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(The Local)   Germany warns of war in Europe. This is not a repeat from 1938   (thelocal.de) divider line 184
    More: Interesting, Europe, Prime Minister of France, newspapers in Switzerland, Angela Merkel, vice chancellors  
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11914 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Apr 2014 at 1:46 PM (44 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



184 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-04-23 08:54:59 AM  
The military-industrial complex has to turn a profit, subby.  Think of all the jobs in weapons factories and in the military that would be lost if we didn't have a war.
 
2014-04-23 10:05:06 AM  
I gotta be honest, I really did Nazi that coming.
 
2014-04-23 10:10:41 AM  
As I recall, getting in a fight with Russia didn't work out so well for Germany last time

/just sayin'
 
2014-04-23 10:13:21 AM  

bdub77: I gotta be honest, I really did Nazi that coming.


Oh god. I laughed at that. I need more coffee
 
2014-04-23 10:38:36 AM  
well, crap.
 
2014-04-23 10:44:27 AM  
Deutschland uber alles!!
 
2014-04-23 11:20:45 AM  
Probably not a good idea, modmins, to greenlight a 9-day-old story about a situation that changes from day to day.
 
2014-04-23 12:00:14 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: As I recall, getting in a fight with Russia didn't work out so well for Germany last time

/just sayin'


Actually, it did work out well for them.  Until their allies the Japanese screwed them over in two distinct ways:

1. They attacked the United States, which meant that the US wasn't just a bystander anymore.  This meant billions of aid (in today's dollars) to the Soviet Union, without which they couldn't have fought effectively against the Germans.  It would have been a reprise of the Eastern Front of WWI, when the Russians had to sue for peace.

2, They failed to keep dozens of Soviet Army divisions pinned in the Far East.  By not going to war with the Soviet Union, and by not *ACTING* like they were going to, they let the Soviets move those divisions across the largest country in the World by rail in order to counter the Wehrmacht.
 
2014-04-23 12:10:40 PM  
FFS, France and Germany are talking about joining forces and mobilizing against Russia.
And so it begins.
 
2014-04-23 12:39:28 PM  
forums.rennlist.com
 
2014-04-23 12:43:43 PM  
Published: 14 Apr 2014 15:23 GMT+02:00
Updated: 14 Apr 2014 15:23 GMT+02:00



old news is so exciting.  although the article still does apply.
 
2014-04-23 01:38:06 PM  
Good.  Let Europe police their own back yard for once.
 
2014-04-23 01:48:22 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: As I recall, getting in a fight with Russia didn't work out so well for Germany last time

/just sayin'


Did the first go around.
 
2014-04-23 01:49:06 PM  
Let me buy my imports before it starts....
 
2014-04-23 01:50:36 PM  
Well, obviously, Subby. In '38 Germany said there wouldn't be war in Europe.
 
2014-04-23 01:51:26 PM  

xanadian: The military-industrial complex has to turn a profit, subby.  Think of all the jobs in weapons factories and in the military that would be lost if we didn't have a war.


Yeah, it's all a big conspiracy.

It has nothing to do with the Russians being aggressive and reminding Europe of 1939.

dittybopper: 2, They failed to keep dozens of Soviet Army divisions pinned in the Far East.  By not going to war with the Soviet Union, and by not *ACTING* like they were going to, they let the Soviets move those divisions across the largest country in the World by rail in order to counter the Wehrmacht.


They also didn't hold their ground and re-enforce the gains they had made before the onset of winter. Had Hitler not been kill-hungry and tried to fight during the Russian Winter, held his ground and then broke out during the next spring, things might have been different.
 
2014-04-23 01:52:00 PM  

Speaker2Animals: Probably not a good idea, modmins, to greenlight a 9-day-old story about a situation that changes from day to day.


There are no modmins, there is only DJ 3000. It's the only way this clusterfark of a site makes sense
 
2014-04-23 01:52:30 PM  
Ooh, the Germans are mad. I'm so scared! Ooh, the Germans! Uh oh, the Germans are going to get me! Don't let the Germans come after me! Oh no, the Germans are coming after me! They're so big and strong!
 
2014-04-23 01:54:59 PM  

Arkanaut: Ooh, the Germans are mad. I'm so scared! Ooh, the Germans! Uh oh, the Germans are going to get me! Don't let the Germans come after me! Oh no, the Germans are coming after me! They're so big and strong!


FEED ME RUSSIANS!

greekindependentnews.net

www.worldwide-military.com
 
2014-04-23 01:57:07 PM  

hardinparamedic: They also didn't hold their ground and re-enforce the gains they had made before the onset of winter. Had Hitler not been kill-hungry and tried to fight during the Russian Winter, held his ground and then broke out during the next spring, things might have been different.


In 1941 maybe. In 1942, Germany was just trying to hold on in Stalingrad but ran out of supplies. The USSR eventually completed the encirclement and they were screwed.
 
2014-04-23 01:58:00 PM  

namatad: FFS, France and Germany are talking about joining forces and mobilizing against Russia.
And so it begins.


Well they couldnt beat them on their own so guess they have to join forces to take on the bear.
 
2014-04-23 01:58:05 PM  

dittybopper: MaudlinMutantMollusk: As I recall, getting in a fight with Russia didn't work out so well for Germany last time

/just sayin'

Actually, it did work out well for them.  Until their allies the Japanese screwed them over in two distinct ways:

1. They attacked the United States, which meant that the US wasn't just a bystander anymore.  This meant billions of aid (in today's dollars) to the Soviet Union, without which they couldn't have fought effectively against the Germans.  It would have been a reprise of the Eastern Front of WWI, when the Russians had to sue for peace.


Your timeline is all fooked up.

Germany didn't invade Russia until nine months after Pearl Harbor.    The Japanese and the Russians held a strict neutrality pact for the vast majority of the war.  Russia broke it after Germany surrendered.
 
2014-04-23 01:58:20 PM  
Poland. Kuwait. Crimea.

It never ends well.
 
2014-04-23 01:59:11 PM  
They bombed Pearl Harbor.
 
2014-04-23 02:00:21 PM  
please Mr Burns, stop saying you are afraid of us.

WWIII here we come!
thanks, Putin-dude.


guess that means conscription for your already exhausted American army, eh?
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2014-04-23 02:00:45 PM  
THREE WORDS:

ZOMBIE FRANZ FERDINAND.
 
2014-04-23 02:01:35 PM  

groppet: namatad: FFS, France and Germany are talking about joining forces and mobilizing against Russia.
And so it begins.

Well they couldnt beat them on their own so guess they have to join forces to take on the bear.


Europe as a whole has spent 59 years since the end of WWII gearing up towards one thing, and one thing only: Keeping the Russians from driving them into the Atlantic off the tip of Spain.  Every piece of military equipment that Western Europe has built has been designed to fight the Russian Military and their equipment, right down to the size of the guns and width of the hull of their tanks.

NATO, as a whole, is not concerned with taking land, invading countries, or waging aggressive war on the Russians. Their entire goal and
existence is to keep the Russians, especially Russianultra-nationalists, from doing it to them.
 
2014-04-23 02:02:38 PM  

BalugaJoe: They bombed Pearl Harbor.


Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?  Hell no!
 
2014-04-23 02:02:42 PM  

Rent Party: Germany didn't invade Russia until nine months after Pearl Harbor. The Japanese and the Russians held a strict neutrality pact for the vast majority of the war. Russia broke it after Germany surrendered.


Only after Japan sortied into Russia and realized they couldn't handle Russian armor. Had they persisted, though, maybe Zhukov never escapes his exile to the east because of his early victory at Khalkhin Gol, and isn't available to save Stalin and the USSR at Stalingrad.
 
2014-04-23 02:04:40 PM  
And the Faroe Islands will win after the dust settles, just because the rest of Europe will forget they're there.
 
2014-04-23 02:04:58 PM  
"Heil Merkel" just doesn't have the same ring to it.
 
2014-04-23 02:05:01 PM  
kick his ass, seabass.
 
2014-04-23 02:05:31 PM  
Kind of ironic this is happening about 100 years after the outbreak of WW1.
 
2014-04-23 02:05:43 PM  

AngryDragon: "Heil Merkel" just doesn't have the same ring to it.


Your German court summons is in the mail.
 
2014-04-23 02:06:40 PM  
yea, i guess The Peace was getting old for the boys..........


after all, only 'Murica is allowed to invade a Nation anytime it feels like it.
 
2014-04-23 02:07:30 PM  

Rent Party: dittybopper: MaudlinMutantMollusk: As I recall, getting in a fight with Russia didn't work out so well for Germany last time

/just sayin'

Actually, it did work out well for them.  Until their allies the Japanese screwed them over in two distinct ways:

1. They attacked the United States, which meant that the US wasn't just a bystander anymore.  This meant billions of aid (in today's dollars) to the Soviet Union, without which they couldn't have fought effectively against the Germans.  It would have been a reprise of the Eastern Front of WWI, when the Russians had to sue for peace.

Your timeline is all fooked up.

Germany didn't invade Russia until nine months after Pearl Harbor.    The Japanese and the Russians held a strict neutrality pact for the vast majority of the war.  Russia broke it after Germany surrendered.


uhhhhh
Germany invades Russia, June 1941.
Japan attacks Pearl Harbor, Dec 1941
 
2014-04-23 02:09:39 PM  

Rent Party: Your timeline is all fooked up.

