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(The Jersey Tomato Press)   Famous Major League Baseball pitcher outs sticky little baseball secret: don't tar and feather Pineda. WE ALL DO IT. Radio interview with Dirk Hayhurst busts MLB for hypocrisy   (thejerseytomatopress.com) divider line 92
    More: Asinine, Major League Baseball, Michael Pineda, Dirk Hayhurst, pitchers, pine tar, baseball, yankees players, Padres  
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1337 clicks; posted to Sports » on 25 Apr 2014 at 9:36 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-25 07:57:47 AM  
I think that it was in one of Ron Luciano's books that he admitted that all the umps knew that most pitchers doctored balls in one way or another but as he pointed out, "Would you want to go out to the mound & closely search Gaylord Perry's sweaty body?"

When put that way it made a lot of sense as to why it is generally ignored unless it can't be - such as smearing pine tar on your neck WAY above the collar...
 
2014-04-25 08:25:27 AM  
Dirk Hayhurst is not a famous pitcher. You don't get famous playing for the Jays and Padres (for 40 innings total)

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure he's right. But, he's not famous.
 
2014-04-25 08:40:46 AM  
Is this a written on unwritten rule?  It is really hard to keep track.
 
2014-04-25 09:40:15 AM  
The problem with Pineda is that he was too blatant about it. It could not be less obvious if he had a bottle of pine tar next to the mound.
 
2014-04-25 09:44:53 AM  
I thought you said he was famous.
 
2014-04-25 09:45:49 AM  
I don't care if MLB brings back the spitball. But until it does, quit adulterating the ball. Or accept the consequences of getting caught. That is all.
 
2014-04-25 09:54:43 AM  
Pineda gets tarred and feathered for being so utterly stupid. Even Gaylord Perry made some sort of effort to hide it. He may have hidden noted on his body saying "it's not here, but you're getting warmer", but he actually made you look for it on him. When you put it right on your damn neck, that's just lazy.
 
2014-04-25 09:56:02 AM  
Seriously, though, why wouldn't a 100% ban on pine tar be good for the game? So pitchers have to take a little bit off of their pitches to control them better? GOOD. "It only helps us get a better grip!" Yeah and a better grip means you can throw it harder and give your breaking stuff more rotation. Wouldn't this result in a needed uptick in offense/reduction in strikeouts?

/two birds, one stone
 
2014-04-25 09:57:29 AM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Or accept the consequences of getting caught. That is all.


That's the crux of it.  It's OK to do according to the collective wisdom of baseball, just don't get caught.
 
2014-04-25 09:59:41 AM  

Imperialism: Seriously, though, why wouldn't a 100% ban on pine tar be good for the game? So pitchers have to take a little bit off of their pitches to control them better? GOOD. "It only helps us get a better grip!" Yeah and a better grip means you can throw it harder and give your breaking stuff more rotation. Wouldn't this result in a needed uptick in offense/reduction in strikeouts?

/two birds, one stone


Try taking a 90 MPH fastball on the knee; maybe your feelings about a pitcher's grip will change.
 
2014-04-25 10:00:02 AM  
Blown out of proportion, Pineda got his 10 games suspension, Red Sox managed to salvage one game in the 3 game set.

I think it worked out for Boston, considering being swept by the Yankees would be a very BAD thing. I'm pretty sure if the Sox were winning John Farrell would of ignored it, but in a way its funny I believe he did it to salvage at least one game of the series. Do what you have to do to win a game.
Then again Pineda was rather obvious, but its going to hurt the Sox in the long run.
 
2014-04-25 10:01:55 AM  
He didn't get punished for cheating. He got punished for being a complete idiot.
 
2014-04-25 10:02:44 AM  
Illegalize the DH, legalize pine tar for pitchers!
 
2014-04-25 10:04:16 AM  

Misconduc: Blown out of proportion, Pineda got his 10 games suspension, Red Sox managed to salvage one game in the 3 game set.

