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(Washington Examiner)   General Electric CEO Jeffrey Immelt confesses ObamaCare has caused their profits to flatten. Let's hear from Market Analyst Nelson Muntz   (washingtonexaminer.com) divider line 49
    More: Amusing, Jeffrey Immelt, CEO, obamacare, marketing strategy, health care markets, negative affect, doubts  
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1855 clicks; posted to Business » on 25 Apr 2014 at 9:21 AM (35 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



49 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-04-25 08:00:20 AM  
i59.tinypic.com


/well, you asked
 
2014-04-25 08:08:31 AM  
"Uncertainty"  is a constant in business.  It is your job as CEO to deal with it.  You will never find certainty in business, if you can't deal with it get out.
 
2014-04-25 08:20:59 AM  
Of course there is uncertainty in healthcare.

If there wasn't, we wouldn't buy insurance for healthcare.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-04-25 08:35:43 AM  
That was blamed on companies and hospitals holding back on purchases of GE equipment out of concern over how bad Obamacare will hit their profit margins.

Actually, Obamacare isn't funded by hospitals and it increases their customer base and protects them from indigent patients.  I can see how there would be uncertainly about how much their profits will increase.
 
2014-04-25 08:46:10 AM  
Let him pay their taxes.  Then maybe he can have a seat at the grownups' table and join the discussion.  Otherwise STFU.
 
2014-04-25 09:10:15 AM  
Sure, new procedures and expansion cause uncertainty - all the friggin time. WHEN the Obamacare uncertainty plays itself out, and hospitals, docs, insurance companies and consumers have got a handle of it - the uncertainty goes away, day to day operations become normalized, and things settle back to boring predictable practice.

But really, it's Armageddon right now for GE. Truly. How will they ever recover?
 
2014-04-25 09:11:52 AM  
Uncertainty inspires innovation and competition.  That would be terrible for capitalism in America.
 
2014-04-25 09:19:25 AM  
Uncertainty isn't a pit. Uncertainty is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, they cling to the realm or the gods or love. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.
 
2014-04-25 09:25:25 AM  

Diogenes: Let him pay their taxes.  Then maybe he can have a seat at the grownups' table and join the discussion.  Otherwise STFU.


GE pays taxes?
 
2014-04-25 09:30:26 AM  

clkeagle: Diogenes: Let him pay their taxes.  Then maybe he can have a seat at the grownups' table and join the discussion.  Otherwise STFU.

GE pays taxes?


I think that's the joke
 
2014-04-25 09:52:03 AM  
as someone who works for a large medical device company, we're looking at record breaking 4th quarter. perhaps GE should focus on business and less on shareholders.

and pay some taxes whiners.
 
2014-04-25 10:00:36 AM  

Twist-42: as someone who works for a large medical device company, we're looking at record breaking 4th quarter. perhaps GE should focus on business and less on shareholders.

and pay some taxes whiners.


Well said.

Shareholders have their place in our economy.  But we've allowed the relationships between businesses and their shareholders to move from symbiotic to parasitic.  It's not sustainable.
 
2014-04-25 10:23:29 AM  

clkeagle: Diogenes: Let him pay their taxes.  Then maybe he can have a seat at the grownups' table and join the discussion.  Otherwise STFU.

GE pays taxes?


They sure do.

From the 2013 10-K (which is not the same as a tax return, but unless GE releases that, this is the best we have to go on):

Consolidated current tax expense includes amounts applicable to U.S. federal income taxes of $85 million, $685 million and $1,079 million in 2013, 2012 and 2011, respectively, including the benefit from GECC deductions and credits applied against GE's current U.S. tax expense.

So, over the past 3 years, GE has set aside $1,849,000,000.00 in Federal income tax expense. That's $1.849 BILLION.

That's just income taxes. That does not include State, Local, Sales, Excise, Payroll taxes, etc.
 
2014-04-25 10:23:36 AM  

Twist-42: as someone who works for a large medical device company, we're looking at record breaking 4th quarter. perhaps GE should focus on business and less on shareholders.

and pay some taxes whiners.