Germany didn't invade Russia until nine months after Pearl Harbor.


Operation Barbarossa: 22 June 1941
Pearl Harbor: 7 December 1941

What the hell are you babbling about?
 
2014-04-23 02:11:50 PM  
This thread needs moar tank porn.

upload.wikimedia.org

upload.wikimedia.org
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-04-23 02:13:13 PM  

HMS_Blinkin: Rent Party: Your timeline is all fooked up.

Germany didn't invade Russia until nine months after Pearl Harbor.

Operation Barbarossa: 22 June 1941
Pearl Harbor: 7 December 1941

What the hell are you babbling about?


I'm farkin' babbling, man!
 
2014-04-23 02:13:13 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: As I recall, getting in a fight with Russia didn't work out so well for Germany last time

/just sayin'


Aaah, but this time the UK and US are on their side. They ain't just whistlin' Dixie.
 
2014-04-23 02:13:30 PM  
Germany might just know a thing or two about war in Europe. And Hawaii, after they bombed Pearl Harbor.
 
2014-04-23 02:13:40 PM  
Russian better back down, or Germany gonna get out the V-2's again.
 
2014-04-23 02:14:06 PM  
Is Biden pulling strings? I thought Crimea was lost and we could only hope the Russians go no further.  Now Biden says we will never recognize the annexation.
 
2014-04-23 02:14:28 PM  

namegoeshere: Germany might just know a thing or two about war in Europe. And Hawaii, after they bombed Pearl Harbor.


I really hope this is a troll.
 
2014-04-23 02:15:09 PM  

hardinparamedic: This thread needs moar tank porn.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x637]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x524]
[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x600]


Wait - do tanks use sealed beam headlights?
 
2014-04-23 02:17:03 PM  
Meh, even more interesting is the article about the 9 jobs only available in Germany.

1 - Order Officer - (Fines for annoying petty infractions)
2 - Beer Cop - (Makes sure German Beer only contains Water, Hops, Barley)
3 - VW Tower Keeper - (Parks cars in the VW Tower and organizes inventory)
4 - Multi-lingual Memorial Minder - (Yells at people in different languages to get off the memorial stones)
5 - Oktoberfest Beer Hall Staff - (Carries beer)
6 - Nazi Crimes Compensation Officer - (Still doles out compensation)
7 - Legal Sex Worker - (Handy)
8 - Pfand Room Assistant - (Sorts bottles returned at supermarkets on other side of bin)
9 - Nudist Zone Warden - (Makes people strip if they have clothes on in a nudist zone)
 
2014-04-23 02:17:56 PM  
Any attack on a NATO nation is supposed to bring the entire alliance to defend it. And a lot of NATO nations are right on Ukraine's borders. Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, Poland. And the Baltic states on Russia's borders. Turkey as well. Any attack on them is supposed to be the same as an attack on Germany, France, the UK, Canada, or the US.

So this isn't 1914 or 1939 where the US can sit on the sidelines of a European war. It has been bound since the end of ww2 to defend its European allies.

Putin knows the Ukraine isn't in NATO, so he has more of a free hand there. Putin is too smart to risk the costs of a war with NATO, knows the NATO member states will saber rattle about his actions, but NATO has shown Ukraine isn't worth it to risk armed conflict.
 
2014-04-23 02:17:56 PM  
Don't we (the U.S.) still have a pretty heavy military presence in Germany?
 
2014-04-23 02:17:59 PM  
img.fark.net
 
2014-04-23 02:18:14 PM  

steppenwolf: namegoeshere: Germany might just know a thing or two about war in Europe. And Hawaii, after they bombed Pearl Harbor.

I really hope this is a troll.


I really, really hope your response is...
 
2014-04-23 02:18:28 PM  

dittybopper: MaudlinMutantMollusk: As I recall, getting in a fight with Russia didn't work out so well for Germany last time

/just sayin'

Actually, it did work out well for them.  Until their allies the Japanese screwed them over in two distinct ways:

1. They attacked the United States, which meant that the US wasn't just a bystander anymore.  This meant billions of aid (in today's dollars) to the Soviet Union, without which they couldn't have fought effectively against the Germans.  It would have been a reprise of the Eastern Front of WWI, when the Russians had to sue for peace.

2, They failed to keep dozens of Soviet Army divisions pinned in the Far East.  By not going to war with the Soviet Union, and by not *ACTING* like they were going to, they let the Soviets move those divisions across the largest country in the World by rail in order to counter the Wehrmacht.


Well.... while those did play a role in their ultimate downfall on the eastern front, there's a lot to be said about their fuel consumption. They failed to take the rich oil fields in the south, thus their war machine halted outside of moscow, unable to keep up with the momentum of  the blitz, not to mention that the weather was causing them to burn twice as much fuel than expected. The pause that was created was a combinationof various factors, some more than others. In terms of the US entry into the war and its effects on the Eastern Front, they were not immediate enough as the the true Western Front was opened until very late in the war. Though to be fair, once it was, their fate was sealed.
 
2014-04-23 02:18:38 PM  
I thought drone warfare has made tanks obsolete, but I don't really know
 
2014-04-23 02:19:16 PM  
 
2014-04-23 02:20:41 PM  

Rent Party: dittybopper: MaudlinMutantMollusk: As I recall, getting in a fight with Russia didn't work out so well for Germany last time

/just sayin'

Actually, it did work out well for them.  Until their allies the Japanese screwed them over in two distinct ways:

1. They attacked the United States, which meant that the US wasn't just a bystander anymore.  This meant billions of aid (in today's dollars) to the Soviet Union, without which they couldn't have fought effectively against the Germans.  It would have been a reprise of the Eastern Front of WWI, when the Russians had to sue for peace.

Your timeline is all fooked up.

Germany didn't invade Russia until nine months after Pearl Harbor.    The Japanese and the Russians held a strict neutrality pact for the vast majority of the war.  Russia broke it after Germany surrendered.


It's not farked up.

Germany invaded the Soviet Union in June of 1941, several months *PRIOR* to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa
 
2014-04-23 02:22:11 PM  
There's too many of us
 
2014-04-23 02:22:43 PM  

dittybopper: Rent Party: dittybopper: MaudlinMutantMollusk: As I recall, getting in a fight with Russia didn't work out so well for Germany last time

/just sayin'

Actually, it did work out well for them.  Until their allies the Japanese screwed them over in two distinct ways:

1. They attacked the United States, which meant that the US wasn't just a bystander anymore.  This meant billions of aid (in today's dollars) to the Soviet Union, without which they couldn't have fought effectively against the Germans.  It would have been a reprise of the Eastern Front of WWI, when the Russians had to sue for peace.

Your timeline is all fooked up.

Germany didn't invade Russia until nine months after Pearl Harbor.    The Japanese and the Russians held a strict neutrality pact for the vast majority of the war.  Russia broke it after Germany surrendered.

It's not farked up.

Germany invaded the Soviet Union in June of 1941, several months *PRIOR* to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa


Yes.  I have acknowledged my blathering, and am now moving on.
 
2014-04-23 02:24:13 PM  
Somebody's gonna make a hell of a board game out of this someday.
 
2014-04-23 02:25:14 PM  

Richard C Stanford: Kind of ironic this is happening about 100 years after the outbreak of WW1.


The whole small seemingly bullshiat incident drawing every great European power into war. Except this time if it goes down every European power is on the same side against Russia.
 
2014-04-23 02:25:49 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: As I recall, getting in a fight with Russia didn't work out so well for Germany last time

/just sayin'


They still bear a seething hate for one another.  I know this from a Russian girl I worked with a couple years ago, but it's not like it's a secret.

It's almost as bad as Kentucky and Duke.
 
2014-04-23 02:26:05 PM  
If Germany, the U.S., and Russia are all involved in a war, the odd man out historically doesn't fare too well.
 
2014-04-23 02:27:13 PM  

Amish Tech Support: [img.fark.net image 500x692]


Where is this from?
 
2014-04-23 02:27:22 PM  

Richard C Stanford: Kind of ironic this is happening about 100 years after the outbreak of WW1.


That's not what Irony means!
 
2014-04-23 02:28:06 PM  

dittybopper: MaudlinMutantMollusk: As I recall, getting in a fight with Russia didn't work out so well for Germany last time

/just sayin'

Actually, it did work out well for them.  Until their allies the Japanese screwed them over in two distinct ways:

1. They attacked the United States, which meant that the US wasn't just a bystander anymore.  This meant billions of aid (in today's dollars) to the Soviet Union, without which they couldn't have fought effectively against the Germans.  It would have been a reprise of the Eastern Front of WWI, when the Russians had to sue for peace.

2, They failed to keep dozens of Soviet Army divisions pinned in the Far East.  By not going to war with the Soviet Union, and by not *ACTING* like they were going to, they let the Soviets move those divisions across the largest country in the World by rail in order to counter the Wehrmacht.


Meth.  It's a helluva drug.
www.thefix.com
 
2014-04-23 02:28:19 PM  

hardinparamedic: AngryDragon: "Heil Merkel" just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Your German court summons is in the mail.


Let's say I'm in Moscow.  They can come get me.
 
