and yeah, I get your wording.

Still, it is not like the squatters say. You cannot legally take a home by doing what they did, unless that one lie they told was true, but it isn't. And then the poor homeowner has to pay to prove the truth of the matter in this farce of a justice system?  Damn.
 
2014-04-25 04:30:33 PM  

URAPNIS: I hate those "I've been serving my country" people.


Why? Just because their opinion is worth four times everybody elses'?
 
2014-04-25 04:31:16 PM  

hardinparamedic: brimed03: Yeah? So is rape

So, about last night....


gottdammit hp...
 
2014-04-25 04:31:44 PM  

sprgrss: That is patently retarded.  Commerce would come to a stand still if every contract had to be reduced to a writing.


Well how could an unrecorded oral contract possibly be proven or enforced? And don't tell me witnesses. I have friends that say under oath that Scarlet Johanson and I got into an "oral" contract.
 
2014-04-25 04:32:46 PM  

rebelyell2006: hardinparamedic: verbal agreement

Can a verbal agreement be enforced legally?


Yes.  A contract is an agreement, not a piece of paper.  If I offer you five dollars for your toupee, and you say yes, that's a contract.
 
2014-04-25 04:33:18 PM  

RightWingWacko: In the United States the Statute of Frauds require real estate contracts to be in writing to be enforceable.


mileage will vary given your jurisdiction.  Traditionally, the statute of frauds prevented leases for more than three years.

This is less than three years, and unless Florida has deviated from the traditional statue of frauds on this matter then an oral contract would be valid here.
 
2014-04-25 04:33:45 PM  
Surprised ULAC didn't show up to grandstand and spout bullshiat.
Just Vote from the rooftops. Should only have to do it once, the survivor will get the message.
 
2014-04-25 04:33:55 PM  
So Sharkey's friend who was overseeing the house never called police when he found two people inside of it?  Sounds like there was a verbal agreement of some sort, either that or Sharkey's friend never checked on the house.
 
2014-04-25 04:34:07 PM  

mjones73: tricycleracer: Duke Energy crews came to the house to investigate how the squatters got electricity at the house.

Stealing a meter will get your ass arrested.

The homeowner probably never turned it off...


Maybe, but then what is there to investigate about a paid up account?
 
2014-04-25 04:34:53 PM  

Mugato: sprgrss: That is patently retarded.  Commerce would come to a stand still if every contract had to be reduced to a writing.

Well how could an unrecorded oral contract possibly be proven or enforced? And don't tell me witnesses. I have friends that say under oath that Scarlet Johanson and I got into an "oral" contract.


The same way you prove anything...witnesses and other forms of evidence, such as part performance.
 
2014-04-25 04:35:50 PM  

Dimensio: meat0918: I'm torn.

On one hand I dislike squatters, and am cynical enough to believe the friend is lying to this guy to cover his ass.

On the other hand, I don't like people taking the law into their own hands, even in this "peaceful" manner.  Isn't menacing a crime in most places?

I agree with your concern. As the homeowner had attempted legal relief for his grievance, and was informed by police officers that they would do nothing to remove the criminal invaders of his home, he should have simply accepted that he had no recourse at all, and allowed the criminal squatters to remain undisturbed.


In florida he should probably have forced his way in, sat down, waited till one of them shouted at him then shot them both.
 
2014-04-25 04:35:53 PM  

Nabb1: hardinparamedic: Gonz: But there are most certainly ways to gain ownership of a piece of property without paying anything other than court costs.ate i

As a side note, I hope his property taxes are all paid up.

Adverse possession of real property takes 30 years. A couple of years of back due property taxes won't change that, and I doubt the city would seize the property and sell it that quickly.


In my state it's 20 years, but yeah, adverse possession takes some time along with open and notorious use.
 
2014-04-25 04:36:05 PM  
Say, where's that Farker who has been proclaiming for the past week, that if nobody is using the property, anyone can use it?
 
2014-04-25 04:36:27 PM  

sprgrss: walktoanarcade: Mugato: walktoanarcade: I think it's more about Florida's ridiculous laws concerning verbal/oral agreements.

How do you prove an oral agreement unless it's recorded?

That's my point; the verbal/oral agreement is stupid, passe and should be abolished everywhere.

That is patently retarded.  Commerce would come to a stand still if every contract had to be reduced to a writing.


Dunna think so, laddy. It's so hard to print a receipt, and far harder to print up a short, small "contract."

