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(CNN)   Apparently when you build extra cabins on top of a ferry and carry three times as much cargo as is safe, it can fall over and sink. Who knew?   (cnn.com) divider line 65
    More: Dumbass, A South Korean, ferry, yellow ribbon, South Korean government, crew members  
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11380 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Apr 2014 at 1:25 PM (21 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-24 10:34:30 AM
The important thing is: now we know. Because knowing is half the battle.
 
2014-04-24 10:49:56 AM

Delta1212: The important thing is: now we know. Because knowing is half the battle.


They already knew, it was carrying 3 times the cargo load it was supposed to after the addition.  There are going to be criminal charges.

Another tragedy, as if there aren't enough, the vice principal of the school survived and killed himself.  That's really sad.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-04-24 11:22:58 AM
The technical term is "metacentric height."
 
2014-04-24 11:39:15 AM
Ah, yes, Lake George Syndrome writ large.
 
2014-04-24 11:59:22 AM
See, the hand of the free market has corrected this problem. Job killing regulations are still not needed.
 
2014-04-24 12:02:02 PM
Archimedes?
 
2014-04-24 12:09:41 PM

nekom: Another tragedy, as if there aren't enough, the vice principal of the school survived and killed himself. That's really sad.


It's a shame this notion of Honour isn't more widespread.
 
2014-04-24 12:12:23 PM

sno man: nekom: Another tragedy, as if there aren't enough, the vice principal of the school survived and killed himself. That's really sad.

It's a shame this notion of Honour isn't more widespread.


If it were in any way his fault, I could see that.  He just decided on the trip, he didn't overload the boat himself.  But in any case, he made his decision, I just find it quite sad.
 
2014-04-24 12:20:49 PM

nekom: sno man: nekom: Another tragedy, as if there aren't enough, the vice principal of the school survived and killed himself. That's really sad.

It's a shame this notion of Honour isn't more widespread.

If it were in any way his fault, I could see that.  He just decided on the trip, he didn't overload the boat himself.  But in any case, he made his decision, I just find it quite sad.


Agreed, not his fault other than being "the guy in charge of the kids", as in not his fault for this disaster at all.  He couldn't live with the guilt of having survived while so many of the kids under his watch did not.  More should have his sense of responsibility and honour. This type of thing might happen less often.
 
2014-04-24 12:29:13 PM

dittybopper: Ah, yes, Lake George Syndrome writ large.


I'll see your Lake George and raise you the SS Eastland.
 
2014-04-24 12:41:18 PM

sno man: nekom: sno man: nekom: Another tragedy, as if there aren't enough, the vice principal of the school survived and killed himself. That's really sad.

It's a shame this notion of Honour isn't more widespread.

If it were in any way his fault, I could see that.  He just decided on the trip, he didn't overload the boat himself.  But in any case, he made his decision, I just find it quite sad.

Agreed, not his fault other than being "the guy in charge of the kids", as in not his fault for this disaster at all.  He couldn't live with the guilt of having survived while so many of the kids under his watch did not.  More should have his sense of responsibility and honour. This type of thing might happen less often.


Confucian morality is consequence based not intent based - hence the suicide. While it may seem honorable there's not much we would want to adopt from Korean culture. Its arguable that Korean adherence to hierarchy actually contributed to the deaths.
 
2014-04-24 01:29:28 PM

Tigger: Its arguable that Korean adherence to hierarchy actually contributed to the deaths.


Very much that. See also; Asiana flight 214
 
2014-04-24 01:31:26 PM
Kerplunk
It sunk
Like a little
Hunk of junk


/old school rhyme
 
2014-04-24 01:31:31 PM
So... the higher the weight, the less stability the ship has?

I'll be damned. Learn something every day.
 
2014-04-24 01:32:16 PM

KarmicDisaster: See, the hand of the free market has corrected this problem. Job killing regulations are still not needed.


This is a result of an engineer putting his PE stamp on something improperly, or an unscrupulous person loading the vessel against its design limits. Unless you put a government agent at every dock, someone will do this eventually. And I would reckon that with the level of regulation in the US, it's amazing this could happen at all in Worst Korea.
 
2014-04-24 01:33:35 PM

KarmicDisaster: See, the hand of the free market has corrected this problem. Job killing regulations are still not needed.


Exactly.
 
2014-04-24 01:36:16 PM

Delta1212: The important thing is: now we know. Because knowing is half the battle.


Quite true, now let's never speak of this again.
 
2014-04-24 01:36:27 PM
A good watch on Netflix:
www.hamiltonbook.com

They go into excellent detail on the newest designs of cruise ships, which are designed taller than ever before, pack in more people and have a much more comfortable & smooth ride for the passengers, but have a funny habit of rolling over in rough weather.

/leaves on a trans-Atlantic cruise next week.
 