2014-04-23 02:32:09 PM  

DocPeabody: Well.... while those did play a role in their ultimate downfall on the eastern front, there's a lot to be said about their fuel consumption. They failed to take the rich oil fields in the south, thus their war machine halted outside of moscow, unable to keep up with the momentum of  the blitz, not to mention that the weather was causing them to burn twice as much fuel than expected. The pause that was created was a combinationof various factors, some more than others. In terms of the US entry into the war and its effects on the Eastern Front, they were not immediate enough as the the true Western Front was opened until very late in the war. Though to be fair, once it was, their fate was sealed.


Even if they had taken the oil fields, the Germans couldn't compete with Soviet manpower backed up in large degree with US economic might.

Did you know that the USA, all by itself, had a higher GDP than all of the Axis nations *COMBINED*?

Of the combatants in WWII, the US accounted for nearly 45% of the combined GDP of the Allies and Axis, *COMBINED*, in 1942.  By 1944, it had risen to 47%.

Think about that for a moment.  Nearly half of the economic output of every major combatant on all sides was from the US.

Without the US, the Axis would have had a 50% economic advantage over a combined UK/USSR alliance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II
 
2014-04-23 02:32:12 PM  

xanadian: The military-industrial complex has to turn a profit, subby.  Think of all the jobs in weapons factories and in the military that would be lost if we didn't have a war.


What a crock of shiat post. This potential conflict has nothing to do with the U.S. military industrial complex and everything to do with Putin behaving like a schoolyard bully on the world stage.
 
2014-04-23 02:32:21 PM  

RobertBruce: Is Biden pulling strings? I thought Crimea was lost and we could only hope the Russians go no further.  Now Biden says we will never recognize the annexation.


De jure it's lost. De facto we will never recognize the annexation
 
2014-04-23 02:32:33 PM  
I see your tanks, and I raise you one warthog
static4.businessinsider.com
I love this image.
 
2014-04-23 02:34:26 PM  
The Germans only attacked Hawaii after the murder of Ferdinand the mule.
 
2014-04-23 02:36:14 PM  

LewDux: RobertBruce: Is Biden pulling strings? I thought Crimea was lost and we could only hope the Russians go no further.  Now Biden says we will never recognize the annexation.

De jure it's lost. De facto we will never recognize the annexation


Biden says.  Can you imagine that buffoon as POTUS?  He's a laughing stock.
 
2014-04-23 02:36:58 PM  
Um. Am I the only one remembering that the KGB sent Putin to Krautland and he loved it? (IIRC still speaks Germany.)
justice4germans.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-04-23 02:37:06 PM  

dittybopper: They failed to keep dozens of Soviet Army divisions pinned in the Far East.  By not going to war with the Soviet Union, and by not *ACTING* like they were going to, they let the Soviets move those divisions across the largest country in the World by rail in order to counter the Wehrmacht.


Well, the IJA had just had their asses handed to them at a couple of places called Lake Khasan and Khalkin Gol, so you can hardly blame the Japanese government for sticking to its neutrality pact with the USSR.
 
2014-04-23 02:37:40 PM  

Fark like a Barsoomian: speaks Germany


what the fark
 
2014-04-23 02:37:41 PM  

bdub77: I gotta be honest, I really did Nazi that coming.


i.imgur.com
 
2014-04-23 02:40:20 PM  

Marmilman: xanadian: The military-industrial complex has to turn a profit, subby.  Think of all the jobs in weapons factories and in the military that would be lost if we didn't have a war.

What a crock of shiat post. This potential conflict has nothing to do with the U.S. military industrial complex and everything to do with Putin behaving like a schoolyard bully on the world stage.


He meant Russian military-industrial complex. Obviously
 
2014-04-23 02:41:22 PM  

Rent Party: Yes.  I have acknowledged my blathering, and am now moving on.


Sorry, I missed that.
 
2014-04-23 02:41:56 PM  

dittybopper: DocPeabody: Well.... while those did play a role in their ultimate downfall on the eastern front, there's a lot to be said about their fuel consumption. They failed to take the rich oil fields in the south, thus their war machine halted outside of moscow, unable to keep up with the momentum of  the blitz, not to mention that the weather was causing them to burn twice as much fuel than expected. The pause that was created was a combinationof various factors, some more than others. In terms of the US entry into the war and its effects on the Eastern Front, they were not immediate enough as the the true Western Front was opened until very late in the war. Though to be fair, once it was, their fate was sealed.

Even if they had taken the oil fields, the Germans couldn't compete with Soviet manpower backed up in large degree with US economic might.

Did you know that the USA, all by itself, had a higher GDP than all of the Axis nations *COMBINED*?

Of the combatants in WWII, the US accounted for nearly 45% of the combined GDP of the Allies and Axis, *COMBINED*, in 1942.  By 1944, it had risen to 47%.

Think about that for a moment.  Nearly half of the economic output of every major combatant on all sides was from the US.

Without the US, the Axis would have had a 50% economic advantage over a combined UK/USSR alliance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II


Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with that point either, though manpower doesn't always mean winner. But yes, the US could essentially out produce anyone of the time. We already had won one of the most important aspects of war, the logistics war. BUT if the Germans had successfully secured the oil fields, we might have seen a much different result on the Eastern Front.

Like I said, Germany's failure in the war was the perfect storm for loosing. So many things went wrong so fast that their fate was pretty much sealed early in the war. Sadly, that didn't stop them from fighting it.

/Funny how times change and stay the same
 
2014-04-23 02:42:28 PM  
Also, for anyone who cares, Russian backed terrorist mayor of Slavyansk has kidnapped an American Journalist (Simon Ostrovsky of Vice News) and is currently holding him hostage. farking outrageous.
 
2014-04-23 02:47:33 PM  

This text is now purple: hardinparamedic: They also didn't hold their ground and re-enforce the gains they had made before the onset of winter. Had Hitler not been kill-hungry and tried to fight during the Russian Winter, held his ground and then broke out during the next spring, things might have been different.

In 1941 maybe. In 1942, Germany was just trying to hold on in Stalingrad but ran out of supplies. The USSR eventually completed the encirclement and they were screwed.


They meant to be encircled. It was a previous successful strategy as opposed to the tactical withdrawal.

The millitary problem for USSR would be that they would have to such a pocket to deal with.

In 1941 that tactic worked out brilliantly for the Germans, in 1942 the red air force were efficient enough to hamper supplies being delivered, and the size of the pocket was much larger.

---

They should have broken out when it was clear that it wasn't sustainable.
 
2014-04-23 02:48:30 PM  

LewDux: Marmilman: xanadian: The military-industrial complex has to turn a profit, subby.  Think of all the jobs in weapons factories and in the military that would be lost if we didn't have a war.

What a crock of shiat post. This potential conflict has nothing to do with the U.S. military industrial complex and everything to do with Putin behaving like a schoolyard bully on the world stage.

He meant Russian military-industrial complex. Obviously


I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. The context of the second sentence of his post indicates that he was not referring to the Russian military industrial complex -- unless he is Russian himself (which he isn't).
 
2014-04-23 02:49:01 PM  
Charge of the Light Armored Brigade

/since all this Crimea crap was already done 150 years ago
//maybe do it again October 25th
 
2014-04-23 02:51:20 PM  
It's all just talk until some emo thug from Australia starts gaining popularity with the socialist workers unions.
 
2014-04-23 02:52:35 PM  

SuperChuck: Rent Party: dittybopper: MaudlinMutantMollusk: As I recall, getting in a fight with Russia didn't work out so well for Germany last time

/just sayin'

Actually, it did work out well for them.  Until their allies the Japanese screwed them over in two distinct ways:

1. They attacked the United States, which meant that the US wasn't just a bystander anymore.  This meant billions of aid (in today's dollars) to the Soviet Union, without which they couldn't have fought effectively against the Germans.  It would have been a reprise of the Eastern Front of WWI, when the Russians had to sue for peace.

Your timeline is all fooked up.

Germany didn't invade Russia until nine months after Pearl Harbor.    The Japanese and the Russians held a strict neutrality pact for the vast majority of the war.  Russia broke it after Germany surrendered.

uhhhhh
Germany invades Russia, June 1941.
Japan attacks Pearl Harbor, Dec 1941



Some folks experience time in forward, some in reverse.  Don't be so picky.
 
2014-04-23 02:52:58 PM  
 "It cannot be, seven decades after the end of the second world war and 25 years after the end of the cold war, that we start changing borders based on ethic, linguistic or religious factors."

Au contraire! This is exactly why borders should be changed. The middle east is so farked right now because the colonists more than 100 years ago drew arbitrary lines in the sand without such regard.
 
2014-04-23 02:54:09 PM  

Richard C Stanford: Kind of ironic this is happening about 100 years after the outbreak of WW1.


Let's just hope all the Archdukes stay out of sight for a while.
 
2014-04-23 02:55:38 PM  

INeedAName: Richard C Stanford: Kind of ironic this is happening about 100 years after the outbreak of WW1.

That's not what Irony means!


Okay, but it's still kind of funny that a hundred years after the start of the First World War it looks like we might be on the verge of starting part three. It's funny in a sad way.
 
2014-04-23 02:56:39 PM  

HMS_Blinkin: Rent Party: Your timeline is all fooked up.

Germany didn't invade Russia until nine months after Pearl Harbor.

Operation Barbarossa: 22 June 1941
Pearl Harbor: 7 December 1941

What the hell are you babbling about?