I think it worked out for Boston, considering being swept by the Yankees would be a very BAD thing. I'm pretty sure if the Sox were winning John Farrell would of ignored it, but in a way its funny I believe he did it to salvage at least one game of the series. Do what you have to do to win a game.
Then again Pineda was rather obvious, but its going to hurt the Sox in the long run.


The Sox were winning at the time in that game, 2-0.
 
2014-04-25 10:04:35 AM  
David Cone had a pretty rational idea last night during the game - in cold weather, add a little pine tar to the outside of the rosin bag.  It's already there to help pitchers grip the baseball in warm weather (and is frequently mixed with sunscreen for extra tack) so why not provide the same effect when it's cold out?

And yes, Pineda was stupid by being so blatant, but by many accounts there are very few pitchers in the league who aren't using some combination of sunscreen & rosin or hidden pine tar to grip the baseball.  For once, maybe baseball could address reality head-on instead of clinging to unwritten codes?
 
2014-04-25 10:09:43 AM  

Yanks_RSJ: in cold weather, add a little pine tar to the outside of the rosin bag.


They do this all the time year round, I have a friend who was a AAA ump they would let a little pine tar slide but the amounts this guy was using were blatant.

/I also learned a catcher will sharpen an edge on their shin guards to rough up the ball.
 
2014-04-25 10:10:21 AM  
MLB pitchers, along with Joan Rivers, will soon be protesting against HDTV.
 
2014-04-25 10:10:26 AM  

idesofmarch: Imperialism: Seriously, though, why wouldn't a 100% ban on pine tar be good for the game? So pitchers have to take a little bit off of their pitches to control them better? GOOD. "It only helps us get a better grip!" Yeah and a better grip means you can throw it harder and give your breaking stuff more rotation. Wouldn't this result in a needed uptick in offense/reduction in strikeouts?

/two birds, one stone

Try taking a 90 MPH fastball on the knee; maybe your feelings about a pitcher's grip will change.


Yeah and if a pitcher starts hitting four guys a game he's going to find himself out of a job. I refuse to believe that if you take away pine tar pitchers are suddenly going to have no idea where their pitches are going. Can't throw strikes at 90 mph without pine tar? Then throw 85.
 
2014-04-25 10:13:56 AM  

Tom_Slick: They do this all the time year round, I have a friend who was a AAA ump they would let a little pine tar slide but the amounts this guy was using were blatant.


I'm well aware he was blatant, I used that very word in my post.  I'm sorry I didn't consult your friend, the former AAA umpire, instead of basing my comment on the words of a guy who pitched in the major leagues for 17 years.
 
2014-04-25 10:14:56 AM  
Laughs at the Yankees getting punished for pine tar.

/Go Royals!
 
2014-04-25 10:17:46 AM  

Yanks_RSJ: Tom_Slick: They do this all the time year round, I have a friend who was a AAA ump they would let a little pine tar slide but the amounts this guy was using were blatant.

I'm well aware he was blatant, I used that very word in my post.  I'm sorry I didn't consult your friend, the former AAA umpire, instead of basing my comment on the words of a guy who pitched in the major leagues for 17 years.


No I was talking about the pine tar on the rosin bag, it happens all the time and the umps usually let it slide just so long as it is a small enough amount.
 
2014-04-25 10:22:51 AM  

Tom_Slick: Yanks_RSJ: Tom_Slick: They do this all the time year round, I have a friend who was a AAA ump they would let a little pine tar slide but the amounts this guy was using were blatant.

I'm well aware he was blatant, I used that very word in my post.  I'm sorry I didn't consult your friend, the former AAA umpire, instead of basing my comment on the words of a guy who pitched in the major leagues for 17 years.

No I was talking about the pine tar on the rosin bag, it happens all the time and the umps usually let it slide just so long as it is a small enough amount.


Oh, sorry I misunderstood.  In any case, I think MLB could make something official to avoid these incidents entirely.

And clearly Pineda isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, I don't think he'd even consider doing that on his own.  I heard someone describe him yesterday, he's a guy who wouldn't know to go inside if it started raining.
 
