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(CNN)   Phoenix VA implemented real-life death panels. Dude, Fark was only kidding about that   (cnn.com) divider line 76
    More: Scary, Phoenix VA, va hospitals, death panels, primary care physicians  
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2737 clicks; posted to Politics » on 24 Apr 2014 at 11:38 AM (13 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-24 09:18:04 AM
Heads should roll. Figuratively or literally, take your pick.

Also, before anyone says Obama:

Foote says the Phoenix wait times reported back to Washington were entirely fictitious. "So then when they did that, they would report to Washington, 'Oh yeah. We're makin' our appointments within -- within 10 days, within the 14-day frame,' when in reality it had been six, nine, in some cases 21 months," he said.

Reports were being falsified. It would be good to at least have some regular record auditing going on.

/this wouldn't be a problem at all if we hadn't gotten into two wars overseas.
 
2014-04-24 09:35:20 AM
Okay first this is a horrible thing and I am sure it is happening in other VA hospitals/clinics nation wide.
Example in my office when someone is seen for Diabetic Foot care they leave are office with their next appointment made, if they are seen up the road at the VA clinic they are not given an appointment they are instructed to call in 2 months to make their appointment, which is usually several weeks or months later.

That aside this doesn't real count as a death panel does it?
I thought a Death panel was an actual panel who decided who got care and who was given palliative care?  This secret list doesn't appear to be a list of patients who will not get care because it is not cost effective but just a list of people who will eventually get care when they get around to it.
 
2014-04-24 09:43:08 AM
spongeboob:

That aside this doesn't real count as a death panel does it?
I thought a Death panel was an actual panel who decided who got care and who was given palliative care?  This secret list doesn't appear to be a list of patients who will not get care because it is not cost effective but just a list of people who will eventually get care when they get around to it.


The only law originally in the ACA that even came remotely close to death panels was about reimbursing doctors who voluntarily provided end-of-life information to people on Medicare. Things like living wills and end-of-life care.

There was NEVER any sort of ethics panel that decided who lived or died, EVER, in the Healthcare law.

In this case, you simply had people who couldn't get access to care and died as a result. That is certainly tragic, but nowhere near a death panel.
 
2014-04-24 09:43:44 AM

bdub77: The only law originally in the ACA that even came remotely close to death panels was about reimbursing doctors who voluntarily provided end-of-life information to people on Medicare. Things like living wills and end-of-life care.


Also this provision was removed from the final bill, so it doesn't exist in any form.
 
2014-04-24 10:01:11 AM

bdub77: bdub77: The only law originally in the ACA that even came remotely close to death panels was about reimbursing doctors who voluntarily provided end-of-life information to people on Medicare. Things like living wills and end-of-life care.

Also this provision was removed from the final bill, so it doesn't exist in any form.


So now a PCP will not get reimbursed for taking  the time to explain to people what the different  levels of Advance directive there are available and so patients will believe that they better not sign a living will or Advance directive or that they wont be able to get any medical care.  But a surgeon who puts a PEG tube in someone who only has days to live will.

How many people don't understand that signing a Do Not Resuscitate order doesn't mean you will get no care, unless that is what you want, if you want everything but a tube down your throat and a machine breathing for you, you can specify that.
 
2014-04-24 10:06:00 AM

bdub77: bdub77: The only law originally in the ACA that even came remotely close to death panels was about reimbursing doctors who voluntarily provided end-of-life information to people on Medicare. Things like living wills and end-of-life care.

Also this provision was removed from the final bill, so it doesn't exist in any form.


If that provision did not establish death panels, then why was it removed when Patriots started warning about death panels? Study it out.
 
2014-04-24 10:10:04 AM

Dimensio: bdub77: bdub77: The only law originally in the ACA that even came remotely close to death panels was about reimbursing doctors who voluntarily provided end-of-life information to people on Medicare. Things like living wills and end-of-life care.

Also this provision was removed from the final bill, so it doesn't exist in any form.

If that provision did not establish death panels, then why was it removed when Patriots started warning about death panels? Study it out.


Because Freedoms is why.
 
2014-04-24 10:20:56 AM

Dimensio: bdub77: bdub77: The only law originally in the ACA that even came remotely close to death panels was about reimbursing doctors who voluntarily provided end-of-life information to people on Medicare. Things like living wills and end-of-life care.