Let him go.
He's on a roll...
 
2014-04-23 02:58:31 PM  

Marmilman: xanadian: The military-industrial complex has to turn a profit, subby.  Think of all the jobs in weapons factories and in the military that would be lost if we didn't have a war.

What a crock of shiat post. This potential conflict has nothing to do with the U.S. military industrial complex and everything to do with Putin behaving like a schoolyard bully on the world stage.



Putin's audience is the Russian populace.  The US/European response has been exactly what he wanted all along, I'm pretty sure.
 
2014-04-23 03:00:57 PM  

Marmilman: LewDux: Marmilman: xanadian: The military-industrial complex has to turn a profit, subby.  Think of all the jobs in weapons factories and in the military that would be lost if we didn't have a war.

What a crock of shiat post. This potential conflict has nothing to do with the U.S. military industrial complex and everything to do with Putin behaving like a schoolyard bully on the world stage.

He meant Russian military-industrial complex. Obviously

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. The context of the second sentence of his post indicates that he was not referring to the Russian military industrial complex -- unless he is Russian himself (which he isn't).


But that would mean that e DNRTFA, which I find extremely hard to believe
 
2014-04-23 03:01:31 PM  

Marmilman: xanadian: The military-industrial complex has to turn a profit, subby.  Think of all the jobs in weapons factories and in the military that would be lost if we didn't have a war.

What a crock of shiat post. This potential conflict has nothing to do with the U.S. military industrial complex and everything to do with Putin behaving like a schoolyard bully on the world stage.


There has been some talk about the west messing around in Ukraine prior to the presidents ouster. So it is possible that this situation was accelerated by the US and Western allies sowing the seeds of rebellion in yet another country to place a pro-western  government in charge.

It has happened before and is generally the reason we get involved in armed conflicts these days. That isn't to say the former President of Ukraine wasn't a criminal but there seems to be a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes
 
2014-04-23 03:04:57 PM  

MooseBayou: I see your tanks, and I raise you one warthog
[static4.businessinsider.com image 850x637]
I love this image.


I find it hard to believe there are any portions of that plane you can't step on or stomp on or hit with a hammer at will...
 
2014-04-23 03:05:09 PM  

hardinparamedic: Arkanaut: Ooh, the Germans are mad. I'm so scared! Ooh, the Germans! Uh oh, the Germans are going to get me! Don't let the Germans come after me! Oh no, the Germans are coming after me! They're so big and strong!

FEED ME RUSSIANS!


If there's one thing history has taught us, it is that when Germany there is going to be a war, there is definitely going to be a war.
 
2014-04-23 03:07:17 PM  
He's going to start WW3. And it's going to end very, very badly. I get the impression of Putin that MAD doesn't really phase him. If he can't have what he wants, no one can.

I really should move away from the DC/Annapolis area...
 
2014-04-23 03:08:59 PM  

kindms: Marmilman: xanadian: The military-industrial complex has to turn a profit, subby.  Think of all the jobs in weapons factories and in the military that would be lost if we didn't have a war.

What a crock of shiat post. This potential conflict has nothing to do with the U.S. military industrial complex and everything to do with Putin behaving like a schoolyard bully on the world stage.

There has been some talk about the west messing around in Ukraine prior to the presidents ouster. So it is possible that this situation was accelerated by the US and Western allies sowing the seeds of rebellion in yet another country to place a pro-western  government in charge.

It has happened before and is generally the reason we get involved in armed conflicts these days. That isn't to say the former President of Ukraine wasn't a criminal but there seems to be a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes


My understanding was that the people wanted closer ties to the rest of Europe, the president then pushed a bunch of laws through nixing that and tying them more closely with Russia, and people got pissed.

While I wouldn't be shocked if there was some under the table stuff, it seemed like the people were pretty clear in what they wanted, and then got screwed.
 
2014-04-23 03:11:12 PM  

hardinparamedic: Arkanaut: Ooh, the Germans are mad. I'm so scared! Ooh, the Germans! Uh oh, the Germans are going to get me! Don't let the Germans come after me! Oh no, the Germans are coming after me! They're so big and strong!

FEED ME RUSSIANS!

[greekindependentnews.net image 660x445]

[www.worldwide-military.com image 850x567]


JG 73 "Steinhoff" for great justice! Spent a cold week there some years ago. But seriously, an Eurofighter is too expensive to risk.
 
2014-04-23 03:11:19 PM  

LoneDoggie: MooseBayou: I see your tanks, and I raise you one warthog
[static4.businessinsider.com image 850x637]
I love this image.

I find it hard to believe there are any portions of that plane you can't step on or stomp on or hit with a hammer at will...


Those parts are only optional anyway.

www.aircraftresourcecenter.com

/Hotter than the GAU-8 after firing for 1 second
 
2014-04-23 03:13:26 PM  

SurlyNerd: hardinparamedic: Arkanaut: Ooh, the Germans are mad. I'm so scared! Ooh, the Germans! Uh oh, the Germans are going to get me! Don't let the Germans come after me! Oh no, the Germans are coming after me! They're so big and strong!

FEED ME RUSSIANS!

[greekindependentnews.net image 660x445]

[www.worldwide-military.com image 850x567]

JG 73 "Steinhoff" for great justice! Spent a cold week there some years ago. But seriously, an Eurofighter is too expensive to risk.


So it's essentially the European F-22?
 
2014-04-23 03:14:41 PM  

dittybopper: Rent Party: Yes.  I have acknowledged my blathering, and am now moving on.

Sorry, I missed that.


It's OK.   I can't complain, I'm the one that screwed it up.
 
2014-04-23 03:14:45 PM  

The Irresponsible Captain: hardinparamedic: This thread needs moar tank porn.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x637]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x524]
[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x600]

Wait - do tanks use sealed beam headlights?


Most tanks in NATO countries have them because, unlike in the US, they are designed to be able to be moved under their own power on highways and interstates in that country. (US and most Russian tanks are intended to be moved to their disembarkation point by sea, air or rail, rather than drive there).
 
2014-04-23 03:16:37 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: As I recall, getting in a fight with Russia didn't work out so well for Germany last time

/just sayin'


Only beacuse American was providing material support to Russia in the form of trucks, food, equipment, etc. as well as America (as well as others) invading Occupied France and North Africa.
 
2014-04-23 03:19:05 PM  

hardinparamedic: Europe as a whole has spent 59 years since the end of WWII gearing up towards one thing, and one thing only: Keeping the Russians from driving them into the Atlantic off the tip of Spain. Every piece of military equipment that Western Europe has built has been designed to fight the Russian Military and their equipment, right down to the size of the guns and width of the hull of their tanks.

NATO, as a whole, is not concerned with taking land, invading countries, or waging aggressive war on the Russians. Their entire goal andexistence is to keep the Russians, especially Russianultra-nationalists, from doing it to them.


Of course the Russian people don't want to invade Europe and are afraid of NATO invading them.  Both sides leaders lie to their people to justify massive military spending.  Just the way the Central Bankers want it so they continue to profit off their economic system of usury and enslavement to debt.  It has worked for hundreds of years.  See "All Wars are Bankers wars".
 
2014-04-23 03:19:53 PM  

namegoeshere: steppenwolf: namegoeshere: Germany might just know a thing or two about war in Europe. And Hawaii, after they bombed Pearl Harbor.

I really hope this is a troll.

I really, really hope your response is...


Leave him alone, he's on a roll.
 
2014-04-23 03:24:12 PM  
Some of you folk need to look up the word "pedant"
 
2014-04-23 03:25:56 PM  

LoneDoggie: MooseBayou: I see your tanks, and I raise you one warthog
[static4.businessinsider.com image 850x637]
I love this image.

I find it hard to believe there are any portions of that plane you can't step on or stomp on or hit with a hammer at will...


And yet you can shoot the living piss outta the thing and it just keeps flying.  Damn fine aircraft.
 
2014-04-23 03:26:31 PM  

steppenwolf: namegoeshere: Germany might just know a thing or two about war in Europe. And Hawaii, after they bombed Pearl Harbor.

I really hope this is a troll.


i think it was an "animal house" reference.
 
2014-04-23 03:29:36 PM  

genepool lifeboat: There's too many of us


Nice name you got there.

/Blame it on the middle-class!
 
2014-04-23 03:32:17 PM  

flynn80: Of course the Russian people don't want to invade Europe and are afraid of NATO invading them.  Both sides leaders lie to their people to justify massive military spending.  Just the way the Central Bankers want it so they continue to profit off their economic system of usury and enslavement to debt.  It has worked for hundreds of years.  See "All Wars are Bankers wars".


Of course! Geopolitics are able to be so grossly simplified, it's just OBVIOUS! Money is the only manipulating factor in everything!

You left out which group the nefarious "bankers" belong to.
 
2014-04-23 03:35:30 PM  

ferretman: MaudlinMutantMollusk: As I recall, getting in a fight with Russia didn't work out so well for Germany last time

/just sayin'

Only beacuse American was providing material support to Russia in the form of trucks, food, equipment, etc. as well as America (as well as others) invading Occupied France and North Africa.


Thank God for the Americans.  They saved the world from the Nazis, invented pretty much all the coolest stuff (internet included).  I know it's cool to hate on them, but everywhere I look I see McDonald's, Papa Johns, and everyone watching American movies, while wearing American brands, while saying how they don't like America.