Explain how oral agreements are needed or else commerce halts.  Or you talking about the sale itself "Wanna buy this?"   "Yes, I do, good, sir!" -that?
 
2014-04-25 04:37:17 PM  

The_Sponge: Mark Ratner: I think this is a pretty cool story, and I wish there was a video with audio showing the peaceful encounter with the squatters and motorcycle gang.

/I'm picturing 20-30 burly, bearded, tattooed, muscular fat dudes rolling up in their Harleys, politely ringing the door bell, and saying, "get the FARK out."
//squatters say, "ok, Jose" and close the door
///they're gone the next day


If I owned the home in that situation, I would be nervous about them trashing the house before leaving.


Under the circumstances, I suspect that ship has already sailed.
 
2014-04-25 04:37:36 PM  

hardinparamedic: Possession is 9/10 of the law.



This is a common expression but how it is commonly used is horseshiat.

It originated from English Common Law and when it was said that possession is 9/10 of the law it meant that 90% of the laws on the books were related to determining possession of property, not that having possession of something gives you leverage when determining ownership.
 
2014-04-25 04:37:53 PM  

brimed03: Bslim: Also acceptable solution: bikers go in, beat squatters' asses,, rape the women and wrap them in burlap sacks drive them 20 miles away and repeat.

Sorry, stealing someone's house is unacceptable.

Yeah? So is rape.


This isn't about rape.
 
2014-04-25 04:37:59 PM  
When will FOX News make the squatters their next heroes?
 
2014-04-25 04:38:25 PM  

boinkingbill: So Sharkey's friend who was overseeing the house never called police when he found two people inside of it?  Sounds like there was a verbal agreement of some sort, either that or Sharkey's friend never checked on the house.


Am I the only one here who saw the name "Sharkey" and thought of this:

media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com

Anybody?

*crickets*

/crap ... I'm old ...
 
2014-04-25 04:38:57 PM  
If anything good can come out of this, I would like a D level, Troma-style film where at the climax our hero says "Here. Squat on this." and shoots one of the home invaders in the ass with a shotgun.
 
2014-04-25 04:39:53 PM  

Rent Party: rebelyell2006: hardinparamedic: verbal agreement

Can a verbal agreement be enforced legally?

Yes.  A contract is an agreement, not a piece of paper.  If I offer you five dollars for your toupee, and you say yes, that's a contract.


I think that's more free market commerce.

If the legal staff here on FARK would correct me, these are my assumptions

Retail commerce occurs within a common social contract that goods and services A are exchanged for remuneration or thing of value B and that's all sorted out and the government gets it's chare and every body f*cks off home.  Contracts are often reserved for business or real property acquisitions and transfers, mergers and loans or any sort of business wherein a given amount of capital or assets will remain extant or in play, and require proof of ownership, proof of contracted debt and interest and which need to state clearly any given terms.  These are usually for transactions where more than the cost of a stick of butter are in play.  And should be.  And all you should have to do to evict felons from your home is to produce a deed title with your name on it.   So, this whole fandango was dogsh*t and should have taken about two hours to remedy.

No?
 
2014-04-25 04:40:51 PM  

walktoanarcade: sprgrss: walktoanarcade: Mugato: walktoanarcade: I think it's more about Florida's ridiculous laws concerning verbal/oral agreements.

How do you prove an oral agreement unless it's recorded?

That's my point; the verbal/oral agreement is stupid, passe and should be abolished everywhere.

That is patently retarded.  Commerce would come to a stand still if every contract had to be reduced to a writing.

Dunna think so, laddy. It's so hard to print a receipt, and far harder to print up a short, small "contract."

Explain how oral agreements are needed or else commerce halts.  Or you talking about the sale itself "Wanna buy this?"   "Yes, I do, good, sir!" -that?


A receipt isn't a contract.

A lot of commerce is conducted over the phone and in such a manner that waiting for a writing is not commercially reasonable.
 
2014-04-25 04:41:08 PM  

Sgt Otter: Say, where's that Farker who has been proclaiming for the past week, that if nobody is using the property, anyone can use it?


We have our very own Sovereign Citizen?
 
2014-04-25 04:41:47 PM  

KidneyStone: The_Sponge: mr lawson: it's Pasco co, new port richey.
This place is the reason Fl has its own tag. Not joking. This one county. This one city.

I thought Florida had it's own tag because of Melbourne/Palm Bay.

I'm pretty sure Florida got the tag from Palm Beach County and the "hanging chad" ballots from the 2000 election.