Also this provision was removed from the final bill, so it doesn't exist in any form.

If that provision did not establish death panels, then why was it removed when Patriots started warning about death panels? Study it out.


Because by removing that section They can say see there are no death panels we removed everything talking about death, but the actual death panels are in that other section of the Taftcare act, the part that we are not allowed to look at until it goes into effect and then it will be too late all brave Patriots will either be on a Death List or be forced to bare gay babies for gay couples.
 
2014-04-24 10:22:07 AM

spongeboob: That aside this doesn't real count as a death panel does it?


Merely the difference between de jure and de facto.
 
2014-04-24 10:28:39 AM

Diogenes: spongeboob: That aside this doesn't real count as a death panel does it?

Merely the difference between de jure and de facto.


Although if you take the first two letters of "death panel" and reorder the last word of the phrase, it comes out to "de plane".

Coincidence? Doubtful. One might even say it was someone's fantasy.
 
2014-04-24 10:49:42 AM

bdub77: Heads should roll. Figuratively or literally, take your pick.


And guess what?
Not a got damn thing will happen.
 
2014-04-24 11:03:06 AM

Diogenes: spongeboob: That aside this doesn't real count as a death panel does it?

Merely the difference between de jure and de facto.


Wouldn't a de facto death panel be this guy isn't going to get any better let him die, and a de jure would say this guy we can help and this one we can't so move the guy we can help ahead of the guy we can't,  But this is more like we will help these people in the order that they come in but we will just pretend they only came in fourteen days ago rather than fourteen months,
 
2014-04-24 11:08:53 AM

spongeboob: Diogenes: spongeboob: That aside this doesn't real count as a death panel does it?

Merely the difference between de jure and de facto.

Wouldn't a de facto death panel be this guy isn't going to get any better let him die, and a de jure would say this guy we can help and this one we can't so move the guy we can help ahead of the guy we can't,  But this is more like we will help these people in the order that they come in but we will just pretend they only came in fourteen days ago rather than fourteen months,


All I was saying is that whether it's an official body with that charter, or an unofficial process that came into being, doesn't really matter when the end effect is the same.  These delays put people's health and well-being (and sometimes their very lives) in jeopardy.
 
2014-04-24 11:33:33 AM

spongeboob: Dimensio: bdub77: bdub77: The only law originally in the ACA that even came remotely close to death panels was about reimbursing doctors who voluntarily provided end-of-life information to people on Medicare. Things like living wills and end-of-life care.

Also this provision was removed from the final bill, so it doesn't exist in any form.

If that provision did not establish death panels, then why was it removed when Patriots started warning about death panels? Study it out.

Because by removing that section They can say see there are no death panels we removed everything talking about death, but the actual death panels are in that other section of the Taftcare act, the part that we are not allowed to look at until it goes into effect and then it will be too late all brave Patriots will either be on a Death List or be forced to bare gay babies for gay couples.


P...potato?
 
2014-04-24 11:37:22 AM

bdub77: Diogenes: spongeboob: That aside this doesn't real count as a death panel does it?

Merely the difference between de jure and de facto.

Although if you take the first two letters of "death panel" and reorder the last word of the phrase, it comes out to "de plane".

Coincidence? Doubtful. One might even say it was someone's fantasy.


You can do better.  If you remove the "th" from "death panel" because stereotypical gays tend to lisp, you can anagram it into "deep anal".

/Study it out.
 
2014-04-24 11:44:05 AM
The completely amusing thing is republicans trying to pretend there's some magic divide between death and medicine, as if the two weren't so deeply intertwined they are literally inseparable.
 
2014-04-24 11:46:17 AM
Fwd: Fwd: Fwd: 0bama turns VA hospittles into concentration camps for conservative veterinarians
 
2014-04-24 11:46:42 AM
www.camelphotos.com

Them Death Camels are a biatch
 
2014-04-24 11:48:20 AM

bdub77: spongeboob:

That aside this doesn't real count as a death panel does it?
I thought a Death panel was an actual panel who decided who got care and who was given palliative care?  This secret list doesn't appear to be a list of patients who will not get care because it is not cost effective but just a list of people who will eventually get care when they get around to it.

The only law originally in the ACA that even came remotely close to death panels was about reimbursing doctors who voluntarily provided end-of-life information to people on Medicare. Things like living wills and end-of-life care.

