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(Opposing Views)   Problem: Returning soldier finds two squatters in his home, police refuse to throw them out. Solution: A motorcycle gang of military veterans roll by and "peacefully make the squatters uncomfortable"   (opposingviews.com) divider line 290
    More: Hero, squatters, squatters uncomfortable, veterans, refuses, New Port Richey, soldiers, motorcycles  
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23271 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Apr 2014 at 3:34 PM (39 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



290 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-04-25 03:58:46 PM  

rebelyell2006: hardinparamedic: verbal agreement

Can a verbal agreement be enforced legally? If there is no proof whatsoever that the agreement was actually agreed upon?


A verbal contract is just as good as a written contract unless some other provision of law provides (see Statute of Frauds for your jurisdiction).
 
2014-04-25 04:00:14 PM  

Angela Lansbury's Merkin: The_Sponge: If I owned the home in that situation, I would be nervous about them trashing the house before leaving.

That's guaranteed no matter what with squatters.  They'll steal anything they can fence and trash what they can't.


So purification through flame then.
 
2014-04-25 04:00:58 PM  

meat0918: I'm torn.

On one hand I dislike squatters, and am cynical enough to believe the friend is lying to this guy to cover his ass.

On the other hand, I don't like people taking the law into their own hands, even in this "peaceful" manner.  Isn't menacing a crime in most places?


He didn't take the law into his own hands, he tried going to the cops.  That's where I'm no longer torn and you should not be either.

This is Florida and Florida has Stand Your Ground laws.  A perfectly lawful solution would have been for the soldier to break down his own front door, because it's his door and he can do with it what he wants, and in finding intruders in his home, so he goes right ahead and stands his ground.
 
2014-04-25 04:01:01 PM  

Mugato: Then without written documentation of that agreement, the burden would have to be on the squatter. Otherwise again, this would happen whenever someone finds out that a family is going away for a couple weeks.


It's a little more complicated than that, Mugato. In this case, it was more than simple break-in. They were living there - they had furniture and possessions there. More importantly, they had a working key to the house, and had been there more than a few days. They had a circumstantial case for tenancy and residency at that property.

This is the same reason why if I agreed to let you stay with me in exchange for working on my property that I can't just call the cops up and have you removed any time I want.
 
2014-04-25 04:01:50 PM  
So the Moral of the Story is don't be poor or dumb enough to be lied to by war profiteers to go overseas to kill other people's children in wars of conquest or you could lose house to vagrants.
 
2014-04-25 04:02:10 PM  

Headso: vudukungfu: Just show up with a truck and a van full of big blue plastic barrels. get out with goon suits on (plastic ones) wielding sledge hammers, crow bars, etc. turn non the cell phone blocker. Open the door, tase, duct tape, extract, and remove in safe containers. Put containers out beyond international waters full of lye and anchor them.
Done.

That sounds dangerous, how about just show up with a truck and run it all night with a hose going from the tailpipe in to a window of the home.


media.npr.org

FOOKING GENIUS!!
 
2014-04-25 04:02:34 PM  

lennavan: This is Florida and Florida has Stand Your Ground laws.  A perfectly lawful solution would have been for the soldier to break down his own front door, because it's his door and he can do with it what he wants, and in finding intruders in his home, so he goes right ahead and stands his ground.


Uh, you do realize that the law considers them residents of the property, and had he done that, they would have been legally justified in shooting him the moment he kicked the door in and forced entry.

They would have been standing their ground against an attacker.
 
2014-04-25 04:02:46 PM  
He's either one seriously old E-4 or he's lived a real hard life. Did he get busted down for something or just spent loads of years stuck in a reserve/guard rank or is he just an idiot who can't get promoted?  I'm banking on the last since he seems to think just abandoning your house for two years is a great idea. What could possibly go wrong?
 
2014-04-25 04:03:07 PM  
Sad that an army guy needed rescuing from "outlaw" bikers.

Dude, why didn't you just break in? Fark the cops, they're wrong. You're stupid for calling them because once the cops hear anything legal, they blank out.  Their "oh goodie I don't have to work it's a civil matter" muscle has been activated at that point.

If all someone has to do is lie to get the police off their backs, then it looks like calling the cops is a bad idea, dude.
 
2014-04-25 04:03:11 PM  
Seriously? Some of you people on here are why we cant have nice things. Why are you so farking inflamed that some folks have more than others? Get out and work for it you lazy pieces of shiat. Oh poor farking me *boo hoo* I have to blame everyone but myself for my poor life choices."  Sometimes you people make me sick man. Dude was stationed away from the house he comes back and felons...*FELONS* had taken over his hose and for you guys to even insinuate he did anything wrong is even beyond absurd. Jumpin' Jesus Christ on a pogo stick grow the fark up.
 