USA!  USA!
 
2014-04-23 03:35:47 PM  
Hail Hydra!


/no wait....
 
2014-04-23 03:39:16 PM  

Rent Party: dittybopper: MaudlinMutantMollusk: As I recall, getting in a fight with Russia didn't work out so well for Germany last time

/just sayin'

Actually, it did work out well for them.  Until their allies the Japanese screwed them over in two distinct ways:

1. They attacked the United States, which meant that the US wasn't just a bystander anymore.  This meant billions of aid (in today's dollars) to the Soviet Union, without which they couldn't have fought effectively against the Germans.  It would have been a reprise of the Eastern Front of WWI, when the Russians had to sue for peace.

Your timeline is all fooked up.

Germany didn't invade Russia until nine months after Pearl Harbor.    The Japanese and the Russians held a strict neutrality pact for the vast majority of the war.  Russia broke it after Germany surrendered.


The Japanese attacked Russia twice....getting crushed and suing for peace both times.
 
2014-04-23 03:40:24 PM  

hardinparamedic: flynn80: Of course the Russian people don't want to invade Europe and are afraid of NATO invading them.  Both sides leaders lie to their people to justify massive military spending.  Just the way the Central Bankers want it so they continue to profit off their economic system of usury and enslavement to debt.  It has worked for hundreds of years.  See "All Wars are Bankers wars".

Of course! Geopolitics are able to be so grossly simplified, it's just OBVIOUS! Money is the only manipulating factor in everything!

You left out which group the nefarious "bankers" belong to.


In fairness, if you look for it, you can find money as the major motivation behind pretty much every conflict ever.  Money/Wealth/Power - but it's all basically the same.
 
2014-04-23 03:41:45 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: Thank God for the Americans.


While I know you're being sarcastic, but the only thing that allowed the Russians to win WWII in Europe was the massive influx of lend-lease agreement materials, equipment, resources and weapons while they executed what was - at that time - one of the largest and most technologically challenging industrial base relocation efforts in the history of the industrialized world.

The United States also kept the UK alive until the end of the Africa offensive.

We may not have done all the fighting and dying, but we did a lot of the manufacturing.
 
2014-04-23 03:41:54 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: ferretman: MaudlinMutantMollusk: As I recall, getting in a fight with Russia didn't work out so well for Germany last time

/just sayin'

Only beacuse American was providing material support to Russia in the form of trucks, food, equipment, etc. as well as America (as well as others) invading Occupied France and North Africa.

Thank God for the Americans.  They saved the world from the Nazis, invented pretty much all the coolest stuff (internet included).  I know it's cool to hate on them, but everywhere I look I see McDonald's, Papa Johns, and everyone watching American movies, while wearing American brands, while saying how they don't like America.

USA!  USA!


                                                               img.fark.net

 s2.quickmeme.com




AND TAKE MY MONEY




www.my-favorite-coloring.net

 
2014-04-23 03:43:45 PM  

Fark like a Barsoomian: Amish Tech Support: [img.fark.net image 500x692]

Where is this from?


I found it on some random stumbleupon web site. It's all death metal and shiat.
 
2014-04-23 03:45:04 PM  

Amish Tech Support: Fark like a Barsoomian: Amish Tech Support: [img.fark.net image 500x692]

Where is this from?

I found it on some random stumbleupon web site. It's all death metal and shiat.


i.imgur.com
 
2014-04-23 03:45:56 PM  
I feel it's only fair to post a few of these if we're going to have a tank thread.

ecache.ilbe.com

www.defencetalk.com

upload.wikimedia.org

media.moddb.com
 
2014-04-23 03:47:24 PM  

hardinparamedic: flynn80: Of course the Russian people don't want to invade Europe and are afraid of NATO invading them.  Both sides leaders lie to their people to justify massive military spending.  Just the way the Central Bankers want it so they continue to profit off their economic system of usury and enslavement to debt.  It has worked for hundreds of years.  See "All Wars are Bankers wars".

Of course! Geopolitics are able to be so grossly simplified, it's just OBVIOUS! Money is the only manipulating factor in everything!

You left out which group the nefarious "bankers" belong to.


They're with the Lizard People
 
2014-04-23 03:50:01 PM  

miniflea: I feel it's only fair to post a few of these if we're going to have a tank thread.

[ecache.ilbe.com image 850x553]

[www.defencetalk.com image 850x638]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x546]

[media.moddb.com image 850x603]


Ah, NATO Tank food. :)
 
2014-04-23 03:50:48 PM  

AngryDragon: hardinparamedic: AngryDragon: "Heil Merkel" just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Your German court summons is in the mail.

Let's say I'm in Moscow.  They can come get me.


Momentarily.

This whole thing is really creating quite a führer.
 
2014-04-23 03:51:26 PM  

miniflea: I feel it's only fair to post a few of these if we're going to have a tank thread.

[ecache.ilbe.com image 850x553]

[www.defencetalk.com image 850x638]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x546]

[media.moddb.com image 850x603]


The last one looks self-aware.  Nightmare inducing.

It's ... like ... he's ... LOOKING ... RIGHT ... AT ... ME !!!!!
 
2014-04-23 03:51:28 PM  

Fark like a Barsoomian: Um. Am I the only one remembering that the KGB sent Putin to Krautland and he loved it? (IIRC still speaks Germany.)
[justice4germans.files.wordpress.com image 850x480]



It would stand to reason that an Imperialist would hate other Imperialists.

Just wait until Japan redoes their Constitution to be more aggressive.  Let the party begin!
 
2014-04-23 03:51:41 PM  

hardinparamedic: groppet: namatad: FFS, France and Germany are talking about joining forces and mobilizing against Russia.
And so it begins.

Well they couldnt beat them on their own so guess they have to join forces to take on the bear.

Europe as a whole has spent 59 years since the end of WWII gearing up towards one thing, and one thing only: Keeping the Russians from driving them into the Atlantic off the tip of Spain.  Every piece of military equipment that Western Europe has built has been designed to fight the Russian Military and their equipment, right down to the size of the guns and width of the hull of their tanks.

NATO, as a whole, is not concerned with taking land, invading countries, or waging aggressive war on the Russians. Their entire goal andexistence is to keep the Russians, especially Russianultra-nationalists, from doing it to them.


As a former RCT driver/radio operator, 1ADTR, based in Bunde, West Germany '88 - '90...

This!
 
2014-04-23 03:54:27 PM  
I just won't feel the same unless Germany is on the other side of WWIII. It's like that one sequel to Halloween that was about computers or whatever and Michael Myers wasn't in it. Lame.
 
2014-04-23 03:57:26 PM  
Like, c'mon...they invented world wars so that the French could fight everybody, but they didn't even get to do anything the second time! Don't take zee Germans away from us!
 
2014-04-23 03:59:56 PM  

MooseBayou: I see your tanks, and I raise you one warthog

I love this image.


Why does every war thread have to have somebody jacking off to the warthog in it??  I'm pretty sure everyone agrees they are great.  DOn't you guys ever get tired of it?
 
2014-04-23 04:07:02 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: As I recall, getting in a fight with Russia didn't work out so well for Germany last time

/just sayin'


Russia had the US's help last time. This time we will be on Germany's side.

/just sayin'
 
2014-04-23 04:09:55 PM  

spawn73: This text is now purple: hardinparamedic: They also didn't hold their ground and re-enforce the gains they had made before the onset of winter. Had Hitler not been kill-hungry and tried to fight during the Russian Winter, held his ground and then broke out during the next spring, things might have been different.

In 1941 maybe. In 1942, Germany was just trying to hold on in Stalingrad but ran out of supplies. The USSR eventually completed the encirclement and they were screwed.

They meant to be encircled. It was a previous successful strategy as opposed to the tactical withdrawal.

The millitary problem for USSR would be that they would have to such a pocket to deal with.

In 1941 that tactic worked out brilliantly for the Germans, in 1942 the red air force were efficient enough to hamper supplies being delivered, and the size of the pocket was much larger.

---

They should have broken out when it was clear that it wasn't sustainable.


Come now man, even Hitler was smart enough to know that's bollocks.
 
2014-04-23 04:14:35 PM  

steppenwolf: namegoeshere: Germany might just know a thing or two about war in Europe. And Hawaii, after they bombed Pearl Harbor.

I really hope this is a troll.


Stick around. Eventually it's like, 'oh yeah, that again.'
 
2014-04-23 04:17:23 PM  
I haven't seen anything that suggests that any of the major European powers (like Germany) have made any increases to their defense budgets have they? They just make quotes like this: "Russia is apparently willing to let tanks cross European borders." In the hopes that SOMEBODY will do something.

/so today we sent troops from the 173rd Airborne to Poland
 
2014-04-23 04:17:42 PM  

This text is now purple: spawn73: This text is now purple: hardinparamedic: They also didn't hold their ground and re-enforce the gains they had made before the onset of winter. Had Hitler not been kill-hungry and tried to fight during the Russian Winter, held his ground and then broke out during the next spring, things might have been different.

In 1941 maybe. In 1942, Germany was just trying to hold on in Stalingrad but ran out of supplies. The USSR eventually completed the encirclement and they were screwed.

They meant to be encircled. It was a previous successful strategy as opposed to the tactical withdrawal.

The millitary problem for USSR would be that they would have to such a pocket to deal with.