There was NEVER any sort of ethics panel that decided who lived or died, EVER, in the Healthcare law.

In this case, you simply had people who couldn't get access to care and died as a result. That is certainly tragic, but nowhere near a death panel.


If you go in for an organ transplant the hospital has panels to determine qualifications including post-care, whether you have any pre-existing conditions (such as a history of alcoholism, etc.), and other factors before you even make it on the list. Unless of course you are wealthy then that all goes out the window. This has been going on well before the ACA was a glimmer in the eyes of the Heritage Foundation.
 
2014-04-24 11:51:42 AM

dittybopper: bdub77: Diogenes: spongeboob: That aside this doesn't real count as a death panel does it?

Merely the difference between de jure and de facto.

Although if you take the first two letters of "death panel" and reorder the last word of the phrase, it comes out to "de plane".

Coincidence? Doubtful. One might even say it was someone's fantasy.

You can do better.  If you remove the "th" from "death panel" because stereotypical gays tend to lisp, you can anagram it into "deep anal".

/Study it out.


Which incidentally was the name of my Deep Purple cover band.
 
2014-04-24 11:51:52 AM
alright, let's see if i follow this correctly from the article. a VA patient comes in, fills out his information on a computer and prints out a paper copy of the information. the computer doesn't save the info. the info is then entered into a computer from the paper copy, and the paper copy is shredded. and the newly entered data is hidden somewhere. sounds too complicated to actually happen.
 
2014-04-24 11:52:27 AM
If the nation's largest insurer, which is also a single-payer program and covers Our Heroes in the Military *herald trumpets* (and nominally not-for-profit), does stuff like this, what chance have the rest of us under a for-profit private system?

// alternatively, "single payer sux and furthermore the squirrels comma"
 
2014-04-24 11:56:41 AM
idontwanttoliveonthisplanetanymore.jpg
 
2014-04-24 11:57:43 AM
Record falsification is a crime. The VA is such a messed up organization. Unfortunately competent hospital administrators are rare (and even rarer in the VA system).
 
2014-04-24 11:58:48 AM

dittybopper: bdub77: Diogenes: spongeboob: That aside this doesn't real count as a death panel does it?

Merely the difference between de jure and de facto.

Although if you take the first two letters of "death panel" and reorder the last word of the phrase, it comes out to "de plane".

Coincidence? Doubtful. One might even say it was someone's fantasy.

You can do better.  If you remove the "th" from "death panel" because stereotypical gays tend to lisp, you can anagram it into "deep anal".

/Study it out.


I laughed a lot harder than I should have at that.
 
2014-04-24 12:01:52 PM
They were too busy monitoring the soda fountain
 
2014-04-24 12:07:27 PM

Epic Fap Session: Fwd: Fwd: Fwd: 0bama turns VA hospittles into concentration camps for conservative veterinarians


I love you
 
2014-04-24 12:17:19 PM
Huge influx of patients from the last two wars, not enough funding to hire more doctors, clerks, nurses, techs, etc. to  actually serve the needs of those veterans.

It occurs to me, that if Congress doesn't want to pay for veteran's care, maybe they should stop making so many veterans.

/increase funding
//hire more docs
 
2014-04-24 12:22:42 PM

bdub77: Heads should roll. Figuratively or literally, take your pick.

Also, before anyone says Obama:

Foote says the Phoenix wait times reported back to Washington were entirely fictitious. "So then when they did that, they would report to Washington, 'Oh yeah. We're makin' our appointments within -- within 10 days, within the 14-day frame,' when in reality it had been six, nine, in some cases 21 months," he said.

Reports were being falsified. It would be good to at least have some regular record auditing going on.

/this wouldn't be a problem at all if we hadn't gotten into two wars overseas.


I'm pregnant but nice try

The truth is that this has been going on likely much longer than just the Obama administration and probably from before GW...but also as likely none of those records exist from before the GWB admin.  In any case the reasons for the fraud would be among the following:

1) VA budget increase tied to performance and honest accurate metrics would get in the way of management goals.
2) VA doesn't want problems to affect or blow-back on extant administration be it Bush or Obama due to the fact that sociopaths in charge of *everything* would likely fire the lower tier sociopaths responsible for the fraud.