2014-04-25 04:03:24 PM  
This is a very interesting exercise into the notions of what does and does not construe property ownership.  And to what degree all of this ostensibly civilized and plainly understood legal fandango tango comes down to who can steal what and who can beat who's ass in order to keep it.  After all the papers were signed and the money changed hands and the deeds and titles were prined on heavy bond paper, it came down to having to defend your home and keep it my means of informing those who would try and illegaly take it that they could end up with their teeth on a curb outside and their ass in traction.  And the law, with all of it's papers and guns and tax revenues, did nothing.
 
2014-04-25 04:03:37 PM  

ThreadSinger: I'm confused - how does one 'squat' in a home owned by another. I'm serious here; I'll acknowledge I'm from Ottawa so some US issues are a mystery to me, but how can you setup in someone's home, illegally, in the US, and not be arrested for trespassing, break and enter, whatever, not to mention probably interference with the trajectory of projectile weapons?

/??


It dates to the first colonization of the lands, reinforced by laws like the Homestead Act. Take the land (regardless of who is on it since Indians are not citizens), farm on it, improve it, and it is yours. Or build your fence on your neighbor's yard or around his unused shed, clean up that area, keep it maintained for years and it will eventually become yours. The problem is that in the modern times it is harder to squat on large property areas because technology improves the ability to monitor the houses and land and thus catch them before the squatters can have a full legal claim to the land, but instead get caught at a point when ownership is questionable.
 
2014-04-25 04:05:00 PM  

hardinparamedic: rebelyell2006: Can a verbal agreement be enforced legally? If there is no proof whatsoever that the agreement was actually agreed upon?

I don't know about Florida tenet/landlord laws, but I know what I had to go through in Tennessee to get a room mate of mine removed from my house. I had to serve him at least one week notice before I could get him removed out by the deputies.


Like it or not, I think the "tenants" of this house got served the correct amount of laws that were due them. The actuall owners of the house claimed tenancy and apparently they were enforced as we can see, the true owners got their home back.

/sorry that you had such a problem your former tenant.
 
2014-04-25 04:05:41 PM  

yequalsy: He's either one seriously old E-4 or he's lived a real hard life. Did he get busted down for something or just spent loads of years stuck in a reserve/guard rank or is he just an idiot who can't get promoted?  I'm banking on the last since he seems to think just abandoning your house for two years is a great idea. What could possibly go wrong?


Original story had him as a Guard member who went active. During sequester notification, FL National Guard  told 15% of the force to get out in one for or another.
 
2014-04-25 04:06:35 PM  

walktoanarcade: Fark the cops, they're wrong. You're stupid for calling them because once the cops hear anything legal, they blank out.  Their "oh goodie I don't have to work it's a civil matter" muscle has been activated at that point.


So break in, and get legally shot by people that Florida Law considers a tenet at the residence after they "fear for their lives" and stand their ground.

Brilliant plan.

Netrngr: Dude was stationed away from the house he comes back and felons...*FELONS* had taken over his hose and for you guys to even insinuate he did anything wrong is even beyond absurd.


Who's been doing that?

As far as I can see. everyone in this thread is in agreement that these people are terrible people. The problem is that Florida doesn't consider them intruders, and there is nothing for the cops to do at this point.

All the property owner had to do was file for eviction. Heck, for added fun, he could have filed a civil claim for back rent due since they "lived there".
 
2014-04-25 04:06:44 PM  

lokis_mentor: yequalsy: He's either one seriously old E-4 or he's lived a real hard life. Did he get busted down for something or just spent loads of years stuck in a reserve/guard rank or is he just an idiot who can't get promoted?  I'm banking on the last since he seems to think just abandoning your house for two years is a great idea. What could possibly go wrong?

Original story had him as a Guard member who went active. During sequester notification, FL National Guard  told 15% of the force to get out in one for

m or another.

/ftfm
 
2014-04-25 04:06:53 PM  

hardinparamedic: rebelyell2006: Can a verbal agreement be enforced legally? If there is no proof whatsoever that the agreement was actually agreed upon?

I don't know about Florida tenet/landlord laws, but I know what I had to go through in Tennessee to get a room mate of mine removed from my house. I had to serve him at least one week notice before I could get him removed out by the deputies.


Ianal and its been a while since I looked at this, but I skimmed this sorta info when I was living with the ex and things were looking dodgy with the landlords (his parents). Iirc the process can leave the tenant with several weeks to vacate, depending on how long they've been there. I remember being surprised (and relieved) at how much time was really alloted.
 