/I have lived in both Melbourne and Palm Bay
//In Melbourne I lived on East University Blvd, farther east than the fire station.  If you know the area you know why i shudder at those memories


I haven't been back since December 2004....Grandmother used to live in Palm Bay. After dealing with 2 hurricanes in '04, she move up here to Washington.
 
2014-04-25 04:42:28 PM  

Nabb1: A couple of years of back due property taxes won't change that, and I doubt the city would seize the property and sell it that quickly.


Memphis used anything over five years as justification to seize the property when they did their last round of eminent domain roundups a few years back.
 
2014-04-25 04:43:16 PM  

Mugato: sprgrss: That is patently retarded.  Commerce would come to a stand still if every contract had to be reduced to a writing.

Well how could an unrecorded oral contract possibly be proven or enforced? And don't tell me witnesses. I have friends that say under oath that Scarlet Johanson and I got into an "oral" contract.


The courts will look at the behaviors of the two parties in relation to what each says the agreement was.  If you and I verbally contract to wash your car, and I don't do it, but I go out and buy a bucket and soap and sponges and a hawt new bikini, the court might conclude that there was an agreement and enforce it.
 
2014-04-25 04:43:31 PM  

Gyrfalcon: hardinparamedic: Linux_Yes: sounds like horse sh*t to me. if you can't produce written evidence (deed) that you own/rent the home, your ass is out.  that is the Law. 90% of the Law in 'murica pertains to protecting Private Property Ownership.


what planet are these 'cops' living on??

Planet "This is a landlord/tenet dispute, and we can't get involved until you perform either a legal eviction, or take them to court."

In most states, if someone claims to be staying there by invitation as a tenet or roommate, you have to follow specific actions, including giving them the minimum notice required by law to GTFO.

This.

No matter how much you legally own the property, if someone ON the property has established residence, you have to evict them through the courts; the cops can't do it just because you're the owner.

It sucks, but it also keeps Donald Trump from kicking widows off his hotel property.


So if I just declare that someone is now my landlord, that makes it so? I can just walk into any structure, declare into the void that I'm a tenant, and the only way to get to me to leave is through civil proceedings? That's not how it works.

/if it does, do similar laws apply to other people? Can I just declare Kate Upton my wife and it's up to her to handle divorce proceedings? And until such time as the divorce comes through I get to do stuff???
 
2014-04-25 04:44:05 PM  

Sgt Otter: Say, where's that Farker who has been proclaiming for the past week, that if nobody is using the property, anyone can use it?


He left a message for you:

media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com
 
2014-04-25 04:44:15 PM  

sprgrss: Mugato: sprgrss: That is patently retarded.  Commerce would come to a stand still if every contract had to be reduced to a writing.

Well how could an unrecorded oral contract possibly be proven or enforced? And don't tell me witnesses. I have friends that say under oath that Scarlet Johanson and I got into an "oral" contract.

The same way you prove anything...witnesses and other forms of evidence, such as part performance.


Well, here's hoping someone doesn't claim they made an oral contract with me and has a friend to back him up because the law is completely retarded on this issue.
 
2014-04-25 04:44:21 PM  
Wasn't this an episode of "Teabagger Theater"?
 
2014-04-25 04:45:01 PM  

sprgrss: walktoanarcade: sprgrss: walktoanarcade: Mugato: walktoanarcade: I think it's more about Florida's ridiculous laws concerning verbal/oral agreements.

How do you prove an oral agreement unless it's recorded?

That's my point; the verbal/oral agreement is stupid, passe and should be abolished everywhere.

That is patently retarded.  Commerce would come to a stand still if every contract had to be reduced to a writing.

Dunna think so, laddy. It's so hard to print a receipt, and far harder to print up a short, small "contract."

Explain how oral agreements are needed or else commerce halts.  Or you talking about the sale itself "Wanna buy this?"   "Yes, I do, good, sir!" -that?

A receipt isn't a contract.

A lot of commerce is conducted over the phone and in such a manner that waiting for a writing is not commercially reasonable.


You didn't follow. Small contracts can be printed as easily and onto receipt paper.

And the phone?  Like that isn't recorded? I'm not talking about the latest news headlines, I mean, reputable business routinely monitor phone calls.

If it's done over the phone nowadays, be rested assured it's stored(the conversation) somewhere,
 
2014-04-25 04:46:16 PM  

Mugato: sprgrss: Mugato: sprgrss: That is patently retarded.  Commerce would come to a stand still if every contract had to be reduced to a writing.