Seems to me that this CEO's excuse is clearly fabricated then. Glad I don't own GE stock.
 
2014-04-25 10:28:16 AM  

SecretAgentWoman: Sure, new procedures and expansion cause uncertainty - all the friggin time. WHEN the Obamacare uncertainty plays itself out, and hospitals, docs, insurance companies and consumers have got a handle of it - the uncertainty goes away, day to day operations become normalized, and things settle back to boring predictable practice.

But really, it's Armageddon right now for GE. Truly. How will they ever recover?



It's really not a big deal for that side of the business. My wife works for a huge company that sells major medical equipment to hospitals. Her management's official stance is that Obamacare won't effect them much at all and may possibly increase sales.

Quick. If your performance is based on your profits and there is an easy scapegoat out there that you can blame ups and downs on, what would you do?

BTW GE, can we talk about how you haven't paid any corporate taxes in many years despite having huge profits?
 
2014-04-25 10:29:39 AM  

nocturnal001: you haven't paid any corporate taxes


You mean other than the $1.849 Billion that they have paid over the last three years?
 
2014-04-25 10:33:53 AM  
That's not possible. Immelt has been taking Obama's load for years.
 
2014-04-25 10:34:59 AM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: nocturnal001: you haven't paid any corporate taxes

You mean other than the $1.849 Billion that they have paid over the last three years?


Federal Income taxes, I'm not counting payroll or payments maid to foreign governments.
 
2014-04-25 10:36:04 AM  

nocturnal001: The_Six_Fingered_Man: nocturnal001: you haven't paid any corporate taxes

You mean other than the $1.849 Billion that they have paid over the last three years?

Federal Income taxes, I'm not counting payroll or payments maid to foreign governments.


Then perhaps you should re-read the post I made upthread.

From the 2013 10-K (which is not the same as a tax return, but unless GE releases that, this is the best we have to go on):

Consolidated current tax expense includes amounts applicable to U.S. federal income taxes of $85 million, $685 million and $1,079 million in 2013, 2012 and 2011, respectively, including the benefit from GECC deductions and credits applied against GE's current U.S. tax expense.

So, over the past 3 years, GE has set aside $1,849,000,000.00 in Federal income tax expense. That's $1.849 BILLION.

That's just income taxes. That does not include State, Local, Sales, Excise, Payroll taxes, etc.
 
2014-04-25 11:16:05 AM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: nocturnal001: you haven't paid any corporate taxes

You mean other than the $1.849 Billion that they have paid over the last three years?


I haven't looked myself, but are they referring to the income tax contributions based on payroll in the 10-K numbers you posted? I assumed those weren't corporate taxes.

Again, I haven't done any research into either set of claims myself, so I'm asking.
 
2014-04-25 11:20:26 AM  

nocturnal001: Quick. If your performance is based on your profits and there is an easy scapegoat out there that you can blame ups and downs on, what would you do?


Classic strategy.

I find it ironic that the business media flocks to CEO's when they have a good quarter and they usually find a way to take the lion's share of the credit. However when sales and profits are down these same CEO's are quick to blame the economy or other external factors rather than take any responsibility
Link

dilbert.com
 
2014-04-25 11:23:15 AM  
In case anyone was wondering were the "GE pays no taxes" idea came from:
Link

Hard to believe that was 3 years ago already. But yeah, no taxes in fiscal years 2009/2010 isn't that hard to believe.
 
2014-04-25 11:25:07 AM  

hackalope: The_Six_Fingered_Man: nocturnal001: you haven't paid any corporate taxes

You mean other than the $1.849 Billion that they have paid over the last three years?

I haven't looked myself, but are they referring to the income tax contributions based on payroll in the 10-K numbers you posted? I assumed those weren't corporate taxes.

Again, I haven't done any research into either set of claims myself, so I'm asking.


I am a little confused by your question. Are you asking if the $1.8B number includes their portion of payroll taxes or are you asking if it includes the withholding that they remit to the IRS on behalf of their employees?