2014-04-25 04:07:04 PM  

meat0918: I'm torn.

On one hand I dislike squatters, and am cynical enough to believe the friend is lying to this guy to cover his ass.

On the other hand, I don't like people taking the law into their own hands, even in this "peaceful" manner.  Isn't menacing a crime in most places?


I saw a video interview with the squatters and they were vile, nasty, creatures.  Besides if the cops won't do anything then yes, you are within your rights to solve the problem yourself in my opinion.
 
2014-04-25 04:07:34 PM  

bunner: This is a very patient man.  I think I would have reacted somewhat less calmly in that situation.


Same here. Midnight, 120cc Stihl chainsaw, hockey mask.
 
2014-04-25 04:07:38 PM  
alright from the second article it seems like shady contractor who was hired to do some work found out how long the real owner would be gone and decided to take over

cause really if you have permission why the hell do you need to change the locks out
 
2014-04-25 04:07:58 PM  

lokis_mentor: yequalsy: He's either one seriously old E-4 or he's lived a real hard life. Did he get busted down for something or just spent loads of years stuck in a reserve/guard rank or is he just an idiot who can't get promoted?  I'm banking on the last since he seems to think just abandoning your house for two years is a great idea. What could possibly go wrong?

Original story had him as a Guard member who went active. During sequester notification, FL National Guard  told 15% of the force to get out in one for or another.


For all we know the could just like to dress up like a marine and go to charity balls.
 
2014-04-25 04:08:01 PM  

rebelyell2006: ThreadSinger: I'm confused - how does one 'squat' in a home owned by another. I'm serious here; I'll acknowledge I'm from Ottawa so some US issues are a mystery to me, but how can you setup in someone's home, illegally, in the US, and not be arrested for trespassing, break and enter, whatever, not to mention probably interference with the trajectory of projectile weapons?

/??

It dates to the first colonization of the lands, reinforced by laws like the Homestead Act. Take the land (regardless of who is on it since Indians are not citizens), farm on it, improve it, and it is yours. Or build your fence on your neighbor's yard or around his unused shed, clean up that area, keep it maintained for years and it will eventually become yours. The problem is that in the modern times it is harder to squat on large property areas because technology improves the ability to monitor the houses and land and thus catch them before the squatters can have a full legal claim to the land, but instead get caught at a point when ownership is questionable.


It long predates that, going back to Roman times.  Adverse possession is nothing new or unique to America.  It was imported here from Merry Ol' England which developed the idea of adverse possession long before colonization
 
2014-04-25 04:08:04 PM  

Kurgan Warlord: Like it or not, I think the "tenants" of this house got served the correct amount of laws that were due them. The actuall owners of the house claimed tenancy and apparently they were enforced as we can see, the true owners got their home back.


I'm just lulzing they got ran out so easily.

Locally, it took a SWAT team to get one out.
 
2014-04-25 04:09:20 PM  

Netrngr:  Why are you so farking inflamed that some folks have more than others? Get out and work for it you lazy pieces of shiat. Oh poor farking me *boo hoo* I have to blame everyone but myself for my poor life choices."


WTF are you going on about? Anyway, you forgot to sprinkle your nonsensical post with "liberals".

I'll tell you what the problem is. He came back from surfing in Hawaii instead of coming back from Afghanistan with PTSD and an itchy trigger finger. Would have been a completely different article.
 
2014-04-25 04:09:23 PM  

hardinparamedic: FTFA: Ortiz claims that he made a verbal agreement with Sharkey's friend, who was overseeing the home while the soldier and his wife were gone, that they could live there for free as long as they did repairs on the house. Both Sharkey and his friend say those claims are lies, but Ortiz has continued to defend himself.

Possession is 9/10 of the law. At this point, it's a matter of he-said, she-said as far as the law is concerned.

Sadly, I'm also willing to bet Ortiz is one of those Sovereign Citizen types, as well. These people will move into houses, change locks on houses, and then using the "POWER OF ATTORNEY!" (Heh, see what I did there), file "secret papers" with the courts that somehow allow them to claim that property as theirs because they discovered the secret of legaleese in a five hundred dollar, two day seminar.


Possession isn't really 9/10 of the law.  If it was just a he-said/she-said in this case, the police would evict the guys based on trespassing.  However, additional facts are that the friend who was managing the house while the soldier was away does admit to hiring the squatter to make repairs, but says that there was no authorization to live there.

It's entirely possible that's the full story, and the squatters are trespassers, but it makes it a little harder to determine, especially if the home-managing friend can't produce a copy of a contract that specfies payment, but does not authorize housesitting.  In that case, it's a question of contract terms.
 