2014-04-25 10:23:35 AM  

Imperialism: idesofmarch: Imperialism: Seriously, though, why wouldn't a 100% ban on pine tar be good for the game? So pitchers have to take a little bit off of their pitches to control them better? GOOD. "It only helps us get a better grip!" Yeah and a better grip means you can throw it harder and give your breaking stuff more rotation. Wouldn't this result in a needed uptick in offense/reduction in strikeouts?

/two birds, one stone

Try taking a 90 MPH fastball on the knee; maybe your feelings about a pitcher's grip will change.

Yeah and if a pitcher starts hitting four guys a game he's going to find himself out of a job. I refuse to believe that if you take away pine tar pitchers are suddenly going to have no idea where their pitches are going. Can't throw strikes at 90 mph without pine tar? Then throw 85.


Yeah, you can slow it down, but that doesn't help the poor guy who just took one off the elbow.  The whole point is to not have anybody hit.

Do you think they should also take away the rosin bag?  It serves the same purpose.
 
2014-04-25 10:24:01 AM  
So baseball is a sport?
 
2014-04-25 10:25:07 AM  

Dinobot: The problem with Pineda is that he was too blatant about it. It could not be less obvious if he had a bottle of pine tar next to the mound.


Bears repeating.  And let's face it, it's the blatant ones that piss the world off.
 
2014-04-25 10:28:00 AM  

idesofmarch: Imperialism: idesofmarch: Imperialism: Seriously, though, why wouldn't a 100% ban on pine tar be good for the game? So pitchers have to take a little bit off of their pitches to control them better? GOOD. "It only helps us get a better grip!" Yeah and a better grip means you can throw it harder and give your breaking stuff more rotation. Wouldn't this result in a needed uptick in offense/reduction in strikeouts?

/two birds, one stone

Try taking a 90 MPH fastball on the knee; maybe your feelings about a pitcher's grip will change.

Yeah and if a pitcher starts hitting four guys a game he's going to find himself out of a job. I refuse to believe that if you take away pine tar pitchers are suddenly going to have no idea where their pitches are going. Can't throw strikes at 90 mph without pine tar? Then throw 85.

Yeah, you can slow it down, but that doesn't help the poor guy who just took one off the elbow.  The whole point is to not have anybody hit.

Do you think they should also take away the rosin bag?  It serves the same purpose.


I don't know. But I do know that we have pitchers dominating the game to such an extent that rules might get changed if it continues (like how they lowered the mound). This is one possibility.
 
2014-04-25 10:36:42 AM  
The way I have come to understand it is they know everyone does it, however dont make it obvious that you are doing it. Kinda like going 65MPH in a 55MPH area, you probably wont get busted for that, but if you are going 90MPH in a 55 area you are probably gonna get a ticket.


Baseballs unwritten rules are odd
 
2014-04-25 10:40:08 AM  

Yanks_RSJ: Tom_Slick: Yanks_RSJ: Tom_Slick: They do this all the time year round, I have a friend who was a AAA ump they would let a little pine tar slide but the amounts this guy was using were blatant.

I'm well aware he was blatant, I used that very word in my post.  I'm sorry I didn't consult your friend, the former AAA umpire, instead of basing my comment on the words of a guy who pitched in the major leagues for 17 years.

No I was talking about the pine tar on the rosin bag, it happens all the time and the umps usually let it slide just so long as it is a small enough amount.

Oh, sorry I misunderstood.  In any case, I think MLB could make something official to avoid these incidents entirely.

And clearly Pineda isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, I don't think he'd even consider doing that on his own.  I heard someone describe him yesterday, he's a guy who wouldn't know to go inside if it started raining.


The problem is if they had an official rule, it would be tougher to enforce the guys who go overboard, how much is too much?  As it stands now if there is a lot on the rosin bag the umps just throw away the bag, when the pitcher puts it on his body they eject him.
 