If the former, no. That would not be included in Federal Income Tax description as part of the 10-K insofar as it is explained here. It is, however, included in the expenses used to calculate net income, which is what the tax is based on. So, in a sense, it is included in that number, but not in the manner that you are thinking. Employer FICA and UI are part of the equation, but that $1.8B number is not broken down into "$1.2B in income tax and $600M in Payroll taxes." The entire $1.8B is Federal Income Tax for GE.

If the latter, it would never include this amount. This is not a "tax" that GE is required to pay for themselves. They are required to withhold it and remit it, but it is the employee's tax payment and is associated with their Social Security number, not GE's EIN.

Of course, if you were asking something else altogether, please let me know. I would be happy to answer any questions that I can. Tax season is over, so I have some free time on my hands.
 
2014-04-25 11:28:17 AM  

impaler: In case anyone was wondering were the "GE pays no taxes" idea came from:
Link

Hard to believe that was 3 years ago already. But yeah, no taxes in fiscal years 2009/2010 isn't that hard to believe.


That piece is considered a hack job by most accountants and tax people in my industry. You cannot read a 10-K and know  for sure what any company's eventual tax bill will be. You can make educated guesses, but the folks at the NYT didn't even have the education necessary to make the guesses. They relied on facial "evidence" and ran with it. By the time that GE had responded and ProPublica had put out their rebuttal, the idea that GE pays no taxes and actually got a $3.2B refund was ingrained in the impressionable minds of those that had their minds already made up that GE was/is the pure embodiment of evil.
 
2014-04-25 11:28:24 AM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: clkeagle: Diogenes: Let him pay their taxes.  Then maybe he can have a seat at the grownups' table and join the discussion.  Otherwise STFU.

GE pays taxes?

They sure do.

From the 2013 10-K (which is not the same as a tax return, but unless GE releases that, this is the best we have to go on):

Consolidated current tax expense includes amounts applicable to U.S. federal income taxes of $85 million, $685 million and $1,079 million in 2013, 2012 and 2011, respectively, including the benefit from GECC deductions and credits applied against GE's current U.S. tax expense.

So, over the past 3 years, GE has set aside $1,849,000,000.00 in Federal income tax expense. That's $1.849 BILLION.

That's just income taxes. That does not include State, Local, Sales, Excise, Payroll taxes, etc.


I've not seen the 10-K and I wasn't aware the breakdowns were actually publicly available.  I do admit that zero was quite an exaggeration in either case.

I can easily make an argument about their very low effective rate though.
 
2014-04-25 11:28:27 AM  
Bet this means they'll have to lay off TWICE as many ordinary workers now in order to keep their bonuses this year.

/The spice bonuses must flow!
 
2014-04-25 11:33:05 AM  
So not sure how having more insured people in the health care arena leads to less revenue for hospitals which then leads to them purchasing less equipment from GE.

Seems like more patients with insurance would reduce the amount the hospitals need to write off combined with an increase in people seeking care utilizing more services such as GE's imaging technology seems like a win for the companies.
 
2014-04-25 11:36:13 AM  

nocturnal001: The_Six_Fingered_Man: clkeagle: Diogenes: Let him pay their taxes.  Then maybe he can have a seat at the grownups' table and join the discussion.  Otherwise STFU.

GE pays taxes?

They sure do.

From the 2013 10-K (which is not the same as a tax return, but unless GE releases that, this is the best we have to go on):

Consolidated current tax expense includes amounts applicable to U.S. federal income taxes of $85 million, $685 million and $1,079 million in 2013, 2012 and 2011, respectively, including the benefit from GECC deductions and credits applied against GE's current U.S. tax expense.

So, over the past 3 years, GE has set aside $1,849,000,000.00 in Federal income tax expense. That's $1.849 BILLION.

That's just income taxes. That does not include State, Local, Sales, Excise, Payroll taxes, etc.

I've not seen the 10-K and I wasn't aware the breakdowns were actually publicly available.  I do admit that zero was quite an exaggeration in either case.

I can easily make an argument about their very low effective rate though.