2014-04-25 04:09:54 PM  
Duke Energy crews came to the house to investigate how the squatters got electricity at the house.

Stealing a meter will get your ass arrested.
 
2014-04-25 04:10:05 PM  
His house, simply move back in, forcefully. What will the cops do, arrest him for being in his own house?

Shoot the squatters in self defense next.
 
2014-04-25 04:10:08 PM  

bunner: This is a very interesting exercise into the notions of what does and does not construe property ownership.


Disagree. I think it's more about Florida's ridiculous laws concerning verbal/oral agreements.

If there was an oral agreement, the cops would be very right to back off. They do not want to get sued and lose.   Since Florida law is stupid and leans towards the liars leaving the burden off "proof" upon the real homeowner to go to court and prove they own what they own.

You cannot legally in any way steal some else's home.
 
2014-04-25 04:10:20 PM  

Evil Mackerel: lokis_mentor: yequalsy: He's either one seriously old E-4 or he's lived a real hard life. Did he get busted down for something or just spent loads of years stuck in a reserve/guard rank or is he just an idiot who can't get promoted?  I'm banking on the last since he seems to think just abandoning your house for two years is a great idea. What could possibly go wrong?

Original story had him as a Guard member who went active. During sequester notification, FL National Guard  told 15% of the force to get out in one for or another.

For all we know he could just like to dress up like a marine and go to charity balls.


FTFM
 
2014-04-25 04:11:02 PM  
a TENET is a central premise of a belief system.

a TENANT is somebody consensually renting or occupying a place they don't own.

Brought to you by an INCHOATE, somebody who wants to stop twitching while reading this thread. ;)
 
2014-04-25 04:12:40 PM  

hardinparamedic: So break in, and get legally shot by people that Florida Law considers a tenet at the residence after they "fear for their lives" and stand their ground.

Brilliant plan.


All that army training all for naught. Brilliant! ;)

He should have kicked their asses into the curb come hell or high water. C'mon, dude, we're talking about one of the motherfarkers who's supposed to be protecting our behinds, remember?
 
2014-04-25 04:12:41 PM  

The_Sponge: mr lawson: it's Pasco co, new port richey.
This place is the reason Fl has its own tag. Not joking. This one county. This one city.

I thought Florida had it's own tag because of Melbourne/Palm Bay.


I'm pretty sure Florida got the tag from Palm Beach County and the "hanging chad" ballots from the 2000 election.

/I have lived in both Melbourne and Palm Bay
//In Melbourne I lived on East University Blvd, farther east than the fire station.  If you know the area you know why i shudder at those memories
 
2014-04-25 04:12:45 PM  

loonatic112358: alright from the second article it seems like shady contractor who was hired to do some work found out how long the real owner would be gone and decided to take over

cause really if you have permission why the hell do you need to change the locks out


We had a good bit of this in New Orleans after Katrina. Lots of migrant workers (our local "labor pool" didn't do shiat), lots of fly by night contractors, and lots of homeowners living out of state for months. Many workers had legitimate arrangements, but our cours became familiar with squatting complaints after a while.
 
2014-04-25 04:14:00 PM  

dr_blasto: SauronWasFramed: If only there were laws that allowed the authorities to remove them from the owners property.   Gotta love it when duhmass liberal laws intentions fail at the hands of a mob.

Did you have a stroke while writing this?


No, he's just republican.
 
2014-04-25 04:14:25 PM  

walktoanarcade: Disagree. I think it's more about Florida's ridiculous laws concerning verbal/oral agreements.


The bailiwick notwithstanding, it did indeed prevent a lawful property owner from lawfully retaining his property.  And unless this county has seceded from the USA, that is precisely the case.
 
2014-04-25 04:16:07 PM  

Inchoate: a TENET is a central premise of a belief system.

a TENANT is somebody consensually renting or occupying a place they don't own.

Brought to you by an INCHOATE, somebody who wants to stop twitching while reading this thread. ;)


MY iPhone DISAGREES WITH YOUR TENET.

walktoanarcade: He should have kicked their asses into the curb come hell or high water. C'mon, dude, we're talking about one of the motherfarkers who's supposed to be protecting our behinds, remember?


I'm not saying he's not right, or that he shouldn't be able to. What I am saying is that the law would be completely on their side if what you suggest actually went down.
 
2014-04-25 04:16:08 PM  
Ahem....fbexternal-a.akamaihd.net
 
2014-04-25 04:16:24 PM  

walktoanarcade: I think it's more about Florida's ridiculous laws concerning verbal/oral agreements.


How do you prove an oral agreement unless it's recorded?
 