2014-04-24 01:41:28 PM

Delta1212: The important thing is: now we know. Because knowing is half the battle.


The more important thing is how many porkchop sandwiches were lost?
 
2014-04-24 01:42:17 PM

nekom: Delta1212: The important thing is: now we know. Because knowing is half the battle.

They already knew, it was carrying 3 times the cargo load it was supposed to after the addition.  There are going to be criminal charges.

Another tragedy, as if there aren't enough, the vice principal of the school survived and killed himself.  That's really sad.


Did I just miss it or was there nothing about the large cargo load in TFA?  It even said it wasn't overloaded and they don't know if the extra cabins affected anything.  Or is this headline just with the completely wrong article?

/welcometofark.jpg
 
2014-04-24 01:43:17 PM
rolladuck:
This is a result of an engineer putting his PE stamp on something improperly, or an unscrupulous person loading the vessel against its design limits. Unless you put a government agent at every dock, someone will do this eventually. And I would reckon that with the level of regulation in the US, it's amazing this could happen at all in Worst Korea.

Harsh penalties might deter unscrupulous people from doing such things.  China would probably execute somebody over something like this, violation of the public trust and all that.  Worst Korea does have the death penalty, but I doubt they will execute anyone over this.  Unless somehow this fits their criteria of murder.
 
2014-04-24 01:44:33 PM
CruJones:
Did I just miss it or was there nothing about the large cargo load in TFA?  It even said it wasn't overloaded and they don't know if the extra cabins affected anything.  Or is this headline just with the completely wrong article?

Another article mentions it, but yet another says officials "will release the cargo information once it has been confirmed" so I guess put that back in the maybe pile for now.
 
2014-04-24 01:48:11 PM
I guess they didn't respect the plimsoll line.
 
2014-04-24 01:53:36 PM

ZAZ: The technical term is "metacentric height."


Came here to say this.

They should have known better, and the company that signed off on the mods (in exchange for a generous "inspection fee") will probably be out of business before summer.
 
2014-04-24 01:53:39 PM

nekom: CruJones:
Did I just miss it or was there nothing about the large cargo load in TFA?  It even said it wasn't overloaded and they don't know if the extra cabins affected anything.  Or is this headline just with the completely wrong article?

Another article mentions it, but yet another says officials "will release the cargo information once it has been confirmed" so I guess put that back in the maybe pile for now.


So what we actually know is this: the ship sank, and it may have been caused by something that resulted in the sinking. We're just waiting on the specifics.
 
2014-04-24 01:54:31 PM

sno man: nekom: Another tragedy, as if there aren't enough, the vice principal of the school survived and killed himself. That's really sad.

It's a shame this notion of Honour isn't more widespread.


there'd be no one left in the united states congress.
 
2014-04-24 01:55:27 PM
Here you have schools of fish but in nonsoviet Korea they fish for schools!
 
2014-04-24 01:56:34 PM
Why I won't get on a ferry boat in a third world country...
 
2014-04-24 01:57:19 PM
Well that was a whole lot of useless info.
 
2014-04-24 01:58:52 PM

JackieRabbit: Why I won't get on a ferry boat in a third world country...


South Korea is third world? Am I feeding a troll?
 
2014-04-24 02:01:50 PM
This articl

nekom: CruJones:
Did I just miss it or was there nothing about the large cargo load in TFA?  It even said it wasn't overloaded and they don't know if the extra cabins affected anything.  Or is this headline just with the completely wrong article?

Another article mentions it, but yet another says officials "will release the cargo information once it has been confirmed" so I guess put that back in the maybe pile for now.


Other articles treat the loading as confirmed, based on a radio communication to the Korean Shipping Association declaring the load to be 3,608 tons when it left the port, and the Korean Register giving the max recommended cargo as 987 tons. Investigators still haven't confirmed that the ship is endangered, let alone that it sunk...reporters have to get their info from other sources.
 
2014-04-24 02:02:56 PM
FTFA:

"...the third grade, the final year of high school in South Korea... "


Well, there's your problem.


RIP, innocent kids.
 
2014-04-24 02:06:24 PM

Delta1212: The important thing is: now we know. Because knowing is half the battle.



GI JOOOOOOOOOOEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

/got nothing
 
2014-04-24 02:09:46 PM

Gordian Cipher: dittybopper: Ah, yes, Lake George Syndrome writ large.

I'll see your Lake George and raise you the SS Eastland.



On a related note, S.K. also had the Sampoong Dept. Store collapse in 1995 that killed 502.  Why don't we just cut out some support columns to make room for escalators, add another floor, then plop down a huge AC unit on top?  What could go wrong?