2014-04-25 10:45:47 AM  

Tom_Slick: The problem is if they had an official rule, it would be tougher to enforce the guys who go overboard, how much is too much?


Which is why I'm saying, have a specific rosin/pine tar bag that is put on the mound only in cold weather.  If you have any on your body, glove, cap or uniform, you're gone.

You could ask the same about sunscreen, how much is too much, particularly if you're pitching in a dome?  The fact that it's not as visible doesn't make the effect (when mixed with rosin) any different than pine tar.
 
2014-04-25 10:51:41 AM  

groppet: The way I have come to understand it is they know everyone does it, however dont make it obvious that you are doing it. Kinda like going 65MPH in a 55MPH area, you probably wont get busted for that, but if you are going 90MPH in a 55 area you are probably gonna get a ticket.


Baseballs unwritten rules are odd


Not entirely, problem is being unwritten most of the kids don't know about it - until it happens. For example a pitching mound is a sacred place for a pitcher, runners are not to go "over the mount" for any reason. Only time I seen this is when Dallas Braden cried about Aroid running over the pitching mound.

Long as I played, I never heard more then 2-3 of these "unwritten rules", I guess you find out about it when someone gets butt hurt over it.
 
2014-04-25 10:54:30 AM  

Yanks_RSJ: You could ask the same about sunscreen, how much is too much, particularly if you're pitching in a dome?  The fact that it's not as visible doesn't make the effect (when mixed with rosin) any different than pine tar.


Which goes back to the enforcement issue.  So black people can't use sunscreen? Gingers can oil themselves up to their heart's content?

If it looks like you got hit in the neck by a giant shiny flying turd, not cool.  If you looked like you just got out of a tub filled with crisco, not cool.

www.classicfirearms.com

Sandpaper in your pocket, definitely not cool (but I do love me some Niekros).
 
2014-04-25 11:09:16 AM  

dikkcor28: Gingers can oil themselves up to their heart's content?


I now have the image of a redheaded pitcher on the mound slathered up like a Turkish oil wrestler and wondering WHY my mind even took me to such a place.
 
2014-04-25 11:17:00 AM  
37.media.tumblr.com

What took you so long?
 
2014-04-25 11:33:46 AM  
It's like steroids... Just about everyone does it. Athletes have cheated since the dawn of time. It is like professional wrestling in that way
 
2014-04-25 11:36:59 AM  
Everyone may do it, and I have no problem with it one way or the other. Problem is, it is illegal, and Pineda was suspended for being a moran and blatantly displaying it.
 
2014-04-25 11:49:04 AM  
It's like knowing you have a drug test scheduled well in advance and still failing.
 
2014-04-25 11:49:41 AM  

usttsdw: Everyone may do it, and I have no problem with it one way or the other. Problem is, it is illegal, and Pineda was suspended for being a moran and blatantly displaying it.


Pretty much this. If you're going to cheat, and apparently you are, don't get caught.
 
2014-04-25 11:53:19 AM  
BS., You should read the Gaylord Perry interview about it that was out yesterday, as well as Dwight Gooden's comments. Pine tar makes the curves curve sharper and sliders break sharper. According to them, the rosin bag (dried pine tar) is all you need to get a good grip, and Pineda never went near it.
 
2014-04-25 11:54:01 AM  
Even Farrell said as much in his press conference immediately after the game.  The problem wasn't that Pineda used pine tar.  It was that he was a farking idiot to flaunt the rules so blatantly.
 
2014-04-25 12:03:08 PM  

Lost Thought 00: It's like knowing you have a drug test scheduled well in advance and still failing.


Isn't it ironic? Don't you think?
 
2014-04-25 12:15:27 PM  

Imperialism: Seriously, though, why wouldn't a 100% ban on pine tar be good for the game? So pitchers have to take a little bit off of their pitches to control them better? GOOD. "It only helps us get a better grip!" Yeah and a better grip means you can throw it harder and give your breaking stuff more rotation. Wouldn't this result in a needed uptick in offense/reduction in strikeouts?