The 10-K is available on GE's website. The breakdown that you are looking for is not in there, but having experience in the field, I was able to zero in on the information that everyone is talking about. I couldn't tell you how much they set aside for payroll taxes, sales taxes, etc. because those are lumped into operational expenses. But, because everyone is hot on GE's Federal Income Tax bill, they broke out that section and specifically addressed it in their latest 10-K. Again, not as good as reviewing a tax return, but it is literally as close as the public is ever going to get. There is not an administration now or ever in the future that will force a non-governmental, for-profit entity to release their returns. The slippery slope involved is too massive to imagine.
 
2014-04-25 12:07:29 PM  
static3.businessinsider.com
 
2014-04-25 12:17:12 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: nocturnal001: you haven't paid any corporate taxes

You mean other than the $1.849 Billion that they have paid over the last three years?


Not sure about the $1.849 B you are talking about (don't care), but GE gets tax advantages every year.  Using your $1.85B number over three years, and their net profit statements the file with the government, I see GE underpaying by about $12B.  So when people say they haven't paid any corporate taxes, this is what they mean.
 
2014-04-25 12:19:34 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: nocturnal001: The_Six_Fingered_Man: clkeagle: Diogenes: Let him pay their taxes.  Then maybe he can have a seat at the grownups' table and join the discussion.  Otherwise STFU.

GE pays taxes?

They sure do.

From the 2013 10-K (which is not the same as a tax return, but unless GE releases that, this is the best we have to go on):

Consolidated current tax expense includes amounts applicable to U.S. federal income taxes of $85 million, $685 million and $1,079 million in 2013, 2012 and 2011, respectively, including the benefit from GECC deductions and credits applied against GE's current U.S. tax expense.

So, over the past 3 years, GE has set aside $1,849,000,000.00 in Federal income tax expense. That's $1.849 BILLION.

That's just income taxes. That does not include State, Local, Sales, Excise, Payroll taxes, etc.

I've not seen the 10-K and I wasn't aware the breakdowns were actually publicly available.  I do admit that zero was quite an exaggeration in either case.

I can easily make an argument about their very low effective rate though.

The 10-K is available on GE's website. The breakdown that you are looking for is not in there, but having experience in the field, I was able to zero in on the information that everyone is talking about. I couldn't tell you how much they set aside for payroll taxes, sales taxes, etc. because those are lumped into operational expenses. But, because everyone is hot on GE's Federal Income Tax bill, they broke out that section and specifically addressed it in their latest 10-K. Again, not as good as reviewing a tax return, but it is literally as close as the public is ever going to get. There is not an administration now or ever in the future that will force a non-governmental, for-profit entity to release their returns. The slippery slope involved is too massive to imagine.


Simple rule to address this:  Electronic version of the tax return must be made available to every shareholder.  No slippery slope there.  I own a chunk of the company, such filings should be made available to shareholders.
 
2014-04-25 12:27:46 PM  

MadHatter500: Electronic version of the tax return must be made available to every shareholder.  No slippery slope there.  I own a chunk of the company, such filings should be made available to shareholders.


Why? The Tax Return has no bearing on your investment in the company. The 10-K contains all of the information that an investor would need in order to make an informed decision about whether or not to invest in the company. GE also makes annual reports to Shareholders that list the pertinent information required to make informed investment decisions. If you were to look at the tax return, the average person wouldn't be able to make enough sense of it to make that informed decision.

Even if the return was made available to you as a shareholder, you would likely be required to sign an NDA dictating that you will not release any part or portion of that return public or available to anyone who does not have a financial stake in the company. It's not a simple rule change. It would require a whole host of laws and regulations to change the current balance structure between public company fiduciary compliance and the right of the shareholders to privacy in their financial dealings.
 
2014-04-25 12:33:29 PM  

impaler: Uncertainty isn't a pit. Uncertainty is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, they cling to the realm or the gods or love. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.


img.fark.net
 
2014-04-25 01:00:40 PM  
FTA

A: "Last week, the firm released financial figures which showed a rise in profits"

B:   "Obamacare's devastation is so far-reaching that it is now having a tangible, real-world negative affect on one of the world's largest and most diversified companies,"

!

Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!
 