In 1941 that tactic worked out brilliantly for the Germans, in 1942 the red air force were efficient enough to hamper supplies being delivered, and the size of the pocket was much larger.

---

They should have broken out when it was clear that it wasn't sustainable.

Come now man, even Hitler was smart enough to know that's bollocks.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demyansk_Pocket

I'm just relaying German tactics to you, and the resoning for why it was used.

It wasn't bollocks at all, but it it failed.
 
2014-04-23 04:19:40 PM  

This text is now purple: spawn73: This text is now purple: hardinparamedic: They also didn't hold their ground and re-enforce the gains they had made before the onset of winter. Had Hitler not been kill-hungry and tried to fight during the Russian Winter, held his ground and then broke out during the next spring, things might have been different.

In 1941 maybe. In 1942, Germany was just trying to hold on in Stalingrad but ran out of supplies. The USSR eventually completed the encirclement and they were screwed.

They meant to be encircled. It was a previous successful strategy as opposed to the tactical withdrawal.

The millitary problem for USSR would be that they would have to such a pocket to deal with.

In 1941 that tactic worked out brilliantly for the Germans, in 1942 the red air force were efficient enough to hamper supplies being delivered, and the size of the pocket was much larger.

---

They should have broken out when it was clear that it wasn't sustainable.

Come now man, even Hitler was smart enough to know that's bollocks.


"The successful defence of Demyansk, achieved through the use of an  , was a significant development in modern warfare. The pocket demanded an inordinate response on the part of the Soviets, stalling offensive actions elsewhere. Its success was a major contributor to the decision to try the same tactic during the. Battle of Stalingrad"

I should have included that quote in the Weeners.

I don't think people click the links. So, sorry for the double reply.


All the same, the reason for Germany to use the tactic was sound. But reality had changed.
 
2014-04-23 04:21:23 PM  
QFTA:

This includes withdrawing troops from the Ukrainian border, lowering gas prices and using moderate language.

Now let's see. Which one of those is really the most important thing. The thing that if it was done, the other two could be forgotten.
 
2014-04-23 04:26:06 PM  

Doc Batarang: I just won't feel the same unless Germany is on the other side of WWIII. It's like that one sequel to Halloween that was about computers or whatever and Michael Myers wasn't in it. Lame.


If it makes you feel better I'm sure a few GIs will get into a bar brawl with a few Germans
 
2014-04-23 04:29:24 PM  

dk47: MooseBayou: I see your tanks, and I raise you one warthog

I love this image.

Why does every war thread have to have somebody jacking off to the warthog in it??  I'm pretty sure everyone agrees they are great.  DOn't you guys ever get tired of it?


Nah, they just switch hands
 
2014-04-23 04:32:50 PM  
Russia is not going to make an overt move in Donetsk etc like in Crimea. Ukraine is not going to invade Donetsk (or, if they do, the Kiev government's military will be defeated). Donetsk may or may not declare autonomy/independence (any of these three results- no declaration, declaration of autonomy, declaration of independence- will be effectively the same in practice). The war is over. See also: Abkhazia.
 
2014-04-23 04:33:03 PM  
All I know is that if we continue down this path, Euro 2016 is going to be a VERY interesting tournament!
 
2014-04-23 04:37:48 PM  
rebuild the wall!
 
2014-04-23 04:38:50 PM  
DAS IST RRRRACIST!!
 
2014-04-23 04:41:12 PM  

natas6.0: rebuild the wall!


"Mr. Gorbachev...."

Where is Zombie Reagan when you need him. Surely by now all the urine and feces left on his grave will have re-energized his rotting flesh and he will return to us, wide-awake, sentient and a defender of the free world.

/while nibbling on the occasional cerebellum
 
2014-04-23 04:45:11 PM  

MooseBayou: LewDux: RobertBruce: Is Biden pulling strings? I thought Crimea was lost and we could only hope the Russians go no further.  Now Biden says we will never recognize the annexation.

De jure it's lost. De facto we will never recognize the annexation


You have that the wrong way round, surely. In fact, Russia has annexed Crimea; legally, it shouldn't have.

Biden says.  Can you imagine that buffoon as POTUS?  He's a laughing stock.

Were you asleep from 2001-2008?
 
2014-04-23 04:49:23 PM  

MooseBayou: I see your tanks, and I raise you one warthog
[static4.businessinsider.com image 850x637]
I love this image.


While badass to be sure, the engineer in me loves this one:

www.temporalnexus.net

Take a look at that "Maximum Threat Anti-Armor Configuration."  Those are AGM-65 Mavericks, -K or -Ls... 17 of them.   Each one can defeat a tank by itself.
The GAU-8 30mm cannon also rains explosive death at 70 shells per second that can kill a tank with a half-second burst as well, and it carries 1,350 rounds of that.

This aircraft is a ravenous tank-eater.

/what a beauty
 
2014-04-23 04:53:01 PM  

LewDux: But that would mean that e DNRTFA, which I find extremely hard to believe


Inorite!??

;)
 
2014-04-23 04:56:58 PM  

spawn73: This text is now purple: spawn73: This text is now purple: hardinparamedic: They also didn't hold their ground and re-enforce the gains they had made before the onset of winter. Had Hitler not been kill-hungry and tried to fight during the Russian Winter, held his ground and then broke out during the next spring, things might have been different.

In 1941 maybe. In 1942, Germany was just trying to hold on in Stalingrad but ran out of supplies. The USSR eventually completed the encirclement and they were screwed.

They meant to be encircled. It was a previous successful strategy as opposed to the tactical withdrawal.

The millitary problem for USSR would be that they would have to such a pocket to deal with.

In 1941 that tactic worked out brilliantly for the Germans, in 1942 the red air force were efficient enough to hamper supplies being delivered, and the size of the pocket was much larger.

---

They should have broken out when it was clear that it wasn't sustainable.

Come now man, even Hitler was smart enough to know that's bollocks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demyansk_Pocket

I'm just relaying German tactics to you, and the resoning for why it was used.

It wasn't bollocks at all, but it it failed.


Difficulty:

The Red Army was 4 times larger, was advancing through loose Romanian skirmish lines across unbroken sunflower fields and was at the German HQ within 60 hours of starting.

The Wehrmacht controlled one airfield and was skirmishing at the borders of it, and required 3x the supplies as Demyansk -- which itself had pushed the Luftwaffe to 100% transport capability.

Also -- there was no viable relief plan.

The only survivors were a Romanian panzergrenadier division who saw their chance and broke out before the western ring was closed.

6th Army's only hope was a breakout.
 
2014-04-23 04:58:29 PM  

ThrobblefootSpectre: It's all just talk until some emo thug from Australia starts gaining popularity with the socialist workers unions.


Australia? You are either very dumb or you are an auto-correct victim.

/I get your point though
 
2014-04-23 05:06:12 PM  

Marmilman: Also, for anyone who cares, Russian backed terrorist mayor of Slavyansk has kidnapped an American Journalist (Simon Ostrovsky of Vice News) and is currently holding him hostage. farking outrageous.


Why, what an excellent opportunity for Delta to perform a little field exercise...  thanks for the just cause, insurgent pieces of shiat.

But remember, we should listen to the majority 18% in Donetsk who want to secede and join Russia, they speak for all the people and they're all reasonable statesmen who just need to be heard.  Those people nobody recognizes who came to help?  Long-lost relatives, who all shop at the same outfitter.
 
2014-04-23 05:08:11 PM  
Fark like a Barsoomian:

Amish Tech Support:


Where is this from?

The Grim Reaper is from Metropolis by Fritz Lang

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cag6CSo-g9c
 
2014-04-23 05:12:03 PM  

This text is now purple: spawn73: This text is now purple: spawn73: This text is now purple: hardinparamedic: They also didn't hold their ground and re-enforce the gains they had made before the onset of winter. Had Hitler not been kill-hungry and tried to fight during the Russian Winter, held his ground and then broke out during the next spring, things might have been different.

In 1941 maybe. In 1942, Germany was just trying to hold on in Stalingrad but ran out of supplies. The USSR eventually completed the encirclement and they were screwed.

They meant to be encircled. It was a previous successful strategy as opposed to the tactical withdrawal.

The millitary problem for USSR would be that they would have to such a pocket to deal with.

In 1941 that tactic worked out brilliantly for the Germans, in 1942 the red air force were efficient enough to hamper supplies being delivered, and the size of the pocket was much larger.

---

They should have broken out when it was clear that it wasn't sustainable.

Come now man, even Hitler was smart enough to know that's bollocks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demyansk_Pocket

I'm just relaying German tactics to you, and the resoning for why it was used.

It wasn't bollocks at all, but it it failed.

Difficulty:

The Red Army was 4 times larger, was advancing through loose Romanian skirmish lines across unbroken sunflower fields and was at the German HQ within 60 hours of starting.

The Wehrmacht controlled one airfield and was skirmishing at the borders of it, and required 3x the supplies as Demyansk -- which itself had pushed the Luftwaffe to 100% transport capability.

Also -- there was no viable relief plan.

The only survivors were a Romanian panzergrenadier division who saw their chance and broke out before the western ring was closed.

6th Army's only hope was a breakout.


As you are now aware, I am familiar with history as well.

I was just explaining you the reasoning behind why Germany choose this strategy.