Well how could an unrecorded oral contract possibly be proven or enforced? And don't tell me witnesses. I have friends that say under oath that Scarlet Johanson and I got into an "oral" contract.

The same way you prove anything...witnesses and other forms of evidence, such as part performance.

Well, here's hoping someone doesn't claim they made an oral contract with me and has a friend to back him up because the law is completely retarded on this issue.


And heaven forfend someone forge your signature.
 
2014-04-25 04:47:22 PM  

Scrotastic Method: Gyrfalcon: hardinparamedic: Linux_Yes: sounds like horse sh*t to me. if you can't produce written evidence (deed) that you own/rent the home, your ass is out.  that is the Law. 90% of the Law in 'murica pertains to protecting Private Property Ownership.


what planet are these 'cops' living on??

Planet "This is a landlord/tenet dispute, and we can't get involved until you perform either a legal eviction, or take them to court."

In most states, if someone claims to be staying there by invitation as a tenet or roommate, you have to follow specific actions, including giving them the minimum notice required by law to GTFO.

This.

No matter how much you legally own the property, if someone ON the property has established residence, you have to evict them through the courts; the cops can't do it just because you're the owner.

It sucks, but it also keeps Donald Trump from kicking widows off his hotel property.

So if I just declare that someone is now my landlord, that makes it so? I can just walk into any structure, declare into the void that I'm a tenant, and the only way to get to me to leave is through civil proceedings? That's not how it works.


You ignored the "established residence" part. There are guidelines in different municipalities that determine what this is but generally cops will say "Do they stay here? Do they get their mail here? Then you have to evict them."

This is so that domestic disputes don't result in people becoming instantly homeless because Billy-Bob uses "Well then git outta my trailer" as leverage to keep BettySue from breaking up with his abusive ass.
 
2014-04-25 04:48:13 PM  

The_Sponge: KidneyStone: The_Sponge: mr lawson: it's Pasco co, new port richey.
This place is the reason Fl has its own tag. Not joking. This one county. This one city.

I thought Florida had it's own tag because of Melbourne/Palm Bay.

I'm pretty sure Florida got the tag from Palm Beach County and the "hanging chad" ballots from the 2000 election.

/I have lived in both Melbourne and Palm Bay
//In Melbourne I lived on East University Blvd, farther east than the fire station.  If you know the area you know why i shudder at those memories

I haven't been back since December 2004....Grandmother used to live in Palm Bay. After dealing with 2 hurricanes in '04, she move up here to Washington.


I moved from Palm Bay to South Florida in 92.  Ya know, when Andrew hit.  And was still living there in 04 when Jeanne and Frances hit.  And don't get me started on the biatch Wilma, although I like being able to say I've been in the eye of a Cat 3.
 
2014-04-25 04:49:18 PM  

Mugato: sprgrss: Mugato: sprgrss: That is patently retarded.  Commerce would come to a stand still if every contract had to be reduced to a writing.

Well how could an unrecorded oral contract possibly be proven or enforced? And don't tell me witnesses. I have friends that say under oath that Scarlet Johanson and I got into an "oral" contract.

The same way you prove anything...witnesses and other forms of evidence, such as part performance.

Well, here's hoping someone doesn't claim they made an oral contract with me and has a friend to back him up because the law is completely retarded on this issue.


This is why written contracts are superior, but judges aren't completely stupid.

"Your honor, we had a verbal contract where he said I could live in his house for a dollar a week, my brother was witness!" probably wouldn't stand up.
 
2014-04-25 04:49:20 PM  

walktoanarcade: You didn't follow. Small contracts can be printed as easily and onto receipt paper.

And the phone?  Like that isn't recorded? I'm not talking about the latest news headlines, I mean, reputable business routinely monitor phone calls.

If it's done over the phone nowadays, be rested assured it's stored(the conversation) somewhere,


Receipts aren't contracts and receipts are only provided after a contract has been entered into.

And not all businesses record their phone conversations.

Say for instance you operate a plumbing business and you are on site and need a bastard coupling.  You call up your parts supplier and order one.  Your parts supplier sends it over to you.  No writing is necessary, not to mention that the receipt wouldn't qualify as a written contract since it isn't signed by both parties.

Or how about this, you call up to order a pizza.  Should the pizza should first have to send a person over to your house to get you to sign a written contract before the pizza place starts making your pizza?

Society has managed to function quite well with oral contracts
 
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