2014-04-25 03:41:56 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: impaler: In case anyone was wondering were the "GE pays no taxes" idea came from:
Link

Hard to believe that was 3 years ago already. But yeah, no taxes in fiscal years 2009/2010 isn't that hard to believe.

That piece is considered a hack job by most accountants and tax people in my industry. You cannot read a 10-K and know  for sure what any company's eventual tax bill will be. You can make educated guesses, but the folks at the NYT didn't even have the education necessary to make the guesses. They relied on facial "evidence" and ran with it. By the time that GE had responded and ProPublica had put out their rebuttal, the idea that GE pays no taxes and actually got a $3.2B refund was ingrained in the impressionable minds of those that had their minds already made up that GE was/is the pure embodiment of evil.


Yeah, whatever. Like I'm going to trust what a tax accountant knows about taxes. You're just a shill for the industry, like that asshole pediatrician who keeps whining that I sh

I get all my corporate tax knowledge from Rolling Stone magazine, thank you very much.
 
2014-04-25 03:42:54 PM  
should let my kids get vaccinated.

/farking fat fingers
 
2014-04-25 06:36:37 PM  
Of course GE would lose zillions with Obamacare.  Being a politically conservative company
(think of all those defense contracts), they probably opposed it tooth-and-nail and never
considered even offering it to their workers...this is probably the best story Samsung has seen
in years.  (As for Nelson Muntz:  "HA HA!")
 
2014-04-25 06:43:40 PM  
Quelle surprise.
Over the next few years, every CEO whose business does well, will take credit for his genius business acumen.
Over the same time period, every CEO whose business does poorly will blame Obamacare.
Book it.
Done.
 
2014-04-25 07:31:43 PM  
Having listened to the recording, I'd characterize the exchange as a non-answer to a rhetorical question, typical of shareholder meeting or conference call.  This did not merit a story.
 
2014-04-25 08:43:41 PM  

vpb: That was blamed on companies and hospitals holding back on purchases of GE equipment out of concern over how bad Obamacare will hit their profit margins.

Actually, Obamacare isn't funded by hospitals and it increases their customer base and protects them from indigent patients.  I can see how there would be uncertainly about how much their profits will increase.


yes, hospitals are THRILLED about ACA. dumbass.
 
2014-04-25 08:53:01 PM  

vpb: That was blamed on companies and hospitals holding back on purchases of GE equipment out of concern over how bad Obamacare will hit their profit margins.

Actually, Obamacare isn't funded by hospitals and it increases their customer base and protects them from indigent patients.  I can see how there would be uncertainly about how much their profits will increase.


work for a hospital. We were VERY cautious and budgeted our tightest budget in years just to see what happens.

Basically it comes down to the fact that hospitals are hugely reliant on Medicaid/Medicare and the payments were reduced.

Since no one knew for sure how many people would get insurance, we were holding onto our butts but we also did get Medicaid expansion in our state.

It all worked out fine though and we made more profit than we budgeted (not a ton more), so we are fine. I suspect most hospitals did the same thing and didn't budget in new million dollar GE purchases.

I do expect there to be layoffs in hospitals in states that didn't get the medicaid expansion due to reduced payments and no new eligible people. If there are layoffs, it'll be in the next couple of months now that the quarterly reports hit.

We will see soon.
 
2014-04-25 09:25:43 PM  
It's not unusual for Jeff Immelt to make derpy comments. He likes to parrot the pro Wall St talking points of Republicans in the media. Maybe he drinks the cool-aid and believes all that crap, or maybe he's feeding the analysts and financial reporters a story they want to hear so he doesn't have to answer hard questions about why the division is performing below par.
 
2014-04-25 10:03:08 PM  

Diogenes: Shareholders have their place in our economy.  But we've allowed the relationships between businesses and their shareholders to move from symbiotic to parasitic.  It's not sustainable.


i307.photobucket.com
 
2014-04-26 09:02:44 AM  

DrPainMD: Diogenes: Shareholders have their place in our economy.  But we've allowed the relationships between businesses and their shareholders to move from symbiotic to parasitic.  It's not sustainable.