Reasons Congress Doesn't Care (aside from that one ineffective committee):

1) You're a meat-sack number and not a political donor #walkitoff
2) You don't vote for all of Congress; feel free to suck their coat-tails
3) You're probably dead anyhow why do you care?
4) Too busy going on Sunday Shows and handing cookies to 'protesters' in Ukraine to care
5) Its an easy mess to hide or ignore because the dead don't protest.

What does this have to do with Obama?

No more than it did with any previous President; also no less.  The President as Commander-in-Chief should be out publicly sticking up for the troops and directing the Attorney General to act.  Instead he's busy doing...not that.  Perhaps he needs another Hawaiian vacation to clear his mind.
 
2014-04-24 12:25:31 PM

bdub77: Heads should roll. Figuratively or literally, take your pick.

Also, before anyone says Obama:

Foote says the Phoenix wait times reported back to Washington were entirely fictitious. "So then when they did that, they would report to Washington, 'Oh yeah. We're makin' our appointments within -- within 10 days, within the 14-day frame,' when in reality it had been six, nine, in some cases 21 months," he said.

Reports were being falsified. It would be good to at least have some regular record auditing going on.

/this wouldn't be a problem at all if we hadn't gotten into two wars overseas.


OBAMA!!!

There, I said it. What you gonna do about it? Wanna step outside? ;-)
 
2014-04-24 12:27:03 PM

Vertdang: Huge influx of patients from the last two wars, not enough funding to hire more doctors, clerks, nurses, techs, etc. to  actually serve the needs of those veterans.

It occurs to me, that if Congress doesn't want to pay for veteran's care, maybe they should stop making so many veterans.

/increase funding
//hire more docs


Read up on the actual issues with the VA. I do agree with you regarding "making veterans," though.
 
2014-04-24 12:30:20 PM
I don't need to read up on them. I'm living them.
 
2014-04-24 12:33:20 PM
Do veterans who reach medicare eligibility have to choose between VA healthcare and Medicare? The part of the story in the video was that they said the veteran refused to be treated anywhere but the VA... why?  I'm certainly not excusing what TFA is describing, but that one story confused me. If you aren't getting what you need at the VA and are 70-something, aren't you enrolled in medicare? Go somewhere else for goodness sakes! Am I missing something here?
 
2014-04-24 12:36:56 PM
I thought the "death panel" was the Medicare thing...that if costs aren't within a certain ratio by 2016 or whatever, that some panel was going to make new rules for who could access certain types of care to control costs...basically more hoops to jump through before sending everyone for an MRI when all they have is a splinter.
 
2014-04-24 12:38:01 PM
Sensational headline is sensational. Not a death panel. I get what you're saying Subs, but it was a little misleading.
 
2014-04-24 12:42:19 PM

Dr Dreidel: If the nation's largest insurer, which is also a single-payer program and covers Our Heroes in the Military *herald trumpets* (and nominally not-for-profit), does stuff like this, what chance have the rest of us under a for-profit private system?


The for profit places want to keep people around so the cash keeps flowing, the non-profit ones don't care?

//AmIRight?
 
2014-04-24 12:43:37 PM

theknuckler_33: Do veterans who reach medicare eligibility have to choose between VA healthcare and Medicare? The part of the story in the video was that they said the veteran refused to be treated anywhere but the VA... why?  I'm certainly not excusing what TFA is describing, but that one story confused me. If you aren't getting what you need at the VA and are 70-something, aren't you enrolled in medicare? Go somewhere else for goodness sakes! Am I missing something here?


The VA actually has higher customer service ratings overall, than private sector healthcare. A lot of the "horror stories" you read about the VA are actually not VA hospitals, but are army and navy facilities run by the DoD, rather than the DoVA.

Granted this is an 06 link, but there are others as well. Stars and stripes had one that I can't find at the moment that was more recent.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/19/AR20 06 011902936.html
 
2014-04-24 12:45:18 PM

theknuckler_33: Do veterans who reach medicare eligibility have to choose between VA healthcare and Medicare? The part of the story in the video was that they said the veteran refused to be treated anywhere but the VA... why?  I'm certainly not excusing what TFA is describing, but that one story confused me. If you aren't getting what you need at the VA and are 70-something, aren't you enrolled in medicare? Go somewhere else for goodness sakes! Am I missing something here?