/two birds, one stone


Sooooooooo you wouldn't mind if a guy with a 98 mph fastball aiming for the outside corner hits you on the shoulder because he had no grip on the ball?
 
2014-04-25 12:16:38 PM  
img.fark.net
 
2014-04-25 12:18:22 PM  

Gunny Highway: Is this a written on unwritten rule?  It is really hard to keep track.


It's written down, quite a bit.   It's just not enforced as written:

3.02
No player shall intentionally discolor or damage the ball by rubbing it with soil, rosin, paraffin, licorice, sand-paper, emery-paper or other foreign substance. PENALTY: The umpire shall demand the ball and remove the offender from the game. In addition, the offender shall be suspended automatically for 10 games. For rules in regard to a pitcher defacing the ball, see Rules 8.02(a)(2) through (6).

8.02a(4)
(The pitcher shall not) apply a foreign substance of any kind to the ball;

8.02a(5)
(The pitcher shall not)  deface the ball in any manner; or

8.02a(6)
(The pitcher shall not)  deliver a ball altered in a manner prescribed by Rule 8.02(a)(2) through (5) or what is called the "shine" ball, "spit" ball, "mud" ball or "emery" ball. The pitcher is allowed to rub the ball between his bare hands

8.02b
(The pitcher shall not) Have on his person, or in his possession, any foreign substance. For such infraction of this section (b) the penalty shall be immediate ejection from the game. In addition, the pitcher shall be suspended automatically. In National Association Leagues, the automatic suspension shall be for 10 games.

"Unwritten rules" are dumb.  Either the rules should be enforced as written, or the rules should be changed to match how the umpires call it in practice.
 
2014-04-25 12:20:06 PM  

Rwa2play: Imperialism: Seriously, though, why wouldn't a 100% ban on pine tar be good for the game? So pitchers have to take a little bit off of their pitches to control them better? GOOD. "It only helps us get a better grip!" Yeah and a better grip means you can throw it harder and give your breaking stuff more rotation. Wouldn't this result in a needed uptick in offense/reduction in strikeouts?

/two birds, one stone

Sooooooooo you wouldn't mind if a guy with a 98 mph fastball aiming for the outside corner hits you on the shoulder because he had no grip on the ball?


So learn how to throw strikes without it. Throw 94 instead of 98 if you need to.
 
2014-04-25 12:22:35 PM  
FTA:  "When pitcher Yankees pitcher Michael Pineda was outed ...."

Pitcher Yankees pitcher is gay and cheats?  I thought only catchers did that.

/does anybody proof-read anything anymore?
// no, because they post with their farkin phones
/// especially while posting to fark
 
2014-04-25 12:24:15 PM  

Rwa2play: Imperialism: Seriously, though, why wouldn't a 100% ban on pine tar be good for the game? So pitchers have to take a little bit off of their pitches to control them better? GOOD. "It only helps us get a better grip!" Yeah and a better grip means you can throw it harder and give your breaking stuff more rotation. Wouldn't this result in a needed uptick in offense/reduction in strikeouts?

/two birds, one stone

Sooooooooo you wouldn't mind if a guy with a 98 mph fastball aiming for the outside corner hits you on the shoulder because he had no grip on the ball?


It's not like they can't throw a baseball where they want without pine tar. Thousands of high school, college kids and even some MLBers do it everyday. If you're aiming for the outside corner and plunking guys in the shoulder, you won't be in the big leagues very long. Or you play for the Diamondbacks.
 
2014-04-25 12:29:02 PM  

Imperialism: idesofmarch: Imperialism: idesofmarch: Imperialism: Seriously, though, why wouldn't a 100% ban on pine tar be good for the game? So pitchers have to take a little bit off of their pitches to control them better? GOOD. "It only helps us get a better grip!" Yeah and a better grip means you can throw it harder and give your breaking stuff more rotation. Wouldn't this result in a needed uptick in offense/reduction in strikeouts?