[i307.photobucket.com image 300x188]


DrPainMD,

Diogenic says the truth.Too many companies are now working to please shareholders and short term profit.

As for Immelt, this SOB was one of the reasons why incandescent bulbs were banned. The whole thing was profit driven, and has nothing to do with the environment. He admitted it.
 
2014-04-26 09:58:08 AM  

MadHatter500: The_Six_Fingered_Man: nocturnal001: The_Six_Fingered_Man: clkeagle: Diogenes: Let him pay their taxes.  Then maybe he can have a seat at the grownups' table and join the discussion.  Otherwise STFU.

GE pays taxes?

They sure do.

From the 2013 10-K (which is not the same as a tax return, but unless GE releases that, this is the best we have to go on):

Consolidated current tax expense includes amounts applicable to U.S. federal income taxes of $85 million, $685 million and $1,079 million in 2013, 2012 and 2011, respectively, including the benefit from GECC deductions and credits applied against GE's current U.S. tax expense.

So, over the past 3 years, GE has set aside $1,849,000,000.00 in Federal income tax expense. That's $1.849 BILLION.

That's just income taxes. That does not include State, Local, Sales, Excise, Payroll taxes, etc.

I've not seen the 10-K and I wasn't aware the breakdowns were actually publicly available.  I do admit that zero was quite an exaggeration in either case.

I can easily make an argument about their very low effective rate though.

The 10-K is available on GE's website. The breakdown that you are looking for is not in there, but having experience in the field, I was able to zero in on the information that everyone is talking about. I couldn't tell you how much they set aside for payroll taxes, sales taxes, etc. because those are lumped into operational expenses. But, because everyone is hot on GE's Federal Income Tax bill, they broke out that section and specifically addressed it in their latest 10-K. Again, not as good as reviewing a tax return, but it is literally as close as the public is ever going to get. There is not an administration now or ever in the future that will force a non-governmental, for-profit entity to release their returns. The slippery slope involved is too massive to imagine.

Simple rule to address this:  Electronic version of the tax return must be made available to every shareholder.  No slippery slope there ...


Um, no!   There's a difference between a SEC mandated financial accounting report and an IRS corporate income tax return.  I'm a retired IRS agent and have seen the corporate income tax returns of some of the largest corporations in the country.  Try to imagine 15 to 20 4' binders filled with documents.  The companies are most definitely not making that information public. BTW, net profit does not equal taxable income.
 
2014-04-26 10:02:27 AM  

EvilEgg: "Uncertainty"  is a constant in business.  It is your job as CEO to deal with it.  You will never find certainty in business, if you can't deal with it get out.


He IS dealing with it, and the steps that have to be taken to mitigate the risk that results from uncertainty always hurt the bottom line. You can't know whether you're going to get into a car crash on a given day so because of that uncertainty you buy insurance, which reduces your personal bottom line. You're correct that you never have certainty in business, but it can come in greater or lesser amounts and he's saying that there's a lot right now.
 
2014-04-26 10:57:44 AM  

monoski: So not sure how having more insured people in the health care arena leads to less revenue for hospitals which then leads to them purchasing less equipment from GE.

Seems like more patients with insurance would reduce the amount the hospitals need to write off combined with an increase in people seeking care utilizing more services such as GE's imaging technology seems like a win for the companies.


That depends on how much the insurance companies Actually reimburse the hospitals and how many people actually pay the insurance companies.
 
2014-04-26 02:46:47 PM  

impaler: Uncertainty isn't a pit. Uncertainty is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, they cling to the realm or the gods or love. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.


That's amazingly beautiful. Is it yours?

// for realsies.
 
2014-04-26 03:00:41 PM  

TheSwissNavy: vpb: That was blamed on companies and hospitals holding back on purchases of GE equipment out of concern over how bad Obamacare will hit their profit margins.

Actually, Obamacare isn't funded by hospitals and it increases their customer base and protects them from indigent patients.  I can see how there would be uncertainly about how much their profits will increase.

yes, hospitals are THRILLED about ACA. dumbass.


No really, they are actually fine with it.
 
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