You can have both
If you have or can get both Medicare and Veterans' benefits, you can get treatment
under either program. When you get health care, you must choose which benefits
to use each time you see a doctor or get health care. Medicare can't pay for the same
service that was covered by Veterans' benefits, and your Veterans' benefits can't
pay for the same service that was covered by Medicare


And appears that you don't have to pay out of pocket at all for VA medical care
If the doctor accepts you as a patient and bills the VA for services, the doctor must
accept the VA's payment as payment in full.
Both quotes from here
 
2014-04-24 12:47:04 PM
Another reason they choose the VA, is many of these guys are long time enlisted.

If you server your 20 years, you're eligible for Tricare Prime, which essentially pays for all of your medical costs. period. Service connected or not.
 
2014-04-24 12:48:25 PM
I'm thinking about getting some nice death paneling installed in my den.
 
2014-04-24 12:50:09 PM

spongeboob: bare gay babies


We're going to need for you to take a seat over there.

bdub77: Which incidentally was the name of my Deep Purple cover band.


Hush.
 
2014-04-24 12:53:39 PM

Vertdang: Another reason they choose the VA, is many of these guys are long time enlisted.

If you server your 20 years, you're eligible for Tricare Prime, which essentially pays for all of your medical costs. period. Service connected or not.


Well, at least I can understand the pull of sticking with the VA, but wouldn't you think there'd come a time when you say "well, it's great that the VA will pick up the tab, but at this point that's like paying for a dinner you're never going to let me eat." ya know? I mean, if I was bleeding out my ass, I'd want to see someone pretty damned fast, VA or not.
 
2014-04-24 12:56:32 PM

spongeboob: Okay first this is a horrible thing and I am sure it is happening in other VA hospitals/clinics nation wide.
Example in my office when someone is seen for Diabetic Foot care they leave are office with their next appointment made, if they are seen up the road at the VA clinic they are not given an appointment they are instructed to call in 2 months to make their appointment, which is usually several weeks or months later.

That aside this doesn't real count as a death panel does it?
I thought a Death panel was an actual panel who decided who got care and who was given palliative care?  This secret list doesn't appear to be a list of patients who will not get care because it is not cost effective but just a list of people who will eventually get care when they get around to it.


Is this the 'death panels' people decried in the ACA stuff?  No.

Is this a death panel?  fark goddamn yes.

This is a list of people, kept secret.  Then, once they actually get scheduled a NEW list is made, it's recorded, and people just pretend the NEW list is the FIRST list, and the FIRST list never existed.  This is a bunch of people hiding the need of their own facility.

Now, in any other business, can you think of a situation where a company would literally be hiding evidence that it needs to be made bigger, and have more financial strength?
 
2014-04-24 12:58:21 PM

theknuckler_33: Vertdang: Another reason they choose the VA, is many of these guys are long time enlisted.

If you server your 20 years, you're eligible for Tricare Prime, which essentially pays for all of your medical costs. period. Service connected or not.

Well, at least I can understand the pull of sticking with the VA, but wouldn't you think there'd come a time when you say "well, it's great that the VA will pick up the tab, but at this point that's like paying for a dinner you're never going to let me eat." ya know? I mean, if I was bleeding out my ass, I'd want to see someone pretty damned fast, VA or not.


That's the ER. What the article is talking about basically amounts to general practitioner care. You go up to the ER w/ a case like bleeding out your ass, you're going to be seen immediately. Standard triage, in that case.
 
2014-04-24 12:59:52 PM

spongeboob: How many people don't understand that signing a Do Not Resuscitate order doesn't mean you will get no care, unless that is what you want, if you want everything but a tube down your throat and a machine breathing for you, you can specify that.


CSB time.

My partner is finishing up his residency, and is doing research into end of life and palliative care. He created a short educational video to be shown to patients that are admitted to the hospital that may qualify explaining what DNR and DNI (do not intubate) are, and explaining that signing a DNR or DNI order does not mean that they will not receive life saving care... simply that should they die, resuscitation (particularly CPR) will not be attempted, or that they will not be intubated which has shown to have negative outcomes for those types of patients. He's really getting a lot of good attention in our area for it, and many hospitals are considering adopting the video. They're even asking him to work on other educational videos to show patients as they're admitted because the quality and tone of his video were so good.

Super proud of him.
 