Germany had the the opportunity to breakout after it became apparent that it was not sustainable, but probably on a combination of Goering assuring Hitler that his Luftwaffe could sustain it, and Hitlers paranoia/pride, it didn't happen.

Paulus was a farking coward, he should just have done it when the relief army came close. Yet whilst he was fine with sacrificing houndreds of thousands of German soldiers lives, he himself surrendered after being promoted to Field Marshall, despite the clear expectation was that he was to commit suicide.

And lived a pleasant life ever after (can't recall if he settled in East-Germany, or the Soviet Union).
 
2014-04-23 05:15:21 PM  
What an nasty mess.  On the other hand, it sure is pleasant sitting here in front of my keyboard shooting the shi@t about some potentially violent brouhaha I don't have to deal with nor take part in.
 
2014-04-23 05:18:17 PM  

MooseBayou: miniflea: I feel it's only fair to post a few of these if we're going to have a tank thread.

[ecache.ilbe.com image 850x553]

[www.defencetalk.com image 850x638]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x546]

[media.moddb.com image 850x603]

The last one looks self-aware.  Nightmare inducing.

It's ... like ... he's ... LOOKING ... RIGHT ... AT ... ME !!!!!


Who says he's not?

www.helma.us
 
2014-04-23 05:25:02 PM  

MooseBayou: I see your tanks, and I raise you one warthog
[static4.businessinsider.com image 850x637]
I love this image.


I see your slow flying artillery platform and raise you this:

gamingtrend.com

Lots of stuff that works well against an undersupplied, poorly trained Iraqi Army or guerillas with small arms isn't nearly as effective when you have to fight a country with an economy and modern equipment.
 
2014-04-23 05:36:13 PM  
Because the last time the Germans visited Russia, it went so well for them.

www.davidwarnerfilm.co.uk
 
2014-04-23 05:37:13 PM  
Seraphym:
The GAU-8 30mm cannon also rains explosive death at 70 shells per second that can kill a tank with a half-second burst as well, and it carries 1,350 rounds of that.

This aircraft is a ravenous tank-eater.

/what a beauty


During the 1st Gulf War, the air wing attached to my carrier was one of the last that had separate squadrons for air superiority and close air support (read that as "F-14 and A-6 squadrons") rather than F-18's for everything.   I could always tell who was flying what simply because the F-14 guys were hating it as there was nothing for them to kill, while the A-6 guys were having the time of their life blowing up every damn thing they could see.

Close air support is the shiat.
 
2014-04-23 05:38:53 PM  

anuran: MooseBayou: I see your tanks, and I raise you one warthog
[static4.businessinsider.com image 850x637]
I love this image.

I see your slow flying artillery platform and raise you this:

[gamingtrend.com image 850x478]

Lots of stuff that works well against an undersupplied, poorly trained Iraqi Army or guerillas with small arms isn't nearly as effective when you have to fight a country with an economy and modern equipment.


Really, you're bringing air dominance fighters into this discussion?

Okay, fine, these are flying screen for the A-10s.  No, you can't see them on radar... at all.

images.dailytech.com

Your Su-33s don't get within 40 miles of them.  The A-10s still get their dinner.
 
2014-04-23 05:49:10 PM  

Seraphym: Marmilman: Also, for anyone who cares, Russian backed terrorist mayor of Slavyansk has kidnapped an American Journalist (Simon Ostrovsky of Vice News) and is currently holding him hostage. farking outrageous.

Why, what an excellent opportunity for Delta to perform a little field exercise...  thanks for the just cause, insurgent pieces of shiat.

But remember, we should listen to the majority 18% in Donetsk who want to secede and join Russia, they speak for all the people and they're all reasonable statesmen who just need to be heard.  Those people nobody recognizes who came to help?  Long-lost relatives, who all shop at the same outfitter.


I really, really wish we would do that.
 
2014-04-23 05:53:21 PM  

MooseBayou: I see your tanks, and I raise you one warthog
[static4.businessinsider.com image 850x637]
I love this image.


I see your warthog and raise you this:
deathstarpr.com
 
2014-04-23 05:54:32 PM  

anuran: Lots of stuff that works well against an undersupplied, poorly trained Iraqi Army or guerillas with small arms isn't nearly as effective when you have to fight a country with an economy and modern equipment


Too bad that country couldn't keep its troops protected from air attack when it invaded a nation with one squadron of warplanes and generally performed quite poorly in that conflict.

Russian pilots generally get 30-40% of the flight hours of their USAF counterparts on an annual basis.  If it were to ever come to blows, I think 'that stuff' would work pretty much the same way it did against Iraq.
 
2014-04-23 05:55:03 PM  

spawn73: Paulus was a farking coward, he should just have done it when the relief army came close. Yet whilst he was fine with sacrificing houndreds of thousands of German soldiers lives, he himself surrendered after being promoted to Field Marshall, despite the clear expectation was that he was to commit suicide.


A Field Marshall does not kill himself with his nail clippers.

Paulus surrendering was a giant upraised middle finger directed at Hitler.

That potential breakout was never realistic. 6th Army didn't have the fuel or the ammunition to make it, and their troops were well past the point of being capable of walking out. The ring was madness fueled by Hitler's megalomania and refusal to abandon Stalingrad. It was never a viable defense plan.
 
2014-04-23 05:56:07 PM  
The Germans could just "Putsch" them back.
 
2014-04-23 06:07:23 PM  

Rent Party: dittybopper: MaudlinMutantMollusk: As I recall, getting in a fight with Russia didn't work out so well for Germany last time

/just sayin'

Actually, it did work out well for them.  Until their allies the Japanese screwed them over in two distinct ways:

1. They attacked the United States, which meant that the US wasn't just a bystander anymore.  This meant billions of aid (in today's dollars) to the Soviet Union, without which they couldn't have fought effectively against the Germans.  It would have been a reprise of the Eastern Front of WWI, when the Russians had to sue for peace.

Your timeline is all fooked up.

Germany didn't invade Russia until nine months after Pearl Harbor.    The Japanese and the Russians held a strict neutrality pact for the vast majority of the war.  Russia broke it after Germany surrendered.


Your timeline is all fooked up too, genius.

Pearl Harbor - Dec 7, 1941
Barbarossa - June 22, 1941

Pearl was attacked five and a half months after the Germans attacked Russia. In fact, The Moscow counteroffensive was in full swing driving the Germans back when Pearl was attacked.
 
2014-04-23 06:09:36 PM  

Travis_Bickle: Rent Party: dittybopper: MaudlinMutantMollusk: As I recall, getting in a fight with Russia didn't work out so well for Germany last time

/just sayin'

Actually, it did work out well for them.  Until their allies the Japanese screwed them over in two distinct ways:

1. They attacked the United States, which meant that the US wasn't just a bystander anymore.  This meant billions of aid (in today's dollars) to the Soviet Union, without which they couldn't have fought effectively against the Germans.  It would have been a reprise of the Eastern Front of WWI, when the Russians had to sue for peace.

Your timeline is all fooked up.

Germany didn't invade Russia until nine months after Pearl Harbor.    The Japanese and the Russians held a strict neutrality pact for the vast majority of the war.  Russia broke it after Germany surrendered.

Your timeline is all fooked up too, genius.


Yes.  Yes it was.

You may note that I have accepted the beatings with courtesy and aplomb.

I should be commended for that.
 
2014-04-23 06:40:58 PM  

This text is now purple: spawn73: Paulus was a farking coward, he should just have done it when the relief army came close. Yet whilst he was fine with sacrificing houndreds of thousands of German soldiers lives, he himself surrendered after being promoted to Field Marshall, despite the clear expectation was that he was to commit suicide.

A Field Marshall does not kill himself with his nail clippers.

Paulus surrendering was a giant upraised middle finger directed at Hitler.

That potential breakout was never realistic. 6th Army didn't have the fuel or the ammunition to make it, and their troops were well past the point of being capable of walking out. The ring was madness fueled by Hitler's megalomania and refusal to abandon Stalingrad. It was never a viable defense plan.


Please don't put up any strawmen.

I'm not sure either of us are really aware of whether Hoth's relief would have worked. Regardless of what your claims is, it'll just be doubling down on your own lack of historical knowledge, or just speculation.
 
2014-04-23 06:41:29 PM  

Seraphym: MooseBayou: I see your tanks, and I raise you one warthog
[static4.businessinsider.com image 850x637]
I love this image.

While badass to be sure, the engineer in me loves this one:

[www.temporalnexus.net image 485x430]

Take a look at that "Maximum Threat Anti-Armor Configuration."  Those are AGM-65 Mavericks, -K or -Ls... 17 of them.   Each one can defeat a tank by itself.
The GAU-8 30mm cannon also rains explosive death at 70 shells per second that can kill a tank with a half-second burst as well, and it carries 1,350 rounds of that.

This aircraft is a ravenous tank-eater.

/what a beauty


Have you ever read about all of the innovations built into the aircraft's systems?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_Republic_A-10_Thunderbolt_II# De sign

"Overview" and "Durability." Every-other sentence is "holy shiat, what a good idea." The people behind this thing were farking geniuses.
 
2014-04-23 06:42:23 PM  

genepool lifeboat: There's too many of us


Gene pool lifeboat,
1. I've done my duty to keep the population under control.
2. Have you seen how gorgeous some Ukrainian women are? Can we keep them for use in the gene pool?
 