/two birds, one stone

Try taking a 90 MPH fastball on the knee; maybe your feelings about a pitcher's grip will change.

Yeah and if a pitcher starts hitting four guys a game he's going to find himself out of a job. I refuse to believe that if you take away pine tar pitchers are suddenly going to have no idea where their pitches are going. Can't throw strikes at 90 mph without pine tar? Then throw 85.

Yeah, you can slow it down, but that doesn't help the poor guy who just took one off the elbow.  The whole point is to not have anybody hit.

Do you think they should also take away the rosin bag?  It serves the same purpose.

I don't know. But I do know that we have pitchers dominating the game to such an extent that rules might get changed if it continues (like how they lowered the mound). This is one possibility.


Bolded what I'm replying to.

Pitchers, I would say, aren't the dominant force in the game.  The dominant force in the game at this time is umpiring crews.

From page 21 of the MLB rulebook:

The STRIKE ZONE is that area over home plate the upper limit of which is a horizontal line at the  midpoint between the top of the shoulders and the top of the uniform pants and the lower level is a line at the hollow beneath the kneecap.  The Strike Zone shall be determined from the batter's stance as the batter is prepared to swing at a pitched ball.

When was the last time you EVER saw a ball thrown above the belt called a strike?  It is one, according to the rules.  The belt-to-knees width-of-plate box that you see on MLB broadcasts is a purposeful increase in pitching difficulty that has no basis whatsoever in the rules.   Yes, pitching in this era is strong.  However, without the umpires putting the constant squeeze on them, it'd be even MORE dominant.

I don't think that we'd see pitchers throwing high balls that our batters would turn on and destroy, given half a chance, but what do I know?  If a navel-high fastball has a chance to be called a strike on a regular basis, maybe our hitters wouldn't constantly chop balls into the dirt as often since they get a more natural swing?


I do know that we'll likely never see it.  Umps aren't going to change their habits, and they like running the show.
 
2014-04-25 12:45:23 PM  
10 game suspension means he'll only really miss two games. I feel it should've been a 20 game suspension, which would cause him to miss four starts which would hurt more.
 
2014-04-25 12:45:28 PM  

Imperialism: Rwa2play: Imperialism: Seriously, though, why wouldn't a 100% ban on pine tar be good for the game? So pitchers have to take a little bit off of their pitches to control them better? GOOD. "It only helps us get a better grip!" Yeah and a better grip means you can throw it harder and give your breaking stuff more rotation. Wouldn't this result in a needed uptick in offense/reduction in strikeouts?

/two birds, one stone

Sooooooooo you wouldn't mind if a guy with a 98 mph fastball aiming for the outside corner hits you on the shoulder because he had no grip on the ball?

So learn how to throw strikes without it. Throw 94 instead of 98 if you need to.


s3.amazonaws.com

Even if he's Greg Maddux, if he doesn't have a proper grip on the ball, he won't know where it's going.  Or haven't you seen infielders/outfields make a bad throw because they don't have a proper grip on the ball?

So unless you're a masochist, hope you enjoy having to move when that ball heads right between your eyes.
 
2014-04-25 12:46:04 PM  

ChrisDe: Rwa2play: Imperialism: Seriously, though, why wouldn't a 100% ban on pine tar be good for the game? So pitchers have to take a little bit off of their pitches to control them better? GOOD. "It only helps us get a better grip!" Yeah and a better grip means you can throw it harder and give your breaking stuff more rotation. Wouldn't this result in a needed uptick in offense/reduction in strikeouts?

/two birds, one stone

Sooooooooo you wouldn't mind if a guy with a 98 mph fastball aiming for the outside corner hits you on the shoulder because he had no grip on the ball?

It's not like they can't throw a baseball where they want without pine tar. Thousands of high school, college kids and even some MLBers do it everyday. If you're aiming for the outside corner and plunking guys in the shoulder, you won't be in the big leagues very long. Or you play for the Diamondbacks.


Wow, another one who missed the point.
 
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