2014-04-25 04:17:16 PM  

Born_Again_Bavarian: There seems to be some details missing from this story.

How long were the squatters living there?  Was the solider really shocked to come back after 2 years and find someone living there?  Has he not seen a utility bill, get a call from a neighbor or do anything at all to check on the status of his property while he was gone?  He's obviously from the area because there isn't an Army base anywhere around there (Closest is just south of Jacksonville).  Was he really just leaving the property vacant with no AC running for 2 years?


Yeah... couple-three things from a better article I read yesterday:

1. DOUBLE FAIL: the motorcycle rally was planned for Saturday, but Ortiz moved out first because of other pressures. Article FAIL for suggesting the M.C. forced Ortiz' hand, Subby FAIL for heavily implying the M.C. rally happened. Bad Subby.

2. Ortiz told the cops he was there as the result of a verbal contract. As a result, he could not be evicted without court proceedings.

3. When he was seen to be moving out, friends came and stood by to make sure there was no trouble/damage. Ortiz left two dogs which Animal Control crated but then Ortiz returned for them. Local vets have pledged to help clean up and repair the house.

Also see Farker lokis_mentor's comment above which is a very succinct summary of the facts and includes a link to another article.

Bad Subby! No treat for you.
 
2014-04-25 04:18:45 PM  
In the United States the Statute of Frauds require real estate contracts to be in writing to be enforceable.
 
2014-04-25 04:18:49 PM  
This sounds like a huge load of bullshiat to me. You can't have someone removed from your property? So I can just break into someone's house and then the home owners have to take me to civil court to have me removed?

"I'm not robbing this house! I'm just a squatter!"
 
2014-04-25 04:19:15 PM  

Bslim: Also acceptable solution: bikers go in, beat squatters' asses,, rape the women and wrap them in burlap sacks drive them 20 miles away and repeat.

Sorry, stealing someone's house is unacceptable.


Yeah? So is rape.
 
2014-04-25 04:20:20 PM  

brimed03: Yeah? So is rape


So, about last night....
 
2014-04-25 04:22:20 PM  
Me, I would have just busted through the side wall of the house and suplexed those squatting sunsabiatches over and over again until they agreed to pay me back rent at $10,002/month and gave me a double handie.

/tuff!
 
2014-04-25 04:22:21 PM  

walktoanarcade: You cannot legally in any way steal some else's home.


You vastly underestimate the power of the courts. Except, if you do it legally, you're not really "stealing" the home, because stealing implies illegal.

But there are most certainly ways to gain ownership of a piece of property without paying anything other than court costs.
 
2014-04-25 04:22:26 PM  

Bslim: Also acceptable solution: bikers go in, beat squatters' asses,, rape the women and wrap them in burlap sacks drive them 20 miles away and repeat.

Sorry, stealing someone's house is unacceptable.


How about the bikers just go into the house and keep asking the squatters if they'd like to hear the story about why they got this one tattoo until the squatters run out of the house screaming.
 
2014-04-25 04:22:42 PM  

hardinparamedic: Inchoate: a TENET is a central premise of a belief system.

a TENANT is somebody consensually renting or occupying a place they don't own.

Brought to you by an INCHOATE, somebody who wants to stop twitching while reading this thread. ;)

MY iPhone DISAGREES WITH YOUR TENET.


I see the problem. Your iPhone is a squatter.
 
2014-04-25 04:22:58 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: meat0918: I'm torn.

On one hand I dislike squatters, and am cynical enough to believe the friend is lying to this guy to cover his ass.

On the other hand, I don't like people taking the law into their own hands, even in this "peaceful" manner.  Isn't menacing a crime in most places?

If the homeowner had taken the time and effort to become wealthy, the cops would have gone in with guns drawn.  So this really is all on him.


^THIS^

You'd have two dead "robbers" and probably a planted weapon.
 
2014-04-25 04:23:01 PM  

Cold_Sassy: meat0918: I'm torn.

On one hand I dislike squatters, and am cynical enough to believe the friend is lying to this guy to cover his ass.

On the other hand, I don't like people taking the law into their own hands, even in this "peaceful" manner.  Isn't menacing a crime in most places?

I saw a video interview with the squatters and they were vile, nasty, creatures.  Besides if the cops won't do anything then yes, you are within your rights to solve the problem yourself in my opinion.


Good for you tough lady. You show 'em. And when you're in prison remember all Fark has taught you about UFIA.
 
2014-04-25 04:23:01 PM  

Gonz: But there are most certainly ways to gain ownership of a piece of property without paying anything other than court costs.


As a side note, I hope his property taxes are all paid up.
 
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