2014-04-23 06:51:17 PM  
Did you guys read the same article as I? There's nothing in there that says anything about Germany going to war or threatening war or anything close. It just says that there might be a war between the Ukraine and Russia and the situation is forcing Europe to implement (economic) sanctions against Russia.
 
2014-04-23 06:54:10 PM  

svanmeter: ThrobblefootSpectre: It's all just talk until some emo thug from Australia starts gaining popularity with the socialist workers unions.

Australia? You are either very dumb or you are an auto-correct victim.

/I get your point though


There are a whole bunch o' new folks on Fark today.
 
2014-04-23 06:57:23 PM  

namegoeshere: svanmeter: ThrobblefootSpectre: It's all just talk until some emo thug from Australia starts gaining popularity with the socialist workers unions.

Australia? You are either very dumb or you are an auto-correct victim.

/I get your point though

There are a whole bunch o' new folks on Fark today.


Maybe some of us have sobered up. Nah.
 
2014-04-23 06:58:22 PM  

Rent Party: Travis_Bickle: Rent Party: dittybopper: MaudlinMutantMollusk: As I recall, getting in a fight with Russia didn't work out so well for Germany last time

/just sayin'

Actually, it did work out well for them.  Until their allies the Japanese screwed them over in two distinct ways:

1. They attacked the United States, which meant that the US wasn't just a bystander anymore.  This meant billions of aid (in today's dollars) to the Soviet Union, without which they couldn't have fought effectively against the Germans.  It would have been a reprise of the Eastern Front of WWI, when the Russians had to sue for peace.

Your timeline is all fooked up.

Germany didn't invade Russia until nine months after Pearl Harbor.    The Japanese and the Russians held a strict neutrality pact for the vast majority of the war.  Russia broke it after Germany surrendered.

Your timeline is all fooked up too, genius.

Yes.  Yes it was.

You may note that I have accepted the beatings with courtesy and aplomb.

I should be commended for that.


Really, you have been a good sport today. You deserve a cookie. I made you one, but Zombie Hitler ate it. Sorry.

Good job anyway. It's rare here, and nice. : )
 
2014-04-23 07:03:53 PM  
namegoeshere:

I should be commended for that.

Really, you have been a good sport today. You deserve a cookie. I made you one, but Zombie Hitler ate it. Sorry.

Good job anyway. It's rare here, and nice. : )


The facts are pretty farkin' brutal, man.
 
2014-04-23 07:06:19 PM  

anuran: MooseBayou: I see your tanks, and I raise you one warthog
[static4.businessinsider.com image 850x637]
I love this image.

I see your slow flying artillery platform and raise you this:

[gamingtrend.com image 850x478]

Lots of stuff that works well against an undersupplied, poorly trained Iraqi Army or guerillas with small arms isn't nearly as effective when you have to fight a country with an economy and modern equipment.


I think a lot of people might think this upcoming war with Russia will be like their great-grandfather's or grandfather's war in WWII.

The indications are to the contrary.

b68389.medialib.glogster.com

MOAB is a joke.

What I'm afraid of is someone calling Washington DC and re-enacting Sophie's Choice by demanding the POTUS choose which US city gets Tsar Bomba'ed.
 
2014-04-23 07:12:14 PM  
You know that a modern MIRV equipped ICBM can do more overall damage than one bomber with Tsar on it, right?

Beyond a certain yield, the summative effects of an MIRV are more than a single high yield bomb.
 
2014-04-23 07:22:55 PM  

hardinparamedic: You know that a modern MIRV equipped ICBM can do more overall damage than one bomber with Tsar on it, right?

Beyond a certain yield, the summative effects of an MIRV are more than a single high yield bomb.


All I know is these weapons exist to be used. And since I live in the part of the world with a very small population density, most of the world would rather those weapons be used on me and mine rather than on them and theirs in Europe, Russia and Asia.

The delivery system really isn't important.

An interesting threat the US was really worried about was a massive tsunami created by an underwater nuclear explosion outside of NYC or some other major US city.  I suppose that threat has not diminished.
 
2014-04-23 09:45:43 PM  
Tanks are a waste in modern warfare. Just targets.
 
2014-04-23 10:06:39 PM  

Methadone Girls: bdub77: I gotta be honest, I really did Nazi that coming.

Oh god. I laughed at that. I need more coffee


You must be new... to breathing.

They better hope nothing happens in the next two years, otherwise they are in trouble.
 
2014-04-23 11:34:01 PM  

Deep Contact: Tanks are a waste in modern warfare. Just targets.


that your expert opinion there, Otacon?
 
2014-04-23 11:55:33 PM  

The Anti-Laura: Somebody's gonna make a hell of a board game out of this someday.


I don't have the space to set up my old one; the farkin' map is 40 square feet.

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2802/war-in-europe

And don't believe the bit about 360 minute playing time....
 
2014-04-24 12:03:47 AM  

Fark like a Barsoomian: Um. Am I the only one remembering that the KGB sent Putin to Krautland and he loved it? (IIRC still speaks Germany.)
[justice4germans.files.wordpress.com image 850x480]


Y'have to admire Mr Putin's skills as a statesman..
 Expertly twerking old wounds into fresh blood.

Its moves like this that put Obama & co on the ropes.
 
2014-04-24 06:01:42 AM  

MooseBayou: MaudlinMutantMollusk: As I recall, getting in a fight with Russia didn't work out so well for Germany last time

/just sayin'

They still bear a seething hate for one another.  I know this from a Russian girl I worked with a couple years ago, but it's not like it's a secret.

It's almost as bad as Kentucky and Duke.


They hate each other so much, that a few years ago prominent German defense experts advocated for inviting Russian to join NATO.
 
2014-04-24 06:05:56 AM  

hardinparamedic: Deep Contact: Tanks are a waste in modern warfare. Just targets.

that your expert opinion there, Otacon?


I guess they work great against an unarmed force.
 
2014-04-24 06:16:50 AM  

flynn80:
Of course the Russian people don't want to invade Europe and are afraid of NATO invading them.  Both sides leaders lie to their people to justify massive military spending.

Most NATO countries spend between 1-2% of GDP on their military. They would probably spend more without NATO or a similar defense treaty.
 
2014-04-24 06:19:20 AM  

JSTACAT: Fark like a Barsoomian: Um. Am I the only one remembering that the KGB sent Putin to Krautland and he loved it? (IIRC still speaks Germany.)
[justice4germans.files.wordpress.com image 850x480]

Y'have to admire Mr Putin's skills as a statesman..
 Expertly twerking old wounds into fresh blood.


...isolating Russia in international politics, costing his country billions in sanctions...

Your admiration for the fascist is noted.
 
2014-04-24 06:25:33 AM  

Dansker: flynn80:
Of course the Russian people don't want to invade Europe and are afraid of NATO invading them.  Both sides leaders lie to their people to justify massive military spending.
Most NATO countries spend between 1-2% of GDP on their military. They would probably spend more without NATO or a similar defense treaty.


... and NATO military spending as a percentage of gdp has been decreasing for decades: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS
 
2014-04-24 03:50:56 PM  

Deep Contact: I guess they work great against an unarmed force.


Real life does not work like Call of Black Honor: Modern Battlefield 1942, dude.
 
2014-04-24 09:49:52 PM  

Dansker: JSTACAT: Fark like a Barsoomian: Um. Am I the only one remembering that the KGB sent Putin to Krautland and he loved it? (IIRC still speaks Germany.)
[justice4germans.files.wordpress.com image 850x480]

Y'have to admire Mr Putin's skills as a statesman..
 Expertly twerking old wounds into fresh blood.

...isolating Russia in international politics, costing his country billions in sanctions...

Your admiration for the fascist is noted.


Three words [bolded] that you improperly apply.

Isolating? Nothing has changed in that regard, Russia has always experienced distrust, discrimination, and fear, from the west; that move has no power.

costing? Russia is comparatively independent of the world economy, can become self sufficient almost instantly. THIS buggers the hell out of Brussels and WDC.
If this ends up costing anyone it will be the West.

Admiration? Ha! I can appreciate talent in an opponent, especially if i think The US citizenry should hire him as our next President.
Why would i want that? Because most of America needs the discipline, and moral direction.
So far, Mr. Putin has shown himself to be courtly, well educated, and delivers his punches with a minimum of flailing about.

What He said to the Germans is true, that is why it stings the fark out of the West.

I am a bit disappointed there isn't anyone on the west's side that can match wits with him.
This lack of ability on the west's part is mostly due to the fact that the west is holding an untenable position, and has ulterior imperialist motives.
In fact, they spend most of their time spying and lying.
It is obvious to everyone else that the Emperor has no clothes!

If the world were polled;
they could express their unanimous, universal disrespect, and hatred for the US/UN/EU/NATO and their plans to dominate the entire planet with their one world government.

The world would be polled if H. Sapiens had an actual civilisation.
However, their holiest places are the scene of constant desecration, destruction, military strife and murder.
So, it looks like they will end up flinging feces and ripping each others genitalia and faces off; then burn whats left.

See how one man has got the world corporation by the balls?
img.fark.net
See Mr. Obama gazing longingly at his Russian guard?
 
2014-04-24 10:14:23 PM  

JSTACAT: their plans to dominate the entire planet with their one world government.


This is why the children laugh at you, Ralph.
 
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