If it's true about the overloading, I would expect to see criminal charges against the folks loading the cargo, dock workers, etc.  If you've ever see a large ship, you may have noticed the Plimsoll Line, those small lines and numbers painted on the hull near the waterline.  These lines give a quick reference to the loading of a ship; the closer to the Plimsoll Line, the closer to the ship's rated cargo capacity.  The numbers indicate depth in feet to the keel.

I find it hard to believe that no cargo handler or dock worker noticed the ship had exceeded its Plimsoll Line, and thus was overloaded, especially 3x the rated capacity!  This would have put it far lower in the water than usual (unless it was often overloaded and people were simply used to that).

Lots of folks are going to go to prison over this.
 
2014-04-24 02:13:34 PM
Not to mention putting an inexperienced Third Mate at the controls.

/watches NHK World on his Roku.
//also, ferries aren't very good at sharp cornering.
 
2014-04-24 02:14:19 PM

Tigger: He couldn't live with the guilt of having survived while so many of the kids under his watch did not.  More should have his sense of responsibility and honour. This type of thing might happen less often.



Yes, all the people with a sense of responsibility and honour need to kill themselves, even though they did absolutely nothing dishonourable or irresponsible, because that will make this type of thing happen less often.

Oh wait, perhaps the responsible and honourable thing to do would be to continue to stand his post as vice-principal like a grown man, and do whatever he could to help the community after all the kids got killed. Certainly not make the tragedy all about himself. Boo Hoo. I dishonor house of father by knowing how to swim.

That's why the English call suicide the coward's way out.
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2014-04-24 02:14:50 PM
And since this isn't happening in the U.S. then actual negligent corporate executives will go jail for reckless endangerment.  WOW WHAT A COUNTRY!
 
2014-04-24 02:17:23 PM

indy_kid: Gordian Cipher: dittybopper: Ah, yes, Lake George Syndrome writ large.

I'll see your Lake George and raise you the SS Eastland.


On a related note, S.K. also had the Sampoong Dept. Store collapse in 1995 that killed 502.  Why don't we just cut out some support columns to make room for escalators, add another floor, then plop down a huge AC unit on top?  What could go wrong?

If it's true about the overloading, I would expect to see criminal charges against the folks loading the cargo, dock workers, etc.  If you've ever see a large ship, you may have noticed the Plimsoll Line, those small lines and numbers painted on the hull near the waterline.  These lines give a quick reference to the loading of a ship; the closer to the Plimsoll Line, the closer to the ship's rated cargo capacity.  The numbers indicate depth in feet to the keel.

I find it hard to believe that no cargo handler or dock worker noticed the ship had exceeded its Plimsoll Line, and thus was overloaded, especially 3x the rated capacity!  This would have put it far lower in the water than usual (unless it was often overloaded and people were simply used to that).

Lots of folks are going to go to prison over this.


If they made the modifications we're hearing about, it's entirely possible the Plimsoll line was wrong. Since its a chart painted on by the building shipyard, correcting it for major modifications is no trivial matter.

So, it's possible the loaders did respect the Plimsoll line, but the Plimsoll line didn't respect the new metacentric height.
 
2014-04-24 02:21:42 PM

someonelse: JackieRabbit: Why I won't get on a ferry boat in a third world country...

South Korea is third world? Am I feeding a troll?


Yes.
 
2014-04-24 02:24:29 PM

dittybopper: Ah, yes, Lake George Syndrome writ large.


my grandfather and his lady friend were both on that boat and both, miraculously, survived.

Big thanks to the boaters that pulled them out of the water and the Ilitch family for sending the private jet to bring my grandfather home.  Big FU to the press that had staked out his house and bombarded him the second the car got in the driveway.  Big DIAF to the boat owners who should be flayed alive but are going to skate.
 
2014-04-24 02:24:50 PM
Ships of his size should use their ballast tanks to steady the hull. Often they don't in order to increase speed and conserve fuel.
 
2014-04-24 02:29:40 PM

someonelse: JackieRabbit: Why I won't get on a ferry boat in a third world country...

South Korea is third world? Am I feeding a troll?


Not trolling. S. Korea only recently lost the designation as a third world country, owing to their relatively booming economy and, of course, a lot of development by the US over the last 60 years. Yet in many ways, it is still functions very much like a third world country, only without the widespread grinding poverty. I used the term only because in the last five years there have been a number of ferry accidents and most of them have been in third world countries and those with rather lax maritime regulations.
 
2014-04-24 02:29:42 PM
A Yellow Ribbon tag? Racist.
 
2014-04-24 02:46:59 PM

JackieRabbit: someonelse: JackieRabbit: Why I won't get on a ferry boat in a third world country...

South Korea is third world? Am I feeding a troll?