2014-04-24 01:01:24 PM

Vertdang: theknuckler_33: Vertdang: Another reason they choose the VA, is many of these guys are long time enlisted.

If you server your 20 years, you're eligible for Tricare Prime, which essentially pays for all of your medical costs. period. Service connected or not.

Well, at least I can understand the pull of sticking with the VA, but wouldn't you think there'd come a time when you say "well, it's great that the VA will pick up the tab, but at this point that's like paying for a dinner you're never going to let me eat." ya know? I mean, if I was bleeding out my ass, I'd want to see someone pretty damned fast, VA or not.

That's the ER. What the article is talking about basically amounts to general practitioner care. You go up to the ER w/ a case like bleeding out your ass, you're going to be seen immediately. Standard triage, in that case.


I'm talking about the story in TFA (it was blood in the urine, my bad). They DID go to the ER and DID get seen, but was sent home to see a PCP with *urgent* and *within a week* in his chart.  After a week is up and the VA doesn't arrange an appointment, wouldn't you think you'd pursue other options?
 
2014-04-24 01:04:26 PM

bdub77: Heads should roll. Figuratively or literally, take your pick.


Perhaps we should establish some sort of group, like a council or something, to determine exactly which heads should roll?
 
2014-04-24 01:07:00 PM

Vertdang: Another reason they choose the VA, is many of these guys are long time enlisted.

If you server your 20 years, you're eligible for Tricare Prime, which essentially pays for all of your medical costs. period. Service connected or not.


It is still costs and has copays if you can't get to a Military Treatment Facility, (or they can't treat you as in my case) at least to the cap ($3k), and out of pocket on Meds that aren't in the formulary. VA eats it all, but good farking luck getting an appointment.

I deal with  "well use your Tricare" from the VA (and the "VA has a doc that does that" from tricare) at least once a quarter.  MacDill does not have an Interventional Cardiologist despite what the VA says, and My co-pay to see one in town is $150 a visit if I use Tricare. So I wait for the VA.
 
2014-04-24 01:08:35 PM

Sirsky: spongeboob: How many people don't understand that signing a Do Not Resuscitate order doesn't mean you will get no care, unless that is what you want, if you want everything but a tube down your throat and a machine breathing for you, you can specify that.

CSB time.

My partner is finishing up his residency, and is doing research into end of life and palliative care. He created a short educational video to be shown to patients that are admitted to the hospital that may qualify explaining what DNR and DNI (do not intubate) are, and explaining that signing a DNR or DNI order does not mean that they will not receive life saving care... simply that should they die, resuscitation (particularly CPR) will not be attempted, or that they will not be intubated which has shown to have negative outcomes for those types of patients. He's really getting a lot of good attention in our area for it, and many hospitals are considering adopting the video. They're even asking him to work on other educational videos to show patients as they're admitted because the quality and tone of his video were so good.

Super proud of him.


Totes sincere cool storyyou should be ptoud of him
 
2014-04-24 01:10:10 PM

theknuckler_33: Vertdang: theknuckler_33: Vertdang: Another reason they choose the VA, is many of these guys are long time enlisted.

If you server your 20 years, you're eligible for Tricare Prime, which essentially pays for all of your medical costs. period. Service connected or not.

Well, at least I can understand the pull of sticking with the VA, but wouldn't you think there'd come a time when you say "well, it's great that the VA will pick up the tab, but at this point that's like paying for a dinner you're never going to let me eat." ya know? I mean, if I was bleeding out my ass, I'd want to see someone pretty damned fast, VA or not.

That's the ER. What the article is talking about basically amounts to general practitioner care. You go up to the ER w/ a case like bleeding out your ass, you're going to be seen immediately. Standard triage, in that case.

I'm talking about the story in TFA (it was blood in the urine, my bad). They DID go to the ER and DID get seen, but was sent home to see a PCP with *urgent* and *within a week* in his chart.  After a week is up and the VA doesn't arrange an appointment, wouldn't you think you'd pursue other options?


Yeah, the whole "so proud of his military service that he would go nowhere but the VA for treatment" excuse is pathetic.  He and his family let him die, when it could have been easily prevented.

None of which excuses the Phoenix VA's/hospital's disgusting acts.  The individuals involved need to end up in prison, any doctors involved who don't go to prison need to lose their licenses, and the hospital and everyone involved should be sued into the ground.
 
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