Not trolling. S. Korea only recently lost the designation as a third world country, owing to their relatively booming economy and, of course, a lot of development by the US over the last 60 years. Yet in many ways, it is still functions very much like a third world country, only without the widespread grinding poverty. I used the term only because in the last five years there have been a number of ferry accidents and most of them have been in third world countries and those with rather lax maritime regulations.


h in the world for GDP.
 
2014-04-24 02:48:28 PM

Russ1642: JackieRabbit: someonelse: JackieRabbit: Why I won't get on a ferry boat in a third world country...

South Korea is third world? Am I feeding a troll?

Not trolling. S. Korea only recently lost the designation as a third world country, owing to their relatively booming economy and, of course, a lot of development by the US over the last 60 years. Yet in many ways, it is still functions very much like a third world country, only without the widespread grinding poverty. I used the term only because in the last five years there have been a number of ferry accidents and most of them have been in third world countries and those with rather lax maritime regulations.

h in the world for GDP.


Some kind of weird bug with the filter I guess. Should say fifteenth in the world for GDP.
 
2014-04-24 02:59:42 PM
Did the "Obvious" tag sink, as well?
 
2014-04-24 03:01:08 PM
Among other things, investigators have said they will look into whether modifications to the ship in 2013 could have altered the ship's balance and contributed to what happened.

So apparently there is no technical inspection agency for ships?

I have to take my car every two years to a government mandated checkup and can change nothing on it without extensive tests or a writ that the part has been approved to use in my car...

Then again, I live in Germany and we love rules.
 
2014-04-24 03:01:42 PM
A boat sunk in Korea?  Who knew?!
 
2014-04-24 03:02:54 PM

ZAZ: The technical term is "metacentric height."


Private_Citizen: ZAZ: The technical term is "metacentric height."

Came here to say this.

They should have known better, and the company that signed off on the mods (in exchange for a generous "inspection fee") will probably be out of business before summer.


How you two doin'?

Operative word is Righting Arm (here, the line GZ):

img.fark.net

The Righting Arm represents potential energy to resist further heel (i.e. roll) and gives that energy back to the system by righting the ship from a heel. The Righting Arm increases with the increase in heel for a while, then begins to decrease as heel goes past a "maximum-righting-arm (MRA) angle.  At a certain excessive heel angle dependent on the vessel's current Center of Gravity (CoG), or G in the diagram, and Center of Ballast (B in the diagram), the metacenter will pass under the CoG.  The Righting Arm decreases to zero at that point and changes to a capsizing arm, and there's no stopping it - it actually accelerates from there:

img.fark.net

Given how fast this ferry heeled and stayed heeled into a permanent list, I have to think a massive change in center of ballast happened, along with the already unsafe increase in center-of-gravity height, which made it easy for it to heel far enough for the metacenter to pass under the CoG very quickly... hydrostatic pressure on the hull and natural buoyancy of a mostly-closed vessel kept it afloat a while at that point.  I would image a ballast tank valve blew open, a series of shaft seals failed or something that allowed sudden flooding on the port side of the ship and changed center of ballast, which allowed a cargo shift that changed center of gravity.  At that point, severe list allowed uncontrolled flooding and they should have been abandoning ship immediately.

Seriously, after reading the radio transcript, I can't understand how anyone with their captain's license could not have seen in the first 5 minutes that the righting arm was gone, the situation was not going to recover and they needed to get off the ship - but they stayed talking about help arriving and not evacuating the passengers for 30+ minutes).  I don't care if the water is cold, you've got a chance to survive out there versus much less in a capsizing 500+ft multi-deck ship.  Most people rescued were from the water in small boats that came to help.  The government is right in charging the crew; that principal shouldn't have killed himself, the captain who abandoned the passengers should have to though.
 
2014-04-24 03:06:12 PM

Russ1642: Russ1642: JackieRabbit: someonelse: JackieRabbit: Why I won't get on a ferry boat in a third world country...

South Korea is third world? Am I feeding a troll?

Not trolling. S. Korea only recently lost the designation as a third world country, owing to their relatively booming economy and, of course, a lot of development by the US over the last 60 years. Yet in many ways, it is still functions very much like a third world country, only without the widespread grinding poverty. I used the term only because in the last five years there have been a number of ferry accidents and most of them have been in third world countries and those with rather lax maritime regulations.

h in the world for GDP.

Some kind of weird bug with the filter I guess. Should say fifteenth in the world for GDP.


Yeah, but we cannot go by GDP alone. Mexico comes in at 14, which means that it is a very wealthy nation. But it still has grinding poverty, unbelievable violence, rampant political corruption and cannot be classified as anything other than third world in most aspects. If the average Mexican were reaping the benefits of the country's economic prosperity, so many of them would not risk their lives to come here. S. Korea may not be the dystopia that N. Korea is, but it certainly isn't the land of milk and honey either, which is why so many S. Koreans want to come here.
 
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